Transcripts For CSPAN2 His 20240706

It is is a rich, deep, multilayered portrait, not simply george floyd, but of america. And these two authors i have worked with over the years at the Washington Post. Let me start told you he is toto is currently the White House Bureau for the post. He came to the post in 2019. Hes the last three president s previously had been at Bloomberg News for five years where he reported on politics and policy from both washington and florida. Hes reported from five continents, more than 20 countries as part of his president bill press coverage, he began his career at the miami herald where he covered real estate natural and crime all things florida is well known for and sometimes covered all at once. Robert is is now a newly minted writer at the new yorker, just left the Washington Post one month ago. Yeah and and he got a farewell unlike any that weve ever seen at the Washington Post, which included a version of a of a of a song from hamilton that was especially adapted to to his career when he was at the post was a National Political Enterprise Reporter he focused on politics, policy and changing american identity and has traveled the country to chronicle how the political discussion in the Nations Capital affects the lives of everyday america. Before coming to the post, he spent five years working at the miami herald. These are two superb journalists, but it also turns out are superb book writers. And so i want to dive right into this. This, this this project started as a series in the Washington Post. And then you decided to to go and turn it a book. Robert, what was the story that you set out to tell in the beginning . Well, when we started if we go back to july 2020, we were thinking about ways to tell the story of george floyd. And sadly, we know that when Something Like this happens, that is a black man is shot or killed by Police Officers. Its typically a standard profile that a News Organization does. Its usually a little long. Most often its not very good or very indepth and there was this real desire to do something, met the moment and we had a meeting and during meeting we thought, what if we were able to think about systemic racism through the of a Single Person because if we were able to do then maybe we could help people understand these ideas that everyone were talking about were not theoretical ideas. They werent academic exercises. They actually had impact in the life of a real and then it was said, well, maybe the persons george floyd. And at point we knew very little about him but as were doing series and later on when we started interviewing people for over course of this book, we really iced that and almost every these ideas, the residue of racism in this country had impacted life of george floyd, who was an ambitious, complicated and along the way we wanted know who is george floyd and what was it like to live in his america . And the more we learned about george floyd, the more were fascinated by him. And i think we ended up we ended up liking and liking learning about him in way that neither of us would have expected. It told you how difficult it to tell this story and how did you think about organizing it . Because its its its a story about george floyd but really is, as robert just said, the history of racism in america and it has has affected so many people. How did think about this and how difficult it to do thats a thats a good weve thought a little bit about this as weve you know had some these discussions since we wrote the book. One of the most difficult parts of this process trying to tell the story, an entire country trying and trying to tell a history that dates back four centuries and tell it through the life of one person. And so it was difficult, but oh, sure. Is that a little better . Okay. All right. The difficulty in this in telling a story where were were multiple and, one of the things we wanted to do was tell the story, america, through George Floyds life and. It helped that we started off with the series and the series allowed different reporters. There were, about six of us, to take different pieces of. The puzzle, different pieces of George Floyds life, different systems that operate in america. There was a story about his experience with, the housing system growing up in public housing. Robert did a really great indepth story, the health care system, and george experience with Subpar Health care. There was a story about policing and the justice systems and we were able to sort of take those different pieces and as we expanded the project into book project, we learned that all of these various systems with george floyd in a way that allowed us to see how systemic racism operates in the 21st century and. So that was the difficult part. Writing this book was sort of to be able to showcase systemic racism because doesnt operate the way it did 50, 60 years ago, where it was in much more blatant now, you know, its harder to see. Its very well entrenched into society. And so we had to dig deep to figure how to tell George Floyds story, how to tell his experience, how to explain his experience in america, and show people what systemic racism looks like as it operates in the 21st century, not just when someone is killed on camera, which is very brutal and very visceral, but when it happens behind the scenes, when it happens in schools and what happens in a judges courtrooms, when it happens in hospitals. And so it was important for us to be able to showcase that through his life. And it was difficult. It became easier as we learn more about him, as we talked to more people who knew him. And we were able to showcase that his life was, you know, in intersected with systemic long before he met Derek Chauvin may of 2020. A robert the the number of people that you talk to is impressive. Obviously, the, the intimacy with which you were there, therefore able to tell story of George Floyds life just the last hours of his life but his entire life is very impressive. How difficult was it to find those people and and tell people about Shawanda Jackson in particular her and finding