Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Carol Anderson 20220812

Precariously perched as this democracy that were heralding on july 4 1776. Were in a perilous time. To me as perilous as it was with the Continental Army looked like they were getting their butts kicked. As perilous as it looked when the south attacked fort sumter. We are in perilous times with our democracy hanging by a thread. Why do you say that . Because we got what i call a land see an air attack happening in american democracy. The land attack is the assault on Voting Rights. The c attack is the attack to wash away the teaching of real American History and the air attack is the loosening of gun laws while having a narrative that the insurrection was legitimate political discourse and seeing that there was all of this violence and threat leaning raining down on election workers and election officials. So when youre looking at whats happening with voting, when youre looking at whats happening with our Education System and the narratives that we come to understand in this nation and then when you look at the deployment of violence as a tool of politics, we are under fullblown assault. Aided and abetted by the Us Supreme Court, aided and abetted by hyper extreme partisan gerrymandered legislatures. We are in trouble. And where the hope is is that we have always fought back. We have always known this democracy was worth the fight. So we have to gear up again and fight for this democracy. Fight for this nation. As a historian at Emory University o, theres been some comparisons made to precivil war times right now. Can you make that comparison or see that . Yes, in ways where you get this sense of two nations, two separate nations going in to very differentdirections. One direction is our states that believe in the fullness of their citizens humanity. The belief that people have rights h, that believe that there is this thing called democracy. On the other hand you have those who have what i want to say is a fair and vote democracy. Their vision is a democracy where you have a blast labor pool thats generated enormous resources. That then go up to a small strata of twhites and what that small strata have done is that they have convinced a larger number of whites that they too can get the benefits of this massive set of resources coming up from this vast rightness labor pool. Thats not how this thing works so you getting a sense of a hyper racialized democracy. Where only a small strata have fullblown rights. Versus a democracy that is multiracial, multiethnic, multireligious and vibrant. And so those two visions of what this nation is and can be is where the collision courses. In this conversation on indepth i want to focus mainly on three of your books and that includes one person no vote, white rage and the second. They all seem to have come from incidences that happened in our world and can you tell me if this is a fair comparison. One person no vote, we hadthe georgia gubernatorialrace. White rage, michael brown. And the second filling steel. Is that a fair way to put it . Almost. In that one person no vote emanated outof the 2016 election. Because there what struck me was the pundits saying they didnt show up because theyre not filling hillary because hillary, shes not obama. So black folks just stayed home. What that analysis did is it ignore the fact that this was the first president ial ac election in 50 years without the protection of the Voting Rights act. Which the Us Supreme Court had gutted in 2013. So once you begin to factor in that you had a number of states implementing Voter Suppression techniques. Such as racially discriminatory voter id laws, such as limiting early voting. Such as closing polling places in black communities, once you began to look at that youre coming up with a very different narrative about what happened in 2016. Whats up racially tinged voter id law . I love that question, thank you. It is where you have for instance alabama, alabama what was its voter id law said you must have a government issuedphoto id. But your Public Housing id does not count. As government issued photo id. 21 percent of those in Public Housing in alabama were africanamerican. And what the naacp defense fund found was for many it was the only government issued photo id they had. Then governor bentley shut down the department of Motor Vehicles in the black dust counties. So when you dont, when the one government issued photo id that you have doesnt count, and then youre like okay, ill get a drivers license but then the drivers license bureaus were shut down and you have to go 50 miles to go e get a drivers license but if you dont have a drivers license how do you go the 50 miles, basically 100 miles roundtrip and Public Transportation is ranked 48, alabama is ranked 48th in the nation in terms of Public Transportation so its notlike you could hop on some iPublic Transportation to go that 50 miles. Thats whati mean by racially discriminatory owner id loss. Lets take a look atwhite rage , michael brown, on the due download, is that where that book has. In so many ways it was in this thing called the oped project which was teaching faculty how to write for a public audience, oped and we had a workshop later that day and i got the tv on and the news is just blaring. And it didnt lamatter which channel i was watching because ferguson misery was on fire. And the pundits were all saying wow, look at this black rage. Burns up where they live, black folks are notwhere they live. Can you believe all this black rage and it didnt mmatter which channel i had on it was the same narrative. I have lived in missouri for 13 years so i found myself shaking my head going no. This isnt black rage. This is white rage this was where i came up with that we as a nation are so focused in on the flames we miss the kindling we miss the policy policies that then generate that explosion. We miss what we do with education. We miss what we do with housing. We miss what we do with the criminal Justice System u. We miss what we do with Voting Rights. We miss all of those key fundamental basics of life in america. And the policies of systematically undermined them and then turn around and say look at black folks burning up where they live. Without looking at the white rage underneath it. This is a quote from white rage. White rage is not about physical violence but rather it works its way through the courts, legislatures and a range of government bureaucracy. The trigger for black g, poor white rage inevitably is black advancement. Yes this is what being a historianallowed me to do. It was to see the patterns. It was to see after the civil war when you had emancipation, this should have been. But instead was a massive backlash and with the black codes that weretrying to reinstall slavery by another name. And then having Andrew Johnson systematically undermined what the civil war should have been about and then having the Us Supreme Court got the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment as well as the enforcement act and the force act which dealt with Racial Discrimination and segregation in public facilities as well as going after white domestic terrorism. So when you have that entities such as the president of the united states, these governors and Us Supreme Court issuing these edicts and executive orders and these laws that undermine that advancement of what freedom meant, thats white rage and i carried through to the great migration, to the brown decision, through the Civil Rights Movement and through the election of barack obama. One of the things you do with the brown decision is talk about how it wasnt fully implemented some places. In san antonio. Absolutely. Part of what we see in san antonio is you have this massive disparity so you got this sense of equality coming up under the 14th amendment, this equal protection under the law so in a neighborhood in san antonio that was overwhelmingly Mexican American and africanamerican they were taxing themselves at the highest level allowed but still only able to generate a few dollars like 21 per head, per student per capita. Whereas the edgewood district which was all wealthy white summer of san antonio basically taxed themselves at a muchlower rate but because of Property Values , they were able to generate so much more hundreds of dollars per capita huso the parents, the Mexican American parents sued saying this is fundamentally unequal. Its fundamentally unequal. Where taxing ourselves at the highest ratebut because of Public Public policy that the value to our property , we cannot generate enough income, enough tax dollars to adequately Fund Equality a quality education for our children. Us Supreme Court looked at that and said equality does not require equal funding. So that kind of disparity that you saw then and that we see now was blessed on high by the usSupreme Court. Carol anderson, your most recent book is the second. Race and guns in a fatally unequal america. About 42 million African Americans in the state and according to recentstatistics 25 percent of them are gun owners. Doubling in the last 20 to 40 years. Im not surprised. One of the things that i look at in the second was how saccess to guns, that antiblackness drove the Second Amendment and so regardless of the legal status of africanamericans, enslaved free blacks, whats called denison which was that peace betweencitizens and enslaved. Emancipated africanamericans , jim crowe africanamericans, civil ri Rights Movement africanamericans. Obama africanamericans. Regardless of that kind of legal status where we think the progress weve made, the fear of black people has created this crisis that were looking at. It has driven the Second Amendment so africanamericans by new guns, when you begin to think about the terror that has rained down on this society. We saw the rise of the rightwing militia during