Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth 20160723

Detect crime. But when we be more fruitful to say that what we can measure because weve never been able to measure deterrence as long as theres been criminology. If we stop looking at different racial categories and looked across the offending which unfortunately book argues that racism in the, Justice System but then at eight spends a lot of time saying that it is okay to think of black people as it dangerous or potentially dangerous. Guest that is an unjustified statement. Find one place in that book where state that. I say repeatedly that there are the majority of people in these communities are lawabiding, they need support, they are trying to do the right thing by their children. It has nothing to do with impugning black people of somehow all criminal. If you cannot live by the statistics, then you as a criminologist i think are not serving your profession very well. The statistics are what they are. New york city again, 90 of all shootings, this is not [inaudible] host isnt that projecting on all black. Guest know it is not. Why is it not possible to say that there is vastly disproportionate rates of criminal offenders without saying that all blacks are criminals. That is a complete non secular. Host let me ask this question. There is more to the identity of shooters than their race. Guest yes and what predicts it is singlefamily homes. You can talk to social scientists, they find in evitable to president obama talked about this and its fathers day, excuse me let me finish once. His 2008 fathers day speech. He did single out black fathers for not doing the right thing and being responsible to their children. He said if we are honest will admit that there is too many black fathers who are not supporting their children. But this is not exclusively absolutely look at the prison population and those men in there, overwhelmingly from singlefamily homes. The research that is been done on the consequences of being raised by single mothers does not look at race, looks at the fact that children of all races grew up without a father and above all of the community where males are not expected as a precondition to anything further to be responsible for their fathers, those children have a magnitude higher come about a five times higher chance of becoming juvenile delinquents and ending up in prison as an adult. So i would love to make it that an issue and lets stop talking about race and Start Talking about fathers because all kids need their father. Host and the date is shows that even whites who dont have fathers and their many of them as well have issues. Also doctor jones and the other single mothers who successfully raise their children to be lawabiding insulin probably would take offense. Guest well then they dont know statistics. There are not many heroic single mothers for doing the right thing. You would basically not to any statistics to serve your purpose. Host not true. Guest as obama says kids of growing up in Single Family families are 5 9 times greater risk of as a social scientist i think you live or die by data because that is going to show us trends and the problems we need to work on. Host it does, but because i was a sociologist before before i was a social scientist, one of the things we say is that all human beings are unique. Guest will let say that about Police Officers to. Host absolutely. Guest every Single Police officer youre not going to look at the officers race, were not going to look at the victims race were going to look at individual officers. Host so that is the one place we can reach consensus. When we have Police Tactics that blanket communities with various strategies what we know at least since 1972 that that theres a very small number of very active serious offenders that can be identified and who can be dealt with arguably without interfering with the liberty of interfering with the liberty of please tactics and targeting white spots. They pinpoint. [inaudible] host people in those spots are not engaged in criminology. We are actually at a time. Would you agree with the same at the police are required to perform their job in a humane humane way. Guest absolutely. Not just humane, they should be polite as a basic matter of common courtesy. Too often they develop gruff demeanors, they are unapproachable and you cannot get an answer out of them. That is what training should be focused on. How to maintain a courteous attitude towards the public and lets be honest, the cops face very difficult situations. Above all i will be on us in innercity neighborhoods where theres a legacy of of people throwing trash at them, pampers and whatnot off roofs, that is tough to do. But to maintain an open mind but i have not talked to an officer who said i am working for the good people of the community and they believe in those community. Host before rerun of the time i want to ask is it possible that the behavior some individual tops are what is making the police job more dangerous. For example, if we look at two cases that are older not in the book, we have five officers involved in the bell incident, one fires 31 times, if we look at the air canada situation seven officer standing around one is talking calmly to him before the other officer jumps on his back and starts to choke him which is contrary to the patrol guy and theres nothing the patrol guy says that you can choke a person. Guest officers need constant training and the use of force that was heartbreaking to watch for those men understandably there is something almost tragic or noble about his protest. Of course we need. Host because were about to run out of time in chicago you asked if i hated the police and he said i dont hit the police. I need the police. He said but, i dont know if i called the police for help which officers going to show up. The one who is going to help me or the one who is going to hurt me. What would beer take a message for that young man. How can we ensure that if he called the police for the help that he wants that hes going to get the officers can help them instead of the one thats going to hurt him. Guest we need to make sure the commanders are playing close attention to officer behavior. The rate of Police Shootings in chicago is a very low compared to the rate of deaths by criminal homicide are. And those bad apples have to be removed but they are by no means representative of the entire police force. Unfortunately police do have lethal weapons with them so when they make mistakes unlikely bull and other professions the consequences are dire. They are trying to do the right thing and save as many lives as possible. That includes minority lives. Host i want to thank you so much for the time that you have taken. I think we both can agree that this is an issue that has been contentious in the past. It will continue to be contentious in the future and that one day we will talk about common humanity just the way that you ended up talking about, the good that the police do, that we can spend more time focusing on the majority of all people in the United States were actually lawabiding citizens. Thats one thing we can agree