her. Yeah so were friends here. We can tell some secrets. So we we talk, we we there. We did 400 interviews for the course the book over essentially the maybe six months but the truth the matter is we did close to 600 we could account for four but it was probably closer to six. And these were times where wed got up super early in the morning wed be in different parts of the country and wed just go and try to talk as many people as we could who had known george floyd, i got haircuts from his barber tattoos, sat with his siblings over dinner tables. I went the place where he went to rehab. We the streets. He walked. We went to the clubs he went to, we went to the churches he had gone to and along those ways there was this big curiosity that i had about how george floyd had gotten to the corner store, which is in a place known as cup foods. On the day where he met Derek Chauvin. And it was sad that he had gone there to pay a cell phone bill. And i always thought that was a little curious as cup foods wasnt in his neighborhood good. And i didnt know anyone who went to pay his cell phone bill in person. And so there were two people who were in the car, him and ones name was Shawanda Hill and the other ones name was morris hall and morris had pleaded the fifth during the trial. He did not. He did not speak. And shawanda took the stand was essentially a hostile witness because she was mad, because she was called by the defense people who are of the people who are defending derek and. So we set out to go find them. And i had a friend from college who was out and she had taken a picture of chauvin and watched her home one night and i called and said, well, do you have information for her . And my friend who lives in chicago said . To me, i dont. But i think, i remember the apartment where she lived. So help out i fly to minneapolis and can go search for it together. This is why you should have friends in life. And so and so. She did and we drove to this apartment. Its right off the highway. It look very nice. And its one of those old apartment with all the numbers and, the buttons and she said, i dont know. The apartment number. And i said, well, lets see what will happen if we open, push the door open, maybe its unlocked, then we push the door open and it was unlocked and there are four floors and i, well i can start on the four, i can start on top and you can start on the bottom and well see if we can find her. And as we walked in, i heard a voice from a drunken man, the basement, go home early and a i said, were looking for a shawanda. And he said, shawanda. And and then he gave the number and i said, yes, thats exactly thats exactly who were looking for. And we walked we walked to the Apartment Building and i knocked on her door. And she said throughout the building and apparently everyone here believes they should speak like. Right, well, who is it . And i said, shawanda, my name is robert. Were working. Im working on a book about george floyd. And she opened the door and as she opened the door, a knife fell from the top of the hands. And she she looked at me and said, working on a book about floyd and . I said, yeah. And she said, she started and said, i have to be in it. And that was really the first time that she had sat with someone and gave this accounting of what had happened. But yeah, it was a bit of reporters luck and sort of like a sense of earnestness about the that i think made the difference. It told you you have alluded this, but the history of systemic racism in this country goes back hundreds of years and one element of this book which i found fascinating was the story George Floyds ancestors and describe for people what actually happened to his family and what it tells us about why black people in this country have struggled in the ways that so many have had so to to tell the story of floyds life. We had to go back hundreds of years to tell the story of his family. We knew that we wouldnt be able to tell the story and answer the question why george floyd came into the world. Poor if we didnt start back several generations. And so we started off during the series that we wrote the Washington Post talking to family members. And there was this family law that there had once been a very wealthy ancestor in George Floyds family history, but all that wealth had been stripped away long time ago, long before george floyd came on the scene. And so was very intriguing to us at the time, used it in the series, but we sort of knew there more to the story and there was a more rich story to tell about the black american experience, his family story. And so, you know, we dug deep into the archives, talked to more family members. We looked up property records. We up Old Newspaper clippings from, you know. The early 1900s and found out and went unanswered, etc. Ecommerce pulled all the census. The records from the late 1800s and found out that george floyd was the great great, great grandson of who was born enslaved and his great grandfather was also born enslaved in north carolina, but received his freedom after the civil war. As a young boy. And very quickly after receiving his freedom, he got to work and realized he had an opportunity to chase the American Dream, that the hard work that he was doing now could allow him to amass some level of support for himself, level of wealth for himself. And so over 30 years, George Floyds great great grandfather worked hard, had a very large family. And that family was able to build a nest egg of wealth, owning about 500 acres of land in the late 1800s. And so we were able substantiate the family law that there was this wealthy heir are wealthy, that george floyd would have been the heir of but also you know during this period in American History, this was a time of racial terrorists at, a time when you had plessy versus ferguson in the late 1800s, you had legalized racism, you had racial terror, you had the looting of black wall street in 1921. And during that period, George Floyds great great grandfather essentially dealt with because it was a wealthy man and he had all of that land stripped away