Today. My name is bethany allen. Abrahimian. Im the china reporter at axios and im here today at Hudson Institute to speak with nuri terkel a senior fellow here at hudson about his new book which we have right here called no escape and let me first introduce nuri he is a senior fellow here. He is a lawyer. He is vice chair of the Us Commission on International Religious freedom, and he is cofounder of the wieger human rights project. He is one of the most prominent people who has been speaking out about the weeger situation that we go repression and the weaker genocide in china for years, and im thrilled today. Be able to talk to him about his book learn more about his his life story his his hard work the challenges that he has faced and what he sees Going Forward for the uighur people. So, thank you so much for joining us today nouri. Thank you very much for coming to have this conversation with me, bethany. I would first like to ask you about the book project itself. How did it get started . When did you start thinking of writing a book and how did it come to be . Thank you. If i may id like to begin by thanking my colleagues sarah here at Hudson Institute. And leadership and the support team professional staff. For sharing their knowledge and supporting my work over the year. Ive been been very pleased to have this opportunity to work with at world class scholars at hudson the idea of writing. This book has been in my mind for a long time, but i never thought that id be writing memoir early in life. In early 2019, you know very well about the frustration that many of us who work in the human rights field not getting enough attention on the the atrocities being committed in china and xi jinping china. I was presented this opportunity at the oslo freedom form to do stage. Talk to openings. Speech and in my speech i highlighted what is happening what was happening and why its happening. And what should we do about it . I highlighted the surveillance aspect that highlighted the collective punishment aspect. I also highlighted the wolf will ignorance feigning ignorance of the Business Leaders such as the ceo of walks back in and also i brought up the the olympic 1936 to make it relatable to the audience that theres so much similarities between what happened to the jewish people during the Second World War and what is happening in china today and then after the talk, i got a lot of complements and and several authors came to me and suggested that i should consider turning this 10 minutes speech into a book. So i started with that and also that was the trigger, but i also believe in the power of storytelling when you for ordinary people average people people are not closely following the politics in china like you and i usually dont see this has been happening for so long. Well, as long as i have been breathing and someone who lived through all of it both inside and outside china, i thought that the stories should be telled by somebody who had been direct and indirect victim of atrocities committed by communist china. Thats one and then two i felt that i owed today weaker community over to the world to share stories of those whose have not had the type of opportunity and platform that i had. And then finally i wanted to use this book and this opportunity to tell the world where educate the world that this is no longer about a group of oppressed ethnic religious minority in china. This is about the future. You know, what kind of feature do we want . Do we want to stop this kind of atrocities happening on worlds watch or do want to keep making empty promise that never again. Yeah. Really struck when im reading your book and i just to me because i cover this issue closely a lot of the stories that you told about the uygers who have been put in the camps, but have been able to leave until their story. I was familiar with their stories, but what was so interesting about hearing you or reading you write about them was you know them and you you dont just its not that you just met them but you you know what theyre where they grew up and you know, the culture is one that you share and because of that i felt that i could really live with them what they were experiencing and i found that to be very powerful. Another thing that i really gleaned from this was your own personal story. So i hope that you can share with everyone watching today some some information about that. We know you as a lawyer. We know you as someone whos very courageous on the international stage, but your childhood is fascinating and says a lot about the trajectory of you know, the experience of uers in china so, you know start if you can with where you were born even the building that you were born in . I you know, i never thought especially coming to the United States pursuing graduate education and becoming a lawyer and living working in Nations Capital and most importantly have to becoming american citizen. I thought that my past history particularly the way that my parents brought me to this world almost irrelevant, you know who would like to talk about tragic stories, even my clothes associates Close Friends did not know that i was born in every education camp during the height of the cultural revolution. And theres so much relevancy to todays suffering that many uers enduring for one for starters a guilt by association my mom and my my mother and my father did not commit any crime their crime to the red guards were my mom happened to be a daughter of a uighur nationalist and my dad being a cousin of or relative of somebody or individuals who migrated to the soviet union controlled uzbekistan back in the 60s, so gilbert association and also the the other aspect very similar is the way that they forced my mom to go through indoctrination like verbal abuse is physical abuses dehumanization that people in in these days been reading in the news and finally the collective punishment aspect even though thats different type of set up that the red guards used to punish and transform uighurs specifically the uighurs who are pious and you know following