Universe. Heses an ma and ph. D. Degree university of pennsylvania and peter, of course, is a great friend to this foundation. And the personal friend as well and within of the great scholars countrily of Thomas Jefferson. Hes a jd from the university of texas school of law. Hes written five books and up with another book these include virginia american revolution, from dmin i can to republic 1776 to 18which was published in 2007 and james and making of the cat which was published in weve. Now chatting with him before the start so not expected until about 2020 so its a topic oddly that is not been written in this book that is the virginia dynasty president s Thomas Jefferson, james madison, and james monroe. Kevin will speak today on his most recent book Thomas Jefferson revolutionary a radical struggle to remake america. Please join me in welcoming kevin goodman. [applause] of course Thomas Jefferson is one of the most famous Many American history but i think when people l think of film if they think of him they think of him as somebody president of the United States. Maybe they know that he was the chief author of the declaration of independence. Now aday people are of apt to think well he was involved with one of his slaves Sally Hemmings but i think in general people dont have much knowledge of him beyond that. My contention in my new book is the Thomas Jefferson was more than that. He was the most significant radical statesman in american history. He was a very significant legislator and so a book takes up over legislator and develops in fife chapghts on major thooms in his statesmanship and this raddism and as a statesman thats what i mean well start with the kind of truism among historians dukes dont emigrate or o another way to understand that is if youre born princess of england and you expect to become the queen, youre not apt to decide you know, rather own a pizza restaurant in u. S. Trail ya, right. Jefferson on the other hand does sthng that was kind of like the ladder. That is when Thomas Jefferson was born and in 1743 in virginia, in what was into north america he was born more or less a prince. That is his father was by far the most important influential man in his home county and Peter Jefferson of whom thomas was very proud throughout his life, had authority in his county that rested on four basis. The first was, of course, the tie between virginia and the United Kingdom. And most particularly the common crown. The monarchy. Second was the the futile Land Holdings that kept a very few people owners of a large share of todays virginia. So historian brewer calculated about 20 years ago that in 17876 when jefferson was drafting the declaration of independence about twothirds of todays state of virginia was held by about 85 families. That there were about l 5 people who owned twothirds of today state and for people who arent from virginia a little bit of a perspective there state lived in had eight counties. The 300 square miles owned by each thats had 85 families in virginia, and 1774. 300 square miles would be half of one with of todays connecticut county. So medical records, thats the kind of land holding that would have 16 people owning the whole state of connecticut. And jeffersons father was within with of these people. The langdz holding concentration from which Peter Jefferson and soon to be his err thomas benefited was perpetuated by english legal documents that have been brought from england to virginia in 17th vie. Entail the nawnl said essentially that oldest son would inherent entirety. But there was also legal doctor of intel that said that current fold oar could not alienate so imagine yourself one of these princes, you are on 300 square miles of virginia, you think well i can do with 2 l80 square miles i would like to have the who paddles you cannot sell us because doctor of seat belt meant that you can not alienate that it land your son entitled to it after you. So what this meant was that generation after generation you were going to have these same fuzz families controlling the entire landscape of virginia so second the land tenure and land holding that was concentrated and thertd bowl work of the social status of Peter Jefferson was church of england, of course, the church of virginia and had been from the very first year that there was a house of best of your in virginia 161 and got to business immediately saying that king church will be our church if youre Peter Jefferson you now and thomas could assume that you were going to be a member of the the them. So in clone july, nah there was never an bishop in near are rei a church and practice a landowners church. It was the land barrens in virginia who controlled the local committees that ran the local perishes and Peter Jefferson was on his it shall [inaudible conversations] could expect that one day he would be too and there cam a time when he was. The fourth of the jefferson families status of course was slavery which meant that these same few land barrens qhorp possessors also of many people were at the top of the demographic ladder as well. Okay. Now Thomas Jefferson what doses this have to do with him being radical he took substantial stops to undermine or eliminate each of those four sports of his class. So first president and chief author of the declaration of independence severing tie between the colony and now state of virginia and the english monarchy. This came as a surprise the fact that people want jefferson in places like support of this came as a surprise to people in the United Kingdom for precisely because they thought if you were a slave owner in nah if you were like Thomas Jefferson you were reliengt on monarchy afterall what was slavery about . It was about complix of white male force and achieve source of support of slavery and