Trisend 10 yield. That is one reason why carl jacobys exciting new book, the strange career of William Ellis, the texas slave who became a mexican millionaire he. He is a professor at Columbia University in new york where he lives with his wife and son. His books from the role of the environment in shaping human power relations to the challenges he representing the profound violence experience by north americas indigenous peoples. In the strange career of William Ellis, jacoby brings to life the story of an elusive figure known variously as w. H. Ellis and guillermo ellis. The book strips away layers of mystery surrounding, ellis, revealing a long ignored history of slavery, emancipation, racial mixing and segregation in the u. S. Mexico border lands. The study casts. Sharp relief intimate entertaining link acrossnational boundaries that mexico and United States inseparable elements of a shared north American History. Please join me in welcoming karl jacoby. [applause] good morning, everyone. What michael and i thought we with do, i would give a very brief overview about the book. I wanted to read a short excerpt for you. Well have very short conversation up here. Then we wanted to get some questions from the audience. I hope that sounds okay with everyone . Good. For me, im a historian. As michael mentioned i teach at Columbia University. It is pleasure to get outside of the classroom and be at a book festival like this one because i think about history as literature. I think it really can be told in a very creative sort of way and i think about the book that i wrote here. Although it is technically is a history, i like to think about it as a nonfiction novel. I think what historians were forced to tell a true story. We need to think about both those terms. We need to think about what makes it true. We think about the story aspects of history, narrative aspects that have appeal and draw history in to the lessons were trying to impart from the past. In terms of my book, the subtitle gives away the plot to the book, it is called the texas slave who became a mexican millionaire. It is about William Henry ellis born in a small town not too far from here, victoria, texas, some of you may know. He eventually moved to san antonio. He has an office here on military plaza in san antonio. Along the way, then he moves to new york city. Along the way he endsp changing himself from William Henry ellis to this character known as guillermo enrique, who everyone thinks as incredibly wealthy mexican from mexico city in new york city he lives on central park west, which if you know new york city is one of the main prestigious avenues overlooking central park as the name would imply. He has an office on wall street next to jpmorgan, the preeminent investment banker from the particular time period. He is really in the seat of power during that time period. I like to think about him as real life great gatsby. He is from small town anywhere usa and comes to new york and reinvents himself. He is a selfmade man in two senses. He is selfmade man, went from rags, born into slavery and able to become quite wealthy and live in most prestigious addresses in new york city. He is also selfmade he recreates the image of himself during this time from someone seen as africanamerican but to most as a mexican. This is this in many respect as story about passing, racial masquerade. This was a Standard Development of most novels on the harvard renaissance. Michael who is a expert on the harlem renaissance, from the larson about the issue of passing or James Weldon Johnsons novel, autobiography of an excolored man. This is a common theme in a lost fix from the early 20th century fiction. It was curious to me, why do historians there, are is almost no histories about racial passing. I thought why is there no history about this when fiction writers talk about it so much. I tried to research it, now i know why. The paradox about doing a history like this is that youre trying to write the life story of someone who is trying to hide his life story. So it is not like george washington, you collect all the papers, there is a big library and you can find everything. This was a Treasure Hunt or detective story in terms of finding out all of the background about him. And this is why i think that its much more common that people have dealt with the issue of passing in novels because as a novelist you can invent all the details and fill all the missing pieces using your imagination. Of course as an historian im not allowed to do that and it took me as a result 10 years to write this book because i had to do so much searching around to find tiny scraps of evidence to put them into the story im sharing with you. One of the key parts in terms of making the book reality for me was tracking down some of William Ellis family members. I was able to do this, both family members who were from victoria and moved to san antonio, as part of the great migration who moved west to los angeles. Other parts of his family which had gone down and moved to mexico. One of the ending part of the book. The final coda of the book these two branches of the family lost in touch with one another. Very common story that the border ends up dividing families and families can get out of touch. When i finally contacted them i was able to put the two halves of the family back together. The coda of the book, transborder, transnational where two parts of the family been out of touch for 75 years come back and get reacquainted with one another. What i wanted to do just to read you an excerpt from the opening of the book and just sate the scene for you a little bit. This scene would take place in 1909 and it takes place on a luxury train a luxury pullman train that is going from mexico city to new york city. These two great met metropolisef north america. The opening it talks about what happens when you cross the border from mexico into texas. This was a very key moment on the train because because in the