with. Guest thank you so much. Coming up on book tv, interviews with authors of recent nonfiction. Next on indepth, this story and will hate good, author of showdown in the butler. Then Science Writer Natalia Holtz and the role of women in the development of rocket technology. Later, Heather Macdonald of the Manhattan Institute discusses her new book, the war on cops. You are watching book tv on cspan2. On this weekends newsmakers, newsmakers, oregon congressman greg walden on the president s election and how republicans will fare in house races. Newsmakers, sunday, sunday 10 0n on cspan. This sunday night on q a, university of toronto professor emeritus, Jean Edward Smith on his critical biography of president george w bush. It may be bushs worst fault is the fact that he is a bornagain christian who brings that ideology into the presidency. He believes that he was god aged here in earth to fight evil. Bush called the president of france on the telephone to try to get friends to join in the attack during the course of the conversation he told him that we are fighting god before the final judgment and in the book of revelation for the new testament, that is the center of the universe for many evangelicals and fundamentalist christians. Bush generally believe that. Bush generally believed that he was gods agent here on earth to fight evil. Sunday. Sunday night at eight eastern pacific. The most recent showdown Thurgood Marshall and the Supreme Court nomination that changed america. He will be taking questions were the next three hours. Host author wil haygood, you write about black men who heroically manifested themselves into mainstream america. I think my writing is a relentless pursuit to explain all of america. What does that mean . Guest i think it has been exciting to find the figures like Adam Clayton Powell junior, Thurgood Marshall who were not born into mainstream society, who by the depth of their eagerness talent, would it fit themselves into the fabric of this country by an the entertainment, politics, spo rts his hated in Thurgood Marshalls case the al lot. Ordn is an extraordinarily Patriotic Service to his country as a look over the people we have written about these amazing tales the society, culture, race i dont know if they knew it when they were doing it but the congressmen who passed legislation antipoverty congree legislation of Adam Clayton Powell, jr. In simi whose integrated nightclubs in the 1940s all across this country and as a wave of entertainers of lena horne or armstrong indentions amy davis, jr. Is Sugar Ray Robinson the mob or new york who control the in wanted to give fighters since independence and self especially. And became a six time World Champion in from Thurgood Marshall from my latest book showdown. That he foug of course, many epic case is that he fought before the United States Supreme Court the biggest victory is the School Segregation case if you look at all these youll get the story of 20thcentury america it how with richard and was forced to mature because of the figures. F i want to show a video of someone that you mentioned it had to explain. Ng and my wi it didnt bother me because i was so used to serving. I told him to be careful to be sure he keeps an eye on him. [laughter] who was that . Mr. Eugene allen a great man who i wrote a story about in 2008 and appearedn on the cover really one of the most neat people i met him and his wife before the election. It was amazing how i met him. I was a National Writer for the Washington Post and on the campaign trail with then senator obama. I was in north carolina. I walked outside, and three ladies were crying and they said they were crying because their fathers had kicked them out of their homes because they supported the africanamerican candidate on stage. The three young ladies were College Students and they were white. It was a powerful moment. I said wow, even though Hillary Clinton was still in the race in 2008 at that time, obama had started this Epic Movement and some of it was manifested in the tears of those three young girls who were crying. In the middle of the night in my hotel room i said he is going to win. He is going to climb that big, hard mountain and he is going to take this country to a level where race and your imagination intersect. I ran back to the newsroom and told my editor, this guy, senator obama is going to win and break history. My editor, steve, thought i was just too tired. That i was exhausted. And i said no, steve, please listen to me. He is going to win and because he is going to win i want to go wherever i have to go and find an africanamerican who worked in the service job before the 1964 civil rights bill was passed so this africanamerican, who i kind of figured was out there who had worked in the white house before legal integration, it would mean so much to him or her to see an africanamerican, who i predicted, would take the white house. Looking back it does sound like a bit of a fable because steve had to have faith in me that i would find such a person. I started looking. I was looking for somebody that did the laundry at the white house, somebody who worked in the rose garden at the white house, or the person who shined shoes or a maid, and the last word dropped off my lips or a butler. I dont know why, i knew no butlers in life, but it just rolled out. I started making phone calls. The first people i called was the white house and they said they dont divulge personal information about who has or hasnt worked there. And i said did abe lincoln every work there . And that made be keep looking on and 20 phone calls turned into 30 and then somebody calls out of the clear blue from tampa, florida as it were, and says that there was a gentlemen by the name of eugene alan who she knew worked at the white house for two president s and heard i was looking because her daughter was at a party in georgetown with me. This is how it works for journalist. You have to knock on doors and let people know you are looking for. There was a man named eugene alan who worked for the president and i should try to find him. On the 57th call a man was on the other end of the phone, i said i am mr. Haygood, i am a journalist working on a story, and we are five days from the election, and the africanamerican senator who the girls were crying for got the nomination and there was one epic step to take. I told mr. Alan i wanted to come over and talk about his life because i had heard he worked for two president s and he said you got that wrong. I worked for eight president s. Harry truman to ronald reagan. That is eight. And of course, you know, i went over and spent this amazing time with him and his wife and wrote that story about this man who worked in the white house and saw history move in front of his eyes. Host this was a little reverse because you wrote the article, thene the movie came out, then the book. Guest yes, it was. Host how did that work . Guest the story was written and then the movie producer produced the spider man movies. She reached me by phone and said the story made her cry and see wanted to buy the writes and make a movie. Rights. So it is best not to hop