Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History tv documents americas stories, and on sundays booktv bring to the latest in Nonfiction Books and authors. Funding for cspan2 come from these television companies, and more, including wow. The world has changed here today fast level Internet Connection is something no one can live without so wow is there for our customers with speed, reliability, value and choice. Now more than ever it all starts with great internet. Wow, along with these television companies, supports cspan2 as a public service. So walter isaacson, son of new orleans. Im sorry, rhodes scholar, erudite intellectual, recipient of how many awards . We dont have enough time. Walter, you have documented through these biographies of some of the most complicated, complex, and challenging personalities of history, and, of course, your biography of Benjamin Franklin stands out because franklin was an enigma to so many. And i want you to talk about why this film, because of course ken is an extraordinary interpreter of history, and particularly american culture. But why today is an old dead white men like Benjamin Franklin relevant . Ben franklin is the historical figure we most need back today. Hes the person who helped try to unite the colonies, to dissipate the passions and the hatreds and the ideologies. He was the person who most connected science to statecraft, believed as the clip showed about the importance of saying lets not jump to conclusions, lets have the experiments he may come with it was about lightning or whether it was about taxation, or he titus together with the postal system. So he did so much, but the main thing is the arc of his moral life i think represents the art of our nations moral life. A quest for selfimprovement, but deep flaws that needed to be face later in his life so that he could help rectify them. The most obvious was that he insulated two people when he found his printshop in philadelphia, and then he becomes appalled at the concept. You talked about education both in your book and on the panel earlier. He starts to things. The academy for the education of youth in philadelphia, which becomes pen, and the associates of doctor gray which was a Public School to teach children of slaves and freed slaves. Then having done this compromise, because he always believed that the whole democracy together we had to make compromises sometimes. But the hardest thing we do in our lives is when to make a compromise and when to stand true for moral principles. He got it wrong a few times and he made a list of every time he got it wrong, like when you ran away, he was an apprentice himself. He runs away to philadelphia famously. But the last one is that the great part in his life was tolerating slavery. So he said how can i rectify any rectified it by becoming the the president of the society for the abolition of slavery, which in 1777 was pretty early for that, and creating a Revolving Fund for apprenticeships and young people. You talked eloquently that charity is not just charity, its fighting injustice thats been drinking to the system. So by starting so many civic organizations, the first free library of philadelphia, the catalyst for the education of youth, this notion of a Revolving Fund for people who want to start Small Businesses. To me and being the greatest innovator of the time from the lightning rod to the all that makes him the quintessential american, flawed on a Journey Towards what he called the pursuit of moral perfection. But during his life he actually achieved that transformation. Right, and doing a life that during to let of her country i i find him to be a metaphor for the country. We are trying in fits and starts to achieve that transformation. But even at the end of his life, in his journal hes trying to figure out what didnt i do . When my students are at tulane would said okay should we take the name aber off of aber hall or take things as okay understand why you may want to take paint down. But before you do it think if they put reporter on the wall here someday, what 100 just now will be causing people to say, weve got to take that persons portrait denver was it because you ate meat or because gas burning car or maybe even because you were supported abortion. I mean, be able to challenge your own beliefs to seo history might judge you. But your other, among other biographies, jefferson spewed well, thats mr. Meacham. I wrote a little about him. But you have written about jefferson, and the difference there is jefferson was jefferson was unable to make and john said that earlier this morning and annette gordonreed was here. What i call it the jefferson conundrum, meaning how do you judge people who are great in many ways but in the light of history, i hate it when people use in the context of their time, which is usually a euphemism for, you know, excusing a moral lapse. But where so many people who fall prey to the jefferson conundrum. Even in my work writing about biology with the code breaker, you have james watson who is the greatest biologists of the 20th century, does the structure of dna, but becomes racist basically in his feelings about race and heredity. So how do you teach watson and