Transcripts For CSPAN2 IRS 20240704

[inaudible conversations] the committee will reconvene and is now back in order. The chair recognizes mr. Palmer from alabama for five minutes. Is. Think the chairman and i want to welcome the whistleblowers and thank you for your courage and for your duty to faithfully enforce the laws of the United States. Mr. Shapley the statute of limitations has run out on a number of possible felony chargesy for 2014, 2015 is that correct . Thats correct. There were huge tax liabilities for those years, correct . Therere were tax liabilities, yes. But you didnt have access to all the evidence related to those sources of income, did you . Based on the limitations placed on us by the delaware u. S. Attorneys office, thats likely. The committee recently reviewed a nonclassified the document from the fbi called fd 1023 form, which is a form used by the fbi to memorialize information related to it by confidential human sources, the 23 form was created in june of 2020. This isnt a tip sheet or hotline. Its not a suggestion box. Its a legitimate source used by the fbi and it was used here. Mr. Shapley, did you ever reviewed the 1023 form with information about hunter biden and President Biden . No i did not. I reviewed the form, and theres startling allegations in it. What would you have done if presented with this piece of evidence regarding this potential stream of income . Would that have constituted an additional area of investigation . Since ive never seen the document i only know whats been reported, so i can say that there were investigativesa steps that involved President Biden that were not allowed to be taken and that information like this would have been really helpful to have from investigators, by investigators when we received any pushback and when we were asked to take names on documented requests or search warrants, it would have been nice to have information that showed why it helped prove why those names needed to be in those requests. I think its material to your investigation because after all the information that led you related to Hunter Bidens lifestyle alleged to the investigations to begin with. Was there other evidence in this investigation that you were denied access to . Yes there was. Do you want to elaborate on that . One piece was the hunter biden laptop. Theres a memorandum in the document in contemporaneously in the house ways and Means Committee testimonynyne that sts what the United States attorney lindsay wolf told us i think september 3rd of 2020 and that they had information from the laptop that they were not providing to the investigators. Can i add something on that . When it came to questions, as a part of the investigation we interviewed a lot of people. And as a part of that investigation, you want to feel free to ask questions. It should be an open environment. I realize there are some attorneyclient privilege is involved in this, but there was an environmental when we were interviewing people, when we were interviewing witnesses when you were afraid to ask questions that could lead to the president ial campaign. I think another piece of relevant information. I you guys who are trying to do Due Diligence were faithfully execute the laws of the United States, were denied evidence relevant to your investigation very think the 1023 form is a very important piece mr. Chairman. I went to asked mr. Sigler at one point you wanted to move the investigation to the district of columbia is that correct . Works in the very onset of the investigation yes. What a joint to move it to d. C. . Wein were there two different scenarios d. C. Is involved. We start initiating the investigation on referred prosecution which time period . As far as the venue for the tax case we saw we did our analysis that was either in california or d. C. I guess at the time of theth beginning it was d. C. That restart our investigation was in d. C. You were told attorney weiss could bring charges is that your understanding . Fast forward to march 2022. I had a phone call with the prosecutors assigned to the case. They set our prosecution report went to low level people at the d. C. U. S. Attorneys office the low level people reviewed it said were going to assist you with this, this is were going to do to help you finish the case here in d. C. A fewda days later i get another phone call it is from the same assigned attorney. They tell me now the u. S. Attorney has reviewed it, not only is it a no but its note you should not work this investigation in the district of columbia. Mr. Chairman, it appears to me mr. Zigler was misled. On that his instincts were right that it should have been moved to the district ofve columbia. And again i want to thank you for your courage and fidelity to the law. He yelled back too. Ty chat recognizes mr. Khanna for five minutes. Thinking mr. Chairman i see it you understood duty strict enforcement of tax laws youve often disagreed charging decisions before . I have a grip discharging decisions. With charging decisions is that true . I dont think disregarded as an accurate representation. There are people in your own irs have disagreed with your decisions often before, is that accurate . That is not accurate by. Is it not true the tax counsel in the criminal to providence disagreed often with your decisions in the past . Ask criminal tax attorneys, yes. And as i stated it. How often are they disagreed in your opinion with your recommendations andnd decisions . Very often criminal tax attorneys yes. Quick should give us a percentage of how often you have said we ought to charge someone and they said that may not be a good idea . Yes a ball parking a vast majority of what we do. They are advisory. To have respect for . Them . Most prosecutors progress at the simple question do you respect this colleagues or not . Often their opinions is not respected bite media. Do you respect them question what you have more respect for them or mr. Weiss . I just think you have a history of wanting to charge people and then people pushing back. But your own testimony under oath he said about 90 of the time people are pushing back on what you want to do. I am not questioning it. You are a stickler for the law. E reminds me the famous personal one to get the person who has a sandwich. And all of the time youve got people pushing back on you pretty say theyre not very well respected. Cooksey respect mr. Weiss . Toxic criminal taxim attorneysv have never had a case that they declined they did not concur with and move forward. 90 they have disagreed with you, correct by her own testimony . Pixel some ask on the media. You have never spoken to the Washington Post or any reporter on this matter correct . It is correct breaker to be spoken to any media outlet on thisis matter . I haveho spoken after the hoe ways and Means Committee pay. Beforef that any journalist n this matter . Absently not progress you know if any colleague of yours at the irs is spoken to any journalist on this . Exceptionally not progress you have any investigation into invs on this matter . The october at six the leak i was a person who referred it to our inspector general. Unit any of your colleagues . December 9 of 2020 on the day of action. And if your colleagues are under investigation . Do you know if any of your colleagues are under investigation for that leak . And no i know of no under investigation for that leak but. Just for the record is your testimony under oath he never spoke with any media posted before. With testimony about this matter . Sent on my testimony under oah today i have half a day of house ways and Means Committee stating the same but ive said it to our ceinspector Generals Office as well. I appreciate that i want to make a final point. When i think mr. Chairman. And the gentleman answered thee question . Time mr. Chairman. I want a minute to wrap up. Okay you have a minute. Hears the points. This whole thing the Ranking Member rest can summarize them. You have a tough feud with the law shouldin be. This is why we have a prosecutorial system i dont get to decide it turns out often your recommendation on who should be charged differ from some of the other folks for that is what has happened in this case. And your testimony here you your self said you think mr. Weiss should come and explain his decision. You dont question him on the optics of my colleagues have brought up, obviously attorney general barr is going to be concerned with the optics we have a donald trumpop appointed u. S. Attorney and against his rival son. So my view here is we are spending hours on a disagreement whether to charge someone we have a whole democratic process that does that part you do not get to my final question do you think you should decide who gets charged . Or do you think that should be the charging officer . Each time you say this is a disagreement you say multiple times it does not make it trooper rick testified under oath here about prosecutors with felony charges and multiple occasions. Just to say this is a disagreement would be a misrepresentation for. Who do you think . You think you should have that final decision or prosecutor should have the final decision . I do not make the final decision whether to charge or not. Appreciate that progress mr. Chairman have a a second . Point of order mr. Chairman. Are we instituting a neutral and the committee . I seen this happen before. Next i didnt know if it was to answer are you finished . Or someone else can follow up. Oxygen with time has expired the chair recognizes ms. Green for five minutes per. Think itnu mr. Chairman. I would like to let the committee and everyone watching at home that parental discretion is advised. I would also like to remind everyone with the Oversight Committee, we provide oversight to all parts of the federal government including the department of justice. Their willingness and their unwillingness to prosecute. I would also like to say with evidence and proof of a crime is prevented no prosecution should be denied no matter who the person is. To the whistleblowers today i think both of you forh your courage to come to the committee today and your commitment to truth. I have Great Respect for it to thank you. I like to talk with you both about hunter biden tax write offs with this law firm. I would like to ask mr. Ziegler, start your investigation . In your testimony is november 18 is thatt correct yes or no . Whats yes that is correct. During your testimony of the house ways and Means Committee stated that through bankk recors you identified hunter biden was paying prostitutes related to a potential prostitution ring is that correct . Yes or no pay. Yes that is correct. Ive also reviewed the same bank reports commonly referred to as suspicious activity reports. I am very troubled by them. We read thousands of them in the treasury. This particular excerpt talks about human trafficking. In regards to hunter biden and payments he was making. What is even more troubling to me is the department of justice has brought no charges against hunter biden that will vindicate the rights of these women who are clearly victims under