Transcripts For CSPAN2 Megan 20240705

Good evening, everyone. My name is jasmine and on of Harvard Bookstore. I am so excited. Welcome you to our event with megan buskey presenting her new book ukraine is not dead yet a family story of exile and return. Joined in conversation by emily channel justice, our spring event season is in full swing here at bookstore you can find our full time schedule at harvard dot com slash events where you can also sign up for our email newsletter. Tonights will conclude with some time for your questions, which well have a book signing here at this to ask the question. Raise your hand during the q a portion and our speakers will call on you. Cspan booktv is also our event tonight, including the q a. So if you ask a question, please just wait for their microphones to reach you before you ask the question and if you havent already, you can find the copy of ukraine is not dead yet. At the register in the next room. Thank you for continuing to steam. Ask it as we strive to keep our Community Safe and just a reminder to please silence your cell phones for the duration of this event. And as always, thank you for buying books from Harvard Bookstore for your purchases support events this and help to ensure the future of local independent bookstore. Now am so pleased to introduce tonight speakers megan buskey is a nonfiction writer who has contributed to outlets such as the New York Times book review that land tick the new republic, nprs all things considered. She is a former fulbright to ukraine, and she has been studying, writing about the country for two decades. She has joined in conversation by emily channelljustice director of the tamati contemporary Ukraine Program at the Ukrainian Research institute at harvard university. She has been doing research in ukraine since 2012 and is the author of without the steep selforganization political activism in ukraine. Tonight, they are here discuss ukraine is not dead yet. A family story of exile and return and this work megan buskey returns to her familys homeland in ukraine to uncover, document her familys past following the passing of her grandmother. Author well, as holton writes that ukraine is not dead yet as a model of both the power, the purpose of historical memoir to improve our collective understanding of the past while broadening our knowledge of ourselves and our future. Were so excited to host this here at Harvard Bookstore tonight. Please join me in welcoming megan buskey emily channelljustice. Thank you so much for having me here. Its very exciting. Be back in boston so im going to begin with a reading from the text. Im actually going start from the epilog, which is kind of a strange thing to read from for a book launch, but im very conscious of the fact that were were now at the moment where were acknowledging were recognizing and remembering the anniversary of, russias full scale invasion of ukraine. Most of this book was written before invasion. I actually finished a draft just a few days before the invasion started. And when i was doing the writing, really thought about the things that i was writing about as things that had happened in the past, things that were settled, things that were almost fascinating to me, in part because they so distant. The events of the past year have shown that was not the way to think about those events. And theres a number of things that happened to. My family over the past century that continue to be at play today. So kind of and an acknowledgment of that moment. I want to read this portion, which has to do with the fate of my cousin natalia. I dont think theres actually much you need to know in order to feel anchored in this, except maybe to know that natalia and i are First Cousins and we have the same grandmother. All right, so two months after the war began, i flew to italy to see my cousin natalia, who had left ukraine with her two adolescent daughters on in olga when the war started. And many counts, natalia and the girls lucky they went to italy. They had a family connection. Years earlier, the mother of natalias husband, vasily, had moved to the country and married italian man as soon as the war broke out, natalia, his inlaws, urged to bring the girls from about the city in western ukraine where they live and come live with them. A town outside bologna. I rolled into town on a bright spring morning aboard one of italys sleek regional rails, an italian, anya were at the station to greet me. There was no greater marker of the passage of time than anya, who at 14 was a foot taller than when i had last seen her a few years earlier. The town that we were staying in was, full of typical italian charm, polite piazzas. Still, after years, lush flowers tumbling from hanging baskets. But as we walked from the train station, it was ukraine that loomed. I knew the gist of natalia and the girls from ukraine, but hadnt bother for details. As refugees are busy. As we settled into their apartment on a leafy central street, natalia told me the full story. Like most ukrainians in italian, bustle had considered a russian unthinkable when it happened, vasso, who had been working a trucking gig in the eu, abandoned his job and rushed back to his family. He urged natalia to leave ukraine with the girls. By that point, martial law had been imposed and as a man under 60, he was barred from leaving the country. Natalia was deeply conflicted. She was a patriot and had no desire abandon her homeland in its hour of need. She was also loath to be separated bassel and their son roman, but she was over 18, was also required to remain in ukraine. Italias mother, aunt stefan, had turned 80 the previous summer, and like many people, categorically refused to leave. But natalia knew the environment unpredictable. And even in western ukraine, possibly dangerous. It wasnt a good place for kids. The first weekend after the invasion natalia agreed to check out the situation at, the train station and leave the travel hub closest to their home. And she events. By then it had been widely reported that the station was overrun with would be refugees as natalia suspected that they wouldnt be able to board a train and would just come back to triscuits. Still, she and the girls pack small backpacks with food, their documents, knowing that people been standing in closely packed quarters for hours to board trains. They were diapers when natalia was still in. The girls arrived at the station in libya, but it was teeming with people trying to flee. They luckily got in through a side entrance, allowed them to