england was king of england so you should act to receive this tie i think has to be considered a radical step. Secondly about about these land tenure well in 1776 as soon as it was possible, Thomas Jefferson wrote and the legislature adopted a law apolishing the futile land ten years and, in fact, jefferson substitute for this this said that all children would inherent equally children, not male children. Children. Would inherent equally this was again rad kl and many 7776 we have 8 in families around in virginia. By the time Thomas Jefferson the author a died 50 years later in 1856 these Land Holdings have begun to be broken up and some of the Old Plantation seats some of the four most plantation houses in virginia have been boppedded by then this was not a sad development from thomas jer son because he knew you could not have a true vote man in the colony of the state. What kind of republican could you have and no kind of plilg equality with such unfathomable concentration of economic power in so few happedz. And jefferson was the one who was primarily spoblg for eliminate of the futile land ten years virginia. Thirdly, had it comes to the church of england, the Episcopal Church after the rev louse and noun in there now, jefferson was one who took the lead in the move to abolish the state status and the church of england beginning in 17877 when he was a lead member of the congress of revisers, until may of the legislate which are charged with tax and wreg proposal for i think chais to virginia cone yall law that is a case law. Jefferson wrote a bill a bill for accomplishing sou. Graining frank preamble saying manmade trees and through the entirety of that preamble jefferson laid his ground work on the the history of history of church state relation in yearn yiewrm and fact of the official churches on peoples face and their practice. Besides that he contented that government really couldnt force people to christian anyway, in fact, hex all it can do myc him hypocrite or liar. He was oldest author in the world written safely by john adams and it included provision that the governor of massachusetts had to swear his religious belief. Well who jeffersons point of view and imagine l this some pee low elected koamp of massachusetts and you have to swear to your religious belief will he say well im going to like to be governor but i dont the have that belief or o is he going to say i swear so jefferson point was government by tell you what you have to say about your religion couldnt actually make you sub viverrer to that reasonable or mac you a hit and not liar and not obscure so this was undesirable in i. T. Jefferson fed later in life in which the the most hard et cetera conflict was the first church in virginia it involved him in a running coral with best friends and closest political ally. John page george who was an a with the establishment and jefferson pushed this idea anyway ultimately he was not the fellow who got through the house so the house of delegates it was called by that time instead that was his friend madison but madison realized emotional confession of what he had for religion freedom so when it was passed he said i think he said word of it to his friend jefferson by that time in france are and instead that he fancied to put the the rest forever to idea of making logs for mine of man and jefferson wrote other europes were quited a picturing of this policy. Jefferson was a radical sheik type. He liked for people in america to like what they were doing and be enjoy use. They were, and that seemed to be common sense too. So jefferson was the fellow who made it the disthat being of member of mystery and of the community wouldnt be soso significant as it was before. Not saying hostile to religion but of the elite status. Finally fourth lee on the question of slavery jefferson is scored as smob who could have done more on question of slavely true of anyone that he could do nor about anything that wasnt completely success in his own time. But i think that lenger has two sides in this it regard. Oneonone jefferson inherited slave and brought old people. He was a spendthrift that ultimately con sign them to being auction and worse slate for slaves to off and should be remembered. On the other hand jefferson also laid out a significant argument and should pass a law eliminating the slaves in north america that would be effective in earliest date allowed by u. S. Constitution and so congress did borrow slaves beginnings january 1,08 and role important factor in adoption of the u. S. Ordinance which bound slavery from the midwest. Theres a complication there well coming back to that. And thrrn other things that jefferson did in regard to slavery too that makes his word at wirs mix. It was mixed. So in public he would say that he was opposed to slavery and couldnt justify it and took steps against it in private and did continue to benefit from it and we dont want to ignore that but point is not my point but everybody in this connection is. People like jefferson passed from this world slavery already have been as some of their o pockets in virginia recognize put on a train to extinction. That i think a very important thing for jefferson to have done. You dont hear qeeb elizabeth forgetting qeeb of monarchy so i think that if you take these four status he was indeed, and now i want to take up some of these questions in a bit more detail. So after introducing topic by togs about main areas in which jefferson could be considered to be a radical kind of ignore question of major changes he was responsible for at a stroke and i think if you want to evaluate you have to think of them too so for example he was fellow who had the idea that america should have a concern city. Every day when you spend american money you are bent benefiting