Transcripts For CSPAN2 Nathan 20240706

Welcome. My name is grant rosen. I am the rabbi of fedex chicago and a member of the chicago chapter of jewish voice for peace. Two of the cosponsors of this evenings program. I would like to first thank and honor our events primary sponsor. As im sure many of you may know , several of the appearances have been canceled recently in the fact that we are here at all this evening is due to the principles and quite frankly, the courage of hrw and our good friends here at chicago temple. Lets show some appreciation to those that made this evening possible. [applause] we are gathering together this evening as we all know as a horrific tragedy continuing to unfold in gaza and israel. Im tempted to say that when this program was first scheduled none of us could have imagined the terrible circumstances thaty we now find ourselves. But im not so sure that that is completely true. Palestinians, their allies and numerous human rights organizations including Human Rights Watch have long been sounding the alarm that israel has been subjecting palestinians for decades to a violent regime of occupation. Leover and over, we have been warned that there could be violence, even cataclysmic violence. Tragically, that moment has now arrived. Over the past month, the horror of this violence has unfolded and many of us have been asking how could it have come to this. While our program this evening does not focus specifically on the terrible ongoing violence in gaza, i submit that the book we are about to discuss and highlight in its way offers us important insight into the current moment. On the surface, you could say that a day in the life is a story of a tragedy that apple falls one Palestinian Family living under israeli occupation. Just one story among so many. As nathans book demonstrate so powerfully as we seek to understand israels oppressive architecture occupation. We must first and foremost leunderstand the impact on every day palestinians. On parents and children. On husbandser and wives, brothes and sisters. On Community Members who live in a system of structural violence every day. An oppressive occupation that supports their attempts to live their lives simply at every turn as we all know, there is a Cottage Industry of books and articles and pieces that analyze israels occupation. In its microcosmic way, i believe this book about this one jerusalem tragedy helps us gain a much deeper and more valuable understanding than most books you will find on this subject. Those of you that have read the book undoubtedly know what i mean. In short order, nathan allows us an intimate perspective into others reality. Ultimately, unbearabled heartbreak. In the end, we walk away with a deep and invaluable understanding. Yes, we begin to understand how it all could have come to this. I have always felt that if we are ever to find our way forward through the tragic injustices that have gripped israel palestine for far too long, it will only happen by summoning up our deepest reservoir empathy for our collective humanity and the current moment when such a goal seems more painfully remote than ever, it will be booked in testimony such as this that will point the way forward for us. All of this to say, i am grateful to nathan for his book, to the sponsors of our program for making tonight possible and to all of you for being here tonight. I have been asked to let you know where the excerpts are. There back here and over there. Hopefully marked by the exit. I have also been asked, our conversation this evening should go without saying will abide by guidelines of civil discourse. We are all here. Not necessarily to completely agree withon one another, but to share with one another and be open too one another in here one another and express ourselves honestly and openly and truly be open to what nathan has to teach us. With no further ado, i will step down. I would like to turn things over to my good friend and colleague. [applause] thank you. Thank you for your exemplary leadership which is always an inspiration to all of us. Thank you all for coming out on a monday night to have this conversation with us. We gather tonighta. As bombs are dropping on gaza. The subject of the book takes us into a conversation about the region, about politics, about what is right and wrong in this moment. It does it in a very special way i will introduce both of my interlocutors here. I want to say as a preface, you know, many of us have been trained and stressed in tears about the situation and palestine and israel since october 7. On College Campuses where many of my colleagues teach it is been very difficult to have conversations. It is been very painful, emotionalea. And it is almost like rational discourse taking a backseat to what is on. I feel like this book offers an opportunity t to wait and, to lockin, to lead with our hearts open our hearts to learning about the experiences of palestinians in occupied palestine. Doing it in a way that invites us into our lives as humanity. I met nathan, actually by reading an article that he wrote that wasas a prelude to the boo. I did not know him. I did not know anyone who knew him. I wrote him an email and he responded. A year or so later when the book came out he asked to moderate this. Turns out we have many friends and comrades and colleagues in common. But that openness i think is reflected without this book is written. I am lookingdu forward t to this conversation. Let me just introduce the two people i will be talking to. Nathan as an author and journalist. Obviously an author in thela day of the life anatomy of the jerusalem tragedy. Also has published in the New York Times magazine, the guardian, the london review of books. Was for a decade they director at the International Crisis group of the arab israeli project. He also taught up our college originally from california. Now living in jerusalem. The second speaker is omar. Omar serves as the israel and palestine director at the Human Rights Watch where he investigates human rights abuses and israel the west bank and gaza. Also had several major reports including in 2021 a report called a threshold which is a 200 page report with graphic illustrations that feel the kind of context and background to the occupation into the situation we see in palestine and gaza right now. So, i want to start with nathan. You have an opportunity to ask questions at the end. I want to start with nathan and just ask you about your choice to write this book. You could have written this story with a number of entry points but you chose this particular family and the story iof a father in the tragedy abt his son and family and then you introduced us to many other issues and challenges and provocations. Why this story and what are the journeys in life are you. Thank you all for coming. This story one of them is more emotional answer which is, you know, i live in jerusalem and my work for the International Crisis group took me to the west bank, you know, nearly every day and as i was driving north from my apartment close to the walls of the old city, i would pass by an enclave that contained within it many residents of jerusalem. The enclave had to made communities in it. Refugee camp and the town. This community, you know, was surrounded by walls on three sides. The tall grayon concrete wallis separation barrier. And on the fourth side was a different kind of wall which was the wall of route 4370, more famously known as the apartheid road. A segregated road with traffic for israelis on one side, traffic for palestinians on the other in a giant wall running through the30 middle of it. You have about 130,000 People Living in this very densely populated enclave. Without a single atm, without lanes in their streets. Without sidewalks. Without playgrounds. To the city of jerusalem