Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jim 20240704

Jim is here, of course to talk about his very and revealing book code name blue wren the true story of americas most dangerous female and the sister she betrayed. Jim was a journalist for for quite a few years and including a long and productive time at nbc, where he created an Award Winning Investigative Unit and served as its senior producer. He was at nbc when the 911 attacks happened. And like many journalists, got caught up in covering the immediate aftermath. So he wasnt able to pursue a story that broke just ten days after 911 about the arrest of an American Woman at Defense Intelligence agency caught spying for cuba. But jim remained very curious about the case for reasons that im sure hell hell explain in a minute and he kept returning to it a after the woman who was named ana montes, she was a welleducated daughter, a u. S. Military officer, a while after she pleaded guilty and was sentenced in 222 to 25 years in prison. And jim, a cover story about for the Washington Post magazine nearly a decade ago and now in his new book, hes able to put all the pieces together and answer such nagging questions about how ana able to operate as a spy at pentagon for 17 years, what secrets she divulged why she did it, and how investigate hers finally managed to to track her down. Its been said a number of times that anas the most dangerous spy, that most folks have never heard of. And she was definitely very skilled at her craft, very efficient and and deceptive and also devastating and and jim will go into, you know, what what what she was was guilty of. But the story that he tells is, not just one of espionage, its also a sad family tale because a betrayed not only her country, but more personal lee, her family, her brother, sister in law were fbi agents and her only sister, lucy, worked for the bureau as. A Spanish Language analyst for while assisting actually in uncovering spies in the United States. And you know, talk about a welltimed book ana was in the news again just last week having 21 years and three months. She was freed, a federal prison in texas last friday and granted, early, Early Release due largely to good publishers, has called jims book a must read for espionage. Fans now in conversation, jim will be a one of his former nbc colleagues. Im sure hes familiar to many of you williams who covered the Justice Department and Supreme Court for the network for 29 years before retiring last july an early in his career, pete was a tv news in wyoming, where he grew up and he came washington in the mid 1980s to work for thencongressman cheney. When cheney became defense, pete was tapped as the pentagon spokesman, which brought him to national prominence. And after that government stint, he returned to news reporting. So were delighted to have both them here tonight. Please join me in welcoming jim popkin and Pete Williams on. Publishers weekly has said nothing about, by the way, jim, you look vaguely familiar to me. The reason is that jim and i actually together at nbc in the Washington Bureau and we were working together when the 911 attacks happened. And thats one of the reasons why this spy case got really no attention. At the time the country and journalists were otherwise occupied, i, i want to go over three areas with you. Number one is what she did and how damaging it was. Number two, i think, is the remarkable ability you had to. Add a lot of new detail in this book. I used to work at the defense department. You quoted people who worked in the Defense Agency on the record by name. I think thats pretty. And then thirdly, jim popkin. These days, a Media Consultant and any of you consider ing writing a book and having somebody handle it, you might ask yourself, how was it that you managed to get this book to come out just as she was coming out of prison, which i think is a pretty good trick. But i want to ask, first of all, what were you doing . An animal, cortezs apartment. I dont know if my friend john is here. There he is. John is my roommate and very close friend. And john used to own apartment. So as young man in washington spent a lot of time in johns condo. And after 911, as pete, i was aware of the story. We really couldnt cover it. And reached out to me and informed me that ana montes had bought his condo. And its kind of stayed in my head. And it is always kind of given me a personal connection to this story. So lets talking about ana montes. What did she do for the United States government and how good was she at doing it . Ana was an analyst for the dia, the Defense Intelligence, which is kind of the cia for the us military. And she was really good her lets call it her day job. She kind of kept her head down, worked hard. She worked right through lunch every day and she was just very very competent. She had Carte Blanche access to classified documents at dia as a analyst and use that to great effect in her night job. Lets call it was she widely wellregarded by the intelligence . As a matter of fact, she was sorry. We weve had this shtick for a long time. Ana was promoted numerous times, got cash awards from dia. She was considered among the very best in the military and at dia. She became our nations really leading expert on cuba, especially regarding politics in the military, and was a real pro. She was also a very difficult person. She was somewhat derisively as the of cuba and didnt suffer fools was the kind person who would walk you in a hallway and sometimes not even acknowledge you could be very, very brusque with people and difficult. So she she had fans, but she also had