up and down when someone from hollywood calls, you know, for the simple fact, who knows if something will ever get made. So she was insistent and she came to washington, d. C. To visit me with williams, her assistant at the time. Now pam williams has her own company. But she was telling me about the movie directors who were interested in this story about this man who had worked at the white house and saw a whole lot of change in the country. And then lord dies and iary nothing. Everybody in hollywood who i had been talking to goes silent. And williams, tila johnson, who was the cofounder of bet, they ban together and bring in lee daniels the director. They start raising money and all of a sudden pam williams calls me and says hey, we found the actor who is going to play the butler. I am at home, sitting on my sofa eating a Peanut Butter and jelly sandwich and i said who is it going to be for she said forest whittaker. And she calls a day later saying guess what . We found the butlers life. And i said who is that going to be . And she said are you sitting down and she said sit down. Oprah winfry. And i said pam, you are pulling my leg, now. Oprah winfry hasnt acted in 17 careers and she is going to play the butlers wife years. And she said yes, oprah loves the story that much. And other cast members fell into place. I went down to new orleans where we were filming and this is going to get back to your question. I am standing on the movie set and all of these actors are Walking Around in between a scene and there is jane fonda, there is Terence Howard, there is cuba gooding, junior, there is lee sheber, and are of these great actors. I just see it. And i just said it, nobody really i just said it musing almost. I said my goodness somebody should write a book to capture the moment of all of this talent on the movie set making the movie about a butler and his wife. And Terence Howard happened to be walking by and he said you are the writer you ought to write the book. And that is how the butler book was born. That actor put the idea inside me. When i got home to washington, d. C. I was able to get in touch with a book editor, dawn davis, and she wanted to do it and i started writing the book. It went from article, movie, to book. How true from what you learned from ms. And mr. Alan was the movie . I learned a lot about the movie making business. There was a screen writer who wrote a beautiful script and lee daniels told me i want to tell your story and open it up and cover it. Lee daniels, the director, wanted to do this. He had this family, the story was going to be anchored to this family and there were changes but the theme of the whole movie i feel stayed true to the story. There was one big difference. Charles, the son of the butler, he did go to vietnam but survived and in the movie he died. In real life, there was only one son and in the movie there were two. Host did alan share stories about the president s he worked with . Guest yeah, he was a bit, how can i put it, he was a bit shy in certain cases, but yes, he did. He saw this life played out through the bills and legislation being passed. It meant something to him when eisenhower passed the civil rights bill, it went something with president kennedy went to uv and talked about the historic clashes at ole miss and James Meredith and trying to integrate the school, it meant something to him when dr. King visited the white house, it meant something to him when news floated into the white house that there had been a big clash in little rock over the School Integration measure. So all of these president s did something at one time that stood out to him. He said something that was very touching about president kennedy. He was overseas, i think in switzerland, and this would have been maybe 1962 and mr. Alan had about six hours off that day and he wanted to go into this little town and get a gift for his wife and the store clerk, he had 100 bill or a large bill in their currency, and the store clerk told him that she didnt have change and wanted to go across the street. He was the only person in the store. She wanted him to watch the store for her. He told me, he said, 1962, in georgetown, store clerk most likely would not have asked me to watch their store while they went down the street. He said and that type of dignity bestowed upon them almost brought tears to his eyes. And of course he said if anybody would have come in and tried to harm her store in any way he would have fought them he said to the death. And that is just a lovely little moment about, you know, history, what he took from his travels around the world with these president s. Guest wil haygood, he seemed according to your book, have somewhat of a special relationship with eisenhower and reagan. Guest yes, he did. I think with the eisenhower connection, mr. Alans son, charles, was going to school in 1954 and the epic brown v board of education decision came down from the Supreme Court deseg grating the school system. So you have a father, who is a butler walking into the white house, looking at this president knowing that socially the nation now is about to shift. Of course that took three years and that came about in little rock, arkansas at Central High School in the fall of 1957 when the nine black children walked into the school and they were pelted with mobs and racial epitit and it was a horrific day for these school children. Mr. Alan had to see that and he had to wonder would Something Like this happen to my son and what are you going to do, mr. President . Of course he would not dare ask president eisenhower that but that had to be on his mind. Will my child be hurt . This is a unanimous decision by the Supreme Court and the buck stops with you. I am sure mr. Alan was looking in an extra sensory way for the country and the white house to put the weight behind the Supreme Court decision. And president eisenhower did and sent the troops into little rock to protect the children. To be a parent up close with a man who did that, must have been a very magical moment for him, and president eisenhower painted an oil portrait after that and gave it to mr. Alan as a gift. When president eisenhower was out of the white house he would invite mr. Alan to go golfing with him. Man to man, would you like to play golf, and that must have been a beautiful thing. Host he ddid he live to see president obama inaugurated . Yes, the transition of the president elect came. They saw the story and sent a vip inviitation to mr. Alan and to his son to go to the swearing in. We went on that cold morning, mr. Alan, my son charles, and me, and it was cold and you could take the subway so far but then you had to walk. We were walking and mr. Alan was breathing very heavily, he was elderly and frail, and i felt bad and i said mr. Alan, i think that we should stop. I think there is a lot of heavy pain inside of him aside from his elements. But he looked at me when i said that and he said you hold my right arm, and looked at his son and said charles, you hold my left arm, and just dont let me drop because i am not turning around. Because it hit me why i wanted to do such i a man who had seen what