and getting services. So much so that people are forced to burn trash in their streets in the middle of the day and night. And, all of this is sitting in plain view just underneath the manicured grounds of the Hebrew University of jerusalem. Israels most prestigious university. From the Hebrew University of jerusalem, you can look down and you can see this enclave and you can the check point through which many parents are forced to send their children to school or go to their job. The other element that the parents in this Community Phase is the shortage of classrooms. At the time of the accident, at the center of the book, they were doing double shifts in the schools just in order to be able to teach the students. So, i would pass by this and hardly paid any mind. I would i dont think i was alone. The whole landscape of this place is everywhere. There is segregation everywhere. It was not something that i had dwelled on. And, after this tragedy occurred where a bus full of kindergartners from this community was struck by a giant semi trailer and the bus flipped over and caught fire, six children died, one teacher. All of this is happening just on the other side of this. Where there are, there is a policy of deliberate neglect. There is a neglect by israel. There is an ability of the Palestinian Authority to enter municipal jerusalem or where the accident took place. That is more than 60 of the west bank. Under full Israeli Security and administration. And, so, the people left to deal with this accident was the palestinians who live in the state of neglect on the other side of the wall and after it took place, i could not stop thinking about the parents and children of teachers who are affected by it. And i started, when i decided to write the book, i decided to reach out to everybody as i possibly could in one way or another connected to the crash from the settler who founded the settlement next to where the accident took place to one of the teachers, a bystander who heroically rescued dozens of children. Some of the social workers at the israeli hospital, and, so, answering the question that i was moved by the story of this accident, how it was emblematic of the total neglect of these hundreds of thousands of people onls the other side of the wall. I should say that also through, to enter these areas, even within municipal jerusalem, the Emergency Services require an escort by the israeli army or security forces. And, so, the fact that the Emergency Services did not arrive for a very long time was not unique to this accident. That is something that is happened many times in this area on the other side of the wall. And i saw in the story, the ability to tell the larger story of israel palestine to the jewish and palestinian characters. But i want to say that there is a different way of answering that question which was i also was driven to tell the story of something that occurs every day all over the world. I really did not want to focus on something that could be exceptional wise. So focus on something that would be the more natural subject for a work of journalism a war in gaza, an invasion of janine. A suicide bombing. What i really wanted was to show people what this system was that these people live under and what it feels like this early to live within that system. And, my frustration for years and working for the International Crisis group and doing the kind of journalism that i was doing was that the whole world would Pay Attention to this issue when there is a war in gaza. When there is a striking violence andd everyone would cal for calm. I wanted to show what that calm looked like. I wanted us to address. Com. To understand that that calm was not actually calm. It was deeply oppressive system that entailed a great deal of violence that induced violence in turn. And i wanted us to Pay Attention to that system so that we are not so we are not more horrified when we see Something Like the war in gaza. That we are also horrified when that war in spirit. Every day violence. I want you and to talk a little bit more about what thati looks like the i dont know how many people here have visited out israel palestine. Visiting occupy palestine. So, you know, i went in 2011 with an injured dennis delegation. On our delegation was a woman who had grown up on an indian shervation here as described it. A woman had grown up in the jim crowth south. What we saw a designated for all of them. Designated for me in terms of the harassment and violence that was prettyer routine and that ae palestinian hosts thought was a pretty routine life under occupation going through checkpoints being harassed just trying to go about your business so, what have we learned in readers following these dilemmas . A dilemma on that tragic day for him as a dad looking for his child. You w know, we get a sense of wt that wall represents. What occupation represents and what that violence is about. You want to describe that a little bit more. Then i want to invite you in. You documented a lot. Tell us more. s called a day in the life. Abed salam what transpires on that day. How he learns of the accident and rushes to the accident site. He has to pass eight checkpoint and tries to flag down Israeli Soldiers who refused to give him a ride up to the bus. How he arrives at the scene of the accident and all of the kids have been removed and he asks this crowd where are the kids . He is told some of them went to jerusalem hospitals. Some of them went to theas military base just a minutes up the road. Some of them went to different hospitals. And he himself have big green west bank id which does not allow him to go to most of the places that were named. He certainly cannot go to the is really military base up the road. He cannot go to hospitals in jerusalemalem or west where most of the kids are located. And we follow him attempting to find his son and sending hisow relatives from the same family of green ideas you have people with a blue jerusalem id that does allow you to enter jerusalem parts of a sense a relative go to the jerusalem hospital look for his son. On by following more than 36 hours of his life, we see this system in which she is entrapped how it works what actually means to be a green blue id holder of the worst day of your life. But what i wanted to say is the deeper theme of the book is theo degree to which the system reaches into the most intimate details of these peoples lives. And so when we learn of his back story we learn at one point he chose a marriage partner based on the color of her id because he was atjo risk of losing his b a higher paying job in jerusalem like other fellow green id holders and he chose a marriage partner just for the chance to himself get a blue id and be able to retain his job and work in jerusalem and provide for his family. There are many other examples in the book of the vast degree of control. Talk about green ids andre blue ids they share. But i want to ask omar the report you have done a number of reports but the report in 2021 is particularly compelling, powerful and relevant now and hear you talk about the level of segregation one of my big periods hearing about the past laws knowing peoples lives are regulated down to the minute details where they can do where they could go, or they could live et cetera. So tell us why its labeled apartheid . On me start by saying what an honor it is to be on. The best thing ive read in soyears highly encourage ive bn to read it. Part of the reason why its so powerful is it is in narrative form lays out the daily reality of palestinians living under israeli rule. People in moments like today think about the hot violence of carnage, slaughter, bloodshed experience. Its ach cold violence of which have been operating for decades is how it speaks too. So let me start with the west bank we put in a little bit of human rights context. The first thing i understand what they west bank a ship to population groups that lived virtually sidebyside. You have excludingas even East Jerusalem. Give nearly half a million jewish Israeli Settlers who are living the settlement settlemenr war crimes. The transfer one civilian population territory by war oroccupied by war. Living sidebyside 2. 