the law. I would like to talk about in your prior testimony you stated they were investigating violations of the mann act is that correct mr. Zigler . That is correct. Regarding the mann act if a person isr transported across state lines for sexual activities such as prostitution, that could be a violation of a federal law is that correct . Actually recently looked at the federallo law regarding mann act and i believe that is correct. I would referrr you to the d. O. Manual. Thank you. I would like to present this to the committee. This is showing hunter biden paying for a victims united flight from l. A. To dulles. I believe this is a violation of the mann act this is Hunter Bidens proof he bought the ticket. He bought it for this woman right here. He flew her from los angeles to washington on june 14. Flew her back to los angeles, california on june 15 of 2018. And i would like to point out that if he was purchasing her a plane ticket for sex and traveling across state lines do you believe that to be a violation of the mann act mr. Ziegler . Mr so i can talk specifically what is in my transcript regarding the mann act. I know we were compiling the information together protects yes mr. Ziegler is the law states by the code of the law it states a traveling comic paint so much go across state lines is isnt prostitution. Its a violation of the mann act. Let me move on one more second here. When hunter biden paid for this woman to do this with him to travel across state lines from california to washington d. C. On june 15, this is a violation of the mann act. This was prostitution. Let me continue. That hunter biden also uses company to pay prostitutes . You hold on one second . Experiment . We will give you this additional time back. Regarding man act of violations will turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee they can decide to turn them over to you regarding man act for. Thank you mr. Ziegler. So, talking about hunter biden using this company to pay prostitutes, this is also a suspicious activityal report showing victim one, the woman who is paid for prostitution, that traveled from california to washington d. C. Paid for byai hunter biden this is an excerpt from am report that we read in the treasury. I thank you all have looked at these two, showing that. Victim one was supposedly an employee. But i would like to point out this is not really what most paralegals do. For law firms. And it is very serious that hunter biden was paying this woman through his law firm and then writing it off as a businesstax exemptions. Most people right off things for their taxes through their businesses like a meal or say office supplies. But can you confirm for me that hunter biden had written off payments to prostitutes through his lawug firm . I appreciate the question given by the statute and limited in my testimony today. I respectfully would need to turn those records over to the house ways and Means Committee for. Thank you mr. Zigler. One last question. You referred to one of the assistants as west coast assistance. I believe this is the west coast assistance to prove that . I can tell you there were deductions for what we believe to be escorts that 10,000 dolla0 dollars golf Club Membership, yes that was notat a golf Club Membership that was for a sex club payment. It was for eight sex club payment such as this from hunter biden to prostitutes. Mr. Truman we are at 153 seconds over as long as she can get equal time. I will let miscreant wrap up five seconds. And ill give additional time for. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Shapley you have investigation enter hunter biting codename sportsmen which opened in 2018. It was an offshoot of an investigation the irs was conducted into a foreignbased amateur online pornography platform. This is evidence of hunter biden making sex tapes this is my time. Making pornography. What should we be displaying this mr. German question was intensely time is expired with the two and half minutes over. If you want the two and half minutes he can have it. If he wants to yield some when she goes she can have it. We will make it right minutes. You have it to half minutes the chair recognizes for. Point of order. Point of orderf mr. Chairma. My understanding is this committee was provided the suspicious activity reports on thee condition that it not publicize them for the reason they are not actually even allegations much less evidence of anything. My colleague from georgia has now just revealed it publicly. That is a good point. However that suspicious activity report has been public for years. That suspicious was on the internet long before i became chair of this committee. That particular suspicious activity report has already been publicized up a quick thank you for that clarification she says part of the thousand she reviewed the appreciate the clarification. What we in for five minutes if you want more time we will work with you. Thank you mr. Much mr. Chair. Im going to claim my five minutes and yield two and a half additional minutes that youve tegiven me to make colleague frm new york. Im glad to him and brought the word suspicious activity because that is just whats taking place in his room. Dont make no mistake about it. Want to congratulate my colleagues from across the aisle for gathering us here today almost distracting us from the biggest investigations going on right now and our country and in our nations history involving the former president and the front writer for the republican nomination who is currently facing a 37 count indictment. This week and to ask from doubt more and then maybe two weeks corporate were taught by hunter biden someone who is always pleaded guilty to not filing his taxes but having a gun charge. And now i hear also paying for prostitution. Bus adjuster member there is in a case in new york not too long ago were our former president also got into trouble regarding payments and regarding a stripper. And was found guilty of a violation in civil court. Sethere seems to be a lot of hemming and hawing about special treatment, special treatment. The press and a couple days ago tried to request the u. S. E district judge whom he appointed to consider the fact he was a candidate look for it maybe, maybe, maybe he is proud to be put off until after the election. That seems to me like special treatment if ive ever heard of it before. But im grateful my colleagues on the other side the i owe i have taken at least tax evasion very seriously. I would welcome a hearing on the former president history of tax evasion how long it took to see his tax returns covering 10 years and what was the outcome of that decision . The Trump Organization was hit with 1. 6 million in Manhattan State Court being convicted of a tech scheme. So lets be real when we talk about this. Its not just hunter biden but his songs were saying hunter biden forget about everything else. Hunter biden said i did not fie taxes in twowo years and yes ths gun charge i will take responsibility for. I love the fact we are so much and love with thewi irs. Speaker mccarthy said when he was elected on the 15th vote that the first bill he would repeal funding for was the bill that would provide for 87000 additional irs employees. Dont we love the irs . We are going to cut their budget. There is a member of this committee on their own website said they are proud to have voted to strip away the plan to power the irs with additional funding. Im going to back to those wors about keeping it real and i think we have to do that. I just think to quit things. It hunter biden in any way and your knowledge not hunter but did any of his children receive money, yes or no . Cook i think special agent will be better to answer brickwork press yes or no either one . Congress and think of your question given by the statute of limited in my testimony but we can turn over any of the records that relate to the adult children. We would like to see those really i would since we are so concerned about tax evasion weve got people the highest levels of government doing it we do not talk about that at all. Now here is what galls me. I do not like these attacks on the department of justice. Fbi the irs they are somehow anti u. S. Agencies. Those agencies keep this democracy in check. They provide the checks and they provide the balances. We could be quite frankly using our time to talk about crime in america that is affecting everybody. Attacks on womens health, the economy, budget issues, housing, the need for Senior Citizens to be able to pay for prescription drugs, child, poverty and Mental Health to name a few. And yet we are doing this all over again for the hunter biden show to someone who has pleaded guilty on his taken responsibility for not filing taxes for two years. This is ludicrous. Beam me upt scotty there is no intelligent life down here, none appeared. The chair not recognizes mr. Armstrong from north dakota. If i could plead guilty to two years of tax evasion is accused of sex i might consider that to be a pretty good plea deal. Lets talk about what this is what its supposed to be. Mr. Shipley are going to testify irs criminal tax attorneys are advisory only and often d. O. J. Prosecutors disagree with the irs tax attorneys is that probably an accurate statement . Text yes that is an accurate statement. What this is important everyone continues to go after you check you are the only two people involved in this. You went to work for the irs in 2008 . 2009 correct. Quest mr. Zigler question. 2010. Ar what you started under president obama, continued your career under President Trump and are continuing your career under President Biden. Is thatac accurate . When your entire career excluding today how many times we talked about the u. S. Attorney . As hega talked about why was a democratic i appointee or a republican appointee . I have not, no progress mr. Zigler kuester. No. S not supposed to matter. That is all we have u. S. Attorneys that also go across administration and work there it thats part of the Investigative Team recommended that you charge hunter biden for every tax year from 2014 until 2019. And felonies for 20142018. Scheme to evade taxes through partnership with a convicted felon is that accurate . Yes that is accurate. Settlement taxes are not paid time it was over 1. 5 million. That did not include interest in penalty or other enhancements that are typically involved in this case,e, correct . Yes that is correct. Your testimony identifies two separate terminal violations which of thecr attempt to avoid taxes and filing false tax returns they both carry a sixyear statute of limitations. That is correct. 