What you see in every country is more of this type of social intervention then we do here. If anything we move closer to some of that. At least when it comes, as robert was saying, to some of the programs that work. I that work. I think this is a positive thing. The child tax cut a, the earned income tax credit. In part because we recognize that it is bringing a political view and in part because it is bring confidence to americans to consider work and people who are [inaudible] these programs have to work to be nonporous seems fair that others should have to work as well. That is a general mindset. So, that is why at the end of the day i say if we are going to solve some of these problems, and i agree with charles that there are a lot of guys ought to be working who are not. We are to guarantee them a job. In fact. In fact, during the recession, during the recovery act we had a program, subsidized job program, we subsidize wages to the tune of 80 or 90 of the ef program, we subsidize wages in private or Public Sector jobs in the tomb of 80 or 90 Unemployed People and i thought it was a successful program. We. Weve come to the end of the time. I will close by saying that any urine which has been characterized by credible polarization, when people people have disagreed with each other it has been assumed, must hate each other, think jerrod and i have done a terrific job. [applause] [inaudible] [inaudible] cspan, created by americas Cable Television companies are brought to you by a Public Public service by your cable or satellite provider. Professor gerald, and your book a counter revolution of 1776, youre right, as the 21st century proceeds, one point is evident, the heroic a creation of the founding of the u. S. Is desperately in need of revision. What does that mean . What it means is that to the historians by and large have not done a very good job of talking about the founding of the United States of america which is striking is in history departments from the atlantic to the pacific you have specialist to create critique the revolutions, but those who critique 1776 are few and far between. Thats despite the fact that after the founding of the United States america you had more land taken from native americans clearly which met that 1776 was not necessarily a step form to the indigenous population. Then population. Then by the 1790s you had the United States as i noted in the book had taken over the controls of the slave trade in africa to cuba and by the 1840s as i said in my book the deep south after the slave trade they had taken control of the slave trade to brazil. So, it seems to me that minimally one can say that 7076 was not a greatly people forward for africans nor was it a grape great leap forward for the indigenous population. It was for many europeans to be sure. But, europeans as we will know do not comprise the entire humanity. I think what it set in motion was what we are seen in 2016, that is to say, with 1776 you had the progressive expropriation of land from the indigenous population and then that land was parceled out, oftentimes to europeans fresh off of the boat which help solidify across Class Coalition between poor europeans and more fluent europeans at the expense of the indigenous population. Of course the africans within stock that land as an slave in labor and in 2016 what skin you see a a cross Class Coalition of the republican side between the europeans of various class backgrounds. And for those who say, who think make America Great again fundamentally means make America White again, they they have a point to be made. Part of the problem is since we not had a critique of 1776 to six to the extent it deserves on it becomes difficult to understand the present. If you go to a dr. To have an illness one of the first things the dr. Will do is take a medical history, hopefully you will provide an accurate medical history that will allow the dr. To make a diagnosis and a prognosis with regard to your future wellbeing. We have not had an adequate history it seems to me of the founding, that makes it very difficult to understand the past one and in your book you write, the u. S. Had been founded on the principle of White Supremacy. Guest it goes back to what i said a moment ago. That is to say that in some ways if you look at 1776 and six and this is what i tell my students when i teach these undergraduates and introduction to africanamerican studies, that it is fair to say that 1776 in the u. S. Constitution did represent a step forward in terms of religious liberty. To to that point of course religious wars had been racking europe in particular. Protestant london with the catholic power, france and spain. Portuguese also being predominantly catholic. What happens with 1776 and i argue that i argue that in order to widen the base of support for the republican project in north america, the socalled democratic project in north america, there is a step forward in terms of religious liberty. This allowed the settler here to widen their base support against the clown in london. Therefore it is fair to say the settlers in north america led by George Washington would not prevail set for the assistance of france. This leads to the First Amendment guarantee and religiously ready. With that we know that anticatholicism prevailed in the 19th century, the burning of comments, we know that anticatholicism prevailed know that anti catholicism prevailed a century ago with the rise of the second of the ku klux klan. And also steps forward in regards to antijewish fervor and even in 2016 that particular beast continues to raise its ugly head. But generally speaking 1776 was a step forward for religious liberty because historians miss for religious liberty because historians miss the flip side of the coin. That the socalled republican project did mean that religion took a step backwards. It also meant that monarchy took a step backwards. But substituted for the aristocracy of ancestry and heritage, and lineage, as was prevalent in london, you have to add aristocracy of race quite frankly which the country still wrestling with. In fact you can make the argument and i have, that project of aristocracy of race did not begin to retreat until the 20th century with the rise of the class project. The rise of thriving trade unions, the rise of socialist countries and National Liberation movements etc. This may begin to give assistance to those who are suffering under the lash of racism of White Supremacy which forced a retreat in 1954 with the brown versus board of education decision. In the 1964 with 64 with Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights act. As that International Assistance and pressure began to wither in the latter part of the 20th century and the first decade or so in the 21st century you begin to see a reassertion of some of these uglier aspects of White Supremacys is represented with this incredible please shootings in san diego, tulsa, chicago, milwaukee, the list is too much to mention. Part of the dilemma with the black community in particular was that as a result of brown versus board of education and the retreat of white the premises, a tradeoff was made. That is to say the more international as leader of the black community who are willing to make these global alliances were marginalized, isolated, demonized, et cetera. So now it is said repeatedly whenever there is a microphone in my face, and 2016 despite the fact that you have these major crises, ukraine, north korea, syria, to mention a few, there are few black intellectuals and leaders that have anything credible or meaningful to say despite the fact that any of those crises inevitably, or perhaps inevitably could lead to something worse. Up to and including extension perhaps. So this is this is where we stand in 2016. Host doctor horn, 2,500,000 people resided in the u. S. In 1776. What was the role of african americans, of slaves the role of africanamericans, of slaves during the revolution, if any . Well, we told in our classrooms who somewhat have that he was the first person to lay down his life for liberty photo. Although he is defined as black, another country may have been defined as native american given his ancestry. But that we are not told of course generally speaking is about the africans who fought against the founding of the United States. I was just watching the second part of roots, called the first version came out back based on the book in the 1970s and took the nation by storm. I was watching the second version which just came out this year. They do a credible effort in terms of trying to illustrate the last point that i just made that is to say that since britain was on a faster track of abolition of slavery the black population had reason to believe that their interest would be better served if the settlers were defeated. Thats thats a difficult point for people in the United States to grapple with. I might also say that there is another tv miniseries that you can find easily, i wont mention the sources, but bet television and the canadian South African production they do the best job yet in terms of film and cinema, in terms of presenting an accurate betrayal of the black role during the 1776 war. In any case, enslaved africans were bonded laborers and that tells a story if youre trying to understand 1776 you six you should try to understand 1688. And that was in england where the wings of the monarch are clipped by the rising merchant class. To that point the World African company which had been under the son of the monarch was the major force in terms of the african slave trade. With the clipping of the wings of the monarch there was a deregulation if you would like, of the african slave trade. And merchants to numerous to mention were able to enter the commerce, feeling too africa, and handcuffing every. [inaudible] dragging them across the atlantic to work in the tobacco field. Of course in the caribbean which up until the 18th century they thought was more valuable to the north american mainland. Of course the story should be told in terms of 1776 in conjunction with the caribbean because the africans outnumbered the europeans sometimes at the rate of 10 1 or 20 1 leaving Fertile Ground to the rise of favorables which is not only jeopardizing the investments but jeopardizing the lives of the slaveowners and their families. This of course leads to some kind of retreatment on the mainland where the ratio is a much more favorable to slavery. That does not necessarily save the settlers because in 1779 have a revolt in a 1712 you have a 12 you have a revolt in the manhattan. O 1739 South Carolina spearheaded by who cannot only speak portuguese but many were roman catholic. They were