Was in 2018 when you did our indepth program. I remember it well. It was a marathon and very enjoyable. I loved talking to the readers all over the country. We had talked about your books, but you have a new novel out called force. Is it historical fiction . It is historical fiction, and the historical spine of the model concerns trouble be the greatest racehorse in american racing history. He is a 19th century racehorse called lexington. Why is he the greatest horse . Ms. Brooks he was the fastest horse of his time and possibly would be the fastest worse today in the 19th century. His races were four miles long, which is like two kentucky derbys. He may still be the fastest horse who ever lived. He had the stamina, he had the heart and courage, and he had a lovely disposition. And then when he retired from the track he produced more champion horses than any other race horses racehorse has ever produced. And this is antebellum period . Ms. Brooks before the civil war, so a lot of those horses never raced, because they went to the military instead. So he would have had even more champions if it had been normal times. Also he was at the center of some very dangerous situations during the civil war as well. It was a fantastic story to tell. Is the story of lexington lost to general history but still morning still known in horse circles . Ms. Brooks in the inner horsey circles. I was astonished i had not heard of him before, so i asked people, and every time they said no, i went, yes, because this is what a novelist hopes for, is that you can rereveal something that was once well known. He was a huge celebrity in his own time. The racing press covered every beat that he took, so i was lucky in that regard, reading the racing papers of the day i could track his career in great detail, which was a wonderful thing. When he died his obituary ran over three pages of the newspaper, and they made a coffee for him, which anybody who has ever had to sadly bury a horse nose is quite an undertaking. They made him a coffin and buried him overlooking the barn, and that was appropriate. Because he was so celebrated and his fame wasnt so enduring, years later they exhumed his body and prepared his skeleton, and he was a feature at the smithsonian institution. Is he still at the smithsonian . Ms. Brooks no. That is how i came to hear about him. His fame waned to end the smithsonians Mission Change from a cabinet of curiosities to being a Scientific Research organization, and they were not interested in lexington the racehorse, but they were interested in the skeleton. He was in the hall of mammals as horse, to dog and pig. Then he was in the attic for a while in the Natural History museum. But the newlyfounded International Museum of the horse in kentucky, in lexington wanted him, because he is more than any other horse the reason that lexington, kentucky is the center of europe red breeding today. Thoroughbred breeding today. Is there with a hall dedicated to his insignificance. Your story centers around the group. Is this a fictional part of the story . Ms. Brooks as soon as i started to resort to research this story of lexington i quickly realized the absolutely fundamental and integral role of skilled black horsemen. The grooms, many of the jockeys, the trainers were extraordinary for their expertise, and the industry was based on them, much of their labor, of course, was plundered, because many of them were enslaved or formerly enslaved. I realized i could not tell the story and erase their contribution. So there is a missing painting of lexington, and it is described vividly, because it is supposed to be a wonderful painting by the artist thomas j. Scott, who also features in my book. And it is titled lexington being led out by black jarrett, his groom. As somebody who has a horse and loves horses, i know the person who has the closest relationship with the horse is not the owner, not the trainer, not the jockey, it is the groom, who is there first thing in the morning, feeding, brushing, caring for the horses almonds, and who has the strongest bond. I knew i wanted a story to center on the relationship between garrett and his horse. If you are familiar with Geraldine Brooks, we are going to give you a chance to call in and talk with you. The numbers are up on the screen. We will try to work in a few of those calls in a minute. Im getting a little bit of noise in my earpieces right now. A phone hanging up. Geraldine brooks, how long have you been working on horse . Ms. Brooks i started working on it i heard about it before i started working on it, but it took me about seven years to write it. And i apologize. Im having a bit of audio trouble here. Ms. Brooks im getting it too. With the numbers dialing . You are much smoother than i am. [laughter] you spent about seven years working on horse . Ms. Brooks this is the book that has taken me the longest to write. Some of it was the difficulties of researching the lives of the black horsemen. That was extensive. But then the story took all kinds of crazy twists and turns. It led to unexpectedly a connection with Jackson Pollock in new york in the 1950s. It led to the science at the smithsonian and learning about how bones are prepared. The labs and the incredible treasure house that is the Museum Support center in suburban maryland. What is the benefit of writing historical fiction and what is the limitation . Ms. Brooks i like to think of myself as the gateway drug to real history. [laughter] look, to me it is about finding something that is true in the historical record, where you learn something that is astonishingly interesting and unlikely and plausible, as mark twain said, to paraphrase him. Fiction is required to be plausible. Truth neednt be. If you find a truth that if you made it up nobody would believe it, follow the line of fact as far as you can. What im interested in is the stories where you cannot know everything. Because if you could, if jarrett had been able to tell his own story and if we knew all about him from his own point of view, would be for a narrative historian, devon mcculloch, but we do not know. It is in those voids i think you take your imaginative empathy to work. And when the line of fact phrase becomes too faint to follow, that is when i allow myself to think, maybe it went like this. So to try to hear the unheard, the people who did not tell their story. My guess is you had trouble with the Historical Research on the black grooms and horsemen. Ms. Brooks that was a challenge, because enslaved people, generally speaking, were not allowed to become literate. So they did not leave an account of their own lives. You can find them. You can find them, it is just that you have to look very hard. The interesting thing was that the white owners who had enslaved these men differed to their expertise. Because there thoroughbred horses were prestige and wealth for them. They wanted the best horses, and that meant they wanted the most expert in the field. You see in their letters to each other how much they put in the knowledge of the black horsemen. So, it meant that these men and they were all men, of course, at that time occupy an unusual niche in the brutal system of slavery, where they could use