biology . How do you teach jefferson in history . Annette gordonreed was pretty interesting last, yesterday, and so was imani perry. Which is, its too easy for us to just dismiss a jefferson or something. Now, i do give frank, i do think that you earn extra credit for being ahead of the curve of history franklins reputation is certainly, i mean, he is held in high regard to the lands of a moral framework living his life. Right, and he comes to grips with slavery and, of course, jefferson doesnt even free even sally hemmings, much less his preponderance of his slaves. So, yes, i think even as the great thing about history is we get to reassess people but we also have to be humble about knowing what they knew when they knew it. But your point that he is a metaphor for today, and this is why he is relevant, it is as if that dialectic between franklin and jefferson continues that tension of jefferson saying i know that this is wrong, but this is necessary in order for me to have all of this. Right. I mean, i think in some ways thats a metaphor. Enters something thats also bad about jefferson, is that he actually had deeper moral thinker than franklin. Really . But ben franklin is very practical answers gets come look, sometimes you know the philosophers in madison and jefferson are amongst them, and yet the deeper philosopher whose reading john locke and body all these treatises, they still cant have the common sense of an average printer and shopkeeper like ben franklin on Market Street. So as a deeply reflective person who read all the great philosophers, jefferson should have gotten it a little bit better than he did. So interesting that come at a think that youre narrating through American History metaphorically through franklin is a really, when people ask this question today, why are these guys relevant . I mean, i think its such a powerful articulation of why we need history, all of our history, but why understanding these man is so important to understanding today. And i think, walter, among the things that youve been able to do is to come throughout your career, look back and look forward. So to go from someone like franklin to steve jobs. That was a head snapper. [laughing] i mean, walter, why did you, what was if you want to know what ben franklin really was he would say i was an inventor. Lightning rods to cleanburning stoves, even inventing concepts at the concept of federalism where you both the states and the union, and they exist, thy coexist. And so what sets franklin apart is hes the greatest innovator of his time. Thinking of new things, whether its inventions are concepts or ways to Balance Power with the bourbon pack nation, figure out how to do experiments on the temperature of the water in the atlantic to figure out the gulf streams. So whereas mr. Meacham became interested in sort of grand political leaders, after doing ben franklin i said im actually more interested in innovators, people, and one of the people about franklin and jefferson together is a would of thought you were a philistine if you didnt appreciate the science of the time, if he didnt try to understand newtons balances and checks, if you didnt understand anatomy. We lost, when i was young, this sense that we all had to appreciate science. And so what i did was after frankly i said what caused us, many people who are not scientists to be intimidated by it, it was einstein. He makes it seem to be einstein to understand einstein got what to do a book on him to show that science has the duty and that led me of course after i did that franklin and, i did ben franklin and einstein youll appreciate this since his wife is on your board not, i get a call from steve jobs and he says do the next. I said yeah, yeah. Franklin, einstein, you. You arrogant [laughing] but then i realized to steve jobs had done more to affect our lives than any secretary of state or, you know, fed chairman or even president. And the fact that her walk around with an iphone and have my gps uber and Everything Else it so i became interested more in innovators than in powerful leaders. But getting back to franklin, franklin was a big believer in the humanities. I i mean, the notion of being wl read, the notion of what we think of did it as liberal arts. Its because you didnt get to go to school. He was a tenth son of a puritan emigrant, and being the tenth son he was going to be his fathers types to the lord source paths going to send it to harvard to study for the ministry. This is a long time ago with harvard knew how to train ministers. But franklin, let us say, was not cut from the cloth. One point he said to his father when they were salting away the provisions for the waiter he said let me say grace over right now and we get it done with once and for all for the entire winter. What i had to say every meal. [laughing] was father decides not to send to harvard. He runs a way to philadelphia. But yeah, its that sort of self taught person where he is apprenticed to his brother who is a publisher and printer, and every night he takes books down from the shelves and learns here and what franklin does, there are two people in history, mae three if you count aristotle, that two people in history of humanity who really