Western state. He has a ma and phd at the university of virginia. Peter is a great friends of the foundation and a personal friend as well. One of the great scholars of Thomas Jefferson. Jd has written five books he has coauthored another book, these include virginias American Revolution from dominion to republic, 1776 until 1840 which was published in 2007. James madison and the making of america which was published in 2012. He is currently writing another book. I discovered this is not expected until 2020. But is it a topic is about president Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and james monroe. Kevin will speak today on his most recent book, Thomas Jefferson, revolutionary, a radical struggle to remain america. Please join me in welcoming kevin. [applause] Thomas Jefferson is one the most famous politicians in american history. When people think of him they tend to think of him as someone who was president of the United States, maybe they know that he was the chief author of the declaration of independence. Nowadays people are apt to think he was involved with one of his slaves, sally hemmings. But, i think in general people do not have much knowledge of him be on that. My contention in my new book is, Thomas Jefferson was more than that. He was the most significant, radical statesmen and american history. He was a very significant legislator. A book takes up the topic of jefferson is legislator and develops in five chapters on major themes in his statesmanship. This contention of his radical lists and success. What i mean in College Jefferson a radical . Well, start with the truism among historians, duke stone emigre. Another way to understand that is, if you are born princess of england and you expect to become the queen youre not up to decide i would rather own a pizza restaurant in australia. Jefferson, on the other hand, did something that was the latter. When Thomas Jefferson was born in 1743 in Albemarle County, virginia in the piedmont and the western boundary of euroamerican expansion into north america, he was born, more or less, a prince. His father was by far the most important influential man in his county. Peter jefferson, of whom thomas was very proud throughout his life, had authority in his county that rested on for basis. The first was of course, the tie between virginia and the United Kingdom. Most particularly the Common Ground, the monarchy. Second was the futile landholdings that kept very few people, owners of a large share of todays virginia. Astoria named holly brewer who was at North CarolinaState University calculated about 20 years ago, in 1776 when jefferson was drafting the it declaration of independence, about two thirds of today state of virginia was held by about 85 families. There were about 85 people who owed about two thirds of today state. People who are not from virginia, a little bit of perspective there, the state in which i live, connecticut has eight counties. The 300 square miles who were owned by those 85 families in 1776, 300 square miles would be about half of one of todays connecticut counties. In other words, that is the kind of landholdings that would have 16 people owning the entire state of connecticut. Jeffersons father was one of these people. The landholding concentration from which Peter Jefferson, and soon to be his heir, thomas benefited was perpetuated by english legal doctrines that have been brought over from england to virginia in the 17th century. The doctrine of primogeniture and said that the air would inherit the state. Also the current holder cannot alienate. Imagine yourself one of these princes. You on 300 square miles of virginia, you think well, i could do with the 280 square miles. I would like to have new paddles. You cannot sell us 20 square miles because the doctrine of intel meant that you cannot alienate that land, your son was entitled to it after you. What this meant was that generation after generation you would have the same if you families controlling the entire landscape, physical and metaphorical of virginia. So, first the monarchy, second these landholding that was concentrated and the third of the social and political status of Peter Jefferson was established church, the church of england which was the church of virginia and it had been since the first time of the house of burgesses in virginia. 6019, they said that the kings church would be our church. If you are Peter Jefferson you knew it, and thomas consumed that you are going to be a member of the burgesses. Inc. There is never an anglo bishop, it was a Episcopal Church. It was a landowner church. Whose those that control the local committees that ran the local parishes Peter Jefferson was noticed in albemarle. Thomas could expect that one day he would be too. There came a time when he was. The fourth of the jefferson Family Status was slavery. Which meant that the same few land barons who are possessors of many people were, at the top of the demographic ladder as well. Now, Thomas Jefferson what did this have to do with him being a radical . Thomas jefferson took substantial steps to undermine or eliminate each of those four supports of his class. First off we think of him as a president , next as the chief author of the declaration of independence. What was that about . That was about severing the tie of the colony, no state of virginia and the english monarchy. This came as a surprise, the fact that people like jefferson in places like virginia supported this, came as a surprise to people in the United Kingdom precisely because they thought if you are slaveowner in north