whole question emerged what race are the passengers . Because mexico had no jim crow, it had no segregation. Texas of course in 1909 had segregation virtually all aspects of life to keep the so call races separate from one another. So one of questions come up they would have to reshuffle the passengers when they crossed the border. So the, it means that the border then as now has this he question where issues about identity are really becoming salient in everyday life because you have to figure out who is this person and where am i going to categorize them because of this process traveling a few feet from one side of the border to the other. A few other details to make the excerpt make sense, the train duty through the border at negras, on the other side would be the town of eagle pass, texas. The train itself is called aztec limited this is deluxe train that came from mexico city. With that should be enough to get you through this. Let me read a short excerpt for you. For the passengers aboard the aztec limited crossing the border was a once routine yet momentous. After the train journeyed athe bridge spanning the rio grande and pulled into the onestory depot on the eastern edge of eagle pass agents of the recentlycreated u. S. Department of commerce and labor, dressed in regulation dark blue uniforms with brass buttons climbed aboard to inspect the passengers and their luggage. Agents evinced no interest in narcotics like heroin or marijuana or cocaine, all legal in 1909, sought imported delicacies in era of high tariffs and no federal income tax, the federal government raised bulk of revenues on luxuries such as lace, jewels, watches and cigars. Next in a measure spoke volumes as the, sorry, next in a measure that spoke volumes as to the border as role in establishing personal identity as well as national territory, these aim agents compiled a report of inspection on all incoming passengers detailing each arrivals name, place of birth, occupation an final destination. The United States would not require passports until 1914. Rather than focusing on reading ones documents this procedure hinged on reading ones person. Determine the truth of an individuals stated identity, language, dress, physical traits and other clues. On ordinary passenger trains agents exercised vigilance against chinese or japanese laborers, who in an effort to evade United States restrictions on laborers, often disguised themselves as mexicans. As well as immigrants considered anarchists, poppers or possession of loathsome or dangerous diseases. On a luxury train like the aztec limited catering to well to do businessmen and upper class tourists agents more often than not took individuals declaration of identity at face value. On the morning of march 14th, 1909, a tall man with penetrating brown ice and carefully groomed moustache, attired in the latest fashion, top hat, tailored threepiece suit, gold watch chain, jeweled fob across a powerful barrel chest caught eye of authorities on the eagle pass. The passenger began his journey from mexico city in a firstclass pullman. Once he crossedded border of the United States a new question what arose what race was he . Despite his elegant appearance his skin had somewhat swatter think to in, unlike mexico the texas of 1909 had segregation laws everything from schools, restaurants, libraries, graveyards, hotels to railroad cards. When asked the newcomer insisted he was mexican entrepreneur on his way back to office on wall street after negotiating the purchase of several rubber plantations in his homeland. His name he offered was guillermo enrique. Which for those with foreign pronunciations, could be translated into english as William Henry ellis. As an ethnic mexican he was legally white and not subject to texass segregation statutes. A few of the train caught wind of vague halfwhispered rumors circulating along the border for all his obvious wealth and sophistication he might not be the well to do mexican he claimed to be. Could his complex be a product not of spanish background but covert africanamerican one . Dismissing assertions, he refused conductors attempt to locate him to the negro coach after the aztec limited to u. S. Soil. Only once the train crew summoned local sheriff charged with enforcing texass segregation statutes did he begrudgingly he would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars necessary to sue the railroad of humiliation to ride in the jim he crow car. Who was guilherme enrique . Many found themselves asking at turn of the century this dapper, an anything mat tick figure was in and out of the eras noteworthy events. Scandalous trials, unexpected disappearances, diplomatic controversies, most linked one way or another to latin america. It did confine himself to 1909 Border Crossing in the eagles pass. Commentators offered a kaleidoscope of the possibilities. New york world observed that he has a looks and dash of a spaniard and speaks several languages. Denver as evening post asserted that he was a wealthy mexican. In fact without a doubt the wealthiest resident of the city of mexico. Others said he was hawaiian blood or cuban gentleman of high degree. Editors of the Kansas City Star however cautioned that stories of hawaiian ancestry were not to be credited. One correspondent to the Baltimore Sun discounted rumors he was cuban, mexican, who knows what other latin american, traction. Concluded what the new york sun said, where he came from no one seems to know. [applause] thank you, karl. You mentioned a moment ago that youve been tracking down the story of William Ellis for the past 10 years or so. But i understand that he has been on your mind for much longer than that. Can you tell us how you first came across this figure . Sure. So i was, i dont even know, i dont even want to count the number of years now but way back when i was in graduate school i was looking at some records on, from u. S. Consuls in northern mexico. This is something one of you my professors