enemies. But she was decorated, right . I mean, she got sorts of awards from the director of the cia and all sorts of senior government officials. Is there any suggestion, jim, that the information that she was up for the government was wrong, that she was telling us stuff that wasnt true . Mostly what she did was legit. Some folks believe some officials believe that there are a couple of documents that she, including in 1998, an assessment of cuba that went to the secretary of defense and then was reported to congress. Some officials believe that she shaded the truth in that in discounting cubas threat particularly regarding their intelligence capabilities. But by and large what she did as an analyst was reviewed by a large group of people. So it would be hard for her to put her thumb on the scale too many times. So i want to play a little bit of audio and then i want you to tell us it is. See how well its going for. Her. Now. Now, i dont know if you can make out any of those that those are numbers. Thats a woman reading a series of numbers on a shortwave radio transmission. It sort of sounds like its going to end. So i was going to help you. Its it goes until 9 p. M. So it sounds of like somebody announcing the powerball winner for cuba. But but what is this and why did it play a role in her case . Thats a numbers broadcast. That is an actual recording of a woman in a sound studio in havana. And she would read a series of 150 digits in spanish. This is how the cubans communicated with their spy in the u. S. And around the world. So on. What she would do. By the way, this is a real story on a lived as i mentioned in Cleveland Park on mccomb street and frequently this this area she would from this safety and security of her condo on mccombs street she would listen to a shortwave radio to these kind of broadcasts and it would it would be on a loop. So you could hear it several times. And she would write down these numbers in in spanish and then type them into her toshiba computer. And she had a program in there. The cubans had provided to decrypt these numbers. Theyre meaningless to anyone else, even if you had a shortwave radio, you might that and obviously not know what it is. So she would decrypt it in that that is how she got her message her her tasking orders that week. She would typically listen twice a week to the shortwave radio and, then communicate in person, often with her handlers in washington. So you said she, an ace expert cuba for the United States government for how much of that time was she, in fact, also spying for cuba . She was recruited by cuba prior to working for government for the dia, the military, ana. So she was a spy from day one . Correct she started she was with the department of justice first in the freedom of information act office. She got her security clearance. Their initial one. She went to graduate school, Johns Hopkins here in their their program called, sace. And it was there that she someone who brought her and introduced her to a cuban intelligence agent. They got in havana together how to be spies, kind of spy 1 to 1. And at that point, the cubans directed her and helped her to to apply. And that included applying to dia. So from the moment stepped foot in dia in 1985 she was already a fully committed and trained cuban spy. So how did she get what she was giving the cubans how did she it out of the building . Because somebody must have noticed she was carrying out documents on. And one of the reasons that she was successful for nearly 17 years is, she was careful. And that meant not carrying documents of the building, with very few exceptions. She memorized and in fact, i know im sure were going to talk about her family, but her family, parts of her family cooperated with me for the book and they have on those books that were on the mccomb street apartment in in a house now in south florida. And i was able to look through her books, which was interesting and maybe creepy to some of you. And one of her books is on improving your memory after fact, the cia did an after action report and they they talked to on a debriefed her extensively. These were psychologists with the cia and they that she had a good memory an amazing memory but a good memory. But i believe that using this book and other techniques, she improved her memory and therefore every day for nearly 17 years she memorized reams of classified documents them at night and was able provide just a volume of material to cuba. So the cubans communicated with her via shortwave radio. How did she what she was giving the cubans to them. She primarily put her information on disks and then hand them off to a handler in restaurants and they often went to chinese restaurants in d. C. , usually by the met by a metro and in safe area. She had a real fear of street crime here. She met with her handlers in caribbean islands many occasions and in cuba, well, both on unofficial to cuba, when she would sneak in wearing a wig and using a fake passport and even on official sanctioned trips to cuba on behalf of the dia, she would get away from her colleagues and go and meet with their handlers. Havana, which is obviously risky. Okay. You mentioned her family, so tell us about that. Where is she from . And tell us about her family. Ana was born on a military base. Us base in germany, but she came as a i think a two year old. The family moved originally to topeka, kansas and then to just outside of baltimore. Her parents were born in puerto rico. Her father was a doctor who became a psychiatrist, a freudian psycho, which is fascinating. We can discuss. And her her was a homemaker, then