2,142,015 tax years most substantial criminal conduct and concealed material facts. You expound on that a little bit . Yes that statement house ways and Means Committee is in reference to the income from burisma. That was not reported. It would be complete completely completelycompletely left off tl record. As a part of any please oh, correct . Alexa cannot speak to the plea deal i do not believe so. And want to talk about something that is a little unique to take you back to 2020. This is the whole Team East Coast all across the country numerous interviews are going to be conducted. Hunter biden was the subject of one of those in l. A. , correct . This is unique. Joe biden has won the election. We are walking into this there are enough to contact the secret services youre not walking with armed fbi and she would a may protectyou . Yes we had a plan on how to which that way. Could you explain that question across the fbi has to say and i were assigned with interviewing hunter biden that day. The date previously went to the l. A. Fbi field office and askedm them special agent in charge of the secret service for the l. A. Field offers. December 8 and tell them the two agents going to approach hunter biden is part of an official investigation. St in the night beforee all of that change progress on that change because fbi orders and secretcr service and native. The information gotten out to everybody the night before. Highly political all this is another group of people made of where he left the night before, swasnt there . That is w correct for. That is the transition fee that is correctly the Transition Team president elect cabin employees, work ondo inauguratin view all the senses that your understanding . In general yes. Theyve investigative powers i dont know about . Its not that i would know of. Their entire history in this any the irs for. Help set up an interview with the subject of a criminal investigation with. I have not brickworks last question if you ever get to interview hunter biden . We did not interview him. Thank you first five minutes plus three two and a half minutes that we would over. Thank you very much mr. Sherman. Good afternoon mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler i want to thank you both for print before us today understand this is not easy it is very important that both of you are respected during the course of this hearing. Mr. Zigler incorporate deposition to the waist deep at committee i do believe that you began this investigation in 2018, correct . It is correct. Some of the events you discuss took place two, three, four years ago, correct . Or the last several years . That will be correct. Your deposition in the ways and Means Committee and your inr testimony before usr today you relate the memory of events of a course of ars fiveyear investigation. When you testified before the ways and Means Committee also yu also testified you were told then attorney general william barr who made the decision too merge the delaware hunter biden investigations, correct . Rex i did testify you accept the test about your attorney wrote in a letter to congress, i quote competent he was told by his supervisor the merging of the cases without the direction of official at the department of justice. However on further reflection mr. Ziegler cannot definitively state that is then supervisor said the department of justice official directing the merger of the cases was attorney general barr, correct . That is correct i can tell youac i actually refreshed my memory from looking at my emails. There is an email i found from a supervisor at that time that stated what had happened. I can turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee at some point. And in that update email does it include attorney general barr . Or not . I cannotc speak to the contet of that email. No problem. Truly in good faith these things happen all thehe time, right . The regulation of these investigationsi record concernig amount of detail and the charges of what is being brought forward today is extremely serious. Which require a high threshold of evidence. Including investigations. I hope you agree even the best memories can be fallible at times. It is a widely understood reality in our Justice System. Mr. Shapley, from your testimony today i think you would agree it is important criminal investigations be conducted fairly free from clinical influence for that is why were here today, correct . That is correct. As you stated was kind of discussed there are often disagreements. It seems that within the transcribedve interviews we read 90 the time of the irs reviewing attorneys disagree with the charging decisions of the agents in the group, correct . That is part of the testimony, not all of it. And some of your comments you have also noted youve made reference to special counsel from the situation. The special attorney, special scounsel, correct . Document contemporaneously on that day. That is why i documented on that day. Nine months later im not trying to recall a specific word. It says special counsel authority. That is when he said that day. That is what a Senior Executive irs corroborated when hee respod to my emails for. I do think that distinction is important. Because in thisth letter to chairman jordan the issue at hand seems to give special attorney not special counsel which are two distinct different legal authorities. There also may be some confusion i think without respect to that as well. Which brings me to the point of political influence. Where there actually is a set of breadcrumbs tweets and letters sent from former President Trump to several chairs. The chair of the House Judiciary Committee that we see here. In fact according to New York Times article which id like to present to the record today, President Trumps attorney wrote to the judiciaryc chairman urgig him to investigate what he called quote a rogue local District Attorney. After the new york d. A. Convened a grand jury that currently indicted donald trump. Complied with that letter. Shortly after President Trumps attorney sent that letter to the committee which is highlys unusual. Feel it very highly unusual act. In fact after that on march 20 chairman jordan together with the committee on houseou administration, chairman steele as well as chairman of this committee wrote to District Attorney bragg and then demand a sweeping series of documents including communication between the das office in the department of justice also highly unusual. In fact on the truth social account later on, donald trump claims the u. S. Attorney investigating hunter biden make the u. S. Attorney by the way frontal trump was appointed was a coward. And in that he then urged that may be the presiding judge would have the courage and intellect to break up this quote cesspool of crime. Curiously, just a few days after this tweet chairman of the ways and Means Committee, jason smith, sent a letter to attorney weiss and general merrick and garlin who arer implicated. Explicitly asking them to place the whistleblowere testimony frm the committees deposition into the court record which were addressed during the chairmans opening statements. Before Hunter Bidens plea hearing at the end of the month. And as you can see right here chairman smith explicitly said and i quote entering this information to the formal record. Additionally those two chairman waved onto this hearing today. Elhighly unusual. Cook to gently yield . One moment. And when we talk about political influence we are not here today, unfortunately, because the fact that brought us here. We are here today because donald trump is exerting influence campaign. In congress when he is still on the president of the United States. In addition to that if we want to talk about charges that have been dismissed, and if we do it to follow the evidence perhaps we should discuss a velcro trumps investigation being close to being charged with felony fraud after Donald Trumps personal attorney provided political contributions to the local d. A. Those charges were dismissed. Ultimately we sat President Trumps attorney provided over 50000 in political contributionss after the case ws tdismissed. We talk about political contributions out help of her filing the evidence we are willing this committee is going to go there they be willing to open investigations into the dismissal charges as a ivanka trump and by the way if the gentle lady from georgia wanted to follow evidence hypothetically a case where sex trafficking charges in the 17yearold girl potentially picture gentle it is time has expired. Think i yield back. The chair recognizes arizona for five minutes per. For a quick thank you, mr. Chairman. Chairman, and seem dead outstanding job of uncovering millions of dollars sent to hunter biden from foreign sources located in places like china, romania and thehe ukrain. Its pretty obvious is the influence over hisis father goig thing missing is direct evidence to biden new and participated in his bribery schemes. That is what you brave men come in. Your efforts with the potential to uncover direct evidence and pay to play in some cases it did. Theyre very injured from doing their job by the department of justice. At every stage the benefit this investigation. Hunter biden and by extension joe biden. These men are not political people. They are hardworking agents the lesson we want to do is speculate. So im going to stick to the most egregious examples of the d. O. J. Examples. And leave it up to the American People on all income received from sources, right . Yes. Hypothetically receives a Million Dollars for serving inpa an oil company they owe taxes on that 1 million approximate 30 , correct . If they are you a u. S. Taxpayer yes but. Include receipt of such income by late u. S. Tax codes, correct . Yes it would. Pay the tax owed and whatever amount violates the tax code, correct . Yes it does for quick tax code is criminal Civil Penalties for these violations, correct question or. That is correct for a quick hypothetically the person receives a milliondollar paymentt and conveys 10 of that amount to another person, that person making the payment may have to pay gift tax on that amount, correct . Of this its a gift, yes. Orye conversely has to pay income tax on the money as well, correct . If on the gift portion . Know they would have to report the gift on their tax returns. I do not. Believe to be taxable to them. If failure is subject to criminal or Civil Penalties, correct . Filing false tax returns is against the law, yes. Is her definite confirmation all evidence on the hunter biden laptop has been reviewed by federal agents and prosecutors . Proxy prosecutors stated evidence was withheld from the investigators. We do not know how much. Next d. O. J. Prosecutors like your team to access the laptop . Im sorry could you repeat the question . What did d. O. J. Prosecutors layer team to access thehe lapt . D. O. J. Prosecutors . Laptop comes in the computer specialist that reviewed the laptop. Re and they create reports and posl stuff progress you are prohibited from looking at anything onn the laptop, right . We saw some but not all. Is it normal for the d. O. J. To deny thiso type of access to investigators questioner. Know thatim the first hundred been experiencing limited to evidence requested did assistant attorney wolf collaborate withrr the data on the laptop . Collaborate the data . I would not know. Okay. I guess my question comes back. The reason i went down this rabbitt hole lose that, is your conclusion youreha interfered with and that those that