their way we could traditional life and intellectuals. This is also another similar. My dad is a university educated teacher who was sent to a labor camp to perform agricultural labor. When my mother was taken into the camp, she was very young a few months pregnant with me. So she gave a birth to me in the reeducation camp before while she was pregnant. She got injured so she was in cast while chess down while she delivered me, you know, my as a father of two young kids whove been to the the hospital with my wife was delivering. I know how difficult it is to even go through a normal delivery process let alone being in cast and in that environment. So this makes it very special this helped me to build a special bond with my parents. My mother is 72. Shes still in chinese control xinjiang east turkestan that we just like to call. I havent seen her since my Law School Graduation 2004, and i dont know if i will ever see her again tragically. Ill recently lost my father about a month ago when i was an official trip to uzbekistan representing you he i heard the news on my arrival that he passed away, but most heartwrenching aspect of that. I know that this was coming. I thought that i was prepared, but i wasnt what i was not prepared is the fact that i could not even a able to hold my mom when shes going through when she lost her husband of 53 years old and also that close touch gant and urim ji is about the same distance from here to new york. Its very close same, you know culture same environment and i because i got sanctioned last december by chinese regime. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you for the policy announcement by the United States government. They includes the olympic boycott additional glove max sanction entity list designation. So ive made it impossible, you know, its easy. For those of us who dont have that kind of childhood family connection, but to me with that sanction, i did not even have a basic freedom to be there for my mom and carried. My dads casket. Yeah. We can get to you know, the reasons that you that you have been separated from your parents for so long and some of the dangers you wrote. I just thought this was such an interesting thing that the the reeducation camp that your mother with and she was i think 19 years old. Yes 19 years old and just a few months pregnant when they when they took her in there. It wasnt hidden away. It was like in a city it was in just sort of in downtown kashgar. Yes, right. And so then when you know, she was eventually released you were released as a baby eventually after the cultural revolution that building was torn down and there was a Movie Theater a mall with a Movie Theater built there and you used to go there. Yeah. See movies there, right which i think is just a very interesting like way of viewing the trajectory of china at that at that time it is it is it is it is almost fascinating that you walk by building where your mother was tortured and where you were kept could not even see the natural daylight the causing a lot of healthy concerns some people even suggested to my mom that i was not going to make it. Because of the the Health Concerns that were associated with my Early Childhood life. That building was a russian built a giant building a building with a giant big windows and doors and then when they turned that into a before they turned that into a mall it was so close to the area that my uncles had shops to sell import export products. I was walking by literally almost like in a regular basis and close to the center of the kashkar the Central Square and then after that turned into mall one of my uncles ended up opening a shop in that mall. So ironic every time when we walk by mom said, oh that was the window. I tried to pick out to see my mother could see me outside the building and i was just the longing to see if your dad will walk by and arrive so i i heard that story. This is why i genuinely believe that the week was never been having a never had a chance to live like a normal human being it started with even in my own life even before i was born to this world. So this is very personal to me sometime when i share a stories of others people like to hear about my story, but the other peoples stories much more horrific heartwrenching as you as you know as a from your previous reportings, and another part of this trajectory that you mentioned is in the 1980s. There was something of a cultural flowering a brief period when kashgar where the chinese local authorities rebuilt some of the traditional things what has happened now though. Its a polar opposite when you know, this is something that i always say using whatever the platform official private. Whenever the governments respect individual rights human rights religious freedom cultural rights. You will naturally have a Stable Society naturally have a happy relatively happy population, even though theres some sort of political repression exist. Some people just willfully choose to look to other way about the political aspect. That was the life for the weaker people. So they were i was able to speak my mother language my native language, which i still do i was able to enjoy cultural and religious life following my dad to go to mosque for and when the religious holidays were permitted even if you if you do that today, you will easily get a label a religious extremism extremist as being the state employee and also underage child. Those are the things are very very normal and also this this may be a news to most people that i and i grew up in a university campus. We had some han chinese professors and they were cool, even, you know as small as not touching the food when they come to visit your house unless the host invite them to do that kind of basic respect has gone today. Its impossible to even see a parent taking the kid to a place of worship. Its gone and also the other thing that is so remarkable. I saw a cultural revival the first uigger language Publishing House was established by the state publishing textbooks today those editors who either worked at that Publishing