Hanson along with all prior episodes of indepth on our website tv. Org. Just click on the in depth tab near the top of the page. I am so please introduce todays speaker. James carroll is a busy man. Hes been a priest, playwright, a professor with honorary degrees from several universities. And sometimes between all but hes at time to write 12 novels and it works of nonfiction including the cloister and constantine sword. His oped ran from 19922015 in the boston globe, and his other writings have appeared in the new yorker, the atlantic and among others. He is the recipient of the National Book award, the p e and award and the Scripps Howard award. He is jointed night in conversation by mike rezendes. Mike is a Senior Investigative reporter with the global Investigation Team at the associated press. Previously he worked for the Boston Globe Spotlight Team where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for revealing the coverup of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. You might see him played on the Silver Screen and spotlight. Mike has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist twice. Rc recently he posted article exposing the church for taking ppe a during covid while theyre sitting on billions. Tonight they are discussing the truth at the heart of the lie. In the striking book james takes a thorough look at himself, his faith and the Catholic Church itself. He argues that a male supremacist clericalism as mostf of the root cause and the ongoing enabler of the sexual abuse crisis. This book is both an exposure of the problem and the call for the muchneeded reform. Ill leave you with this quote from Stephen Greenblatt was one of my favorite writers. This moving and revelatory booke written from a deep personal experience takes us to the heart of one of the great institutional existential crises of our time. And on that note the phrase i will turn things over to our speakers, jim, mike, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Thanks very much. Pleasure to be a here. Thank you, audrey and the Harvard Book Store folks, jeff, before jeff i just told mike i think ive introduced almost every one of my books at the harvard book story. My book isnt published until im at the Harvard Book Store, but tonight mike i have to say, its more than a normal pleasure and honor to be with you. The work i recount in this book, it took its most important impetus from the work you did and do, and im so grateful for the chance to salute you permanently and thank you for the grave and thoughtful work you have done all these years. Without you, and your colleagues, but in a very particular way you, this deeply troubling scandal that is at the heart of the catholic problem today and therefore my own personal problem, without you it would still be mostly hidden. So, im thrilled to have this chance to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much. Well, so very nice of you to say, and i think i have to follow that up by saying that through all my years of questioning and doubting my own catholicism, i did grow up a practicing catholic and much of my family are still devout catholics. You were writing your column in the blonde globe and when i tried to explain how i felt about the Catholic Church i often use short hand and say im a James Carroll catholic, meaning i try hard to believe and sometimes fail. So, i appreciate your remarks very much, and as someone who has spent much of the last 20 years investigating the Catholic Church and covering the clergy sex abuse crisis of crisis i was so impressed with your book overall, moved by your book, and improved it was motivate by the clergy sexual abuse crisis in the church. Theres a point where you say that well, you describe your book as a memoir of faith, and it is that. But also it strikes me as a chronicle of a crisis of faith, and at one point you describe yourself as a shattered believer, forced to confront the corruption at the heart of my faith. Thats really incredibly Strong Language and id just be interested in whether you could talk to us about how you came to feel so impassioned and angry about this issue. Well, you wont be surprised, mike, when i say that i have been living with this particular problem as a catholic for many, many years. Going back even before the great work of the spotlight time. I began as a columnist in the early 1990s with the boston globe and one of my first column was the james porter case, father james porter, priest in i believe fall river. Thats correct. Who was a predator, and the boston globes reporting on the porter case was the beginning of the globes challenge to the church, although it didnt come to its climax until the work of the spotlight team. But i have been aware of this perversion in the priesthood for decades now. I was a Catholic Priest myself, as you know, from 1969 to 1974, and as i recount in this book, i wasnt aware of it then. I was what i would call complicit denial of this problem, and my colleagues, someone you got to know very well or got to know about him very well, was paul shandly, catholic chaplain at boston state college, as umass boston was called in those days. A catholic chaplain at boston university, and even though i had certain issues with paul shandly, i was one of many people who thought of him as an upstanding priest doing really good work. Was blind to the blatant predator behavior that he was guilty of, and for which he spent a good number of years in prison as a result of the work that boston globe did. Right. And you. So ive been aware of this problem, but it didnt take me back from my place at the altar, going to communion, going mass every week, practicing my faith, finding a way to live with what i knew about the corruptions of some priests and almost all bishops. The story for me always has been a minority of priests abuse children, almost all of the bishops protected the predators instead of the victims, and to me thats always been the main revelation, the deep dysfunction here, but what im trying to say is that business as usual became impossible for me with in