obamas presidency. You saw the rise of white gun ownership. During obamas presidency. Then we had trouble. And you saw the embrace of white nationalism, white supremacy. And you saw because of the technology the kind of Police Violence that rained down on black folks so you have africanamericans doing what they have consistently done. Which is to say we have to defend ourselves in this society. Nobodys coming to help us. Was this a book you onthought you were going to write . Something you thought about for quite a while . No actually. It really was the killing Philando Castile that did it. My body of work deals with africanamericans and when Philando Castile was gunned down wby a Police Officer because nnhe had a licensed to carry weapon, that was why he was gunned down. And the nra, the National Rifle association went virtually silent on this killing of a man simply because he had done. And so you had pundits asking dont africanamericans have Second Amendment rights and i went thats a great question. And thats a question that ihave not explored yet. So i went hunting and i went back to the 17th century. What did you find . I found this incredible fear of the enslaved and of free blacks and the laws coming through that tried to deal with this fear, to try to protect theWhite Community. From the enslaved. From flea blacks and a key element in that was disarmament. Or was the banning of access to guns. So you saw that love coming out of virginia and South Carolina where don shall not have guns for those who were enslaved and for free blacks and you saw this coming through in the Constitutional Ratification Convention where you get to virginia. And virginia is like im not really sure about this constitution thing. Virginia wasnt so sure about this constitution thing because one of the key elements you had Patrick Henry in george mason saying you know, this militia that we need in order to keep the enslaved in check, James Madison had put control that under the federal government, under congress so we cant rely on the feds to defend us when the enslaved rise up. Because that federal government had folks in there from pennsylvania and massachusetts. Theyre not going to be coming down here to defend us so we need to have the protection or we will be left defenseless. And they basically threatened to settle ratification and when that didnt work they threatened to hold a new constitutional convention. Madison was squared scared out of his bejeebers because the articles of confederation had not worked so they had pushed through this new constitution that gave the federal government enhanced powers. But there was a fear that the federal government was too powerful and this is why we have in the First Congress the bill of rights but when you think about that grbill of rights, the freedom of religion. The right not to be illegally searched and seized. The right to a speedy and fair trial. The right not to have cruel and unusual punishment. The right to a well regulated militia with the security of a free state. Thats seen as an outlier and that outlier is basically the bride to the south to not hold a new constitutional convention. It is to say youare protected. The militia is safe. Were you surprised at what you found about theSecond Amendment . Yes, i really was. I thought because so much of our discussion today about the Second Amendment is about the individual right to bear arms or what was this really about the militia . So we get this binary going on. This is all about individual rights coming out of that heller decision and the mcdonald decision or is this about the militia which it the supports had long held this was about a militia but that argument, that binary argument is irrelevant. Its irrelevant because the foundation of the Second Amendment is the fear of blackness. The fear of black people. Defining africanamericans as criminals, as threats, as dangerous, as violent and that the White Community has to be protected. And i went wow. Thats why things then began to make sense in its own really weird way so as i walk through this book i even take us up into the 20th and 21st century and seeing the ways that we understand citizenship through gun rights and open carry. Castle doctrine. Being able to defend your homeagainst an invader. I just blanked. But those kinds of doctrines that become foundational. Stand your ground. Those kind of doctrines that become foundational inwhen they are applied to africanamericans, they dont hold and i went, wow so i have examples in their tamir rice, 12yearold boy playing in the park byhimself with a toy gun and granted it didnt have a red tip on it that says hi, im a toy but ohio was an open carry state that says as longas youre not threatening anyone you can carry your weapon openly. Police rolled up and it was in two seconds they shot tamir rice rodown. He was dangerous. He. Was a threat and then i juxtaposed tamir rice to Kyle Rittenhouse where you have a 17yearold that has an ar 15, strolls by the Police Officers in kenosha wisconsin and the police are like were so glad you guys are here. You want some water . Its hot out here. He then shoots three people. Two of them he kills. He walks back towards the Police Officers with his hands up. They dont see a threat. They dont see danger. Theyre not afraid. That speaks volumes about the Second Amendment. Carol anderson, were you in any shape or form a gun person prior to writing your most recent book . A gun person . Number it wasnt like i was progun or antigun. I was just here and like i said, it was this discussion about Philando Castile that really sent me down this path of really trying to find you know, do africanamericans have Second Amendment rights . I have always i think as is a long hard word but ive generally been one that has said that we need to be reasonable about guns and so the semi automatic weapons being readily available to civilians makes no sense to me. None. You cant hunt with an ar 15 and eat the deer afterwards, come on its just the kind of logic. Ar 15s are for hunting people. And so the basic logic in there. Ive been there on the basic logic. Welcome back to the book tv in depth studio, this is the first time in 2 and a half years we have been back with eea guest in the studio. That is emery fester and author carol anderson. If youve been listening you heard some of the topics were going to be talking about today. Your participation is key on book tv. Heres how you can get through. Here are the phone numbers. If you live in east or central time zones, 2027488200 is the number for you to call. In the mountain or pacific time zones 202748 8201. If you cant get clthrough on the phone or would like to make a comment via text, heres the text number. These are for Text Messages only. Include your first name and city. 20274889 03. Now, we will also scroll through our social media. Twitter, facebook. Just remember at book tv if youd like to make a comment on any of those sites as well and wewill begin taking those in just a few minutes. Carolanderson, how long have you been at emory . I got there in 2009. From the university of missouri where i was therefor 13 years. Why did you translate yourself to georgia . Emery is an amazing university. And it was an opportunity to really grow and thrive. And to be in a place surrounded by scholars who were asking really tough, hard questions. And seeking the answers. And then theres atlanta. Which is an amazing city, so yes. Misery, columbia missouri. Atlanta. Where did you start life . I started life in columbus ohio. Actually thats not accurate. My father was in the military so i was born on an army base and then we lived in germany for several years and then when he retired from wthe military after 20 years, he then moved to columbus ohiobecause he wanted my brother to go to ohio state. Thats where i did a lot of my growing up in columbus ohio. And where do you go to school . Hoi went to school, my undergrad and my masters are at Miami University and oxford ohio and my phd is from the ohio state university. And why did you decide to become a scholar . What appealed to you about getting a phd . I love learning. I have, there were always books in our home. Always books and always discussions in the house about what was ndhappening in the world, about politics , about civil wrights, about injustice and it was me trying to figure this thing out. And i had wonderful mentors along the way that really help me figure out how to become a scholar. There was ellen ingle, mprofessor alan ingle who was my lawprofessor at miami. Who i know this is going to be hard to believe but we weregoing over some case and i popped off. And he went me miss anderson may i see you after class and im going all my gosh, im getting ready to get thrown out ofthis class. Its a five hour class, im going to lose fulltime status. Just rolling through my head. I walk up and yes professor and he goes have you ever thought about going to graduate school and i went yes, but i have no idea how to get thereand hes like come with me. So having mentors like that that help shepherd me through what can be a very arcane, opaque process was instrumental. But it was that natural love of learning. I was one of those kids who would read the world book encyclopedia from az and then read it all over again just in case i missed something. What do you teach at emory . I teach the Civil Rights Movement. I teach 20th century africanAmerican History. I teach war crimes and genocide. I teach american human rights policy. I teach the black athlete in American Society. And at one point i also taught us cold war foreignpolicy. Lets go back to your home state of georgia, youve got a black athlete running for senate down there. Yes we do. And so what we really have is a deployment of representation that is not representative. It was the same way that the republicans tapped alan keyes to run against obama