Transcripts For CSPAN2 Justice Homeland Security Depts. Officials Testify On War Crimes 20221001

Lets see, i think it has gone from one extreme to the other. We are going to get started if you can hear me. Okay . All right, on september 14th, ukrainian president Vladimir Zelenskyy walked into a can only be described as on earth it was just days after Ukrainian Forces recaptured the city of is e president elect he wanted to assess the damage personally the once picturesque riverside city was now unrecognizable mass graves were filled with hundreds of unidentified bodies, including children. Bodies with crushed skulls. Victims hands tied behind their backs. Faces mutilated beyond recognition. Many showing signs of torture. It was the same sickening scene we saw in bucha, and other towns that have been, socalled, liberated from Russian Forces. We must not look away. We must face this squarely. We must bear witness to these heinous acts. This is why we have images of these crimes around the hearing room today. I met with ukrainian prosecutor, general andrej costa last week. He told me the ukrainians have documented nearly 35,000 war crimes like the ones you see in these images. Since russias illegal, unprovoked, invasion of ukraine. As russia escalates its war, the free nations of the world cannot sit back. We must uphold our nations legacy from nuremberg, when the United States led the prosecution of not see war criminals, by bringing todays purse of todays war crimes bringing them to justice. I would like to turn to video on that legacy. I am heartbroken to see it happening again. Kids being shot. Homes being blown up. It pains me to see that we have learned so little from the holocaust. I have one word to describe it, it is. Going to recover that bodies. [speaking nonenglish] he tells me how and assess officer nearly killed him in 1941. How he survived a russian onslaught decades later. Human beings buried in unmarked graves, 99 killed by violence. Shalom of the bodies show signs of torture. We met a women who had today witnessed the exhumation of her own son who have been tortured and murdered by russian soldiers. And a room in here where russian occupiers used for torture. Now that mass burial site that we see there. There are more civilians than soldiers. Whenever the russian army steps in, they turn everything into butcher. We hope that seeing the pictures and reading the reports regarding the devastation, the human cost to civilians, men, women, and children. No one here is above the law, but no one is beneath it. Ukraine is, today, a slaughterhouse. The actions we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate it being ignored. When the nuremberg trials first convened to 1945, Supreme Court Justice Robert jackson was the chief prosecutor. He recognized that the best corrective to the brutish lawlessness of the not sees what the rule of law. He dean the trials, quote, one of the most significant tributes the power has ever paid to reason. Those words echo through history last week when president zelenskyy called on the World Leaders to ensure that the perpetrators of atrocities in ukraine can find no safe haven anywhere in the world. We must continue to support ukraines efforts to prosecute war criminals. We must support the International Criminal courts investigation of atrocities in ukraine. It is also up to this body to ensure that our laws, here at home, do not enable this terrible more than a decade ago, i had the honor of chairing the senates first ever subcommittee and human rights in law. Last years chair of the judiciary committee, i was pleased to reconstitute the subcommittee now chaired by senator feinstein. Over the years we had a number of bipartisan accomplishments, including the genocide accountability act, which granted the Justice Department power to prosecute war criminals on american soil who had participated in genocide. The child soldier accountability act, which made illegal under u. S. Law to recruit or use the u. S. Holders. Our work is far from finished. A number of shameful rue polls in americas laws continue to enable war criminals and perpetrators of crimes against humanity to find safe haven in the United States. It sounds unbelievable, doesnt it . But in 2006 mark baskets, a man who participated in the genocide in bosnia was discovered living in massachusetts. Rather than charging him with times against humanity, our government charged baskets with visa fraud. Why . Because our nations still, to this day, does not have a law on the books prohibiting crimes against humanity. Do you want to risk reading a headline ten years from now about a russian who murdered civilians in ukraine enjoying impunity in america . I certainly do not. That is why i have introduced the justice for victims of war crime act with senator grassley as a cosponsor. This bill has been cosponsored as well by senators leahy, graham, cohens and blunt. It will close a loophole in the act so that foreign war criminals, present and our country can be prosecuted even if they discovered years after the crime. I look forward to working with my colleagues to flock the statute as well. Before turning to senator grassley, i might save the general of ukraine last week. Bipartisan groups of senator portman who cochairs the senator graham, jeanne shaheen, and senator asinof are joining in an effort to see the best approach to dealing with these war crimes and crimes against humanity in ukraine. It is an afterthought effort. It involves several meetings and it will continue. I now turn to the Ranking Member grassley for his opening remarks. Thank you chairman for this very important hearing. Thank you for the bipartisan approach on this issue. Since russias clown provoked and unjustified invasion of ukraine, beginning in february as we know, we have all been horrified by the reports of war crimes committed by Russian Forces. We have heard of mass graves, torture, sexual assault, bombing of a mall crowded with civilians, even an attack on a maternity hospital. Ukraine has begun to successfully prosecute war crimes. I hope many more perpetrators will be brought to justice. We know from our experience with not see war criminals that some offenders will escape immediate prosecution. They may assume false names, they may flee to other countries. Some may even, successfully, make it to our country. When these war criminals get into the United States, they cannot be allowed to live freely in our country. We have to have options to exclude, extradite, and punish war criminals. We must enhance our immigration laws and ensure it is as difficult as possible for individuals who engage in human rights violation to enter, and if they enter, remain in the United States. That is why i and senator graham introduced a bill that we entitled, human rights violation act of 2022. We did that earlier this year. But bill would formally authorize human rights violators and war crime center, which has done great work, to ensure that the United States does not become a refuge for those who engage in war crimes and Human Rights Violations. It also updates our immigration laws to include specific grounds of in accessibility and prosecutors and war criminals. To better take account of non state groups that engage in extra judicial killings. Since cases against human rights violators are often built on criminal statutes related only to fraud, perjury, and false statements. It would also increase the statute of limitation. In cases of fraud, perjury, and misrepresentation that involves Human Rights Violations. Finally, it would give the u. S. Csis full access to full criminal records and authorize the department of Homeland Security to assess fees to fund the visa security and National Security programs within that department. I am proud of this bill. I think it is a step in the right direction to ensure that this country is never a safe haven for war criminals and human rights violators. I look forward to working with my colleagues on the committee, and in the senate as a whole, to advance this legislation. We also have to have a prosecution options. We can work with ukraine to send war criminals back to trial where they have committed their crimes. There will be times, perhaps other conflicts, where no other authority will be available to prosecute. With senators turban, graham, law and coons i have introduced the justice for victims of war crimes act. This bipartisan bill narrowly expanse the jurisdiction of the existing war crime statute. It ensures that it has a prosecution option when foreign war criminals are present in our territory. This type of jurisdiction already exists for many statutes, including many terrorism statutes. Understand that the department would like to see this expansion. It fulfills our obligation under the geneva conventions. It ensures that there is no safe haven for any war criminal. I hope we will Work Together to ensure that this fix becomes law, i think all of the witnesses for hearing today, i look forward to our dialogue thanks, senator grassley. We will come to witnesses from the executive branch will testify about gaps in our laws in america for holding perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity, who come to our shores accountable. Our first witness is eli rosenbaum, from the department of justice. Mr. Rosenbaum is the director of human Rights Enforcement strategy and policy with the criminal division, human rights, and special prosecution section. As a point of personal privilege, i was pleased to offer the human Rights Enforcement act of 2009. Bipartisan legislation established the office that mr. Rosenbaum leads. Attorney general garland recently named mr. Rosenbaum to serve as counselor for war crimes accountability. In his capacity, he coordinates of the departments efforts to hold accountable those responsible for war crimes and atrocities in ukraine. Our second witnesses andre watson, the assistant director for Homeland Security investigations, the principle investigative component of the department of Homeland Security. Hsi investigates a wide array of transnational crimes, including Human Rights Violations. We are going to proceed by having the witnesses with a fiveminute opening statement, and then turn to the members who will each have five minutes to ask questions, as well. First, will the witnesses please stand and be sworn in. Raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you