from jefferson conception this idea would sweep the world with and wasnt in 1980s finally the United Kingdom had decimal concern city so today we take for granted of course that would be true but it wasnt true in jefferson time and he had the idea also that architecture public architecture could serve a didactic purpose and he had the idea that virginias colonial public architecture and in general it was not republican. It can noded lead status for people who livered in gigantic house and it gave a mistake in messaging the way that the Colonial Government ought to be structured and so on. And hegd it would be meet and right for classic architecture to be constituted for buildings that they built for them in the period so he advised his fellow Virginia Political leaders that they have to follow greek and rome in example what he was in france he saw an and gent roman coffee of a temple that he quited a or mired ultimately this was a total, and played in initiating habit of americans of using classical models for their federal architecture as well. We dont ask, dont tell want to forget that having richmond be capital was also jeffersons idea for that so been to williamsburg. Motivation will is bit interesting one reason that one justification to jefferson offered at the team was well, its from Military Point of view having the capital view here on the coast. And is exposed if future military conflict should happen to be with the british. But on the other hand he a little was somebody who thought that the ongoing strength needed to be weakened in one way to do that would be to move the capitol away from williams bug so jeffersons responsible for doing that. Theres numerous such example i might offer of jeffersons ongoing widely affecting often overis looked successes at lets later. Now back to what i was saying before. My book takes up five areas of jeffersons statesmanship that runs through his career. First chat which is longest chapght about the issue that we now know as federalism or decentralized or in kat lek theology they call it country of sub said area and if he he wouldnt refuse it. But the thing is jefferson first came to continues nejts attention in 17774 and author of what he hoped to be instructions for virginia delegate to First Continental Congress and some review for british america and what he argued in what he hope for strurks for virginia cock man was that the colony of virginia and colony generally were politically in constitutionally to the United Kingdom only through the common crown that is his argument was or maybe you should say asertle was med pability or ever the parliament was a foreign body. It was foreign to our constitution and pun known to our laws. Notice theres assertion there that colonies haver that own constitution this is not the british have. The idea that the parliament is foreign to the north american coolmy and constitution and law and also not british theory. Instead they were living with sir williamback stone conviction that there was one common and there had to be one monoand british entire that that was westminster so jefferson says, we have this common crown and common crown has a few functions. It performs the the functions for all of the different parts of the empire that no part can perform for. So such as inducting diplomatic relation on his behalf. Conducting military operations on the empires behave but when it comes to local issues, then the local legislatures whether theyre in the bahamas or theyre in connecticut or theyre in westminster, they are responsible for the local inhabits. Not for the people in virginia. So jefferson begins career as a noted politician in north america with this argument. Essentially for as i said before decentralized government or federalism. The idea that theres a Common Center that has a few we have seen later a few enumerated powers essentially all other authority remain at the now we say the state level. This is an idea to which to come back over and over, in fact, if you look at very is last letter he ever wrote it his close political ally james had concluding paragraph where he famously says take care of my when dead and it is a very sad kind of a expecting kind of memorialization of the fact that hes always welcome and hes thought that his friendship was one of the best parts of his life but the rest of the letter before that was about this idea that we in in virginia must resist the Centralist Party program that is being pushed off by president John Quincy Adams bag to the old argument from the 17774 most Government Authority is in hands of virginia gains and cannot tolerate of the federal Government Legislature for us in areas of over which we have not conceded that should have any authority. The idea of this that jefferson had staked out in 1774 under the british, rule in north america remain king the than under articles federation under the u. S. Constitution qhom jeffersons point of view all of the internal outside virginia theyre external. All of the expersonal authorities have a tie virginia for virginia convenience. So if he famously says also in the declare of independence if people decide that Foreign Government he actually called u. S. Government our Foreign Government at one point. If the Foreign Government isnt serving hurps we would hope it would. Were entitled to place it he said that about british king and gfts and had this idea throughout. Wheel wore familiar with his playing career and, of course, will know that there were times when jefferson nearly led his Political Party into the violent resistance to federal policy the moats famous instant came at end of 1790s when he organized resistance to ultimately i think violent resistance to the act of 1798 jefferson vision of the relationship between the Central Authority and virginia