thinking heres somebody black. That ought to do it. It was the same thing with herschel walker. Allstar out of the university ofgeorgia. Lets put him up against rafael warnock. And what were seeing is someone who has a history of violence. Someone who consistently lies about his credentials and someone who has not thought through policy so to have someone ol. The reason hes there is because hes black, notbecause he can do that heavy lifting of being a us senator. It was a cynical ploy and so the answer that he gave after uvalde, after the killings in uvalde texas, he said how would you handle the issue of guns and he said well cain slew abel and you got this disinformation so what we need to have is a department so you could have, a department that looks at young men looking at young women on social media. Because of Constitutional Rights and it was like a hard drive that had been corrupted so hed have these little soundbites on there and then he strung them together. I know i need to Say Something about the bible and i know i need to Say Something about social media and something about Constitutional Rights and disinformation and thats what we got but that wasnt policy. That wasnt thoughtful. So it is in fact insulting to think that black folks are going to run that way simply because hes black. Thats not enough. T have you ever been in ebenezer when pastor warnock is preaching . Is it hard to get in on a sunday morning to have an easier . Can anyone come in . Anyone can come in, im sure. Anthonys or is a story church. It is like a bedrock foundational to the history of blackatlanta and to the history of the Civil Rights Movement. It is where reverend doctor Martin Luther king breached. It is where daddy king was at its ebenezer. Its anthonys or. A lot of news reports indicated that the 2022 georgia primary election after the Georgia Legislature made changes to the voting laws went very smoothly and thatthere was good turnout. Im going to like and that t to, so you get this how suppressive can this be when we had this great turnout. What it doesnt look at, that narrative doesnt lookat is all the mobilization of civil society. Thall the work of the new georgia project. All the work of the black voters matter front. All the work of the naacp. All the work of the lds and aclu and Asian Americans advancing justice. All of those groups trying to gmove folks through under, beyond, over, across the barriers that the Georgia Legislature set in place. And so id liken it to somebody tries to rob you. They dont succeed. Youre able to fend them off. There are a group of folks who are able to fend them off. Does the fact that they werent able to be successful , wash away the fact that they tried to rob you . No because they tried. But you had a group of folks who helped you fend off that person that wasbugging you. And so when you look at sb 202 it is a mugging. Of georgia voters. It is predicated on the big lie. The trump big lie of massive voter fraud that no one can prove because itdidnt happen. And it is predicated on how do we stop these folks because we had incredible turnout in the 20 20 election and in the 2021 runoff and in the 2021 senatorial runoff, black voter turnout was almost 92 percent. Now when youre in a democracy is multiracial, multiethnic, you embrace that kind of turnout. Youre like we did something right. How do we continue on with this. Unless youre going for a herringbone democracy and youre like how do we stop this . Professor anderson, last question before we get to calls. In all your books the subject of human rights plays a role. It doesnt permeate necessarily but you bring it up and you leave it in, why is that . Human rights are so foundational for me. It was my first book, my dissertation that became my first book. And i asked the question how could all the blood, all of the courage, all of the efforts by civil rights full lead to an america where the Life Expectancy of African Americans has declined. Where you are having massive disparities of maternal mortality. Where you are having massive wealth gaps that shape the kinds of ways people can move through this society. How could the Civil Rights Movement that is one of the things that we herald. We look at this going we have overcome. This is the Unfinished Business of democracy handling that business. How could all of that have still left the america that were in. And what my research showed wa was that we had a Civil Rights Movement, not a human Rights Movement. And i wonder how that happened because remember you had nothing next saying house a black man going to get his civil rights before he gets his human rights and everybody was like woo hoo but what i found was that you had the naacp and we bwi saying the same thing generation earlier. So what could create that level of System Community amnesia as this, malcolm was the first one to say it and thats where i found the power of the cold war and the power of anticommunism in the mccarthy witchhunt that defined human rights the right to healthcare, the right to education. The right to household. As communistic, those are the ththings that the soviets want and ifyoure a real patriot you dont want that. And how those witchhunts were systematically just wtargeting africanamericans and africanamerican organizations that were vying for the human rights platform to the point where it became politically safer to argue on a platform of civil rights and safer doesnt mean safe because we know the violence that rained down on folks. For fighting for civil rights but it became politically safer to be able to argue on a civil rights platform. Allwe want is whats in the bill of rights. What could be more american than the bill of rights. Then talk about wanting the right to housing. The right to healthcare. The right to employment, the right to leisure. Looking at the universal declaration of human rights because the un had also been cast as a communistic organization by the rightwing in american politics. So my work really deals with those kinds of truncated rights and the residuals of what that looks like as we live through this america. I promised that was the last question before we go to calls sta couple more came to mind but we will hear from leo in the bronx leo on with author andprofessor carol anderson. Ms. Anderson i enjoy seeing your lectures on cspan. My question is stacy abrams changed her position. She used to be against the idea of requiring people when they vote to present id. And i heard recently she changed her position. Could you explain why . So thank you for that question. Part of what youre seeing has been the work of the sense that voter ids , it felt like a battle, a battle too far. Host cornelius, louisiana. Good afternoon. Caller good afternoon. Happy and blessed forthcoming up for the fourth of july. Carol anderson, i am enjoying you and stuff. I see you are a history professor and i was telling the call screener, i was a democrat for a long time, but i joined the Republican Party because of some Different Things that the de because its an Different Things that the democrats were doing. My parents were kennedy democrats but they were republicans first because the Republican Party cut out africanamericans and stuff. My question for you, i believe in god guns and gold buyable bullets and beans. Our constitution if you look at ben franklin, he said this is represented republic. Itss not a democracy. So were supposed to be a representative republic, or constitutional republic. I agree with you on racism. When Philando Castile got murdered, that cop should nevr done that, the nra should have said something. After the civil war the nra was trying to teach blackstrap gun ownership to protect themselves when the democrats had the klan and stuff. So i dont know if you know the history of the democratic party. The klan was a military wing of the democratic party. They were theit ones they came p with the jim crow laws and all like that. Martin luther king host cornelius, very quickly, why are you a republican today . Caller because the democrats have lied to us. They have always wanted to defund the police. They dont want us to have guns. We are killing our own selves cs with these gang members and drug dealers and stuff. So all of us need to be armed up. Arm of america. Host thank you veryy much. Professor, if somebody raised the point you in class stretcher there were a couple of points there. One was what the democrats are. And yes, after the civil war the democrats were the party of white supremacy. Unabashed, white supremacy. One of the things that has happened though and its called the southern strategy, and what the southern strategyha did was, as the democrats began to do with the issue of civil rights for African Americans, because of the great migration, because africanamericans were moving out of the jim crow south, is that you had the republicans going, there is gold in those hills of white resentment about civil rights. And you see it being deployed. You see it being deployed in 48. You see being deployed in 52. You see it being deployed in 64, and you particularly see it being deployed with Richard Nixon in 68. And with Ronald Reagan in 80. So if you wonder why we have this demographic shift, it is because of the southern strategy, where the republicans brought in the sense of anticivil rights as their mantra. And with the issue about guns k and where killing each other, one of the things we often hear about is black on black crime. That is the narrative of black pathology. Yes, 80 of black people are killed by black people. White pe killed by white people. But we dont have the narrative of white on white crime. Why is that . Sometimes we have to ask the next question. And what you also have is you have washington, d. C. And chicago have implemented gun safety laws to try to deal with the homicide rates in those cities. You have the u. S. Supreme