advised me to do. All of a sudden i discovered this event that happened in 1895 which was hundreds of africanamerican sharecroppers from alabama and georgia were relocating to northern mexico along the border near durango. This is very interesting. Whenever we talk about immigration between the u. S. And mexico we talk about mexicans coming to the United States. We dont think why americans would go to mexico. If youre thinking about the 1890s, this is one year before plessy ferguson, separate but equal ruling before the supreme court, and presence of jim crow, there is lots of reasons why africanamericans would actually find mexico a potentially attractive place to be. So i got very interesting thinking about this hidden other migration we dont think this about. I got interested once looking through the records figuring out who was behind this. Who realized with the new train system between the u. S. And mexico that it didnt necessarily only need to go from north to south. It could actually go from south to north. It was a very mysterious figure that got me interested in trying to figure out who is this person who had a very interesting vision of the border and what the relationship between the u. S. And mexico could be. Today were located downtown at the main branch of the San Antonio Public Library not far from where ellis lived and worked. Since you spent so much time emersing yourself in 19th and early 20th century san antonio life as you researched the book, take us back there for a moment. What was this place like then . Thats a great question. Really, one thing that is really fascinating that san antonio was, is hub of trade across the border into mexico connected particularly to monterey. I dont think it is at all accidental that William Ellis ends up moving here. There are a couple things that are happening. So he gross up in victoria. You cant pass as it were in your hometown. Everyone knows you, know your family. So you need to go Someplace New where youre unknown and the closest big city to victoria is san antonio. There is a train built in the 1880s that allows you to relocate to san antonio. Once youre here, there is large, 1 3 mexicans at that time period. There is a Large Community he can blend into and no one knows who he is. But it is not accidental. Not only the closest big town, it is also the town most connected with mexico. So throughout his life William Ellis is always at places very much on the frontier between on relationships between the u. S. And mexico. He is born in victoria, where the southern plantation belt ends and the northern mexican sort of cattle ranching frontier begins. Those two places really overlap in very small portion of texas, the heart of it being victoria. Here in san antonio hes at the heart of where, there is transport earth trade. So he was in military plaza and all of those buildings around military plaza would have been traders who were involved in mexico and a lot of those buildings would have been their storehouses where theyre storing thing like cotton, cattle hides and Everything Else for trade back and forth mexico. People also know military plaza some ways where sort of seat of san antonios great food comes from because every evening they would actually come out and have mexican food and sell that there in military plaza. Later in his life when William Ellis moves to new york that seems like an odd thing to do but wall street is completely fascinated with mexico during this time period. That almost everything that is happening the United States economy is one way or another connected to mexico. This is the early 1900s is a period of electrification, so you need copper. Where does copper come from . Copper comes from mexico. Creation of automobile and where does oil for rubber come from . It comes from mexico. The rise of junk food as it were, chocolate and chikle, it comes from mexico. By being in new york city he is once again at the relationship between mexico and the United States is at its most articulated format. Slave narratives are quite obviously foundational to the africanamerican literary tradition and the theme of racial passing as you mentioned a moment ago plays a central role in the emergence what we call africanamerican literature. Including fiction and nonfiction about characters who pass not as white but as latino you mentioned in the book Langston Hughes and you mentioned James Weldon Johnson and, you also mentioned noah larson. We might think of the work as jesse redman faw set to tried to present as latino in fiction. Is there any information that ellis was familiar with tales of literature or tales of passing . Thats a great question. That is a fascinating question. I have to believe he was although at the same time the tricky evident part of the book he is living in new york city during the harlem renaissance, right . I feel that on some level hes participating in that though he has to be very careful how much he gets involved in it because he is trying to hide certain aspects of his background. But it is, that is one of those sort of fascinating unprovable things. One of the themes i talk about in the book as a notion of him as a trickster which comes from africanamerican folklore. I have to believe these trickster stories which were really central to folklore from slavery and its aftermath in some ways i think informed his perspective on the world. That is sort of a leap of faith im making trying to contextualize his cultural background. As i read your book, he struck me as character that could be easily in the work of James Weldon Johnson because he deploys some of the strategies johnson himself in his autobiography confesses to deploying when he would occasionally pass as cuban. What were ellis strategies for passing . You touched on some of them but i wonder if you could spell this out a little bit more. That is fascinating. We talk about passing as seen know type. That he is relatively lightskinned that allows him to say he is