trying trying to get the spanish florida, florida at that time was controlled by spain. There is a direct collaboration between spain and the enslaved africans in South Carolina to overthrow the settler class in South Carolina. So so what happens 51776 1770 was the spanishamerican war. Theyre going to suggest that the french were assisting in manhattan in 1712. That is a very successful effort, the 77 years war. You know that today as we speak, canada, Quebec Quebec in particular has predominantly f french speaking population. Even, london prevails, they want to tax the settlers because the war has been to their benefit and this is a traditional narrative kicks in. The settlers did not want to pay the taxes which is a familiar scene in washington d. C. To this day. That leads to the revolt againss ritters rules in collaboration with the french in particular against want and which brings u. Back to the constitution and religious liberty of the First Amendment, et cetera. Host who was lord dunmore and what was his role in the revolution . Guest lord dunmore, i was at a conference in new york about a year ago and a leading historian started out making what he thought was a cynical commentore about the pair between lord dunmore, the last British Colonial governor in virginia in 1775 and Abraham Lincoln. He thought it was a cynical comment i thought comment i thought he was going to Say Something i agreed with. That is to say lord dunmore was very upset shall we say with the fact that settlers led by George Washington and Thomas Jefferson wanted to overthrow british rule in virginia and north america generally. So he tried to cut a deal with the africans. This was represented in second version of roots that i was making reference to. And the turn for liberty or the enslaved, they would fights with the redcoats. This is not when dunmore amongst the settlers to put it mildly he became notoriouslylymi unpopular. But this leading historian when he was trying what he thought was a parallel between lord dunmore and Abraham Lincoln i think he was making a pointur unintentionally which is the emancipation proclamation, to 13 january 1, 1863, in some measure as i say in my book was a military measure. Enl in terms of trying to free the enslaved population that the United States does not have jurisdiction over its the Confederate States of america, that was a turning point for the war. It allows for the enlistment of more black soldiers as depicted in the film glory. Y. And then the the u. S. Couldver e prevail over it did not work in 1775 for various reasons including the fact that theres criticism of lord dunmore that he didnt go for enough. That that he should have been trying to offer a freedom of the enslaved loyalists. Those that did not defect from that union, from london, but in any case lord dunmore is a very important figure in the foundation of the United States of america. If you were to write a general history book for schoolkids today what would be the first line in that book . Guest im not sure. But im giving a talk in a few days at the association for the study of africanamerican life and history founded by woodson, a, leading black historian over a century ago. In that talk i amce taking off n important seminar that was held in washington d. C. In may 2016. In the runup when it was first initiated to the opening of the National AfricanAmerican Museum in washington which has publicity for understandable reasons. At that seminar in washington in may 1 leading historian asks, number of historians asks if we need a new interpretive for the framework. One historian said, it is fromor slavery to freedom popularized by franklin is that still ae valid framework or august and elliot, from plantation to ghetto. Another said what we need is a new interpretive framework for u. S. History. So what im going to sandof richmond and a few days and the answer to that question is yes, it should be from settler colonialism to u. S. Imperialism. As i tell this audience, thattco will allow to incorporate more effectively the present dayy diversity of the black American Population in houston for example, where i teach, the black American Population has been enriched by immigrants from nigeria. People think of a basketball i star who goes on to perform with the Houston Rockets and in new york city for example for at least a century if not longer. There has been a title wave of migrants from jamaica, t, barbados and miami. A significant number number black population has roots in haiti. For various reasons the traditional narratives on and able to account for their diverse city. That is why thinkh we need this new interpretiveat framework so that we can account for the actual reality on the ground. Of the l host you mentioned earlier Paul Robinson from your new book, paul robison the artist is revolutionary, youre right, you cannot fully appreciate how the jim crow system came to an end without an understanding of the life of Paul Robinson. Robinson pioneered the struggle against jim crow throughout the 30s and 40s. Guest that is true. Despite the the fact that i wrote it. That is to stay that Paul Robinson, black american born born in new jersey in 1988 passing away of philadelphia in 1976, leading scholar as an undergraduate of rockers university where he starts in the gridiron at stars as a baseball catcher. He leaves there and goes to Columbia University graduates. He was on the fast track of becoming a lawyer but is diverted, although i should say that he also was an early performer and professional football. His career is diverted and he stumbles into performing. Becomes a leading actor, a kindr of precursor of denzel washington, and will smith if you like. Not only like. Not only on the screen but also on stage, a fellow is his signature role. A good deal of his stardom is created in london where he lives in the early 1920s into theti late 1930s with intermittent e theres a digression we could engage in now and how so many black americans over the decades and centuries have been treated much better abroad than in the place of their birth which leads to themselves for living overseas. But a turning turning point comes when he visits newly fascist germany in the early 1930s and comes facetoface with the rising tide of fascism. He also goes on to moscow where he encounters another black lawyer, William Paterson who i wrote a biography about a few years ago who graduated from law school and the university of california. Now the hasting schools of law in San Francisco. And and ofun course attempted undergraduate School Berkeley where i attendel law school. William paterson have become an early member of the u. S. Communist party, he had gone to moscow to be trained as a professional revolutionary andti spoke some russian. He convinces robison that he should devote more of his time and energy to the cause of the people. This is is in the context of scottsboro case, the subject book that i wrote versus alabama. I mentioned that of course shortly, but in any case Paul Robinson is convinced that he should spend more time in the United States of america, facilitating that is the onset of world war ii in europe in bee 1939. He has reason to believe that h and his family may be trapped in london, you know that london was bombed repeatedly by the german fascists during world war ii and people were sleeping in subways, etc. So he returns to the United States, helps to convince black americans they should throw in their luck with United States and the antifascist costs, that the antifascist costs, that is not necessarily slamdunk proposition because writing a book that will be published next year called facing the rising sun, africanamericans, africanamericans, japan and the rise of africanamerican salt identity and talks about the black america. In fact in this book i talk about how in november, 1942 in east st. Louis illinois, across the Mississippi River from my hometown of st. Louis you have black americans in military uniforms growing in anticipation of a Japanese Invasion of north america. Thats a kind of sentiment that paul robison had to overcome which he successfully does convincing black americans that they should make the ultimate sacrifice to help the rest of thesh United States, but no good deed goes unpunished. So after world war ii, japan defeated as the result of the atomic bombing in 1945, paul robison, who was a socialist thought to be a communist is persecuted and demonized, his income falls from the six figures to the four figures, his passport is taken so he cannot travel abroad to make a living. A living. But he is still dishing out blows despite the blows that he is absorbing. 19501951 they file a petition with United Nations charging the United States with genocide against black people. The reference in the Washington Post a few days ago said that because of the racial terrorism among black americans that they deserve reparation for the mistreatment they have absorbedt over the years. This genocide petition is translated into numerous languages and heard all over the world, but this does not necessarily earn anything ingto. Washington. He is repeatedly and patersons jail. Paul robison is not jailed but his income plummets. Finally a movement leads to the return of robisons passport and he immediately recounts to london and stars in othello. Und but by 1965, not only is his Health Deteriorating but his wife had passed away so he returns to the United States and becomes a recluse. And to that hed thats until hh passes away. I mentioned in the book is alluded by the rising civil rights movement, clutter to scott king. Theyre all very praiseworthy, if you like a paul robison. Although he is more controversial in other circles. But, as, as i say in the last paragraph of that book, there are those who would suggest that the figure of stalin, the former leader in moscow for 30 years discredits the idea of socialism for all times and in fact the robison project. If thats the case what is the african slave trade discredit capitalism for all time, why the double standard . Until until we unraveled these knots i think will be wondering. Guest you said that to be a communist, was it illegal to be a communist in the u. S. . 1949, when another comrade, ben davis junior, a black man born in atlanta, his father was a been a member of the Republican Party. One of the most affluent black americans in the United States. Ben davis junior went to Amherst College and Harvard Law School and joined the communist party in the early 1930s and was elected to the new york city council, 1941. 