court, first in the heller decision, then in the mcdonald decision, undermine those safety laws. And he sought guns flooding in to those communities again. This is why, after uvalde, while you have Governor Abbott talking about, but what about chicago . Because that becomes the kind of trope of black violence that gets deployed consistently by republicans. Host text message from kelvin in baltimore. Good afternoon. How does the evangelical right play a part in fueling our divide in our society, presumably, or presently, and its influence in the Supreme Court, i. E. The Federalist Society . Prof. Anderson the role of white evangelical christianity is powerful. It really became a force i want to say in the 1970s and really took hold in the 1980s and has not let go. There is a wonderful book called the long southern strategy by todd sills and Angie Maxwell that looks at the three pillars of the long southern strategy. One of those is racism. Another pillar is patriarchy. And the other pillar is white evangelical christianity. And the role that it plays in the republican in the domination of the Republican Party and in shaping those policies. So we are seeing this in the recent scotus decisions where you have, in maine, where maine was only finding secular schools funding secular schools and where you had these white evangelical Christian Schools going, we want to some of that public money, and the Supreme Court says, yeah, you have to do this. It is where you have the recent decision where the coach was kneeling on the 50 yard line and you had the Supreme Court ignoring the evidence that this is a public school, this was a public event on a public field, where you have the power of the coach around his players kneeling in a christian prayer. You have to ask yourself, if maine happens to have the school of satanic devotion, are they going to be eligible for public funds . Part of what you are seeing happening is this narrowing definition of what is religion and you have Lauren Boebert for instance talking about, she is sick about hearing about the separation of church and state. Well, that is the first amendment. Treating it as if it is made up. So much of what we are seeing in america is myth history, made up history, used to justify policies that are absolutely abhorrent to this democracy. Host next call comes from pamela in maryland. Caller hi, thank you for taking my call. Dr. Anderson, it is an honor to speak with you. I am a 30 six years married africanamerican mom of two africanamerican sons and i would like to know, kind of alluded to already and you have done some can you speak to the issue and ideology that we are still fighting the confederacy and its ideology through the states rights that have ensued from Andrew Johnson, who was the president after lincolns assassination, who was a starch states rights supporter, and he favorite the restoration of the Confederate States for their civil government to be back in power, and as a result during that time, black codes were path that the pride that the private civil rights. For example, they never got their 30 acres and a mule and the former slave owners were getting money for every slave that was made free, i believe it was 300 or something. Anyway, how all of this still is going on, is the undercurrent today that we face and how in the 1960s, there was a flip and like you said, the republicans began to embrace the states rights ideology and i thought they were dixiecrats, but the democrats were now embracing the rights of the federal government to protect africanamericans and others can you speak to how, in essence, we are still fighting this confederacy and the ideology . It has just changed forms. Host before we get an answer, can you tell us a little bit about yourself . You live in a nice community, one of the wealthiest majority black communities in america. Have you faced some of the issues you talk about . Caller i am a public servant, i am a state employee and i work for young ladies on medical assistance and the undocumented who dont have health care and we provide health care and make sure they have access so they can have healthy babies. On a public servant. I was raised by a maternal grandmother. I lost my mom to him ammonia to pneumonia. I see what we are dealing with. This is stuff that i read about. I never thought i would be living in a time where my rights were being assaulted and having to go vote. My family came from alabama. My mom was born and based in alabama. To see what we have to go through my father was born and raised in georgia. To see what we have to face in 2022 is mindboggling. I wanted to see if she could give me answers. Prof. Anderson absolutely. One of the things i was giving a talk in virginia and i said, one of the things is that when we look at germany, germany had a denazification program. We never had a deconfederation program. Instead, what we had, we started erecting statues to it, to its leaders, robert e. Lee, jefferson davis. We started having in our textbooks, because of the united daughters of the confederacy, the lost cause becomes this heroic event and when you begin to think about what that means for the way our children learn, what they understand, so that slavery really was not that bad. You had benevolent, kind owners. The enslaved were fed well, they were clothed, they had housing. What could be so bad . And you have this mean, nasty north coming down and trying to impose its will on these good, honest, hardworking, noble folk. When that becomes the narrative that is in our textbooks until like the 1970s, hoo. And think about the battles we have had recently over taking down these confederate monuments in these public spaces. Because what that is telling us is that this is who we should be honoring. And so weve got these tectonic plates underneath American Society that basically says, the confederacy, they were good. Slavery was not that bad. I think about bill oreilly, who, after Michelle Obama talked about living in a house that was built by the enslaved, and on his show he said, it was not that bad. They were housed, they were clothed, they were well fed. So how bad could it be . When you get that coming in in the 21st century, it is the thing that we have not dealt with. We have not dealt with slavery. And when you look at how these states are demanding a revision of the curriculum so that it does not make white students feel uncomfortable, that it does not cause a kind of sense of being ill at ease, so we dont talk about slavery and i saw where in texas, they are thinking about renaming slavery involuntary relocation. When you can create these euphemisms to cover the horrors of what this nation has been through, when you dont deal with the reality of slavery, you dont deal with the reality of genocidal violence against indigenous people, you dont deal with the reality of xenophobia in our antiimmigrant policies, you dont deal with the reality of the relocation of the japanese, many dont deal with any of those realities, you dont understand america. And frankly, you do a disservice to america, because america is an aspirational nation. We hold these truths to be selfevident. So having folks fight to make those truths selfevident is a key piece of American History. But when you remove that and treat those aspirations as if they have already been achieved, that is what allows for the embrace of the confederacy and the whitening up of slavery, whitewashing of slavery. I remember i got a notice from an organization that i had been supporting that said, come visit our beautiful plantations in mississippi, come see true southern charm. I thought, what kind of mess is this . I sent them a note back and i said, no more than you would herald a tour of auschwitz as a testament to find german engineering should you look at these plantations as anything then what they are, a place where human beings were bred, were born, were beaten, were worked without pay, were tortured. These slave labor camps. When you try to pretty it up, you defile American History. So part of what we are looking at is the defiling of American History by not dealing with the confederacy and how it was able to maintain its power through the southern democrats, and now through the republicans. Host should those plantations be maintained as Historic Sites . Prof. Anderson yes, they should. And they should be maintained as Historic Sites the same way auschwitz is maintained as a historic site. You need to have accurate history in those sites laying out what really happened there. There was one of those battles, our net gordon reed is the one that talked about this, those battles over monticello. Thomas jeffersons place, where prior to, you had this, he was one of the founding fathers, oh my god, he was brilliant, he was wonderful, and then you are like, where was Sally Hemmings . That narrative, that history is essential for understanding the battles that we have in america, this kind of, we hold these choose to be selfevident, but weve got to protect slavery. We are the leader of the free world, we are the jim crow leader of the free world. That kind of dichotomy is absolutely essential for understanding this nation. Host next call comes from nate in arizona. Caller hi. This is a wonderful show. Ms. Anderson, i never watch cspan, i just happened to turn the tv on. I just got intrigued. I am 60, black man, i live in arizona. I had returned to school when i was 47, got a degree and entrepreneurship. But to go into the class, i had to write an english paper to get accepted into the university. I basically just picked a topic, the disproportionate incarceration of africanamerican males. The ages of 18 and 35. So i called the paper, down by law. As i was listening to you, you are a teacher, you are a professor of a Masters Program at emory . Is that correct . Prof. Anderson im a professor at Emory University in the