through fraud, through you know, fraudulent tax liens and, you know, business deals that were essentially schemes take away his wealth. And so over the course of the next generations, he lost all of his wealth. George floyds great, his grandparents, his parents were all sharecroppers and they worked from dawn to dusk in north carolina, working hard backbreaking work. But they were unable to build any wealth for themselves. They were unable to amass any wealth to pass down to george floyd. So that was how we answered the question of how george floyd was born poor. It was a story that is very relevant to a lot of black americans who have similar experiences, know that their ancestors worked hard for decades and generations and were unable to amass. That level of wealth that you would expect from, you know, a family that works so hard in this country and so we took the story back far because we wanted to tell the full story of george floyd, america which is an america that you allows certain people work hard and not reap the benefits of their work, while others able to amass generational wealth and george floyd came into the world and to deep poverty. His mother was a sharecropper he lived in an outhouse or a home, had an outhouse and had no running water. And so that was the beginning, the origin of his story. And was important for us to draw the clock back, to be able to tell his story through, the lens of his ancestors experience in america. Its one of a number of heart wrenching stories in the book, and i wonder, id like to hear from both you on this question. How did doing that kind of. Change your view of American History . And being black in america and and how in a sense, how painful was it to go through that history . It was on on one hand, painful because, you know, you see hard work that his family had put in and. You sort of could envision a different version, america, in which george floyd enters the world as a wealthy heir and someone who all the opportunities in the world because his ancestors had been industrious and had worked hard. And so it was painful in that sense. But at in the other sense it was also gratifying to be able to put on the into paper and into the record this part of his family story because not very many people know about it and this is a proud family. This is a family has a proud american story. A proud American History. And so it was gratifying be able to substantiate some of the family lore, even some things that family members did not know. They didnt have access to some of these property records and some of these old, you know, records that are in the archives. And so being able to put it down on paper and say, you know, this is a proud family that has worked hard in america and you know there are a lot of stereotypes that come when you do have a family that has impoverished members and have all of that, you know, troubles that come along with poverty. But being able to tell the story of the hard work that went into George Floyds Family Experience there was it was gratifying be able to put that on paper and and to hear from family members about how gratified their were they were to see their story written in a way that gave justice to their familys american experience. Going back to the early 1800s. And as we were dealing with the pastor also dealing with the ideas that came in the present, i mean, when we when we started writing the book, we had no idea if Derek Chauvin would be convicted. We had no idea if the city was going to go on fire. We didnt know what was going to happen with these debates about book banning and, how Critical Race Theory would turn you know from the moment we started the book, the books that everyone was supposed to read when we started were the books that. States were saying absolutely you should not read. By the time we ended. And along that. Its not along, along, along the way, though, youre dealing folks who, you know, theyre dealing with a lot of ghosts and its good i told you and had each other, but its also that we got to be report with these people who are living through these experiences. Ill tell you one thing, dan there was a day and i started the day church with George Floyds brother, felonious, who felt needed to go because the trial had gotten really hard. He had seen very gruesome photos of his brothers body. And hes at the church and he can feels floyds spirit out there and he becomes completely overwhelmed and the next reporting pass that i had for the day was was going to go to a rally with Courtney Ross, who is George Floyds last girlfriend a white woman, and she had been very hesitant about going to these things because she was worried that might Say Something that would cause a mistrial but she had made an agreement with a friend that she was going to go to the rally. And i was with our photog, a person who used to live in arizona named joshua lot. And i said to joshua, you know, after we go to the rally, im going to take a break because its a little overwhelming and we got there. It was a rally. It to celebrate the birthday of a man who after a police was found in a dumpster disfigured broken up in 2009. There are no cameras then his lover believed that Justin Teigen had been beat up and thrown into the dumpster. The police. The police we chased him and he just ended up in a dumpster and we dont know what happened. And everyone the police and were at this and you know, weve covered both of us collectively. Weve covered a number of these sorts of events but i had never heard of Something Like this. And i began to realize that there are so many people within that space in this one city in america where all of them had people they loved who had been killed by a Police Officer. And no one ever believed there was another. And as were as this was happening, as sir, rallies ending. Im walking back to courtney, going back to the hotel and someone left the text message and goes, they shot another one. They killed another one. And that was an 18 year old boy named, dante. Right. And you remember he, a Police Officer mistook her taser for a gun and killed