1943, reelected night and 45 before unceremoniously, perhaps illegally in 1949 and put on trial. And some days that effectively illegalize and even if that is not a technically accurate assertion, certainly it is fair to say that the persecution of those who have advocated for socialism in the United States has left the continuing shadow over this country. That is why i am very appreciative of the campaigner bernie senator sanders of vermont who in a long way towards helping to detoxify the concept of socialism and clarify the concept of socialism in the process of attracting many millennia else, that is to say u. S. Spoke under the age of 35. But in any case, there is still an uphill climb with regard to the process that Bernie Sanders did so much to assess. He was the biographer and the pulitzer prize. I was part of his cohort, radical democrat. I exit the term socialist as well. I accept the term antifascist. I identify with that movement. Your producers asked me before this program that people life find inspiring. I listed the leader of the south African Communist Party and the congress of south africa with Nelson Mandela if you except the elite and glowed dutch historian and one of his books they have been coopted to the Central Committee and there is an interview that the university of connecticuts. And in cellblock seven or number five in may has been the rivers for what they have written picasso the great irish writer, the at t then being called a communist. There seems to be a confluence of the causes an africanamerican . To make thats true but lately i have been riding more about slavery. But in some ways is more difficult to write about slavery in the United States and to write about communist. I think that is because slavery happened here ended is a very difficult question for people to grapple with and to reconcile the narrative of the United States of this gruesome dirty story of what happened in africa. So they tried to glide past that but the communist including the fact that book about hawaii of labor unions , i cannot remember the subtitle. I talk about marshalled davis who launched the of logs that were too numerous to mention. And they were very closely associated with the communist party that was the most successful communist party under the flag boarding kansas came to prominence in chicago before moving to honolulu said to forever live in infamy. Iv and their key he comes to mentor a young man because the simple fact leads them to suggest a president of the United States moving to the white house to recap it but as i say in the book look at Honolulu Hawaii with less influence and the u. S. Flag been stated that was at the vanguard for the womans right to choose and the labor union protection. This was due in no small measure to the unions headquartered in severance cisco and he may recall was the key to being communist and borne and australia migrates to San Francisco where he leads the strike then begins to unionize the island of honolulu to convert those white supremacist what is become the most progressive force under the u. S. Flag that is the kind of story that iso read about and talk about. And let me cross source. I would really like to write more about hawaii it is they car Pleasant Place to research any callers or listeners if you have a project that will take back to hawaii please kincaid that to be. Sooner rather than later. Host this is our monthly in depth programmer we invite one bothered to talk about his serve body of work this month is professor gerald horne from university of houston and here is a partial list of his currentst 31 books. Race of women. Canno came out to dallas in. Class struggle in hollywood. 2001. Race wars, a 2003. Black and brown, 2005. 200 w. E. B. Du bois six years ago. T6 we have discussed that briefly 2014. T6. Race to revolution also can tell that year and last year confronting black jacobins and finally his most recent book is paul robeson the artist asbe revolutionary this is your chance to talk with professor gerald horne. Guest the scottsboro case that i write about and it also talk about in my biography of William Paterson. As i tell the story is the turning point in the history of the struggle against u. S. Jim crow apartheid. Nine black youths arrested for sexually molesting two american women on the fast track in alabama to be executed by the state. As so many black americans before and sense to be accused falsely of a crime but William Paterson intervened with labor defense to be energized by the u. S. Communist Party Assisted by moscow. Cow to help to organize the International Campaign but what happens is that the International Pressure with those egregious and horrible aspects with uh demonstrations with the consulate all over though world. And actually favored cubans protesting that leads to Important Supreme Court presence with regard to the right to trial by jury. The u. S. Supreme Court Precedents is utilized this very day. So the scottsboro case is the preludin talking about brown vs. Board of education although although the d difference from the 30s and in the 50s that mighton the d patterson and robison ron the defense and the fact that they would accuse moscow of humanrightsri violations they founded difficult to do so well as long as jim crow was permanently a part of the discussion of the United States of america this creates a dynamic been that the leadership at that time more internationally connected as the robeson and pattersons could not take advantage of those favorableet objective conditions. La highly important case written about numerous times and it deserves all of the attention. Host was it widely publicized quick. Absolutely. In fact, it was a global case. There is a Book University press published of the international aspect. It was very embarrassing to the United States america because you open the door and it was call jim crow. Separate schools to be sworn in the courtroom. To make it illegal for black and white people to look out of the same window. And to the leaders to come to the conclusion that jim crow should be reduced if not eroded. Inte but the leaders have a deficit that if you look at sports, i am also looking to write a book on baseball. Before the advent of Jackie Robinson 1946, or the explosion of the dominican players hitting the diamond in 2016, you could have a one armed outfielder play for the browns because of jim crow. So you allow these competent latinos and black americans to come on there is an much room for the 01 arm outfielder. So when they make thate argument, and with Jackie Robinson entering baseball, in allowed majorleague baseball to flourish. That is true. Starting in San Francisco and los angeles. Were the players and thentr the cents a and also with those intellectuals in leaders to be resistant of desegregation in 1957 were they were deploying federal troops with oxford mississippi from a few weeks ago. Federal troops had to be deployed to desegregate mississippi. So to show that this is not just limited to the violence and the upper is significant as the black american of basketball star. Or is 1980s and 1990s that the housing desegregation it was depicted and to be played that is a good idea to move away from jim crow and desegregation. So when donald trump rises he has no support. In expressing surprise with anybody. And with the history of this country or the reality. But the friends on the leftnew k end to his credit introduce the concept . That comes from a liberal . With the conservative l. A. Times columnist talking about white identity politics. Lot that doesnt come left from liberalism. But one of the picture bu one of the problems and with that analysis some people i dont think even read the newspapers every day. If anybody is serious about politics but in any case. Host where did the term jim crow come from . Guest a very popularm Performance Art in the United States in the 19th century. It involved white americans initiating in a derisive fashion black americans how they acted. In leads to the black face. And of the of blackface is making a comeback in australia which is interesting. And a semi comeback here. Not strong but jim crow iss now this is enough for apartheid of separate but equal with a separate court room, preschools, the legacy of colleges and universities in some ways it is right i across the street from the university of houston. Very stark legacy of the jim crow era. Host when you go to the Ivy League School in the 60s and being black causes you to want to join the ruling elite or rebel against them. I fell into this second category other than the real news network. Right. Of course, as people oftenof time say, you are fighting not only for the flag but that buddy of yours in the foxhole. I met some very good friends and they have a good thing going. Very i and that is why they were able to raise so much money because there is that attachment because of your experiences. Often times it was said if there was a search for bids on did before he was killed. If not it would not have sent him fundraising letters all the time. [laughter] it was a good experience in terms of politics because i was involved with the Divestment Movement and is undergraduates we were protesting the corporations that have invested inty apartheid africana and the occupying of buildings. I recall helping to raise money for those students that were poured to the driver was killed whiletu driving to a fundraiser to distribute the money in philadelphia. Ey wer but then trying to do well, although i must say i was in the classroom in princeton. Listening to the teacher and lecturing. To sap will go to your. Ashingto and now all these places to do research that was not doing that as an undergraduate at princeton. So i have to say i have a deep inexperience. This is a very good question. So this gets us back to the research that darrin is to di pressure to desegregate. Coming from on high to desegregate. So princeton begins to seek out people like myself and as it turns out i did not know that much. I was reading newspapers. I was 67 years old. And admittedly the comic strips from the sports page. Because i was reading that a with the basketball start to the highest stratosphere and was from crystal city misery. Missouri even though i was not on the Basketball Team but then they were coming knocking on my door to apply. And here i am. M. Host what did your parents do . Guest my father was a truck driver. My sisters would like me to say that my mother was a homemaker and that is true but certainly i recall her working as a maid i have the distinct memory of that. But my mother and my father abused, it is the of part of the documents. Cr i grew up with stories ofe mississippi. My mother would say dont tell me nothing about mississippi. Would hear about having to get off of the sidewalk if the whitesec were coming