department of africanamerican studies and i have history doctoral students. Host and you chair. Prof. Anderson that is repaired that is right. Caller my grandfather was a historian. So i was thinking, i wanted to get my masters but i was not sure what i wanted to do. I turned the show on and i heard you talking, and my question is, for those who might have the same question, like i cant go to emory. Does it offer unonline Masters Program . Host thank you offer an online Masters Program . Host thank you dave. Prof. Anderson none of my classes offer online. During the pandemic, we went to online classes for the protection of our students and the faculty, but we are now back in the classroom. Host carol anderson, we always ask authors what their favorite books are, or what they are currently reading. I want to go to what you said about currently reading. Usually we get specific titles, but this is quote from an email, a bazillion. Im a judge in the nonfiction category for the nonfictional book awards. Your books have been in this running before as well. Prof. Anderson what are you reading . I am reading a bazillion books. They are coming through and going in and they are fascinating. It is intriguing seeing authors so with different types of subjects across the board. Host and this is your first time being a judge . Prof. Anderson yes. I was a judge last year for the pulitzer. This is the first one for the National Book award. Host how many books will you have to read before the ceremony in november . Prof. Anderson we get somewhere between 600 to 700 books, a bazillion. [laughter] and just plowing through them, to really make sure we are making good choices. Host favorite books . Professor carol anderson. Unburied sing. Its even worse than it looks. The girl who kicked the hornets nest. War without mercy. From here to equality. Which of those five books do you want to speak to . Prof. Anderson i think it is going to be somewhere between jasmine ward and steve larson. The girl who kicked the hornets nest. I know that may sound like an odd choice. This is a book based in sweden. Host it is fiction. Prof. Anderson it is. I have reread it five or six times. I love that book. It speaks to my sense of justice. It speaks to my sense of, even when you are looking at a leviathan, you can take on the leviathan and win. It is going to be hard, it is going to be tough. The story deals with a young woman who was brutalized by her father, but her father was basically a secret agent for the government, and so they let him get away with this violence against his family. She had had enough. This is like the first book. The girl with the dragon tattoo. She had had enough and she sets him on fire. They commit her to an insane asylum, and then she has a war who abuse ward a trustee who abuses her. You see this story unraveling, where she is getting at the heart and soul of a corrupt government, one that defies the constitution, one that had set itself up outside the government to be more important than the Representative Government that was there. She takes them on. She has an incredible journalist who is helping her. She has an attorney who sees how the law can be deployed to help her. She has incredible computer skills to help herself. That combination. That book speaks to me because again, it is about justice, it is about what is right, its about writing a wrong righting a wrong. It is about holding the folks accountable who abuse the trust of government, the trust of the people. Host we have about an hour left with our guest, author carol anderson. We will put the phone numbers up on the screen if you would like to dial in. 202 7488200 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. 202 7488201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. If you want to send a text message, 202 7488903. Please include your first name and your city. We also have some social media sites we will scroll through in case you want to make a comment that way. Nana, louisville, kentucky. Caller good afternoon, dr. Anderson. I am an african cultural scholar, and ive been listening to this show. I blocked it out early in the week, that dr. Anderson was going to be on. Dr. Anderson, as i looked at your second book forgive me, i dont know how i dont know more of you because you are outstanding but talking about your second book your fourth the second, something is happening now that i want you to address. I see justin kentucky, four Police Officers were killed. A few days before that, a young africanamerican man was stopped by police and he was not comfortable with them and he fled, but he ended up getting 90 shots fired at him, 60 entered his body. I think his name is jayland walker. The crux of what im asking is, i want you to speak to how how under the Second Amendment, can we have protection of arms but when an africanamerican person has a gun, and even in kentucky dont even have to have permits anymore. Im thinking about getting me a holster and a gun, and carrying openly. Then we will have some gun control when they see africanamericans running around with guns on their hips. What i wanted you to address is, the whole dynamic of a white man can kill some amount of people and somehow they can capture him without a scratch and take him to burger king, but on the flipside, as you were talking about orlando casteel, an africanamerican man doing everything lawfully, with a weapon and as soon as a weapon gets entered into the discussion with a white Police Officer, they gun him down, and they just gunned this young boy down, shot him 60 times. You are fantastic. Host thank you. Prof. Anderson thank you. This is what im talking about here. With the book, the second. You look at amir locke, a young man up in minneapolis who was in his apartment, and the police first through in basically a noknock warrant, and he has a gun by him as he is asleep on the couch. They see the gun, they say threat and they shoot him dead within 10 seconds. That sense of the castle doctrine. This is what Breonna Taylor supposedly had and now she is dead. This is what Catherine Johnston had, and now she is dead. The ability to protect your home from an invasion . No. And then jayland walker. Im reading through that story. The last time i read someone gunned down was the quadruple lynching in 1946 in georgia, where two men and two women, two black men and women, basically executed in a hail of bullets. The corners report described 60 bullets in each of their bodies. The kind of fear that has to generate, to create that depth of violence against that young man. When you think about it, the guy who shot up the Movie Theater in colorado, he was taken alive in the parking lot. I think 12 dead . 70 wounded, something to that effect. Dylan roof, guns down nine folk in church during bible study, and he is taken alive. That is what i mean by white is not the threat, black is the default threat in American Society. Armed black is an exponential threat. This is why during the late 1960s, in california, you solve the passage of what was called the mulford act. That was because the black panthers were openly carrying arms to police the police, because police were ringing down violence on that black community. There was no Public Entity that was willing to do a thing about it. So the black panthers said we will police the police. They knew the laws about open carrying. They knew the laws about what kind of guns they could have. They knew the laws about how far they had to stand away from the police. The police hated it, from the depths and the heights that their soul shall reach, they hated it. They ran to don mulford, a conservative assemblyman in the California Legislature and said youve got to help us, youve got to find a way to make what they are doing illegal because every time we pull them over, we cant arrest them because they are not doing anything illegal. Mulford writes the law with the help of the nra, and eagerly signed by republican governor Ronald Reagan, to ban the kind of open carry that the black panthers were doing, so you dont even have to come up with a hypothetical that if black folks are carrying guns you will see some gun regulations happening. Weve got a history of that. Host denise, jacksonville, florida. Caller good afternoon. I love cspan and when i found out that dr. Anderson was going to be on this show, i set my tv up so i can watch it. I just want to thank miss anderson for the books that she has written. I did not realize that i did not know much about black history in america, until i started reading your book, white rage. I was shocked. I thank you so much. Im going to buy the other three books that you have out there, because i have decided i wanted to invest in myself to learn critical race theory, after 2019 when the black lives Matter Movement went on. I did not realize how much i did not know. I just wanted to thank you for that. Host can you tell us a little bit about yourself . Caller i will be 55 this year. I live in jacksonville. I became interested in politics when i started learning Corporate Finance at the university for my undergrad degree. When i start looking at politics, and seeing all the Different Things going on and could not really relate to it or could not give an educated conversation with ed, that is when i started investing in myself to learn these things. I was shocked. I never knew about a black code after the emancipation of the slaves. I did know about i did not know myself but somebody else brought it to my attention about rosewood, florida, tuscaloosa, oklahoma. I always say, white people say black people will tear up stuff, but where did they learn it from . Every time a black person would be successful, white people would get jealous and try to destroy that. Now a lot of things that did not make sense to me, it makes sense now, when i go to work and i see people acting certain ways or you cant