Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20140429

It needs to be protected. Provider to get it without the password and often they i will stop there. Kiam. That is what is called thank you. Compelled consent to an i want to pick up on what katie artificial concept. Was just talking and to give not to push it too far but richard a chance to talk a little bit about the issue of that is the safety valves civil investigation, what that already in the law that this reform would not change. Would mean for several agencies at the end of the day we conducting investigations. First, if either gm or katie should not disfavor the use of the clouds services. Could talk about possible worker rounds i understand that could if you take a vintage jazz be a sticking point. Of the of flexibility or what are some of the other better security, back up, a possible worker rounds. Collaborative to shared documents against a and enterprise to take a vintage you somehow give up your privacy rights at the end of they have subpoena power. The day you are traditionally have served there disadvantaged the and if you subpoenas on the targets of tried to maintain your own their investigations or other people who may be the senders data. Are receivers of letters our email or documents that may be relevant to an investigation. The Heritage Action for america wrote and said we and the process has always been will codify these procedures that the Regulatory Agency and make it Crystal Clear we serves those subpoenas. The recipients of the subpoenas, the people who created the have not heard back yet i record, the account holder, sender or recipient of the dont know if that letter letter, of the email goes found its way yet but with a through all of their files in their possession or control, proposal that would make it meaning everything they have locally and anything they have removed restored. Clear the traditional forms he pull it all together, go of access to our preserved through it and determine what is relevant and make a production with up backandforth of to the government. Motion to compel process and the government feels that you have not fully produced, if they consent would be preserved. Feel your withholding, the government makes a motion to with the interest of time compel, conduct further inquiry i just want to ask one more into what kind of record you might have to make a two additional witnesses or parties in the case. Question with Location Information up the topic of and through that adversarial process, through that motion to legislation. Compel process the production is to be held unanimously defined, the scope of the lawenforcement attachment of the gps device to a car a prejudice to find, and the person is compelled to disclose and the use to monitor their own data. Someones activities over a. [u period of time implicated the fourth amendment. It is not clear from that decision what that means for the collection of other types of Location Information but it might be helpful to briefly talk about with the investigative tools and the other issues. Location information is a complex subject that could to merit its own hour of discussion. To touch on a few issues we may have to schedule another briefing for that. 1. To make is geode location is not one thing. Particularly where a those that you tea and consider in the other person has a genial account Location Information may with stuff to their wife or have coaming gold that could be a huge amount of data. Only tell you what country you are in. It is my view the sec and there is information you other agencies should not voluntarily give god you have that end run. Announced your location. It cannot open letters. Maybe not. If in the routine course of with king up the postal business it is kept by the service, telephone, now the provider. Some is not. There are some sorts of ways email that the agencies that this needs to be never had the ability to treated carefully to open postal mail. Consider the needs for the civil agencies this is the difference between of Public Private safety and civil liberties. Civil and criminal justice i will say that the current agency. The things that congress and the state legislature has rules are fairly complex but said these are crimes that carry the criminal powers if i can give you a couple of points i can leave you opening mail, tapping phones with fat and i am happy to , we have no warrant speak about that as well. And bust into the door if the person does not open or for example, the not precise cooperate. Information that identifies that is the criminaljustice powers. Those have never been held which tower your phone has been used to communicate by the civil regulatory with is kept for rolling and agencies. They cannot get search warrants or tap phones. Billing. With the criminal violation it is not terribly useful of the security law and the Justice Department a and fbi Work Together than they can but can be useful to show but that is on the criminal side. Of the civil side the someone was near the scene of the crime not to across process between the town with his alibi part of regulator and regulated that is obtained by a court fight it out for what could be disco disclosed we order by Law Enforcement that is the independent magistrate that evaluates think those same rules the evidence and decides to should apply in the digital issue the order. World. Search warrant or wiretapper more precise gps level criminal powers. Informations where a subpoena motion to compel kidnapping victim maybe and adversarial process between the two parties is civil. You need that on the future ongoing basis is generally i want to see if richard obtained by a warrant at this time. The same kind of search wanted to do talk about the warrant for the content of distinction . As we they doubt with other sorts. That is a brief primer. Testimony be last year, the department has i am happy to take questions taken a careful look at the i want to do give jim an situation weather warrants should be required for chance to Say Something content and we appreciate first. It is a complicated question but on this little the appeal provided congress sheets of the members of due process and the reform principles of the has contingencies for limited functions for which coalition, number one is the award for content h. R. 1852a that would pose a problem. And number two is the one of the things weve recommendation by and large pointed out is the issue weve moved to the warrant that we have been discussing for the standard of sell to here with the basis for our Location Information that. We believe it is important and there are three pending bills of that federal listed there is some accommodation or mechanism to allow the best ticket investigative fall of them bipartisan. Authorities of the the issue is in some cases information that is offlimits and impossible to obtain. This hill tower could cover a very large area. How that works is something in some cases the tower in we have not taken a Firm Position by can imagine how we satisfy a concerns and than i can cover a very small area. Certainly historically thirdparty subpoenas are what the wireless providers have been doing is getting more customers in favor of available to get the evidence where the evidence might be obtained or located the advertisements to has few were dropped calls. Through banks or other witnesses in our fully they have been building more and more towers including compliant with the fourth amendment. Those cover smaller and smaller areas. Your part of the Investigative Agency so the average self the user investigating a terrible oil spill. A environmental violation or cellphone user where it a civil rights violation where the landlord is accused of animus with covers a relatively large area of the com downtown to public housing. What do you do . Go into an Office Building you may issue a subpoena. Most of the time that person sometimes just for a floor. Will respond to the subpoena i say gps that the but what about the situation government agrees requires a where they wont . Or would there be a warrant it does not work in temptation to delete what is the subway but my cellphone does. How is that . Stored . What happens in that because the cell phone situation if they denied companies have put the towers in the subway station to service your cellphone. That is there account . Is that available to correct this situation . Sometimes that data is very weather that could be accomplished is one paying broad and sometimes it is but what if the option to very specific sometimes it come in and contest it . Locates a person in what is a private space a protected if they have the ability to raise issues of privilege or space in their home or other parts excluded war apartment or office. Since the government