bypass the bulk of the crowd, quickly found themselves. Besides the railway tracks, they ran toward a group of men in fatigues who are knocking on a door of a train about to depart, turned away. The men dispersed, the family remained on the platform, uncertain what to do next. Then the door opened in italian. Girls were pulled aboard with moments of them stepping onto the train the the door close behind them and the wheels to turn. They had made it they had barely had a chance to say goodbye to vasyl the train was moving but going where this was the question, natalia on as she sought to study herself. None of the people around them had an all anyone knew was that the train was going west. Eventually natalia found a conductor. Where are we going . She asked him to poland. The conductor answered. He didnt seem to know any more than the others in comparison to many other ukrainian refugees. That weekend, natalia and the girls traveled in relative comfort. There are only six people in their crew pay car, which normally set for once they cross the border into poland. Volunteers came aboard train and offered them medication, food water and tea. About 20 hours after they left the vive got off the train somewhere in rural southeastern poland. Natalia deflected for help and hurried the girls into a waiting taxi. She asked the driver, the to take them to the nearest airport. That turned out to be a bit says im not sure im pronouncing that correctly. On her phone natalia found a flight from captivity to bologna that was leaving in a few hours. But when she tried to buy the tickets, the transaction wouldnt go through. Perhaps because of Cyber Attacks on banks, there are rumors of such disruption that day when she told me this part the story. I thought of our grandmothers moment of panic when she had to make sense. New yorks multiple airports. The moment that she arrived with my mom, olga, from the soviet union. 56 years later, here was her granddaughter, momentarily stymied while at an airport in a foreign country with her two youngest children trying to outrun moscows reach. As natalia considered to do, her phone rang. The caller was a friend, a ukrainian who happens lived in warsaw. Natalia told him i was going on. The friend offer to buy them the tickets. She sent the friend photos of their documents and the transaction went through. By 8 p. M. , 28 hours after an italian the girls of truth corvettes that arrived at the sellers home outside bologna and started a of their lives presenting with a question mark in peaceful italy. Natalia and the girls were in the habit of counting their blessings. Unlike so many ukrainian refugees, they had a place where they could stay indefinitely and an area that was familiar to them. They had the means to cover their modest expenses. The girls had plenty of experiences distance, education due to the covid pandemic, and after two week war induced break. They online lessons at their school and frisk events. They even had their most needed belongings. Bustles had started transporting refugees luggage from to italy and bissell had them suitcases packed with clothes and other for items they hadnt been able to bring with them when they left. It was delight to be with natalia and the girls. I was grateful that after so much time apart we could enjoy each days languid flow together. We went to Different Grocery Stores to pick out provisions for. Anya beat me several times at chess altogether at siblings for a garden she hoped to attend that summer. In the evenings, we watched films and ukrainian that anya found online, but sadness hung in the air. One day natalia walked me through some recent photos on her phone. They showed roman on his motorcycle. The girls doing yoga stretches on a beach near odessa family gathered and she cigarets all the 13th birthday. It says 12 terabyte it should be 13th birthday in december. Natalia played a video her unwrapping her main present guitar, her face a picture of delight. I could hear the voices of my loved ones in the background. Melancholy washed over because of covid. It had been so long since i had seen them, though knew we would meet again. It seemed a possible that our future gatherings would never be so carefree. Its nice that the reminds you of these moments, natalia said, interrupting my thoughts a moment, she added, but also hard before i gone to italy, i had gone back to cleveland and picked up watch at my grandmothers that my mother had on to. It was simple, but pretty plaited in rose gold. My mother had purchased it or my grandmother had purchased it in the soviet union, possibly at home when she was trying to spend down her spare rubles before she flew with my mom and olga to the united states. Chadbourne at all the time i thought natalia might like to have it. I gave it to her one afternoon after we finished lunch. Is this our grandmother . Natalia asked as soon as she pulled it out of the small jewelry bag. I kept it in. I nodded. She immediately to cry. I went over and put my arms around her so you can have a part of her with you now. I said. Some of her strength. I dont know how she did it, she said. The the words stumbling out. I grabbed back and looked across the kitchen table, an older whose finger, whose faces had grown somber. For a moment, i imagined us being joined by my grandmother in this little italian kitchen. What would she say to us . I wonder what wisdom was she in part from the years of hardship, destruction, violence she had endured . The answer came to me immediately. It was simple live. Thank you and thanks, everyone, for being here to celebrate the release of this book, especially in a week that so important to any of us who have been paying attention to ukraine for this past year and hopefully longer. Thank you also. I think that passage is really reflective of how the book brings the past and the present in. A really important conversation. So my questions are largely kind of oriented toward toward that past and present. How play on each other. But first, lets start for people who havent read the book, for people who maybe dont know that much about. Can you describe a little bit the draw of ukraine . What makes you keep wanting to go back and actually its funny that you read that particular passage so tresco which is a small town in western ukraine they are famous this really disgusting tasting water thats supposed to give you eternal life basically. Its the its the background of my lockscreen. Its one of my Favorite Places in ukraine. Ive been there, i think, five times. And so that i prepared