down. Or how of the gutter. Just these Horror Stories ive was very nervous and apprehensive to go to mississippi for the longdistance have relatives there i have never bet on met. I have gone to oxford for research but i dont visit as often as they should. I know that it is not realistic with the attitudes but it is buried in my consciousness. As a truck driver he was under the Teamsters Union that used to bill itself of Largest Union at only in the United States but in the county and i would read their publication and subsequently i was fascinated because the teamsters were justifiably known for corruption. But the other was a social democrat and those teamsters that is the working class. And then to develop this of specialty. Host in the argot of u. S. History how significant is the 2008 election . Very significant. It is true that many overstated the case. Erstate the atm of a post Racial Society was a clear overstatement but given the u. S. Torturous past in this earth shattering that a black president was elected. Although there is a long signal with the diverse origins of black america. To put forth the idea that there has banned a special persecution of the defendants of enslaved africans in north america. That isnt to say that they dont come as the background that i cannot wait to read the literature because i am sure we will read even more the disrespect for very think it has for policy consequences to have these powerful elements dont respect them the why should like quicks so i dont thinkvi it is accidental the first president that is black was from the immigrant background as opposed to the descendants of the slave african. For example, angela davis was in birmingham alabama. So to try to be paid the friction of jim crow, they would not see her. I am writing a book and he talks about how he has an escape. Serious not perceive is a descendant of the african. Or lo lee brown from newark teachers eight new jersey but he feels if he takes the name he will not be a descendant of the slaves of africa. S from t black america masquerading as prince and all different ways but of course, i wrote a book about passing that went on to be the leader of u. S. Fascism. And he is very cultured which help to alleviate the of reality he was born jim crow atlanta. And crosses the color line. 2008 was no doubt a turning point but although it wasd david axelrod. In the largest and just as that is a counter reaction to george w. Bush with the cowboys Foreign Policy with the ways and then leading tona the reaction of the rise of donald trump. Host professor gerald horne as donna city college in new york, uc santa barbara, university of zimbabwe, eight chapel hillchapl hill, university of hong kong and now at the university of houston and went on to get his law degree at ucberkeleyerkeley, m investors and ph. D. From columbia. We have talked for onehour now wish to return. Phone numbers are on the screen. If you cannot get through on the phones try asocial media we will filter through those as well. Caller how are you today . I would like to ask can you explain but did not talk about the significance ofof the haitian revolution audion americans in the founding of the United States and that needs to be addressed. Al that is a pleasure. Thanks for the question i am always happy to talk about haiti and they are in my book confronting black jacobins but my major argument of the haitian revolution is a successful result to ignite a general crisis that can only be resolved and especially those that are descendants of the slaved africans have a true debt of gratitude to haiti that can never be repaid. That was a point not only made by be bad Frederick Douglass and even w. E. B. Du bois in hispaniola. But often times in france and the defeated colonial power so feeding directly to the limousine Louisiana Purchase to spain and the boundaries of the United States of america but then i mentioned that in my book because but that is the devil peseta often hidden american but in reaction to the day and are studying to play this land is european to. But in this land is your land that is part of colonialism. It but in any case the haitian revolution but they tried to post possible to say but the search the 1800s was another big revolution. N revolu pike for example, in barbados. But then inspired by thens haitian revolution. Off tonight have a foot note but that is ignited almost 40 years to the day after august 1791 with the haitian revolution. So that suggest the slave owners from hispaniola beo sent to virginia and many africans have historical memory panetta of horror and desperation birth of a nation i cannot wait to see i will be first in line when it opens. Host from counterparts you explain why nobody will stand for the National Anthem as a refusal toe answer given his background should that be the norm rather than the exception . Guest first of all it provides cover for those athletes who courageously protest the National Anthem of. Dict to but also even a member of the seattle seahawks. Of university of Nebraska Football Team protested that they were reprimanded and print to rebuke them. So for support for the youth that are courageously stepping forward. But there is some disturbing clerics in the third stanza of the National Anthem which by the way they will recall has not adopted the National Anthem. But the lyrics that specifically and pointedly pointedly, denounces the black population of coursebl it comes in the context of the war of 1812. So it should come as no surprise that many of the enslaved africans have a choice between the dirty shirt were the dirtier shirt of washington. Including august 1814 and including Bao Whitehouse one put to be one step ahead of those black americans who were in solidarity. Many of these wind up getting on ships and a ceiling to freedom in fact, that was giving a talk from those in the audience who said those negros who had fled from chesapeake. Interestingly enough that propaganda was a leading professor added Important University washington d. C. , just wrote the negros who sided with the british were we enslaved. But basically that shows you how potent the propaganda can be. In any case, the National Anthem, or many cases where apartheid was dismantled or defeated in the polls like in 1994, they adopted thee new National Anthem and you will see a discussion but to say america ed the beautiful and this land is your land but it can be very revealing but with the appointed and lyrics but they think all of the times the people have forgotten. Also the National Anthem reveals you had a certain to change that transformation. And then and then to accommodate them . Whether integration of women without transformation but we have not seen that type of integration one but then they forced their way in and then they jump to contemporary reality and mrs. And defense of Colin Kaepernick the quarterback in question, stalking with one of your assistance. He sho the coach of the fortyniners this not have a very good reputation with black athletes as the recordla shows. The record of the Philadelphia Inquirer whenin he was coaching the eagles. Second, Colin Kaepernick iss very intelligent reading about his tenure at the u. N. L. V. And he was part ofns the fraternity one of my older brother and i thinks but as long as it will be played by sean jackson m. Baldwin but he had designed special sneakers he will be wearing in protest to the game today. If they give us a cycle we should take it. Next call comes farm comes from mississippi. Caller i think you are right about the National Anthem being unnecessary. But my question was to you think the Republican Party is a defacto Naturalist Party has ever getting ready to embrace that role. That term nationalism is being revised. I find it striking that sidebar but in many ways they have been asleep at the switch. Our friends urging those of t the left not to vote for greed although we know that 51 different elections those who has the most votes will win and despite the fact they are not paying attention if they are curious or not. But johnson has been endorsed by the Chicago Tribune and a major detroit newspaper. He is pulling a 10 . Cent he talking about Social Security and medicare and medicaid but those on theth left are not clamoring against him but others in this seems like it is a misplaced priority. Back to the question, i think we needed deeper interrogation of the concept of white nationalism. But one of the most encouraging aspects of u. S. Academia in recent years was the rise of trying to ascertain how and why it was as they were on the shores of europe an english vs. French, irish, scots, german bears is british five vs. British and baird magically transformed the scholars paid attention to that butsc somehow in 2016 the lessons were lost that helps to weeks plane while they haveve not been easy to explain or come to grips with of places like coal country in virginia or kentucky and as i wrote recently, to torture the numbers with anybody supporting donald trump is his family. It is almost like the mythical french who says pledges it true in theory . Se and with regard to how election shin work itself out. Did them that disrupts the theories of the stick to that nonetheless. But we will now one november 8 whether not. Professor gerald horne and in your opinion with the free market schemes. I am not sure but apparently donald j. Trump in but the whole argument of climate change. Bellini a discussion. I think that if you look and tr try to examine why it is that theres so much animosity and antipathy toward government in the United States of america not please the federal government, make incredible argument it has to do withma the civil war. I do this with my students. And talking with their smart phones and theyre laptop but what happened to the slave owner perhaps one of the largest corporations in history up to that point. The bigger the dollar but without compensation they were taken. Impoverished. Did then because it is the antipathy to government. I will execute measures between china and the United States with climate change. I wouldnt agree with the European Union but i dont see how u. S. Cape the potential calamity without government involvement. This hostility to government is seems that were getting close speetwo the ideology. Caller greetings professor. I hope one day you come to ohio i am closely it hiking get you to sign. And my dictionary. I want you to sign that because your pros in is a labyrinth. But you share some of the technical but it is the precedent of 19 but the second question that the mandated in verbally as. To me, this. Caller but the myth is very constitution was written to his supporters to but it is just a