america, if youre someone like Thomas Jefferson you are reliant on the monarchy. After all, what was slavery about . It was about application of white male force. The chief source of white male force in slavery was the king of england. So, that you should act to sever this time has to be considered a radical step. Secondly, what about these land ten years. In 1776, soon as it was possible, Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Virginia Legislature adopted a law abolishing the fuel land. In fact the substitute said all children would inherit equally. Notice, children, not male children. Children would inherit equally. This was radical. In 1776 we had more or less 85 families around two thirds of todays virginia. By the time Thomas Jefferson buys 50 years later in 1826 the landholdings have begun to be broken up. In fact, some of the Old Plantation seats some of the foremost plantation houses in virginia had been abandoned by them. This is not a sad development from the perspective of someone like Thomas Jefferson. He knew that you cannot have a truly Republican Society of virginia if 85 men on two thirds of the state. What kind of republican to have. You couldnt have any political equality where you had unfathomable concentration of economic power in so few hands. Jefferson was the one who is primarily responsible for the elimination of the land ten years in virginia. Thirdly, when it comes to the church of england, the Episcopal Church and revolution still known as the Episcopal Church or the episcopalian church, jefferson was the one who took the lead in the move to abolish the state status of the church of england. Beginning in 1777 when he was a leading member of the council of advisors the committee of the legislature charge the task of writing proposals to changes to the colonial law statutory and case law. Jefferson wrote a bill for establishing religious freedom. The bill was based on a very aggressively antiestablishment preamble that began by saying god had made the mind of man free and through the entirety of that preamble jefferson laid the groundwork of his religion policy on the most radical reparations and understanding of the history of Church State Relations in western europe and the effect of official churches on people space and practice. He also contended that government really cannot force people to be christian anyway. I could do is make them hypocrites are liars. Imagine 1780 massachusetts adopted the oldest constitution in the world. Written by john adams and it included provision that the governor massachusetts had to swear his religious belief. From jeffersons point of view imagine somebody is elected governor of massachusetts may come and say you been elected and you have to swear on your religious belief. Hes gonna say i would like to become but i dont have that religious belief. Percy going to say, i swear. Jeffersons point was government by what you had to say about religion cannot make you a subscriber of that religion. It can make you hypocrite my, so this was undesirable in and of itself. Jefferson said later in life, that the most difficult political conflict in which he had been involved was the disestablishment of the official church in virginia. It involved a longrunning core with some of his best friends and political allies george with, who is an episcopalian and not thrilled with the establishment and jefferson push this idea anyway. Ultimately he was not got through the house of burgesses. Said this was astride madison. He realize what an emotional investment jefferson had it so they sent word of the sissified jefferson who by that time was entranced and said he fancied there put to rest forever the idea of making laws of the minds a mans. Jefferson wrote back that other europeans were admiring of this policy. Jefferson was a radical chic tie. He wanted the people of europe to know the americans were doing and a lot of people were envious of this. So, jefferson was the fellow who made it the case that being a member of Albemarle County was not going to be a significant as before. Not to say he was hostile to religion but he was hostile to the swan elite status. Fourthly, they couldve done more in the question of slavery. And i suppose it couldve done more about anything that was not completely successful in his own time. On one side, yes. Jefferson inherit slaves he owed people when he died, he was a spendthrift and that ultimately can find him to be in auctioned which was a horrible fate for slaves to suffer. All of this should be remembered and then the significant moral argument against slavery, he was the president who argued in 18 oh six that they should pass a law eliminating the importation of slaves in north america. It would be affected and so congress did bar that in 18 oh eight. His role was an important factor in the adoption of the northwest movement which and slavery of the u. S. There is a complication there. Theres other things that jefferson did in regard to slavery that makes his record in this regard at worst, mix. So, public he would say he was opposed to slavery and cannot justify it and took steps against it in private. He continued to benefit from our we dont want to ignore that. The point is, by the time people like Jefferson Pass from this world slavery already had been a some of their opponents in virginia recognize, put on a train to extinction. That is a very important thing for jefferson to have done. So, i think if you take these for things from jeffersons political status it is fair to say that he was a radical statesman indeed. Now, i want to take up some