will get will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . Let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the formative. Mr. Rosenbaum, please proceed with your opening statement. Thank you, chairman and Ranking Member for inviting the department of justice to address gaps in federal law that significantly limit our ability to bring war criminals and perpetrators on human rights crimes to justice. Given the shocking crimes being perpetrated by russia during its unprovoked war against ukraine, this hearing could not possibly be held at a more appropriate, urgent, or frankly terrifying time. The Justice Department is committed to holding the perpetrators of such great crimes fully accountable. During a trip to ukraine in june, attorney general garland announced the creation of the departments War Crimes Accountability Team to centralize and strengthen our ukraine accountability efforts, and he asked me to lead it. Unfortunately, whoever, the title 18 war crimes statute does not cover the vast majority of war criminals who have come to the United States, and who are here, or who will eventually come here. Because it confers jurisdiction only when a victim or perpetrator is a u. S. Person, not on the basis that the perpetrator has immigrated to this country or is otherwise on u. S. Soil. The statute also contains other provisions that limit our ability to enforce it. Having prosecuted world war ii not see cases for nearly four decades, i can attest to the deep frustration we experienced because statutory limitations like those made it impossible to criminally prosecute any of the many not see criminals we found here. Instead, we could bring only civil actions against them. Russian and other war criminals who come here should not be able, similarly, to escape criminal justice or even find safe haven here. There is a second major gap. The federal torture statute doesnt confer jurisdiction based on the victims u. S. Nationality. Thus, even if a civilian u. S. Citizen or a u. S. Military Service Member becomes a victim of torture abroad under law, the u. S. Ordinarily has no jurisdiction to prosecute eludes the perpetrator is a u. S. Citizen or subsequently present here. And there is a third major gap. We dont have a statute criminalizing crimes against humanity. Such laws, the first of which the night states famously coprosecuted at the postworld war ii nuremberg trials, allow for the prosecution of certain criminal acts, such as enslavement or mass murder, wind committed as part of a systematic or widespread attack against a civilian population, even if those attacks occur outside the context of an Armed Conflict or genocide. War crimes and genocide statues alone are simply not sufficient to address the full and tragic array of largescale atrocity crimes that continue to be set the world. I would be pleased to provide examples of infamous and horrific crimes that are beyond federal prosecutors reach in the absence of a crimes against humanity statute. The departments of defense, Homeland Security, state, and justice, among other agencies, have agreed on Technical Solutions that would fill all three gaps that ive just mentioned. If those gaps are filled, the Justice Department can play and is eager to play a much fuller role in the crucial effort to make the post holocaust imperative, never again, a reality, not just an endlessly on realized aspiration. Thank you, chairman and Ranking Member, for affording me the opportunity to testify here today, and i would be pleased to respond to questions. Thank, you mr. Rosenbaum. Mr. Watson . Chairman durbin, Ranking Member grassley, and distinguished members of the judiciary committee. I am pleased to have the opportunity to address this committee today on a Critical Role u. S. Immigration and customs enforcement, i. C. E. , Homeland Security investigations, hsi, continues to play in ensuring the United States is not becoming safe haven for human rights violators, and to highlight areas in which legislation would assist us in more effectively pursuing criminal investigations and prosecutions. I am also honored to testify alongside our department of justice, doj partner. Mr. Eli rosenbaum, who has dedicated his lifes mission to seek justice for thousands of individuals who have been persecuted under the unscrupulous hands of perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The collaboration between the human rights violators and war crime center, and doj, as well as the departments of state and defense and our other Center Partners is a testament that the United States will not tolerate or condone perpetrators of atrocities against mankind to seek refuge and safe haven from their heinous crimes. One of the primary ways hsi accomplishes and leads this mission is through robust engagement at the center. The center, which ice stab list in 2008, has not been codified. Codification of the center would solidify the night states standing as a leader in identifying and prosecuting human rights violators, and memorialize the u. S. Governments commitment to ensuring that the United States does not become a safe haven for those who commit these heinous atrocities. The center focuses on its mission in two ways. One, by identifying, investigating, prosecuting, and removing war criminals found within the jurisdiction of United States. And to, by preventing entry to the United States of known or suspected human rights violators and war criminals. Our ability to accomplish this mission is directly related to our statutory authorities, despite a lengthy and detailed investigations establishing crimes that have been committed at. Times, the u. S. Government must forego criminal charges because evidence of the offenders actions did not surfaced within the statute of limitations. Other times, there are neither criminal nor administrative statutes which address the heinous actions committed, such as those acts which constitute crimes against humanity. Congress should greatly enhance our ability to pursue these cases by enacting legislation. The center also acts with foreign Law Enforcement and International Partners and tribunals to further global accountability. The Center Brings together special agents, criminal research specialists, attorneys, and historians with expertise and specific regional areas and conflicts. These team members, joined by our Center Partners, are organized into support teams that cover the geographic areas of the americas, europe, the middle east, and asia, and africa. By pursuing accountability for past atrocities. The center contributes to the work of preventing future atrocities. In addition to our global team, the center specializes those that are not limited to a specific geographic area. Is the female Genital Mutilation Cutting team it is a form of human rights abuse, a form of gender based violence, and when performed on children, a form of child abuse. We think congress for its leadership in passing the stop f gm act that tightened loopholes, and we urge you to enact a comparable motion so that those who perform fcm against a minor are ineligible for immigration benefits. Hsi currently has more than 160 investigations and is handling more than 1750 human rightsrelated leads involving suspects from approximately 95 countries, primarily in central and south america, the balkans, and africa. Since 2003, hsi has arrested more than 480 individuals with human rights related violations under various criminal and or immigration statutes. The center would benefit from additional statutory authorities. Chairman durbin and Ranking Member the grassley, i applaud her continued leadership on these issues. Thank, you again, the opportunity to address this committee, and i would be pleased to answer any questions you may have. Thanks, Mister Watson. Mr. Rosenbaum, lets start with you. The prosecutor from ukraine made it clear that they are prosecuting russian individuals in the domestic courts of that country for war crimes. In fact, they have successfully prosecuted some already. They are still looking for an International Venue for a court that goes beyond what they can prosecute in ukraine. Is that our position . Or should it be our position in the United States . Thank, you mister chairman. We are at the department of justice will come ongoing discussions about possibilities for International Tribunals being constituted to address these horrible crimes. Crimes of the kind that we saw in the video that you screened, and these heartbreaking images around the room. We know from experience at nuremberg, and more recent experiences in the hague, involving the International Tribunal for the former yugoslavia, the tribunal for rwanda. Other such efforts that these kinds of modalities of addressing such crimes can be very effective. But as always, its the details that matter. And again, we welcome exploration of those possibilities. It seems to me that in light of the unpopular conscription effort by putin at the present time, thats the United States and other nations that oppose putins aggression made it clear that there will be accountability, even for untrained soldiers being handed guns and sent into combat. Do you think this is an important moment to make that point clear . We have the department of justice certainly agree that every opportunity that exists to send a message of deterrence ought to be seized upon. We have been doing that, the attorney general has said publicly in ukraine and elsewhere that there will be no hiding place for war criminals. That is our goal. And that we will be relentless with our partners in ukraine and elsewhere in pursuing accountability. In particular, a message that a number of us have tried to send to the russian side, so to speak, is if you are daring to consider obeying a criminal order, you should worry that there might be an american in your line of sight. That would include a dual citizen, because then we may have jurisdiction and we have a long memory here in the night states. I was asked, does that mean Vladimir Putin could be found guilty . With the evidence, and facts, and law. Do you agree . Im not going to speculate on individual cases. At the department of justice, we have prosecutorial standards set out in the justice manual, regarding the availability of sufficient evidence to probably win a conviction in court, and we are supposed to consider all alternatives, including other venues for possible trial. I cant speculate on individual cases, but there is rampant criminality and lots of responsibility to go around. Let me ask you, Mister Watson. We have evidence that the department of Homeland Security is currently pursuing more than 1700 leads. From approximately 75 Different Countries. 