these years of appropriate francis pontiff cat and that seems an out thing to say. He arrived as a breath of fresh air for catholics like me. Thought of him and think of him as someone in the john xxiii mold. The pope of the Second Vatican Council this he reforming pope who tried to help the Catholic Church wreck cop with what had been laid bear during the holocaust. I thought francis role was to help the church reckon what was laid bare in the priestly sex abuse crisis, and all of the great work francis has done and all he represents, concern for migrants, defense of democracy against populism, concern for the climate, savage critic of inequality and rein walkway capitalism, all of that precious work he has done, the most important single thing the had to do as pope for the chump, but for the world, was finally reckon with what had been laid bare by the priestly sex abuse candle and has failed to do it. Thats my perception. Failed to do it. What realize even francis was in the grip of the clericalism, this culture of priestly exception at the root of the dysfunction of sex abuse in the church and even francis could not reckon with it, something is a say in the book snapped in me. The corruption is not news. But the depth of the crux that corruption that prevented even the best of the Catholic Church whats that francis in a way represents to me that prevents even the best to deal with the corruption, meant to me that this business as usual as a catholic was over. I havent, quote, leveled the church, but ive left the church but im stepped back from my practice of the faith. I dont go to mass now. Im in exile from normal practice of the faith and thats my own way of refusing to go on with business as usual and i lay out an explanation and a challenge in this book to invite other people, whether theyre catholics, former catholics, people who had nothing to do with the church to take an attitude and position about this problem, because it goes even more deeply into the life of the world than this particular religion. Thats a bit of a longwinded way of answering your question about how this corruption has landed on me, but thats it. Sure. You mentioned a moment when you snapped, and i think thats a very compelling pat of the book and a particular anecdote, something that francis said that was the kind of straw that breck the camels back for you. Do you want to recount that . The season of the snap was the summer of 2018, when pope francis went to ireland on socalled papal visit or pilgrimage, and a lot of us thought, well, this will be the occasion finally for francis to unveil a serious mantling of the structure of clerk calism which has led to criminal behavior on the part of the church. Why . Because ireland was ground zero of the priest abuse crisis. When you and your colleagues at the globe laid bare the sure rid line in boston, people in rome and elsewhere said thats just boston because of the boston the catholic boston the boston catholics have a special problem. Boom. What you guys set in motion led quickly to the revelations it wasnt a boston problem, it was an american problem. The europeans immediately said thats an american problem. Its american catholics have the problem. No boom. Germany, france, astoria, dash astoria, poland, netherlands, we have yet to see the reckoning and over these years were looking at a problem that exists everywhere that our Catholic Priests, nowhere more grievously than in ireland, and in ireland, something approaching 20,000 victims of priests in a small country. Ive said before, i say in the book, its reasonable to think that everyone in ireland is somehow related to a victim of a priest which accounts for the collapse of the Catholic Church in ireland. Right. Whats that pop francis was oning into and why some of us thought here is when hell gibb to reckon with it, and he didnt. That was always the season of revelations in philadelphia, a grand jury laid bare accusations against hundreds of priests involving more than a thousand children, also when 15 u. S. Attorneys general opened up investigations against Catholic Diocese around the United States, soon thereafter, cardinal mckerrick was found guilty of abuse by a vatican tribunal. One of the most powerful figures in the Catholic Church. You remember remember it. All of this came crashing down, tsunami of revelation, around the time of pope francis pilgrimage and when he was the thing you are referring to and i recount in the book, the snap, one of this scandalous aspects of the irish story was the so cathedral mag do len a revolution that broke the heart of the ihis people that showed not just priests but nuns were capable of great crueltity. The ryan report that came out after the spotlight team did did its work in boston but was underway for some years before that, and the ryan report showed that hundreds of Catholic Churchrun institutions were treating children as slaves, and in many case sex slaves. Pope francis wassing a but the mag magdalene laundry, homes for unwed marry run by sisters and women and church were subject to grotesque terms of abuse and it was exposes then, hundreds many hundreds of corpses 0 babies were uncovered in the grounds of some of these convents, some of them thrown into sewage pits. A scandal that kind of arrived as a crescendo in ireland. There were movies made about it. Documentary films. There was a film starting judy dench called filimena. A huge scandal, pope francis was asked about it by a reporter on his airplane going back to rome, and his answer was what made me snap. He said, i do not know about these they called them his phrase was, the laundromat ladies. Yes. Something like use the word laundromat. I do not know about these things. I do not know about them. He denied knowing about them. And i thought at the time, the pope must be lying because it was so wellknown, how could he not. And i thought thats unfair of me, which it is. But even if he was telling the truth and didnt know them, that said something almost as bad. How could the pope of the Catholic Church not know about this scandal and