this question about the draw ukraine without sort of thinking about. But that really made me smile while you reading that passage. So for people who dont have family, ukraine, whats the draw . What keeps keeps you back . Well, think the things that got me to ukraine are a little bit different than the things that kept me going back. So grew up in a ukrainian American Family in cleveland. I was very close to my grandmother, who was kind of like a third parent in some respects to me. And my younger brother is growing up, we sort of observed all of the traditions, traditional ukrainian holidays. We went to church all the time. We observe different ukrainian customs and it was really part of the fabric of my growing up. But also, my grandmother was kind of like a curious presence to me. I mean, she was very she was she was very kind of understandable in some way in the sense that she was very, very reliable, very loving and all the ways that you can kind of expect of a grandmother. But she had a she also had this foreignness about her and, also like a sense of sort of of tragedy. There was something about her that was clearly she had had a really difficult early life that came out through things like her starting to cry when she started to, talk about her experience and growing up in ukraine and russia or she was always sort of so attentive to like how much things cost. Like, even now, when im at the grocery store, im oh, strawberries are 275 now. And, you know, she was always like cooking this like copious, amounts of food for us. And my mother would be, well, she doesnt want us to starve. And its like that just like doesnt make sense to. An american growing up in the middle class suburbia. So there was all of this was like kind of mystery wrapped up into you, who she was. And another thing that was interesting was that i we had a very close family in ukraine. So my mom, one of her sisters, natalia, her mother was had been left behind in ukraine. And my grandfather was still there. And so there was a sense too, of a closeness that couldnt really be explained very easily. Like sometimes my mom would often my grandmother would send over packages to ukraine and my mom would often go around and kind of collect our clothes every. So often the things that we were wearing anymore that we had outgrown and we would send them to ukraine and then a year or so later itd be at my grandmothers house just sort of like bored, you know, trying to, to amuse myself in some. And i would come across a photograph of like one of my second cousins wearing my clothes and they like, looked like me blond hair and blue and green eyes. And it was so like weird sense of like, wait, like who is this person . And like, thats sort of me. Not so it was always this sort of it was a really rich set of questions, i think, and that was why i started going to ukraine in the first place when i was in college. But, you know, when i went there, i quickly realized just how fascinating place it was mean. Its this is a place thats, you know, trying sort of make sense of itself in the aftermath of the failure of the soviet project and all of the countries of the former soviet union. Just have such Big Questions facing themselves and and ukraine is the home of so many conflicts around language around history, around geopolitics and those questions and those conflicts have very stakes. People are really, really engaged and trying to to to represent their positions vis a vis those. And so for me as an american, it was so, so interesting to be able to go there and. And to start to to learn based on what was sort of unfolding ukraine. And then the other thing i would say, too, is that, yeah, ukraine has such a deep rich culture and history. Like the thing you mentioned about the track of its water mean theres theres just so much there its a really its a big country with its its own vernacular its its own history its own culture and you once you start paying attention and theres theres so much that can be unfolded, so so thats why you should care about. Ukraine. Excellent. And really leads into my next question, which is about how you found the story, because as you will all read in the book this is a story not only about megans family, but also about finding out more about family. Thats not just in family lore and then placing it within ukrainian. So how did you come put the pieces together of the Family History and especially, you know, were talking about a long period time of you working in ukraine. And you talk in the book about the experience, the archive itself changing a lot over time. Think thats really interesting to hear more about what are the things that wanted you that you want to keep digging for details, especially when you started to find out that might be details that you might not like that you learned about your family. And were there any specific that ultimately you feel like you never found answers to . Okay. Those are something im going to try to remind me if i dont answer one of the questions. So, you know, the impetus for this book, you know, i had started going to ukraine when i was in college and i was really interested. I didnt really start this project specifically until my grandmother died about ten years ago. I was really close to her. Id done interviews with her and wanted to to document her story and really preserve it because i was the one in my family who had really cared the most. So that sort of quickly ballooned into like a much very kind of ambitious project. And yet consulting archives, multiple countries and doing a lot of secondary source reading, which was really i super, super important. Theres a source section in this book which is contain some of the scholarship i use to kind of try. Imagine what the world had been like that my grandmother had lived in. Theres just so much great. I want to make sure that im calling out those because i wouldnt have absolutely would not have been able to do this book without some of those some of that work. And i also went back and did a lot of interviews in ukraine with people who had known my grandmother when she was younger, people that knew the general environment. But then the archivist was was incredibly rich. I think, in the archives in ukraine where obviously particularly important. And they themselves are an interesting story because i started this research at a particularly time in some respects, the stuff that can be the richest is actually the stuff thats in the case files that were held by the secret police, commonly known as the kgb, kind of in