plethora. Guest bat with regards to the paris transcripts and the New York Historical society in manhattance of slav particular the slavery from the glorious revolution of through the Early National period of the early 19th century is a very good source. But with the introduction of note that after i encountered might quit the New York Historical society and in manhattan of course, i have but then i go into a little anecdote of how but to guarantee that i live to fight another day and then made the analogy of the in hong kong but now the taxi driver is used to pick me a pen but they probablyey thought was a tourist to give them a 10. Dressed but but what impact would that have on the black condition of america . But in regard to difficulty with the archives the late historian you can talk about the difficulty he had. It hampers the ability of the tories historians to do their research which is why my generation should be the vanguard because we generally have access. With an episode at the university of washington seattle. But my a theory is the art of this is already always right. So i can understand. Finally i just left. So certainly that is not normal. They would not let me in to do my research but i will be visiting ohio some time next year. And fluid is he an interesting collection of mozambiques that wanted to consult. With the bottom modern muslim whos studied in the United States from mozambiques but i would visit there. I was there at the rock and roll hall of fame. A very good archive. E high but then to become fabulously affluent. I have archives. It sounds like you were working on a threeyear four books right now. What is your process quick. I guess is starts with the 80th and dash a guess the idea comes from conversation that you have with people. The 1776 book and it made no sense to turn intot something. Urn it i and i listen and all the time. Seball i but i am in touch with the archivist in coopers bill bill, but i am lacking in ideas. You have to come up with an idea and a story. I cannot make them up. I am not a novelist so i have to then you take notes. Of course, you have to have the adn that will write about. One of the reasons so many times i would take notes they dont write well. Said new fall that out tono the chapters. Host boulder colorado. Caller i have never called what better watch all lot and i have learned allies. I did notice an err earlier. Have a bike to discuss that but second a brief point about princess scott keys the author of the of star spangled banner the of the former chief justice . P. S. And that is another reason we should have another sign. I noticed that it will spread but they have both mispronounced the name robeson for greg representative and leftwing houseful ive met him when i was five years old. A wasted opportunity. Host pronounces it correctly. This two syllables robeson. Briefly and would like to list the people who have talked about him and and documentarys and other context. With us ghostwriter and biographer. I was a friend of lloyd. Caller the end of his life he always said robeson. Also i met in, jr. At the newyork Historical Society in from 1998. And then also working in Book Publishing at the time but they wanted me to do some corrections but the biographer of robeson i heard him speak on tv. They all use what i consider the correct pronunciation of two syllables. Host she sounds pretty fascinating i will now be referred to robeson. Guest i plead guilty i think it sounds like Robeson County but i did know lloyd brown. I think he is passed away by now. For pour many reasons i regret he passed away as he was a biographer. And for a while i was thinking about doing a bookkwh on the relations between germany and black america. It is quite extensive but it did not necessarily cover the background of floyd brown. To put dead german and africanamerican heritage. I also knew paul, jr. Who has passed away. With a two volume biographybiogh it is quite good if they have a famous relative it never gets done or it is in adequate to the past but but paul, jr. To volume biography is very good. Host professor gerald horne did the naacp start off as a radical organization . Guest if you consider that their founding 1909 involved a collaborationcoll between black americans w. E. B. Du bois and many socialist. Because he was a socialistli at the time. But this was not necessarily unusual tries to suggest that jim crow was some popular cause. And then to suffer under thefe slings and arrows. But the naacp that i said in my book that they would purge w. E. B. Du bois serving through 34 then had a falling out where he pends the black reconstructionconstc that is the revisionist takevi on the civil war era that would remind us all that the job of a historian to revive is history to tell the difference story of the interpretation. But w. E. B. Du bois from those halcyon days of the antifascist era to the days when the soviet union and United States from the same side. The director for relations with the red scare under way. And is not interested to support truman thinking of those leaders of the naacp. And also was a leader for wallace and considered one of his closest friends fdr by president and also circa 1946 the Progressive Party supports wallace as well. With the antijimcrow concession muumuus officially to desegregate the military but the question is was the price too high because of the compromise . There are certain ones that will begin the advantageous condition and their other setter crippling. With that historical estimates the left and the radicals like w. E. B. Du bois with the naacp with the handicapping compromise that the black movement has a yet to recover. Also a similar purge also a jamaican my grant to becomes uni a radical then sent back where he becomes the leader of the Independence Movement in jamaica. But is seems to me as the devastating impact. You can draw a straight linen and the fight from Youngstown Ohio and Eastern Kentucky and then it has a devastating impact to leave this sector of the workingclass unprepared to deal with globalization and the international challenges. Host sacramento california. Caller thanks for allowing me to cafes question also thanks for book tv beautiful conversations i have a question about a book that i read by Daniel Rasmussen called american and uprising to tell a story of thebo largest live the revolt that took place in o new orleans and with that revolution revolts was responsible for the establishment of the United States because of the troops brought down at the time in that part of the country. So could you shed some light on that to give more contextxtog because it is asserted that many people i talked to know nothing about this revolution. Could you shed some light on that . As i recall as a harvard undergraduate was turned into a book and many historians have sniffed added but i do think it is significant. To take place in louisianaa carries a reputation in the history of the United States or i talk about that particular issue in my haitian revolution but because the africans were involved in the revolts had come tovo louisiana after their masters fled with them from hispaniola to louisiana. But once again watching them flee in horror with these africans were inspired to emulate the haitian revolution. E africa and with the impact of the founding, with the late 18th century. Host every guest we will ask them to supply a list of their favorite writers what theyre reading and influences we will show you his answers to those questions. Conve host our conversation continues here with professor gerald horne on booktv. Facebo youve best listed shirley as one of your favorites who was she . S. A black woman and interestingly enough in china through the late 70s and in between she was a writer of novels autobiographies a functionary of the naacp office but as the spouse of w. E. B. Du bois she was the second wife. But with him that she came to prominence to say that they migrated to ghana west africa and w. E. B. Du bois was slated to organize and after he passed away in 63 she became a director and is trying to do experiments with the use of television to convert to something that was elevated that would be as influential as cspan believe better not. But the government alleges overthrown but to be an ambassador at that time as the naacps naacp official but then they blame to him to a degree with interesting confluence in the black movement as they to s tried to oppose policy but in any case to become a devoted follower why she dies in china and distilled celebrated but the fictionalized version but aer very intriguing story but the panel be were on she was talking about a black woman journalist to provided thek source material of the stories in new york from the 1930s. Ws but cook was also close to the family even though they run different sides of the narrative. H they but i recommend that book there is a marvelous list from the illinois press. Host we will go back to phone calls. Caller . Host we will put you on hold until you turn down your television. Caller hello. Also thanks for this Wonderful Program today and also booktv. Do you have any insights into the smithsonian would museum of africanAmerican History . Does it really represent that level of brutality . Guest sadly and unfortunately here in washington have not had the opportunity to visit this museum but understand that v you cannot get in mission before j. Gary. But i have seen the press coverage and just speakinge, th but not with particular informed in sight but to speak with a generalization but to say that the fact the torturous journey of north america is recognized of the atrocities . I am not sure. Second v and i think the second version is graphically violent especially compared to the first version i am not sure how that is or if that was downplayed in the 70s or if they were willing to except to the violence but that seems so far but once again the alternate test is reflective of the reality. If you look at the advertisements of runaway slaves, oftentimes you will find those waivers owners to only has one arm or one each year or hadrm distinguishing marks but that showed that brutality that was reflected in the slave era that talks at great length of the great abolitionist hero of this area. So not only of the violence but how confronting violence is a necessary part as his growth of a human being. Host what do you think about the movie gone with the wind . Guest interestingly enough i just gave this tip to a journalist i was there a few weeks ago with the author. I was looking through theic Margaret Mitchell papers to see how god with the wind was received in southern africa. But in the papers has quite a bit how it was perceived