ended up working for the government. Very bright, capable on a went to school in high school in tulsa and then went to uva and then, as i said, she went and got a degree masters degree at sise. So what did discover about her past that you think led her to betray her country . She was politically liberal, but she really got radicalized during her junior year abroad in madrid. She met this is in the late seventies. She met and fell fell for. An argentinean student was very politically radical and there was a whole community was very anti american. And anti authoritarian as well. So she she kind of fell in with this crowd as a as a junior in college and then at sites she would surround it by a lot of like minded folks. And, you know, keep in mind the context that this was the reagan era president reagan was very combative some would say bullying, in central america. And and many of her classmates really reacted against that. There are some suggestion that she was abused by her father. Do you think that played a role, that it made her, you know, hate authority . I think so i mean, you know, its hard to put her on the couch. Exactly. But in reading this classified document, the cia from the cia psychologists, they certainly thought so. And a just quick take on her father, dr. Alberto montes, really brilliant guy. First in his family to go to school, educated in the us. He could be very loving and it was a theres a lot of nice attributes to say about him in the family will still make sure that im im especially aware of that. However he had a heroin temper. He was abusive to his children starting at age five. He used to on them for any childhood, childlike transgression. The kids and, the his wife lived in fear of him. On to the outside world. This is successful, decent guy is a doctor after all. And hes Walking Around in his lab coat. He also was in the military. He he ultimately retired as a colonel in the us army. So again, from the outside he really seemed to be a respectable member of the community at home, had a horrendous temper. He beat the kids, he harmed his wife, his second marriage. I learned in the reporting in this book, i met his stepdaughter and his second marriage. He repeated this behavior, he really, really the children and he also one night beat his wife as well. So to answer your question yes, i think ana was, heavily influenced by this he represented to her authority in the us army. However, i will say that lucy was raised the way on a sister. Lucy ultimately worked for the fbi. Did her brother tito . They are patriotic, loyal americans. They never decided to spy for cuba. So lucy didnt just for the fbi, though, did she . I mean, what was her job . Lucy became, a translator with the fbi out of the Miami Field Office of the fbi. She worked drug cases for a long time, but then, amazingly, she was assigned a unit dedicated to cuban spies. She had no idea until anas arrest that sister was the greatest cubans of all time. Did they think did did lucy think her sister was pretty weird . Yes. To to a lucy and honor as little girls were really and on as the older sister took care of lucy took her to school to her. They had a very very close relationship for for a long time. It started to change in in high school. By the time they were both their professional careers and on this now spying, she became very odd, taciturn withdrawn wouldnt any information personal information of any sort with her sister. Now you write family gatherings where she would just sort of sit there and not say anything. Yeah. So they figured something was going on, but they just didnt know it was they didnt know what it was and. Lucy it was almost like gaslighting a way. Lucy in interpreted all this and just wondered, is me or am i doing something to this . And she was just confused and it really harmed the relationship. You and i have covered a lot of stories about spies for, the government, and oftentimes they got paid. How much did the cubans pay . Ana montes ana was motivated by ideology and she was a political. She almost never took money. Unlike Robert Hanssen at fbi or rick ames, who really enrich themselves. Ana took essentially a couple thousand during her 17 year career. So how was her spying . She is one of the most damaging spies in us history and i would argue the most damaging female spy. And by the way, stop right there. If would how is it to have a woman spying against the United States for a foreign country . Still very rare. There are statistics that say only about nine or 10 in the modern era have any been women. And i want to get ahead of the story here, but is that one of the reasons why maybe the government slow to pick up on her . Because they thought well, shes a woman. Shes not a spy. Well, to to some extent, i mean, theyre also basing this on the clues that they had provided to them. But, yes, i think that was part of it. Okay. You started say that she did this strictly for ideological reasons, but how damaging was it . She was very damaging for a couple of reasons. Number one, she provided the true identities of americans operating in havana. These likely cia operatives who are overseas or maybe based in havana. By providing their names, it obviously blows their cover. Its a dangerous little game to play. In one case, the cubans said back to her. Thank so much. We were waiting for him whoever his real name was with. Open arms. That was extremely damaging to whatever plans the us had. Cuba. Secondly, she provided the names of hundreds of other americans who were working on any cuban matter, any cuban intelligence matter. She just by virtue of 17 years of spy