5 milliona palestinians. These are two people might live across the streeter as they do n some areas are governed under different bodies of law commits the same offense their trade in different courts they have different Due Process Rights or to be more accurate palestinians do not have different sentences. Jewish israelis are citizens of israel they have the same idea move back and forthan freely. During her brutal military occupation. The green ids which ill explain in a minute they have limited freedom of movement. That effectively rules over their lives. Its not just about dual regime. They live in a reality and for segregation. The settlements which are built on palestinian lands i could not excessive labors bearing special special permits and all of its data for stations different freedoms movement. Jewish israelis can go back and forth to East Jerusalem and israel proper. Palestinians on the other hand need to obtain permits to enter eastst jerusalem and israel proper. Put that in perspective probably most everybody in this room fly to the airport go to jerusalem and the palestinians who might live 3 kilometers away cannot do that. Hundreds of checkpoints largely built between policy and communities that can turn a short commute to work into an hours long ordeal separates thousands of palestinians. Now that they stole the land get for illegal settlement it has reduced palestinians on the west bank has become a bunch of territorial surrounded by the large settlement. Not only that not even the resourcess that are controlled y the Israeli Government. Received by palestinians on a discriminatory basis. Beyond that the palestinians who live there the majority of the west bank is impossible to get a building permit. The west bank under exclusive control issued 100 times more demolition orders than building for palestinian. They have demolished every year hundreds of phones, schools, businesses for lacking that nearly impossible so killing arbitrary arrests. This gathering will be palestinians with a jail sentence. Peopleng is more a 10 without it possible to obtain permits. East jerusalem has many of the samean dynamics. One example if you are a jerusalem id holder that nathan spoke about, even that id you do not have nationality you could lose the id card if you married somebody moved to the west bank there is is really a lot on the books for more than two decades. It allows an israeli citizen anywhere in the world virtually and gives them legal status to live and israel but not palestinian on the west bank or East Jerusalem although israel justified this formally under the name of security. Scores of statements by saying this is about demographics. Just to come back to the question of a apartheid how to gave you he is a snapshot of the same thing about gaza and israel proper. That systematic oppression the control ofe demographics across israel and palestine is maximum land and palestinians. Very seriousio uses of the crime againstpa humanity result legal term basically means systematic p oppression by one group of people over another. By domination one people over another and would combined with inhumane acts. So basically inhumane acts, systematic oppression tends to dominate. Thats why there is consensus in the human rights movement. Its two years old knows quite relevant from palestine israel its relevant to us as americans live in the United States comesk up it your book and comes up in your report. Can you speak to in passing that. The billions the u. S. Gives in support to d israel and the dege to which u. S. Complicity is allowing injustice against the palestinians to continue . Really goodue question. When you talk about the United States role in israelti palestie the idea of being a broker or using u. S. Influence. The United States is much more than that. According to Congressional Research Service Report from earlier this year has given more than one or 50 billion in military aid to israel. The United States is probably the singular global power with the ability to dictate the outcome of events on the grounds. And throughout the history of the United States regardless of the administration on Political Parties of the nine States Government has in effect given a green light to the Israeli Government and in some cases much more than that to carry out the oppression of palestinians often being done with u. S. Government weapons, support and all the manifestations. What we have seen obvious with the Trump Administration was a more dramatic version of this. But in many cases with much more continuity with longstanding u. S. Policy in a fundamental break from it. What we are seeing on the last couple of years under the Biden Administration even the last month has reinforced a basic idea. The most basic thing when there is a crisis like this but respecting International Law ending unlawful attacks, calling for accountability for those abuses calling for civilians have access to water, electricity, medicine, food. The basic sort of things people need to survive it. The United States position has quite frankly been shameful theres no other word to used to describe it. They have rightfully condemned the heinous loss attack on october 7. Youvek not seen more condemnation issued about the war crimes the Israeli Government is continuing to commit in the gaza strip. Human rights watch is have a very clear position for a long time. Forms of military assistance in arms includes a business engagement, bilateral engagement many may have seemed to the issued against the Israeli Government. Its the real riskmm u. S. Weapos will be used to commit abuses and there is a risk when its done knowingly and significantly it risking complicity. Is actually going to add an anecdote related to what you had said prior. Which was describing the vulnerability of people in jerusalem, palestinians in jerusalem of having that residency revoked. This comes up in 1967. And half of it was not. If you actually go inside of it as you did many times over the last several years the part Israel Considers in its sovereign territory on the part that is not been annexed. It is one area of gross neglect. Just giving one example, when i drive on the nerve main road that the single is not wide enough for my car to pass at the same time as a bus moving the opposite direction. Which causes enormous congestion i literally rolled down my window and pull in my side mirror and inch around to pass and this is how wondered 30,000 people are living day in and day out. What i wanted to mention about this and having your residency revoked some members of the family have green ids some have blue ids. And his brother is married he has agreed id and is married to a woman who has a blue ids. And he himself is not allowed inside municipal jerusalem he has a green ids not allowed to go in. What they do is they maintain two apartmentsrm they have one apartment that is formally inside municipal jerusalem and the half of the on claim because israel will send inspectors to make sure they are residing within the borders of municipal jerusalem even though the enclave is totally neglected ann the missive policy basically does not go and accept as a policing force. That his wife is really residing in this apartment. As soon as their inspectors come to the checkpoint people start calling one another on the phone and they recognized the car, theny of these people look like and they t say inspectors are on their way. People