all over the world was a very useful project but i always say at the time to talk about how that was perceived overseas. I am not a fan i do think it presents of moonlight of magnolia version of slavery it is a glorified and romanticized version of the horrible institution. Tion. And helps to solidify my opinion and support for jim crow in atlanta and george at that time and by the way strikingly enough when it w was founded 1732 no negros allowed. They would always try to align with the spanish to upset South Carolina. Georgia would be a great wall to separate but didnt work out very well to show and as one of those most significant populations and also because it was hard to find people to work in the field plus reintroducing the class contradiction with europeans in the field. And in any case the slave traders was a powerful incentive to smuggle because the african slave trade as one of the most lucrative enterprises you could invest 1 and get 1,800 back of course, they would sell their firstborn not to mention the african that they did not know. But looking to those papers they are well organized, the archivist has done a very good job and is very friendly. Host there is the good chance if you flew into the International Airport you take the Jefferson Davis highway into washington d. C. There is an effort to rename that. Guest it is longoverdue. It is striking those that try to overthrow the u. S. Government to help inflectgovere hundreds of thousands of casualties on to this land more than world war ii . Or vietnam to the orders of magnitude but yet they are o celebrated . I try to explain the story historians have not done a very good job. Those of the team 61 thought that they were walking the footsteps of 1776 from the succession of the British Empire of the abolitionist of slavery with theit extinction of profit they were rebuilt they would rebel and be kicked out. But then you have texas succession from mexico then abolishing slavery if you years earlier. When hundred 80 years before the election of barack obama. Of course, that they had to s come crawling back to join in the United States of america because britain and he even so much pressure on them that they thought they would be overthrown. The unit then 1861. Slave it is understandable why there are symbols of confederacy that pockmark the landscape because they thought they were continuing as historians that try to tell the story. That the constitution was not designed but somehow those principles decide the principles of apartheid from the 1940s. Pet they should have just waited and then meeting of military campaign that is an example that they would flowerlike mushrooms after the spring rain. That is what they are taught that is one of the reasons live from the newsletter of t the historical associatione heau that enrollment of College Student history classs continue to go down because the millennial still not by this. And the historians are not able to change and to marketan signals. But it will progress one funeral at a time that as they die off the the young economist will take their place that will help us to understand. The problem in the field like history the way that they are trained guarantee they trade themselves people that the mythology is perpetuated. Host Santa Rosa California email i am troubled by his overall indictment of racism by a more troubled by his embrace of socialism. If it is such a blessing why not the mass migration ofy not h blacks and immigrants to thera socialist paradise of cuba and venezuela . Guest a good question. Theyve suffered a blow with the socialist camp in Eastern Europe collapsed. But i would repeat what i just said that the french novelist behind every Great Fortune i would suggest behind every great nation therei particularly like the unitedat states. Nt thin but by pointing to the nature of the country history. But with regards to cuba i will will always be in debt to cuba just like haiti. You may readout one dashh three call at the Nelson Mandela fuel funeral only a few heads of state one of which was castro. Because of the heroic cuban role for south africa. Iberate so i was just dead end or bar and arbour looking to the papers of these characters and july 1975 right before and goal of independence kissinger is running aroundhair because the cuban troops might intervene and then march said they prepared a memorandum that the cuban troops might be justified but there would not be justified to go to south africa. So dare i say that one of the reasons why the government from south africa has had so much difficulty in constructing what theyti promised the voters is that they all underestimated that decisive role to bring their rulers to the table but the cubans were not necessarily involved of the post 1984 society which was the role of castro in cuba from those few heads of state so i think cuba is having c difficulties. But this speaks to press coverage because with president obama including a recent article. It is always portrayed when actually it use study this question it is evidenced to be set with moscow to prevent towards china you may recall right before the summit the president had met with the caribbean leaders just off the tip of southern florida. United states has good relations to have firm allies relations with cuba october 1962 crisis that they would safeguard from the nations of the United States there are strategic reasons right now and then abroad or context because webr would be laughing for seven years to come this is from the Mainstream Press just like pore little cuba. Please call with ed with your comment or question. Caller i have a comment and the question. We will have a comparison and the identity conflicts. Is there anyway he thinks that we can have consciousness instead of our identities or whatever can we ever have a complete collection and consciousness where we would have validity of all been connected and then i wanted to ask a question about my angelo. We will leave it at that first question so we can get some more calls in. A number of questions have come in along those lines which is what is to be done how can we move forward progressively obviously it is an excellent question. The only thing i would say is if theres studied the great scope of a black American History over the centuries that it leaves two lessons. One is the necessity for organization and i would say the same holds true for everyone and second internationalism reaching across the borders and reaching across the ocean one of the points that leads leaps out of you so often the balance of forces were so tempted against it that in order to counter veil negative imbalance with deb global alliances. Its one of the things that is missing now. It is a lesson that i hope the Movement Studies very carefully and intensively. Good afternoon. Thank you. Dr. Horn i was so thrilled to see your name come up on the indepth calendar because one of my proudest political actions was of voting for you for Vice President in the november election. In august of that year. In san diego. I just wanted to lay that on you and find out what you think about that. Thank you very much. Im an office worker. You sir. I ran for the u. S. Senate. I was chairman i enjoyed that immensely and running for office they think that they can come up and talk to you about anything. History, politics. Ive learned a lot. Its from talking to people. At 300 thousand votes by the way in contrary to the propaganda it did not allow the republicans to prevail. She has one ever since. I think there is a lesson there somewhere and i did particularly well against black american voters. I appreciated having one of their own go for such a high office. Is interesting. I have a tshirt from that era and we have the front horn. And of course they are now Bernie Sanders. Cutting the pentagon budget budget. Applying it to human needs. Shutting down the scores amid military bases all over the world. And those where the basic forms. What does it cost to go to the university of houston for you. I cant remember. Rosemary is in penn valley california. Rosemary you are on book tv. Thank you so much. My question is similar the lady from new jersey. Its about not to negate any history or fax but what would his idea be about what the Scientists Say that we are all from africa originally as far as black and white we are all mixed is that a believable thing and also how it applies to our president obama he has termed black president but he is biracial so why is he black not white because he is my president i am predominantly white my aunt said she did it that is my question. I would like to know what his ideas were. What i mean as that for various historical reasons the United States has adhered to this rule. It is to say you can look like george w. Bush or madonna now course as i told my students this facilitates flavoring. It looks like it right over here. It expands the boundary of a savory. Slavery. Not only through civil war. Where black people were arrested. And then leased out. Of course explaining black people with criminal. It is the equation of blackness. With regard to whiteness. When im writing the book. It talks about the origin. It comes up in the context of the further expansion of the americas. If you think about it in sweden in the 17th century there is no need for that differentiation. I am not a physical anthropologist. We all had roots in africa i think the color makes a solid point. Hi lawrence. Dr. Horn i wanted to get your take on reconstruction era and who i think is debated. The worst president in United States history Andrew Johnson. There is significant competition for this. The president of the United States just before Abraham Lincoln is the worst president in u. S. History. After all it was during his term that the decision was merged. But Andrew Johnson of course in his attempt with the slave owning a class for example in his home state of tennessee helps to set back the freedom struggle. Keep in mind as well that one of the points that is awesome oftentimes missing and i would say u. S. History in general the concerted attempt to deport the black population of the United States of america its only the case as of Abraham Lincoln. It was negotiating with that. With regards to sending them to brazil. As i say in my book on haiti. He was trying to send them to hispaniola in the attempt barely failed. If you look at some contemporary work it is a study of workingclass conservatism and middleclass conservatism in louisiana. They take away the point many of these conservatives they see it black americans who excel up to it including barack obama are jumping the queue. As the democrats said in set in the election of 1864. Our