House or editors who pablo who the authors published book through that Publishing House our languishing in the camps, so its its just its just incredibly different world and then as i wrote in the book they carved out a in area in a Chinese Elementary School to build a mausoleum for one of the most if it cant intellectuals in the turkic history yusufasajip, and this person is is known entire eurasia. And then finally they organized preservation reorganization reorganizing of the weaker Classical Music 12 will come so if if the chinese said, okay, what can we do to make it better . They should look at some of the policies that were working then because they had a little bit more reasonable leadership in beijing that turned into a genocidal region today you were talking about basically the 1980s. Yeah, right. Yeah, so tell us what changed along the way to bring us where we are today the weaker peoples fate uighur peoples live weaker peoples environment. Always have somewhat related to the global geopolitics. Were regional geopolitics. The life was okay for the weaker people even though theres a serious political repression. In the early 90s after the collapse of the soviet union after the gulf war and after the tenement square Pro Democracy Movement in beijing, i think chinas leadership promised themselves. We will not have the same type of faith as the soviets and we will not tolerate any type of political descent. So domestic, june 4th broad Democracy Movement in the late 90s 80s, and then the fall of soviet union in neighboring turkey state declaring independence made the chinese nervous as has been the case with establishment of whats originally known as shanghai but now Shanghai Cooperation Organization seo. It was established at the request of the request of the russia and china, which is a Regional Security organization today, and then they just build up this pressure both inside and outside of china created enemy in the people and then rest of it history as you know. Two things unconditional loyalty and subjugation. So the chinese to the communist party wegers way of life uigger culture identity even the physical appearance something always been treated some a threat or sign of disloyalty. The otherness has been part of the overall thinking in the leadership state propaganda and also even the society i lived in inland china for five years four years in suburb of she and one year in beijing even with my students status and and kind of gainful employment in beijing. I always treated as other even by cab drivers. So theres a systematic racial profiling that stem from the the the concept initially created by put out by social scientists china social scient. And then adopted by the ccc ccp propaganda now become a social attitude and the other pieces subjugation the the chinese tried different methods from the beginning since 1949. People should know that there was a country called east turkestan before stalin handed over to mal in 1949 after assassination after the collapse of the government resulting from the assassination of the most Senior Leadership on the airplane crash. So the they tried different method different ways and then after xi jinping took office will become a become a Supreme Leader of china the things take a dramatic change. They were initially very careful with the language. They always portray social stability ethnic harmony type of propaganda National Legal resentment and then 20152017 the narrative completely changed as you reported they used terms like no mercy rounded up. Everyone should be rounded up and theres a very little resentment within china. So the its both statesponsored. Social and racial profiling discrimination that were part of the practice for a long time that codified and and enforced through a state policy in the last several years. I think one of the one of the challenges that i feel like i face in conveying whats happening in xinjiang to wegers is that some of it is familiar at least to a western audience . Okay, religious ethnic minority in a concentration camp. We have a schema for that, you know because of the holocaust but a lot of it isnt there isnt a simple way to explain the techno authoritarianism that people who arent in camps face. Yeah and the total surveillance state you use the term i think a digital dictatorship authority. There isnt visual authoritarianism maybe starting with the digital authoritarianism if you can describe what that is what it looks like how it affects the daily lives of there and what its for we we rightly have been focusing on those who have been detained in the camps even based on the chinese own white paper 1. 3 million, uyghurs went through reeducation since 2015. Thats a Staggering Number if you add them up. And and and and these practices are still ongoing. But we often forget or ignore the life for the uyghurs outside of the camps who have been subject to surveillance in their every aspect of their lives. Iris can voice scans and this resulted in something very serious to the weaker Community Around the world. Which was the family members made a conscious decision to delete the foreign context including children grandchildren even spouses from their contacts worrying that when theyre walking down the street the mobile command machine or the Police Stopped them and check do a mobile device scan if that data scan catch something as reported by Human Rights Watch report ijop integrate joint operating platform. You will be a profile your data will be sent to the police and you could be subject to reeducation as they call it. Thats one piece the other pieces that early on they did this free medical checkup offering free medical checkup, even for people who had Health Insurance like my parents. A decent Health Insurance if i i might add to collect dna samples even one of the american medical scientists kenneths code kenneth kit at Yale Medical School use the weaker dna samples and with the help of chinese minister of public if a Public Security official at his lab here in the United States, and also the the the facial Recognition