they could do things like travel across state lines, amass some property. Which is why many of them were able to buy their way out of enslavement. Prior to starting this segment you and i were talking and you said you had been on book tour in your home country of australia. Is a story like this popular down there . Ms. Brooks you know, australians love racing. [laughter] the whole country stops for the melbourne cup, which is the biggest horse race. It is our equivalent of the kentucky derby, although it has become controversial in recent years because of concerns about the welfare of equines and some of the practices within the racing industry, check think we have to look hard at. Too many horses are dying on the track and thrown away if they do not make it, and i think that is tragic. Having a bond with a horse that is 27 years old, some of these horses are over and done with that five and discarded, i think is a shocking tragedy. You have a horse that is 27 years old . Tell us about her. Ms. Brooks she is a mare named valentine. I keep her with my neighbors horse, who is an off the track race horse named screaming wings. He is 33 years old and he has had so much to give throughout his long life, teaching children to write. He still loves to go out on a trail ride and it is hard to stop him from thinking he is on the track. [laughter] lets take some calls. Don is in westmoreland, virginia. You are on with Geraldine Brooks. Good morning, miss brooks. Ms. Brooks good morning, don. I was calling concerning a huge horse that raised in the 1970s and 1980s. He was like 17 hands high at the shoulder and he never lost. I was wondering if his genetic line could be drawn right to lexington . Ms. Brooks i would have to look in the study books to find out, but i would not be surprised, because a lot of the really great racehorses can be traced back to lexington. That is the incredible thing. Also one of the poignant things about writing this book is, we know a lot more about the horse and the horses genealogy then we can know about the enslaved men who trained the horse. You know, who could generally trace their lineage is only back two generations. But they had memorized lineages that carried these horses all the way back to the original fourstud the rubber adds from which all resources are said to fourstud thoroughbreds from which racehorses are said to descend. When you look at the stud book you can see all the way back. What did you find out about lexingtons owner . Ms. Brooks lexington had a couple of owners and they were fascinating people. His first owner, although it is murky, and this is one of the things that go into in the novel. His black trainer owned his racing qualities, and that may have in a means of letting the black on or own a race horse, because in those days a black man was not allowed to own a resource that raced on the track. It may have been he had a black owner from the beginning, the titular owner was dr. Alicia warfield. He had been an ob gyn, although they did not call it that in those days. He actually delivered mary todd lincoln. He had the horse and was the titular owner for its First Successful races. Then it was bought by a syndicate headed by an absolutely fascinating man named richard tim burke, who owned the metairie racehorse in new orleans. He had been kicked out of west point. He had gone down the river riverboat gambler and made a fortune. And he bought lexington, and he was the one who promoted the races to the point that 30,000 people would show up in the whole city of new orleans would shut down when lexington was racing. President s came to watch the races and it was a huge celebration. Then he sold the horse to back into kentucky, to an owner who had interests in scottish estates, as well as the finest livestock breeding establishment. And that was where lexington stood stud, to such great success. He had a long life and was very well cared for, which was a good thing. Host Geraldine Brooks won the Pulitzer Prize in 2006. Cooper, bridgeton, new jersey. Please go ahead with your question or comment. Caller im just wondering, what really wanted what made you want to write this book in the first place . I am an avid reader and a curious guy. You know, out here in new jersey. [laughter] host thank you, sir. We will get an answer. Ms. Brooks yeah, cooper, i wanted to write this book i will tell you, because most young girls become horse crazy at five or 15, which is a sensible age to do that. I became horsecrazy at 50. I dont recommend taking up writing at 50, but that is what happened to me. I had an experience on a trail ride in the next thing i knew i had a horse of my own. All i wanted to think about was the horse. How to care for the horse, how to be a better writer, everything about it. I wasnt getting any work done in my writing life because i was thinking about the horse. Actually by accident i overheard the story about how this horses skeleton was being moved from the smithsonian to the museum of the horse, and i heard about the horse and his fantastically successful career, and then the twists and turns in that and what happened to him during the civil war, which is a period im quite fascinated by. I realized this was a story for me. It was the next book i absolutely had to write. Host Geraldine Brooks appeared on in depth in 2018. Spent three hours with us talking about her entire body of work. Since that point, though, you have had quite an eventful life. Ms. Brooks it was a attached fee. My husband, who some of your viewers may know from his works like confederates in the attic, he was on book to her book tour and he had a wonderful session with cspan in atlanta, and he had come to washington, d. C. , which is his hometown, collapsed in the street, died suddenly without any indication that he had a heart problem. And me and my two boys, as you can imagine, were devastated by that. It knocked us all right out of our orbits. Host i dont mean to be insensitive, but how does that change how you do your work . Ms. Brooks it took me a long time to get back to work, actually. It was about a year where i could not get the level of focus you need to engage with all of the strands of a novel that you are trying to bring together. But, you know, it was something Ruth Ginsburg had said to a journalist colleague of mine, because i used to be a journalist before i took up fiction writing. And this person had had a loss, and Justice Ginsburg said to her, you must do your work. It might not be your best work, but it will be good work and it will be what saves you. Eventually i learned that was true. This book, tony had left at the subject of this book and he had helped me with researching it, because he was a genius in the archives. And they knew i had to finish it so i could dedicated to him. And turned out that the book was the lifeboat i crawled into. Host horse is the name of geraldines latest book. Thank you fo now we are joined r and actor nick offerman. This is your fifth book. Is there a threat that connects all five . For my second book which is called gumption among other people, you interviewed Michael Pollan for a feature i was writing about him and he said your second book is your hardest. Everybody has one book i