interfered with you are as guilty as those creating the problem . Are the accessories to the crime is when im getting to questioner. I would agree their investigative steps that are obstructed by d. O. J. Id nevermy seen in my 14 years. It makes no sense we would not want to pluck all the evidence available. I cant on the second partier question. Got you. Mr. Ziegler, did the d. O. J. Prosecutors did not your request to look into the famous im sitting here at my father text from hunter biden, did they allow you to obtain Location Information to zero the text was sent from . I know it was an issue that came up whether we can get the location data i know that was a conversation i would have had with the assigned prosecutors. I recall them saying to me how do we know that hes there . How do we know thats true . We said we would get thata. Location data. As part of my normal investigation that is what i wouldd do. What i can tell you is i know i did not do itt i do not know if the fbi ended up doing it it was kind of like i need to think about it is the proper response. Got you. My time is up i yield back because john was time has expired the chair now recognizes ms. Brown. Five minutes for quick thank you, mr. Chairman for the American People have lost track of your suppose it investigation prison biden. Is it inr investigation of his son who does not and has never worked at the white house . Or another Family Member . We cannot evenw follow which investigation we are discussing today, is at the fbi, irs, or something new . I know the American People are confused because we are all confused what we are doing here. Nothing this majority is claimed about the president for his family has merits. No wonder the folks back home are tuning out of this confused mess. My colleagues on the otherm side of the aisle have shredded all of their credibility in this committee but they simply grasp at straws that do not exist. In this congress so far we have held more hearings on gas stoves than gun violence and culture wars and Kitchen Table issues. So, lets talk about the real twotiered Justice System. The one in which Big Corporations pollute the air we breathe and the big banks called meltdowns with their negligence in not one person is held criminally liable. They certainly are not called by the majority to sit before this committee or mr. Chairman what if we talked about the other unspoken twotiered Justice System in this country . The one where people of color are subject to a deliberately harsher system at every term from policing to present to parole. In this country a black person is five times more likely to be stopped without due cause that a white person. And, black defendants are 25 more likely to be held pretrial. Meanwhile the twice indicted former president is out campaigning did not even have to post availed her yet hundreds of thousands of americans sits behind bars waiting forit their day in court. These are the types of lived experiences we should be addressing in this Oversight Committee. This is the real twotiered Justice System it is the Justice System democrats are trying to fix after four years of donald trump misuse. Congressional republicans however are working to make these inequalities worse for their efforts to defend the irs and other democratic priorities including the inflationnc reduction act. The mcauley claim to a stricter irs enforcement you would think we would at least agree on giving the irs its properud fighting but let me conclude by asking simple question. Mr. Shapley yes or no do know the rate at which black taxpayers are audited as compared to taxpayers who are not black . I do not know the answers black taxpayers are audited at 2. 9 4. 7 times the rate of nonblack taxpayers. Another question for you sir, yes or no. Was hearing help alleviate the Racial Disparity in the race of the irs audit . No. I will yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member brickwork thank you kindly and for your excellent questioning and statement there. The u. S. Attorney for delaware had changed his tune or change his story. But when you look at the letters he actually sent he did not change his tune at all. He said the exact same thing every time an expanded the answer to be perfectly clear. June 7 letter ive been granted ultimate authority over this matter including responsibility for deciding where, when and whether to file charges making decisionsce necessary to presere integrity the prosecution consistent with federal law, the principles of federal prosecution departmental regulations. In other words its up tom. Him. Second in my june 7 letter i stated quote ive been granted ultimate authority over this matter including responsibility for deciding where, when and whether to file charges et cetera. Unquote i stand by what i wrote. I wish to expand on what this pameans. Gets to the heart of what were doing here today. As the u. S. Attorney for the district of delaware by charging authorities geographically limited to my home district. If it lies elsewhere, departmental practices contact u. S. Attorneys office for the district in question to determine whether it wants to partner on the case. If not i may request special attorney status from the attorney general pursuant to. Here im assured if necessary i would be going to section 515 authority and the district of columbia the Central District of california or any other district were charges could be brought in this matter. The difference between special counsel and special attorney which might explain the confusion or the disagreement in any event u. S. Attorney for delaware is all the authority he needed to bring whatever he wanted. And he is the witness for that prethank you, mr. Chairman i will yield back. He would like to be assured of that authority for. He was and he said heo was assured. He has limited within delaware. Ed that is the route youre restating what the rules are that is what he explained. You are not a lawyer, right question if youou do not work at the department of justice correct . A oxygen was time has expired. The chair recognizes doctor fox and mcewen for five minutes. Ask thank you mr. Chairman thank you for being here today. Blowing the whistle against a man as wellconnected as hunter biden is truly courageous and i hope all of my colleagues can appreciate that as well. I would like to start with the simple question, when did you start your career as an investigator with the irs . July of 2009. Thank you. What year you promoted to a supervisory role . Works 2018. That is 14 years of service the irs with five of those years the Senior Leadership position, correct . That is correct. Did you ever in your 14 years of experience see investigation be handled in the same manner as the one we are here to discuss today . The one and Hunter Bidens taxes . I have not, no. Went where you may be supervisor of the investigation and mr. Bidens operation sportsmen . January of 2020. By your estimate at that time when did you initially believe the evidence was sufficient to request physical search warrants anda california, arkansas, new york and washington d. C. . Special agent drafted affidavit in z april or may that was for the search warrant. Of 2020 . Yes im sorry. Precooked is a short time after that you began to suspect career officials were dragging their feet regarding the next steps in the investigation, is that correct . That is correct three. Two months later in june of 2020 you came to the belief expressing as such communications with the irs normal procedures have been followed the search warrants will have been executed is that correct . That is correct yes. Is this within the typical timeframe for the selfimposed investigative that d og historically tends to implement in cases preceding elections . It was not. The official department of justice Public Integrity standdown came on september 4 of 2020. After the initial steps were inexplicably denied prosecutors continued to decline to advance on promising leads. There were for example many problematic Text Messages and emails on the infamous laptop in august of 2020. When were youou a form by assistant u. S. Attorney wolf the d. O. J. Would not allow a searchh warrant on hunter biden . I do not recall the exact date, do you . I dont think thats in the confines of our testimony. But we. Can provide that information to the house ways and Means Committee a clarification of that. Then that can clarify the issue. My understanding it was october 2020. We per share clear vocation of that. Assistant u. S. Secretary wolf decision not to execute a search warrant on hunter biden strike you as ai typical customer exit generally any other investigation of your probable cause to believe this evidence of that location that could help prove our violations boo execute the search warrant. It was an unusual action . Yes congresswoman. Is it fair to conclude this pattern of atypical sometime sos bewildering actions taken by the District Attorneys office happened over the course of the entire investigation and not just one or two occurrences . That is correct. It was the pattern that really drove me too come forward of the deviation from normal a investigative processes. In your opinion do these ought atypical bewildering actions bolster or harm the investigation . I believe he heard theon investigation. Sayo our chairman i would there is something rotten in the state of delaware. And what has happened here with hunter biden would not have happened to other americans. This is totally unfair i think it is very important that we get to the bottom of this investigation and find out who has been obstructing this sense of justice. The American People demand justice. This committee demand justice along with the other committees involved in the thank you for this hearing. I think our witnesses precooked generally time is expired the chair recognizes ms. Stansberry from mexico for five minutes. Think i like to get right into some basic vetting questions. As unfortunately our colleagues across the aisle failed to do so some the previous witnesses they called i am hoping these are very simple, very straightforward questions. I would ask that you answer that themwith a yes or no answer. Are you now or have you ever acted as an unregistered Foreign Agent for the Chinese Government or for any other government . No. Mr. Ziegler are you now or have you ever acted as an unregistered or registered Foreign Agent . No progress mr. Shapley have you ever participate in anff illegal arms trafficking . Lex know i have not been. And mr. Ziegler, yourself . I have not. And finally mr. Shapley have you ever been indicted of a crime, lied to investigators while under oath or run from the law . Know i have not been. Mr. Ziegler same question to you . Have youyo ever been indicted, lied to investigators or run infrom the law . I have not. Thank you for answering those questions. I was to be strange to have two riessays clarifying questions bt given thegi majoritys track record in calling witnesses on this matter, not to mention their own president ial candidate seemed necessary to clarify for our american folks who