Software that also created is such a impossible living environment. For example, if you are going to your parents house or relatives house if you not previously recorded in the facial recognition database, you will not be able to allow to go in so imagine that every apartment complex have the type of doors that we see in the new york metro station with cameras. So thats one piece and then the more recently they added qr code on your doors. So they they know what kind of people they live there. And what kind of activities context that they have. So every aspect of the weekly lives have been surveilled and in the i think that the most important thing that i think people should take away from this part of the conversation, is that to the extent American Public american investors investing in chinas tech authority. Autism not realizing that this will be a bigger problem for the rest of the world to deal with as we speak there more than 80 countries around the world. Not only adopted the chinese surveillance techniques, but expending it on their own. So this is something metastasizing that people should be should be concerned because you know, this is this will affect lives of millions of people when comes to privacy, especially in the United States is americans. We love our privacy this kind of intrusive surveillance may become a new norm and other parts of the world and then the other pieces that what does that mean for democratic system democratic freedom. Are we going to be allow ourselves to have a government or Opposition Group to monitor your voting records. We may not have that problem here, but around the world it may it may be the case and also the security concern so and and this is also already been the United States that commerce commercialization of personal data without permission we have actually this is already part of our lives in here. So there are many important aspect that people need to Pay Attention to so some sometime people think that the chinese developed these techniques Surveillance Technology in xinjiang. Actually it came from the other parts of the china, but only tested with its effectiveness now being exported. This is also part of chinas global ambition using technology to expand their influence. Im very pleased and grateful for the United States government focusing on chinese tech firms this week. There was a news about Biden Administration sanctioning a Worlds Largest camera maker Security Camera surveillance camera, okay, which which has been enabling facilitating the ongoing genocide against the waiver. There was the caregas chinese caregasman who all back over back to the who came to the us just recently and part of his interesting and important testimony is he recognized the hikevision logo on the cameras that were in the mass internment camp that he was in. And you know i so thats real first person evidence of the use of hikvision cameras in in the camps and what theyre for, of course, weve seen that through government tenders. We knew that they were building them there. So thats what else have you seen from the us and and maybe other countries thats already happened. And what do you want to see that hasnt happened. Are you i interviewed. I had the pleasure to interview kaya strict matter the author of the book that everyone should read we have been harmonized. He spent a lot of time in china including a visit to xinjiang after the after the news broke out that there was something bad happening. He had something very interesting in the book, which was that most of the us hospitals schools prison system used chinese Security Camera. This is already a widespread in the United States and even in that book mentioned us embassy in kabul and now closed and one military base even in the United States using hikvision camera. The problem with this is that politicization when when those of us called the attention to this tech authoritarianism digital authoritarianism people politicize, but never forget what this entities are all about in the same book. Theres also another interesting information that each of these companies have a red fund directly related connected to the ccp leadership. That means that their Business Model the Technology Sharing even certain degree investment or connected to the ccp in in one instance. The the author mentioned that the new walk to ifly tech lobby. Theres a slogan said we rule china today. We will rule the child the world tomorrow. So thats their ambition quite a slogan. Yeah, quite a threat. Yes. Its a threat so so i think that the American People are gradually waking up because our government in biparts and spirit doing something right about this particular issue, but i worry that the Eastern CentralEuropean Countries even some western European Countries are still not really appreciating the magnitude seriousness of the problem that we dealing with. I want to get into some of a stories that you spend so much of your book on especially stories about about women you really give so much attention to what what women have suffered. Can you pick maybe one or two of the women that you wrote about and talk about what happened to them, especially as women in the camps and also outside of the camps. I had the pleasure to work with that. We were camp survivors. I could have interviewed all of them, but because of the limited space that i will have on the book i only spoke with three kalbun or zumbrat and mirugul. Kadnar is a camp instructor. He was she was assigned to teach to the detainees most horrifying thing that ive heard from her was even at her house that subject to. Various abuses even at her house. This was this the becoming family. Yes. This is part of the becoming family. Tell us about that because i think this is one of those things that maybe specialists know about but a broader audience may not because its a special kind of horror. Yes a couple of years ago. We learned about this program. Let me call it a program through a reporting done by down there and byler. It was a very extensive report essentially what the chinese has done is to