ring, just reams of classified information. Again, that memorized primarily and. Then lastly, she also revealed the existence and provided details on a classified side multibillion dollar stealth satellite codenamed misty misty was used by the Us Government to spy success fully on russia, china, iran and our other adversaries on. A learned about it. She got read into it. Very few people knew about it. Even even at dia. She immediately passed that information. The cubans and it is believed that that Program Never again or never worked as well. The cubans have a long track record of selling or sharing information with the russians and others. So i have a few more questions to ask you. Then well invite questions from all of you, from the vast number of jim popkin fans here in politics and prose. But lets talk a little about how she was finally captured, what what it that gave her up. Did anybody or any of her colleagues at dia begin to think maybe she was a spy . There was one who had some suspicion about her and brought it with Security Officials there. And in fact, one of the heroes of this story is a dia investigator named carmichael. Scotts written his own about this from his perspective. It came out over a dozen years ago. Scott actually interviewed because there was a lot of suspicion, but it never really went. Why was there suspicion . One of honors colleagues thought that she was poking her nose much into meeting or trying to attend meetings, that she shouldnt go in and other odd behavior that just raised some red flags. But it was scott who interviewed. Did anything come of that . Not really. He he he had essentially closed the case, but it stayed in his. And that became important later. And why what happened later . Well, thank you for asking. Youre welcome. Later what happened is the nsa, the national, why i agreed to do this and. By the way, he was my boss for five years. So this is an odd experience. Later, the the nsa, the National Security agency, got on to these Cuban Communications that pete played, and they learned how to decode them random, but they learned how to decode them. They followed this and they realized that there was a lot of conversation about a mysterious agent. S and they were trying to obviously figure out who that is. They didnt know who that person. But it was clear that agent s worked at a pretty high level. The Us Intelligence community. The nsa gathered. These clues up and briefed the fbi. The fbi obviously is the organization that that investigates espionage. The fbi took more than two years trying to figure out and based on the clues they thought it was a man they thought probably at cia. But the reality is they kind of spun their wheels for a long time a very brave analyst at nsa. I interviewed her and she goes under a pseudonym. I call her elena in the book. She would not take no for an answer. She got very frustrated, the fbi, that this wasnt going anywhere. She went behind the back, the fbi, and found investigators at dia, where coincidentally on work that she didnt know this at the time. She shared these clues with the dia. Again, fbi didnt know about this. And when they learned they were not happy. The analyst elena was threatened with fired and being over this what they thought was a transgression the dia got these clues entered them into their database and in no time at all found ana montes his name on a list. Other basically suspects. But Scott Carmichael was one of the investigators who got these clues and he had interviewed ana several years before. So her pops up on this computer database. He just said, im were being were televised. So i cant say he said, but words the effect of, oh, gosh, yes, yes. And and he basically figured this out very quickly, obviously went, to corroborate it, brought this information in to the fbi. They fought him for quite a while. Ultimately agreed that there was something. They opened a full field investigation in late 2000 and to skip ahead in may 2000, one, they got special court to enter honors apartment. John broders former apartment and and they searched it. It was a black bag job. They searched it. They found her shortwave radio and. They found her toshiba laptop. They copied the laptop closed the door didnt, even disturb the dust and a couple of days later, the fbi investigators learned that she had been communicating back and forth with cuba. Her one biggest mistake was properly deleting her files. And theres hilarious back and forth. Its like the cuban version of a genius bar where theyre saying to her on, ana, please, were actually not ana agent s, please remember to go this file and hit this. And she ignored their tech instructor and left some of these files on laptop. And that is really what convicted her. Did she sense they were on to her before she was arrested . Not really. After the fact. She she in debriefing. She told the fbi that she heard them once while she was being followed all northwest d. C. But if she did, it begs the question, why didnt she not leave then . So i think that tells the story of her pretty. Well. I want to talk a little bit about your reporting for this book, because i i must say, you know, despite the fact that i know you and have long respected you, i think its an extraordinary reporting job. For one thing. How did get those people at the Defense Intelligence agency or not the most valuable folks around to talk to you on the record . I had the advantage of time here because. I really have been looking at this for 15 years. The the took place starting in 1985. Its been long time. I interviewed people and then reinterviewed them. They loosened up a