are listening today. They claim investigating here in tithe Oversight Committee. Namely political influence and abuse of power and other alleged crimes by a president and their relation. And again because time is limited molest to stick with straightforward yes and no answers. A two billion dollar investment from the government after working for his fatherinlaw at the white house, correct . Congressman i thank you for the question. Im here to talk about the hunter biden investigation perplexes a widely known fact and i appreciate your response. Misters zigler you art seat serving a Senior Advisor to her father ivanka trump had a number of trademarks fast tracked by the Chinese Government, correct questioner. Again i have to stick to the confines of my transcript. I appreciate that. And finally, i want to remind everyone that the person who appointed u. S. Attorneyy general david weiss to cancel handle the matter we are to discuss today was donald trump. But this to be the same president , donald trump, the men twice in peachtree abuses of power and of course recently indicted route 37 counts of criminal activity. Now, one would think here in the Oversight Committee we want to investigate such blatant acts of criminal activity. I truly could not agree more with our witness mr. Shapley that there should not be a twotiered system of justice for those who are powerful and those who are wealthy and those who are not. But that is not actually what this hearing is about here today. Because it is clear this is yet otanother attempt by the majoriy to turn this committee to an another inkind donation to the current campaign. This follows on an earlier attempt this past month to undermine the fbi with a controversy at markup which did not occur in the very same day donald trump was indicted under this 37 counts if you look across the aisle we have 13 members who have already endorsed donald trump and now here we are trying to distract the American People once more. Even though it was a political appointee appointed by donald trump who was at the helm of this effort on the issues we are discussing today occurred. And yet we are using the committees resources to advance his agenda. But i think its important the American People actually understand that the real criminal the actual threat to our Democratic Institutions is donald trump. The man found it legally liable for sexual abuse. The man he refused to return classified documents to then government thee man who was inciting an insurrection that led to the death of five people and threaten the lives of people in this very room. And who threaten the very foundation of our democracy. I find it hard to believe that members who witnessed the insurrection who have witnessed these criminal indictments continue to stand heree today with donald trump and prop him up using community resources. I urge my colleagues to take a hard look in the mirror and to really reflect on what our oath of office means. And that i yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Higgins from louisiana for five minutes but. Think it mr. Chairman, mr. Shapley mr. Zigler were bornto move faster let me make a statement to begin luscious clarify for america republicans are only interested in Hunter Bidens deceptions regarding his irs confirmed receipt of the 17. 3 million shady sources in ukraine and romania and china while his father was Vice President because hunter biden had nothing to sell. He had no product, no service, no skill all hunter biden had to sell was corrupted access to his father, the big guy. How dear congressman higgins called the president of the United States may say and inaugurated president of the nine sites i would call him the big guy lets go, december 30, 2020 this20 investigator shapley and zigler irs criminal Investigation Team had a 12 hour long meeting with u. S. Etattorneys office in delawareo Prosecution Team wolf and weiss were in attendance shapley shares an irs plan interview, Biden Associate rob walker will object to the plan to the dismay of those in the room. But, she said we do not want to ask about the big guy and stated she did not want to ask about dad. Ec december 8, 2020 investigator shapley investigated zigler that meeting was special agent joe received a call from Hunter Bidens attorney stating they would accept Service Documents to request but declinedth reques for the interview. The irs investigators only able one meaningful interview. With Biden Associate rob walker. That day the investigation revealed to the press december 9, 2020 wolf gets involved again. Interrupt the investigation from december 14, 2020 the assistant u. S. Attorneyy wealth caps off biting counts about an irs plan reached a threshold of probable cause to execute a search warrant on a storage unit in northern virginia. U. S. Attorney wolf calls Hunter Bidens attorney an alert him to the pending search warrant being executed. You stated investigator shapley that every stage during your investigation decisions were made that benefited the subject of the investigation, with the subject of the investigation good sir . Whats hunter biden pickwick thank you very much i think i clarified for america why we were interested in hunter biden. Because he sold access to his father, the big guy. You americans out there may have a compromise president in your white house. You should certainly be concerned. Mr. Zigler how did the irs investigation regarding hunter biden begin, tell us briefly sir. It was a review of bank records regarding another investigation i was working. Is ancillary to another criminal investigation . Is that correct sir . Corrects pickwick sure criminal investigators that correct sir . Like that is correct. That is correct. Thank you very much investigator hashapley and september 3, 2020 meeting with the Prosecution Team for the hunter biden case assistant u. S. Attorney leslie wolf told your team there is more than enough probable cause hyfor the physical search warrat of the guesthouse at the formerm president of delawares residence for hunter biden stayed for a time. Did u. S. Attorney leslie wolf confirm your investigativeiv effort that you had sufficient probable cause for search . Yes she did. You did. Thank you very much. She told congress assistant u. S. Attorney wolf also said the question was whether the juice was worth the squeeze that is a quote. Optics were drivingic factor in the decision on whether to execute a search warrant. Optics . Have you ever run into that mr. Shapley question because im not no paper to view mr. Zigler kuester. Know if not. Why do you think the department of justice might be concerned about optics and a search of the president sons residence, when the course of a criminal investigation . Mr. Shapley . What do sensitivities involved with that search warrant. It is pretty clear is it a question but theres another searchch warrant on to touch onn my remaining section. I went have my tongue expired her. Let me just say gentleman you are courageous for coming forward and let me ask you did your job to go with an oath . Oxygen progressive have held that oath question. Of you upheld that oath as your Core Principles hundreds were driven you too reveal the corruptions of witnessing your criminal investigations coming before Congress Today . Yes it was. Yes it was pickwick thank you mr. Termini yield. Very good paid the chair now recognizes mr. Gomez for five minutes. Garcia sorry. Correct think it mr. Chairman for it lets first zero in on the bottom line. What we have is to irs investigators who clearly worked very hard on the hunter biden investigation thank you both for being here today. You both gave recommendations your prosecutors based on your work what you describe today. And then donald trump the handpicked prosecutor then made recommendations to charge hunter part he acted independently and he himself has confirm this. You did your job making recommendations the prosecutor did hisos job. You do not have to greet the conclusions but that is the bottom line of all we have today at this hearing. But todays hearing is like mot of the majority investigations and hearings. A lot of allegations, zeron proof, no receipts. The parents of dick picks. At some point they did actual evidence. Actual evidence. Weve seen absolutely none. So letsgo go back and review whats gone over the course of t the past seven months of this Smear Campaign against the white house. First the committee is clearly obsessed with hunter biden massively obsessed with him. Keep in mind theres been no evidence of any wrongdoing or transactions of the person whos actually in government, joe biden a lot about hunter, not a lot about joe biden. In hunter biden iid want to remd the majority is not the president of the United States. I want to point out no biden Family Members hold government positions of any kind for this is of course a stark contrast to the trump crime family the majority completely glazes over trumps families for dealings. The trump family of course were actually pointed to white house senior jobs to a broncos chinese trademarks are jerks relate real estate bailout to believe in private equity money so wheres that investigation . They were actually in the white house. I think Chris Christie werther republicans running for president said it best of course the former governor, this is his quote not mine. Mcgriff from the family is breathtaking. It is a breath shared and vocalh white out of the white house months laters get to billion from the saudis. Continue you think its some kind of investigative genius or investing genius, or is it because you sitting next the president of the United States for four years of doing favors for the saudis because mr. Fauci quotes her man whos known them for years they were in the white house every day formally making policy unlike hunter biden. The biden family attacks of course went nowhere they try to course to create a new storm, a new Conspiracy Theory with the socalled fbi ukraine document, another fake scandal. This too fake and have a lot of hype, a lot of scary headlines from our chairman, and a lot of members of the committee a lot of us actually read the document when you read the document it was pretty clear this was all hype a wild accusation me and pass along to the fbi was zero proof. Where did this come from . Rudy giuliani. Another Rudy Giuliani Conspiracy Theory that would know her. Giuliani recommended he by the way to be removed. Rudy to that longtime testified under oath theres no evidence the president or his son huntert introvert ukrainian politics and the never has been. Republican u. S. Attorneys copy handpicked by donald trump the term did not have sufficient evidence to further investigate thee claims members of this committee, even today repeat this narrative over and over again. More accusations no proof no receipts. What is next in the witchhunt question if this mentor this mes were so desperate just lastpu wk to find someone they could telll them what they wanted to hear they promote in collaborative the chinese spy trying to influence u. S. Policy while selling weapons to iran and libya so