1700 leads of people who are living right here in the night states. These are the known leads. The actual number may be even higher. When the department of Homeland Security discovers perpetrator in United States, what options does it have for ensuring that the perpetrator will not enjoy a safe haven status in our country . We have numerous options available that begin with our human waste ludicrous who earn certain tour. Our support team, as well as our human rights targeting team will commence research through open source, as well as databases and sometimes, classified holdings to develop a crime pattern, as it relates to a region. And from there, people who are associated with those crime patterns. After those folks are identified, we can work to prepare a package and investigative referral that can be sent to hsi field offices for coordination with the u. S. Attorneys office or the ice office to confirm if there are criminal offers available on the table. And if there are no criminal offers on the table, then to explore the possibility of administrative options that may be available to facilitate that persons apprehension. Mister watson, im out of time. I want to ask this one question. If you have 1700 leads, why have we not heard of more prosecutions . [inaudible] the investigations take time because more often than not, it requires an extensive work. Most of these events occur over a period of time. Sometimes those witnesses are outside of United States, so we will have our Regional Support teams that will need to travel and conduct interviews, gather evidence, and from their present that evidentiary material to a United States attorney. With that being said, that can sometimes be the delay and one conducting the investigations and i would close by saying our credibility on this issue thank you. Senator grassley . Thanks, both of you, for your testimony. Im going to start with mr. Watson. Senator graham and i have introduced the human rights violators act, which among other things would formally authorize the center and the appointment director for the center. For those who may not be familiar, could you briefly, and i emphasize briefly because ive got some longer questions for you to answer, explain what the center does and use no safe haven as an example. Yes, sir. So to begin, the center and its operations has investigative support teams, Regional Support teams, as well as the human rights target tracking team. They all work among their inter Agency Partners in one vetting and validating leads tips. And then pursuing ongoing investigations. The center is robust, with over 77 members of that support ongoing human rights violators cases. That level of effort continues with Great Success, and we believe that if the center were codified, it would institutionalize Inter Agency Relationships and also sent a message to the International Community that the United States government affirms its position as the United States will not be a safe haven for human rights violators and war criminals. I think you just answered my next question, mr. Watson. The importance of formalizing and authorizing the center. So let me go on. Could you explain why the work of the center is so important in ensuring that human rights violators from around the world dont find a safe haven in the added states . The work of the center is important because with any conflict that occurs across the globe, victims come to the United States. They are seeking an opportunity to be free from perpetrators of war crimes. With that being said, sometimes the perpetrators will follow, and they also can come to the United States by way of fraud or false pretense. The work of the center in, one, leveraging our Regional Support teams, as well as our partnerships across the inter agency, the International Community, as well as ngos and academia are critical. One, to keep track as to events and conflicts that are occurring across the globe. Unintended, as well as consequences that present themselves. And then what the appropriate response will be in coordination with our inter agency and International Partners. Before i go to mr. Rosenbaum, i know that you also mentioned the importance of taking action on i just wanted to flag that the bill addresses that issue as well. Mr. Rosenbaum, i lead a bipartisan bill. The former chairmans graham and leahy, as well as others, to ensure we have jurisdiction to prosecute foreign war criminals who hide here. Often, the United States will have the option to extradite someone who commits war crimes in a foreign country back to the scene of the crime. Is this always the case . Or are there some instances where we need a domestic prosecution option . Thank, you senator. And were glad that you and the chairman share of the Justice Departments commitment to ensuring that the United States is not a safe haven for the perpetrators of a war crimes and other atrocity crimes. And also that we have the tools that we need to bring such persons to justice if they do get into the night of states. Extradition is sometimes an option, and the department of justice has pursued that. I think for example, the case of solomon who was investigated by my section, the human rights section, along with our partners outreach its own. We got him indicted with our partners in the u. S. Attorneys office for the district of new york for torture. But when his extradition was requested by bosnia and herzegovina, we shifted gears. The department worked hard to facilitate that extradition and it was, in fact, sent to bosnia and herzegovina to stand trial. In general, people should be tried near the scene of the crime to be judged by the communities they have offended. And in the federal Justice Department manual, the possibility of trial in a different form is something that prosecutors are supposed to consider in every case. But sometimes, for instance, if the government that directed the perpetration of the crimes is still in power, for example, extradition isnt practicable. But i have a followup . Through you, mr. Rosenbaum. Discuss some of the statutes that have been successfully used in jurisdiction. As you have mentioned, senator, there are numerous statutes that incorporate present jurisdiction. There are at least 21 of them, in fact. Congress has enacted title 18, the federal criminal code. Many of them relate to terrorism, and they run the gamut from incidents in airports that interfere with aviation, to multiplicitys of terrorism offenses. We also have president jurisdiction under the torture statute and under the genocide statute. As well as the statute criminalizing the useful recruitment of child soldiers which sounds and in the female genital mutilation statute. So the absence of present jurisdiction in the war crimes statute is sort of an outlier among the human Rights Enforcement statute. Thank you, mister chairman. Senator feinstein . Thank you, mister chairman. Id like to read to brief paragraphs and then ask you whether they are true or false. Last week, a team of experts commissioned by the United Nations Human Rights Council to look at Human Rights Violations in ukraine found that russia had committed war crimes in ukraine, including the use of beatings, electric shocks, and forced nudity against detained individuals. The experts have also been investigating alleged executions in kyiv, kharkiv, the southern regions of the ukraine and other places. In september, as the ukraine successfully pushed back Russian Forces, Police Investigators and war crimes prosecutors began investigating a recently discovered mass burial site in the city of izium. 450 bodies were discovered at the burial site. The vast majority were civilians, including white women, children, and elderly people. According to investigators, some of the bodies show signs of torture. The department has confirmed that during russias invasion of ukraine, there have been multiple credible reports of Russian Forces launching indiscriminate attacks in the city of mariupol that hit abc 8 are clearly marked to indicate it was for civilians. The strike killed 300. So, the question is, we now know what is going on. The question here is, what are we going to do about it . And so i would like to ask that question in an unvarnished way. What is the administration going to suggest that we do about this . Or mandate that we do about this. Thank you, senator. I cant speak for the entire administration. I cant speak for the department of justice. I think its a matter of Public Record that the government of United States is supplying extensive military security and humanitarian assistance to ukraine as the courageous people of that country fight for their freedom, and for the rule of law. On the Law Enforcement side, our War Crimes Accountability Team calls on the expertise of men and women throughout the Justice Department. We work with other agencies and Homeland Security. We are providing extensive assistance to the office of the prosecutor general in kyiv. Just one week ago yesterday, the prosecutor general of ukraine was here in washington. The chairman mentioned you met with him. And while he was here, he signed a memorandum of understanding with attorney general Merrick Garland that will supercharged our already robust cooperation with ukrainian authorities. Thats a two way street. We assist them in their work, and they are assisting us in our own investigations of potential war crimes where we may have jurisdiction under federal law. But its important, again, that no russians in the field and in moscow see that the department of justice and the rest of the u. S. Government stand solidly on the side of our partners in ukraine, including on the Law Enforcement side. We will, as i mentioned, whom mister chairman, id like to hear directly from the white house, what is going to be done about this . I have read the materials, and if this country doesnt stand up for this kind of behavior, against this kind of behavior, we really should be ashamed of ourselves. So id like to ask for this committee to really in writing provide the president