send a group of chinese kadres to the homes of the weaker people to eat and sleep uninvited. Anyone can appreciate how unknowing how offensive that can be if somebody comes to your house and try to join you in your bed and join you in your meal and and importantly using your own family to spying against you. Children in this case. This is still ongoing. I interviewed zumrat, and she was also experienced this become a family program. They call them relative. They will check up on you. They come to talk to your children when youre not around and they can ask questions. Like what are you guys talk when we not at home and and honest answer by a child a children could cause a big trouble in some instance could lend you into the the camp is a question like have you seen mommy or daddy praying praying the question do they tell you to do certain things that when we run, you know, they have this thing called twofaced crime and also this Sexual Violence that ive been hearing about. This is is just simply outrageous and heartbreaking and they i profiled in a book they just specifically demand labor sexual favor when they were part of when they come to stay and the woman who are who have no male household or husbands take into the camp are the most vulnerable ones. Because they are based on the stories that i put on the book and based on other conversation that i had with the camp survivors. This is still an im gonna go and because you know, some people may object to this description, but the uighur woman traditionally historically societally perceived as a sexual object in china, and this is not only me saying the china is embassy put out the tweet a year or so ago calling weaker woman as a baby making machine after we protested they took it down. This was when sweetie and kay was was ambassador here in washington dc that you know, the embassy can put out stuff like that so you can imagine what the social concept the attitude could be to a Vulnerable Group of weaver woman my the uighur activist that i interviewed the camp survivors reminded me of the jewish woman who survived the holocaust and heard their stories and i had the pleasure to work with some Holocaust Survivors here at home and uk. Its just the mirugal zumrat. And calvin reminds reminded me of those courageous woman. Tell the world and another important aspect that i think was a conversation the we talked about the cultural revolutionary education program, but todays collective punishment has so much similarities to what the jewish people gone through us during the Second World War. For example, the fourth labor. Using the olympic to glorify the regime taking children away focusing targeting women. Theres so much similar even some up the slogans, you know, they use the term disturbingly final solution and some of the chinese docking you talk about taking the children away. Thats a reference to some of these staterun orphanages. Right . Where when both of the parent what are both of the parents are in the camps and theres this child they put them in there what they dont teach them uig or they only teach them mandarin they teach them to say i love the communist party. Im not muslim. Yeah. I mean its and theres i mean there was an estimate in the Washington Post that there were 800,000 800,000 children effect. Thats more than the people in Nations Capital the population in washington dc is about 750. Yeah. We talking about more people more kids than the population of questions. This has important. Will legal ramifications potentially right we can talk about i think the, you know creating the legal case that this is a genocide. I know under the rome statute. The forcible removal removal transfer of children from one group to another is itself alone. Yeah enough to say that its a genocide. Right . Right and the deliberate systematic prevention of natural population growth that has also been documented the other pieces in part and hold this this destruction of a group of people. So the the last two the sterilization population control and separate child separation. Were some of the most important factors for the United States government secretary of pompeo initially and then secretary blinken calling other genocide and that id like to share a story. I i was giving a talk at ucla law school. And this right around the time that the investigative reporting that youve done on leaked documents. A young student came to me and asked me if i could help to save his sister and my question was naturally what happened to your sister. He said that my mom was a very successful publisher. My dad was working with her and both of them are detained recently. Mom was transferred to a factory to perform forced labor. And then i said what happened to your sister. He said that she is with my aged ailing grandma grandmother if something happens to her and my sister will be sent to a staterun orphanage. This is just one of the many stories and then this American Life profiled a father in in istanbul who recognized his son. In a staterun orphanage propaganda material, i you know, this is one of the many cases that i personally heard interacted with its heart wrenching and what kind of people will take your children away from you. You know, this sounds like a very basic human conversation, but policymakers should ask themselves what will what will happen to them if somebody take away their children from their wives who end up recognizing and in a video a promotional video somewhere and what if your children dont recognize you and calling somebody else as a father so these kind of things keeps me awake at night specifically what happened to the weaker woman and children, you know, what can what kind of future can you have when you dont have women and children . Its very simple question and Chinese Authority the policy makers the architects no exactly what theyre trying to accomplish so it bothers me so much in personal level when people still debating whether this is genocide or not. I mean, theres even a theres a Chinese Government document or speech that refers to breaking the lineage. Its