little bit over time. And you also got extraordinarily cooperation from members of her family. That right . Yes. You want to give a just a quick shout out to lucy montez. As i mentioned lucy joined the fbi. She had no idea what was going with her sister. This has been a really emotional week for lucy. Lucy is so distraught with what her sister did. The family is. However, this is her sister. She still loves her flaws and all. And shes trying figure out now this new part of her life on a just got of prison on friday how to be a sister if she can. Were they at all sympathetic what she did or did they understand it at any level . No. Okay. When she was sentenced ana montes, im looking at the at the transcript of her sentencing hearing, and heres what she told the judge is ana montes. I obeyed my conscience rather than the law. I believe our governments policy toward cuba is cruel and unfair. Profound and neighborly. And i felt morally obligated to help the island defended self from our efforts to impose our values and our political system on. She just got out of after what 21 years or so did all years in prison change her mind . Not at all. So on a just yesterday released an incredible statement through her lawyer. She is not apologetic. She said shes going to try to keep a low profile and probably will do any interviews. But remarkably to me, she criticized us policy. She immediately went on the attack regarding the us embargo with cuba and it very fiery aggressive for someone whos just out of prison after 21 years. So one of the things that you say in your book is that it would be a mistake to think of cuban government as sort of feckless when it comes to intelligence. I mean, we dont think of the of cuba as having a highly advanced intelligence capability. But what does ana montes story tell you about that . The cubans are really good at this. They were trained by soviets. They dont have a lot money, but theyre scrappy and competent and ana montes is the best example of that. You just think of what they did. They essentially meet a young woman in graduate school. They they like what they hear from her publicly. They introduce her via another student named Marta Velasquez and introduce her to a cuban agent. And then they wait while this young works her way up the for 17 years. Its remarkable. And it really says a lot about the patience and, the creativity of their intelligence service. Even though the the tradecraft was very basic. Correct. Listening on a shortwave radio. Now, the third thing i want to talk to you is about the timing of the release of your book. Bill. Bill harlow, who is the best spokesman the cia ever had, writes a blog about intelligence. He calls it exquisitely timed book. And by the way, on bill and his and his review, he gives it the highest rating of that website for trenchcoat for real for trench coats. So how do you get up the publishing world, which not known for being you know fast on its feet to have your book come out as shes getting out of the slammer . How did you do that. Or these trade secrets cant. No, no, no, no. I mentioned that i have been collecting string this for 15 years, so one would think that maybe 40 years ago i might have decided. Yes, going to write a book. I decided about two years ago to write a book. I was fortunate enough to find a great publisher and it all came together, but it was a very aggressive well, it didnt just all come together. You must have made it come together. It was an aggressive timetable, and i had the advantage of having done, you know, so interviews over the years for post piece and other work. And so i had a kind of a starting place, but it was quite scramble. And i wrote in about seven or eight months and this all started. This is not the first time youve written about this case. I should said this at the beginning. You wrote this years ago, right . Ten years ago for the Washington Post magazine. And thats that sort of what got you did at the time you finished that article. Did you say, okay, well, thats it for this. Im not going to do a book. Or when did you decide to do the book . Truth be told, i mean, i that and i think thankfully it got optioned right away. And so a lot of what does that mean for a possible movie or tv series so a of the ongoing work was in of that which goes on to day. So fingers crossed indeed. Okay. All right. Its your turn, ladies and gentlemen, if you have questions for jim popkin about his book code named blue ran. By the way, what does that mean . Code blue. Red. Code name . Blue. Blue run is the code named that the fbi gave to case. And i was happy to see on it. In her picture that was released yesterday is wearing a blue blouse. Its just good branding for me. Wow. Yeah. All right. If have questions. This is being streamed. Its also being recorded on cspan. And its going live to havana. If you have questions, we would ask, you would come to the microphone, please, which is right over there, because otherwise the folks watching streaming feed will not be able to hear what youre. Yes, sir. If she to read your book, what would you hope her take away would be that she wouldnt ever attack me me. No. The book is very harsh on her. And i did see after i wrote this Washington Post piece ten years ago. She wrote a letter to a friend who may be here tonight and will see her friend maybe maybe hear how many. Hi, this is ana montes is friend from madrid from their junior year. Shes fascinating. Shes quoted in the book on ana, commented on the article and in letters and was not a big fan her her view this is none of this is about me im not interesting focus on why did this and