tried to learn everything you could possibly know about every subject that was noble. Leonardo da vinci and ben franklin. And thats why i wanted to do biographies of both. Because what they see is the connection between the arts and the humanities. As you said at the end of your talk, that people, steve jobs once said and he it goes rigo your story about poetry, that basically the reason bill gates created the zoom which was a most godawful product ever to be done in microsoft word is almost unusable, was because he studied only coding insights and Computer Science where steve jobs studied calligraphy, dance, poetry and art when he went to college. So that notion st did when he ever did a Product Launch he always showed the last slide was the intersection of the arts and technology. And so thats what we do at tulane but thats what you were saying, to come is the key to creativity. Speaking of creativity, philadelphia during Franklin Stein was the cradle of creativity franklins time. And why was at . I think that is a deeply important to understand why some places in sometimes become credos of creativity, and if e go through history you can start in 1570 with florence becomes the hub of the renaissance. You go to 1770 where philadelphia is. 1970 where the stanford area is and use what makes it work . Well, in philadelphia and in florence in particular, as you spoke about earlier, and i loved your comment on its a shame that diversity got defined in the context of the body decision instead of in the context of the glorification that we see her in new orleans by having a diverse culture and we know why thats a great thing, thats something to be imposed by law, but if you look at lets pick florence, when leonardo goes there he is a total misfit. He was born out of wedlock. Hes a gay, hes lefthanded, hes distracted. You know, but he gets to florence and the mattice family thinks hes great and he becomes accepted in a town in which people are coming in from the Ottoman Empire that has the greatest diversity everywhere. Of any place then. Thats why the renaissance happens there. In 1770 when ben franklin, before then, but when ben franklin runs away from boston, with all due respect to boston which we both like him was a very puritan, very monoculture, and if you deviate in any way, if you like on the wrong side of the antinomian crisis of gods grace and love you had to leave and go found rhode island or something. So he runs away and comes to philadelphia where theres moravians and jews an episcopal and anglicans and blacks and slaves and freed slaves, thats the cities name, city of brotherly love, philadelphia. That diversity allows the birth of america just like florence allows the birth of the renaissance. But he was truly a singular figure in this. Did he have, i mean, he didnt have a mattice, with their patrons in philadelphia. Was not exactly what is good at trying to find patrons. Ivic leaders, and he created what he called the Leather Apron Club because it wasnt for the wealthiest of philadelphia or the workman of who is for the middle class. He called it. We the middling people who were the leather aprons because those are the people who got up early, put on leather aprons i, opened the door to the shop and they were there and they decided to figure out how to do civic improvements and every month they come up with one. The free library, the militia, the street sweeping core, the academy and whatever and i think that was his secret and you see it in great cities where its not just some patron handing down things but this sort of civic life it gets interesting when contrasted with so many of the other Founding Fathers who were just flat out elitist. Jefferson if you want to ride on Port Jefferson i wish he was still here to defend him. They both start academies, de right . University of ndvirginia and the academy in virginia and if you read their founding documents and this goes back to your previous panel, jeffersons greed for the university of virginia was to skim the top, the clean, the elite and train them for great leadership and franklin in his academy was to take every kid from every walk of life eand make them able to be more participatory in our economy and it was not supposed to be a selective place or the elite. I still think when you talk about publiceducation , thats what we have to regain the notion of. Its that education is not supposed to be a privilege for the elite. What was that like . So were having dinner in washington together and i have worked with ken a little bit, ken had come down to tulane and whe said who should i do next . And michelle and her father i guess robert smith at all helped do these Library Books and i said you got to do been franklin and heres why. Our country is becoming more fractured. Who is the person who tried to find Common Ground and it was at that dinner, that restaurant in jonestown that michelle and i convinced him to do it but it was an easy sell because i think can have a feel for Brian Franklin and he was the founder, two things about him that made him good for this. First of all he was the only middleclass and as you said most of them were land owning aristocracy like jefferson, madison or the merchant