rush to their other home and they enter and they pretend they been sitting there for a long time and the inspectors enter the home lift up towels and clothes and look for dust and say you dont really live here. And if they find she doesnt really live there they can take over her brood jerusalem id her ability to enter the rest of the city, the heart of jerusalem to visit family membersth were on e other side of the wall but she could never see them again without having to apply for a permit. That is the kind of day in fear but all of these people are subjected to. Orcs are telling that story madison was going to work on the Welfare Rights Movement in this invasion of intimate spaces of social workers when theres in the country they commend and see the husband is there if the man is in the house and rummage through their things and all of that. Just to prove as prescribed protocol. So you mentioned again and he really hoped to be here he was on the part of october 7 happen. What has that relationshipk been like as youve written this book about the pain in his life, what kind of trust was built . What did you learn and how have you grown in the journey of writing about this mans tragedy in jerusalem . So unfortunately for all of you i had to return home early. He was on tour with pete we were in the uk and left together. The situation in the west bank now in his community is reminiscent. The communities are closed down. The mobility for palestinians is highly restrictive. There is a huge spike in violence and forced displacement of palestinians since the beginning of 2022, just prior to october 7 the un at the end of october 7 put out a report saying since the beginning of 2022, over 1000 palestinians have been forcibly displaced in the west bank. Entire communities move. Most describe a slow motion ethnic cleansing inside the central strip of the west bank. And since october 7 alone that was already a huge number, 1000 and a little less than two years. Since october 7 alone, more than 800 more have been forcibly displaced in the west bank. The old processes are being accelerated. Under the cover of this war in gaza. And he felt he had to rush home to be with his family. Almost every Palestinian Family in the west bank, every extended family whose ruling on higherpaying jobs in the settlement. Those jobs basically dont exist right now. They are not letting palestinians come to work. Even a son who works in ramallah was told by his boss you cannot come to work there is too much violence it is unsafe for you to drive on the road right now. So he felt he couldnt both green and blue id holders can exit through and all it takes is to soldiers to put up a gate at these two exits and that is it youve trapped 130,000 people and itt is like that throughout the west bank. And so he returns to be with his family. He cannot be with you tonight. It is a very intimate process unlike any other reporting i sphave done. I spent much of the last four years of my life. I was not just a matter of reporting together. I am deeply grateful to him for trusting me i was very nervous about how he would respond to the book. Its very uncommon for a writer of any nonfiction Magazine Article or book to share their work with the subjects before it is published. Its basically never done. And in this particular case because of how much of it was shared with me i really was considering doing it. In the end i decided not too. I was too worried i was compromised their work my having to litigate all kinds of aspects of the books would not share it with them until it was a hard cover. It was at the end of august. I had been losing sleep over how he would respond to the book and he called being about two days after receiving it from told me he had read just the first part. The first part deals and he called me and said everything here is true but theres a lot more details than i thought there would be. [laughter] and he said everyone in this community is going to come after me. He is revealing eight a sisterinlawwho betrayed hims never confronted in person who lives next door. He is talking with the Biggest Political Party in the west bank and not so favorable terms. He is revealing many, many intimate details of his life and his familys life. And so i said to him im really sad, concerned to hear you say that. Please just finish the book lets talk after you finished it. And so he did. I myself could not sleep for the next few nights. Called me back and said i understand what you are doing. Whats in the book. And i think it is important and i accept what you are doing and im ready to face the consequences. Stillll friends . Its a good segue to invite you to read a small section from the book if you will. Nathan is a wonderful writer too. So the part im going to read now is at the scene of the crash where a woman, her name is huda she is a doctor and work so thaf that Un Refugee Agency for palestinian. She has been helping to rescue many children from this burning bus. There is anotherhe character who is mentioned here its a teacher who together with a man the two of them went inside of this burning bus repeatedly to pull kids out. So i will begin here. Nearly 20 minutes had passed since their staff and come upon the burning bus. Flames and smoke were still pouring from the smashed windows. The driver was directing traffic keeping it open path for the evacuees and telling drivers of oncoming cars to turn back. The crowd had grown so large they could no longer see the driver and the teacher they had pulled from the front of the bus. She was focus on the children. Gently carrying them with one of the un nurses to the car as it stopped at the site. Many of the drivers had volunteered to transport burn victims and stood ready to race to the nearest excess of a hospital which, for most of them was in ramallah. The hospitals in jerusalem were far better but only those with blue ids could reach them. A few of the drivers did have blue ids and some took off in the direction of the hospital in jerusalem. The majority, those with green ids when in the opposite direction along the flooded road. Nearly all of the children have them brought off them, bus who d by now gone in and out of the flames several times. Saw the teacher and his partner in the rescue her leg was heburning. By the time he got to her was too late, she was gone. He carried her from the bus and placed her on the ground her nephew watch for man covered her with his coach. And all of this he had felt nothing. Not even a somewhat in the cool crowd wrapped his arm impinged and one of the nurses yelled to him his jacket was on fire for you shouted back that it was noe the nurse to put it out and he went to climb back into the bus if you children still inside were no longer alive. The last boy facing down crouched on the frame of the seat. He was still wearing a backpack which he held to pick the boy up. Stepping out of the bus for the final time broke out weeping shouted he should have saved more somehow not a hair on his head was burned. Said unmoving in shock and was mesmerized by the flames. Who did turn to the noose beside her and said her face was black and street. She realized she must look the same. They were soaked, bone weary there is nothing more for them to do when a palestinian ambulance finally arrived most of the injured children had already been evacuated huda did not even notice it. The bus was still crackling with frames those shouting and commotion. Not a single firefighter, Police Officer or soldier had come. Put itre wanted to follow the children. She found her team and they returned. Was still inside inconsolable started dropping off everyone at home as huda called her out and confirmed most of the children rent ramallah and she found her supervisor he did not understand the magnitude of the accident and demanded