what is wrong u. S. Policy. I feel like theres a place for that. But obviously thats a very small part of this story. Did you try to interview ana montes for the book. I didnt because she was shes under such harsh. She was not allowed to even was part of the judges sentence. Right . Shes not allowed to. Even now shes on probation and it would be extremely difficult to interview her. Do you know where she is right now . Yeah, she shes in puerto rico now. Yeah. All right. Other questions for jim popkin. Please step right up to the. So in the book, you make a statement about theres information and documents and things that had not previously been released or. Information that hadnt previously come to light. So is i guess, my question is two parts is everything in the book this point now declassified and if not did you at any point have any reservation about potentially releasing information that could excuse me that could i mean even if there are older programs possibly compromised National Security like you said you made a statement earlier about, you talked to people so many times over the years that people kind of got more comfortable or loosened up a little bit, but thats not declassified. Correct. There is information and its a great question. Theres information that report on that is classified may have a cia ten page report on the case that, quote, saw extensively. I you know, this is a journalism. Is is the value, the material worth the risk . I dont feel like theres anything that i report on that would jeopardize troops or National Security in any way. But there may be there may be folks at dia and other agencies that disagree with that and in fact, the misty system had been the subject of some debate. And it was ultimately well before your book came out, correct. And its you know, its been reported as well the connection to on monitors had not been reported. Yeah. Thats thats the fact of the existence of, the stealth system, but not the idea. She had perhaps been the first person to give it up. Correct. Other questions for jim popkin . Yes, sir so as we listen to this and wait for the movie, is there kind of a. Yeah. Do you need a sexual component or, romance component to kind of bring this to the big screen and and it in your the rendition of this is kind of sterile from the standpoint it seems she only did this job you know did her day night job no personal life nothing going on no interaction with other people its like how did that did you get more insights into how that thats a sort of two part question. Yes. So on a you know, on a had romances several that i that i talk about in when when she was in in college she had a number of of guys over the years there were someone at that the end right when she was arrested who she really fell in love with who she really wanted to marry at a certain point at the end we even talked about the stress of all this, but it was extremely for her and had a lot of psychological issues. She wanted to get out of the spying game and what was difficult for her to maintain this double existence, you mean . And its lonely, this kind. Spying is lonely. When she saw handlers, she could share and she could talk to them about her frustration. But who else could she go to . Certainly not her family. And so it was a very, very lonely existence. Her and she she did suffer with a lot of stress towards the and as i said, she wanted to get out of the game and and she couldnt to craigs other question. She also at one point just out of frustration, went to the cubans and told them that this is difficult its to meet hard to meet anyone and and they they her to someone, shall we say, or in havana. It was in the one of the islands, actually. And it didnt work out. She found him to be too hairy, which i mean, frankly, who among us . He. Clearly ana was opposed to u. S. Policy in cuba deeply. And thats not a novel thing in this city or in this country. Right. And you mentioned that they were for ideological reasons. She did. What was the ideology. I mean, theres maybe thats a distinction without a difference. But i think there is a difference there. But what was the ideology that youre. Yeah. Have in mind . Well first of all, again, think of the reagan era and what reagan was was doing his policy in, nicaragua and el salvador. She she thought that was wrong. She in general, she believes that the has just been a bully wherever it it it could be. And many reasonable people agree with her. She feels like this day that she had really almost the the need to do what she did that she was in a special position once she was at dia and she felt like she had a moral obligation to help the cuban. Thats thats as far as i can take i mean shes shes written about this and she i will give her this. I mean, she she didnt run from this and even at her sentence, which she didnt know what the outcome would be in front of judge urbina here in washington, she made these statements in supporting her, her position, some other questions, but briefly about the sentence she was a 25 year sentence. She got out early because of good behavior. But how does that sentence compare to other spy cases . Did she get off easy . Well, i dont i wouldnt say easy because prison she was in was was really miserable. So she did 21 hard years. But if you look other spies Robert Hanssen, rick ames. And theres also another spy who was at sites he was a professor and also a cuban spy. Last name, myers they all got life sentences. Theyre serving time at supermax in colorado. Ana is out now. Shes 65 years old. She can she can have a life, rebuild her life. These other other spies didnt get