thats when i thought, snap, pope francis ii is in the grip of this malicious disdisfunctional, criminal culture, and when a figure of his generosity and goodness, which is so clear and palpable, would his depth of goodness is at the mercy of this, i thought this clericalism, this priests apart, priests above, priests unaccountable, priest protected, this clericalism is demonic and i can no longer associate myself with it. And i havent been to mass as a catholic since then. Well, for you thats saying a great deal that was a lifelong practice for you and so that is a reflection of the impact this has had on you. You go at some length persuasively to talk how it is that pope francis has this incredible blind spot when it comes to clergy sex abuse and you finger clericalism as the dark villain in the story. I wonder if you could just define clericalism a little more for people and talk about how it came to be that clericalism gave rise to this crisis. Well, we think of the priests in the Catholic Church as having going all the way back to jesus and in fact the Catholic Church says that the 12 apostles were the first priests and because they were all men, women cant be priests. So, theres this notion that the priesthood was there at the beginning. Its not true. The priesthood as know it evolved over the centuries, beginning in roman empire when the Catholic Church and the roman empire became the same thing, when the officials of the church took on the characteristics of roman officials so priests became officials of the church. And then in the middle ages when the pyramids structure of catholic power was created imitating the monarch constituent, with the pope at the top, like a king, the the bishops, like royalty, along the side of the pyramid and at the bottom, the priests. All of them officials in this power structure. Clericalism is the power structure. The reason the bishops looked the other way when predator priests were exposed wasnt because they were indifferent to the crimes of these priests, no, it wasnt. It wasnt that they didnt care about the children. It was that the most important thing for them was protecting this pyramid of power on which their own status depended and the way to do that was to protect everybody in it. So even even a predator priest joined on that pyramid of power had to be protected. So he was not held accountable. He was moved to someplace where he wasnt known. He was able to go on abusing people and so on. Thats the first thing i would say about clericalism. Of course, it depends on three pillars. Number one, its all male. This is a male supremacist structure. Right. The denigration of women is essential to it. Right. Which is why no women can be priests, the nonsense about the 12 apostles, no women in the 12 apostles, therefore no women can be priests, thats crazy. In the book you call that as a blatant lie, unquote. It is a blatant lie, the only apostles that the priests knew were the jewish apostles at the temple thats the only way that this meaning in the time of jesus. No women can be priests. Priests must be cellibait and the condemnation of birth control, women not allowed to be sexually autonomous persons. So, all male priest hood, theres a third leg to this priesthood, which is a damning god, a god who is so offended by the sin of adam and eve, especially eve, put unto woman, so offended by adam and eve,the fall, that god requires human beings to suffer to make up for that sin. The economy is suffering as willed by god. Good damns you if you dont make up for the sin that youve committed and youve inherited from adam and eve. This structure of doom is a structure from which we lay people are protected by, what, the ministries of the priests. You go to confession. Confession saves us from the god of doom. When i grew up as a kid, we had a card we used to carry in our wallet, we catholics that said in case of an accident, please call the priest. What was that about . I needed to have a priest forgive my sins on my moment of death, otherwise i was going to go to hell. I mean, excuse me, what kind of god is this . What kind of sadist monster is this . Im supposed to want to spend all eternity in heaven with such a figure . One of the sad things about pope francis is, hes thoroughly repudiated the leftover legacy of the god of doom, which the Catholic Church began to come out from under during the Second Vatican Council. Pope francis published a wonderful book about the mercy of god. Mercy is pope francis calling card, god is merciful not damning. But even last week or 10 days ago, the vatican issued a rejection of gay marriage saying that god does not bless sin. God does not bless these relationships. Thats the old damning, dooming god from whom pope francis had declared independence in the beginning of the papacy when he said about gay people, who am i to judge, its a long way from who am i to judge to what we got last week about god doesnt bless sin. So clericalism is this entire structure of power, antisex, antiwoman, antilay people and its intention is to protect the pyre of the hierarchy. Its a violation of human rights. Its a violation of justice, but more to the point for us catholics, its a violation of the gospel. It portrays everything that jesus christ stood for, clericalism is the problem, mike. Im not telling you anything, but the Catholic Church has yet to deal with it. I wondered if you could stay on just one of those three for a second, celibacy. I think a lot of people outside the Catholic Church and within the Catholic Church dont understand why its a requirement. As you point out in your book, it was not a requirement until the first modern council of 1123. If the church went so long without the celibacy requirement, how is it that pope francis and his predecessors have refused to even discuss the matter . Thats another great question. The first thousand years of the Catholic Church, most priests and even many bishops were married people with wives and children. It was when the Catholic Church embraced the culture of the monarchy of the middle ages, really. You remember