again i dont think ever changed at all and if you change the letter to madison which covered res loses he had written that he wanted Virginia Assembly to adopt if you compare to what they said about british king and the British Parliament in 1774 youre not going to find very much difference at all. So this this idea of virginia he says this over and over, my country and these other places as well convenient friends if they want to be friendly. That that is within of the main theme s of his political career. Second important theme of his political career i mentioned before was this establishment of the state church in virginia. But buns madison in particular, had been successful in eliminating the religious establishment in virginia they didnt stop there. E 24e6 the the idea that that principle of freedom of registration as we now call this ought to be a universal principle. So paymentsly, of course, when jefferson was pet, he wrote the clearest e innocencuation of this idea. He word from the dan before rei Baptist Association and danbury is town where my university is located in danbury, indicate happy that heed been elected president and he thought of being him as press because indicate still had a establishment and had to pay tax to connecticut and you can be punished and civically disabled in various ways if you were to remember the con depression gages and jefferson wrote back and said i comp plait comp resident in which theyve a wall of chumming and celebration. He thought this was a principle that all of the states ought to adopt. And he thought well there was really no good argument against it but notice he also thought this makes it consistent with the point i was just making a couple of plins ago. He said next that remain for each dog to do for himself. So the fact that jefferson believed in this principal of freedom of religion and fact that he believed that the federal government had been denied and any right to establish registration requires or to erupt state church did not mean that he thought and a didnt think that the prophet could tell the states that they have to allow freedom of religion. So this federal principle remain the underlying theme of his statesmanship while he advocated general trend he hope both of the states would adopt and, of course, his had friend madison took the same view and madison appear to have thought of the questions it a lot in rirmt. I often when considering what they said or who two of them wrote i unwilled to question well did madison help him like this. Did jefferson because theyre thinking as so often similar and in the area of Church State Relations it seems to me that madison is kind of moving in jeffersons direction. The van on the establishment of religion means that the federal government shouldnt be telling people or asking people to pray in a particular way, at a particular time, or at all. This shouldnt happen at all. He also came to the conclusion madison did that he shouldnt be chaplains in the congress. He didnt think there should be chaplains in the military and again, you have the same reasoning. If im a congressman and i subscribe to religion acts or no religion, today the chaplain represents religion why, i and my constituents are being made to pay for this religion to which we dont subscribe. This goes back to violating that fundamental principle that people should be made to participate in any religion which they dont describe. Yes, its madison said this but these musings, i think, likely where the fruit of a long conversation between the two of them. Madison moved in that direction over time. Madison was president he wrote to veto messages on the question of the establishment clauses and he took liberal positions, considered nowadays, on the clause. So, this matter of the relationship between government and religion is another in which jeffersons influence on us is monumental. We have nowadays general courts have left aside the federal principal in relation to the established closet but certainly, the underlying ideas of the virginia statute of religious freedom are the guiding ideas in our civic culture today when it comes to these kind of questions. The third chapter in my book is about the question of colonization. Colonization was jeffersons answer to the slave issue. It is a very foreign idea to us in 2017, but jefferson and his one book, notes in the state of virginia that three different points discussed the existence of slavery in virginia now remember, if you dont know, ill tell you. He states that the virginia was originally conceived as a set of answers to some queries about virginia that he had received from a french diplomat. This french diplomat sent queries to leading men in all the states and one of them receive them in virginia was jefferson, he rearranged them and instead of making them two or three sentence answer says to these queries, he made them into a several hundred page book. These the book is bethany. Most historians will say its the most important book of the 18th century. Its full on his interesting issues and emblematic of the way the people were thinking of geography and human geography and other questions like that at the time. But, in the essays, we call them queries because they are in response to queries, he touched on a couple of things. One of the queries was about the earlier mannerisms of virginians. Jefferson wrote back and he mustve been thinking, what kind what kind of question is that. He wrote back and said well, of course, i was born in virginia and i dont know whats particular about our manners. One thing you might find killer is the slaveowning. He then went into a long discussion of the question how does being a slave owner affect the master. His answer was, generally, its for republican citizenship and how does it