the united states. It goes by a couple of other names now and in the past, but until the mid 20 tens, it was really really difficult to get access to those archives, particularly if youre just like a general interested member of the public. You could if you were an academic, but it was even, you know, you could do it. But it was tough. But after euromaidan revolution in 2014, there became a really vested and trying to make those archives as accessible as possible. So it basically became and as of 2015, you could just like send an email to the kgb archive in kiev, be like, hey, im looking for an hour and do you have anything on like this person. And just give some basic information and they would reply to you and a very like reasonable amount of time usually i think two weeks and then they let, you know, what they found and then within a month they send you the file. I think it was a one hour, one or two months. I forget it was really they were always super attentive clear and much better. I would say that experience working with American Archives or you would like send something and just like have no idea where it went and never hear back. Not sure though i did get some great stuff from American Archives as well. But what i ended getting was like some secret police archives, kgb files basically on my family, which was super interesting. Theres like interrogations of people. Theres trial documents, you know, different biographical statements. Its its really, really interesting. Those files contain you have to take some of it with a grain of salt because some of those that information was obtained under duress. But its just this remarkable, you know, record of that time and what people were were experiencing. So i all of that to be very interesting also sometimes very difficult to your question, which is that i did find a lot of, you know, World War Two in ukraine was extremely, extremely difficult, devastating. Ukraine and poland were probably the most devastated countries in World War Two, though thats maybe im not totally an expert on that, but you know this the region that my grandmother was found was first occupied by the soviet union, then nazi germany, then the soviet union. Again, there was a really active Ukrainian Nationalist Movement which was trying to fight those groups, various points. So was really, really bloody and no one was spared. And so as i was doing this archival, i did come across information sort of demonstrates that showed that members of my family were kind of complicit in various, you know, atrocities. One could say, both at a political level, but also at a personal level, to be honest. And thats like a little bit of a a more sort difficult thing to describe, be a little bit more nuanced to talk about, but yeah, so we can talk a little bit more about that. Um, were there any other questions i didnt answer. Lets, lets jump to the question of inheritance, because that is sort of exactly the next question when you start to learn some of these details. So like you mentioned, these, these crimes probably things we would now categorized as war crimes on behalf of the Ukrainian National movement. Like you said, this is a very sort of nuanced discussion and youve cited a lot of good academic sources these topics. So i think book contextualizes them really well. But the other part of the context is the kind of inheritance that you talk out, talk about throughout the book. So physical resemblance, manner, isms, inherited names. So how do you sort of reckon that inheritance that you have thats, the thing that draws you to ukraine in the first place with, finding out about some of these really painful and did that at point did you kind of question your connection to ukraine or your relationship with your family. Yeah, i think thats a really good question. And i hadnt really about it in those terms until you pointed it out. I think i think it was, you know part of what was drawing me to this story was a real interest in trying to fill some of the silences that been a part of my kind of Family History growing up. I mean, like my grandmother was an extremely, you know, important person to me growing up. And she had a big and a lot going on. And she talked about some things that shed experienced in the past but there were clear things that she hadnt talked about that she also talk about. So my grandfather, for example was someone that was never spoken about her. My grandmothers husband was also someone that was never spoken about. And those were both people that i learned a lot more about through the course of this research. So i think as i did find out more, i think it was important me to be able to to build a story felt like nuanced and real and wasnt, you know, wasnt a myth. It wasnt just like some the heroics story that was going to fill in this blank that didnt feel real to me as a person in the world who the complexity Human Behavior all the time and feels myself that i myself am a very complex capable of both good and bad. And so was a kind of i dont there and i knew of course the Broad Strokes ukrainian history in this region and i knew the likelihood of you know, collaboration with the nazis or the Ukrainian Nationalist Movement is extremely extremely difficult, complex. So the likelihood people were going to be involved in things that were, you know, that looked in retrospect that great was high. So knew that i was kind of prepared in that sense. So i think that there was a way in which like finding those details, it didnt really shock me so much but it did make me feel really sad, i think. So one of the things that you know is theres there is one of my my grandmothers brother was a collaborator with the nazis were another ukrainian as part of Ukrainian Police under the nazis, which was a terrible thing to be involved in and was part of what orchestrated the holocaust in galicia though, wasnt necessarily involved directly killing people, at least in that capacity. And i remember that. Got it. Getting the document sort of demonstrated that he had definitely been in the police and just feeling like such sadness for him because my grandmother had talked so i mean, never talked about the police, very possible that she didnt even know that he was in the police. I could see that being the case as you would want to protect your family. You wouldnt them necessarily. So i just felt the confirmation that was like so it just made me feel so sad for him. All the promise that he had had early in his life was consumed under the the banner, this this horrible movement and was