the team turn around were he would cut their pay. Would it refused and said he should cut just her salary no one elses. After stopping for a quickow shower huda set off to the hospital taking the social worker with her. When they got there or to spread huda had been at the crash a great many parents and other relatives sought her out asking whether shed seen up boy with a spiderman backpack, a girl with her hair and yellow ribbons. Huda told them all the same thing. The children have been covered in soot she could not tell what they were wearing. Going from room to room she checked on their injured children and sleep in the bus she felt something nagging at her she was sure the kindergartners have been silent at least early in their ordeal. Now at the bed of one girl whod asked her why that was . Why she heard no sound . We were so scared we saw the flames we thought we had died. We thought we were in h. Very powerful we think of tragedies happening to children that is a sad segue to its happening right now in gaza. The events of october 7 were tragice and lives were lost. U. S. Media has told the sum of the stories of children who were killed young people the Music Festival that were killed but we do not get the full humanity how palestinians are now being bombed and ethnic cleansed in gaza who are being forced to leave their homes and in the pathways of which they leave are beingeo bombed. And half the people and cause our children. Children like his son. So, tell us a little bit about how we make sense of the siege of gaza today . We could also say what herb is happening in terms of voices being raised all over the world a thousand people from sydney to london to d. C. , to new york. But give us an insight if you will. Mentioned as much as we have all rang the alarm bell a month ago be seeing a reality of 10,000 people in gaza killed, 4000 children killed. The scale of devastation we have seen i would not have been able to fathom. When you talk about the reality in gaza it is just hard to describe ino words. You have twopoint to Million People caged in a 25 by 7mile open air prison. Axteen years there has been generalized ban nobody in, nobody out unless you follow a narrow band of humanitarian exemption. Most has never left gaza because the majority actually at least half of children jordan have lived all or most of their lives under this crushing closure. We have a situation in the small area where the Israeli Government has relentlessly for one month the heavy artillery on the population. You have noo a safe place to go in gaza andnd no safe way to get anywhere. This vomiting has reduced and we have seenwe interviews we have done, video footage reducedbl entire blocks and large neighborhoods to rubble. You talk to people in gaza and they tell you whether i live is purely a chance. That is the scale of bombardment. 10,000 people hospitals have been struck. Schools have been struck. Refugee camps have been struck. You have a situation in which the human rights and incendiary that is inherently indiscriminate with populated areas. Because it causes a life longbu suffering and excruciating burns to people in the surrounding area. With the conventional bombs that have been dropped. And be its a bombardment which is hard enough to fathom 1. 5 Million People being displaced, nearly half have been destroyed or damaged. In addition to that the Israeli Government has cut electricity and water to the entire civilian population. Twopoint to Million People. Israel flipped a switch right now have electricity and water to the population but it is denying to punish an entire civilian population for heinous acts carried out by hamas fighters that is a work crime under International Law. It also blocked all but a trickle of humanitarian aid food, medicine, from reaching the civilian population is also a war crime print International Law allows you to monitor but not entirely block aid and starvation as a weapon of war. That is also work crime. Got a population thats without water, without food, without medicine under relentless environment. In addition the Israeli Government ordered 1. 1 Million People to leave their homes. No safe place to go. No safe place to get anywhere. Theyve treated the areas that remain. As a free fire zone. Well meet document the suit covered a report last week the people with disabilities who are not able to evacuate. Heran patients at hospitals, olr people. Their actions suggest following. All of this is happy in isolation the Israeli Government has said, they have articulated they are punishing but this should be accountability because those were heinous crimes. But that is that with the Israeli Government is talking about. They are talking about punishing the entire population. Holding them responsible from israels president , to the defense minister throughout the government. They are signaling to the world they commit mass atrocities that is what were seeing on the ground today. We hear about the spiderman backpack. And you think about that story i think about the 4000 kids who also had backpacks. People who are found in the rubble. Israel is also apparently cuts communication. Once you to imagine what this means just imagine for a second periodie there are hundreds of people buried under the rubble including children. When you cut communications and means of phone call cannot be made to a First Responder that may be able to pull a kid out of the rubble. So kids will die because its apparently a deliberate policy. Thats what we are dealing with as we speak today. Its difficult to even fathom. And as bad and ugly as it is, there are signs that are further mass atrocities in the world must act. You want to add m anything . It is sobering. It is sobering. The good news the other day, some good news dick durbin did step forward and called for a ceasefire but the fact so many have not even done that. Whatever your political analysis is the seems to be a bottom line. So i want to share something that i shared through others. Will segue to questions after that. Most will know its a massive mobilization in washington on november 4 many people we know went groups with the lack lives of blacks for palestines scholars with social justice. And it offered a statement of some reflections i want to share with you. And then we will open it up for questions. A blackck feminist people of gaa and the struggle for free palestine. Who are myf people in this crucible moment of war and genocide . As we witnessed the process of ethnic cleansing unfolding in the world. They fleet theirom homes by the Evacuation Route prescribed by the new bombers. Who are at my people like my friends cousin gives birth in total darkness in gaza city incubators are shut down as the powers cut off at hospitals. Note food, no water, no fuel just bombs. Whole buildings are leveled. Apartments were family cook meals, children played games and girls dance with their friends are all gone now. Theres a hole in the heart of refugee camp. The whole is a bomb which is unknown and unnamed bodies are entombed. A broken man cradles his daughter his little body is also been broken. Woman oils for the loss of her son. The body parts have been found. Who areme my people in this crucible moment of violence and discretion is born a black woman became a palestinian my beloved sister she interrogates identity and belonging in challenges to o be bigger than that. Who are your people he would ask visitors and strangers . Who claims you and who do you claim in this world . Most importantly who do you stand with in times of crisis . Nd despair we do not be searches to newer people are in this moment. If i choose to stand on the side of freed up my people are the best people all over the world people are suffering under it varied and violent forms of injustice and oppression from birmingham