mexican. If you look at the cover on the photo he cultivates one of those big mexicanstyle moustaches. There is more than your physical appearance involved. Part of it is dress and the way he dresses invoke as very upper class form of mexican that is very much in touch with european models that are very influential in mexico during this time period. Language is a big part of it as well. There is a great line from lange lange Langston Hughes i quote in the book, James Weldon Johnson does the same thing, when you have to buy the ticket on the railroad, and the railroads are one of the places segregated during this time period, you buy your ticket in spanish. The tickettaker will often make the assumption, there is really no way to prove what your race is. No one at this time has drivers license or passport or anything. Tickettaker we i will make assumption this person must be mexican and sell you ticket for first class car. Language can become a really useful tool and James Weldon Johnson does the same thing where he is speaking spanish on the train and they dont throw him out of the firstclass car because they think he he is cuban. This is one of the things, i think, William Ellis first learned spanish because he was picking cotton alongside mexican field hands in victoria and that interesting early interaction then allows him to do all of these other things. Really in an interesting way play on stereotypes of white texans who have a certain sense of what a mexican is supposed to be and what an africanamerican is supposed to be and he is able to manipulate those stereotypes to his advantage. I will ask one more question and then well invite questions from the audience. If you do have a question we ask you use the microphone so that the tv audience can hear what youre asking as well. So, you mentioned a moment ago that you analyzed the photograph of ellis in much the same way that a ticketseller would read his character. Uhhuh. What were some of the other tools of evidence that you deploy in the book to get at this very tricky and elusive story . Yeah. Thats a great question too. The, in many respect this is book i think would have been impossible without digitization of the archives we encountered. Im not one of those people who uniformly loves the embrace of the web and we must digitize everything. The tricky thing i was saying about William Ellis because he is im trying to write this story about someone who is trying to hide his life story, that there isnt one obvious place where there is a lot of sources about him. So that but there are things we have now so a lot of census data has been digitized, a lot of newspapers have been digitized. So you can put in his name and various pseudonyms and you can get all sorts of stories popping up across the country in all sorts of unexpected places and eventually using digitized census records i was able to track down census members. That is important to me. It allowed me to match up, see what his public persona was. This is what the newspapers are giving you, sort of public image is. Once you could hear what the families had, you could get a sense what his actual family background was like. They had lots of great photos, including photo on the cover in this top hat. And personal letters and a lot of great stories. It was an interesting combination bringing together the family stories, the family history. This much more Public Record of what he was imagined to be. Seeing the gap that existed and how he navigated between this gap what his background was and his sort of very elevated image in public life during this time period. Do we have any questions from the audience . Please join us at the microphone. You did mention you started the book 10 years ago, and you have been thinking about it since graduate school. Since it has been published have you learned more about the subject . Have people come forward given you more information you wish you had for the book . So far not too much, although generally thats one of the things that is fascinating that does shake loose whenever you write a book. In this case one of the things i did i created a website about the project first. So a lot of people who i did want to contact particularly the family in mexico which is incredibly heart to track down, they were, i was able to track them down before the book came out, which was really transformative for the book an enabled me to do that family reunion. I dont know if there is exact answer to your question. One of the things im looking forward to is next month in mexico, right outside of mexico city William Ellis great great granddaughter is getting married and im invited to the wedding as well as some u. S. Members of the family t will be a wedding creating a new generation. In that respect the book had this life, this afterlife i should say that has been really fascinating and im not exactly sure where it is all going to go but i think something more will happen. The other part about the book that is really fascinating he is involved in ethiopia, and i do think that the way that he thought about ethiopia, first africanamerican to go to ethiopia. The way he thought about ethiopia im curious to see what yepance ethiopiaance think. That will take a little while to it emerge as well. Karl, youre anticipating my question. It has been a while at home, kent lummis file. He is a cousin of my. He is the subject on most infamous murder on my family tree. William ellis was his traveling companion to ethiopia. Consent was a newspaper editor in west virginia, but his brother was Francis Loomis assistant secretary of state under Teddy Roosevelt. They traveled together and kent loomis, the queen mary . I cant remember the name of the ship . I think hindenburg or something. It has a german name. I cant remember. He ends up washed ashore on Southern Coast of england. They were carrying a treaty to ethiopia to be signed t has been a while since ive seen the file but after the death i assume ellis went on to have