that, i mean, we have fantasies about the crusades and king richard the lionheart, and the great figures of royalty that begin to come into european culture at that point. The papacy, reimagined itself around the structure of royalty and it was beginning then that this power system was embraced by the church. And one of the ways that the church had to embrace that power system was by controlling its property, which meant that the people administering the property, priests, shouldnt have heirs so that the church itself wouldnt have to compete with the heirs of clergy for ownership of property, vast swaths of land especially in europe, but also, that the inner lives of priests, subject to this power structure, needed to be controlled. And the control of sexuality, the control of Sexual Identity is a profound way of controlling a person. Celibacy is a function of church power over clergy. Its also rooted in a deeply neurotic rejection of human sexuality. That goes back to mistaken readings of the story of adam and eve, which understood the fall as a sexual sin. Theres no reason in the scripture to see it that way. We dont want to go too far in the weeds here, but this is the idea that begins with power of st. Augusta and it comes into its own with the celibate priest and the neurotic catholic, sexual sin. Sexual license, sexual autonomy, therefore, no birth control, abortion an absolute moral prohibition, no room for complexity. No identity as a gay person, although clearly in the catholic tradition, many, many, many clergy have been gay. Sure. So theres a and the deep contradiction in that that gay clergy themselves has in the deep neurosis of the system. Im talking clericalism. Its a simple idea and once you open your mind to it, you realize how dark and really destructive it is. And Catholic Priests today are at the mercy of it and many of them, most of them live heroic lives despite the strictures of the clerical culture. But alas, many of them, most of them, have been forced by that culture into a kind of complicity with those who are prone to abuse others out of that culture. So how is it that so many, not just bishops, but priests were silent or looked the other way when their brother priests were raping children. To me, that complicity is a huge part of a phenomenon of clergy in the Catholic Church and its exhibit a, why its so difficult to root out. That complicity that you point out is key. You know, i have my critics and my reporting and im sure you have yours in your writing and you know, my critics often say to me, why are you so taken with sex abuse in the Catholic Church . We have sex abuse in the boy scouts, we have sex abuse in the public schools, we have sex abuse even on the u. S. Gymnastics team and you point all of that out in your book and yet you say, but clergy sex abuse, child sex abuse in the Catholic Church stands apart. I wonder why is it more important to focus on sex abuse in the Catholic Church than others. The stories that you and your colleagues laid bare show again and again and again how priests abusing children invoked the name of god. They invoked the name of god. This is what god wants us to do. You are special to god because of this. They even exploited the sackment of penance, confession, approaching people in confession. Cardinal law famously, and you reported this, silenced an accuser by ordering him under the seal of confession to tell no one of his accusation. You remember that . I do. Ill never forget it. The priest sex abuser, unlike the boy scout sex abusers say, or even the family sex abuser, tragically the family is a locust of sex abuse, too. But unlike others, theres a transcendent element to what the priest is doing which makes the victim all the more vulnerable, especially when the culture of silence in the name of god is imposed on the victim, the trauma, your reporting shows it, the trauma that victims of priests carry away from this experience is itself transcendent. Its of a special order, not to mention the way in which this violation of the claims made for what the priest hood is, exceptionally virtues, exceptionally generous, selfless, celibacy is a symbol of the priest giving himself only to the community, not to himself first, poverty, chastity, the claims made for the priest, this crime in this context is of a different order. Im not telling you anything. Youve seen it, but thats the answer and you see it in the rage and the wounds of the victims. The victims must be, always must be front and center for us as the standard against which we measure the meaning of this crime. And when you listen to the testimony of victims and youve made it powerful, then you do understand that something uniquely malevolent is at work here and that goes and that goes to the bishops then who treat this as not that big a deal and who continued to think rhetorical expressions of sorrow are enough, instead of seriously dismantling what led to it and what keeps it going. Yes, i think the situation with the bishops is particularly noteworthy, very, very few have been disciplined for covering up clergy sex abuse. You know, theres been a recent provision to deal with bishops who cover up clergy sex abuse. You mention it in your book. Its the folks in cyclical process, you are the light of the world and that seemed to me to be really kind of a toothless attempt to discipline bishops or hold bishops accountable who cover up clergy sex abuse. I wonder if you could talk about that because that was really heavily promoted by the vatican as pope francis way of dealing with this crisis once and for all. I began by the summer of 2018, the pressure built on pope francis to address this crisis which he hadnt really done. He announced in response to the pushback he was getting that he would begin to address it by summoning a meeting of bishops in rome. I believe he announced that in september or october for the following february. Right. Some of us, were immediately suspicious. You know, i said its like asking the mafia chieftain to be on the crim commission. Yes, you did. And sure enough, the bishops met