of these questions and more detail. So after having introduced this topic by talking about some of the main areas in which a jefferson could be considered a radical we kind of ignored the major changes whos responsible for and if you want to evaluate jeffersons record as legislator you need to think of some of them too. For example, he was the fellow that had the idea that america should have decimal currency. Every day you spend american money you are benefiting from his conception, this would sweep the world in the United Kingdom also adopted decimal currency. Today we take for granted that this would be true but it was not sure jeffersons time. He also had the idea that public architecture could serve a didactic purpose. He had the idea that virginias colonial public architecture and architecture in general was not republican. It was elite status for people who lived in those gigantic houses and they gave message about the way the Colonial Government ought to be structured. He thought it would be for classical architecture to be substituted for the kinds of buildings that virginians have built for themselves in the colonial. He advised his fellow virginia leaders to follow the greek and roman examples when he was in france, he saw an ancient roman copy of a greek temple that he admired and ultimately that became the model for the virginia capital enrichment. He played a role in initiating the habit of americans using classical models for their federal architecture as well. Of course beside the fact that when i say capital enrichment we dont want to forget that have enrichment be the capital was also jeffersons idea. Before that it was williamsburg. The motivation there is interesting. One justification that jefferson offers that at the time was from a Military Point of view having the buppercaseletter there on the coast is exposed in future military conflicts should happen to be with the british, but on the other hand he was someone who thought the ongoing strength of the tidewater episcopal aristocracy needed to be weeke weekend. One way to do that would be to move the capital away from williamsburg. So jefferson is responsible for doing that. There are numerous examples i could offer of jeffersons ongoing, widely affected, often overlook successes as legislator. Back to what i said before, my book takes up five areas of jefferson statesmanship that run through his career. The first chapter which is the longest is about the issue we now know as federalism. We may call a decentralized government or localize government or catholic theology they call it principle of subsidiary. Jefferson would not of known that term if he had. The thing is, jefferson first came to the continental intention 1774. As the author of what he hoped the obstructionist of the delegates of the First Congress and what he argued in what he hoped would be instructions for virginias congressmen was that the colony of virginia and the colonies generally were tied politically and constitutionally to the United Kingdom only through the, crown. That is, his argument was his assertion was that the parliaments in westminster was a foreign body. It was foreign tour constitutions and unload to our laws. There is an assertion there that the colony several constitution. This is not the british theory. The idea that the parliament is foreign to the north american colonies is not the british theory. Instead, they were living with the contention that there was one common sovereign and in the British Empire that was the parliament of westminster. Jefferson says, we have this common crown to the Common Ground has few functions. It performs the function for the different parts of the empire that no part can perform for itself such as conducting diplomatic relations on its behalf. Conducting military operations on the empires behalf. But when it comes to local issues than the local legislatures weather in the bahamas or connecticut or in westminster, they are responsible for the local inhabitants, not for people in virginia. So, jefferson begins his career as a noted politician in north america with this argument, essentially for decentralized government or federalism. The idea there is a common center. He would say later it has a few enumerated powers and essentially all other Authority Remains at now the state level. This is an idea he would come back over and over. In fact if you look at the very last letter he ever wrote his best friend in the world and close political ally, James Madison and had the concluding paragraph where he famously says, take care of your dad. It is a sad, affecting memorialization of the fact that he has welcome madison and thats one of the best parts of his life. The rest of the letter before that was about this idea that we virginians must resist the Federalist Party program being pushed by president john quincy adams. We are right back to the old argument from 1774, most Government Authority is in the hands of the virginia and we will not tolerate having the federal government legislate for us in areas of which we have not conceded or have authority. The idea of this that jefferson had first took out in 1774 under the british rule in north america remain consistent under the articles of can federation, under the u. S. Constitution. From jeffersons point if these are external authorities have a tie to virginia for virginias convenience. So if he famously said also in the declaration of independence, if the people decide that the Foreign Government, he actually called them our Foreign Government at one point, if the Foreign Government is not serving the