with a letter that expresses those feelings more eloquently than i did right now. I agree with you, senator. And if you would like to initiate that letter, lets Work Together to put it together. Id be happy to, thank you. Senator cornyn . Thank, you senator chairman. I certainly joined my colleagues in supporting the bipartisan efforts we were discussing today. Mr. Putin and his cronies need to be held accountable for the crimes in ukraine. And i certainly support the efforts to provide additional authorities to the department of justice in order to bring those award criminals to justice. One piece of legislation and like to mention is the ukraine invasion of war crimes deterrent accountability act, which will direct the white house to direct a catalog of evidence for war crimes passed and president , so that they cant actually be prosecuted in a court. It passed the house in april, half out of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and is available as an amendment to the National Defense authorization act. We intend to offer that as an amendment. Mr. Rosenbaum, you noted that if someone guilty of a war crime is yet unproven and not convicted, makes their way into the United States. You lack the authority to prosecute them, is that correct . That is correct unless the perpetrator or victim was a u. S. National or a u. S. Service member. If we were to pass a law like when the chairman and Ranking Members and others of us support to provide Additional Authority to the United States government under those circumstances, that would only apply to prospective cases, correct . Under the constitution you cannot pass in expo factual law. Well, senator, as always it depends in the law. There is an argument can be made that for crimes that are universally condemned, like war crimes, for instance, it does not offend the constitution ex post facto clause to enact a law that has retroactive or retrospective jurisdiction. That certainly would be an argument that would be made and would have to be decided by the tribunal. He said in your written statement, perhaps in your verbal statement, i didnt catch it, that it is highly likely that some perpetrators of war crimes have made their way into the United States, correct . Yes, i wasnt speaking of russian perpetrated from the current conflict but rather war criminals from other conflicts, without a doubt. Of any origin . Are you aware that, currently at the u. S. Mexico border, Border Patrol is and countering people from as many as 150 Different Countries from around the world . I did not have the numbers at my figure tips, senator. That is certainly possible. You are aware it is from a variety of Different Countries . Not just mexico, not just central and south america . Yes, yes sir. I want to ask mr. Watson, are you aware that since january of 2021 that 45,000 russians have presented themselves at our southern border . Mainly at the san diego sector . Sir, i am aware of russian nationals appearing at the southwest border. That number, no, sir. Well, according to one newspaper report, quoting a woman by the name of irene flores, who spent the last seven years spending newspapers and magazines at the port of entry. She said she had noticed a huge influx of russians over the recent months. Given what is happening in russia and ukraine out, it isnt all that surprising. She was quoted as saying some crossed while running, others hide in the trunks of cars. I have seen some open doors and sneak into cars belonging to strangers. Cpp officers try to stop them and they run out of the cars and make a run for it. Can the department of Homeland Security say, with any sort of conviction or knowledge, that russian war criminals have not made their way into the United States, either through the asylum process or as one of these getaways . People who try to avoid detection . Sir, in my role and capacity as the assistant director for National Security, i can only speak to matters, today, that relate there to. To the best of my knowledge im not of aware of particulars to confirm that fact at this time. Do you know when people show up at the border and claim asylum whether they are vetted for things like war crimes . I do know that human rights target tracking team, and i do know through open source research, as well as database checks in collaboration with our icy partners that we do work to populate and provide reports to help inform dhs components and decisionmaking as it relates to conferring immigration benefits, as well as the department of state in granting visa applications, and approval there to. As a matter of fact the biden administration, the department of Homeland Security, do not know whether russians have appeared at our border, claimed asylum, or have committed as yet unprosecuted war crimes. According to mr. Rosenbaum, the department of justice would have no jurisdiction of if theyre here in the United States. Senator whitehouse. Thank you, chairman. Thank you to both of the witnesses for being here. Two questions i would like to ask. Because of time constraints and to give you guys a chance to be able to make more thoughtful and fulsome response i will offer them as questions for the record so that you can get Something Back to me in writing rather than deal with it now. The first question has to do with the scale of atrocities and russia. The severity of the cruelty is extreme, so is the scale of the conduct. That creates its own demands on the icc, in terms of having to deal with enormous amounts of information. Rundown thousands of allegations. Manage huge arrays of evidence. It is also a problem, i expect, for ukraine. As it goes about bringing its own planes against russia for the harm and atrocities committed on its soil by Russian Troops. The question is, what are we doing to support the icc, and the ukrainians, having the back office resources, data collection, evidence collection resources to be able to accomplish these purposes successfully . If a huge civil case, and a class action were brought in the United States, the firm bringing the class action on behalf of potentially thousands of plaintiffs would have resources in their firms to provide those resources to organize all of the preparation and make sure that communication with the plaintiffs and evidence et cetera were all gathered. Do you understand that question . Do you understand what im trying to get a . Youll get me an answer . Certainly, senator. Thank you for okay, ive got two minutes left. Let me jump to the second question. Mr. Watson, you are clear on what im asking for . Yes, senator. How are we helping with the back Office Support necessary to do what is essentially the biggest class action ever. The second have to do with demoralizing ukrainian officer corps which i think is a strategic value. We hear plentiful accounts of ordinary soldiers being disheartened, miserable, and demoralized. I think that that has an effect on the battlefield in ukraine. To the extent that we can also demoralize the junior officer corps i think that will also have an effect on the battlefield it seems to me that one way to demoralize the junior officer corps is to start calling out individuals by name who are associated with these acts of atrocity and brutality. To the extent that you can help us assemble that information, help us make it public, if you agree with that strategy, there is a bipartisan interest to try to bring that forward. So if you are a lieutenant, a major, a colonel in ukraine right now and you are asked to engaged in brutal and likely criminal activity you have right in the front of your mind that your future may well involve an orange jumpsuit someplace rather than a heroic welcome back in your mother country. That would be the second question. And just want to make sure that you understand the . If you have any questions about the question, youve got a minute. If you dont, get back to me in writing as to whether that is a purpose you would like to help us pursue . If i may, since we have a little bit of time, address the first question. Yes, the task that ukrainian prosecutors, our colleagues there, confront is a daunting one, indeed. Yes, it is massive i wear nothing like it in the law. We have been, at doj, consulting with them on different platforms for building a Case Management system. We have a lot of experience at justice in massive cases involving terabytes of information. Our criminal division, International Criminal training assistance program, its a tap, has actually helped the police in ukraine build an Intelligent Management system. Our time is up, but i would love it if you would send someone who knows about that to send a briefing on a bipartisan basis. I know we would appreciate it, if you could make that available it would be a helpful thank you chairman thank you senator whitehouse senator blackburn thank you mister chairman thank you to each of you for being here mr. Watson thank you for mentioning our that is something that many of us here have worked on for a number of years. We appreciate that. I want to change the subject just a little bit. We have talked a lot about ukraine but i want to move it over to china and the atrocities that are being carried out by the Chinese Communist party against the uyghurs. We have also seen an uptick in violations against the tibetans and mongolians. I have listened to you today and as i thought about what we are viewing, whether it is what is happening in russia, in ukraine, what we are seeing in china. What we are seeing in iran. I want to hear from you, how do we best move forward to hold the Chinese Communist Party Accountable for what they are doing . We hear there are 1 million uyghurs, they are holding in camps. We hear that others are targets, they are harassed. They are surveilled mr. Rosenbaum let me come first to you and then Mister Watson if you have anything to add to that. Thank you, senator again especially for you are concerned regarding these horrible crimes that almost unbelievably in the 24 century or still being committed. The two countries that you mentioned, neither of those countries is at war. And yet, crimes are being committed as the secretary of state, in particular, has made clear. [inaudible] or prosecute crimes committed outside the context of not state actors i control territory like isis is not controlled by a wartime statute. I think that is part of the answer, so that perpetrators