in rome. Remember that the bishops are complicit in this problem. The very people who have been covering it up for years, two decades now, since the globe, two decades just since the globe, since you guys. Thats right. But going back decades before that at the first revelations, these bishops are complicit and they issued they had their meeting. They reported to the pope. That was in february, and then a couple much month later i think it was in may, the document youre referring to, you are the light of the world, was published and what was the main solution to the problem when priests or bishops are accused of a crime against a child, the meeting was called on the protection of children. Right. And theyre accused, theyre obliged to report it. Report it to whom . There we go. Report it to other bishops. Right. Theres no requirement in you are the light of the world to report these crimes to Civil Authority, even though in many countries, theyre obliged to. So, if priests or bishops obey the law in the United States, they wont report the crime to Civil Authority as theyre obliged to, but theres no requirement in the church to do that. Theres no requirement in transparency in you are the light of the world. There is no way that that the accusation is transparent or adjudication is trance parent. Theres no requirement for participation of lay people in this adjudication of accusations. And theres no mandated penalty. Listen, if a woman attempts to say mass, shes by virtue of that attempt excommunicated from the church. Right. Theres no equivalent penalty for an abusing priest, even today. Theres no mandated removal from holy orders. So what you have in that document from the spring of 2019, you are the light of the world, which is touted, as you say, as the churchs finally reckoning with this problem, its a clericalist protection of clericalism. It keeps it all inhouse. The structure of bishops protecting bishops. Priests protecting priests is still in place. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, i thought that was particularly dispiriting when that finally came out. As you said, many of us were suspicious from the beginning and still, it seemed to present no real substantive progress on the issue. And by the way, it seems like the last word. Have you noticed . The subject has disappeared from discourse in the church as far as im aware. Exactly. That was supposed to be the last word, maybe it will be until the next crisis explodes, which is inevitable. Who knows where it will be, its inevitable, because the church hasnt found a way to deal with it. I think it will be one crisis after another, one crisis after another and theyll start developing in other parts of the world and already in latin america, many victims are coming forward and i personally was impressed with the huge blind spot pope francis has on this issue when he referred to the victims of chaldeana and chile as liars. And i thought it was a moment of candor as opposed to a moment of pique. I thought he was expressing his true feelings. Incidents after incidents like the one with magdalene in ireland where hes either afraid of the issue, he doesnt understand the issue, im not sure what it is, but i have to agree with your assessment that he has failed to deal with it in a substantive and effective way. I think on that chile liars moment, he did repent of that. He did repent of that, he did, in a major way. But nevertheless i thought it was a measure of his feeling, his emotion. In his goodness, hes a man of his own lifelong experience. Hes been living inside that clerical culture and even though he has some capacity to criticize it, he does actually criticize clericalism, but its never. But its never clear what he means by it. And hes often criticized it. Yeah, he does. So, theres a kind of tragic quality of being cautious, caught by his own life experience, caught by the limits of the structure of the vatican, a lot of reactionary catholics who are pushing back against him. Right. They clearly are having an effect, which is why theres such a difference between the statement twoweeks ago on gay people and gay marriage from earlier in his pontificate. Sure. But the final message of it, of course, is the power of this pyramidal structure. Its not going to go easily, but i also dont believe that its going to be able to stand up. The only institution in the world that will stand up against the rising wave of feminist rejection of such male abuse and women in the Catholic Church are going to be are already the point persons for the real demand for change and thats happening. Yes, that brings me to something i want today wanted to talk about before we get too late in the evening, you have a prescription in your book how the church might change, or how people might change the church and the message that comes with the faith of individuals, particularly in jesus christ, who is the truth at the heart of the lie that you mentionedment so i did want to give you a chance to speak about how things might turn in a positive direction. Well, people tuning in tonight might be surprised by the strong critique that were level against the power structure of the church to know in the end ive chosen not to leave the Catholic Church. Im an internal exile is how i think of myself. Im a margin of the church, but speaking back to the center of it and calling for change and the reason is simple, im i believe that the church exists to keep the memory of jesus christ alive, to make his presence felt, that jesus christ is real to me. I owe my connection to jesus christ to the church and im desperate to protect that connection. I also am deeply, deeply connected to the vast populations of catholics, more than a billion people all over the planet and they are people who are doing the work of the church, of the lord. What we used to call the corporal works of mercy, the spiritual works of mercy. Doctors and nurses and medical people, clinics, schools, tens of thousands of education centers. Women leading these efforts in many, if not most places. All People Associated with the