presence is somehow illegitimate. Just a few weeks ago i was reading in the congressional record from 1947 this idea even then ascending them all back to africa so yes Inder Johnson deserves critique because of this reconstruction but if you look at him with the broader context he doesnt seem that unusual. This is a text from steven hall. He tweets it. Why is conceptualizing africanAmerican History and International Terms essential to understanding this experience. The presence is the result of a Foreign Policy. When i teach the introduction studies one of the points i begin with is the fundamental question which is how is it that folks with the roots in west africa wind up in north america speaking a language developed in northwest europe. Obviously this is a product of an international experience. When i teach africanAmerican History you wake them up in the middle the night tonight and asked them the significance of 1453 they will immediately spout thats a time when the muslims were able to seize what is now his symbol. It blocks the eastward path. It leads directly to the spanish. With the indigenous people. And then the enslavement of africans. Its all part of a global experience. What i said about the alliance. The alliances with india. It seems to me it is a historical malpractice. Hello dr. Horn. The question that has never been addressed and that is the aftermath. They turned around that continued for 400 years right into their who was really putting a lot of people to death. It would not help haiti. They sought as an ally. How long are they getting continued to suffer. With those who have not. There is no progress being made. Just a few cents a day. There is also the rest of it. To left there. They have no education. Im desperate as to what can be done. I thought you are finished. Its a very difficult question. Like any revolutionary process that is very difficult and have it be smith. There is credible evidence to suggest that then the u. S. Secretary the hawkish south carolinian that by the way continues to be there to the very day with prominent buildings named after him but ideologist. In one of the most successful corporate actions in the long history they played a prominent role in helping to split. It was shared by two nations. This led to conflict between the two nations that existed this very day perhaps the capstone being in the 1930s. He massacres thousands of patients. It continues to this very day. And then of course the story that told about the haitians and they have to pay reparations to the former slave owner. They have to pay separation to the french. And many of them migrated to louisiana. They shed light on why they have more this people per capita. So the raid has been very difficult. And then there was occupation by the United States. About a hundred years ago. The dictator and then him son. And i hope they dont get mad at me for saying this. Our wrongdoing there. The path has been difficult. Then politically, ive written about india and african countries oftentimes ive seen my role as focusing on the u. S. Role in these particular countries and ive been criticized for that understandably and justifiably. On the other hand im very reluctant from the culprit of washington dc to issue the stinging rebukes of the support developing countries that had had such a difficult past and sympathetic to what the color is talking about. Its not an easy assignment. Right wing in terms of the black community of course. It means that i have friends or colleagues or associates who are anti white. They cannot meet redeemed. I see my role is to engage to understand them but if i just denounced them in light of what ive dispensing and all of the evidence im not sure if it would be very helpful. You are a professor of professor of history and africanamerican studies at the university of houston why not just american studies. If they have american studies at the university of houston in the program i would probably be part of it. I have a sentimental attachment to africanamerican studies. It is a deal that was a product of struggle. These critiques that ive been issuing in terms of their omission of certain subjects. This is what it was called for. When i was a student were demanding africanamerican studies. I think with the need for it it continues to exist and i think you should know that meeting in richmond a few days. Its reaching the point where the membership is all tripping the attendance at the annual conferences i think this is for a number of reasons. One people like me the way i look at some of these mainstream historical organizations is that powerful leaps that subject it. And they ease up. Who knows what comes next. This association i know as early as 1915 we could go to their meetings with help feeling despised i say politically for my point of view its more important to support this organization for matter of survival and personal self interest interests as much of anything else. The next call comes from lloyd in st. Louis. Go ahead sir. I just wanted to ask dr. Horn is he related to a george korn hes a retired now. A couple of topics. Many blacks are are try racial for that matter. And then we talk about black republicans they were republicans before white folks were. And now has the red white trash. I will hang up and listen to your response. Im proud of you. Take care i wish you the very best. What did you do in st. Louis in st. Louis im a retired School Teacher and a retired attorney. I am democrat my parents were republicans when i was a kid. Im 82 years old. We have a Mock Elections in the 50s i run over stephenson. That goes to show you the history of black folks in america. The naming practices are very arbitrary. Im not sure how i got the british name that i now carry. He went to Sumner High School was that your high school. And he talked about black republicans. It is true. The Republican Party it stretches back to the 1850s. It starts out being a party of the negro so to speak. The negro is often time an alliance. Of course not necessarily in alliance with workingclass folks in the south who were democrats. In that party system begins to disintegrate with the new deal of the 1930s when black people began to dessert that. By the way they often excluded them but they felt that they were choosing. It has been the unsavory choices that we been faced with. To this point 2016. I just this is the literature coming out. Im probably sure youve have a on book tv. And to a greater or lesser extent it seems to me they are all trying to explain this phenomenon that is staring us in the face. The workingclass white woman in western pennsylvania who is supporting trump holds all of these bizarre theories about the obama family some of which are too indelicate to mention on family tv. And so as a historian there trying to trace the phenomena of how poor whites had been treated over the century i have not read the book but from the review i noticed that some of the reviews feel in the so often happens with those who examine this phenomena that they tend to amongst historians the agency of the oppressed. But when it comes to poor workingclass people voting republican which is it. Do they have agency or are they all duped. I think the way to solve this is to go back in history is that at times it was possible for them to get off the boat. It was a classic matter. They think that history cant repeat itself. So perhaps they are making a wager that history can be reversed. I hope they are wrong. If someone says im voting for donald trump what is your gut reaction what is your gut reaction it depends on who that person is. If it is carl icahn i totally understand. If it Somebody Just trying to engage with them. Try to ask what you think youre getting out of this. At the same time of course i think some of these people who are voting for donald trump they havent used the analogy of Jesse Ventura the professional wrestler who becomes governor of minnesota why did these people in minnesota think why do they think that Jesse Ventura would make a good governor to a certain degree there is a perverse anti elite sentiment operating they just want someone to disrupt the status quo. I understand. The superstate Like Washington they tend to bail out the wealthy at the same time like these auto producing areas where you have japanese auto plants there can be downsizing investments. Once again i would say that this is a direct product of history not only were left wing trade unionists which was on the right leaning path which helps to destabilize the u. S. Workingclass but than in the cut this deal deal with china. It leads to massive direction. It was obviously not foreseen. It bids fair to be the leading economy in country you might have noted in the first words at the debate last monday was the denunciation of china. In their lice disaster because of the conflict with china i cant see any good coming out of that kind of conflict. Thats a people are apparently going to be voting for. Do you think donald trump is a racist . I think he speaks racism. He was sued for barring potential black tenants. I think it has i think it has the pulled him. June 2015 when he descended the escalator to make his announcement with the denunciation of mexicans. People of mexican origin. That help to ignite anti immigrant sentiments them and as i suggested its difficult to maintain White Supremacy without an overwhelming white majority. That white majority is shrinking which leads some to believe that thats shrinking and intern with those numbers. It helps to drive into his ranks many whites that feel like they have something to gain or reimagining of fortifying of White Supremacy. To the extent that reeks of racism. Racism. Professor horn i have an idea for a book i would love to talk more about black power. I have an idea for your book and the security on of modern history from one to earlier when he became president up until today as the last six years. Eric johnson in mississippi. My brother in texas and others state movements in the old confederacy and how it is tied to the modern era. That is a worthwhile project. I would encourage anyone who embarks on the project to pick careful attention of how they have dealt with foreignpolicy. The scholar in Madison Wisconsin and her most recent book talks about support in the highest ranks for the war in vietnam for example. As i have already noted there has been a certain kind of circumspection if you like of leaders about all of these pressing crisis is. Some of which might be planetary extinction. I think the product is a worthwhile and i encourage him to pursue it. This is a facebook comment and this is from joanna kane do you feel like there is a connection between african