aristocracies like adams and john hancock families, whatever. We did not really have a middleclass nor in england where it was there a middleclass and then franklins greatest invention is inventing the concept of the middle class. Shopkeeper and being the backbone of american values. This whole idea of Middle America came out of that. Tocqueville et al. That. First of all democracy in america is the most quoted and at least read ever. Only about seven of us have read it and maybe Esther Prescott rented at newman but i do think that tocqueville gets something wrong that franklin gets right which is tocqueville said there was a disconnect in the tension between americans individualism and their association forming, that there always forming associations. But franklin said no, it is our barnraising, quilting bee instance that our individualistic but allow us to come together in voluntary associations. Tocqueville also said the issue of race and indigenous people. And he came down to new orleans and thats what he saw in 1840 or so. Youre right, tocqueville gets most things right. We get that right in a way but he gets that right. Franklins got that right but it doesnt have the same assessment. They all had the same, they all have that assessment. Jefferson have that to intellectually. Intellectually, right. But again, this is the hard for the privileged class in america who throughout history have wrestled with the philosophical enlightened view enof what is right and wrong and what is needed to feed their privilege. Thats why what you did before and what youve done in your book is a concept i have wrestled with every day and i love it when somebody gives me a new idea i have wrestled with enough which is when philanthropy comes away to protect the system that as american justice in it, thats a problem and that foundations have to deal with the underlying injustices not just the cells that the wealthycan feel have given back. But Andrew Carnegie didnt see a problem in the quality. He thought that god had interviewed men like him and rockefeller with a special talent and it wasnt about questioning. The fact that there were children falling into the iron pits because there was no osha didnt really affect them as that was what it took to make carnegie industries. With carnegie and rockefeller it was a double whammy which is you have to sense of almost godgiven privilege. But also a social darwinian is him and they believed because darwin had come along in the mid1860s and like well, its just survival of the fittest. That really america in that post reconstruction period through the Industrial Revolution and it took in your book you write about it the parties and rockefellers d and others that have a sort of a move forward in their thinking. But this is where your work on wilson and others, its also a period where American Eugenics Society was working and who were the founders of the eugenics movement. Harvard lapses funded by your foundation. But the reality is itself investing in the idea that was rooted in the notions of hierarchies and social construction of race but thats philanthropy. These were progressives, Great American families, philanthropists who believe that italians were not as smart and capable as british or scandinavian people. As he said earlier we think that was a long time ago but were not that far removed when mitch was talking about his father but that American Eugenics Movement is 1920s and its only when the nazis take it over it gives it a horrible stench that we actlike we never felt that way. And in her great book cast she says the nazi came to the American South and study the ways in which laws have been passed against minorities and i havent understood that before the book. I did a talk with her and said great book but she uncovered some really. It gets into a deeper thing which is why we wrestle with history and thats because we carved them up in marble and put them in the past so there are important because we wrestle with our history and this is something i fear for now when were wrestling with history this way or that way from the left and the right and awoke in the right way and everybody says dont teach itthat way, it might discomfort people. We do like ben franklin and keep that lectern and say what did i get wrong and lets wrestle with everything from science, our eugenics and my friend evan thomas just finished a book on drop the dropping of the atom bomb. That was something of a complex thing and we all have kneejerk reactions but we should take history and say what i use the word thats a horrible word but its called complex affiant and when any of our students says we had to do it that way andsay let me complex affiant for you. Because in a democracy complexity and messiness is part of it. Were losing the ability from everybody every reason from gerrymandering to money in politics to have people sit down and say theres a or complexity here, lets see if we can sort it out as opposed to going on either side. We grew up in this city, a complex place. Complex especially on race and particularly its useful having grown up here to recall all the first times that you understood race. Of scourse mitchs father moving was somebody but i can