know they may face justice even across the atlantic in the United States. Even besides that there are other sanctions and efforts on which the treasury department, congress department, state department, all elaborate thank you. Mr. Watson . Yes, senator. I would be pleased to note that we have a level of effort and engagement with regards to that topic. There are other hsi Program Divisions that are supporting inquiries as it relates to practices, relating to the uyghur population. I would note that our center to combat Human Trafficking is taking a lead posture with regards to the issue of forced labor, so i believe that would be an option to explore the level of effort across dhs being led by the cc h t. That could be of benefit. Are they actively engaged in the cartels . Monitoring the cartels, and what they are doing with Human Trafficking at the southern border. How are they addressing that . Thank you for that question. I would be happy to take that back. I would love to get an answer to that. When i talk to local Law Enforcement and what they are seeing with the Human Trafficking, the sex trafficking, the physical, emotional, mental, sexual abuse of people that are being brought across the border. Many times, it is just horrifying to think that this is happening. I think also, we look at what is happening in iran, and ive had so many tennesseeans say, we see the protests in iran. We see what they are doing to women. How could we possibly be negotiating with them on a nuclear deal . It seems inconceivable. I am glad to see senator grassley and senator grahams bill, dealing with human rights violators. I know that that is something the committee will choose to move forward on. Thank you all. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank, you senator blackburn. Senator klobuchar. Thank you for this hearing. We traveled to ukraine with president zelenskyy and defense minister ross nick off for over an hour. We went to and saw the apartment buildings blown out. We saw the mass grave, and it was just something im never going to forget. The barbarism of Vladimir Putin up front and center. I understand youve also travel to ukraine. Can you say a bit more about your experience there, and how its motivated your work to lead the Justice Departments war crime Accountability Team. Certainly, thank, you senator. So we have had similar experiences, though i have not been to the scene of atrocity crimes. On june 21, attorney general garland let a team of Justice Department personnel, but also ambassador from the state department, also fbi was represented. And we had Clint Williamson of the aca group with us, as well. And some of you may know, she was killed in a bicycling accident in bethesda few years ago. She was really one of the heroes supporting the people of ukraine through these nightmarish times. Its a terrible loss for her family, but really for the cause of justice and humanity. It was an experience unlike anything ive ever had. Nearly four decades of working on cases involving human rights crimes, because in all the other cases ive worked on, the criminal activity was completed. Sometimes it had been completed decades earlier, as was true for world war ii not see crimes. But here, we were in a war zone. And we it was so inspiring to see the courage of our colleagues in the office of the ukrainian prosecutor general, at a time when the military situation was arguably much worse than it is now. And they were determined to continue fighting for justice, but you could see on their faces the shock and despair, as im sure you witnessed. One of the prosecutors was actually wearing his combat fatigues. So i will say that that visit was about a week after the attorney general asked me to take on the ukraine task, and i greeted it with some trepidation. Is this something that i really could make a difference in . And by the time we left ukraine, i knew that if i i would do everything in my power with my colleagues at the special prosecution section, and i also want to the department to make a difference. Thank you. Could you talk just briefly about the next question. Can swift prosecution of war crimes that occurred early in a conflict, just based on your past experience, helped to deter future crimes from being committed as the conflict continues. Youre talking about the different senator, i do personally believe that. It is one of the fundamental bases of criminal prosecution. That is deterrence. And prosecuting as soon as possible, as soon as one can responsibly prosecute, we do believe that has a deterring effect. How are the atrocities in ukraine similar to the not sierra war crimes youve spent decades prosecuting . And what steps can you take today to ensure that the future prosecutions are successful . There are certainly areas of overlap, including fundamentally the invasion of a peaceful land. Ukraine, which has now suffered massive invasions twice within memory. Rampant war crimes, and crimes against humanity. So, again, that has similarities to crimes that invading naughty German Forces perpetrated in ukraine and poland and elsewhere. From a Law Enforcement perspective, if i may say, there are a number of differences. One of which is that the country that has the largest quantum of evidence is russia. In the naughty cases, the hitler regime was succeeded by a responsible west german government, which has provided for decades now extensive assistance in those not see cases. We are not expecting assistance from the russian government anytime soon. As to what can be done, we are obviously tracking the crimes, working closely with our ukrainian colleagues and other efforts in europe. I was privileged to represent the attorney and the ukraine accountability conference, the Ministerial Conference in july. 45 nations, ive never seen anything like it. 45 nations agreed that they would Work Together to document the crimes, provide the ukrainians with assistance they needed, and do whatever it takes, basically, to achieve accountability. I just have one last question, mister chairman, if you dont mind. The world knows about russian atrocities in ukraine, in large part because of the extensive reporting that journalists are doing every day. These journalists are exposing Vladimir Putins brutality, combatting the lies being spread at great personal risk. Many journalists have been killed by Russian Forces, while covering the war, including brand reno, an american citizen and fox news camera man. Pierres a chief ski, an irish citizen. Without getting into any specific case, can you speak to departments efforts to investigate the killing of journalists in ukraine. As the attorney general has said publicly, that is definitely an area of interest for the department. Those horrible victimizations and our hearts go out to the families. Of course, the when american citizens have been harmed or killed in ukraine, there is potential jurisdiction for the added states, and i cant go further than that except to say that we are playing close attention. Thank you for your remark. Senator klobuchar. Senator tillis . Thank, you sent mr. Chairman for holding thats hearing and thank you both for the work you are doing and your decades of service, mr. Rosenbaum. I am just putting some numbers to the pictures here. I think the un has estimated some 6000 civilians have been killed since the invasion of ukraine on february 24th. 400 of them are children. 9000 have been injured, almost 700 of them children. And the un also says they believe these numbers are probably low. I share a sentiment with senator blackburn on crimes against humanity, and Holding China accountable. I share senator cornyns concerns with people crossing the border illegally. They may actually be leaving it before they can get caught. But what i really am concerned about is swift action on the part of congress. Mr. Rosenbaum, you mentioned that filling the gaps could help us prosecute cases. Mister watson, in response to senator durbins question, i am curious for cases that we are pursuing here. What is our conviction right now . Once you finally bring a case, how successful our weight with prosecuting these cases based on the tools you have right now . Senator, thank you for your question. I am pleased to report that due to the efforts of our coordination with u. S. Attorneys as well as our principal legal advisers, we are relatively successful in presenting and achieving convictions on immigration, as well as National Fraud through perjury and false statement. Its due in part to the resilience and subject matter expertise of our special agents and support staff that we achieve these results successfully. So i cant give you a specific number, in terms of percentage. But as captured in my written testimony, we have several examples where our special agents went above and beyond in achieving successful conviction, sir. Mr. Rosenbaum, when you alluded to filling gaps to help proceed with particularly war crimes cases, are there legislative proposals that fit that mold that we should be moving quickly on . Or do we need more feedback from you on how exactly to tune it to make your job easier, and to bring more people to justice . Thank you for that offer, senator. We would indeed be eager to work with congress on legislation. We certainly endorse the idea of providing jurisdiction over war criminals who come here. And one of the lessons of the post world war ii era is in part because United States is the most generous country in the world in accepting immigrants. I wouldnt be alive, but for that. They will manage to sneak in, along with a majority of fine, upstanding immigrants. We are also interested in title age remedies, and i know the Ranking Member and others have been exploring that through legislation. We still do not have a an immigration bar for participants in persecution, or for war criminals. Literally, there is no title 18 inadmissibility provision for war criminals or prosecutors for some other category of participants in grave crimes. The chairman stepped out, but the chairman and Ranking Member, i have the privilege of being the colead for the Observer Group and i am following ukraine very closely. I think that chair durbin mentioned this is an important moment. I think it is. We have to think about it strategically. Youve seen putin call 300,000 additional troops who do not want to serve. Russian people are beginning to