marshaled towards these these horrible ends. So i think but i think its important to own that. And i think its important to talk about and, you know, its its still an evolving movement in ukraine to telling these stories. You know, one of the things to say about history in ukraine is that it a process thats, you know, relatively new i mean, under the soviet union, people couldnt talk about things. There was so much that was taboo. And the soviet state had a very interpretation of history that was often like totally false. And just like wouldnt talk about things for fear of keeping, you know, keeping their family safe and not incriminating in a way that they werent even aware. And so its really just been in the past 30 years that people have started to feel openness and, even just start mean amid many other priority has i would say i feel like coming to terms of the fall of the soviet union, the financial collapse that happened and trying to figure out a political system that works so theres been a gradual process of developing a more nuanced history of ukraine. Think that thats certainly been strengthened in the past 5 to 7 years in terms of much more holocaust remembrance, much more discussion. I think among the older generation of ukrainians about what their experience was like a lot more interested in documenting those stories. So my hope is that this book is a contribution towards that end of continuing to have that like nuanced, honest discussion and that is not so much about myths but really about what really real people experience. Yeah. And i mean, its, i think related to what we just talked about with the archives. I mean, yes, ukraine has been independent 30 years, but access to information about all the things that happened where ukraine is part of the soviet union have not been accessible to regular people up until much recently. So this process about reckoning with ukraines past, its really i mean, i cant stress enough how how actual and how important it is and how how in my experience most ukrainians are very tapped it too rightly they understand that its a process thats unfolding and they in their family have a role in it. So i think thats something that you put really nicely. So if you indulge me and let me let me quote the way that megan puts this question at the end of the book, because i really think its so fantastic. So she writes, if there was something troubling afoot in ukrainian history. I came to think that it was not in its dark chapters, which can be found in the history of any country. It was in the failure to recognize and account for them to find a way to tell a story about its past that included them. How could a country know itself unless it knew all of the things it had been . I think this resonates everywhere. It resonates the us, right . Were reckoning with the role of slavery in building up the and how the contemporary us has inherited racialized institutions are based on the past. So in a kind of Bigger Picture question how do you that we can all be more attentive to the stories the story is part of history. What are the stories need to be told . And then how can we take our reckoning with the past and use it to kind look toward a Better Future . And i think theres so much in just of pointing out exactly what you said is that this is a very universal universal process. It is something that its not just like ukraine to do this. I mean, we all need to do it. Its an evolving process for us all. I mean, i think theres always things that were, you that like time, politics, societal evolution shows, us, our blind spots all the time, im sure like my grandchildren might write this book about me and my 60 years and be like, oh, i cant believe she ate needs. You know what a terrible person. Like, how could she do that . So theres, you know, theres is always a shifting sense of mores and i think the responsibility for all of us is just to try to like, really listen and as much nuance as possible, talk about these things. And as clear a way as possible and as understanding a way as possible and i think ukraine was really on its way towards that, you know, prior to this war. And i think this war, honestly, is i mean, im curious, you think but i think it will complicate endeavor so much because theres theres so so much emotion in right now and so much pain and i think for very understandable and theres a really intense sort of anti a very intense antirussian sentiment there. Now again for for totally reasons and. I think theres process now where like theyre throwing away everything that has anything to do with russia, you know, renaming all the streets, popping every bit of russian literature they can find. Theres not saying that to be judgmental, but its interesting. Its understandable that thats happening. It does sort of make it difficult to go forward with it in history and thinking about history or even thinking about Current Events with like a sort of amount of nuance and kind, trying to understand the motivations on both sides sides. And i say that as like a criticism of ukrainians, but rather just so thats something that people will need to Pay Attention to. Going. But i also think that this the war will make people more interested in understanding their familys past. And like the ukrainian archives have been digitizing like mad since the war started. And unfortunately there were a number or a number of records that were lost in the war, which is like a huge dust, just really terrible that that happened. But theres going to be a lot more stuff available online, a lot things that are accessible to people and, you know, hopefully people will be able to go back and look more carefully at stories of, you know, their of their families and think about critically. So i think itll also be exciting. Yeah. I like your i like your optimism, i hope. I mean, i think it is about, you know, ukrainians are really thinking now about what the future looks like and the past is part of that future and what theyve inherited and how theyre telling stories about themselves is part of that. So before we jump into audience questions, of course i cant help myself. I have to ask a about the title, which is of course, the to the name of ukraines national anthem. So can you just tell us a little, about what resonated with you about that particular phrase and and to title the book . Yeah. Thank you. So i chose the the title before the full scale invasion started. And chose it at the time when i didnt think that the literal meeting was was that meaningful to. Unfortunately now it is