unfit him for republican citizenship from his earliest days he has free to give brent to his most boisterous passions. Jefferson liked nautical metaphors. When i say boisterous i think of a ship having on heavyweights. What does he mean by that . He goes on to say if youre born into a slaveowning family, from your youth your able to command adults, not only command them but do it in the most emotional kind of a way. He says this unfits you for for public citizenship. How . Because republican citizen ship was faith. We have a equal right and capacity to contribute to our common deliberation is soda why. If im a threeyearold slave master telling a 50 yearold man what to do, i dont learn this lesson. Jefferson thanks theres a kind of distortion of virginia slaveowners personalities thats an effect of being slaveowners. Before i leave that, not everybody agreed with this. One of jeffersons closest political allies, john taylor caroline, a political thinker and writer besides being a syndicate officeholder in the 1790s to the 1890s, later answers this in this isnt true. What my slaves do doesnt anger me any than my horse angers me. One thing you can see an jefferson suspension is that he, unlike taylor, is affected by the common humanity that he shares with the place. Taylor, apparently, sees them as implements. If you go to the other part of his book where he discusses slavery at length, he talks about the legal status of slaves in virginia. He talks about the relationship between the enslaved black people and white people. He talks gloriously about the natural capacity of white compared to black people. There hes led into speculation. Okay . Are you finding other disjunct between what jefferson thanks and what elite colleagues in the Republican Party think. Jefferson hazard to guess that the degraded situation in which he finds virginia slaves may be congenital. That is, he says i have heard that they are physically and mentally inferior. Now, his friend madison comes to the opposite conclusion. Madison is absolutely persuaded that this is environmental. Jefferson and bears linley in his passage says, well, ive never encountered a great slave poet and ive never encountered a great slave musician. Where would they get the opportunity but jeffersons answer is well if you look at the history of the greeks and romans, you find great slave historians but madison says, we dont dont let them learn to read. The point is jefferson takes this jaundiced view. He also says im open to receiving evidence to the contrary and through the balance of his life he does repeatedly receive information that might tend to mitigate against this inclination that he has to say that the differences hes observed between white and black is genetic. When he was president he hired the first black person ever to be an employee of the federal government. He was a surveyor, named benjamin was involved in laying out the district of columbia. Benjamin since jefferson triggered the metric quality cognitions, wrote back and said im happy to receive this and im really impressed with it. Im glad that you thought that i should know about this and i want you to know that nobody could be happier to learn or come the conclusion that black people are equal then i would be. On the other hand, he wrote to another fellow and said, do you think he did the speculations himself. Hes a bit skeptical but he always maintains this posture of being open to the possibility. Again, i have to think, hes talking hes talking about this with medicine. You know, who knows where were going to end up with this. Jefferson, however, says i think its impossible that we can have a biracial society, a happy biracial society. I think its a given that ultimately, these people are going to be free and then the question is what happens. He says, speaking for White Virginians, he says we are prejudiced against them and they hate us and he said we give them do reasons every day and so, if if theyre going to be free, slaves, if they hate the White Virginians and if the White Virginians are prejudiced and giving them new reasons to hate them every day, what solution is there . Jeffersons conclusion conclusion is not, as you might infer, well, i like owning slaves, it is well, we wanted when they are free will have to find a place for them not to be under our thumb. They should be free and to achieve that will have to send them somewhere else. This is the concept that come to be called colonization. In the 19th century, this is a bizarrely foreign concert now but in the 19th century this idea struck many people as perfectly reasonable. Nowadays, there are civic groups that are important like the National Organization of women, the National Rifle association, the National Abortion rights, people all over the country who are political lobbying, raise money to pursue their political activity and in the 19th century an anomalous group called the American Colonization Society. It had tens of thousands of members. Its first president was former president chief author of the u. S. Constitution, james madison. Among the other members were people like, john tyler, john taylor of caroline, other people like that. One way of understanding the American Colonization Society and this is the way that it was radical abolitionists would describe it as this was slaveowners anti slavery. Well do something about it if you have enough money. But madison seems to have the idea that this was a practical solution. That is that the fundraising ultimately completes to acquisition of a particular place to which free people from the United States could be sent. Ultimately during jeffersons lifetime, while his friend and former planet lieutenant james monroe was president , the United States sponsored the founder of the west african country