like cutting out the root and breaking the lineage. I mean, its thats just this is the point we dont want the next generation of be uiegers in a connection lineage and roots very specific. Yeah, and thats a policy. Thats a policy statement in chinas system. You dont have to have you know, like we do the think tanks picking up issues the study the debate and they dont have a congress to debate and theres no reporters to report. Theres nothing none of this is available if some chinese officials chances slogan like that it becomes a policy and we see that is exactly being implemented. Yeah. Theres you talk about the forest sterilization. And whats i mean, theres many horrifying aspects of that. Some of it is just just so just truly pointless cruelty. The woman in the book was at zumat who was 48. Yeah zoom red and coven or both of them years old forest to they both had to go undergo a forest a surgical force. Yeah sterilization at that age. Yes. Its still suffering Serious Health issues. She has been hospitalized number. Times this is public. This has been there are so courageous in these such a private matters people dont casually talk about even thursday night going to see a bbc sharing that rape that she experienced. This is all, you know, unusual circumstances, but these brave woman feel compelled to share this stories in the case of kalbunar. You know, she was not even planning to have another baby and she was already close to ef58 middleaged woman and therefore started to go through forces sterilization. Its cruel. Its in human. Yeah. I know that so the us has led a lot on this on this issue and your work has been very important in that. What are some of the specific actions weve talked about this already, but theres been a genocide designation there have been sanctions. Yeah there have been these Technology Companies put on the entities list. Theres also a very we have hardly touched on this and we need to is to talk about forced labor and supply chain issues and then you know, the the new the the act that was passed recently the wig labor prevention act. Can you walk us through what is this forced labor . Why is it happening . And what is the us doing to try to get these products out of Global Supply chains this the issue of the very issue that you raised makes this issue even more relatable relevant to general American Public where American Peoples interest even pockets. The force labor is not is not something new to the weaker people. I you know, we talked about my early life. In this in the city kashkar where was born and raised . The chinese authorities use the uighurs to perform forced labor in irig building irrigation system picking cotton. So the cotton trade picking cotton has been part of weaker life for a long long time. Theres an entity called Xinjiang Production construction core. Xpcc the xpcc controls much of the cotton fields water resources, and they have been enslaving the weber people in the last 40 50 years. This has been ongoing what is new is the fact that this has become a industrial skill practice in recent years traditionally those Global Brands had their plant in coastal cities and because of this poverty of Alleviation Program that people give Chinese Government a lot of credit for also created labor shortage that labor shortage compelled some businesses to move their assembling line to xinjiang theres a plenty of natural resources. They dont have to transport. And plenty of Agricultural Products and now the dirty call that was used to build solar panels and also its a geographically convenient location if you have a market if you want to have a Market Access to eurasia there is it theres a over 600 miles in a National Border a lend access to your asian market. Its its a huge market and those are the reasons that they move their manufacturing site to that part of the country. What is new is that . The weaker force labor been being used in literally everything, you know, including the ppes that we use to save lives even to this day the New York Times reported that practice a couple of years ago and also the Beauty Products using weaker womens hair one shipment only i asked my female friends to come up with a ballpark estimate how much how many womens head need to be shaved to make a 13 tons of Beauty Products or wigs . No one can give me any accurate figure. That was only one shipment and you mentioned in here that the women in the camps had their heads shaved. Yes, and i know that that particular shipment came from a factory. That was very close to a detention facility. So the idea here is this has such echoes of the holocaust. Yes, the women are put into the camps their heads are shaved and now that hair is being sold profit. Yeah, and so its targeting Africanamerican Community calling it black gold and targeting a American Woman with a darker hair preference. So so those and then the solar panel my environmental friends always said, oh we need to save the planet what cost so these are the things that very new, you know, i remember when i was in law school helping to edit workers manual for one of the sneaker makers who had a plant in the northeast china. This was like a legit business. They were paid even less than the others, but now its a full scale industrial scale as slavery that we deal with so the United States government for its credit done a lot of wros and now this legislation. I i command the leadership in the us congress and also President Biden should deserve some credit for signing it in such a short period of time this this piece of legislation become law literally in three weeks it took a lot of time for us to get there, but it was pretty quick my being sanction has something to do with this as well really the timing if you look at the timing things happen around that time the olympic boycott additional globe max sanction, and then the signing this law into a bill to law or enactment of the week or force labor prevention act. Its its its interesting timing to say the least. So what this law does is to push the responsibility over to the business to prove to