will whatever restrictions you never know if they track would like to see including personal for time they will issuing protective orders to make sure there is no undue not know how granular the data will get the better privatisation beyond that situation. Approach is to get though warned. The courts are all over the the Department Position ballpark but the blue george stated last year we think there is considerable merit but we want to make sure of the courts require a there are appropriate warrant. Exceptions where agencies different breakdown pretty cannot get a warrant. Much the opposite end have i will touch on one thing mentioned sharing between not required a warrant for civil and criminal to be the sell to our data that there is no difference clear it is not possible to between tracking a person have a civil side case to be opened to obtain they cannot prospectively 30 days versus going back 30 or 60 or 90 ask a criminal case be days to find out where they were as they traveled. Opened so that is not a bills were introduced. Viable solution either. We support reform including addressing and clarifying the question of location. You describe some of the limitations. For this year and none of those bills the bill in the i have a few comments. Senate the bill in the house of the fading is it is not has attracted the most off limits to use civil attention is content only. Agency is. The one thing that can be they can subpoena the person done is addressing the content question that is a who created the document they just can subpoena us glaring deficiency of the statute the location data Third Party Service provider. That would be criminal but would you do about the socalled one time payments they would be able to go. Or where you simply demand but those from the personal those that are in touch with email they could send of the certain tower at the time of the crime that pose preservation order to the providers ibm using they says issues . Will hold that information it is only a short period of so they could send the data time as opposed to one person tracking them over what the Service Providers have. They could do though order time to read one separate standards . To compel where they think i in a way there have been in have not shared that the hearings on this but we have not dug into the information were go through necessary detail on that to other Court Proceedings are be held in contempt of get it done with this court. For investigative agencies congress. You get the information if i i will leave it there. I just want to make one more dont comply it just takes comment before open questions. Here in the house werent more work if they could just subpoena the third party. For content has 200 to go back, the fact is the cosponsors. It should have more. I think the house has an government already has your information if i get to the opportunity to pass a bill that does not leave the post privilege or protection it is already out there. Office under suspension. This is something powerful. That i have not been able to sort through first. If you are one of the people you think nobody is looking. Who want something done about and this day for but they still have the ability to have looked at getting a. It. It needs to be protected. This is the low hanging fruit. If youre congressman wants somebody could have already to show he cares about seen your private stuff. With the civilrights americas privacy he better be on this and there should violation you could look at be a vote to show who supports americas privacy everybody in the building if and who doesnt. The landlord does not agree approach that makes it clear who cares about the fourth there is a procedure in amendment because it is a order to get to his male by demonstration of how important privacy is a and the first set to strengthen issuing a preservation the First Amendment with the order. There are avenues just not additional environment. With that impassioned as easy. Respectfully disagree. Note we will turn to questions review would not mind coming up to the of preservation order is helpful to make sure the microphone please. Data is not deleted but there is no mechanism to get can you comment on the it at the end of the day. Oral arguments from the Supreme Court for the cellphone search cases . Second, it may well be the individual does notnl have also the ability of the access perhaps the first courts to keep up with the pace of technological he goes to delete his account. Change . Will we need the updates every year or every five maybe it is just deactivated years . Or they wisely put in the. Preservation order first you cannot compel someone that they do not have access to any lunker. Is this ongoing litigation i cannot comment. [laughter] the search of the cell phone and wrongdoers can can is still is the different topics and what covers put on limits to prevent information at the provider. Access to that information with the exception to the that is almost a tradition of fourth general warda rule. Amendment issue with the with the preservation exception to the warrant authority a civil or requirement. Generally when the Police Conduct the rest that criminal agency or a Regulatory Agency can issue the preservation of order to process with the authority that they have to rest the person based on their put it in a separate file a observation carries with it and keep it there. That could be issued before the subpoena before the to search the person for any investigation is open. Weapons of the paramount that is the earliest stage interest that he could before the target has any hint they have come within the scope of the interest. Destroy a jury the course of you freeze it first then issue the subpoena and the the of restive the questionnaire argued before the Supreme Court on tuesday reform proposals to get the is does that exception account identifying extent to searches of cell information at the end of phones and other Electronic Devices . I am not sure. The second the day this is the question, sometimes the courts will give us the adversarial fight between the two parties but that is answer a and clarity. The way it has spent for sometimes it is up to congress. Those whole history of the regulatory state. We see constantly going back and forth between congress the end of the accords. Both institutions need to understand the technology to recognize the way it challenges traditional statutes or case law. In terms of the update of ecpa if we took away the content rule that would be durable. Currently it is not doable. Much we could fix that. Location tracking with more effort we could fix and that would be durable. Down the road there may be new technology to access that we dont anticipate now but what the courts are grappling with with no pending legislation is the issue of you did to with the front page of the Washington Post that goes to the scope of the warrant. Even if you have one the authority said digital environment vastly broaden his the scope of that search now going to the thirdparty Service Provider or a persons hand held the vice you can get far more information van with a traditional physical world search. Grappling with a question how to read narrow with the execution of the warrant in the Digital World . How to be extended to them and where you have thirdparty providers who bears the burden . Who is responsible for sorting through the vast amount of data that may include your relevant personal data not relevant to to the investigation there will be a lot of issues to be addressed some by the courts and some by congress. With a footnote the litigation edmonton dick and from the Washington Post. I am barred from that but there is the filing of the brief of the case and i brought a couple copies if anybody is interested. It probably will not have a persons name. It is related to to redacted. [laughter] application that is ongoing. But i can show you. I am not wedded to percent sure what the underlying matter is put the issue is more about the collection of evidence over the substance of the crime. Jim, you were describing how the sec was with the attitude that you may or may not degree with but with richard to find a line to draw some rather rather than regis have to get those agencies a carve out. Is that accurate in the the initiation in . Given that we talk about the sec as it is applicable including the irs event how consequential this is. That is a good point in fairly talking about the sec but it for a dissident to all the eliot the federal level but also of the state and local. I feel we have been that they will be losing something if a warrant is codified. But you never really had access to the data in the cloud. It did not exist until about five years ago. Regulatory agencies have done their work biden with the subpoena