advance on a certain job regardless of education or experience. Now it makes sense to me. Host thank you. We will leave it there. Professor . Prof. Anderson this is why i write these books. My first two books were academic books. Eyes off the prize and bush while radicals. They were for an academic audience. My writing style is very accessible. It translates really well into being able to provide these rich histories, welldocumented rich histories for a broader public because there is so much we are not taught in schools, and we are seeing that push again. In florida, there is the push not to have the kinds of history that can talk about rosewood, that can talk about 1920, where you basically had ethnic cleansing because black folks dared to try to vote, and whites burned down the black part of town, ran black folks out and for the next five decades, there were no black people in a kobe, florida ocoee, florida. We dont know that history if we are not taught, if it is not made italy available to us. That is what not made readily available to us. Host you mentioned that bourgeois radicals was more of a scholarly book. I want to read a quote and have you explain it. The semantic rabbit hole that made the naacp a standardbearer for imperialism and the soviet union synonymous with anticolonialism greased the way into a wonderland where the association disappeared like the cheshire cat from the histories of colonial liberation struggles. Prof. Anderson yeah. [laughter] host that is quite a sentence. Prof. Anderson thank you. What i was dealing with was that since 1971, and this book came out in 2015 or so. Since 1971, the histories that have been written about decolonization struggles, the role of africanamericans in these decolonization struggles, the dismantling of these empires in africa and asia, they fall championed the left they have all championed the left, the black left and the role of the left itself. They have treated the nde the naacp basically as water boys for truman and imperialism and colonialism. They basically said the naacp turned its back in 1947 with the rise of the cold war, turned its back on the struggles and basically left it to the left. I was finishing up eyes off the prize. One last sweep through the archives because there could be that one document that blows your whole book apart. Im going through the naacp papers, and i find this letter from the Somali Youth League in 1949, two years after the naacp sensibly turned its back and it says thank you so much for all of your help in the u. N. , in keeping the italians off of us. I went what is this . Excuse me . You know you have hit something, and that became the foundation for boudoir radicals bourgeois radicals. The naacp took on south africa, they took on the dutch in indonesia. They took on the italians for some aliyah, libya for somalia, libya. I figured out that what they were doing was dismantling the norms that made colonialism and imperialism acceptable. They took on the white mans burden. The european powders would walk into meetings and say my empire is so big, bigger than your empire. They made to being an imperial power not a badge of honor but a scarlet letter. Watching how the naacp was instrumental in reshaping the norms of colonial empires, of imperialism. When we only have a narrative about the power of the left in doing this work, we dont understand how changes made. Change is made. I wanted to be able to excavate that narrative because having the soviets as the avatar of all that is good and just and right in the world . No. There is just a longer history. I wanted to make sure that was clear. Having the naacp basically denigrated as a toady, that is not what the Historical Records show. Host teaching, writing books, you also do public speaking as well. You get invited to quite a few places. Prof. Anderson yes i do. Host at what point is everything too much . Prof. Anderson we have a documentary coming out soon. That is a great question that i am asking myself. There is just so much work to do. When we started this conversation, this democracy is in trouble. It is under a fullblown assault. To just gold or, im tired doesnt sit with but just go lord, im tired, does not sit with my sense of the girl who kicked the hornets nest. It does not sit with my sense of right and wrong. And knowing that the vision that the right has for this nation is a vision that will send us hurtling back to a place where we may never recover. Weve got to fight. Host keith, middletown, connecticut. Caller thank you for taking my call. I appreciate listening to professor anderson. Like many of your previous callers, i was happy when i learned that she was going to be on your in depth show. I just wanted to make a couple comments and then get her thoughts about them. Regarding gun rights versus Voting Rights, if im not mistaken, i believe there are four constitutional amendments that deal with Voting Rights, and it seems like we have numerous states that are trying to put up barriers and make it difficult for people to vote. Yet when we talk about the Second Amendment and peoples rights to keep and bear arms, people are aghast when anyone tries to put any type of regulation or requirement, and just within the past week or two, i think it was very sad when the Supreme Court ruled against the new york law that required people to show a cause for carrying a weapon outside the home. It seems like a bit of a partner see a bit of hypocrisy that we cannot put any regulation on the Second Amendment, yet we have tons of states that are trying to restrict peoples rights to vote. I would like to get the professors thoughts. Prof. Anderson thank you for that. I had a student write a paper on that very dichotomy. One of the things that you see here is because the 15th amendment and the 19th amendment and the amendment that bans the poll tax and the amendment that lowers the voting age to 18, all of those had been under assault, absolute assault. We see that for instance, in the ways that you have states removing polling places off of college campuses, the way in North Carolina where they divided one university between two separate congressional districts, as a way to dilute the voting power of that hbc. The way that they had fewer early voting days for prairie view, and am in texas than they have in surrounding wallin county. We see this consistently, in terms of the banning of the poll tax, where you had in florida, when amendment four came through , that reenfranchised those who had felony convictions, and you had the courts rule after the state legislature came through and said, they were scared about that ballot admission coming through. After it won, the state wrote in line saying you have to pay all fines, fees and restitutions in order for your sentence to be complete. The federal courts ruled that is not a poll tax, except i dont have to pay my income tax to vote. I dont have to pay my property tax devote, but here is a payment that i have to make in order to be able to vote. Even worse, the horrors of the literacy test, where in the previous literacy test, the questions were things like how many bubbles and a bar of soap . How high is up . Here the court ruled that florida does not have to tell folks how much they owe. So florida can require that you make payment, but it doesnt have to tell you how much that payment has to be. Yeah. Host text message,. Hi, dr. Anderson, i am from springfield, missouri. My question is, what would you believe is the most Important Message that ministers should speak to in our world today . Prof. Anderson that message i love that question. That message is what i am hearing from reverend william barber. This is a god and a jesus of all of us. That we are here to help all of us. That we have to heal the sick. We have to feed the hungry. We have to clothe the unshod. We have to do that work. That there is a greater humanity at stake. When we in fact use the question we earlier received about the role of white evangelical christianity is that this is where i talk about folks putting their hands on god and using the power of god to put forth their own agenda, instead of letting god put their hands on them. And then moving in that way, for a better world, for a safer, a kinder, a much more humane world. That, i think is the most powerful message. Getting your folks out there, registered to vote in getting them to the polls, because that political realm is so important in terms of being able to create a much kinder, gentler america. Host the next call is lou, in las vegas. Thank you for holding. Caller you guys are knocking me out. I have loved everything ive heard. Thank you for taking the call. I grew up in los angeles. I grew up im 71, and i grew up with kids who had never heard of john holt franklin. My earliest memory was of mccarthy hearings even though i didnt know what they were. I just heard my grandfather and my father crying because of what joe walsh was saying. I. R. Number my mother going nuts i remember my mother going nuts when Louis Armstrong called out ike and said youve got to do something and then ike sent the airborne down south. As time went on, i realized, im old and im still hearing the same stories and the same battles. Like the guy that was beating ahead beating his head against the wall in israel and they asked what he is doing and he said im praying for peace in the middle east and for people to get along. Like here, 17 different lynchings and he said how do you feel and he said i feel like im beating my head against the wall. 60 years later, and im thinking nothing has really changed except awareness and knowledge and people knowing about books. Right now im reading, again, one of james baldwins great books, the devils fine work, which takes him back to the 1930s and looking at now here we are and we still judge people by their looks, how beautiful or ugly they are, and yet we