purposes we hoped that we are entitled to replace it. He said that about the federal government, he had this idea throughout. People familiar with his political career will know there were times when jefferson nearly led his Political Party into a violent resistance to federal policy, the most famous instance came in 1790 when he organized resistance to what i think it was violent resistance to the act of 1978. His vision of this relationship between the Central Authority in virginia, i dont think changed at all. If you compare the argument he made in 1825 in his argument madison which covered resolutions he had written that he wanted the General Assembly to adopt if you compare those resolutions to what he said about the british king and parliament 1774 youll not find much difference at all. This idea virginia as he said this over and over, my country and these other places as well as friends if they want to be friendly, that is one of the main themes of his political career. A second important career of important of his political career was disestablishment of a state church in virginia. Once madison had been successful in eliminating the religious establishment of virginia they didnt stop. They had the idea that this principle of freedom of religion as we call it ought to be a universal principle. So famously when jefferson was president he wrote the clearest annunciation of this idea. He received word from the Danbury Baptist association and damp areas the town with the university is located. They were happy he had been elected president and he thought of them as being oppressed because connecticut still had appear as an establishment. He still had to pay taxes and you can be punished and disabled in many ways if you are not a member of the congregational church. Jefferson wrote back and said the people had a wall between the church and state. He thought this is a principle that all the states ought to adopt. He thought there is no good argument against it. But he also thought this makes it consistent with the point i was making he also thought that remain for each state to do for itself. So the fact that jefferson believed in this principle of freedom of religion and that the federal government had been denied any right to establish religious requirement or erect a state church did not mean that he thought or didnt think the federal government could tell the states they had to allow freedom of religion. This federal principal remain the end theme of his statesmanship even while he advocated the general principles he hoped each state would adopt. His friends of medicine took the same view. Madison thought of these questions quite a lot in retirement. Often when considering what madison and jefferson setter what either of them wrote, and led to the question, did medicine help them right this . Their thinking is often similar in the area of church and state relations it seems madison is moving in jeffersons direction. When madison was an older man and he remained an older man for a long time he wrote what historians call the cash memoranda on various questions. One was the relationship between government and religion. In his detachmen memorandum he e thought he was mistaken during the were 1812 and calling people to pray for the success of american arms. The ban on the establishment of religion means the federal government should not be telling people are asking to pray in a particular way or at a particular time or pray at all. He said basically this shouldnt happen at all. He also came to the conclusion that he did not think there should be chaplains in the congress. Were chaplains in the military. Again you have the same reasoning. If im a congressman and i subscribe to religious acts or no religion and today the chaplain represents religion why, not only ivan my constituents are being made to pay for this religion to which we dont subscribe. This gets back to violating the principle that people should not be forced to pay for any religion in which they dont subscribe. Whos madison who said this but these musings were likely true the long conversation between the two of them on these questions. Madison moved in that direction over time. When madison was present he wrote to pitot on very liberal positions of the establishment cause. So, this matter of the relationship between the governments in which you jeffersons influence on us as monumental. We have nowadays left aside the federal principle of the relationship cause. But certainly the underlying ideas of the virginia statute of religious freedom are the guiding ideas of the culture today when it comes to these questions. The third chapter is about the question of colonization. Colonization was jeffersons answer to the slavery issue. Its a foreign idea to us in 2017, jefferson, and his one book notes in the state of virginia that three different points discuss the existence of slavery in virginia. Remember, this may be you do not know jeffersons book notes in the state of virginia was originally conceived as a set of answers to queries that he had received from french diplomat. The french diplomats send queries to leading men and all of the states and one of them who received it was jefferson then they rearranged it and instead of making it two or three sentence answers, he made them into several hundred page book. The book is fascinating. Most historians would say its the most important book of the 18th century. Follow of all kinds of interesting things on interesting issues. Its also emblematic of the way that people were thinking about geography and human geography and other