of liberia. Capital is still named monroe. Its called monrovia. The first settlers of liberia were freed black people from the United States. By this time, i think, this is not a feasible solution to this problem and one might object nowadays that they should have had the idea of a biracial society. But jefferson didnt and yet, again, its not true that he thought, well, slavery fine and i benefit from it so i wont do anything about it and i can talk about it but i wont take action in that regard. Besides the significant legal reforms that i mentioned earlier , and as i said its former political tenet monroe signed the missouri compromise bill that meant ultimately to anti slavery would control the u. S. Senate, other virginians thought it would be the end of slavery. The missouri compromise meant the end of slavery. This Ongoing Campaign of having in slavery in the attempt to figure out what to do about it within the colonization context was the serious efforts for jefferson. I shouldve mentioned earlier, absent at various times, tried to find places to which free black people from virginia could be sent. There were times when he inquired of the British Government about canada. He inquired about sierra leone which is a w. African pl. Which freed black people were being sent by the british. He had the idea that this was a feasible outcome. He also argued against the missouri exclusion idea, the idea that missouri should not be allowed to have slavery. While, if virginians werent allowed to take their slaves to misery, it would make it more difficult ultimately, to abolish slavery in virginia. If, as was happening, the shared population in virginia that was enslaved or at least the steer in tidewater wood increasing would be politically feasible and definitely. The fourth chapter of the book is about nowadays, we call it a racial issue which was assimilation. What to do about the fact that there were europeans arriving in north america, numerous peoples already here. When jefferson was a young man his father peter was the most important manner around and so, jefferson had repeated contact with indian leaders who were traveling what by that point were lands west of here back to williamsburg, sometimes annually and in some cases to communicate with the governor and the governor in williamsburg. Everson learned at an early age to have some admiration for these people. He became involved in the significant dispute with the leading biologists in europe at the time. The font argued that mammals lived in the western hemisphere were degenerate. That is he said, the people are degenerate, compared to old world people. The animals that are naturally occurring in north america are smaller than european animals, less numerous. This is all environmental and of course the impatient as well, youre a frenchman taking of moving to north america you might want to think again. Jefferson and others, his political cohorts, thought thought it was an implication of the argument too. One thing that the american political leaders of the time were interested in enticing europeans to move to north america. So, for that reason, and for also, because also, because of sympathy for American Indians, absent their cause. In the state of virginia while he lays out the skeptical. [inaudible] the natural capacities of African People he also lays out a forceful argument for the quality of American Indians. He says the difference between American Indians and europeans is just cultural. That is, he thought, they had a rude culture rude culture but they could be assimilated into European Society in the United States if, only, they gave up hunting and gathering and became a sedentary farmers like americans in virginia. Jeffersons conception conception was everyone should be a farmer everywhere. Unless the guy who lives in monticello. At least in the abstract, jefferson has this idea. He says if the American Indians could be incorporated into our culture than they would be fit citizens of the United States. This is an ongoing dispute. One way that its manifest, even now, if you go see monticello and you walk in the front door the first thing youll encounter is a large set of antlers. I caution you, dont think this means that jefferson had bad taste as a decorator. It might mean that what it really its his propaganda. This is saying look, elk are bigger than anything you have in europe. Right . This shows that the north American Animals arent degenerate, jefferson thought. He sent lewis and clark to oregon and said send me a woolly mammoth. I want a woolly mammoth. Why would you think there would be a woolly mammoth . This is amazing. This could pass as a foreign country. Jefferson was living in a time where europeans were not going to the west and seeing what was there and he thought mastodons were still roaming the earth. If one of them could be obtained and sent to bouffant this would offer proof that north American Animals were better than europeans. He had to be content ultimately within elk, im sorry, a moose from maine. This must have impressed bouffant. In any event, jefferson lodged American Indians and many states. In. Her offices and as president he argues for this. Once he becomes president , jefferson is involved in another cause and that is the race to see whether the United States can be a trend continental country. It needs to be discovering being the first european country to claim land on the west coast of america. When the twin urges, competing urges, of assimilating American Indians and having america be a transcontinental country come into conflict, he chooses the geostrategic and this of course will remain ultimately that his intellectual descendents to decide on indian removal. I dont think its fair to say that jefferson is responsible for indian removal