power, the motion to compel the consent process the preservation order, a subpoena access to the identifying information. All of those tools remain available to them if this reform is enacted. They would not be precluded. Nothing is off limits. No part your data here to avoid compliance but what does it take for the government to get it and would then agency have of wiretapping type power a search and seizure types that they have never had . We try to make the bill as clear as possible to say there would be no curtailment of the traditional powers to get data of. You will not get the extraordinary power to seize the data but you can still have the traditional means to catch access to data. So with that tugofwar that characterizes the process that is why it is simple not the police process or the seizure power which is what weve reserved for the criminal side of the government. We are running out of time but richard can go next. I would respectfully disagree they have not had that power under existing law over 20 years with that informations stored in that cloud is though whole point to make a change to reverse the fact is the part of the obama i will leave it to at that. Thinking the congressional caucus. I appreciate the efforts take on behalf of all those involved to have this important hearing. This is an official congressional hearing as opposed to a town hall meeting and as such we must abide by certain rules of the committee on Homeland Security and have the house of representatives. I wish reminder just today demonstrations in the audience including applause and verbal outburst as well use of signs or placards are violations of the rules of the house of representatives. Also photography and cameras are limited to a crowded press only. I now recognize myself her opening statement. I would like to thank our witnesses for their participation in this hearing, and their commitment to aviation security. I also want to acknowledge the sacrifice of tsa officer hernandez who lost his life here on november 1, 2013. It is my sincere hope that this hearing not only reminds us of the horrible events of that day but also motivates us to make changes that will improve our ability to detect and deter potential threats, and respond to future emergencies. I believe we owe it to mr. Hernandez and all of those impacted by the shooting to examine the facts and shed light on the details and timeline of this incident in an open setting. That alone is the purpose of todays hearing. The shooting that occurred here at lax exposed significant weaknesses in the ability of federal and local personnel to communicate and coordinate during an emergency, weaknesses that i suspect exist in many other airports across the country. Perhaps these weaknesses stem from resources constraints, or clashes between agencies, or a belief that an incident like this is unlikely. It is certainly easier to push Emergency Planning and exercises off to sometime in the distant future rather than making them a top priority for today. Having said that, i think most of my colleagues will agree that thirteen years after 9 11, these types of flaws cannot be tolerated, regardless of the reasons. Based on the reports completed by los angeles World Airports and tsa, it appears there is widespread agreement on this. According to los angeles World Airports, the response and Recovery Efforts that followed the november 1st shooting lasted roughly thirty hours. The shooting affected over 1,500 flights and 171,000 passengers. Among the findings in its report, lawa highlights significant coordination and communication challenges among local First Responders. I agree with lawas assertions that Airport Security needs to become more riskbased, Emergency Communications need to be more streamlined, and there must be a unified incident command setup immediately after an event like this. While the report provided details on certain aspects of the response, lawas report conspicuously excludes any mention whatsoever of where the two officers assigned to terminal 3 were at the time the first shots rang out, and what impact, if any, this may or may not have had. I believe the location of these officers is crucial to understanding the viability of a flexible response to screening checkpoints, especially when you combine it with the lack of Interoperable Radio Communications that we know exists. If we do not have Law Enforcement officers stationed at heavily trafficked screening checkpoints or ticket counters, we should at least have confidence that we know exactly when the first officers will be there to respond to an active shooter or other emergency. I look forward to discussing this issue in greater detail today. In addition to lawas report, we have had the benefit of reviewing tsas recent report, which highlights several recommended actions, including mandatory active Shooter Training for screeners, improved Communications Systems, and enhanced Law Enforcement officer presence at checkpoints and ticket counters during peak travel times. The bottom line is tsa cannot do it alone, and must rely on its local Law Enforcement partners in an event like this. Before i conclude my remarks, i would like to remind members that we are on a tight schedule, with folks flying out at varying times this afternoon. I will be enforcing the fiveminute rule for all members so that hopefully we are able to get through two full rounds of questioning. My intention is to hold a second hearing in washington to look more broadly at how the lessons we discuss here today can or cannot be applied to airports nationwide, and i welcome all members to attend that hearing as well. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the full committee, mr. Thompson for any statement he may have. Turn one and thank you for holding this important hearing today. At the outset i like to acknowledge executive director and chief for their hospitality to witness to a the committee and its oversight hosting a hearing on accommodating our members request a to the sides of this tragic shooting of november 1, 2013, is appreciated. To administrator pistole, thank you for appearing before the subcommittee to discuss tsas findings in the wake of the shooting and planned reforms to mitigate any similar incidents in the future. We placed the city of our aviation sector in the hands of men and women of the Transportation Security Administration every day. Those on the frontlines, transportation street officers, deserve to know that we are doing everything within our power to see that they themselves are secure when performing the critical job of screening passengers. Im pleased that the National President of the American Federation of government employees, j. David cox, is appearing before the subcommittee today to give voice to the transportation Security Officer workforce. As has been well documented on november 1, 2013, an armed guard, nterminal three of Los Angeles International airport and opened fire on transportation Security Officer hernandez. The gunman then proceeded through the terminal targeting other tsa employees, shooting and injuring transportation and Security Officers grigsby and spear. Thanks to the bravery of the Police Officers on duty, the gunman was ultimately taken down and prevented from causing further harm. While some may wish to point fingers and assign blame for this horrific incident, i believe doing so would be counterproductive. All of our energy should be directed towards not only learn from the incident but also implementing needed reform. Frequently we speak of Lessons Learned from a tragedy to fail to come to the reforms necessary to present principles lessons from learning again. Or instance after 9 11 identified the key mitigation between and amongst First Responders was an area that need major reforms. Despite knowing this and having spent 13 billion to correct the problem, a review of the report the airport released last week revealed that more than a decade after 9 11, the police and Fire Department at this critical airport could not communicate effectively during an emergency. That you transportation street officers have been trained to use in the event of an emergency did not work. The state of affairs is unacceptable. Our police, firefighters, transportation secured officers and emergency medical personnel, along with the american public, deserve better. After the shooting at lax on november 1, had the intent upon firing on passengers instead of tsa personnel, untold lives could have been lost. In addition to the committee should issue, i have concerns regarding the training of transportation Security Officers are receiving for active shooter samaras. I look forward hearing from administrator pistole on how he intends to ensure all tsos are trained to respond to an active shooter scenario in