quite. But my thinking had been that it resonates on a couple of Different Levels i think for me it was it ukraine is not dead yet obviously to ukraines political struggle for independence and sovereignty over the many many centuries for which its been struggling for that. But it also speaks to kind of more personally like, i think how in my family, like my some of my family left the soviet union, left ukraine, came to the united states, but ukraine didnt die for our family, and particularly for me, it didnt and there was a way in which, you know, the cover sort of also speaks to that of this this one man on a journey and the woman is sort of meant to could be multiple people. It could be me. It could be my grandmother. It could be ukraine. But the idea being, you know, its important to to for people to continue to to to move forward. I think there is another way in which ukraine is not yet was important, which that my i wanted to sort of capture how ukraine didnt really die for my grandmother either in hearts in both ways that were good and bad i should have a really difficult time a really difficult childhood. And there was a way in which she was haunted by that for the rest her life. But also she was so connected to ukraine, you know, to the end of her life, too. So its also meant to gesture towards that, including, of course, the literal reading spirit. Thank you so much. So we will take audience questions. We do have a boom coming around. So if youll please wait to the boom. Mike gets to you so that everybody in our virtual audience you. Oh okay so we just had a concert the bso rachmaninoff, prokofiev, the ukraine and they were born in ukraine. But the considered russian composers and theres a real and they went to moscow. There was a lot of Cultural Exchange between ukraine, russia and yes, just like in lithuania yeah they loathe the russians and welcome the nazis as a way of getting rid of the russians. And then, of course the russians came back. But its so complicated. Its. How did you see that sort of the prior of russian culture is partly ukrainian culture. How does that sort itself out in your mind in the ukrainian . I mean, its rachmaninoff considered a ukrainian hero in a sense, or, you know, proud of that country. I mean, i think theres theres definitely an interest now in sort of defining some of these more russian cultural figures that have ukrainian roots as explicitly, you know, at least gesturing towards like where they were born, if theyre identified as ukrainian and certainly identifying, you know, making it clear, you know, in various cases that they identified as ukrainian. But i think it is like to your point that i think it is pretty complicated and you know there are people that grew up in ukraine spent their whole lives in ukraine but still really just identified with russia. And i think that a very i think thats to be a debate that will continue over the next its a its i think its really cool that its starting people are really asking these questions and to get really specific and not sort of just assume that oh well russia is sort of the superior culture at least globally speaking. So we should just somebody as being from russia primarily where people traditionally thought of that as being from and now theres of like, okay, lets really stop and think about this and truly try to pass what that identity was. But i dont know that theres i dont have a clear answer. I wouldnt say that. Just someone was born in ukraine at any point that they should be identified as ukrainian. I dont know. Emily, what do you think . Yeah, i think i mean, i think the contention is the question this question reminds me of this conversation i had with this really good friend, mine, whos ukrainian in august of 2021. So a few months before the war started and we were talking about sikorski, who invented the helicopter who was born in kiev during the russian empire, who did a lot of training in russia, as far as i know, and then invented the helicopter or the technology for the helicopter in the united states. When russia hosted the olympics in 2014, when they did that whole abcs of russian heritage sikorsky was on that. I think im right about that. Im so sorry. Ive made a made a mistake in my in my memory and we were joking it because you know well, sure hes russian because it was the russian empire. But the technology was invented in the us and so, you know, russia is already overstepping claim that the helicopter is russian, even though the left, the russian empire probably because of repressions that he faced and, the joke was, well, he was born in ukraine anyway, so he was really ukrainian. When you, my friend, didnt actually think of this person as ukrainian because he himself had never been an outspoken. Im ukrainian person in a way that other figures like gogol, for example, had this very long, contentious relationship with his ukrainian identity. So thats not an the answer to your question, i think, is lets lets watch and see kind of how those conversations unfold because they are this is the time that people are starting to think about what those identity mean and what they meant in the past and how how being ukrainian in the russian meant something completely different than it means today is a good example. Yeah yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, exactly yeah. Please. Thank you. I havent read the book yet, but i saw boston globe article that you authored. I thought that was very interesting. I read it to my born wife as we were driving down the road today when i was serving in the peace corps in kazakhstan. And i was struck by the nature of the Refugee Status of that entire at least many of the people were moved there after awful happened to them. And i was lucky enough to grow up in this area where some of us might have had access to a thing called facing history ourselves about the holocaust, and as a nonjewish person with a german name, i always wondered what it like to be in a terrible as a as one of the oppressor people. And how would you let it happen . And im hoping to read your book and and read about the stories of why and how or what happened. But i wondered i now Pay Attention to what the russians in russia are saying to me. And many of them are saying, like, i imagine the people in in germany said awful about ukraine and ukrainians and its shocking. Im a lifelong. Russa file, which i think for some of us might mean soviet vile people, loosely affiliated. But i wondered if your book will have any significance in pdf form or Something Like that