Catholic Church and its an institution thats not going to go away. I associate with those people. They are the church. And i also associate with the impulse that ive seen in my own life story which began with the Second Vatican Council in the early 1960s, when the church began to reckon with its failure during the holocaust and what did the council do as the first order of business, it overturned the roots of antisemitism in catholic and christian life, repudiated the christ killer charge against the jews and repudiated the idea that god has turned away from the jewish people. Those are the singlemost important theological changes in the history of christianity and theyre much more theyre much larger than anything having to do with sex or gender. So, change is possible. Ive seen it in my own life and in my own life in the church. Im desperate for that kind of change. I think thats a great note to just turn to questions right now. Change is possible. I think thats very important to keep in mind. Ive seen it over and over and over again. So this is a question that i think you might be especially interested in. Its the individual says im a pastor at a city parish here in boston and have been serving as a priest for 24 years. At this critical moment in Church History what advice and counsel would you give to us who are working against the tide of clericalism and the many wrongs that you point out in your latest book . I welcome that observation and question and ill answer it quite forthrightly. First of all, id like to say i salute you for your struggle, father, and im grateful to you for it and i had, i think i understand whats implied in your comment and question. And i think of all the many, many, many priests ive known and know who are in a similar situation, heroic people in my view. But i will also say that priests have huge power at this moment in the life of the church. And priests, as a group, are not exercising it. Priests know of the corruptions and clericalism, as well or better than anybody, and if priests, as a group, whether in a dioces, a nation, a region, globally, can somehow raise their voice demanding children. Admit women to the priest hood. Change the rule on celibacy. Live away from these negative neurotic emphasis on sexual morality. If priests did that, the power of their voice would break the log jam and i think back to the greatest example of this i know of took place here in boston, perhaps, father, you knew some of these folks or know them since you are still here, but cardinal law was riding high when the boston globe spotlight came, did its work. And cardinal law had the full backing, even as the scandal was laid bare, of the powers in rome. It was only when the priests of the archdiocese of boston addressed the public letter, public letter to cardinal law, your immense, we, the undersigned priests of the archdiocese, im paraphrasing, have lost confidence in you and were calling on you to resign. And it was a letter signed by, i believe, 51 senior priests, mostly, pastors. Right. And some of them friends of mine. And cardinal law resigned immediately. The support he still had in rome, which would have kept him in office, was indicated by the fact that he went to rome immediately and was given a prestigious position in rome which he had until he died. Right. If it werent for the priests of the archdiocese in boston, the scandal in boston would have festered on in more destructive ways and who knows what would have happened. The great prophetic witness of those priests made a difference. I think that versions of that could happen today. I think that priests in boston could make a vciferous challenge to the inhuman, michael supremacist unjust exclusion of women in the priest hood and they could make a clear and authentic challenge to the antifemale, sexist, corrupt tradition of required priestley celibacy. Just for starters. Yes, you know, it seems to me at the end of your book you really are calling for a spirit of activism within the church. Resistance is the word we used to use in the Antiwar Movement back in the day at bu. Sure. Like we were talking earlier having bu in common. Resistance is needed. Anticlericalism from within is what i call it. Anticlericalism from within and we are the conscientious objectors, we need to resist it and fight it and thats why ive written this book. We all have ways to do this those of us and many catholics are doing it just by walking away, which is also a powerful statement. You know, the second largest religious denomination in america, religious denomination defined broadly, is former catholics. And that in itself is a powerful witness. So, i think that we all this belongs to the people and the people have to take charge of this. Here is a question that goes to your point. The person asked, do you remember the group voices of the faithful, would such a group help correct these problems . Perhaps we could reintroduce the group . Your thoughts. And one of the most immediate and powerful responses to the globe spotlight work, i was privileged to address one of the first voices of the faithful meetings that was held at the hines auditorium several thousand people demanding church, the slogan of witch of the faithful. Keep the faith, change the church. Right. Thats the perfect slogan for this movement. The faithful still goes on, it hasnt been as powerful as it was in the beginning because for many reasons, largely, i think, a lot of people have walked away, but also because business as usual has become kind of a note of the life of the children. Voice of the faithful and versions of it are crucial Going Forward and there are many quieter movements of resistance within the catholic tradition right now. There are great news led by women. Women leading religious services, including in the eucharistic tradition. Lay people having meetings. Theres a wonderful, powerful, International Movement of catholic lay people demanding change. So, these things are happening and its actually not hard to find instances of it all around us. You know, there are youve touched on this