a manner relevant to the work environment. Before yielding back i would like to acknowledge representative waters who represents the district the airport is in, and representative brown, for their participation in the hearing today. I also must ask unanimous consent that representative waters and brown be allowed to sit in and question the witnesses at the hearing today. With that, mr. Chairman, i yield back the balance of my time. I thank the gentleman, and without objection we welcome ms. Waters and mr. Brown. Picture number two does the chairman of the full committee, mr. Mccaul for any statement he may have. Thank you, chairman hudson. I would like to offer my sincere condolences to mr. Hernandezs wife, ana, as well as tsa officers grigsby and speer, who you are true heroes what you did that day and we appreciate that. I want to thank the chairman for his leadership on this issue and want to thank the los angeles World Airports for hosting us. Chief gannon who gave us a tour of the term of this morning, john pistole, tsa and ms. Lindsey, thank you for hosting us and giving us a briefing this morning their very informative and very insightful. It is critical that the agencies responsible for protecting our airports are doing all that they can to keep passengers and employees safe. I believe this hearing is an important opportunity to examine Lessons Learned from the shooting, what went well and what didnt, and how we should apply those lessons to other airports as we move forward. We live in a very dangerous world. Unfortunately, events like the one that happened here are difficult, if not impossible, to prevent. But what we can do is improve our ability to detect the threats before someone starts shooting, or detonates a bomb, or hops a fence, or takes advantage of any security loophole or vulnerability that we have failed to close for one reason or another. As chairman of the committee on Homeland Security, i know how committed our Law Enforcement officers are, day in and day out, to staying ahead of any potential threat. And yet, the tragedy that the world watched unfold at this airport could very likely happen again at another airport in the future. So we need to be prepared for that, wherever and whenever it may happen. There are valuable lessons to be learned by the incident that , but first we need to dissect exactly what happened. Among the shortcomings in the response to the shooting, we know that all relevant agencies did not join together in a unified command structure until 45 minutes after the shooting occurred. Even then, the los angeles Fire Department did not join the unified command. This, along with the lack of Interoperable Communications made the job of executing an Effective Response more difficult. What is perhaps most concerning about the problems identified after the incident is that if the gunman had been shooting randomly, rather than targeting tsa, we would have seen a much greater loss of life; dozens if not hundreds of people could have been killed within the four and a half minutes it took officers to detain the gunman. The also, on the day of the shooting, Airport Police were operating vehicle checkpoints and stopping certain vehicles to check for anything suspicious. Yet, as the airports report points out, it is possible the shooter actually went through one of the vehicle checkpoints and officers did not deter or detect him. There is no such thing as 100 security, but this situation reminds us that we cannot become complacent, and we need to constantly stay ahead of potential threats with proven tactics and techniques. There are some parallels to what happened at the Washington Navy yard just a month and a half before this incident occurred, but i do want to close on a positive note. I think what we saw today with ms. Lindsey, chief gannon and john pistole, not only prior to the shooting and what was done at the shooting to stop the shooter, to stop more bloodshed, the heroes that day as a point out our tso officers and chief, the great work that you did. I must say i walked away very impressed with how this incident was handled by all the relevant agencies, but also the way they have looked in a selfcritical way to examine what can be done better. I think thats what its all about, how can we do a better job so we can prevent this from happening again. I must say im very, very proud of the los angeles police, Airport Police, ms. Lindsey your efforts with the airport and mr. Kessler, which are done with tsa to make this place a safer airport. And with that, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank the gentleman. The china recognizes the gentleman from texas, ms. Jackson lee for any statement she may have. Might i add my appreciation to you, mr. Richmond, and also to the chairman and Ranking Member of the full committee of Homeland Security. I also want to acknowledge my colleagues, congressman waters who has with great honor served his community and showed great compassion for these issues, and to congratulate congresswoman brownlee for leadership on very important legislation that hope will be passed and the president will sign. I thank all of you for coming to this hearing and particularly the witnesses, mr. Pistole who service to this nation, ms. Lindsey, your guidance of this great airport and along with your colleague, chief gannon who represented the case today of november 2013. Mr. Cox, thank you so very much for standing very strong and all for First Responders in name of tso officers. Today we will learn what we can do to prevent or mitigate a similar incident in the future. At the outset i would like to acknowledge that the Ranking Member of the subcommittee, our friend and colleague, mr. Richmond of louisiana, could not attend the hearing today although he wanted to very much. He has requested that i express his regret, which i will do, and ask that i sit in this place turning the hearing today. At this time i ask unanimous consent that Ranking Member richmond prepared statement be answered in the record. Without objection, so ordered. Again i thank all the witnesses for green before the subcommittee today, a special thanks as a present executive director lindsey and chief gannon for hosting us, and akin to administrator pistole and National President cox, our friend and the friend to the working men and women traveling to appear before the subcommittee. Today with the honor and privilege of having officer and his wife present with us today, and as we chatted about her wonderful children, i got it was a to acknowledge to all of tso officers, including mr. Grigsby and mr. Speer, let it be very clear that you serve in this Nations Defense and that tso officers across america, our First Responders in their serving to protect our National Security. Mrs. Hernandez, as i said, her husband fell in the line of duty serving his nation and were grateful to all of you for your sacrifice and your willingness to sacrifice, saddened that it occurred and we thank you for your presence or today. Todays hearing focuses on an issue that i closely observed during my time in congress and as a member of the Homeland Security committee. That is the safety and security of our Aviation System and airports. For years i served as either the chair or Ranking Member of the subcommittee of the subcommittee and work to enhance aviation security. I would hope that we soon have an opportunity to look at that again for the many changes we may need to include. Understand the importance of training for transportation study officers, that legislation contained a section focus on the establishment of a centralized Training Facility for the workforce. I look forward hearing from administrator pistole today on how intends to train the entire transportation Security Officer workforce on active shooter scenario any setting assembling their workplace environment, a crucial element to the many tso officers across america. Todays hearing also focuses on a topic of great interest to me in light of a similar incident had occurred as i mentioned earlier today in houston, texas. Last may a man entered the houston bush and the and got to airport and was in the parking lot for over an hour without being confronted and fired shots into the ceiling there a ticketing area. Thankfully no passengers or airport personnel were injured in that incident. Tissue to ultimately took his own life. As an additional point of the tso officers that first acknowledged or thought that there was something suspicious about this individual. Ultimately, as this gives officer confronted the individual and the department of Homeland Security Law Enforcement agent came out from another direction and was part of the overcoming of the individual, even though he had begun to look as if hes going to take his own life, taken together