he had seen, who had been born and raised in the south, and now this moment. So, we were taking or shown our vip seats and the living president s who he had served under walked out and he was talking about them as if they were his friends. There is president conner over there, he is looking okay. And you know, there is president bush, good man. Things like that. He said with the nations first africanamerican president , mr. Alan, the butler who started in the basement at the white house as a pantry man looked at me and said when i was in the white house, you could not even dream that you could dream of a moment like this. He used the word dream twice. It was very, very touching. He had saw so much in his life and was living to see with his own eyes an africanamerican at the highest oath for the highest office in the great United States of america. Host from your book the butler, looking back over my own writing it seems eugene alan was a cap stone to the fascinating figures i had interviewed in the years past who had a link to turmoil inside the white house. Guest yes. I mean, i can just look at the life of Thurgood Marshall who was the naacp attorney who dreamed of the naacp legal fund beg a separate arm from the naacp to fight legal cases roughly throughout the American South but on the east coast, west coast and midwest. On the day president johnson nominated marshall to the Supreme Court in 1967 there were three butlers in the white house and one of those butlers was eugene alan. The law had stopped mr. Alan from doing things. In the 50s, we saw the law elevating the life of mr. Alan. That day in 1967, there was history, there was the majesty there in the white house of mr. Alan serving marshall. Congressman, you were a warier and sammy davis junior was a warrior in the arena of entertainment, sugar ray robins robinson, marshall was an warier in the realm of law. And then you have a genuine patriot, mr. Alan, you know, who served people and was unknown, had no fame, his only fame was that he worked under the American Flag at 1600 pennsylvania avenue every day. He never missed a day of work, loved the president s. I asked him during my time spent with him if he was a democrat or republican and he said you can just put down that i am an american. That is good enough. Put that into story. It was lovely. Host june 13th, 1967, here is some videos he is solicitor general marshall, the best known negro lay lawyer of the country. The first of this race so honored. Why did he pick Thurgood Marshall . St i think the i think president johnson had a great deal of justice for the country in pcs a moment in history he did a lot of work to get the civilrights bill passed come in then came the 1965 Civil Rights Act and i think president johnson, if i can find a brilliant africanri american tourist for the United States Supreme Courtof we but that would be the final offering of White Supremacy there were all white men. Said to be africanamerican stick and marshall had 129 cases for the u. S. Supreme court. So his place was already made in history with a federal Appeals Court judge. In making johnson knew that if he could make that happen he thought it would be a dazzling moment in the nation that is right and gracious righteous and before that moment they made that happen. Oddly enough there was noson vacancy site he had to contend that just as clark. It was very shrewd how he did that and i explained in senate, of cthe book. In was a master of the ascendant from the great writer so he called tom clark that they were friends from texas and had knownnown eae each other in Lyndon Johnson is thinking Thurgood Marshall Supreme Court no vacancy what can i do . In he says i want to a point your said ramsey attorney general. People would see a conflict of interest in another be great for him to have that position but i can do it. And tom clark says, president jobson, my goodness. Is there anything i can do . Then president johnson said, why, yes, there is. Dont know, but goodness gracious, i well tell you this, if you werent on the court, that would make my worry good away, this conflict of interest thing goes right out the window. But im not telling you what to do, tom. Thats your only boy, your only son, i know you love him. So tom clark went home and surprised his family and said, everybody, im stepping down from the court. And all of a sudden there was a vacancy, and Lyndon Johnson he didnt even tell other senators. He wanted it to be a surprise. Unlike in todays environment, hints are leaked out. No, didnt happen with Thurgood Marshall, it really was a stealth appointment, very quiet and sir repetitious, moments before he walked out into the rose garden he called some senators and said, im appointing thunder good marshall right now. Click, and would hang up the phone. No time for rebuttal. Hold on, mr. President. Wait a minute. No. He wasnt going to hear it. And so thats how it happened. Host from your book showdown no justice had come to the high court with the background Thurgood Marshall possessed. He was evangelist on behalf of the law. Guest he was him looked across the country, starting in the mid30s, and he figured that in order to bring equality or a sense of equality into the law, im going to have to start filing lawsuits and suing jurisdictions. Im going to have to go into texas and file a lawsuit for voter rights and thats what he did in the famous case called something i v. Allright, which meant that now blacks could vote in the allwhite democratic primary. Before they couldnt. Thurgood marshall changed that. He went into st. Louis and achieved a big housing victory, which translated to shelly v. Kramer, and that case meant that people could no longer sell their house with a deed that would say you cant sell this to somebody who is black or jewish. That was Thurgood Marshalls imprint. Brown v. Board of education. He integrated the university of texas law school, a lovely story. Thunder in marshalls mother, who is a School Teacher, wanted him to go to the university of Maryland School of law, and marshall, from baltimore, and mother just dreamed of that day. My son is smart enough to become the first black to be admitted to the university of maryland. Marshall knew that they wouldnt accept him because he was black, but he went to Howard University law school in washington, graduated number one in his class, and then marshall went and found a gentleman by the name of donald murray, and said, mr. Murray, i want you to apply to the university of Maryland School of law. And mr. Murray said, well, mr. Marshall, i why in the world would i do that . Theyre not going to accept a black applicant. And Thurgood Marshall said, i know it. Do it, theyll turn you down, and ill sue them. And thats how ill get you in. Just like that it happened. Thunder good marshall sued the university of Maryland School of law. Donald murray got admitted and Thurgood Marshall escorted him to class on the first day, dared anybody to mess with him. Thurgood marshall was a pretty tall, gutsy guy, and that is really thats talking the talk and walking the walk at the same time. Host the book is called showdown for a reason. Another