for russians on the other side of the information wars on this subject. And i wonder what others think here. Its a strange thing to be in a bookstore when theres this war of civilization going on in europe. Thank you. Yeah i just want to underscore, i think, sentiment that obviously theres, you know, whats happening in ukraine right now is is so alarming and requires so much attention and support. But theres certainly something thats happening in russia, too, which is is just devastating and has been happening for a long time, too. I mean, i dont think this is something that putin just managed to manufacture over the past year mean hes hes kind of made his population receptive to this kind of propaganda and. Its also in part to note that people are not going to let go of these ideas easily either. So even if putin is, you know, deposed at some point, whatever, i mean, is still going to be a big in russia that thinks this really has really alarming kind of interpretation of history. And i know how to get through to those people and yeah, i, i dont i know what to say about that. Unfortunately unfortunately. Yeah. But thank you for the question. Yeah no. Okay. Hello . Yes, i think that the book youre writing right now, the book youve written is very interesting, the story behind it. And your family is one that id say is a very well honorable kind of thing to go after it, the kind of study, what your family did it throughout history and such. My question, you say the. Epilog was written during the ukrainian war. I was wondering what other parts of book potentially were influenced later on by the war as you know, you revise it and, edit it. Its a great question. Yeah, yeah. I think, i mentioned that i finished the book just a few days before the war started. And the war, i was like, oh my gosh, im going have to rethink whole thing. And i, you know i did wrestle with that to some extent and i, i wasnt, i did end going, you know, just as the epilog was shows, i did end up going to europe after the war started and april, may and spend some time with my family. I wasnt really sure, kind of how or if that would make it into the book or if that would feel important. And it ended up. Yes. Feeling important. And so i didnt include it, but i think i didnt end up changing very much apart from that. Actually, i did end up including a prolog which kind of sets up the so you can sort of think about it a little bit through the lens of whats whats happening now. But what i found was that like so much of what my family experienced actually does, has a lot of parallels with whats happening, like sort of crazily so, i mean, a lot of things like deportation, siberia, migration and Refugee Status, sexual violence. I mean, all of these things are that were part of my familys story in the 20th century. And i think i think the point is not so much drawing this direct connect, so much as like able to present to the reader an account allows you to see like actually this is not just something thats happened in the past year or even in the past nine years or even the past, like 31 years of ukrainian independence. So something thats been at play for a long time, this region, these tensions between ukraine and russia, russias sort of interest in dominating its neighbors and. I think thats really what this book can help people understand. And its like the bigger, the bigger, the bigger history. So its not just like 88 to be, but over time there are patterns and we need to be to so. Yeah, what connects. Yeah. Just wanted to make sure that everybody else had a chance to her. Second, just a quick question. You think that the same story could be written in lithuania today or do you think its very different or the same . Oh lithuania has a lot of the same dimensions. I mean, it doesnt obviously have an an active invasion of russia. Right. Um but yeah. And lithuania is trajectory is is is a bit different from ukraines. I mean, if talking about like the stakes for what ukraine is facing now and some of those historical patterns that the gentleman in the back asked about, i mean, lithuania is and who knows if theres, a, theres more time and like more people or, you know, more time passes, history unfolds, more we could see maybe a bigger a bigger pattern unfolding about places beyond just ukraine but because lithuania was able to integrate. So readily into and because it does have such a strong tradition of sort of existing outside of russia, whereas ukraine was more there is at least parts of ukraine that were under russian domination for a longer stretch of time. I dont think its as honorable. Im not always the man scholar. So thats just my thats my, my quick on sort of the uniqueness, the ukrainian experience versus that whole area because the russians nazis russians etc. Thats right. It wouldnt be sort of similar story. Yeah, certainly in the 20th century. But i think the vulnerability of of ukraine now is different. And i mean, i would also say like the russian claims on ukraine different than they are on places like lithuania. Right. Like russia thinks that ukraine is part of russia full stop and thats what motivates the war. So thats thats particular i think to different you know, from places in the languages theyre a little more similar to lithuanians. Yeah not so much. Yeah. Please. Yeah. How is your family supported or maybe engaged with you with this book writing process and the publication of it . So my family was instrumental in helping me do this book. My aunt stefan was kind of a fixer for me in terms of going around and introducing me to people in the village to talk to. I mean, she made so many trips with me. She was so, so, so helpful and she absolutely need to be. So she really kind of took it on to help me. I mean, every all of my ukrainian family is extremely supportive and and i think just generally sort of pleased that this was something that was important to me. They were able help me do it and its now out on the world and theyre pleased with that. I think, you know, some of the revelations in the book are, you know, uncomfortable for for people in family and for me to, um, and, you know, i think everyone has a slightly different set of reactions to that also like this is sort of a weird time. Theres people have a lot of other issues going on right . So its sort of a weird time to be thinking about these sorts of things, questions of history, whether its just sort of questions around like, okay, can i travel of my immediate vicinity and you know, not and put myself in extreme danger like, is that is that