understand the atrocities that are occurring in ukraine. The kremlin has recently passed laws that are a ten year sentence for refusing to be a conscientious objector. And a 15 year sentence if you dont obey orders on the battlefield. There is nothing more important in terms of our strategic posture going into the winter than sending a very clear message that these are war crimes, and that we are going to provide every device available to prosecute anyone that we can. We have to have our nato allies join that, because i will tell you, it will have a major strategic effect on the battlefield. That requires congress to act now. This is not a discussion we should be having six months from now about how we finetune it. Before this congress ends, we should have a markup in this committee, we should fill the gaps, and we should send a very clear message to anyone that putin has called up to continue these atrocities, they will be held accountable. That will save lives in ukraine and its needed before we finish this congress, thank you. We completely agree at the department of justice. This is an urgent matter, senator. Thank you. I want to thank senator tillis. I agree with him as well. Senator blumenthal . I agree. I would like to be added to your bill. I understand your hearing, republicans and democrats. I hope that another of our republican colleagues, and more than one, will join so additional democrats can be included. I appreciate your leadership, mister chairman. You are Ranking Member is absolutely correct. It ought to be bipartisan. I want to the video that you showed. Mister chairman i couldnt help but think of my own father who came to this country in 1935. He was 17 years old. He came alone to escape what he saw coming. He spoke no english, he had virtually nothing more than a shirt on his back. He knew almost no one. This country gave him a chance to succeed. It gave him a chance to bring over his parents and his siblings and with the rest of his family perished. I had the same feeling of horror when senator graham and i visited bucha and a number of towns surrounding kyiv just a number of months ago. We met with president zelenskyy, i think for any american who sees these scenes of horror, they understand what it is like to visit i sound like bucha and talk to the mayor and others there about their losses. What they have seen and heard, those women and children tied behind the back, shot in the head because they had the courage to venture out of their homes. Sometimes in search of bread and water. In july, senator graham and i made a resolution to designate russia as a state sponsor of terrorism. It was passed unanimously by the United States senate. We have now introduced legislation that would require that it be designated a state sponsor of terrorism. I hope it will be adopted as well both in the senate and in the house by the same bipartisan majority. It would tighten the sanctions, increase in height in the consequences for russia. It would also permit actions to be brought in the courts of the United States against russia and others. They would be civilian action but i wonder if you could talk through some of the additional legal consequences to russia and to individuals there if russia is designated as a state sponsor of terrorism. Thank you, senator i think and i know that all americans share your revulsion in the wake of the ghastly crimes that have been perpetrated by Russian Forces in ukraine and continue to be perpetrated. But us for the terrorism question, that is beyond my experience, purview, at the department of justice. But i know of it is that it is ordinarily the secretary of state who makes the determination whether to add a country to the list, so to speak, of state sponsors of terrorism. As far as consequences are concerned, our work at doj in the War Crimes Accountability Team builds on a very successful efforts that have come out of the task force, kleptocapture, that the attorney general announced earlier this year. Many americans have seen the photos and videos of super yachts that havent seized from oligarchy that are facilitating russias invasion of unlawful and unjust invasion there is no question, sir, it would give you additional tools . It would give you, if nothing out, the moral sway and force that designating a country as a pariah. One of a small club. Cuba, north korea, syria, that are outside the group of civilized countries. Annexation, forced voting, to provide for annexation. Filtration camps where people, in effect, are detained simply because they are of a specific nationality. Genocide. Killing people because they are simply ukrainians. These are acts of terror. I think we could provide you with additional tools. My time has expired. I thank you both for your excellent work. I look forward to continuing to cooperate with you. Thank you, mister chairman. Senator blumenthal, we can add your name as a cosponsor but on this legislation. We are trying to keep it balanced turn on a. Im turned that senator graham is on his way. He is walking over . I hope he is walking fast. Are there any other we are just going to ask people to stand down for a minute or two. We will see if colleagues arrive. I want to give them a chance. Mister chairman . Senator, blumenthal. Could i have some additional time . Senator, you are invited to fill the lull. [laughs] if i can let me ask you, both of you about the filtration camps. It strikes me that they are very much like detention, i wouldnt use the word, necessarily, concentration camps but where do they rank in your view in the evaluation of war crimes . Again, that is a horrible situation that we are tracking closely. There is limited information, but not inconsiderable information on what is exactly transpiring there. Among the concerns is the transfer of people going through those camps to russia, proper. There, if they are mistreated, some would question whether war crimes lock continues to apply. In our country we dont have, we are almost alone among the nato countries. Theyre only two nato countries, i will include the two joining now, as having crimes against humanity laws. As far as i know only too do not. Of course, the United States is one of them. It is a another instance in which would be helpful to have crimes against humanity an american law books at long last. The chairman eluded, i will just conclude because i see my colleague, senator graham, has arrived. The chairman alluded to the question that he has been asked, i have been as well, whether the law could ever reach Vladimir Putin . My answer is, yes. At the very least, in my view, he could be tried and convicted in absence yeah. He is not going to be in that position forever. Maybe for less time than he expects. If he refuses to submit to the jurisdiction of a valid court, the International Court of criminal justice, couldnt he be tried and convicted in absense e. Again i cannot speculate on individual cases. That is not consistent with Justice Department policy i will say that the post cold war era has seen a number of heads of state brought before courts for, to be brought to justice in the wake of it across the crimes. Im glad you said that, i think there was a recent in cambodia. The experience under pol pot. That was decades ago, but the pursuit of justice continued. I think we have to make that clear. Senator graham. Thank you mister chairman. One, thank you for having this hearing. I appreciate. It working with you and others to try to find ways there are a couple ways i think we need to do. We need to continue to help ukraine, financially. They are fighting like tigers. They are using the equipment we give them to great effect. They need Financial Support to keep the government open and the lights on. The world can do more, but i think it is in our interest to make sure ukraine has the resources to continue the fight. There isnt effort to make russia a state sponsor of terrorism under u. S. Law. I think that could be a gamechanger. Hopefully we can move forward there. The other lane that we are interested in is letting the Russian Military know that we are watching. Mr. Rosenbaum, that is an Important Message to send . Thank you, senator. That is an excellent question. Certainly i agree that it is extremely important that russia knows that the free world is watching. That was one of the messages that i think was sent loudly from the ukraine accountability conference. They brought 45 nations together who said, we are watching. We are going to help achieve accountability. Mr. Watson, are you familiar with bipartisan efforts to change aspect, i think is the acronym to allow icc investigators to come to the United States and gather evidence regarding russian war crimes. Thank you for your son and, i am not. We will make you from here. Mr. Rosenbaum are you familiar with that . Yes, senator i am generally familiar. Im the we talked with mr. Sullivan yesterday, a group of us. The administration was openly supportive of a change in a law that would not subject american Service Members to icc jurisdiction. It would allow a small change in u. S. Law to allow the icc to come to the United States, access information that we have which is unique and would be pivotal to any case they brought against russian war criminals. Im hoping, senator durbin can deliver on that in december. I want to have a robust lane of assistance to the icc to start prosecutions early next year against russian war criminals, and let the Russian Military know that you follow putins orders at your own peril. When it comes to the benefit of International Prosecutions in terms of deterring future miss behavior, do you think that is a reality given the past . I think, senator, a lot of people thought that after nuremberg we would not see largescale atrocity crimes being committed ever again. With the benefit of hindsight, obviously, that turned out to be incorrect. Some of us thought with the end of the cold war we wouldnt see perpetration of large scale across the crimes. We were wrong about that as well. Lets just build on that. There will be an effort within congress to assist ukraine with the weapons and economic support they need to continue to fight. Their efforts to make russia a state sponsor of terrorism. Make it of the nation i category five other nations like north korea and iran. I think there is going to be in effort in congress to open up evidentiary lanes to the icc, so