questions like that at the time. But, in the essays, we call them queries on which he touched on slavery jefferson said a couple of things. One of the queries was about the peculiar manners and what is it about that. He mustve been thinking what kind of questions is that. He wrote back and said i was born in virginia. Maybe one thing you would find his way our manners are affected by slaveowners. Then he went into a long discussion of officer for citizenship he was free to givenatures most boisterous postures. I think of a ship bobby not heavy waves. If you are born into a slaveowning family from your you you are able to command your and he said this on ftse for public citizenship. Because public and citizenship involves giveandtake. You have an equal right and capacity to contribute to our deliberation and sunlight. Find a 3yearold slave master telling a 50 oh man what to do, i dont learn this lesson. Jefferson thinks theres a distortion of virginia and slaveowner personality. Now before i leave back, not everybody agreed with this. One of jeffersons closest political allies, john of cap mine who is a significant political thinker and writer in the period of the 1790s to the 1820s, taylor later answered this in a book of his own. This is not true. What my slaves do no more angers me that my force angers me. So i think one thing you can see in jeffersons description is that he, unlike taylor is affected by the common humanity that he shares with the slaves. Taylor sees her he wants them to see his slaves as implements. But if you go the other part of jeffersons book where he discusses slavery at length, he talks about the legal status of slaves in virginia. The relationship between the enslaved black people in the way people. He talks notoriously about the natural capacities of whiteness compared to black people. There he has leading to speculation. And here you find another disjunct between what jeffersons thinks and what his in the Republican Party thanks. Jefferson things that the way he finds virginia slaves may be congenital. That is, he says, i hazard that they are physically and mentally inferior. Now his friend madison comes to the opposite conclusion. Hes persuaded that this is environmental. So jefferson adversely said ive never encountered a great slave pulitzer slave musician. You might think well where did they get the opportunity and jeffersons answers well, if you look at the history of greeks and romans you find great slave historian but madison says we dont let them learn to read. So, the point is jefferson takes this jaundiced view but he also says im open to receiving evidence to the contrary. Through the balance of his life he does repeatedly receive information that might tend to mitigate against this inclination of what he has seen between this and genetic. He had the first black person to be an employee of the federal government who is a survey or who was involved in laying out the district of columbia. Since jefferson and steve banneker had done he wrote back and said im happy to receive this, im impressed with it. I am glad that you thought i should know about this and that i want you to know nobody could be happier to learn that black people are as equal as i would be. On the other hand, he wrote another fellow and said, do you think he really did these cognitions himself . So he is a big skeptical but he always likes it being open to the possibility. I have to think hes talking about madison. Who knows where were command up with this. Jefferson also says well, i think its impossible that we can have a biracial society. A happy biracial society. I think its a given that ultimately these people are going to be three and then the question is, what happens. Then he says, speaking for White Virginians, he says, we are prejudiced against them and they hate us. We give them new reasons every day. So, if theyre going to be free slaves, if they hate the White Virginians and the White Virginians are prejudiced and giving them new reasons to hate them every day what solution is the. Jeffersons conclusion is not as you might infer as people attack them, oh well, i like owning slaves. It is, well when their free we have to find a place for them not to be under her thumb. His conclusion is that they should be freed in order to achieve that we need to send them somewhere else. This is the concept that has come to be colonization. In the 19th century this is a bizarrely foreign concept now, in the 19th century this idea struck many as perfectly reasonable. Now their civic groups like the National Organization of women, the National Rifle association, the national abortionrights League People are doing lobbying and raise money to pursue their political activities. In the 19th century and analogous group was called the american Colonization Society. It had tens of thousands of members. Its first president was former president , chief author of the constitution, and James Madison. And then theres president john taylor. One way of understanding the Colonization Society misses way abolitionists would describe it, this was slaveowners. Well do something about it if we have this money. But, madison seems to have had the idea that this was a practical solution. That is the fundraising ultimately leads to acquisition of a place to which freed people from the United States could be set. Ultimately during jeffersons lifetime all his trend of former james munro was president they founded the west african country of liberia. The capital is still named from munro. The first settlers of liberia were free black people of the United States. So