but the impulse to defend American Indians or assimilate them was already weaker in jeffersons mind than the impulse to win this transcontinental race even while he was president. Finally, lastly, lastly, the concluding chapter of my book is about Public Education in jeffersons conception. This is related to his land reform. Remember, he thought, Republican Society only 85 families own about two thirds of virginia and could we have Republican Society in which as we think was the case when the revolution began about half of adult white men of sound mind were illiterate in virginia. Jefferson thanks, no, we cant. So, he was a member of the council of advisors and wrote a bill for the more general diffusion of knowledge and its goal was to ensure that all virginians had a basis in his language and included females. He said virginia children. All virginia children had a fundamental, the three rs, ultimately, he hoped that on a merit basis people who were most outstanding and mental acuity could be selected for grooming future political leaders at the reformed college of william and mary. He ultimately gave up on william and mary. Who wouldnt . [laughter] im sorry. No, im not really. He ends up deciding on the creation of what was a radically democratic university, university of virginia which perhaps we could consider in the question and answer session. I think you for listening to me. [applause] so, we have a few minutes for questions. I will repeat the question so they can be heard for television viewers. I might ask the opening question. And that is what common characteristics between independence leaders and revolutionary witches most of them are from elite backgrounds and you could regard them. My question to you is that jefferson in some ways is a classic rebel undermining the primogeniture and the why is he a radical . Im just curious that hes a randolph on his mothers side, not a lot. [inaudible] jefferson is a randolph on his mothers side but what does that mean exactly. He goes on and on about his father in wales and how great he was and when he gets to the end of that section he says, essentially, my my mother was a randolph. Make of that what you will. Its like Prince William were to write an account of himself and he were to say, dispensers have been important in politics since Queen Elizabeth and name all the important counselors to various monarchs and then my father is prince of wales, make of it what you will. The randolph family is significant in the revolution is hard to overstate. Thomas jefferson was a randolph, John Marshall was a randolph and at one point went Edmund Randolph was governor there was a Lieutenant Governor was another randolph. Jeffersons idea here was not only that the feudal land tenure ship should be landholding to be broken up so that wed say now the market would allow for broader dispersion of landholdings but he also proposed in his draft constitution for virginia in 1776 that if you are a virginia man and you did not own 50 acres of land, youd be given 50 acres of land. Virginia was a huge open space extending all the way to wisconsin. Why not make everybody a small farmer by giving everybody a small farm. We have all this land . This is all a way of avoiding the question because we dont know the answer. Its weird, really, when you think about it. If someone had been born in a situation and decided has there ever been a monarch, George Washingtons the closest thing, someone who decided i can have Supreme Executive Authority but i dont want to. So many like George Washington decides i will retire establishes this very important principle that president s retire, earlier he had to did the principle of the generals are subordinate to the civilians and heres Thomas Jefferson establishing, were not going to have princes like me anymore in virginia. Why would he do that . I dont know how he came to this. Its a perverse kind of impulse for somebody to decide, id rather have a society that is more in line with my way of thinking about political reality than with the political reality that has made me so comfortable and powerful and myself. Thats probably not the satisfactory response. Its almost impossible to answer that question because we need to know a lot more about the childhood and his childhood folks. I did think another way of strengthening your argument would be to compare jeffersons federalist opponents and they are after all celebrities but they were much more elitist. Much more hierarchical than jefferson. They had this. Empower when they could have tried to abolish the slave trade or taking action against slavery and didnt. So, that might be another way of approaching the question with radicalism in jefferson. To do that in the book . No. [laughter] thank you very much indeed. This has been very stimulating. Kevin will be signing books upstairs and i think rachel will lead him around to the back so that hes upstairs as you leave. Please join me in thanking him. [applause] [inaudible conversations] but the tv is on twitter and facebook. We want to hear from you. Treat us, twitter. Com book tv or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook. Com book tv. Kgb doesnt especially in the United States. How did you i love the story. It somewhat disturbing in the same time but how did you convince the kjv to leave you alone . So, i wanted to make sure that they wouldnt come after me or to harm to my German Family so i was racking my brain to what do i do. Eventually, i needed to tell them that im not following orders so i wrote a dear john letter and it went something like, dear comrades i have to tell you that i decided not to come back because i have contracted aids and the only place where i could get treatment was this country. 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