that opportunity. You know, i was just wondering, are the intelligence community, both contractors and employees generally have to take a Lie Detector Test every year. Every other year. How did she beat that or was that discussed at all . Thank you. First of all, when she came to dia in 1985, at that time dia and many other agencies did not require polygraph. So she did not have a polygraph. She was allowed it didnt require them for new employees. For new employees, correct. She had one polygraph. I believe it was in 1994. She passed. She went one of the first things that she did in havana a during her first visit there. She demanded that they teach her how to defeat a polygraph and. And it worked. And, you know, theres a lot of criticism of polygraphs in general. And so maybe she had ten polygraph. She would have passed everyone. But, you know, one of the interesting things is oftentimes one of the indicators that somebody is spying is suddenly theres a jaguar in driveway. She had none of those indicators that none of those giving off bad signs. Thank you. You mentioned that she had a sort of special interest in the misty program, that she learned about its existence separately from her handlers or from sounds like separately from the cubans. So she took it upon herself to become knowledgeable about this. And it sounds like this program was not particularly focused on cuba, but other correct other countries. What what fraction of the work that she for cuba was kind of related to cuban u. S. Relations or. And what fraction was infamous in that they felt they could make use of by selling to other countries so forth. You have a should sort of measure of that. I dont know of a measure, but she was towards the the beginning, the end of her career. She was a cuba expert and a cuba analyst. So obviously, she had access to loads of information about cuba. But in that position and just because she was so senior and by the way, just just right before she was arrested she had been assigned it was a it was a very big deal. And almost a promotion to the cia. She was going to be stationed at the cia because of her seniority. She a gs 14. She had access to all kinds information that didnt only involve cuba. And misty is a good example. She was read that and it was such a a Restricted Program that very few people knew about it and their accurate records kept about who does get read into. So it was after fact it was it was fairly easy to to ascertain that she knew that and that is a good example because that program was helpful way beyond cuba. And so her essentially blowing it had had a larger ripple effect. Right. I see. The former spokesman for the fbi, mike korten here tonight. I said harlow was the best spokesman for cia of. Mike was the best for the fbi. Retired now, but as he knows so well, often times the timing of an arrest is based on you know, all sorts of different factors you might want let the person go on and do for a while or feed them bad information, see who else is involved. Is there anything interesting about the timing of her arrest . The the dia at starting in late 2000 knew that ana, a suspected spy, that there was a lot of information on her. They kept her in place. And the dia director at the time, thomas wilson, i interviewed him for the book and he was aware of the risk he kept of spy at dia continuing to hoover up classified information. But in his view, it was worth it for the risk and to allow the fbi continue its investigation. They were hoping that they would find on a meeting with a handler passing a disk that would be obviously a slam dunk. It never happened. What to ahead to two 911 911 happens and two Amazing Things i mean first of all the pentagon is hit that day and it it hit an area where it was a dia office. So admiral wilson was in the fbi, heard the planes go by. And now, unfortunately, there dia employees who are victims, hes dealing with that. And the dia. Keep in mind, what is their job after 911 . There are nations planners. Theyre responsible for coming up with the plan, analyzing the military, the taliban etc. So this is an extremely busy person. He realized i now its post911 and. I have a cuban spy working on my staff papers came across his desk saying that she was about to gain access to our bombing targets in afghanistan. And that was by folks at dia who had no idea that she was under. When admiral wilson saw that, he said, this has been fun and thats were done now. And he the fbi and said she must be arrested by friday, september 21st, 2001. And that is the day she was. Oh, yes. Next question for jim popkin. Nobody behind me. All right. Go ahead. You have another one . Yeah, i was just. Is there anything you can tell us in more detail about the relevant to cuba that she was what kinds of things were were they interested in for 17 years . Sure you know, a lot it was very for most folks very in the weeds. But she her job shes basically a writer in sense. So every day she is writing cubas military capable cities. I mean, literally to, you know, how many tanks they have and, where locations are and training. So she had access to that and cuba wanted to know that they also cuba wanted to know what would happen if the u. S. Ever bombed tried to attack. Cuba, where would it take place . And we do this. You these all the time and. She provided that if fidel castro was for very good reason was paranoid about what would happen with the us military. So he he, he and his administration really valued what she was providing. Did she ever meet castro . She didnt. Never met castro. This is according to what she said after, the fact. But she she