remember maybe 500 yards from here ill ask and, walking across ottoman park with my cousin Alan Kissinger and by then our maids and son of you was our age, we were going to the merrygoround in ottoman park and i was like five or six and my cousin said i want to be on the merrygoround and suddenly i stopped and started. I said i dont want to go, nobody can figure it out, i dont want to go and it occurred to me as i got closer there was a sign i had seen before but never knew or thought about and said whites only and we were with clyde who was our age in black and i just wanted to avoid having to go there so all of us in our lives especially in this place but more when i grew up and victoria cantrell was there. We at an early age developed a radar about it. Andy lack and others here we talk about this endlessly about the need to reengage with our radar on race. But walter i think people like you who are our intellectuals. You read lead a particular kind of life. Its easier for you. Im privileged enough to be that way. And you are privileged enough to be able to reject ideologies and tropes that are sent to you with the objective of dividing you from most of america but not everyone is that safe and secure. And so how do we think about those people who are, who do feel victimized. And resentful, i assume youre talking about whites is as well as lacks, this globalization, freetrade and outsourcing. May have made us this origination that they get left behind and youve already arrived on the, i know that especially when you read. I remember about six or as seven years ago before from was nominated, walking across the institute thinking about how everybody there was involved and said we all love freetrade. And weve taken trips across america when i was at Time Magazine and i began to see the resentments of the people who freetrade meant to go to walmart on a sunday afternoon, you get a flatscreen tv said. That was half the price of what had been a few years our earlier on monday warning they couldnt just catch the early bus to their maytag plant and there was a resentments building up and frankly our resentment that was somewhat racist and definitely antiimmigrant and how come everybodys trying to speak spanish in our schools and we cant get a job in a plant now etc. Those of us who believe in that davos consensus got it wrong. We were unaware of the legitimate resentment that were building up in society and the press prosperity of the 90s left people behind. I think thats a fair and assessment of what happened so i guess walter, where do we go from here . You are at a Great American university, got all these bright students. You have a platform, whats your counsel . I think it begins with reinventing ben franklin in us and in america that we should do a lot more here instead of saying it can never happen. I believe manufacturing shouldcome back. That good jobs are the heart of a stable society. Definitely thats what franklin believed so i think that as we face all these challenges around the world, theres a line from pogo, youre too young to remember what pogo was, it was a cartoon trip but he said we have met the enemy and he is us. The point was we have to create the type of Society People felt that they may have had 50 or 100 years ago. There was no generation in americadidnt feel the country would be better for their children that it was for them. So i think we have to rebuild america ability to create and produce things. And you think Benjamin Franklin gives us a guide. He gives us a guide because he believes it came from the msort of middle class and a Small Businesses able to grow for every apprentice to be able to then start an enterprise, to start a entrepreneurial culture. Thats what Market Street was built upon in the 1970s when franklin was there and thats what i do think sometimes we lose, we feel resentful not just as we lost power to the government but also big corporations and im like you, i believe in n the american some of the free markets and capitalism but we dont want people to be alienated and think that big corporations can cross us. Ive got kids my two line last that have great ideas for the company and services they want to do but the main thing they worry about is how could google crushed me if it becomes good so we have to have it consistent where people can start businesses and by the way, make it equitable, cassie is involved in entrepreneurs week and idea village which is to have a Revolving Fund for people unlike me who have a grand aunt and uncle , would get help if they needed can go to whitney back and have a mortgage to cosign to make sure everybody has an opportunity to you know, start something they believe in. Last i like you to address is because we are here at tulane and in many ways like the Great American universitys, tulane is grappling with the role of Higher Education in a democracy and id like you to reflect on what you think the role is and what are today the things that worry you and the things that give you reason for hope and encouragement because you are here. You are in the midst of it. As a historian i go back to ben franklin and what he said, what was the purpose of the university . Its to create good citizens of the