the treaty signed. Was he in contact with Francis Loomis after that about the death . In terms of the difficulty of piecing together his life, what was the timeline for two years afterward . Did the death stick to him in some sort of specter fashion in terms of his reputation . And also i had also looked into the colony, i dont know the city in mexico where they were taking africanamericans but it seems some of those africanamericans were unhappy there and wanted to come back to the United States. Would you address that as well . Sure. Okay. Let me just give a little background on that he question. So one of the interesting chapters in the book is that William Ellis is involved in bringing the first u. S. Treaty to ethiopia in the early 1900s and he is traveling on a steamship across the atlantic with the brother of the assistant secretary of state. Somehow William Ellis has inserted himself into the state department. In this case he is passing sort of as a diplomat. He has no diplomatic background but somehow attached himself to this Diplomatic Mission and at some point the gentleman he is with, his name is kent loomis or pushed or falls off the steamship and his dead body washes up on the shore of great britain. There is a lot of controversy. Did William Ellis push him over, particularly when people start to dig into his background he may not be this mexican figure we thought he was . Maybe there is Something Else and so, thats the big, whether he is a murderer or not we talked about, that is one of the big unresolved mysteries in the book. The, so i believe afterwards William Ellis is brought into the state department and debriefed and he is debriefed also by Teddy Roosevelt who is president at the time. So he is of course this brings him note right, this is subtle paradoxes trying to pass like this, only by obscuring part of his background could he rise to this sort of station being involved in american diplomacy, at the same time becoming more visible he risks being unmasked and his background being revealed. That is one of the real sort of paradoxes that he has to navigate during this particular time period. Certainly all the accounts he has he is extremely nervous and anxious after this murderaccident takes place there is the risk of him being unmasked in a way. To follow up the threat about, some ways what i open the questions about here, about an 1895 when he is behind bringing all these africanamericans to the city, there, some of them are actually people in that area today who still trace themselves back to that original migration. There are also some of them who basically realize even though mexico doesnt have segregation, basically theyre going from being sharecroppers in the u. S. To working on hacienda in mexico. Classwise it is really not much of a benefit one way or the other, so some of them do end up going back to the United States as well. I dont think he is able, William Ellis is not able to completely resolve all of the challenges that African Americans are facing during this time although i think it is really, there is tremendous excitement and coverage in the United States press particularly in the south, around this migration of the 1890s because a lot of earners are not treating africanamericans well and there is option thousands of africanamericans if not the majority of africanamericans might move to mexico. This is one of those alternative histories to really contemplate. It was a real enjoyable book about all these different points mexico, the United States, texas , on that point is there any other is this first chemicals to san antonio in texas, and there is other interest in texas characters out there . That is a great question. The funny part, im not from texas and i had actually, when i thought about Texas History i thought about of course the alamo. I always thought, im not sure i really want to be a texas historian, but i shouldnt say that here, im sorry. [laughter]. But, there is a but here that is important to get across. So initially i was just trying to trace this character and i dont know where he was from. Tracing him backwards, eventually i found myself in victoria, san antonio and victoria texas. And in retrospect of course this makes sense. Where else would an africanamerican be from in the 19th century who would be really familiar with mexican culture and with spanish . They could only be from texas. On the academic level what im trying to get across in the book, just ways when were think about the history of slavery we need to bring it into the history of the border much more than weve done. One of the tensions in texas as a whole is slavery is booming here in the 18 50s. So the family that owned his ancestors was from upper south, from kentucky and moved down to victoria in the 1850s. That is very common. Almost all the slaveowning families are from the upper south. You cant grow con ton in kentucky. Theyre all coming down to participate in cotton of the as cotton booming in texas, as it grows closer you get to the border. The closer to the border, greater chance that slaves can escape. It is incredibly vibrant system and also a system that feels under assault because the proximity to the border and thousands of slaves escape across the border into mexico. The larger object lesson i became completely convinced Texas History is fascinating and really, i think almost all of the most important and interesting issues in American History today are to be found, to be found in texas. So i havent actually figured out what im going to do next. Maybe you can give me some ideas about some of these characters. Ive become a convert to Texas History and its important. I had a second or minor question the part where vassar and hemings, anita hemmings, i cant quite remember . Yeah. Is that hemmings related to Jefferson Hemmings group, even though she spelled it with two. Ms . Is that lineage . The question, at one point i do in the book i try to bring in all the other stories about passing