these shootings at lax and houston bush intercontinental airport shows the airport or targetrich environment, as unfortunate as that may seem, whether it is the airplane, the area where passengers are, or whether or not it is the open space and a secure area for tso officers are manning. Knowing that it is incumbent upon us to implement recommendations and modify policies were appropriate that will make the airport environment more secure for passengers, airport personnel and tsos. Undoubtedly doing so will require resources and support from federal, state and local authorities when an incident occurs, our Communications Systems are only as good as the weakest link to our challenge today is to make the weakest link as strong as possible. It does no good to the los angeles World Airport to invest millions into negation systems at the charger station else to do so. Mr. Chairman, i look forward to listening to the testimony and i will submit the rest of my statement into the record. I thank the gentleman be. Other members are reminded that you may submit written statements for the record. We are please now to introduce our distinguished panel of witnesses here with us t today t first we had the honor john pistole, then the ministry Transportation Security Administration of the department of Homeland Security since 2010. As administrative overseas approximate 60,000 employees, secure operations of more than 450 federal lies airports throughout the United States, federal air Marshal Service and is good for highways, railways, mass transit systems and pipelines. Ms. Gina Marie Lindsey was appointed executive director of los angeles World Airports june 2007. Just over 20 years expense in airport management and has briefly served as mentioned record for the seattle tacoma International Airport and director of aviation for anchorage International Airport. Next, mr. Patrick gannon was appointed to the position of chief of Airport Police for los angeles World Airports in november 2012. As chief, he leads over 1001 and Police Officers, secure the officers and things that protecting lax and other nearby airports and shares compliance with the tsa may become airport rules and regulations and international federal, state and local laws. He retired from the l. A. Police department in 2012 after 34 years of service. Finally, mr. J. David cox is the National President of the association, American Federation of government employees, the largest the employed Union Representing 650,000 federal and d. C. Government workers nationwide and overseas. And i will also point at significantly that mr. Cox is from the eighth district of North Carolina so he is my constituent. Always want to make note of that. I thank all the witnesses for being here today. The witnesses full written statement will appear in the record. The chair recognizes mr. Pistole to testify first. Thank you, chairman hudson and chairman mccaul, Ranking Member thompson, for hosting, holding this field and today on this important topic. Appreciate the opportunity to appear before you with these other distinguished witnesses. The events of november 1 answered the bravery of our frontline workforce as well as the commitment to tsas Commission Mission to protecting the nations Transportation System to tsa took a number of factions id like to outline in my oral statement. I call for competence of you of tsa policies, procedures and training to identify improvements to the safety and security tsa employees and by extension the traveling public. After meeting with the family of officer fernandez, thank you for recognizing officers grigsby and speer, the day after the shooting i met with them, i then had her Senior Leadership team take the following steps to first we communicate with our workforce what we knew and then with frequent updates. Second i convened a meeting of external stakeholders where we requested input for active to consider and approve officer said yesterday. Third i directed an internal team to assess options and to make recommendations. Forth, i redirected a number of our visible viper teams from the Surface Missions to lax and otheand ahigher profile airporte as a deterrent to shooter. From these reviews and assessments we received hundreds of ideas and have implement over a dozen of them. Employ some all levels of tsa contribute ideas to what we call our idea factory and over 100 now other team members have convened. We continue to welcome stay cold and workforce feedback as we remain engaged in advance for the recommendations. In that regard i want to recognize the ongoing engagement our Senior Leadership team here at lax had by has had with her over 2100 employees here at lax, the largest continuously of tsa employees of any airport in the country. And to thank each and every tsa employee, particularly to lax, and terminal three for the resiliency and a dedication to the mission. I also want to thank try nine, particularly director lindsey and to the trendline police for the Strong Partnership project of vermont and since that day to the lax shooting raises a number of issues about the training we provide to our tsa employees, and while thereve received a number of different types of training, active shooter snow training was not a primary focus. Since november 1 i mandated all tsa employees received his training and am pleased to report that over 98 of our 6200 boyce have completed this training. In support of further efforts to reinforce the emergency procedures weve incorporated are reminded intership regarding evacuation routes and rendezvous point identified and the local mitigation plan. As part of our review we studied how officers notified Law Enforcement of an emergency most effectively and determined we need to do two things. One, regular tests, and two, acquire and install more alarms in airports around the country. And operate a leaking negations between tsa and affect most federal agencies, state and local authorities continues to challenge nationwide but some progress is being made. We directed federal security directors to own a wireless device preprogrammed with their own emergency numbers to allow them to voluntarily program them into the personal devices but in addition to best practice were recommending a link system to ensure when a distress alarm is a should ever determine with the program to on a clear focus on the location of the alarm. After carefully studying the checkpoints, tsa is also taking the following action including incorporation maxxum Response Time in their Airport Security programs and then recommending standards for increase Law Enforcement presence at high Airport Locations such as peak travel times, ticket counters to provide deterrence and quick Response Time. In conclusion the senseless shooting of officer hernandez and three others once again reminds us of the dangers world in which we live. Is shooting serves as a catalyst for tsa to assess its existing Safety Security policy, partnerships and we know theres no one there guarantee preventing terrorist. The actions ive outlined today provide enmeshed approach to mitigate risk without trying to eliminate it. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Thank you. The chair recognizes chief gannon had to testify. Welcome to Los Angeles International airport. Im to be the executor to los angeles World Airport Law Enforcement and Homeland Security and chief of los angeles Airport Police. Airport police at the bribery law enforcer agency with a staff of 1100 of which abruptly five and 25 past one, 400 seated opposite address our professional support staff. Assads Airport Police is committed to ongoing training. In fact, an active shooting exercise was held three weeks prior to the november 1 shooting to drin during this twoday trag exercise we trained over 350 airport Police Officers at los angeles please officers and Los Angeles City firefighters to respond to an active shooter in an airport environment. We conducted a string and an old trumble at one of our airports. This training could be very helpful as we faced the gun wielding man at terminal three. On november 1, 2013, the alleged shooter entered terminal three near a ticket counter. He walked to a nearby line at the foot of an escalator leading up to the security checkpoint and gateway. At the bottom of the escalator with tsa podium staff by tsa officer fernandez. At 9 20 a. M. He removed an Assault Rifle from his luggage and chop off his fernandez multiple times. He without the as clear just a few steps but then turned and came back to an shot officer fernandez once again. As the initial shots were fired passengers ducked for cover. Within seconds tsa officers on the upper level checkpoint urged passengers to move away from where the shots were being fired. A number of tsa officers acted heroically and