was a socalled whistleblower missing . We do not know skipped his bail search upon being arrested so desperate for defending this alleged crook. I want to do, we have questions was a chairman was a Committee Staff and contact when he was a fugitive question do we know where he is . What is the majority do to make sure that targets afford influence on this committee . These are the real questions we need to answer for. If youre willing to yield ill answer that question. Trouble by time records have never met in my life only gnosiw is getting money from the same company that the bidens were getting money from cfc i yield back requests and gives her term of the portofino from the committee or Committee Members or staff any contact with who s now obvious the chinese spy but you and the committee been hyping it for weeks. Is a president son a chinese spy . Proxy took a lot more money. Purchaser, servicer german you are the one hyping up a chinese spy in arms dealer for weeks. This is just another example. Next just to finish up my time let me say its clear to me this majority will stop at nothing to try to impeach President Biden, the attorney general, secretary and the list goes on and on. This is just another witchhunt the majority continues to do week after week the majority trying to interfere in ongoing Legal Proceedings to cause chaos and try to reelect donald trump. Who obviously is pulling this extremist agenda i yield back. A chart recognized for five minutes requests determine thank you very much a gentleman, welcome thank you very much for taking time. Weve been sitting here listening and strongly identify both of you has chosen to do this as strong people who have an ethical and moral idea about your service to this country and we want to thank you. Today we have examples of the department of justice and the dirs that have not just given special treatment to those who committed tax evasion and financial fraud with the president s family but i think there is another point that we want to make today. And that is i believe a taxpayer system where the agency is tasked with enforcing the laws fairlyon on regular citizens is also seeking the chance to shield those wellconnected to the president of the United States from consequences of illegal behavior in direct opposition to our nations founding principles. We have established that appeared to think that is pretty clear what you have said today. But i have a question for both of you because i believe todays hearing goes beyond that. That is that there are strong whistleblower protections under five c usc section 2302, the whistleblower protection act that afford you and any other person who works in this government for protection from retaliation after making a legally protected disclosure and doing your job you felt like there was something wrong. You said something about it filed for whistleblower status because you believe something was being held against you. In fact to both of you have made several legally protected disclosures during this time for the record is that correct . It is correct. Quickset is correct. After after making this disclosure to the irs comply with the statutorily required whistleblower protections . How were you treated in this endeavor . I will start. Since i made these disclosures they are legally protected the irs chosen to retaliate against me in multiple ways. Even now theres a major occasion initiatives special agent ziegler started as well to being put on a back burner being slow walked again my immediate supervisor and two levels above him had not spoken to me since june 1 of 2023 even though i am sending the emails and trying to conduct my business on a daily basis the literally have not spoken to me. Would that be normal . No absently not. We are writing undercover operations bridging interviews across the world. When Senior Leadership cuts off communication like that it increases the chance of officer safety type issue when we cannot communicate in those type of issues to Senior Leadership and we have no support for them. Was mr. Ziegler . To be completely honest with you this is going to make me a little emotional piglets i am sorry know this is personal you spoke about that in your opening statement. Never have i thought, its essentially like being left out on an island of offense and purposefully i essentially made disclosures to the commission of the irs. I said what happened the response i got a few days later was i may have broken the law dont ever do this again. Your email thing to go through leadership. So to have that come to me was chilling i cannot even put words to it. But what i can say is there are some people with my agency, some people within leadership that have been a person i can go to for support but the vast majority of it the impact on the person is awful. Well, retaliation is many times he may people who know it when they see it. That is why the law exists and i want both of use and was chairman of Government Operations subcommittee for this committee, and government reform and oversight, Government Accountability i will be coming to the irs and i will be going to other agencies specifically about their retaliation under the law within their agencies. That we should take as a committee a whole committee ando a subcommittee very seriously. This could be a number of matters taking place where people have chilling impact against the laws of the United States of america. Gentlemen ive been taking notes pretty want to thank you for being here. Mr. Chairman thank you ale backed by time for quick the gentleman feels that the chair recognizes from florida for. Thank you, mr. Chairman first off thank you to so much for your service and working at the irs. Very important work for lets get right into it mr. Shapley, youre blowing the whistle today because like the department of justice provide preferential treatment 200 biden is that correct . Yes. Quickset is correct. Usually hundred biden received preferential treatment because his father democratic President Joe Biden is that correct question. I cannot conclude what he is receiving the preferential treatment thats one conclusion you come to perfect evident your deposition you believe that. Mr. Ziegler did any of your supervisors explicitly tell you youre not allowed to invest get hunter biden because he is president son yes or no . I was ever told that thank you. Know what your deposition did you sug theres a larger conspiracy at play here which is of my comments on the other side would have us believe theres a twotiered Justice System that privileges democrats over republicans. That is my colleagues are doing, they are using you and using your story and using your work to make this argument for themselves. Since generous sixth republicans and trump have complained about a twotiered Justice System coopting the language of the decades Long Civil Rights Movement for black lives in black freedom of movement they are actively looking to eliminate. There is a twotiered Justice System is not about democrats versus republicans. This language to tilt justice ce system has a real history and has a real history of with the breonna taylor, has a real history with george floyd the central park five, eric d is a young man who is ann unarmed young man who was just killed in Central Florida not but a week ago. And has a real history with the more black boys from Central Florida who were falsely accused of kidnapping and sexually assaulting a white woman when they pulled over to help her buy the car was broken for the fourth boy who is not pictured here Ernest Thomas was not apprehended initially he was shot to death in his sleep. One hunter person mob want to get their hands on the remaining three black boys included until they took it out on the predominant black town residents, looted, setting fire to their homes. Charles greenlee was sentenced to prison for life, he was 16 years old. Now a quick trigger warning here for a black death and trump its important sorted till we talk but Justice System. On the back of the courthouse the sheriff took it upon himself toon shoot the two remaining individuals walter irvin and Samuel Shepard walter irvin actually ended up living becaus when he was shot he played dead but the other was shot and killed Samuel Shepard theyre both handcuffed as you can see in the photo and were shot to death they all died inin either prisonol or on parole is convicd quibbles in 202172 years later a judge exonerated them in the trial was considered a fraud. In closing there is a twotiered Justice System it does exist. But is not what my republican colleagues want to say it is using your store if that is not republican versus democrat irish black, brown, poor people versus everyone else. I will except when republican politicians which appropriate the language of the movement for black lives in civil rights to fit a political agenda to defend donald trump. This is a twotiered Justice System. This is a twotiered Justice System and so we have to continue to fight for a world where this does not happen. This is a case about hunter biden is a case closed. A close to the question for the chairman considering the quote false misrepresentation of Sensitive Information presented will be or dont the made up investigation expected to be censured by theto house . The reason i ask this because its in light of the logic and actions of the Republican Party here in the one hurt 18th congress, thank you. Yield to the Ranking Member projects thank you very kindly. R mr. Ziglar you referred to an fbi supervisory special agent with you to try to interview hunter biden. Is that someone you respect question. That was not me that window my supervisor. Insert mr. Shapley you went with this ssa without someone you respect . Guess i respect the fbi ssa. He came and did an interview withd us and he said he testifd that over the decade of experience with the delaware u. S. Attorneys office fbi agent never knew the assistant u. S. Attorneys office or wife to allow any political consideration to influence their prosecutorial decisions in any case. You accept his judgment or disae with his judgment . Fbi ssa i respect. Its a matter of timing. He retired in june of 2022. And at that time i have not even overcome the burden that it took me to say this has been politicized. Is not until october 7, 2022. The fbi ssa came to his conclusions and he was not there. Might mention Something Real quick quick, axle me just say i respect very much your service and i respect very much your testimony today i think its completely with them the realm of prosecutorial discretion and subjective differences of opinions that people have and those of us who have h been a inprosecution understand that happens all the time with the prosecutors pickwick to chair from the gentleman from arizona mr. Biggs for five minutes. Thank you its good to have yougo here. I appreciate it, appreciate your courage and your willingness to testify. Mr. Shapley im going to have to pages 18 20 of your testimony. Mr. Ziglar going to one ohpa for and one oh five of yours to start with. While youre going and going to assess