the United States that theyre not using forced labor unless you know, otherwise they will they will presume to be using forced labor. I think its a smart strategy because you know in china theres a enforced internal migration even if youve managed to stop theyre forced labor practices through legislation legal means legal tools in xinjiangel. They can move it to a neighboring province. So so with this kind of you know, pushing it the task over to the businesses, i think its its one of the most effective ways. We shall see this law is going to be well go into force. Well starting to be implement. Next month later, june 21 to be exact but businesses may find a way to ask for waiver exceptions. Because the Business Community still have not been a community has not been really up to the plate yet. I give you one example in shortly after putting invaded ukraine it took about two three days for the International Businesses to either pull out or suspend their Business Practices to this day if you count late 2016. Its been almost six years that the advocates who tried to stop this practice have not been able to make one company us company to make a pledge then that there will not use or stop sourcing from xinjiang one of few of them tried and they end up face end up being subject to state sponsored boycott in china. So this this is a very complicated work but this if this law is implemented it will address some of the lingering issues in the us china trade since china joined the wto, and i dont think that you know, were on the earth that you will be able to solve the supply chain problem if you dont address this sometime those Business Leaders with lobbyists who pushing against trying to convince the congress and the Current Administration going hard on china on this particular issue will create more supply chain, but we cannot handle something just you know, pushing it to the side or cover it up. This has to be dealt and also i think this is also very important in the us eu relationship as well. I was pleased that matter was taken to g7 in the last g7. They did not issue joint communicate, but it was included in a statement saying that we will push back against for slave. I never thought that the weaker issue will be with would make it to g7 conversation. So the europeans have not figured out that you china comprehensive agreement and investment is on hold. Who knows what will happen to it, but i i hope that the europeans australians the japanese the canadians birds have something similar upon a place so this will be a global effort. Otherwise, we will not be able to stop this modern day. Yeah, i when i first heard that this law was you know, people are drafting it putting it together. I thought i thought the idea behind it was really brilliant because at the time, you know, you talked to cbp, you know, which is the Office Customs and Border Protection the office thats tasked with prevent preventing. Its already against the law for people to you know to bring products made with forced labor into the us, but the onus at that time was on this tiny office, you know that totally understand these really complex supply chain audits that you have to do with china and to put the onus onto the company. I mean makes it at least makes it theoretically possible right to win a force us law as it already exists. You raise an important point not only within have specific legal tools mandate that would address this issue. Were so understood our agencies Government Agencies would talk about that particular office with about 15 people. Whole United States government has about 15 people were tasked to do this and the United States remained remained to be the largest export destination for xinjiang products along with some European Countries. Yeah, and and so they basically werent almost werent doing it, you know relying on media reports to do it for them, which is understandable. So, i mean, i think thats a really great sign. Its still very complicated and difficult because on the chinese side on the, you know, Chinese Government authorities have made it next to impossible to do actual audits on the ground audits. So anyway, its a whackamole a bit. Yeah. Absolutely. This is why i always emphasize the role of the consumers in the United States, you know, you have to create a an uncomfortable environment for both policy makers and Business Leaders. That they can adjust ignore. This is the case of this buildup. Weve been talking about we were with some reluctance in some officials, even we read that there was some pushback even some lobbying the us chamber of commerce to this day didnt think it was a good idea to have this law so so consumers need to create an environment that our policy makers forced to do the right thing and also consumers also could have a huge role to play to make it costly for the businesses to continue this modernday slavery. Otherwise, you know, how do you what else . I mean, theres one example during the winter olympics. I dont know who promoted this idea initially it could be those three jewish leaders who published and advertisement New York Times calling for a boycott of nbc viewership watching the game. The viewer should drop half. Run the games thats significant. I dont know whats going through the the executive at nbc but it was a huge thats a consumer active and thats a role. I mean, we live in a free source side people have a choice not to watch not to buy things. When i know that one effect of you know that, you know being able to genocide. Was that it was really difficult for . Advertisers for you know brands to be as to have as many to run as many ads being so excited about the olympics because its because you know everyone knew that there was this, you know, both there was a genocide right speaking of that important point that you mind me something this genocide olympic was sponsored by companies implicated already in the foresleep practices. So and in its not that difficult, you know, some of them came to testify in congress. They want even acknowledge that theres something bad happening in that part