quote from your book, referring to James Eastland, democrat from mississippi. Mississippians loved him because he was doing exactly what they had sent him to the u. S. Senate to do. To maintain those cotton prices, to keep the negro down. Guest yes. I went to mississippi to do research on James Eastlands family legacy, and looked through his papers, and found a lot of very harsh statements that he had made about blacks in world war ii. He called them cowards. He said this on the floor of the u. S. Senate. And he had an analyst for their good marshall because marshall had upended the ways of the southern senators who were on the committee who were going to be judging him. John mcclelland of arkansas, senator Strom Thurmond of south carolina, sam irvin of north carolina, and James Eastland of mississippi. These were the men who had signed the southern manifesto, which was manifesto to keep at the Democratic Party white. These are southern democrats. And so eastland was very perturbed that president johnson gave him no warning about the nomination because eastland now had to get a strategy very quickly to thwart, to stop marshalls nomination. So he wouldnt tell the white house what day the hearings would be held, sort of echoing what is going on now. But the hearings finally were held, and some of the questions from eastland evoked some of the questions that blacks would be asked who were trying to vote. I mean, how many jelly beans are in the jar. How many soap bubbles in that little bowl of water over there. Strange, unnerving questions like that. And the white house knew that it had a battle on it hands, especially because thunder good marshall was nominated at a time of great unrest in the country. There wereride riots in baltimore and newark and cincinnati and various towns and cities down south, and so the southern senators were saying that Thurgood Marshall was soft on crime, and on the last day of his hearing, there was the epic riot in detroit, and it really sent shivers through the white house because here was this black man who they were trying to nominate to the Supreme Court, and they were somehow tying thunder in marshall to the unrest in detroit, and it was really a tense moment for the white house. But in trying you know, in writing the book, one thing that i really wanted to do was to give a full alleged picture of these southern senators i did not want to portray them as cardboard racist figures, although they certainly held horrible views about race. Senator sam irvin, north carolina. He traveled a lot, and he would go to vintage book stores around the country, and he was a bibliophile. He collected books. His wife would see him coming and say, sam, not again. 20 more hardback books under his arm. And he came to own 30,000 books. And somebody had written a line i many not somebody actually it was me if wrote this line in the book, and it says in none of the books that he collected, books about law, books about politics, about history, could sam irvin find any justification for equality for the black man, and john mcclelland, the senator, arkansas, i went out to a Small College in arkansas, where his papers were, and looked at them. From the last day of this visit, i came across a letter from a lady named barbara ross, and im reading the letter, and it stops me in my tracks. This was a letter sent to the Senators Office, and she said, and i quote from the letter, she said chances are that the nomination of Thurgood Marshall will be turned down, but i beg you, senator, to open up your heart and let the prejudice go, and give Thurgood Marshall a fair vote. I wish to tell you that if he doesnt make it on to the Supreme Court, there will be other africanamerican nominees, and you wont be able to stop them all. I also would like to tell you, senator, that one of these days the president of the United States will be a negro, end quote. And i couldnt move. I read that letter and i couldnt move. Literally i just sat there at that desk in this research library. Remember it was a friday night, and it was getting ready to close, and i saw that letter and i knew that letter was going to play a part in my book, and it is at if she predicted president obama. Who was barbara ross . From the letter it said, do not answer. So the Senators Office had no intention to even send this woman, whoever she might be, even a form letter. She did not deserve even from there way of thinking a form letter. And so i couldnt shake it, and i was telling people about it. Told my sister about this letter, and she said, my goodness, you have to find a member of her family when the book comes out to tell them about this letter inure book. I told my sister, well, yeah. That is a good idea. And so i thought deeply about it, and the letter had an address. 2103 delware street, texas texarkana, arkansas, and i called the city clerk and said, my name is will hay goode. I just wrote a book about Thurgood Marshalls battle to be on the Supreme Court in the book i quote a letter from onetime resident by the name of barbara ross. My book will be out very shortly; i told her this was like six months ago and i said there is any way i can find an heir, any relative that this miss barbara ross might have in texarkana. The city clerk says the name doesnt ring a bell. Let me ask around and ill get back to you. And so in about five to six days she called back, left a voice message on my landline phone and said, mr. Hey haygood call this number. And when somebody says that to a journalist, you really get more than also excited. So i dialed the number, and this voice answered and just said, hello, and i said, hi, maam. My name is wil haygood. I just wrote a book about Thurgood Marshalls 1967 confirmation hearings, and i quote a letter by a lady named barbara ross. And somebody over at the texarkana City Clerks Office told me to call this number because im trying to find any family members of mrs. Ross so i can tell them this letter is in the book. She says, my name is barbara ross. And im sort of taken aback, and i said, oh, really, huh. Were you named after her or something . And she said, really . I was 19 years old. I was home from college that summer, and i heard a snippet on the radio that the senators were giving mr. Marshall a hard time. And i told my mama and my daddy that i wanted to write a letter to senator mcclelland, and my daddy said, dont do that. Might get the family in trouble. But the next day, when my daddy went off to work, my mama walked over to me and said, go write your letter. And i wrote that letter, and it was mind boggling to me to be talking to the writer of the letter and is a said, the address because i was now holding the letter in my hand. The address was on the, he 2103 delware street, and i wanted to test her. I said, mrs. Ross, can you recall where you were living at that summer of 1967, when those hearings were taking place . She said of course if was living with mama and daddy at 2103 delware street. I said, my goodness. I said, mrs. Ross, first let me apologize that you did not get a response from your senator. Obviously youre a parent, pay taxes, and you deserved a response, even a form