question of her a lotot about this 2014, 2015, 2016 text weve heard a lot about trump. But in 2014, 15 and 16 those tax years donald trump was not elected and who is the Vice President of the United States if you know . Joe biden was a Vice President of the United States pickwick to think thats right. When the statute of limitations ran almost 14 and 15 years, who is the president of the United States . When the statute expired. That was President Biden under President Biden. In the statements and testimony that you made that i want to go over. Mr. Shapley why did you and to interview rob walker . Correct think special agent will be better to shapley. Could you impede the question please question all tie what i will rephrase the question. On the date at the action you guys were intending to interview 12 people oneou of whom was rob walker a business associate of hunter biden. And in particular you wanted to talk about and think the quote is held by h for the big guy. Who did you infer the big guy may be . All i can do is speak to the evidence. What i can say is i think i know what you arey referring to when we are preparing for that for theinterview and we are refg that email 10 held by h for the big guy and from what i understand that to be his dad President Biden. Im sorry i just want to ask mr. Shapley a similar question ausa wolf interjected in them reading from your transcript now and said she did not want to ask about the big guy and stated she did not want to ask questions about dad. Who did you take a dad to beat bewhen she refers to dad . The father of the subject is President Biden. Even by her response she is inferring joe biden may be involved in Hunter Bidens transactions. The new to the fbi agent and you give some detail mr. Shapley you give detail about what he is sick in the transcript if you will of his interview and in particular fbi agent asks mr. Walker you definitely got the feeling those orchestrated by hunter biden to have like in appearance by his dad at that meeting, just accountable so your chances of making the deal work out walker answered sure print fbi agent continued any time he was in the office or did you hear hunter biden say he was sitting up a meeting with his dad will dad was still in doffice . Walker answered yes. That is the quote that you gave in your transcript. I guess the question there is what did you infer . Then he said the fbi agent and explicitly says that line of questioning, i want to know what you thought the fbi agent was inferring . What did you think what did you think we heard that of the relationship between joe biden and hunter biden in his business transactions when he is still in office . I cannot go beyond what you have quoted me as saying in my testimony i will just leave it there. Okay thank you. Mr. Zigler on page 104 of yours you mentioned that mr. Biden, hunter biden attempted to obtain a business Tax Deduction on his return for hotel rooms that were used by his father, joe biden. Tell us about that please. On his tax return he deducted a hotel room for his dad. So joe biden. We actually got the invoice from the hotel that showed the dads name on it. That to be a valid business deduction he would have to be doing a business with hunter biden is that not true . We would typically, a typical part of the process would be to interview that person. To find out what might have happened. Why did you go to that hotel room . Based on statements he made in the book you can correlate to what was going on around that time. How does it become a valid business deduction if joe biden is there vacation . Generally speaking to be a valid business deduction had be some type of Business Activity time. Conducted at that the lesson is whatsapp. I wont get into ask her about out of time whatsapp said my dad sitting next to make you remember that page 105 you talk to mr. Ziegler page 105 your transcript for the question there is how would you be able to determine whether those roomo hunter biden how would you build to determine that . Is sometimes expired but please answer the question. To plug in that situation the application data. Contemporaneous data that would show her that persons outward that is what we typically look too. Thank you so much requested chart recognizes this leaf in pennsylvania for. Thank you republicans have been invoking this term to your system of justice a lot recently. I want to talk about what the real twotier Justice System is for black and brown people are over criminalize and over incarcerated june 20, chairman cover claims in a Committee Press release quote the department of justice is charging against President Bidens son hunter reveal a twotier system of justice. As you see or have seen from knockoff social media site President Trump is also use this phrase in connection with the hunter biden investigation. I would like to address the weight my republican colleagues are attempting to coopt the fridge twotier Justice System to make it sound like trump and his cronies aretr somehow when e reality is the term twotier system of justice was meant to refer to the dairy real system that exists in the United States which affect black and brown folks not powerful former president s and their political allies. The real twotier system of justice is one in which 2021 according to the d. O. J. Bureau of justice statistics the imprisonment rate for black men age 18 and 19 was 11. 6 times the rate of white males. The real twotier Justice System is one which 2021 according to those same statistics the imprisonment rate for native american males age 18 and 19 with 5. 1 times the rate for white males. The twotier Justice System is one in which according to may 2018 evidence brief and i quote black men comprise about 13 of the mail population but about 35 of those incarcerated. One in three black men born today can expect to bee incarcerated his lifetime. Compared to one in six latino men one in 17 white men. The twotier Justice System is one in which an analysis of nearly 100 millionon traffics os across this country found black drivers about 20 more likely to be stopped than white drivers. My republican colleagues seem to think using criminal law as a weapon or a Political Tool is objectionable only when directed against someone who should be out of reach of the criminal system. Some went to rich, too powerful or too white to be charged. Face it that same system has been used as a weapon and a Political Tool into black people since the emancipation proclamation. These Racial Disparities are rooted in a twotiered view on race. The belief that black people were inferior. Trade to justify the enslavement of black people which is now evolved into include the belief black people are more prone to criminality. During the decades of lynchings that followed enslavement white people defended the torture and the murder of black people as necessary to protect property, families and a way of life from black criminals. In 1980s nixons war on crime of all the into reagans war on drugs was harsher and more frequent punishment and the start of mass incarceration. Both cases it was a black people who were targeted and suffered under those policies. There is a reason point say that sing overwhelmingly impacting people of color. Most importantly, black people, who make up less than 11 of the the population of pennsylvania more than 65 of those serving life without parole in 58 serving nonlife sentences of 20 years or longer how many years have our elected judges ran out of tough on crime approach. . Even now republicans say that the party of law order into the same breath claiming that donald trump should not be prosecuted. Dont get it twisted. Republican efforts to use the term twotier justice is to distract from those who are truly the victims of a disparate treatment and are coming to Justice System and whether we say it out loud or not we all know who those people are. I yield the remainder of my time to the Ranking Member. Thank you for the eloquent statement. I wonder if you remember you might be too young for this there was a horrific assault again rape and central park, donald trump wrote ads in the New York Times saying central park suspect should be given the Death Penalty and they turned out to bee completely innocent. That is to reinforce your point, there is a history of profound racism in the criminal Justice System and the rhetoric around it and something pointing to a colleague with prostituting the critique of the system as twotiered on behalf of donald trump. I yield back to you. The chair recognizes from wisconsin. Thank you for holding this important hearing. I found it interesting the 12 witnesses, the fbi and the irs wanted to interview on december 8, 2020 including hunter biden they onlyb got one interview that was rob walker a friend of the biden family Robinson Walker llc said millions of dollars toll the bidens originated in romania and china. President biden said his family did not receive money from china but that was not true. According to your testimony before the ways and means on page 18 on december 3, 2020 did you have a long meeting with the Prosecution Team at the u. S. Attorneys office in delaware . That is correct december 3, 2020. Is it true attorney weiss was in and out of the meeting. That is true. During the meeting did you thshare your plan to interview Hunter Bidens associate rob walker . All the interview outlines for the witnesses were discussed that day. And you wanted to question walker about the emails held by each by the big guys, is that correct. That was included in the interview outline. U. S. Attorney leslie wolf said she did not want you to ask questions about dad, joe biden is that correct . That is correct. Assistant u. S. Attorney general wolf was conceding with the big guy was joe biden do you think thats accurate . I dont want to conclude what she wasn thinking. Okay. You did have an interview with rob walker in arkansas, correct . I did not by age instead. Yes. Did rob walker tell you President Biden never showed up to a meeting with his sons businessss associates . He told us he had shown up at the meeting. You elaborate on that at all. I can only stick to whats in the transcript and the witness described in incidents were cfc executives were people meeting and for seasons and the subjects father President Biden showed up at that meeting. President biden was there physically questioning. Thats for the witness, yes. Maybe im going back a little further but earlier today you wanted to elaborate on what of your questions if you were cut off by one of the democratic congressman is there anything that you want to say that you were able too say . I appreciate that. I wanted to say one thing that was mentioned regarding the retired fbi supervisor and special agent i have recently reached out to some of my former colleagues that i worked with the investigation were that the fbi and i asked them was there anything i misstated in my transcript and they said no from the understanding of reading it. I want to be clear on that they read my transcript or reference thatat they did and they said ty did not see any issues