this, i think was clearly not a feasible solution to this problem solution to this problem check now it is set you should add the idea of a biracial society. The jefferson deadens, and yet again its not true that he thought slavery is fine and im not going to do anything about it and i can talk about it. Im not good to take any action in that regard. Besides the significant legal reforms i mentioned that his former political lieutenant, monroe signed the missouri compromise bill that met ultimately entice people we control the u. S. Senate another virginians that that was the end of slavery. The virginia compromised at the end of slavery. This Ongoing Campaign of slavery and me attempted to figure out what to do about it within this colonization context was a serious effort for jefferson. I shouldve mentioned earlier jefferson at various times still in high office tried to find places to which freed black people from virginia could be sent. There were times he inquired the British Government about canada or about serial leon which was a place where free black people were being sent by the british. He had the idea this was feasible outcome. He also argued against the missouri exclusion idea, the idea that messieurs should not be allowed to have slavery. That if virginians were not allowed to take their slaves to missouri it would make it more difficult for them to abolish slavery in virginia. If what was happening the share of the population in virginia continued increasing, it will be politically infeasible to do it. The fourth chapter of the book was a racial issue which was assimilation over what to do about the fact that when europeans arrived in north america there were numerous people already here. When jefferson was a young man in albemarle, his father was the most important person around. So he had indian leaders who had traveling about to communicate with the governor jefferson learned at an early age that to have some admiration for these people. Not only that but he became involved in this dispute with the leading biologist at the time. They argued that mammals lived in the western hemisphere were degenerate. That is, he said the people are degenerate, the animals that are naturally occurring on north america are smaller than european mammals, if your frenchman the jefferson and others in his political cohort thought that was an implication of his argument too. One thing the american political leaders of the time were interested in was enticing europeans to move to north america. For that reason and sympathy for north americans jefferson took up their cause. And there the state of virginia while he lays out this skeptical case concerning National Capacity of african people, he also lays out a forceful argument of the quality of American Indians. He says, the difference between American Indians and europeans is cultural. That is, he thought they had a root culture. But they could be assimilated into European Society in the United States, if only they would get up hunting and gathering and become sedentary farmers in virginia. Of course jeffersons conception is that everybody ought to be a small farmer, maybe except the guy who lives on top of monticello. At least in the abstract jefferson has an idea and he says if the American Indians could be incorporated into our culture than they would be fit citizens of the United States. This is an ongoing dispute. One way this manifests now is that if you go see monticello one of the first things you encounter is a large set of antlers. I caution you, dont think this means he had bad taste as a decorator. Maybe it means that, what it also is his propaganda. In the same elk are bigger than anything you have in europe. This shows that north america animals are not degenerate. Send me a woolly mammoth. Why would you honor think thered be a willing mammoth. They do things differently there. Jefferson was living in a time when there had not been europeans going to the west encino was there. He thought mastodon still roamed the earth. If one of them could only be obtained and sent to, this would prove that north american it animals were better than european. He had to be content with the moose. From maine. This mustve been pressed him that this guy was really a root. In any event, jefferson lauds American Indians in several senses. As president , he will argues for this. Once he becomes president he becomes involved in another cause. That is, the race to see whether the United States can be a transcontinental country. That is, and needs to be discovering some discovery being the first european country to claim the land on the west coast of north america. When the twin and the competing urges of assimilating American Indians and having america be a transcontinental country come into conflict, he chooses the geostrategic to mrs. Meaning ultimately his intellectual will decide on indian removal. I did i think its fair to say that jefferson is responsible for indian removal but the impulse to defend and assimilate them already weakened jeffersons mind then the impulse to win this transcontinental race. Even while he is president. Finally, lastly, the concluding chapter of my book is about Public Education and jeffersons conception. This is related to his land reform. Remember he thought you cannot have Republican Society if only 85 families on two thirds of virginia. Could we have a Republican Society in which we think was the case when the revolution began, about half adult white men were of sound literate in virginia. Jefferson thinks, no we cant. So he was a member of the council of revisors. He