put themselves in jeopardy to make sure passengers got out of the line of fire. I would like to specifically recommend tsa officers tony grigsby and james fear for the heroic and selfless actions us to put themselves in harms way to protect passengers who were slow to exit the area. 10 seconds after the first shots were fired, Airport Police were dispatched to the calls made by tso supervisor was forced to run for an area i was in unable to provide information about the shooter. Following initial shooting, he went up the escalator through the evacuated tsa screening area and then into a terminal concourse apparently looking for other tsa officers. Once again he fired an assault type weapons as peoples scary to cover. This was a proximate the point where he saw in wooded tsa officers reached the spirit and one additional passenger. Airport Police Officers quickly conversed on terminal three from many Different Directions because the officers arrived they were directed towards the gunman by number of people in the troubled the officers eventually confronted him near gate 35 when officer involved shooting took place. He was stopped and taken into custody. The shooting of officer hernandez took place at a proximate 9 20 a. M. One minute and 20 seconds later our Airport Police dispatch center broadcast shots fired call to terminal three. At 9 25 a. M. Airport Police Officers reported the suspect was down near gate 35. Four minutes and eight seconds a lap sometime of the news of the shooting was broadcast by dispatch center to the time or r officers report issued was down and the terminal. Ive been speculation this event may have been prevented if an Airport Police officer was posted at the tsa screening checkpoint in terminal three. The facts are they putting this officer at a checkpoint would not have prevented this murder and due to the lead of the checkpoint the officer what had been in position to keep ciancia from attacking officer hernandez. Certain circumstance i believe that they putting this off would be more affordable and a carefully planned attack. Law enforcement has made consider the changes in the way of a response to active shooting since the Columbine High School is 46 minutes. To respond to neutralize ciancia within four minutes and eight seconds from the first call to mom had the shooter in custody in my estimation is remarkable. Even so we continually look for ways to improve our Response Time even though we can work, even though we were each day to fit to deter violent acts at lax we can never guarantee this will always happen but what weve learned is from this incident is one of violent act occurs speed and quickness coupled with superior tactics will be the key to saving lives. Thank you very much. The chair recognizes ms. Lindsey to testify. Chairman hudson, chairman mccaul, members of the committee thank you very much for coming to us as International Airport and being willing to discuss the events of november 1. Alex is the largest airport in the United States serving 66. 7 million passengers through nine different terminals. We host 95 passengers and care go airlines second to 615,000 operations in 2013. November 1 was like any other busy friday morning at terminal three until an act of violence by lone gunmen set off a sequence of events of which youve heard a great do. The suspect and lax in a vehicle driven by a friend and was dropped off on the departure level of airport just like many departing passengers. Mr. Ciancia was dressed as a typical travel with luggage typically brought to the airport by passengers to even if he was in custody, communicate should, traffic control, Tactical Operations remain quite competent. Airport police and the Partner Agencies did not know that there were other shooters. They did not know if it was a vehicle with a bomb or a secondary device. Lax handles about 200,000 passengers per day in its Central Terminal area and it is a massive undertaking to make sure we keep everyone safe. As soon as dispatch was notified of the shooting, all landside airport access was shut down. We could only reopen once we were certain were not putting anyone in harms way. However simultaneously wayward still accepting of writing flights. So the number of passengers in terminals and ultimately held onboard aircraft continue to grow. While Airport Police quickly apprehended the suspect, significant travel disruption resulted for tens of thousands of passengers. At the time of the shooting of best estimates were that there were 22000 passengers in the terminals at lax. Approximate 3500 people in terminals one, two and three escaped onto the airfield and within bust to appropriate holding facilities. Thats the plan we have in place and on that day it worked. Other passengers and workers in terminals 12 and three went out to the Central Terminal roadway. Those and other terminals and on aircraft were sheltered in place but while some passengers at lax, others were still expecting to depart on flight continued to arrive at the airport adding to the congestion and the traffic gridlock outside the Central Terminal area. Of the 1550 flights scheduled for lax that day, 1212 actually operated. Although 74 were delayed. Airlines canceled 252 flights and averted 86 flights to other airports. 16 are writing flights were held onboard for longer than 30 minutes. Since gates were not available once ramp workers evacuated. With lax effectively shut down, the ripple effects throughout the national air chance petition system that impacted and this bit additional 1500 flights. Remarkably the airport return to full normal operations 30 hours after the shooting on november 2. Lax established 12 evacuation and shelter sites and distributed 16,000 bottles of water. There were Partner Agencies assist with passenger accommodations. Tran nine extensive use of the media website and social media to communicate what information it had to traveling public. In the past several months the nines review in detail every aspect of this incident. And presented a conference of action report to the board of airport commissioners with several key findings. In preparing this report we challenged ourselves to be better prepared for any future attack or other disasters at our airports. The report assesses what happened, what couldve been prevented, what response efforts worked well and what areas of emergency mentioned need to be improved. This report is available online. The most significant challenges on november 1 centered on mass notification and public notification, interim sheltering and Customer Care is, given the duration of the event, the ability to mobilize an entire Airport Community in response. Lax has already implemented a number of specific recommendations and will be a limiting others in the coming months. The report also concludes that he needed Tactical Response by Airport Police was swift, rogue and well executed. Collaboration with and support from response partners was effective. Terminal three was rapidly repaired and returned to service. We thank you for your attention to this man and look forward to answering any questions. Thank you. The chair now recognizes mr. Cox to testify. Tran one and members of the committee and thank you very much for the opportunity to testify and what an honor it is to testify for a majority of the committee that has a southern drawl just like me. So thats a very large honor today. First id like to extend our deepest condolences to the family of officer hernandez under best wishes for the full recovery of officers rigsby and spear. Since the attack here at lax last november, afge has sawdust and how this tragedy happened and how others can be prevented in the future. Unarmed, unprotected and exposed, tsa officers at terminal three checkpoints were easy targets for a man with an irrational hatred of tsa and our officers. The results of our analysis are laid out fully in a written statement. The day i will focus on our recommendations for improved security going forward. Afge Stronger Police tsa should create an armed transportation security Law Enforcement officer position assigned to protect tsos and passengers at airport checkpoints and other key locations. Deployment of duly trained and certified tea as lbos would establish a standard of protection. This is not a call for the army of tsa officers. Rather, our proposal would establish a new Law Enforcement unit within tsa. As we have heard since november 1, current airport Law Enforcement operations have gaps and inconsistencies that lay tsos and passengers vulnerable. Many airports have no armed Law Enforcement officers stationed at or in the airport. Even where they do, different decisions about taxing, staffing and deployment have left many checkpoints without an armed Law Enforcement officers stationed there to