letter, and i know you didnt get it because this letter says do not answer. Well, i said, mrs. Ross, history has a way of sometimes working out rather beautifully. Not only is there an africanamerican in the white house, as you know, but your letter is going to be in my book, and i will send you a copy of the letter in the book as soon as its published, and so im very happy to say that mrs. Barbara ross of texarkana, pro predicted president obamas election in the midst of the Thurgood Marshal battle now has a copy of show down in her house. Host is she white or black. Guest shes black. Host her dad was scared she would get in trouble. Guest yes, yes. Before we got off of the phone, we talked for about 45 minutes. The said, tell me, what is it really like working with Oprah Winfrey on the movie . Host what was it like working with Oprah Winfrey . Guest i dont want to sound oh jaded, but it was quite special. I mean, id never met her. And i later found out that when the story came out, she was in chicago in her office, and somebody handed her the story i had written, and she read and it said, goodness gracious, if theres ever a movie made about this story, i sure want to be part of it. Goodness. She said that in 2008. Didnt start filming until 2012. So, something about the story touched her, and i remember the first time i met her, lee daniels, the director we were at an old bus station in new orleans, filming the scene when this butlers son is getting ready to go off to college. The butlers son played by david yellow wolf, great actor, who signed to play Sugar Ray Robinson. So, anyway, lee daniels escorted me across the way to meet miss winfrey, and she was very busy. She was actually getting ready to film the first scene, and lee said, oprah, im going to introduce you to wil haygood, and she said, hello, wil, very quiet. And that was it. Then i walked back across the floor. Well, the next day, were in this area where lunch is being served, and im in line, getting my meal, and i hear this voice that says, wil hey, wil and then i sort of selfconfidently said, that sounds like Oprah Winfrey. I hope shes not calling me. Why does she want me . Why is she calling me . And she said it again, only this time louder. And i turn around and she said, come over here, and i go over to her table, and its just me and her having lunch on this movie set, and she wanted to know all about the butler, how i found the butler. She wanted to know about the butlers life, and told me why the story meant so much to her, which i think is nice to mention. Hollywood movies about the civil rights movement, of course they have been scant, very few and far between. In the history of hollywood, there are movies slave movies, and then movies modern movies. Its almost as if the 40s and 50s and black culture 30s, 40s, and 50s, and black culture has been absent, vacant from the screen, and there were a lot of people in the 50s who laid the groundwork for the civil rights movement. Mr. And mrs. Allen used to send money to the selma marchers in the late 50s when rosa parks was refusing to give up her seat on the bus, and so these were the quiet warriors, putting five dollars in the mail, sending it to dr. Kings church, or to some other black church had had been burned in florida. Maids and butlers did this. They went into their wallets, they sent the money down south. My own grandmother, and mother, both born in selma, alabama, and that is a part of hoyt you cant really ever escape. If youre dreaming for the next generation. And oprah has said that it was so important to honor those people, the maids and the butlers and the factory workers, who were africanamerican, who gave a dollar here, dollar there, to the civil rights movement, because it would not have endured or survived without them. Host good afternoon and welcome to booktv on cspan2. This is our monthly indepth program. One author, his or her body of work. This month, author and journalist wil haygood. This is about a trip down the mississippi river. King of the cats, came out in 1993. The haygoods of columbus, ohio, love story, 1997. In black and white, the life of sammy davis, jr. , 2003. Sweet thunder, the life and times of Sugar Ray Robinson, and the butler, and his recent book, showdown Thurgood Marshall and the Supreme Court nomination that changed america. This your chance to participate. We have been talking for an hour and would like too hear from you. We have gone threw couple of the books so far and will get through a couple of the others this afternoon. 2027488200 in the east and central time zone. 2027488201 you live in the mountain and pacific time zone. You can contact us electronic, book which of chance. Org and via social media, booktv is our twitter handle, and you make make a comment on facebook, facebook. Com booktv, you can make a comment in that section. Well begin taking calls in a few minutes. 1967, Thurgood Marshall is nominated. Where were you, how old were you, and do you remembered . Guest i was in columbus, ohio. Is was the summer time. Was 13 years old so probably on my skateboard, skating up and down north fifth street, but i had no awareness or knowledge of Thurgood Marshalls nomination. I remember seeing flashes of unrest and riots on the tv screen. I lived with my grandmother and my mother, and they were both born in sell selma, a. M. , sek alabama and me marchs and therights they would be glued to the tv set. You know, that really one of the things i wish i had heard about Thurgood Marshall in junior high school, but i hadnt. Or Sugar Ray Robinson in junior high school, but i hadnt. Or what sammy davis, jr. Had did as a trail blazer in the arena of entertainment, and i think in a way that is what i seek to do with my book. I seek to fill gaps of history, holes in history that i think should be filled. If i hadnt written showdown i would have dreamed of walking interest a book store and seeing showdown and i would have bought that book immediately. But since i never did no one has ever written about the five days of his confirmation hearings and all the drama around those five days, which were stretched out into, like, 13 days. Hearings here, and then the chairman, eastland, no hearings for the next two days, without any reason. But that made the white house and Thurgood Marshall, of course, very nervous, and those were five monumental days in the history of this country, and johnson saw a moment and made it happen and nominated Thurgood Marshall, and marshall became this great jurist after this showdown battle, and i think that he made Lyndon Johnson very proud. There was a moment and i talk about it in the book when Lyndon Johnson was out of the white house. He had called Thurgood Marshall and said the hell you put me through to get you on to the court, it was just hell, and Lyndon Johnson now on his ranch in texas had told Thurgood Marshall, he says, im going to write a book about that confirmation process and how hard it was, and im going write a book about it. And Thurgood Marshall said, well, mr. President , if theres anything i can do to help you, i will. And johnson died, never got a chance to write that book. Told that story