going on at the same time. One has to do with elliss sister goes to northwestern for a year. She is thrown out because they discover she is africanamerican. I just at that pose this with a story from someone, i think her name is Anita Hemings. She goes to vassar. She passes as spanish. Very similar to what William Ellis is doing. She is able to get her vassar degree. Most people think she is somehow related to the hemings family. In fact Sally Hemings original children pass an disappear to into what society so theyre very hard to trace. All the accounts i investigated that there is some link to that hemings family and the family Anita Hemings came from. How did he make his money and millionaire . Why did he not unmask his characterrer . Did he want to be a black africanamerican or mexican . Those are great questions. So, he is the first he is in theory the first africanamerican on wall street but it would have been impossible to be openly black on wall street in the late 19th early 20th century. There is obvious reasons why you would want to keep your background hidden. The other thing to keep in mind he is married to a white woman which was legal in new york at the time. If you come to your family in texas it is illegal for blacks and whites to be married. There are personal and professional reasons he wants to keep his background hidden. What he serves as a broker between mexicans and u. S. Americans want to invest in mexico for all reasons i explain about copper and oil. Most americans know nothing about mexico. Illustrated by the fact that they believe William Ellis is mexican, right . Then theyre able to, he is able to serve as a link and idea he is mexican is very useful. He actually makes a lot so a lot of his money is by setting up these deals between americans and mexicans. He is also involved in the biggest one which is a water company. This is the time infrastructure is being created both mexico and the u. S. Around water and he ends up all the things to basically privatize and make money out of it is actually a water system. The ending, i hope i dont give too much away of the plot but the end point is kind of interesting, he is doing very well, i will leave it at this to give away all the plot but he i will buy the book. All right. [laughter] he is very connected to diaz who is the mexican president s last dictator. And the mexican revolution comes along and throw out diaz. The question you how do i make, what is my connection to be with mexico when mexico is in revolutionary turmoil . All the relationships that i formed with people in diazs administration which were so valuable, all of you sudden those are converted into liabilities because you can be seen as, sort of an exploiter if youre connected to diaz. You knew teddy roost as a result organized rough riders 1895 or so. Right. Here at the hotel. Go in the bar to have a drink and there is Teddy Roosevelt stuff all down the aisles. He might have made contact there, i dont know. I do know, William Ellis did go to the hotel to drink. That one of places to go, yes. They have good mango ice cream. Bill clinton had it sent back to the white house when he camed here to campaign for president. We have one more time for one more question. My question is not as fascinating as hers was. We know all the challenges as learning a new language. I could see how he physically pasts but nuances are the accent are difficult to perfect. Did he have any close calls with native mexicans because i cant imagine him passing on that level . That is a great question but the thing is he didnt need to fool the mexicans as much. Mainly he is trying to fool white texans. He is trying to fool anglos. He needs to speak enough spanish so they believe he is a mexican. Often when he is in mexico he isnt pretending to mexican because it is useful to be an american in mexico. Ironically depending which side of the border he is he is a mexican in the United States but he is an american often in mexico. And so i do have letters that he has written in spanish which are written, really beautiful fluent spanish. This is obviously one of the frustrations as historian. I have a no tape recording so i dont any tape recording technology. We dont know his accent. There are regional variations in mexico in terms of what that regional variation would have been. A mexico city accent versus a tejano accent from texas is a different thing. How he negotiated that as well i dont know, but a great thing to think about. There were no recorded close calls how he didnt quite fit the pattern once in new york . Once in new york, no. He does eventually, not to give away one other point, vanely in san antonio, i will say this, in san antonio he gets caught. So eventually in tan tone yo one of the other reasons he moves, leaves san antonio and moves to new york because he is caught in san antonio. The san antonio city director had a c for everyone colored who was africanamerican. For every year you would look, William Ellis had no c. In 1890s you see a c appear because of the incident i talk about in the book. After that he disappears from san antonio. You dont see him again until a year later where he pops up in new york city. He had more than a close call. He was caught eventually. That made him much more careful when he was in new york city. That is all the time we have. You can continue a conversation with karl, he will be signing books outside of the library. Thank you for joining me to thank him for this wonderful conversation. [applause] [inaudible conversations]. Booktv on twitter and facebook and we want to hear from you. Tweet us, twitter. Com booktv or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook. Com booktv. Folks, wait one second. Folks, before we begin i ask you to take the time now to please turn off your cell phones. Keep in mind that cspan is videotaping this evening, at the end when we do our q a there is a microphone up in front. 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