provide security for our unarmed tsos and passengers. Placing one or more armed ts leo at every checkpoint and at every airport location will provide several security improvements including integration of Law Enforcement function in the tsa operations, creation of a visible deterrent to those with criminal intent as well as those subject verbal assault and provisions for the quickest possible response when an attack occurs. In the interest of time, mr. Chairman, i will simply list are additional recommendations. Tsa should establish installations at each checkpoint with bulletproof glass to allow armed officers to better observe the area, detect the problem before it escalates and greet a visible deterrent for those who might be planning an attack. Tsa should continue to deploy tsos to monitor exit lanes. Tsa must ensure close correlation between airport and local First Responders. The lack of cognition across agencies at lax on november 1 made a horrific situation even worse is emergency medical attention of our wounded officers was delayed. We encourage tsa development the recommendations of the november 2013 gao report on Scientific Research and enhanced training to better identify threats the aviation security. We believe that will increase the likelihood that it bdo will be at the right place at the right time to detect and deter a potential attacker like the lax shooter. Finally, tsa must provide active Shooter Training to tsos relevant to each airport, which includes interagency drills with other First Responders. Afge also involve Julia Brownlee for introducing our fallen officers act which would grant tsos Public Safety officers status, honoring Public Servants killed in the line of duty recognizes that a very small portion of the population volunteers to be put in harms way to protect their country. H. R. 4022 should receive enthusiastic bipartisan support. We look forward to the same bipartisan support for the proposals we have made today. This concludes my statement and i would be happy to answer any questions. Thank you, mr. Cox. I now recognize myself for five minutes to ask questions. Chief gannon, id like to start with you. Let me say first that i agree with you that four minutes and eight seconds is quite remarkable at a time from the time he received the call to your officers took down the shooter. I just want to acknowledge the heroes, the officers the serve under you and the work that they did in preparation that led up in this incident. I think everyone recognizes their actions on that day were extraordinary. Thank yothank you very much. One of the issues we for different information about was the location of the two officers in terminal three that day. I would just ask that we can get on the record and declared exactly we were the two officers that day . One officer was using arrested in an adjacent room and the other officer was out on the airfield which was part of his responsibility. My interest is not to guide you with any particular officer but you try to understand the policies. To the officer who was in the restroom, was there a policy that office operate under taking a break that you notify someone, patch of someone cover your area or was a standard operation just quickly take a break and get back on . I guess we have a policy and yes, that policy is to ensure that we have coverage in that terminal. But for a restaurant break titled somebody to making that kind of determination. Restroom break. I dont have a particular problem with that. I have a problem throughout my entire airport or our entire airport for each of the terminals we have tremendous response to the throughout those, whether its in the departure level or at the right level in the baggage claim area or out on the airfield. Theres a lot of different responsibilities that our officers have. Theres a number of people along the way that were there to protect. But there are only one layer of security at the airport, so a lot of focus is been on those two officers but theyre not the only officers who working that day nor with the that officers would responsibilities to that terminal. Explain that a little bit. What are some of the layers that day that wouldve overlapped with terminal through . In addition to the office we have assigned to terminals each day we have motor officers, bike officers that were working that particular day. And web roving patrol units working in the Central Terminal area that day. The response to a shooter or to any incidents that occurred in airport is the responsibility of a number of different officers, not just the officers that were working in the terminal each day. Thank you. Administrator pistole, your testimony stated tsa is recommended Airport Operators conduct active Shooter Training. As i think point out alex had just done such an exercise three weeks prior everything back intruded to the performance of officers, tsa as was Law Enforcement that day. Are you working in coordination to do these dreams with the local Law Enforcement at the airports . Could you maybe explain how that there are two aspects to the active Shooter Training. One is for all tsa employees, not just tsos but all tsa employees around the country, around the world to make sure they know what to do in the event active shooter takes place at their place of work. As you know there are three different types of training. One is online course which 98 of our employees had completed. The other is an exercise which is often done or in conjunction with Airport Operators and then theres the Tactical Training which is done and thats the training that was done three weeks before, combined all three so i commend trannineteen the police in terms of doing that because it probably did save lives, people knowing what to do to escape and we called it by choice and i think people are earlier, escape as he did in effect wishing. That training is ongoing, its under concert with airport authorities and police. We are requiring that to be done semiannually for all 477 airports around the country spent appreciate that. Since im going to let everyone else to their five minutes, rather than ask a question with 13 seconds left im going to now yield to the Ranking Member of the full committee for questions you may have. Thank you very much. Chief gannon, simply put, how would the response to an active shooter situation different today and lax compared to what happened november 1 . Well, i think the response to the actual incident itself and to the shooting is tough to be faster, quicker than we did on that particular day. Part of the response, part of the difficult we had on that day was coordinating all of the resources that responded to the airport. That was one challenge that we had in making sure that we understood exactly where they were being put to work and building out an effective command to be able to deal with those. The other issue is prevention. We have spent a lot of time wondering if we can prevent this incident. In this, given the case of paul cianci, he was not on anybodys radar screen. I dont think we could have been of this in that regard. But there are ways in which we can educate our employees, educate people within the airport to be better partners with us, to be more observant as to whats going on that may be behavior exhibited by mr. Ciancia could have been identified and then acted upon before had an opportunity to shoot but i dont think in this particular case it was but we put together a Community Policing based approach to assigning officers to specific terms to build relationships with people so we get better information out of our employees. I guess my point im trying to get at is, you have identified coordination as something that will be different now than before. Now, based on what weve been told during our visit here, it is still very difficult for the police to talk to the sheriff department, to talk to the lapd. What are you doing, ms. Lindsey, what are you doing to affect the interoperability issue that still exists . It still exists here and it exists throughout Southern California throughout the los angeles area. The county is responsible for putting together and interoperability plan. They have a program called that is in development. We have developed our team indication system to be compatible but that is still some time off. In the meantime what we have done on the short term, for example, with fire and with lapd, especially that work the fire stations associated with this airport or lapd officers that on campus or close is we provide them with a radio which they can monitor for us in which we can monitor their frequencies. We do have frequencies that we can talk to lapd on our frequencies. So we do have some interoperability to some degree but at least and i think we need in a major instance. I think the only