prosecution can become more real. If we can pull this off, my colleagues and i, by the end of this year by 2023 it can be a consequential year. If the russians and ukrainians see a flow of economic and military assistance, further isolation of russia by making them a state sponsor of terrorism, and a viable lane prosecution for the war crimes being committed right before our eyes, i think it could turn the tide of battle in 2023. We, as a congress, could have a great effect on the outcome of this world. I want to thank all of my colleagues, senator durbin, blumenthal, and others. I want to thank you for trying to get to that day. If putin uses a Nuclear Weapon, if he follows through on his threat if. That would be an attack on nato, writ large. The radiation would affect all of europe, not just ukraine. We are being blackmailed by one of the biggest thugs in the 21st century. Now it is time to stand up to that blackmail. Very quickly, Jake Sullivan gave the right answer when he said there would be catastrophic consequences if russia used a Nuclear Weapon in ukraine. He is right. I hope nato will reinforce that message. I Hope Congress will reinforce the message. If there is a Nuclear Explosion in ukraine directed by putin, that would be an attack on nato itself. All heck would come to bear on putin. If we do not send that message, we are making a huge mistake in regards to him and other thugs like him. I would also add, to senator graham, in the context of your helping my share, we have to make it clear that the results of the election will not change our determination on the bipartisan not one bit. Thank you thank you senator durbin and Ranking Member grassley for holding this hearing. Mr. Rosenbaum, and mr. Watson. Thank you for your service. And thank you for the difficult and compelling testimony delivered today. We all know from the accounts and what we have seen and heard from ukrainian witnesses that Russian Troops have been committing unspeakable atrocities at a big scale across ukraine. Torturing and murdering civilians. We have to take actions to make sure that our Global Leadership role as a defender of human rights continues to be a key part of our foreign policy. I am the cochair, with senator tillis of north carolina, of the human rights caucus. We often stand together to condemn perpetrators of crimes against humanity and to get the resources to get the our condemnation of Human Rights Violations across the globe. I traveled, last year, to countries like rwanda, the site of a horrific genocide, well after the show in europe. It is a reminder that genocide can continue to happen around the world. Recently been to ethiopia and sudan to hear from and meet a victims of those and the ongoing conflict of tea grade. I need to make sure that there is real accountability is a key step to repair communities harmed in this way. If im i, mr. Rosenbaum, thank you for being here today. The way that you and your team at the department of justice help ensure that standard set, following the nuremberg trials, and in terms of chasing to the ends of the earth to those who committed those sadly not unique but horrifying atrocities of the world war. Im glad to as the cosponsor of the victims war crime act, because it shows our commitment to deterring those atrocities. We currently lack the legal tools to block those bad actors who are in the United States. If this were to become law, what were the Additional Resources the doj were crime Accountability Team needs . Thank you, senator. For you and other senators on both of the aisle showing in supporting efforts to strengthen protections for human rights. And accountability efforts in the wake of Human Rights Violations. One of the ways that we pursue accountability is by having the statutory tools in our country that are needed by both of our agencies to pursue accountability. Right now, a perpetrator from bucha could come to the United States and we would not be able to prosecute he or horror for war crimes. That is just not acceptable i would submit. As far as resources are concerned, it is always the case that with more resources you can do more. We, at justice, are in sort of an unusual situation in but criminal assistant matters, Law Enforcement matters, in that our funding much of it comes from the state department. We are grateful for the taxpayer resources that are made available but it is unusual and perhaps not the most efficient way of proceeding for the Justice Department, which is a Law Enforcement entity to have to go to a nonLaw Enforcement entity and justify what we are doing. If i could, i have just a minute left. As the senator who chairs the committee that funds the state department, that was partially why i was near. A comes to my subcommittee. What are the most Critical Resources we need to provide you with actually implement this bill if it were moving forward. We could use more prosecutors. More historians, case analyst, for this work. Resources to help the ukrainians with what they are doing, that is time intensive and personnel intensive. That type of thing. What is the benefit in terms of deterrence for future crimes against humanity that would result from our actually prosecuting imposing criminal sanctions on those who come to the United States have committed war crimes . I think it would show a powerful message thats compared to the war were to situation when we waited until 1979 when finally, at congress insistence, we made a serious effort to root out these people and bring them to justice after a fashion. Now we are moving immediately. Mr. Watson, if i might just briefly, the same question to you for dhs. Homeland security investigations, one of the Additional Resources we should be trying to provide . What impact do you see in terms of a deterrent for other crimes against humanity. Thank you, senator, we are greatly appreciative of the appropriated resources we, as i, receive. And for the human rights violated war crime center. The money we receive is extremely helpful in playing salaries as well as facilitating training and travel for our special agents, Regional Support teams, conducting investigations and inquiries inference to case development, prosecution, and administrative removal. Thank you in advance for those appropriated funds that we have received. I do believe that to continue that momentum there is and enduring requirement as it relates to training and outreach. As our workforce matures, we are often time running advanced training scenarios at least twice per fiscal year. In doing so we work to identify not only new special agent but two legal it by others and also historians. Has we work to transition and train our workforce to include new personnel to support these investigations, those appropriations are critical. Not only in ensuring that we have properly trained and ready in response work forth, but that we continue to protect our criminal investigations, administrative proceedings, and our removal. They would be helpful to continue that level of effort in accordance with our efforts. Senator, currents. Senator ossoff . Thank you senator. Thank you for your work to hold war crime encounters accountable. Mr. Rosenbaum, i appreciate your personal analysis, if you are willing, on how the alien tort statute is situated with respect to non u. S. Persons who may wish to bring suit in u. S. Court against those who committed war crimes abroad. The Supreme Court has narrowed the applicability of the alien tort statute. What is your view of if its still a fourth any scope on such litigation . With apologies, i have to confess that that is beyond my experience at justice. I am not well positioned to address those are civil remedies. Im have not had experience with them. I am sure that our office of legislative affairs would be pleased to get back with your staff if you which. I will engage with your colleagues. I suggest, mister chairman, that that is something that we should think about when we consider this legislation. This is also beyond your specific purview, but i think that both of you will be able to offer and inform perspective on this, particularly as there is Inter Agency Collaboration to address these issues. How have you experienced the u. S. Sanction regime to foreign authorities, for example, to target through man nitschke or other statutes, more criminals . Do you believe theres an opportunity to strengthen the underlying statutes. We can start with you, Mister Watson. Thank you, senator, for the question. We have had Great Success by way of our global schemes, the investigative support teams. I would like to highlight our investigation as it relates to the bangladeshi rapid action battalion, which was successfully designated pursuant to executive order 13 818. We did have success there, pursuant to information and intelligence which substantiated, in excess, 600 extrajudicial killings committed by the rapid action battalion. There is a good level of effort in coordination between the department of state, state justice, and treasury. I would like to highlight that of an example as a recent success that was accomplished across those three departments. At the same time i do think and believe that there is an opportunity for more in that arena and area. I think as we continue to focus on new opportunities to include Inter Agency Collaboration at the center that we can present opportunities that could be successful in this theater as well. Thank you mr. Watson. Mr. Rosenbaum, anything to add . I would echo what assistant director watson has said. There is excellent coordination among the persian agencies as a result of which, i think it is fair to say the United States is among the leaders in the world in calling out, identifying, and sanctioning human rights violators. As always, more can be done. Thank you, mr. Rosenbaum, im not sure i confess to what extent you had to dig in on the specific texts that senator durbin has put forward. Are you familiar with the precise outlines on what hes suggesting in terms of revisions to the law . If you are speaking to the bill that has been introduced, the justice for victims of war crimes, certainly we have looked at it. Let me ask you this question, if i might. As i understand the legislation it would expand the capacity of doj to prosecute persons who are in the United States for offenses committed abroad. What would be the issues that the Department