a question . I dont know. So my i think now and i think itll be interesting, see how it unfolds. Like hopefully with the war ending and more engagement with the book. But so far theres its its just been generally extremely supportive in terms of putting it together and just generally supportive in terms of like it being published. So. How is your family doing now . Ukraine so they are. I, i had a number of family members that left the country as refugees and theyve since come back, which is a pretty common trajectory a lot of people have sort of settled into sort of a new normal one might say so theyve gotten used to the power outages. My they have like my cousin has this like really ingenious kind of alternative electricity system set up and her house so that like when the power goes out like you can just hit there like Battery Powered lights everywhere and you could just hit it and its fine. Theyve got wifi on a generator, so peoples lives are able to sort of go on with a sort of semblance of of normal at least in the places that are not directly attacked. But i think its extremely stressful and environment and theres a big psychological burden. Everybody, everyone knows someone whos fighting, knows someone whos died. Everyone knows whos lost their homes. People everyone knows someone whos abroad. So this society is extremely disrupted and theres a lot of resilience and theres a lot of commitment to kind of living ones life as fully as possible. Ukrainians as i must say, have like a lot of lived experience with being a part of a weak state. So people are pretty good at like around, you know, working around things like 20 years ago and living, for example, water was only available 6 hours a day. People used to keep these like big garbage bins of water, their houses. And so, you know, people were kind of remember how to deal with shortages that might to like americans just seem really, really, really hard to contend with. So theres a theres sort of a resilience and ability to to to move forward. But i think theres just so much suffering. And i, i dont think you can talk about one without the other. I dont you know, see a lot of stories about like how ukrainians are, you know, just being so defiant and theyre going out and partying and like the rave. And its you know, its yes, thats thats true. But thats thats also, you know, side by side with seeing you know messages about, you know, your school mates serving on the front line or finding people whove been killed. I mean, its its a really, really difficult reality. I think. So well probably have time for one more question. If anybody. Yes, please. So im kind of curious about the the or the archives. You said you had access to. And so is that you now theres like a process of that being digitized. Is is that something that is accessible now the general public there like a web browser or are things now interrupted because of the ongoing war . Like how do you see it . And i guess the second part of the question, too, is given were a lot of similar themes and trends and like there efforts to document and archive whats going on now and have that accessible to a broader audience. Well, for posterity sake, yeah. So on the war crimes stuff, theres so many entities that are doing really good work in terms of documenting more crimes and other journalists that are really committed to that. Emily, you probably even know better than i do about what those groups are. But yeah, theres a lot of really good groups to network in terms of like exact the material online. So i havent actually tried to like get into the system and google myself but there is and i dont remember exactly what the websites called, but theyre trying to create kind of like a one stop shop portal where. You can go in and sort of just basically put in anybodys and you should be able to eventually at least get like as much as possible about whatever might have on that person and. You can go theres like a Facebook Group i think of or i forget what im part of a group or maybe i follow like the director of the state archives or hes like constantly posting about how much stuff theyve digitized recently. And its incredible what theyve been able to do. And so i dont know their timeline for them being able to finish that portal or come close to like meaningfully finish it, but it does seem like theyre getting a lot of like support and money going in and like obviously people like really interested in continuing to to preserve those. So i think that theres hopefully really good resource going forward. Yeah, i, ill just add when the workforce force first started, we had people at the Ukrainian Research institute, we were contacted by a number of archives and museums asking basically if we help them find the space for their material, it wasnt so it would be you someone with a laptop uploading, everything that they had because they figured its somewhere in a cloud. Then if our our actual server gets hit, itll still be preserved and. This is when the first parts of the russian attacks did include things like Cultural Heritage sites. Right. This intentional targeting of things like that. And what they needed was space they needed like somebody who could pay to, have their materials uploaded. So that has continued for the past and museums and lots of museums all around ukraine have have put a lot of effort into what they have and preserving what they you can do a lot, a lot more Virtual Tours of ukrainian museums now than you can before. Yeah, i think the ones that ive seen so far are mostly like you face museums, but its a you know, its a nice way to kind of support them. But people are taking advantage of the capacity, you know, the increased openness that started after 2014 and the increased interest in ukraine since the war started to really push, you know, the openness about Cultural Heritage in history. So you know, you dont have to have family in in the archives anymore to necessarily be able to access them, which is, i think, a nice kind way to preserve and open some of that historical discussion. You well, if youll join me in thanking megan once more for her wonderful book. You are watching the tv. Booktv. You can also follow along on social media on twitter, instagram and facebook. We are live with author and journalist David Quammen who will take your calls and questions via email, text and social media. His books include the song of the dodo and breathless about the race to defeat the virus that caused the covid pandemic. Host what is the scientific definition of a spillover . Guest