of what i said in my transcript. Thank you, anything else from you . I want to speak briefly about our criminal tax attorney, first the only advisory in i recall an instance where they are not concurred with any of my actions withinti the group and that we d not send it forward anyway with the Senior Leadership approval. The issue was the manner in which it became a non concur, the ct attorney who took more than 50 days to review all the evidence, she concurred with all the charges and the prosecution report exhibit two and a panel of five lawyers asked the National Office of criminal tax attorneys, they concurred with the line attorneys assessment and all the charges recommended. It then went to the Senior Leadership at ct counsel in the top said you need to change this to a non concur. Even Something Like that could happen inun practice. The issue here, i contacted line attorney managers in the area counsel and we didnt know this is going to be a non concur she said is going to be a concur and she told us it had always been a non concur basically hockey skating the entire event at the senior level at a table agreed withth the law and recommending those charges. I dont know why ct counsel would lie to us or provide false information about it being non concur of the whole time and special agent ziegler has communication with the line attorney and said do you know its always been a non concur and she said no i sent a yellow light which is a concur. That was the issue ct counsel that complexly and thats something i wanted to add to the congressman back there. Thank you for the extra time. Thank you with regard what happened in central park, the mischaracterization of what happened there im sure is very hurtful and harmful to the central park and theres more to that story. Thank you. At the request off the witnesses we are going to take two more questioners and a ten minute recess. Period right now the chair recognizing for five minutes. It is clear democrats are pro accountability, equal treatment under the law and for paying your taxes in the hunter biden case we have heard trump appointed u. S. Attorney took the extensive work of the irs investigation and got the penalty what he thought was possible and he was held accountable. And theres so many millionaires and billionaires and Big Corporations that are never held accountable fororre tax evasiond they are shielding by the gop majority. Republicans are not interested in that accountability, instead theyre interested trying their hardest to embarrass the president and preventer government from operating should. If republicans were truly interested in holding the poweru accountable we would hold hearings making sure the irs hai the resources to investigate every billionaire and every Big Corporation who cheats on the taxes. Instead the first bill that i voted on, the first bill brought forward by theby republican majority was to funding dedicated to the irs in order to chase down billionaire tax chief. That wouldve brought us more revenue if we spend money on the irs to chase down to bring more revenue to the United States and reduce our deficit and improve programs for the American People. The 2021 Treasury Department found the wealthiest 1 mayos more than 160 billion in uncollected taxes according to the New York Times tax compliant rates are high Tax Compliance are high for low and middle income workers who have their taxes deducted automatically fromfo their paychecks, the rich are able to have accounting loopholes to shield their tax liabilities. I would liketo to reiterate. Low and middle income americans have high Tax Compliance rates, they pay their taxes its very wealthiest and the biggest corporations who refuse to pay the pair share and rigged the system in d. C. In their favor. Im interested whether you can commit in short order to holdin a hearing about holding billionaires and Big Corporations accountable for evadingun their taxes. Think this could be a bipartisan hearing and result in big reduction to the deficit and if we have interest in holding folks accountable on tax evasion i think we should look at the biggest fish we can across thehe board. We are starting here today. We are having a hearing about accountability but what i want to know folks have cut billions of dollars in order to let folks off the hook and i would be interested if we can have a hearing that the irs has lost thousands employees including those withsa sophisticated skils it used to be 41000 audits happen a year for millionaires that was ten years ago but fiscal year 2020 the irs only audited 11 billion returns. Only 7100 of those returns were audited by government agents the most highly qualified auditors. I wanted no can we have a hearing this is something we can all get behind have any hearing about billionaires and Big Corporations att largescale potentiallyy getting away from the latest reports were talking about 160 billion in uncollected taxes. I would like to see whether there may be anre interest with everybody on that side of the aisle. Any interest . I have over a minute of time. Mr. Sessions that would be great. That would be a good hearing for us. We want everybody to follow the law. Withth that i yield back my time to the minke member. We will yield to the gentleman. I appreciate the gentleman to texas for yielding. I wouldve forget october 7 meeting in just a minute we have, you are familiar with october 6 Washington Post story federal agency tax case against hunter biden, as i write. The meeting occurred october 7 the day after this. Was this article discussed at the meeting. It was. What was the nature of the discussion . It is in the document that says its pretty clear that this was a leak to the Washington Post by Law Enforcement agents since it describes what federal agents believe. It was not clear to me that it was because usually they will say the Law Enforcement that provided it and if you see in the bottom it says they collaborated independently and did not mention Law Enforcement. You dont think its a federal agent that leaked this when the headline says federal agents see chargeable case against hunter biden. The gentleman times is expired but feel free to answer the question. Prior to that if you go back to december 2020 there was another leak to the Washington Post that we had to get the department of justice yg involved, other leaks that happened prior to this to the Washington Post that i think are important for us to understand and that situation. They had similar information. The chair recognizes mr. Donalds from florida. Thank you, mr. Chairman, thinking for beingn. Here today. I would get right to because we have a lot to cover. Mr. Ziegler you are the agent the output of this investigation. From your transcript, page 17 what it says you were investigating the social Media Company and through the process of that investigation you found out hunter biden was paying potentially prosecutions and a potential prostitution ring. That is correct. You also say the beginning phases of the investigation of bank reports there was evidence he was living lavishly through his Corporate Bank account, is that correct. When i say him i mean hunter biden. A question for you and mr. Shapely. Is there a clear lie a potential investigation if somebody is charging up massive Living Expenses through a corporate account and not doing that through their own personal account and accounting on their income tax or turning is that the basis of a criminal investigation. That would be factors of a. Criminalal investigation. Let me ask question there was reference to the whats app text gemessage referring to and everybody knows, tell the chairman to give me my money because we remember and were not going to forget were the bindings we have all these connections. We all know the text message now. Mr. Ziegler on page 105 you stay i know we want to get location data because i went to the prosecutors with this and they came back, how do we know that. He could be lying and claiming that joe biden was there and dad wwas not there. Were you allowed to get location data dealing with the whatsapp text message . From my memory in the notes that were taken, i never obtain location data regarding that message. Maria did the ausa in delaware say look at the text message lets figure out the location data and figure out where huntea biden was with the sent message. Was she excited about this as a prosecutor . When i asked her about the location data it was her responded with how do we know that, lets try to figure that out. How do we know that. Did she read the text message. If i read that as a prosecutor i say wait a minute dad is sitting next to him and happens to be the Vice President of the United States, should we find out where hunter biden was when he sent the text message. Im not a prosecutor im a finance guy but that seems like to me. Sense the previous email ten held by each by the big guy, yet the two things correlated with each other as a normal process or procedure that we would go through. You would want to figure out is the information truthful. I totally agree which is why the view of members on this committee and a lot of americans at this point that there are elements of the department of justice who did not want the information out and did not want to go down the line going to the evidence of gathering process to proceed the death of this International Pay for play scheme that was happening around joe biden going through hunter biden and all the money the biden family was occurring thats just a statement from me. Through your investigation how much money did you uncover coming from ukraine, romania and china . If you hold on one second let me references 17. 3 million approximately. 17. 3 million through your investigation and you and mr. Shapely are the guys that investigate criminal tax evasion on the international scale, is that correct. That is correct. Question for the chairman. Through the investigation of the Oversight Committee how much money have we seen come from ukraine romania and china. Over 10 million. We have two separate investigations. One done by the Investigative Branch of the irs that is charged with doing these investigations. These are the people that you want doing the in independent investigation by the Oversight Committee. Were coming up with the same about of money ever take a couple of million going to the same person as hunter biden and his investigation is slow walked and were supposed to sit here and say joe biden knows nothing. I think for the record the Relevant Committee needs some questions for leslie wolf, the ausa of delaware for david weiss, the attorney general of delaware, the Deputy Attorney generalr all in Merrick Garland the attorney general of the United States. If this action is allowed to occur in investigations are slow walked with this level of detail this is not donald trump, these are facts. I yield back. Thank you, great job and i will add we just got bank records from ukraine. Will be going through that. At the request of the witnesses we are going to recess for ten minutes and then we will probably reconvene