issue, but i want to say there are several questions here asking you to address the subject of womens ordnation. And if so, if you do support this, then how do you express your support and how should one express support for womens ordination . Womens ordination, and when we say that were not talking about bringing women into a pyramid. Were talking about overthrowing the pyramid. The opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy, its democracy. Were talking power to the people and that begins in the catholics instance power to women. The movement to bring women full into the priesthood is itself a decisive element of change that would begin to change the entire culture, similarly, bringing married people into the priesthood would begin to change the entire culture. Its not as farfetched as it seems. Let me quickly say, not so long ago the pope summoned all of the bishops from the amazon basin in latin america to come to rome to address the major crisis of the priest shortage in the amazon region. 10,000 catholics for every priest as opposed to in the United States, 2 or 3,000 catholics for every priest. The priest shortage, a major crisis for the Catholic Church in the amazon, but the amazon bishops asked the pope to, two things, one, allow married deacons to become priests which would have brought married men into the priest hood. And two, to bring women into. Now, this seems a little bit obscure, perhaps, but the d eechlt aconate is one of the holy orders for most of 1500 years was a part of the clerical system. It went into disuse hundreds of years ago, the deaconate, people not in the clerical culture and do everything the priests do except say mass, hear confession and last rites. They of conduct weapons and baptism, part of the it without being a part of the clerical culture. And this is an example how francis could move this culture. Ordaining women, women, catholic people need to demand it, its a matter of justice. This is the era of metoo. Is the Catholic Church going to be immune from the demand of women to be treated as full equals . Here is another question that i think is kind of right up your alley in several different ways. The questioner says can we rely on priests to be train agents. Theyve been taught, brainwashed to follow, i think its similar to a soldier in the military. The last implied in the question, that many of us feel, priests as a group, even though individually they may be heroically standing for a new kind of church, as a group, they are not and one does wonder why. I remember from my own time as a priest, the pressures, also the feelings of, frankly, the feelings of unworthiness that went hand in hand with the call to be perfect, which is one of the things we felt imagine, a kind of inhuman fantasy. I wouldnt be so to say that priests are braen brainwashed, but inculcated, and even those in principle, but they have to find ways to reject it in reality. Some of my most vociferous critics who are liberal priests who insist im long when i indict the priesthood when they want to distinguish between the wicked clericalism and the priesthood. And my own view what ive come to in these two years, that the priesthood is poisoned by the culture of clericalism. This is a question that goes, i think, directly to the end of your book given the lack of traction on these issues and continuing power structure, what is the incentive to stay instead of practicing somewhere more progressive or leaving organized religion altogether . Well, thats a decision to be made in the sacred confines of one own conscience. And i know many, many people who have left the Catholic Church and i understand it and salute it. Ive made a different choice. Im inviting others to consider it, but im not actually advocating it. My own view is this is institution is worth fighting for. I believe that the future of the human species i dont want to be grand about it, but this is what i believe. The future of the human species at a time when were threatened with selfextinction in any number of ways, our technologies, our weapons, our corruption of the climate, when were threatened with selfextinction, i think the human species is desperately in need of the humane, informed, justiceminded roman Catholic Church if only because of the scale of it. More than a billion people crossing every boundary, rich, poor, illiterate, intellectually, and everywhere human beings on the planet, and their commonwealth, their community could be a tremendous force for good as the human species confronts the very dangerous future. Where else do i have such access to insulin on the Great Questions of war on climate and piece. Well, as a citizen of the United States, yes, and thats why i am a devoted, committed, person working for justice and peace in the United States. But also, as a catholic because this institution carries that kind of historical weight. This is an issue that we have not touched on about you id be curious about your thoughts. The question is, in the present time, how does the wealth of the church relate to clericalism . Well, clericalism also suggests a lack of transparency, that power structure im talking about. It protects itself. Its committed to its own preservation above all. The wealth of it is part of the story. The Catholic Church began a democratic reform with the Second Vatican Council. It was short circuited by panic stricken bishops and a couple of panic stricken popes. And transparency across the board of all times and financial transparency is key. And the scandal of the churchs abuse of many and wealth is one of the things that needs to be confronted and you, mike, brought this to the fore with your reporting about the way in which the cat athletic bishops of the United States were exploiting the covid relief money. Exactly. Would you just in a nutshell remind me what you found . Sure. We found that the Catholic Church received requested and received more than 3 billion in Coronavirus Relief aid through the Paycheck Protection Program and we also showed that at the same time, many dioces were sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars in surplus funds and altogether the church was sitting on billions while taking billions of taxpayer money that theoretically should have been going to struggling small businesses. So it strikes me that the Catholic Church is very concerned about money. It is part of the power structure without any question. And therefore, the questioner raised a crucially important point. I think thats right. He think thats right. It definitely figures. I mean, you know, the boston archdiocese has closed many schools for a variety of different reasons, but the boston archdiocese has about 200 million in reserve funds. Thats not including any of its property. This is money on reserve and theres a Boston School foundation that has 33 million on reserve, uncommitted funds. So theres no doubt that the Catholic Church likes acquiring money. We see it all the time. And it is part of the power structure and perpetuates the power structure. The democratic reform of the church is what im talking about, would address that problem. Bringing in lay people, transparency, accountability, basic principles of democratic liberalism, nowhere in practice in church today. You know, some of these questions just respect some frustration. Somebody asked here, how do you reckon with something so large, so global . Can change ever happen . I wanted to return to something i referred to in passing before. Sure. The most important change in the Catholic Church in my lifetime and i would argue, in the entire history of the Catholic Church, took place in 1964 and 1965, in relationship to the churchs teaching on jews and judaism. Look, its in the gospels. The gospels scapegoat a group called the jews for the murder of jesus. It was the romans who murdered jesus. If you read the account, you would think that Pontius Pilate was a good guy forced to kill jesus by the jews. And thats how deep antijudaism goes. Antijudaism was exposed for what it was and what it did in the antisemitism of genocidal nazi murder. After that, the Catholic Church saw it. Thats what led to the Second Vatican Council, which is why its first order of business was to change what it was believing and teaching about the jews. Renounce the christ killer charge. Contradicting the gospels own account and renounce the idea that god replaced the chosen people of the jews, with the chosen people of the church. Gone. Thee logically deleted. Now, its true that the church is still at the mercy of the hangover of this tradition and in holy week next week, christians, catholics all over the world will hear the jews scapegoated again in the goss bell and hopefully priests and preachers will show how its not true, that wont happen much. But my point is that great change can happen and it can happen quickly. It takes a historical moment, the holocaust, and it takes great leadership, pope john, xxiii. Excuse me, and the fathers of the Second Vatican Council who themselves lived through the holocaust. We have an equivalent moment now. If the massive rape of children and the coverup preferring predators to victims isnt a crime of the scale needed to change at these basic levels, this corruption of clericalism, what is . And i do believe id like to before we end, if it werent for the work of journalists and then lawyers, and then the victims themselves, the scandal of that massive crime against children by Catholic Priests would still be, if not completely hidden, it would still be on the margin of peoples consciousness. So i dont want to have this conversation end without saluting you again, mike, and the really crucial work you did for all those victims, for the truth, for the broad culture and also for the Catholic Church. I hope you wont be insulted if i call it a kind of ministry that you did and that youre doing still. No, in fact, im flattered and you know, the purpose of my journalism is to make change and so, im grateful that ive had an opportunity to make change and i think the best thing about tonight is your very powerful and profound message that change with activism is possible. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you both so much, not just for your time, but for the incredible amount of work youve done and you know, exposing these problems and you know, being a voice and using your platform to help those in need someone to speak for them and im really, really happy that youre here today and speaking with us. Thank you very much on behalf of harvard bookstore, thank you so, so much. To everyone who is watching tonight. Thank you so much for tuning in and supporting of indy book selling and the harvard bookstore, publishers, authors, the incredible staff working every day to bring events like this to you. Im really, really, really sorry if we didnt get to your question, unfortunately theres so many wonderful questions tonight, but luckily a beautiful book, the truth at the heart of the lie, and a link in the chat if youd like to purchase. From all of us at harvard bookstore, continue to stop indy, continue to shop local and james and mike any final words. Id love to say thank you to you, audrey and to jeff give my regards. I will. My last word has to be another word of thanks to you, mike. What privilege to be with you this evening and your thoughtful reading of my book is a great gift. I dont take it for granted. Its a wonderful book, a really wonderful book. Thanks, adri, great to be here. Thank you. Have a great night, everybody, take care. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday, American History tv documents americas stories and on sunday, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction book. Funding comes from these Television Companies and more, including charter communication. Broadband is a force for empowerment. Thats why charter has invested billions, building infrastructure, upgrading technology and empowering opportunity in communities big and small. Charter is connecting us. Charter communications along with these Television Companies support cspan2 as a public service. 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