to my niece, and she said, well, unkill wil, now you have written a book that the president wanted to write. So if i have, then so be it. Im happy about that. Host from your book, the haygoods of columbus. You learned about things 00 on mt. Vernon avenue, about things that hummed, that flew, life. I came to learn that it was the one avenue in our town that kept the town honest. Guest yes. It was this street. It was our harlem. It was a place of jazzy nightclubs, restaurants. Host all black . Guest all black owned. I mean, mostly black owned. It was the epicenter of the black community. It was where dr. Martin luther king, jr. Would give a talk. It was where Lyndon Johnson visited mt. Vernon avenue. Jimmy carter visited mt. Vernon avenue. Politicians, if they wanted to get black vote, had to appear on mt. Vernon avenue, and my mother went up to mt. Vernon avenue to some of the bars, nightclubs, and my sisters did, too, and whole family went to this strip in columbus, ohio and that book actually was conceived as a book about a street that slowly disappeared over a period of time, like many urban neighborhoods with nightclubs have disappeared for various reasons. Urban renewal or highways being built. The highway came and sort of took the guts out of mt. Vernon avenue, but i can see that the book the haygoods of columbus it wasnt my idea, that title. Im not i wouldnt have thought that my name the surname of my family needed to be in a book title, but anyway, that was the editors decision, named peter davidson, who ed jetted it. But the book was about the rise and fall of mt. Vernon avenue and then morphed in a family memoir. Host my mother drank. She couldnt hold it but preferred bur ban, when drank she wanted to dance and also wanted to philosophize. Guest my mother, we lost her not long ago, her family. Born in alabama worked most of her life. When the tide have a job as a did have a job as a waitress, and she loved mt. Vernon avenue. She loved to have a good time. She loved sense of family, too. That was very important to her family. She lived her parents, grandmother and grandfather, for many years, on the north side of town, and then we moved to the east side of the town, into a housing project, when i was in the ninth grade, and that was actually my mothers First Independent living by herself. She lived there with her children, and the bright lights of mt. Vernon avenue pulled her on the weekend, and that, i think, was the impetus looking back at my mother and her life, that was the impetus to do that book. Host did the bright lights grab you or any other members of your family . Guest yes. Yes. Everybody in the family, i think, liked the lure of nightclubs. Became the first person in my family to go to college in 1972. I went off to college. I went to Miami University in ohio, which is where i actually teach at now, and so i would be home in the summertime and would sort of peek in on what was going on, on mt. Vernon avenue, but that night life, that you know, the dark and bright lights of night life frightened me. I just didnt want to be caught in the snare of it. And so i found way to understand it by writing about it. And now its i dont know if this is charming or cute or what, but mayor michael coleman, who just left office in columbus, has named a small part of mt. Vernon avenue wil haygood way, and its right in front of the where old theater used to be that my mother dreamed of having her picture in that theater. And so that just a sweet little, i guess, moment in a writers life. Host long time journalist with boston globe and the Washington Post. Kirk, in oroville, california, youre first up. Hello. Host go ahead. Caller i want to make a comment on how story about barbara ross, a beautiful story, person did have a voice in Politics Today and did make a difference and did make a difference, especially with the election year, how people think that their voice doesnt count but this is a perfect example how a persons voice did matter and its a really beautiful story. I really enjoyed it very much i will buy you book, sir, thank you very much. Guest well, thank you very much. Yes, i sometimes talk to College Students, even the students who i teach, and i let them know that one person can make a difference, and you can be brave just with a pen and paper, and that what barbara ross did. Im surely she had no idea where that letter went, where it floated off to. She never got a response. But many, many, many years later, wil haygood, a little boy on the skateboard in 1967, grows up to become a writer, goes to arkansas, sees some papers and finds the letter and puts it in the book and then finds barbara ross herself, and so people can make a difference, and its wonderful to see things like that happen. So thank you. Host did she like the book . Guest yes, she did. She wrote me a wonderful letter, which ill cherish. She said mostly in the letter that she had wanted to know all of the behind the scenes things that happened that enabled Thurgood Marshall to make it on to the bench, and she told me in her letter she said, now i know, and that p. S. , maybe ill write my own book some day. So, she became a School Teacher for many years. History. She taught history. Host bobby in portsmith, virginia, youre on booktv with wil haygood. Caller how you do, first id like to thank you for your books, and im sitting here listening to you, and ive been a novelist study myself. Id like to make a comment and also pose a question. I find that it has never seemed to have been an attempt to give us a level Playing Field as far as mental and psychological fairness. The media can slant things to always keep it in the physical construct, which most of the time some type of negative trigger is always accompanied to anything that we do. Even the good things. All that question on that comment, i would like to pose a question to you because i look for places where we can have a more intimate audience with people such as yourself, where we can portray and deliver information to us in the whole concept that mentally and psychologically healthy to us. Do you know of any such venues that i might become an audience of . Guest well, i my life is glued mostly to the writing aspect of what youre talking about. I look at the case of the new york kingpin, Adam Clayton Powell, when he died, there were a lot of negative stories about powell, and one of the things that i wanted to do as a writer is show his importance oLyndon Johnsons war on poverty, and so that was my way of sort of flipping the narrative about mr. Powell, and i think that book did that to show him as a human being. Warts and all. No one is person. But his talents far outweighed any flaws that he had. So that is what i can put your question, finding the positive in these stories. Host i want show to some video 0 of Adam Clayton Powell. I may belong to a group of people that some others may think are inferior, but i belong to a group of people that god, omniscient, omni present god, god of all power, says youre my children, and youre the same as anyone else. And with that kind of faith in me, and courage in me, i know im as good if not better than anybody that