Might consider, or Congress Might consider, when thinking about extradition in this contact. Persons who are not in the United States but could be brought here for purposes of committing atrocities overseas. That is an excellent question. The justice manual which guides us as prosecutors requires us to consider, in making prosecutorial recommendations and decisions, the possibility of prosecution in other venues, even other countries. Extradition practice is an important part of what the Justice Department does. The office of international affairs, criminal division, coordinates that for the entire department of justice. We have had cases, one case in particular comes to mind, where we indicted someone for torture. It turned out that bosnia and herzegovina wanted to try him there. In fact we stopped our case. We extradite him to bosnia and herzegovina so he could be judged in the community where the offenses occurred. Also that would not require u. S. Taxpayers to foot the bill. How about in the other direction . Would there be circumstances authorized under senator durbins proposal, or under existing law whereby the u. S. Could pursue the extradition of those located overseas into the United States for prosecution here . Of course people are extradited in any number of scenarios. War crime prosecution under the statute . I dont know that the bill, as i have seen it, would enhance that authority. Where we are really lacking that ability is under the torture statute. If someone, god forbid, tortures at american. Under color of law, outside the conflict, a u. S. Citizen, a u. S. Service member grabbed off the street, god forbid a u. S. Official, we cannot indict that person because the person, the offender, isnt presently in the United States. They are not a u. S. Citizen. If we cannot charge the, we cannot seek their extradition. Mister chairman, with your indulgence, i asked senator padilla if he was okay with it. If you dont nine, because it is so important. With senator pattys permission, of course. We all rely on senator pattys we provided by the congress in our oversight and oversight work should not be concerned i thank you in advance, yes. Senator. My final question, what limitations when theyre be on the use of u. S. Intelligence and evidence that is secured by the u. S. Intelligence community . Potentially, for example, sensitive signals intelligence for the purposes of making war crime prosecution or other more crime jurisdictions . Again, another excellent question. There are circumstances in which the u. S. Intelligence community can make information, evidence available, that would assist prosecutors. There are elaborate procedures for that. There are, we have close contacts with our colleagues in the icc. I cannot go into specifics, of course, but it certainly can of course you cannot go into specifics on sources and methods. I do want us, to think whether or not there are impediments in using information which is available to the u. S. Government with hope holding more crime officials accountable . We can sit down in a if i may, one impediment we have at the war crimes acts. As it currently stands our prosecutors are required, in order to bring a war crimes case, to establish whether the Armed Conflict was an international Armed Conflict or a noninternational arm conflict. What are the complications there is the information that we need to make that showing can be classified. It can also involve delicate questions of foreign affairs. We favor, therefore, eliminating the distinction between nonin this international context. They would also enable us to prosecute a full array of egregious for crimes across the board, irrespective of whether they were committed by isis in a Non International im confident or by russia in an international Armed Conflict. Senator padilla is clearing his throat, a better rap. Up thank you, mister chair. I know it has been a lengthy substantive hearing. I appreciate the participation of both our witnesses. I will apologize in advance by jumping into some leads here. The questions that remain to be asked to get technical and specific. I will start with mr. Watson. In your testimony you mention the crimes of genocide and other war crimes merely carry the generic fiveyear statute of limitation when the limitation do not result in death. You also stated that the crime of torture carries an eightyear statute of limitation if the acts do not result in death or serious Bodily Injury or the foreseeable risk of such. Take this as an openended question, do you believe the statute of limitation changes proposed in the justice for victims of war crime act are step in the right direction . Can you reference any unique data or experience to support the suggestion for the changes . Thank you, free questions, senator. Yes, it is my response. I do believe the changes to the extension of the statute of limitations would be helpful to the Law Enforcement partners that the war crime center. I would just highlight in support of that assessment our investigation of a rwanda national, Beatrice Minnie has the, who was implicated in genocide in rwanda in 1994. She, by way of fraud, came to the United States in 1998. Through nine trips by the boston special agents to rwanda to collect information of evidentiary purpose of in prosecution. It was not presented until in or around 2010, i believe it was. Nevertheless, she obtained u. S. Citizenship in 2003. When we look at the context of 1994 when the to see in hutus were engaged in those heinous crimes against humanity, and genocide, clearly with the statute being what it is, there was more time, right . And excess of ten years before our special agents and Regional Support team members were able to work with our International Partners to obtain the relevant evidence to execution and even so we only presented fraud by way of naturalization and potentially perjury as to substantive charges that were ultimately affected where immunity was convicted. I would say by way of that situation and that investigation where which sentenced to ten years. Ultimately served over seven. She was subsequently deported to rwanda and is currently on trial right now for the crimes of genocide. That specific instance would apply. That is an excellent example. Safe to say that the five and eight year statutes that i referenced serve as a disincentive of longer term identification let alone prosecution. Coming back to mr. Rosenbaum, your knowledge and your testimony that i current body of substantive human rights laws are limited by significant jurisdiction, evidential, limitations. One of the justice for war crimes act would allow the department of justice to prosecute alleged war crimes who are present in the United States, it would require establishing specific intent to prove alleged offenders have proved genocide and torture, presenting an insurmountable evidentiary bar. Please explain how our current evidential career russian nationals, president in the United States for crimes committed in ukraine . Thank you senator. Because we do not have a socalled present jurisdiction, in general, russian war criminals who might come here would not be prosecutable criminally for the war crimes. Justice department believes strongly that that should be corrected. I would say, also, going back to the discussion or the question that you propose to my colleague, assistant direction watson. Statutes of limitation definitely should be expanded, as we see it, not only for substantive offenses but also for the immigration and naturalization fraud cases. They are often are only recourse and human rights violator cases. Five years for visa fraud in ten years for naturalization fraud. As you probably know, it is often decades before the government even knows about the underlying human rights crimes. By then, in the statute of limitation has run out. That was our experience in all of the war were to not see cases, for instance. Thank you very much. We will have other questions for the record. Thank you mister chairman. I want to follow up with mr. Watson, in new testament you talk about one prosecution, mohammed job today i thought it was interesting that even though there are limitations and we discuss them mr. Job today was sentenced to 30 years in prison for immigration fraud and perjury the fiveyear limitation to sentencing did not apply in that case they found another statue to charge him under. For that investigation it was visa fraud and title 18 under the code 15 46. Also perjury in United States got 16 21 those were the two statutes that were used to convict what is interesting to know about muhammad jo beta, as his activities which result to a liberian Truth Organization and entity that he participated there in those crimes or still against. In terms of what was alleged in terms of killings, in terms of torture. Also in terms of Sexual Exploitation and also desecration of corpses consumption of human remains. By far his activities work right egregious, to where it would shock the conscience. Where that information was introduced, there were, i would submit, aggregating factors to suggest the opportunity to senators at that level in accordance with a priest investigation. Can i zero in on this . Ask you, when it came to a visa fraud what was the question that he lied to . Thank you for that question. I would have to take that back and get your response on that, sir. Okay, all right. I think the gravity of the situation, we have had a good hearing and exploring it throughout the beginning. I appreciate the witnesses and their testimony. Forgive me, as a senator of illinois for quoting a man from illinois who was president in the 19th century. 1862 lincoln said, speaking of our obligation to abolish slavery, we even we hear hold the power and bear the responsibility. Today it is within our power and our responsibility within this committee to ensure that this country can never be used as a safe haven by perpetrators of atrocities. It is clear that we have much work to do to fulfill the promise of nuremberg. I hope you noticed the bipartisanship that was on display today. It is real. There have been many meetings to evidence that fight. Im glad that my colleagues on both sides of the aisle share my opinion on the role of this committee in this congress, particularly as it relates to the situation in ukraine with that the Senate Judiciary committee will stand adjourned