of the world. It is just unconscious and more importantly. This is unamerican because you know, we have a history cotton trade history. This country country has a history with slavery. We have a history of not listening to people who are facing genocidal campaign. So if this does not wake up, i dont know what will weigh what well and finally i wanted to remind something that the the inaction by the state parties to the Genocide Convention making this law and making this treaty almost irrelevant. As of 2019 i think i believe theyre over 150 state parties of the Genocide Convention under the Genocide Convention article one of the Genocide Convention state parties obliged. To call it out stop and punish. So those eight countries in parliaments including our own only did what they supposed to do as a baby step number one. So nothing, you know, i am very pleased with the progress that this cause predict in particular. Were able to make in the United States with zero financial investment, you know passing these kind of major laws require a lot of resources and lobbying effort. Im very pleased that the congress did this without anyone investing a penny and also im very pleased that theres a bipartisan policy responses by Previous Administration and then Current Administration, but what is missing is global . Effort what is missing is a coherent plan. I dont think that anyone had put out a plan to stop this genocide like the way that the International Community came together tried to push back against putins invasion in ukraine. Yeah, i remember what i found to be so incredibly disheartening, although it was the appropriate action was when the International Olympic committee when russia invaded ukraine called for countries to cancel sporting events with russia. This was right coming off the heels with the beijing olympics went so many people have been urging the ioc to take action regarding chinas genocide and they had been totally silent that i was it was just it was the juxtaposition of that was very hard to see and then un secretary general gutierrez, he went to ukraine. Yeah said the older right thing and to this day he has not said a word not a single thing. He has never mentioned. Yes. Thats right. Whats actually thats right. Hes never so the hypocrisy thats best. Yeah this play. Well that that transition i think into the the last thing that i want to talk about which is the Global Implications of the weaker genocide the weaker genocide matters, no matter what the dignity of winger people survival of the winger. People is important enough for everyone in the world to care about but because of chinas position their ability to reshape in their you know, the Chinese Communist parties desire to reshape global institutions, it has even added weight and importance in terms of the you know, what kind of world the 21st century going to be. What are the ways that the Chinese Government has been trying to i dont know make the world safe for authoritarianism make the world safe for genocide for whoever wants to commit it. Thats an important question that everyone should be talking about as a alluded earlier one might thing these horrific experiences that the wiggers have been gone through is another human rights headache human rights problem. I think people are mistaken. It was a human rights concern about five six years ago, but now what the ccp doing is doing is Touching Every aspect of our lives whether it be a moral obligation historical concerns of regrets technological aspect of our lives or the products that we use at home. Or Global Leadership health of our democratic system our privacy. Anything that you touch somewhat relates to the weaker genocide so i dont you know, one of the things that i want people to take away from reading my book is to feel hopefully that this is not only about the weakers anymore. This is about the future. So if the chinese gets away with this then this will become a new normal who you know. I personally think this is too much of a problem for the world in the last 10 years. Um, im very critical of our international system. Theres no one that we can go and get this address through International Organization entities today in just last 10 years alone. Weve seen three genocidal campaigns the yazidis first and then the rohinga and then the wiers United States government recognized the last two as a genocide, but what is the action so if you let this go if this is a if the perpetuators suffer no cost. Reputational or otherwise we will see this again, but if you stop this the historical promise never again. The 3d obligation moral obligation or better place for the next future can be guaranteed. So this is i think this is about leadership. This is about conscience. This is about future and this is about a compassion. I you know, the Martin Luthers quote that i put it up at my oslo freedom. Speech. I think its a good way to remind the audience people sometimes feel indifferent. Its too remote unrelated different religious Group Different ethnic group the fact that the jewish people feel so attached to this cause today is because they have seen it how it ends you know, you may think that this is all another muslim people. I another you know too far, you were essential asia. Wheres but at the end of the day when it happened to you, you may not have a people to speak for you. So i i hope and this book will compel policymakers ordinary citizens to do whatever they can lending their voices initiating new responses putting in place legal tools journalists, like yourself even at a personal cause you you are one of the great examples of a china going after individuals simply for doing their job. To the right thing for a better future. I think thats a Perfect Place to end nor do you thank you for your time today and thank you for this book and the work that you have done and continue to do on this topic and thank you to all of you program. Good afternoon. Im the chief Communications Officer for the library of congress. On behalf of my wonderful colleagues, welcome to the 2022 National Book festival