tribalism and jim crow here in america and how this is the same system played a role in the numerous deaths in chicago which appears systemic. This is a hello from joanna. Theyre having a breakfast this morning to watch a book tv. I wish that she would clarified. When you post another comment our producer will keep an eye out for it and let see if we can get a clarification on what you meant. I have a question for the professor. I was raised in hawaii and i lived in hawaii i heard him talk one time i mentioned a man call davis. Obama was a friend of his. I also know that davis was born in kansas. How did this davis get to hawaii and what did he do when he was there and how did he meet obama heard that he was there to help harry bridges. I dont know if that is true or not. When i talked about him in the context of the book. With this conspiracy theory. About the relationship between Frank Marshall davis the black radical born in kansas comes to maturity in chicago. By the way the next book i published they play a prominent role there. He was a generalist with this associated press. They have across the globe. Including richard white. Langston hughes, and as the press started turning to the right and could not withstand the hammer blows even though before it was very progressive evidence with that fact. They decided to move to hawaii because that was the citadel of progress again progressivism he did work a bit there. That was not his primary gig i must say. You can check my book on fighting in paradise. Now apparently he now the paternal parents and it was apparently through Mister Dunham that the Young Barack Obama met him. He comes back from indonesia to stay with his grandparents in honolulu and thats how we encounter that. How do you interpret the use by some scholars of the phrase are history as an africanAmerican History is American History. I understand the sentiment that came up in a strange way during Barack Obamas remarks. I cant remember the quote. It was Something Like that. I found it to be offputting. It still describes the land because of what ive already made reference to which is a persistent and consistent efforts as part of the project in the narrative. There is a defensive reaction thats how i interpreted it at least. Im sure of that. While, you try to put me on the hot seat here. I admire cornell. I think hes one of the towering intellectuals of this era. I dont know him. I think he is a very good writer. I understand why its been a runaway bestseller. It is short and well written. I think its anti racist. In fact you might be interested in they criticize that. I was going down the rabbit hole on that concept. Despite that. Here in the suburbs of washington. Dr. Horn thank you for your time. Do you think hollywood in the north are just as responsible after the war they let them have their way. There are no monuments and movies. It wasnt just gone with the wind. The narrative was skilled. It is made in the movie. I find this disturbing. I see it and a lot of hollywood movies. Yes, the interesting thing about the slave trade was largely financed from the north. It was an early citadel of the african slate slave trade. Into dixie. New york. One of the first books. Was on the role of new york in terms of african slavery. I was just showing one of my students in class clip from the gangs of new york. It depicts the riots there. They feel like theyre being constricted. Both of those in new york in particular carries a heavy burden with regard to slavery and racism and by the way my friends in new york. Its actually when the black american on Staten Island new york. They failed to bring an indictment. So the color has a very solid point. In terms of these damaging storms. It did not occur with gone with the wind. And one more point on new york. Its headquarters in new york. What is interesting is the attempt to pack. They received black america even though some of these new school historians in one. Its very important. Theyre telling the black student i couldnt find episodes of resistance. The left liberal journal in my book they said i was there. Ive been sitting next to the squares for years in these meetings and accused of being in the tank with britain accused even on this program for being under the tank in moscow. I know if you critique it you could be that. With the nazis of america you can be in tight right white. Where does the publication. And you write. So much has been made. Of the red influence on the movies contact is easier to discern. That is the understatement of the decade. The communist with the fbi. Although as i also talk about in this book when they were in alliance. They started producing these pro moscow movies. The benevolent leader. Even though black people have been criticized for their elected that there were supposed simply specify. They are accused of that themselves. There is one standard. Despite of example. Its the example. Its a very interesting movie. Were to be marking the hundredth anniversary. It should be brought out the closet so to speak. Its what you will find. About the group out of china which has been buying up all of the movie theaters in the United States. I think it has brought one of the big six studios. Theyre getting very concerned about this. And the investments in hollywood. Some chinese concern. Cause the new movie red dawn. From the 1980s. Heading is from colorado. They wanted to be the chinese invasion of north america. They were concerned about the chinese market, it was changed there. 19million people. They were going to invade the United States. 4,630 strikes in america you write in 1945 and 1946. There is a lot of pent up energy. There is a no strike pledge of world war ii. Which was this idea that because of the United States in the death match it required the ultimate sacrifice at least by the working class. But then there is the pent up energy after world war ii i would also say because of the progressive progressivism. He mentioned a few months ago. It is not it is now emerged. It takes place in 1955. It was a great labor upsurge. Of course the union is red beaded. Its leaders are charged with being communist. This was a convenient charge but it was too convenient to miss out on. The other book also. The jewishamerican who is the founder and wrote some of the most powerful anti racist sentiments. Under the socalled black list. They are the most sophisticated politically. One of the reasons. It is a screen writer. Their union was nominated. It was just subject of the hollywood movie. What does the American Communist Party stand for today. I to get stands for socialism and workers rights. I think it stands for anti racism. It stands like but i would say it like like many communist parties around the world it has suffered tremendously. It is another story because even though you had people cheerleading for the collapse if you look at what has replaced it many people who are cheering for these replacements are not happy. What is interesting once your grandchildren began to look at u. S. Foreign policy. There can be struck by the fact that there was hostility. During the cold war. I thought it would improve things. It must be Something Else going on here. Or for example. If you look at hungry with the regime. People with cheerleading. To look at that question. I think it is line from the great gatsby. This is what has been happening. Please go ahead with your question or comments. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I am in all of your scholarship and what i really wanted to do is to on the caller who spoke on the monuments that have been developed thus far in this country. I wanted you to reflect on the need of more monuments and historical sites to people who had chopped in picked in planted cotton and to speak on the african connection to that and the overall contribution to the American Economy but more specifically to the confederate and how they owned. One of the major continent plantations. With the confederacy movement. The bedroom in montgomery Benjamin Montgomery if you have any reference to him and his contributions to the ownership and how in fact he did become an owner of the plantation and him being the four runner. At the tribute to that. One of the team members and we are currently working on this project. Indianola, mississippi. In the Mississippi Valley state university. But we are a team of people was our honorary chair. Currently dr. Bobby rush who is the honorary chair. I would love to have the professor and the scholarship about the need to have a monument for a Historic Site that speaks to the significance of cotton. For civil i would say right onto that deal of monument. To those that pick the cotton. Slavery was not a slide show. It was the main event. One of the associations. Keep making refuge too. To take into account sleepily. To make into account the slavery. But seen them be sported from the african continent as the precursor of imperialism. With regard to cotton a new book. Im sure they just put those phrases into a book. In terms of that one of the points that ive now come to is that in my own research if you look in the cotton industry what is in part happening is that after the u. S. Civil war you see the lives of slave trade in melanesia they look just like me. This of course leads directly to help include those steps. In the incorporation. In the state in 1959 if you disregard the previous september 19 the birth of obama in 1961. Im coming to conclusion. With cotton workers and slaved laborers being thrown out of work if you like or no longer being slaves and then it taking root in africa. And im going to be developing that. With regard to justin davis. The papers they are receiving you can find it at any decent college library. And if you look at the deficit davis papers you will be able to find im sure rumford says to Montgomery Mount by you and the other points that you just raise. It has pointed out that if you look at rice industry the slave traders were oftentimes not just willynilly picking up africans they were looking for them with certain skills. If they they come to the United States they say okay. They were grabbing people in west africa. And then bring them to carolina. It leads to the rice industry flourishing. Your 15 seconds to make your point. I to brief questions my first question is in regard to africanAmerican History. Is there any book that you would recommend that puts it all in a nut shell and the second question is in the regards to police brutalitys. And by the time it gets to the news it is manipulated and destroyed. Is there anything that you would suggest that we could possibly do. Unfortunately your 15 seconds to answer the question. I would say