thing i would add is that we are encouraging l. A. Rick to take the steps they need to take because we have already implement it the technology that their ultimate going to implement. So there really isnt a whole lot more it encouraging them to take the steps they need to take that we can do from airport perspective. Mr. Cox, an active shooter situation is a difficult scenario. What are you recommending for a situation like this the minimum kinds of training tsos have in that situation . Number one address be an opportunity for tsos to take the training and remember their jobs are very demanding. If people are lined up to get into the airport, its hard for them to take time to get the training. The training to understand what to do, how to get to the alarms, that they are handy, having more radios that would be permissible to use their own cell phone to call for help, and help immediately, how to evacuate themselves, passengers, where to go for a safe harbor type thing. Each airport is a little bit different, as we all understand. They are built differently but training, and again, the training of the officer having the time to do the training but that happens at every organization and the government will struggle to get the time to do it. Yield back. The chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, mr. Mccaul, for any questions you have. Tremblant. First take the opportunity to say thank you to your tsa officers out there. I think day in and day out under very difficult circumstances protect the traveling public from threats whether it be a lone gunman or terrorists. We certainly appreciate the work you do. I know you dont always hear that but i want you do that from the chairman. Let me just, chief, i look at threats, risk and vulnerability. This airport has been under threat chile since 9 11. It is a target and it was certainly on that day. When i look at what was the weak points of the analyze this particular fact pattern, it seems to me that once someone goes through the proper screening, a weapon is going to be detected and picked up. So having the Police Officer beyond that screen, postscreening is helpful. But it seems to me the real vulnerability is before that process, the perimeter, if you will before they go through a screening. Also in this case the exit with issued us went through the exit to get into the terminal. I believe to push threats out there join to push that out. So what were your Lessons Learned in that regard when you look at what happened on that day . Well, i absolutely agree with you. I think that the threat for this airport starts on century boulevard at the entrance to the airport and extends through the kurd area and the drop off and into the terminal itself. And up to the screening checkpoint is where our greatest threat occurs and to our Police Presence should be, our emphasis should be in those particular areas. Thats consistent with the strategy we have put together. That was consistent with the way in which last may when removed from that podium assignmenassignmen t where we had officers sitting or standing at a podium behind the screening and to move them up front with that in mind. To reduce the threat to there. There are a number of challenges that come at any of our imports. Are a number of issues that involve crime and other things that we have to address each and every day. I also feel that its important that we protect everybody in this airport environment to the best of our ability. As mr. Cox talked about, putting a Police Officer in front of each screening checkpoint. We have resources are an issue. However, there are ways to be agile, flexible, to keep the threats guessing . I think if you have one person on someone place there able to predict better in terms of the threat at that particular juncture. In other words, the flexibility and agility, do you think thats important to sort of move these assets around at an airport . I think the. I think if youre predictable then you are vulnerable. Thats what i dont think we should be is predictable. I dont want, to our best knowledge from anybody whos going to cause an issue here and take a violent act at this airport, its probably going to watch and look and Pay Attention to what, how we do our jobs each and every day. Let me just say because my time is going to run out, just to succumb to apprehend the suspect under five minutes is pretty extraordinary. I do think we can always do better. I think had he not just been we couldve seen a lot more bloodshed that day. Mr. Pistole, when you look at resources, and we always had look at that as you well know, in the intercontinental airport there was an officer, and ice officers that responded. Cbp nterminal three were there, so we have a lot of different active by preteens that we saw today. You have a lot of assets rather, police, youve got cbp officers, ice, better armed and trained, unlike the tso. Can you speak to that in terms of bringing those resources together to prevent this kind of threat from happening against . There are a number of challenges and opportunities as you indicate with the multiple layers of security that could be brought to bear. One of the challenges is to know how to integrate those resources. As chief gannon mentioned its one thing to have the Airport Police doing random patrols and having that unpredictable aspect along with coordinating with our by preteens which, of course, is another layer of security. When you start introducing other vipr. Primary responsibility elsewhere, then becomes a question what are we diverting them from entrance of the sponsors of addressing what risk, what threat. We do try to balance this thread evolvability consequences mentioned, that point for assessing risk to make informed judgments. He mentioned about, we did have a special cadre of armed tsos. I have several concerns about that which i can go into later but thats introducing more guns at checkpoints i dont think its a solution. I certainly agree with that. I see my time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas for any questions she may have. Thank you very much. Let me just refreshed the witnesses memory, start out by indicating that tso officers, tsa i in the service of the country, and service of protecting the National Security of this nation, and i think that as we proceed with this think it is a very key element collaborate with local Law Enforcement. And i can want to go on the record to say it was a remarkable effort and we thank you again very much. Mr. Pistole, in that direct thought of National Security, and 2013 you did a Vulnerability Assessment at lax with transportation security. In my opening remarks i alluded to the fact that tsa, tso officers should have the ability to pick what emergency line, phone line and it should work. They deserve to know that a panic button when it been instructed to present when an incident occurs will work in proper response to local Law Enforcement. And it back to shooting situation that is crucial. So my question is whether the bullet the assessment that was done in november 2013 took into account communication between First Responders, i think we raised that question, but on the other in the building of the officer to call for assistance in the event of an incident at a checkpoint which i think is crucial. Thank you. The most recent joined one of the assessment was just in february of 2014 such as very recent. It was part of a crazy schedule one. So one of things will look at with the fbi and the Airport Authority and Airport Police is a communication not necessarily in terms of interoperability Radio Systems because theres a number of challenges to that, both from a budget, a number of different aspects, do we want, Airport Police want to tsa officers on the radio channels and Communications Just like mr. Pistole, i want to ask two of the questions so please summarize. So the bottom guess they looked at a number of things. We did not look at communications between First Responders, between l. A. Fire, l. A. Police, l. A. Sheriff and lawa thats not part of the assessment. Can we add that now, the ability of the tsa, tso officers who have Immediate Response is to fund whatever the presence of the question we do look at is, to tsa officers have the ability to mitigate directly with Airport Police, and the answer is yes. As the supervisory tso did on november 1, 10 seconds after the first shots was fired. That was a red phone . That was a red phone spent my point is we want to make sure all that is operable from our perspective. Right. And lawa let me quickly, is it in your mind very important for there to be a federal tso professional organization as opposed to privatization . I believe tsa is a federal workforce. But its important to be under the federal auspices it isnt. It is. Thank you