still have this other thing going. Host we are going to leave it there and see if professor anderson has anything she would like to add. Prof. Anderson part of what Voter Suppression and oppression is designed to do is to make you think that there is no hope, that it is always going to be this, it has always been this and it is never going to get any better, why bother to beat your head against the wall . The thing is the reason why we are still in this struggle is because we are still fighting. We are still fighting an oppressive force and because we refuse to give up. We refuse to accept our subjugation. That is so important. We refused to seed our power, because it is in that fight, it is in that struggle, where we continue to move forward, where we continue to be able to create the knowledge, where we continue to be able to protect our communities. Where we dont struggle, when we think, this stuff is just messed up, then all of our protections are dissolved. That is why we fight. That is why we have to know what the game is. Host text message. Please ask dr. Anderson if she is familiar with the work of Professor John lott who has taught at el law school and his book, more guns, less crime. Prof. Anderson i am vaguely familiar with john lott. John lott is one of the heroes of the kind of Second Amendment school of individual rights, of guns, Guns Everywhere kind of deal, of being against gun safety regulations. As i had mentioned earlier, i havent been progun, antigun, but what i have been is for reasonable gun safety laws, such as there is no reason to have semiautomatic weapons in the hands of civilians on our city so it is being commonsense about it and not doctrinaire. Host david in tennessee, text message. I agree with what i believe is your critique of our racist and violent society, but we have created a collateral, parasitic layer of well compensated, commentators and helpers, many of them ensconced in universities, a Critical Foundation of the system, who appeared to be neutralized by the dominant culture. Comment . Prof. Anderson ok. I thought i knew where that was headed, then it veered in another way. I think part of what you are laying out here is that there are scholars who feed on the kind of ills in American Society and to provide cover for that. And this is why having freedom within the university, the freedom of exchange of ideas within the university, are so important. Because what that does, when you have evidencebased scholarship, you are allowing that evidencebased scholarship to do the heavy lifting of democracy and you are able to discern the difference between that evidencebased scholarship and the ideologues. Host what do you think about some reports that the academia has been overtaken by the left . Prof. Anderson ha im sorry. Host i guess you dont agree with those reports. Prof. Anderson oh lord. [laughter] sorry. I think that is also part of the smoke and mirrors that is out there, that is designed to denigrate the incredible work coming out of these colleges and universities in terms of that scholarship. If you can denigrate that scholarship, then you are able to create a new truth, a truth that is not factbased, that is not evidencebased. And we see that happening a lot. This is wes and the left ive got the saying, when you talk to black scholars who are in the academy, they are not seeing this incredible left that has taken over. They are looking at the kinds of entrenchment of power and working through that in order to do this work. Host next call comes from carol in greensburg, cap greensburg, pennsylvania. Caller i have a question whether any research has been done to compare, the laws have changed so significantly over the years for the disabled. I am 86 and in a wheelchair and i worked as a vision therapist for years but i also ran a program from 1958 to 1968 that was 49 black and 51 white. I have a lot positive things to say about the black community. And a local back author black author convinced me to but a book, and im not a writer. But i would love to see more research that can prove that laws can change peoples lives. And i dont think there has been anything done in comparison between race and the disabled that i can find. And i am very interested in your opinion on that. Host carol, i apologize, we are going to leave it at that first question. Theres a lot there. We will see if dr. Anderson has a response. Thank you for calling in. Prof. Anderson the role of disability laws and disability policies are absolutely essential. It is one of the key movements forward that made this nation much more humane. Then seeing the way that race works in those disability policies is also essential. There is some work done, i have seen some of it, i cannot recall the names off the top of my head right now. Basically, doing library searches, a search on your local library, finding the books that are there and if you have access to a University Library that can get you what is called j store so you can see the articles that have been produced that is doing this work, that will give you the kind of foundation you need to see what is out there and where your intervention would be important. Host juanita, cincinnati, good afternoon. Caller i used to be a librarian. What she could also try is the library association, it can help you with that. Also the National Library of medicine. But the reason i called is i like dr. Anderson and i am 71. I would grow up and see mr. Rogers when i was a little girl. In our basement [indiscernible] my question is i was taken aback by a comment made earlier im not angry with her. I was wondering, how can we talk to young people and let them know, this is not history, this is life, this is what we live . How can we show young people, this is not history, this is a continuum . Thank you. Prof. Anderson thank you. The question is, how do we we consistently are stunned by the lack of knowledge about tulsa. How many folks, until they saw watchmen, did not even know that tulsa happened . When im teaching the Civil Rights Movement, i start off my class going, you know, how many morosa sat down, Martin Luther had a dream and we all overcame. When you get that Incredible Movement reduced to rosa and martin and overcome, then what we lose is the massive local organizing that happened that made that movement happened so when we dont have that history, we have this sense that a,this should happen quickly and that be, all you have to have is a leader. No. It takes a lot of folks a lot of hours. A lot of commitment. So its knowing that history. How do we do this . One of the things that i do have on the emery website basic brief fiveminute history called the Hidden History of civil rights where i provided it in those soundbites that allows teachers to be able to use that in the classrooms as a foundation for greater discussion, forgreater knowledge. There are also some incredible websites that are out there. Thebuilding land institute. The, im liking right now. The Civil Rights Movement veterans website that have the documents and then narratives that really can provide access to the knowledge and thats what we really have to begin. Facing history, facing ourselves. Those entities have provided a much broader access to this history that helps us understand. This is one of the things about one person no vote, white rage and the second is that i typed in where we are now with what happened then so that we can see the through line. We can see faulkner. The past is not over, its not even the inpast or im one that faulknerline but its Something Like that. The past is still with us, were still living to from stuart. Your booksare essential to understanding the need for our complete history. After the backlash against Nicole Hannah jones 1519 project do you know of an organized effort by the Academic Community to preserve our undiluted us history . What i see is through the american historical association, through the association for the study of africanamerican life and history, im seeing those organizations are really doing the work of ensuring that our history is taught. That is preserved. And seeing this in archives, the archives are working overtime to make sure that the original documents and the original artifacts are still there so that we can see them. So at emery we have our stuart rose library and in there for instance we have the sdlc papers and we got to find the street signs from resurrection city which was the Poor Peoples Campaign in 1968 that continued on after the assassination of Martin Luther king. So you see archives. You see historical organizations really doing this work but it behooves all of us to when you have the school board flooded with angry parents and i put that in quotes because sometimes those folks dont even have children inthe schools , it behooves us to Pay Attention to that and to participate in that process so thats the backlash from teasing teaching divisive history and history that makes our children feel uncomfortable is in fact a push back saying we must know this history. We cannot be the nation that we can be if we keep telling lies about ourselves. If we dont understand how we got here. 15 minutes left with our guest carol anderson. The next call from her comes from frank in west palm beach. Good afternoon. I wanted to say the show is excellent and the professor is very good. I disagree with almost everything she says, but that being said my question is can she explain why the crime rate especially murder in the black communities and major cities is so out of control . Is that a white issue or is that totally a black issue . Frank, before we let you go, why do you disagree with professor anderson . Because im on the right i guess, maybe thats my best way of putting it. Some are things that i hear. I just disagree with and thats about all i can say to you in any way consider yourself to be a racist . Never