country we were trying to become and create opportunities for each new generation. Sometimes we lose sight of that Higher Education but shaping good people who will become good citizens is the role of the university. You were close to and i was close to one of the most wonderful names who walked this earth, the late great Peter Collins at the university and he was a minister at church and i knew our graduation speaker but i do remember the sermon he gave on the day we algraduated which is called what we forgot to tell you yoand he said we told you this was a exclusive place and then made it more exclusive as you went up. What weve got forgot to tell you this is not about exclusivity, its about inclusivity because thats what your going to be judged on. How many people you brought into it and afterwards he told me the story later, somebody came up and he was saying what do you want to be and the person says i hope ill be successful. I want to be president of the United States and peter said aim higher. He said this university has produced a lot of powerful people and even produced a few president s but it hasnt always reduced kind people and good people who care about includingothers into it. Thats what we should have d taught you and thats what we forgot to tell you. So true and i think it reminds me of wb w. E. B. Dubois when he talksabout the talented ted. And the work of men like him and other elite blacks, want to cultivate that talent. Later in his life, he was challenged and he came to understand that it wasnt just about creating a coterie of elite blacks. But it was about creating an environment so that the other 90 percent could drive. And to equip themselves with the ability to lift others up. Rather than simply building leadership along the talented tense but then engage with the broader white elite community. And so in some ways he was in talking about the souls of black folks engaging him in his own excavation ideas that were based on a like this system and the Higher Education system which of course he went to harvard like you and was able to review and in his own framework as he grew older and wiser was challenged. Thats what professor gates will teach us about the boy as well as about franklin is he wasnt always perfect. What he did was he reflected on got this wrong just like franklin said i got the biggest thing slof all wrong. Slavery, i cant figureout how we move forward. Dubois said that to and that a the purpose of a universityto give you the humility to keep thinking. Ky think yourself im a really lucky person. Im here in the city of new orleans, im grateful and my gratitude will make me more inclusive but the other thing you should think is okay, lets question every belief i had the night before because im probably getting some things wrong ethats something weve lost as a society to want to get locked into your lease these days you get in your coach ever talk radio or cable news and we dont say maybe i was wrong about free fr trade and the dominoes consensus so maybe i was wrong about affirmative action and maybe i was wrong about that statute and we have to say ive got some of these thingswrong. That stems from that which is every moment of his life particularly Leonardo Da Vinci he would see something stop and try to find out more about it. He studied how the winds developed rainstorms and it helped him out rainstorms move up in acertain way. That curiosity about the simplest things, in Ben Franklins notebooks leonardos notebooks and albert einsteins its the same question that they asked which is why is the sky blue . All of us see a blue sky every dayor two. But when we are children we may ask why is it blue . We lose that curiosity about that every day wonders of nature and thats what the truly creative people do is they never outgrow their wonder years. Walter isaacson, you never cease to amaze so thank you walter for inviting me. Give it up for walter isaacson. [applause] sign up for our newsletter using the qr code on the screen to receive a schedule of upcoming programs, book festivals and more. Book tv every sunday on cspan2 or anytime online booktv. Org. Television for serious readers. Be uptodate in the latest in publishing with book tvs podcast about books with current Nonfiction Book releases plus bestseller lists as well as Industry News and trends through insider interviews find about books on cspan now or wherever you get your podcasts. Cspan now features your unfiltered view of whats happening in washington live and ondemand. Keep up with todays biggest events with live streams of floor proceedings and hearing from congress, white house events, the courts, campaigns and more from the world of politicsall at your fingertips. You can stay current with the latest episodes of washington journal and find scheduling information for cspans tv network and radio plus a variety of compelling podcasts. Cspan now is available at the apple store and google play download it for free today. Your front seat washington anytime, anywhere. Weekends are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History tv documents americas stories and on sunday book tv brings you the latest and Nonfiction Books and authors. Funding for cspan2 comes