walks the halls of congress. [cheers and applause] its not the color of your skin, brother. Its what you got in your heart and in your mind that makes you a man or a woman. Remember that. [cheers and applause] and if you all will stand together, theres nobody in this world that can stop a united mass of people moving as one. Standing together. Working together. Picketing together, boycotting together, voting together, loving together, worshiping together. Youll win together. Walk together, children. Dont you get worried. Host from your book, king of the cats, Adam Clayton Powell had no predecessor. He was handpicked by no one and arrived in washington with independence. Guest yes. He was an original. First black congressman from the eastern seaboard, arrived in washington in 1945, when he was sworn in, and he was battling many politicians in his own party, southern democrats, the very people, actually, who i end up circling back to nor Thurgood Marshall. He was in the house and these were senators. So powell was on the out in outside in the u. S. Congress a almost because the chairman of the education and Labor Committee was a gentleman named graham barden, who kept powell down, but when with the wave of democrats who were elected in 1960, Adam Clayton Powells seniority elevated him and he became chairman of the education Labor Committee. Powerful position, and he started passing a lot of social legislation and student loan bills, Outward Bound program, very instrumental. That a Beautiful Program that i went through that the federal government would find these Gifted High School students and send you to a local college in the summertime to take courses. A wonderful Scholarship Program that still exists. And so powell was responsible for passing a whole lot of the poverty legislation in this country in 1964 and 1965 and 1966. Host his successor is still in congress, charlie rangle. Guest yes, yes. Who host in a primary. Guest yes. Powell was involved in scandal and taking two women on a trip and using house funds to do by todays standards, its a small scandal but envelopes nevertheless he was ousted by house members, not by the voters, and he sued the house. The case went to the Supreme Court and he won. The house might have had a valid legislative move if they would have adhered to the will of the people first, but they just threw him out, ignoring the will of the people who wanted powell to be seated. Host darryl in tacoma, washington, go ahead. Were listening. Caller yes, first of all, youre host if you could i apologize for interrupting but if you could get off the speaker phone, its a little difficult to under. Caller im not on speaker. Host thats better. Caller but powell a brother in the columbus signify talked greatly about you and your accomplishments. So very pleased. One of the things you mention was how the black financed civil rights can the butlers and whatever, but theres another area where the unions, uaw in particular, the fundraise did most of the financing. They are responsible for getting people out of the birmingham jail. Hey did the march on washington, as well also the transportation and the most powerful black person in the 40s and 50s was the secretary of that union, who is black, and they had over 30,000 members who were black who they supported. So a wonderful area. I just love your books. You tell great stories. And youre a great historian. So that the area. So thank you very much. And the only question is, of your memoir of your family, you talk about your mother. Is there anything else about your family thats special . Because in many ways, you are special. And you really reflect that. Anything about your family host let get an answer. Guest i have the, by the way, for that call, sir. I like to think that all members of my family are very gifted. They taught me things about life and about unity. Its a very close family. I see family members all the time. So im very fortunate to have the family that i have. I love them all, of course, very deeply. One thing about the financing of the civil rights movement, when i was working on my sammy davis, jr. Book, i interviewed hari harry bellefonte, and he said one of the things you really have to get in this book is the fact that sammy davis, jr. Spent a lot of money to dr. King to help people out, and i never knew that, and i was fascinated by that story. Sammy was one of the few black entertainers who could overnight come up with 40,000 in cash to bail out kids and teenagers who had been arrested in georgia or mississippi or florida, and so he was great to it was great to learn that part of the sammy davis story. It became a very important chapter in my sammy davis, jr. Book. So thank you for pointing that out. Host back to the haygoods of columbus. Looking back i can see that summer night marked the beginning of my sisters decline. When she recovered she climbed out of bed at home walked straight ahead, thin as a wafer, into years and years of darkness, who is wonder. Guest wonder is my sister. Host twin. Guest yes, my twin sister, and she battled some demons in life. I lost a sister also. Host to the brightlights of mt. Vernon avenue . Guest yes. Any sister geraldine. And so things happen in families theres that famous quote, all families are alike in some ways. And so but theres a wonderful flipside. My sister, wonder, recently graduated from Columbus State Community college, and i delivered the commencement address, and so good for her. Im very proud of her. Host you also talk about the fact you grew up a stutterer. Guest yes, did. Had a very bad speech impediment when i was a kid. Mostly gone but i would say in the second, third, fourth grade, it was very it was so bad that i had a i had to go to Speech Therapy or whatever, and it was old fashioned. They would put this big machine on my head. It was just crazy. Didnt work. Nothing worked. That did not work. And life went on, and things got better and better and better. So, now almost invisible, but i had to come through that, and sort of its its mystery ofw one can get through that. It almost i think its sort of steeped maybe in this. I kept getting cut from Basketball Teams. I got cut from the eighth grade Basketball Team. I got cut from the tenth grade Basketball Team, and i got cut from the Junior Varsity Basketball Team in the Miami University in ohio. Now, i would go back to the coaches and i asked every coach if i could have a second chance, if i could have one more day of practice, because i had enough confidence in myself that i would do better that extra practice. Ive always been very grateful if somebody would just believe in me. That we want to show. Guest wow. Host that was the speech, right . Just go yet. I gave the address. Ooscar george is college park, maryland. Pigs are holding on. Youre on with author, wil haygood. Caller its really great to speak with you. I initially had questioned about an essay towards africanamericans of the struggle but this kind of led me to want to more devotion about the other side where there is many africanamericans you see that have promised an end to doing down there, myself is a perfect example. College come off a