him. That man dante also happened. Be a former student of Courtney Ross and while this is happening it became clear to me in a way that i had never felt before. After youre doing all the reporting had done that races seem itself you know we think about it as the original stain of america, the stain on the fabric but its something a lot more pernicious. It moves and all around i was with people who are just their lives and this force hit them and it completely changed them and. When you see that happening with people you know as a journalist its people who believe that you have to do something in the world to make it a little more right. It you in a way that i never fully felt before that you know the work we is a part of being able to create a Better Society totally the story that that you both tell is of a george floyd who who basically through his entire life went in and out of the criminal justice who often seemed on the brink of of of achieving the goals he had set out for himself, only to be kind of pulled back down almost at every turn, who was george floyd. What was his life like . Yeah, im glad asked that question. George floyd was, as robert said, he was complicated. He was a striver. He was someone who was memorable. It was very easy for us to do a lot of these interviews because people had very memories of george floyd. And when we would talk to them, they would just jump into mimicry of him because was comical and funny and interesting and different. He was six feet, six inches, more than £250. And and he was someone would go into a room and shake everyones hand because didnt want them to be intimidated by his size. He would go around saying, i love to people, strangers and, children and men and women because wanted to put more love in the world. He was someone who had a number of challenges from beginning of his life and sometimes made mistakes. And a lot of times he found that when did make those mistakes that the society that he lived in was graceless towards him, that the society met him with harshness when he made mistakes and he was someone who owned owned up to a lot of those mistakes, we had the benefit reading some of his diary entries and letters that he wrote to friends, letters he wrote to himself and, you know, he wrestled with demons. He wrestled with the forces that he said, were trying to pull him down. And the difficulties that faced in trying to stay on the right path as he got older in life, as he struggled, find work, as he got caught up in the criminal justice system, he struggled to break an addiction. And when struggled with addiction his issue his medical issue was met with the harshness of the criminal justice system. And so over and over again, we we see in life striving. We a glimmer of hope in his life and then we see a either fate or, bad luck or systemic racism. Get in way and bring him down. And thats one of the things that we experienced. We reported out this story as we wrote this story. We wrote rewrite it as a as a as a great american, as someone who as a story of someone who was a striver, who was chasing opportunities, chasing ambitions, and often falling and often falling short of those ambitions, getting back up and trying again. And so up until his last days where he, you know, his hometown of houston to move to minneapolis because he wanted to get treatment for, his Substance Abuse issues, he wanted to leave his past behind. So he left his family, left everything behind to move to minneapolis, to enter into a treatment program. But the pandemic hit. He lost his job and he covid and he ended up on the corner where a Police Officer who was known as a thumper, known as someone who did not offer grace to, people who were who he came into contact with came into the scene. And so those final moments of his life where hes you know, george floyd is screaming for his mother, where hes crying out, where hes i cant breathe, where hes telling his friends that he loves them. That was the george floyd that his friends knew who wanted chance at life and saw those chances either stripped away or saw the mistakes that he made amplified by the system. And so we got to know someone who was trying hard and was every bit enamored with the American Dream as any other american from from the beginning someone who was optimistic but over the course of his life over course of his experience, we see that that dream starts to fade and we see the difficulties that he face start to consume him. And so we we wanted to be able to tell his in a way that showcased all of the nuances of his of his life as an individual and the nuances of his american as well and his through his own life, you set it against, in a sense, the system that every american, black, white, brown, whatever deals with but particularly the the social policies that affect people like george floyd housing policy, education policy, health policy, criminal justice system. Robert in all of those a sense there was a strike against someone like george floyd and in ways that we didnt fully realize when we started i mean, going back to family history, thinking about just how difficult it was for them, even though had wealth at the beginning to maintain wealth. George family was never a family that did not work in this country. They always stayed. And yet at the end of day, by the time george floyd comes of age, hes in a school, hes in a segregated project. Segregated because the federal government thought it was a good for it to be so in a School System that was losing weight, that did not want have their black other kids sit in classrooms with black kids with a School System that did not believe when they needed to trade teachers said trade one for one and the white schools got some great black teachers and the black schools did not get great white teachers. And yet george floyd by time he was in second grade, he was still reading at level. He had these great dreams of becoming a Supreme Court justice, wrote about it and if you grew up in a system like that, writing at grade levels really, really hard but he doing it and so happens right what happens a bright