to bethlehem, from the prison in northern israel to the prison in central illinois. I claim as my people all those who are standing up to occupation and dispossession. Patriarchy antisemitism and asaba phobia, environmental and authoritarianism. My people are this true colors and Freedom Fighters of thehe world though speaking truth to power in dozens of languages. Silent vigils by the organizations on street corners in barcelona tokyo, madrid sent note to war and occupation. The policy and Freedom Fighters sink liberation of palestine would also include them. Courageousof voices inside the halls of power refusing to be silenced. We are with you because youre with us. Passionate jewish protesterspast down Grand Central station in new york city and today the statue of liberty insisting never again means never again for anyone. [applause] so, we will open it up for questions for nathan and omar. People raise your hand i think we have a floating microphone. Over going to borrow a microphone and really share. I would like you to make your questions so synced. I know we have a lot of feelings about this and you have been listening patiently. It really appreciate your discussion. I was in palestine a year ago i mean just to see whats going on its incredible tolerance of the Palestinian People and i remember hearing you tear down about 99 out of 100 houses of palestinians they will go to court on the courts will be stacked against them. It is amazing the tolerance of it and there arent more rebellious types of actions. I am just wondering i come from a jewish background. Went to israel and 68 zionist in those days. The question i have, i know there are some israelis that get it. And some other groups. Are there any chance the average israeli will come around and realize nationalism and racism wont work . There is no chance having two state solution think it will work. You have a swiss cheese situation on the west bank. The need to have one state living together. Is it ever going toke work . Or will it take generations it seems like it will but one of the chances of that . I would like to think its a chance. Theyre going to take a couple questions at a time just to get more people hi. Ive been to the west bank four times in the last 10 years. On the last two visits we visited settlements and to her group surprise they were filled with americans. So my question is do we know how many dualit citizens are in isrl and on the west bank . What is their impact on this conflict . One more. They can juggle three questions right there. Hi, thank you. Im a big fan of your book the only language to understand was very influential for me. I wanted to ask a question with that. There moves towards reconciliation. From the United States or from violence. Just thought uses the greatest leverage was just military aid to israel which should be at minimum they dont need any more. Im a morning if it would even work at this point and changing israel . I will take the first and the third kind of together. Because they are related. My first book is called the only language they understand. The concessions that have been made by israel and the Palestinian National movement over the course of the history of this conflict. And how all of those concessions came about through coercion to the application of force in one way or another but whether it was violence or sanctions or some other mechanism. I show how every single israeli territorial including from lebanon came under the threat of force. And ive been asked a lot about that since october 7. It was october 7 when we are looking at perhaps the opposite of israeli concessions. We look at israel succeeding and expelling many palestinians from communities in the west bank. We are advocating for entire communities the discussion of subtleties in gaza. We see your thesis and i think the answer is the first of all it is too early to say. These things do not happen overnight. Many people credit israels withdrawal on the Peace Agreement with egypt to the 1973 war which occurred several years earlier. I actually think that today, this moment first of all is an enormous historical moment. I think its going to have decades long repercussion for both societies. My belief is that we will look back on this as a turning point. That will result that israel trying to find some new kind of arrangement. Because it is very clear to every israeli that returning to the model of managing the conflict doesnt work. And cantan work. Every israeli wants an answer from the government of how are we not going to have another october 7 . How can we prevent that and the answer to that question cannot be we raised gaza we kill tens of thousands of palestinians no one will buy that. And happened on a smaller scale several times in gaza. And it did not bring a piece or security for the first time we have a situation which the palestinian issue is at the forefront of every israeli mind. Many of the last elections the palestinian issue was at the very bottom of the agenda and the protests against the judicial reform the palestinian issue was very marginal there is a small group trying to make it a more important part of the protests. But they were marginal. And today its likely this kind of protests are going to resume. And when they do will be no denying it is the central issue for israel. And i think already we are hearing the israelis talkinge about the necessity of making major concessions. Not just the idea of Political Prisoners in exchange for the hostages. The israelis are now calling for. Even a former managing director of the main o israeli inss. Eight general has now been appointed as a special advisor planning for the day after he said clearly on the record just a couple of days ago will have to make major concessions for a broader political vision for the future. It is obvious. That may come to pass it may not theyre certainly now a moment of greater openness to thinking of different kinds ofat possibilities that did not exist a month ago. With respect to the question about whether one state or two states is possible, i think the support of israel is all of the power to the palestinians for one state has always been in todays even smaller. I think its very hard for me too imagine how you see a path to that. I can imagine other kinds of arrangements that could come out. I am usually the optimist menu or the past month so i feel like that was more optimistic. So the question about where Israeli Society is, he will tell you voices like ours in the community. No one listens to us because for yearsre the right wing says take more than kill more palestinians and they face no consequences. So if you can implement an agenda that cults jewish nasupremacy and agenda of domination of one over the other white would rational voter vote for anything about that . If he was here with us he would say if you want to get a chance and the Israeli Society we need external pressure so there are consequences. Let me tell you we have been in this job for seven years. I have met someve of the most incredible activists are really courageous and brave israeli activists fighting every single day. Human rights defenders. Lets remind folks the date the government came to power 27 issued a statement saying the government has a policy towards palestinians. Twenty human rights organizations. The problem is the group we are speaking out is very, very tiny. They have no real representation in the political spectrum. I mean before october 7. If you were to take 120 numbers how many would use the word occupied to talk about the west bank 10 or 15 . You are talking about a political system that doesnt have room for that. I have a lot of faith in that group of people fighting very courageously but they are isolated. My former is reallyr lawyer hada piece in the new yorkag timesn and systematic effort. Mostly palestinians but also including concern about that eveven before the october 7. Just i dont have a long answer the question reminds us all of the reality with its important to put our place in this thing. Someone who is European Jewish could go to israel and end andpalestinian refugees which by the way the majority of the population. 