wrote a bill for the general diffusion of knowledge. Its goal was to ensure that all virginians have basis in his language including a female, he did not say that bae 56 virginia children. All virginia children have a fundamental knowledge, now the three rs, and beside that he hoped ultimately on a merit basis people who are of most outstanding mental acuity could be selected for grooming to future Political Leadership another leadership at a reformed college. He ultimately gave up on william and mary. Im sorry, no, not really. Anyway, so when hands up deciding on performing various creation of what was about ugly democratic kind of university which we could consider on the question and answer session. Thank you for listening to me. [applause] we have a few minutes for questions. I will actually repeat some of the questions so that they can be heard to television viewers. I might ask the opening question. That is, there is a common characteristic between independence leaders and revolutionaries, which is that most of them are from elite backgrounds. You could even regard them as class rebels. Thats my question to you is the jefferson, in some ways the class rubble and some pillars of the hypocrisy and why is this . Why is he a radical . I never see that randolph, he does belong. Jefferson is a randolph on his mothers side. What is that mean exactly . In his book his on and on about his father and wales and how great he was. When he gets to the end of that section he says essentially my mother was a randolph, make of that what you will. Its kinda like it Prince William were to write an account of himself and said these have been since Queen Elizabeth the name the important counselors in my fathers prince of wales, make of it what you will. But the randolph family significance in the revolution is hard to overstate. Thomas jefferson was a randolph, Edmund Randolph was a randolph. At one point when Edmund Randolph was the tenant governor there is another randall. Jeffersons idea was not only that the futile land tenure should be eliminated so that gigantic landholdings should be broken up, that is so the market would allow for broader dispersion of landholding, he also proposed in his draft constitution for virginia in 1776 that if you were virginia man and to [inaudible] 50 acres of land you would be given 50 acres of land. Virginia was a huge, open space extending to wisconsin. Why not make everybody a small farmer by giving everyone a small farm. This is all a way of avoiding the question. We dont really know the answer. Its weird. We think about it. That somebody shouldve been born in the situation and decided has ever been a monarch against George Washington. Someone decided i could have supreme, executive authority but i dont want to. Somebody like George Washington decides im going to retire and establishes this important principle, president s retire in earlier he had established important principle of American Government that generates are subordinate to the civilians and heres Thomas Jefferson establishing, we are not going to have princes like me anymore. Virginia. Why would he do that . I dont know why. Its a perverse kind of impulse for somebody to decide i would rather have a society that is more in line with my way of thinking about political reality then the political reality that has made me so comfortable and powerful than myself. That is probably not a satisfactory response. Other questions. It is almost impossible to answer that question, we need more about his childhood. I do think another way of strengthening your argument would be to compare jefferson to federalist pendants and there are where they become celebrities, not the least alexander hamilton, the excess of the Broadway Musical and john adams. They were much more elitist and optical than jefferson. They had times when they could have tried to abolish slave trade or take action against slavery and didnt. So, that might be another way of approaching questions of radicalism. To do that in the book . Anyway, thank you very much indeed. This will be very stimulating. Kevin will be signing books upstairs and i think rachel is going to lead him around the back so he is upstairs. Please turn man thanking him. [applause] [applause] [applause] [inaudible] [inaudible] book tv is on twitter and facebook. We want to hear from you. Tweet us, twitter. Com book tv or post a comment on her facebook page. Facebook. Com book tv. This is henrietta who is looking at, well get to this magnificent images, who is looking at images taken from south america. The entire sky had to be covered. There is a second observatory built in peru to photograph the stars of the southern hemisphere. She was looking at images of the clouds and she discovered a couple of thousand variable stars and made a fundamental discovery about the pattern of variation that the stars that took the longest time to go through their cycles tended to be the brightest stars. She figured all of the star she was looking at were roughly the same distance away. So the ones that look brighter were brighter. That observation led the first usable yardstick for measuring what we would call galactic distances and entered galactic distances and space. Her work enabled the size of the milky way to be determined, i may be getting ahead of the sites. And we figured out the milky way was not the only galaxy in the universe. That the universe, in fact consisted of multiple galaxies. So it would be fair to set the time they were not sure if the universe was just a few hundred, thousand lightyears across, and maybe that was that