did meet senior officials in the italian world there and she got a medal. She was honored by the cubans. This is a medal that they present. Take a look at it. Okay. Now, taking it back because she couldnt take it home. It didnt go in her luggage. Did there ever come time when the cuban government wanted to exchange . You know, we just had all this attention, prisoner exchanges with the russians. Was there ever a time when the cubans tried to get her back to cuba in exchange for somebody else during the obama administration, president obamas staff considered this for a while and there was talk about possibly exchanging her, allowing her out early in in exchange for americans who are in cuba and obviously impossible for the us to access. It never. The cubans after, right after she was arrested they put out a statement in support of ana, which was very unusual. They generally spy services dont say anything and they essentially acknowledged that ana had helped the cubans over the years. It was little hat tip to her after her conviction. But after that point, they havent they really havent said much. There quite its fascinating on facebook, a big Affinity Group of them in support of ana montes both in cuba and even more so in puerto. Yes, maam. So im sure that ana told the that her sister was not involved in any way in this, but it seems like that be hard for them to believe, given that she was the fbi trying to find cuban and did that cause any real problems, her sister. And how did she survive that . That is such a wonderful question. So let me just talk briefly about lucy lucy. On september 21st is tapped on the shoulder. Shes in miami and asked to come to her supervisors office. Shes walk there and shes thinking if walking this must be about 911. Because the fbi in miami right mike was very with with the 911 investigation shes just assumed thats what it was. They sit her down and a couple officials say. We have some news for you. Your sister was just arrested in washington. Your sister a cuban spy. Lucy was absolutely shocked. She didnt really it at first, but one of the first emotions that she felt was relief relief, because now she understood stood why her sister had become so distant and didnt share anything her. So, you know, that was just an incredible moment for her. And it was repeated in atlanta. Her brother, tito, who was an special agent, you know, with a badge and a gun and wife joan, who was also fbi special agent. They had the same conversations. They unlike lucy to this day, is very, very angry, her sister. But because was joan and tito were agents. They were it was hard for them to recover from this and to ever offer any of acceptance whatsoever to. But back to the grab them on and the question though did it cause any trouble . Were there people in the bureau who said, come on, you must known this . Yeah. So lucy was never polygraphed, but she questioned thoroughly by the fbi. I had the chance to talk to her former boss in miami. He actually did want to polygraph her. But other within the bureau resisted. But keep in mind, they had keeping the fbi been keeping a close eye on on a for a very long time and you know listening in on her calls. They knew an enormous about ana montes and were confident that lucy the family had nothing to do with this. So you said you worked on this book. How long. 15 years. Well, research. 15 years. Okay. So how many people you talk to . How many people did you interview. Well, over 100. And what of cooperation did you get from dia from the bureau, from other agencies . The fbi and the the fbi investigators were tremendously helpful in this. The dia. Well, and you know, the dia even helped me more recently, even knowing and, you know, some of the that that parts of this clearly represented an intelligence failure for them. And they were extremely cooperative. Well, does that surprise you . They were happy to help tell about their failures. Not really. And again, i think its because lot of time has passed and theyre there. Theyre willing to be a little more open about this. And a lesson. Yes, exactly. Last question. So you have as a book writer question, you know, plenty of people want to write books, think theyre going to write books. You been a writer for a long time. How is this different . Writing this book . Writing book compared to all the other writing that youve done your entire career . How was what surprised you about maybe how easy it was or how difficult or was or how long it took . Is this your first book . This is my first book. Yeah. Ive only ever written long articles. And, you know, this this was quite a challenge. Its i was talking to brad earlier. Brads written a lot of books. It its hard to it. Its so long. You want to make sure that the flow is there so you have to keep going back and reading the beginning which is just very time consuming. But i you know, this is been a passion and an interest of mine since john told me about it all the way back in 2000. One. And i guess that is know the message. If youre going to if youre going to time on something or write a book make sure you really enjoy the topic. Well, i see a couple of people that i would just like to call out here before jim came to nbc and we were hitched up together. He worked at the nbc affiliate w rc channel four, and i see a lot of folks channel four here tonight. So a shout out to them and i see if you if youve listened carefully jims speech, you know that hes not from around. A slight new jersey accent and i see theres a considerable new jersey contingent as well tonight a cheering section. So how about a hand for. You. On about books we