70 of gaza population are themselves refugees who work forced to leave their home when israel orders them to leave their home temporarily for many palestinians its hard to get back to what theyre told 75 years ago those waiting for them to realize that rights. If it means extra heavy. Again a reality in which somebody is there can become a citizen will a palestinian who might be in gaza who can see the land therefrom in many cases because a lot of them live close by cannot go there because of who they are. Know israel destroys all of these homes many palestinians say why not move us back to our homes . Its there across the fences. It is all justt a reminder. The last thing i will send the last question is about military aid to really underscore the point how exceptional u. S. Arms sales to israel are. Theres no other country in the world for which theres no monitoring. There is no scrutiny there is no vetting of where the y aid money goes straight up calls for an arms embargo is treat israel the very same way you treat all other recipients. Not to say that u. S. Has a great record deficit so exceptional eyes. That of the third question. So i just wanted to add, i do think its the that israel. Relies on us military aid less than it did in the past. Its true that the israeli is much stronger and that source of leverage is less than it was in the. That said its very the us that israel does not want to consider having some great power patron it regards it as a Top National Priority to maintain this tight alliance the United States. And on a technical level, the idea of transferring your with Weapons Systems to a different you know, patron is is a very expensive thing to expensive thing to do and i will say that its not just the military aid, i mean, its the vetoes and the security council, its the behind the scenes p pressure any time some European Parliament wants to boycott settlement goods, for example, the u. S. Is working behind the scenes to pressure its allies not to do it. And thats enormously valuable and as important as the military assistance. We have one back there and two up here. In 2005 erin miller wrote an article about the United States role. He was a peace involved in peace negotiations earlier and in that article he said, the United States has never really been an honest broker for the palestinians, they have acted as israels lawyer. Over those the succeeding years, weve seen more and more unconditional support for israel, the arabs, of course, have abandoned the palestinians and europe has moved more to the right, biden has recently unequivocally supported israel and only when under intense pressure started talking about the humanitarian needs of the palestinians so most arabs and muslims have lost more faith in america in terms of acting as a broker so who can do this and fill this role in exerting pressure on israel to honor what the great organization, jewish voices for peace has done in terms of advocating for a jewish state within the 67 borders and fulfilling the promises of the Palestinian States that were made decades ago and only if the United States or some other significant power upholds them to account, will they ever get their stage . So and again, i just want to give a shoutout to jewish voice for peace, im neither jewish or muslim. I love jewish voices for peace. Ive been a member hrw, thank you for all your organizations, i get very emotional. Okay. For honoring the the humanity of both people. Thank you. Thank you. So we are going to take three, i think. Thank you for shoutout to jbp. Thank you. I found your book very irritating but it was the irritations of everyday life i feel on myself the older i get as some of us could identify with that, i think, but its the a wonderful book and ive read a lot of books in the middle east and this is the only one that gets in to the irritations of everyday life and how the palestinians have to cope with that so thank you for the book. Im wondering if what you think of the middle east generally, not just israel, palestinians, failed states like iran, libya, you can probably add to the list but is the International Crisis group that the you work for, are they monitoring all of that and i agree, it feels that we are at a turning point and i wondered if you would talk more about that in terms of the region and how is that going to how can the arab states help us correct our miserable Foreign Policy on the middle east, thank you . One more. Thank you. My name is mia, i wanted to speak to obviously the importance of centering palestinian stories especially now but also over the past 75 years for occupation, sorry. Can you hear me better . I think obviously those living in the United States see a deep bias in our Media Coverage on palestine and often even a censorship so particularly in your roles as a writer and as someone documenting human rights violations, how do you see the path forward to be able to bring the stories to the Mainstream Media and to your everyday american who iss not maybe not necessarily actively seeking out this information . Do you want to take the a couple so i will take the third one first just because its in my mind. You know, i wrote the book out of a sense of hopelessness and the kind of work that i had previously been doing which was more in the sphere of ngos and trying to influence policymakers and and really its what people might call a topdown approach to try and influence elite opinion and have elites change the policy and i met many people who are now, for example, working in the Biden Administration and they privately would agree with things i wrote and said and they would say to me frankly, theres no way that im actually going to act on it and the reason im not going to act on it is because first of all, the kind of thing that i can realistically do is a tinny little bureaucratic step that youu would laugh at and that tinny little bureaucratic step could cost me my career, certainly going to cost me an enormous headache and im going to getpe dozens of calls from congresspersons and im going to have to meet them and listen to them and and i just have zero incentive to do it for something that actually isnt going to change anything and, you know, i heard that enough times that itt became clear to me that exactly as your question implies, the most important thing actually is changing Public Opinion because then the congresspersons wont be calling this official for that reason. Theyll be calling him for not doing enough and and so that was part of the motivation for me and kind of changing my career and actually trying to write a work of narrative nonfiction that could be appealing to people who arent even necessarily interested in israelpalestine who might just want to hear a story that resonates with them as parents and and so i think that, you know, more of that needs to be done but its a very long road. As far as the first question goes, i mean, i agree with that kind of bleak geopolitical analysis of where the states of the arab league are headed, where biden is, so so i think that thats all correct. I mean, the things look very, very bad for any kind of prospect of pressuring israel to change the situation. That said, as a i mentioned before, i do think that october 7th itself and this war has resulted in a totally new landscape in which israel itself as during the first regardless of any outside pressure now has recognized that this isnt working and Prime Minister is on the record, and he