have. That being said, somebody might look me in the face and say i was but i dont believe i am. Register. The framing of the question i thought was quintessential. Why do we have all of this murder happening in the black community . So remember earlier when i said 80 percent of African Americans, over 80 percent of africanamericans are killed by africanamericans and over 80 percent of whites are killed by whites. What we dont get then when were talking about all this black crime, that is the narrative of black apology. Thats the narrative of antiblackness i laid out in the second because what its saying is blacks are inherently violent. There inherently criminal inso therefore we must have we been the White Community must have protection against this source of incredible instability and violence in American Society. Now, what we dont get to our those issues of watching what happens when our schools are devalued and defunded. What happens when jobs go away . What happens when we have this massive, massive isdiscrimination happening in our employment process and theres an incredible research out there that shows that if you have a racially identifiable name, but the qualifications are the same as someone who does not have a racially identifiable name so for instance shaniqua Shante Jackson has a resume and Jennifer Jones has a resume. Shaniqua Shante Jackson will have to send in multiple resumes and letters to guess the interview. As opposed to Jennifer Jones. Because of the inherent Racial Discrimination so when we are looking at the kinds of biases that are in American Society, that limit access to jobs, that limit access to housing. We have incredible studies about what that means in terms of the discrimination in housing. The discrimination in healthcare. The discrimination in policing. When were looking at all of this, when were just asking about black folks killing black folks and were not looking at whites who kill whites and were not looking at the kinds of cultural inequalities that tyare there in American Societyand were not asking for a real answer. Were asking for that kind of found white answer. What did you think of frank saying i like everything youre saying and i disagree with what youre saying. I thinki saw smile out of the cornerof my eye. I smile because ive had that before. And im like, great. Come with the evidence. Come with the facts. Come with the historical documentation. Come with the Valid Research studies. So i just know. It doesnt work but this is what i mean about the kind of undermining of academe because what it does is it undermines the rigors of the research. The rigors of the analysis to make how i feel on par with that and to make how i feel become part of policy instead of the rigors of thework. Carolyn, tallahassee florida. Good afternoon. Thank you doctor anderson for your work and my question has to do with whether or not doctor anderson can address what appears to be a lot of, i hate to use a lot of help other populations in this country that are nonwhite but they are not black into pile on and promote or perpetuate stereotypes or biases against the black race and if theres any comments you can make towards that and also if you have a book that addresses how we as a people, black people can utilize the capitalistic ideas in this country to kind of show better positions and have a better impact on the economy in this country. I hope that makes sense. Thank you cheryl and. Prthere was a book, im going to deal with two different books here. One is how the irish became white. When the irishimmigrants were here , they were treated horrifically and i need, bottom of the barrel or close to the bottom of the barrel. What the documents is that they began to learn in American Society is the way into whiteness is antiblackness. And so when youre talking about the piling on, this is what youre laying out. The other and im sorry i cant remember the authors name right now but dealt with how japanese americans or chineseamericans came the model minority and that really happened in the 1960s. So while youre having the Civil Rights Movement happening, while youre having this force saying america must become america, you have this backlash that puts up Asian Americans as the model minorities as opposed to these black full. And what she lays out here is because she asks the question how deep we go from the chinese exclusion act and the , i hate it when my brain fries like that and the internment of the japanese and internment of the japanese in the 1940s, how do we go from that and from the banning of all asian immigration in the 1924 National Origins act, how do we go from that kind of policy to model minority in the 1960s . And what she laid out was that Asian Americans went from being not white in the 1890s to 1920s, the 1940s to being not black. In the 1960s. When youre having the Civil Rights Movement and black Power Movement so that kind of linguistic turn that then elevates. They believe in family. Asians believe in education. They believe in hard work. Theyre not looking for a government handout so you get these kind of tropes that attach to model minority as a way to help create the fissures in communities of color. But one of the things that were seeing is that as powerful as that is, thats like an old british colonialism thing, divide and conquer. One of the things youre seeing and this is why im of human n rights. On a human rights frame we all are in this together. We all work together. We see this with the coalition of workers down in florida that worked with tomato growers and in this organization, in this mobilization of workers you saw on human rights frame where you had africanamericans. You had latinos. You had Asian Americans, you had once all working together to improve the quality of life and working conditions in the tomato fields. In florida. So when folks would try to split them apart there like, no. Thats what becomes so essential and this is also where i go back to reverend william barber. The movement he is creating is multiracial,multiethnic , multireligious elbecause thats where the power lies. Darrell is calling from the us virgin islands. Were on with carol anderson. Good afternoon ms. Anderson. I have a question. I am from the virgin islands. I am studying the 1900s, from the early 1900s to the 1970s. Are you familiar with harrison and the new Negro Movement and his work and when your book of abus log radicals, i thought that the naacp had dropped the ball in their work but when you explained the work that they have done for people of color and oppressed people outside the us and inside the us it gave me another perspective on them but i think currently they are in my opinion dropped the ball in their efforts in being able to i affect real change for people of color in america. Darrell, were going to bu leave it there but i wanted to ask you is your Research Personal or is it professional . Personal right now. I wish i had a teacher like her. I went to morgan state and i wish i had a teacher like her in morgan at the time i went. Thank you darrell for calling in. Hubert harrison. Kind of sort of, to be for me to be specific. Because i really focused in on the 1940s and taking it through to the 1960s. So the focus of my work really looked at for instance the naacp, the civil rights congress, National Negro congress, council on African Affairs so those were the organizations i was following through in my work. The American Committee on africa, so seeing those organizations and how they were deploying their strengths. How they were succumbingto their weaknesses. T was absolutely essential for me in terms of laying out how this struggle for decolonization work. Six books down is another in the works . Theres one in my head. You want to share it with us and do a little Group Therapy . What im thinking about is a book im entitling the ties that bind in silence. Africanamerican response to Political Violence in haiti, congo and nigeria 1960 to 1970. In my initial research one of the things i found was let me give you a broader concept than that. Im intrigued by our organizations that say that they are there for the people. To protect the people as in they dont. What are the forces that create that and then what are the forces that create them to move so what i saw in haiti and in condo, im looking at five different organizations. Five liberal organizations. Black liberal organizations and im not alseeing him really engage with the violence raining down in haiti and congo. Why when they have been so involved in providing resources to those nations, in fighting for those nations , arguing in the state department and white house for those nations at the un for those nations . Why in silence when black. Getting slaughtered . Where do you get that idea . It was me being stunned at the silence because at the same time when he is corrupting. When papa doc duvalier is corrupting and violence im seeing very little about what ai am seeing is sharp and fill in south africa is happening and these folks are all over south africa with the violence and massacre that it rained down in sharpeville and so i went that they get the protection of black folks. They get how theyve got a blood he pulled it to fight for this. Why not here . But then i see them really getting engaged in the civil war in nigeria so then my question is why within the same decade, what was it that changed, that caused this level of engagement that i didnt see in the first two. The last two hours are just as an author and professor carol anderson. Three of her most recent books includewhite rage , the unspoken truth of our racial divide. One person no vote, how Voter Suppression is destroying our democracy and her most recent book the second, race and guns in a fatally unequal america. Thank you for your time. This was wonderful. 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