said very clearly that his viewpoint changed on the sustainability of endless occupation, the desirability of Israeli Soldiers being in palestinian city centers and he wanted to change that and he was forced to change his mind because the costs of doing it changed. It became ungovernable and whenever theres a discussion of, you know, what can the u. S. Do, what can others do, my own view is that change has to come from many, many for directions at once. I think there really does have to be a change in a situation on the ground, the cost of the occupation has to be perceived as more costly than it has been and in addition but thats thats internally in terms of making the territory ungovernable. Mass civil disobedience and palestinians burning id cards saying they refuse the system, that kind of a thing and also in parallel there has to be a change in u. S. Policy and european policy and, you know, global movements of of solidarity to try and achieve some kind of end to this to this broad shift and regarding the second question, i really wasnt expecting to get a complement for the book after after the first sentence but the thank you. Yeah, you know, i i think that as was stated in the first question, you know, basically the arab states are betraying the palestinians and im afraid thats that even now isnt isnt over. I think even now the saudis are prepared to do normalization with israel at a very small price for israel, not a small price for the u. S. Maybe i will just share a couple of quick thoughts listening to the question. First starting with regional one. I used to cover egypt and worked in different parts of the region and theres a certain history in that world that is often forgotten. Most people when they think 2011 protest of egypt, they think social media but you talked the most egyptians and more common streams that led from the to 2011 was actually the protests in solidarity with the second fall of palestine and few spaces where people took to the streets andd protested. Now what flipped in 2011 and im generalizing grossly and if youll permit me to do so, many people in the arab world said, lets fix our repressive regimes in our countries and then lets go deal with the situation at the disposition, ten years later in 2021 we have almost gone back to early 2000s model. Because if youre a saudi activist trying to fight oppression in your own country, who are the people pushing to safeguard the three letter acronym that runs that country. Its the same very people pushing to support agenda. Theres sense in the region, okay, actually maybe we do need to deal with the question of palestine so that we have more of a past to go back. Its an interesting shift. Im not saying its happening but many people understanding as the repressive regimes in the region grow closer, opportunities for more ways to kind of strategize and think together. Postoctober 7th how that happens remains to be seen. Throughout the arab world whatever is happening in the United States, this is a profound moment in the region. You can not speak to everyone in the arab world all my colleagues that cover the region, this is dominating the conversation. To the first question, who is the broker going to be. I think it pushes all of us to push ourselves out of the world of this is a conflict between two equal parties and i think, yes, theres the bleak picture, optimism will come in. Theres another thing happening in the world which is there is global consensus israels treatment of palestinians amounts to the apartheid. Y. Not just human rights community. Countries that experience apartheid as governments have said, the entire african block to the human rights council, indonesia, malaysia, the arab league, right, former european foreign ministry, former un secretary general, the former attorney general of israel, the former netanyahu have all said israels treatment of palestinians amounts to apartheid. The un in december asked the International Court of justice to issue advisory opinion about the consequences of israels occupation. 57 states made submissions and i believe the numbers around 22 states mentioned apartheid in their submissions representing from across the global south. From subsaharan africa. My point to say, the world sees the western double standards for what it is when you say rightfully that russia is cutting off electricity and water to ukraine as a war crime, when you call for accountability in that situation and you cite occupation, but you failed to implement those principles when it comeso to israel, pa list io, people see through it and theres more of a challenge. The challenge isnt who is probinger going to be, the challenge how as more people see reality for what it is, for those im speaking to an american audience, the emperor wears no clothes. This is how i see it. We know the emperor wears no clothes and we know what the reality of treatment of palestinians and more and more alpeople recognizing for what it is. It is not a conflict between two between equals. A system methodically engineered to ensure the domination by one people over another is not a democracy with occupation, a 30year Peace Process will not alone systemically dismantle structural oppression, right, systemically denying millions of palestinians their fundamental rights because of who they are is not simply an abusive occupation. So i think more and more people are recognizing that and that is going to force eventually states have buried their head in the sand and make an example of europe. I met with probably 3 dozen governments or more on apartheid report. No one has challenged our ofindings. No one hasas said youve got it wrong. Many of them i will agree with you but i cant act on it. That brings to the latest question, we shift the way we work. We have to speak to the Biden Administration because they have leverage and we are talking about mass atrocities that need to be stopped. Buobviously we engage in that. We are not just going to focus on the u. S. Administration, we might focus more on congress or we might focus more on progressive organizations or speaking to grassroots audiences, talking to the south africas and brazils, talks to voices and constituents, can we get five countries in europe to recognize apartheid. Can we get several dozen states to sign a statement in its a long road. I think it remains to be seen how october 7th will affect all of this the and the aftermath but thats the fight were in and we need you in that fight with us and encourage you to read nathans book. Hopefully we can do our part because we cant keep having whats happening on the ground right now. I dont know how people in gaza are are surviving, our friends and leagues in israel are still shaken to the core of what happened october 7th, something needs to change. [applause] finalor word. So we want to thank you for being in this conversation with us tonight. I mean, we could go on much further and, you know, im trying to lean into optimism too although the antifascist Antonio Graham she had a quote, the pessimism of intellect, optimism of the world. The optimism of the world is that we keep fighting even though, you know, it looks bleak and we appropriately should be very sad and grieving but that should not stop us from continuing to fight because it is not obtainable. Please buy one. I think he will stick around 10 or 15 minutes to sign books. Support festival and gdp and also write your local elected official and demand that they support a ceasefire. Thank you. [applause] weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History t documents american story on and sunday boo tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books, funding from cspan comes from these Television Companies and more including charter communications. We are just Getting Started to reach those who need it