mind the bright black mind who wants to be a lawyer and up like george floyd . Well hes big and tall and people say like, you dont become lawyers, learn how to play basket. And thats what they encourage him to do. He gets there. Thats what he focuses on life and he runs into standardized tests in this country, which we know now has a strong bias against people who grew up like george floyd is unable to get college. By the time he gets there, he gives in to the economics of the neighborhood. There is the war on drugs waiting for right when he gets there, no one offers him a treatment. Even the federal government said going to send billions of dollars to these communities to counteract some of the heavy policing. But when we did the record checks, when we looked at the registrar that money never came. And so you all of these things at the beginning but then sort learning to live with them is a different thing. You come out how easy is for you if you have a criminal record to get a professional license in texas at the time, one in three jobs required license that george floyd could not get. Thats a level of jobs that are completely wiped out when you go to get systems are you when you to get Substance Use treatment are you in a system that understands that some of the unique challenges that you feel as a black man largely fear of death fear that someone kill you is treated and taken seriously and not seen as Something Like schizo farina. So these are the things that just begin to up one of the things that one of a Public Health professor who helped us out with the book, he said at some point you just have to understand that all of these things pile up in you and you have to ask yourself, how do you wake up in the morning and believe that there are still possibilities for you in america now . That challenge, right, isnt to george floyd, and thats why that at the moment when you see him in the video confronted by this Police Officer and he gives that look, i think you know, its a look that every black man this country saw and could recognize because what you saw was a fear of. And then as hes dying, so you see the uniqueness. George floyd, right. The fact that he used his last minutes on earth to profess to people to say, please, mr. Officer, that he believed that in some way that by in last gasps that expressing his humanity might change outcome both speaks to the uniqueness of him as an individual but it also speaks to like larger universal idea of what means to be black in this country. Tolu you alluded to this, but he went to minneapolis to try to put his life together and there were moments in which he did put his life together, and yet he ended up on that street with Derek Chauvins on his neck for more than 9 minutes. Describe up to that day kind of what was the arc of existence in minneapolis . Yeah, george floyd grew up in houston, texas. He went to school in. Houston. Houston was what he knew. It was where his community was. It was where his family was. And so it was quite the decision that he made in 17 when he decided to leave of that behind, to go to a place he had never been before. Minneapolis, minnesota. And he did so at the urging of a local who was essentially a minister to lost souls. And in the the third ward of houston, people who had hit their bottom bottom who had hit rock bottom went to this pastor and tried to find a way out. And he would send people out of. Texas, in part because he knew that, you know, one, people needed to get away from the trials and the temptation, those that were in their home, but also because they knew he knew that texas not have the kind of social safety net that you could find in other states and more left leaning states like minnesota, where had expanded medicaid, where they had treatment, where they were a little bit more forgiving for. People who had criminal records, like robert said, because george floyd had a criminal record, couldnt get a job. Essentially, he was blocked off the majority of jobs that were available. He couldnt get a professional. And so he to minneapolis after he hit rock bottom, he knew that his life was not going to get any better. He told who he spoke to that he only saw two outcomes for himself if he stayed in houston, was going back to jail or being killed or dying of an overdose and he decided to change life. And he went to minneapolis and he got there in 2017, and he got a job. He got into a treatment center. He was looking like things were moving in the right direction for he got he found he fell in love. He was, you know, making enough money be able to send money home to his family he was clean he had gone through this Rehab Program and things things were looking good. And as to Roberts Point that everything piles up, he found quickly that you cant run away from some of the trials and tribulations that come along with being a black man in america one of the people who he was in treatment with ended up becoming his roommate. It was another guy who was big and who had moved from another state, and so they had a lot in his name was eric cornely and. People called him big e and they decided to become roommates together because they had so much in common and. They needed a place to stay and. And this is all in the book, but to cut the story short, a bit. George floyd comes home after working a double shift one night and finds his roommate passed out on the couch and finds his roommate has overdoses and relapsed and overdosed, and that sends him into a bit of a tailspin because he realizes that even if you away from your home, even if you get treatment, even if you do all the things that are right, the specter of death is just a step away. And so that sends him reeling a bit and not long after that the pandemic hits and he finds himself out of a job he finds himself losing a lot of the money that he had been able to to make because he had to pay his bills. He didnt have his roommate anymore. And in minneapolis, which sort had this mirage of being this place is progressive and being this place that, you know, its egalitarian for george floyd. He quickly found that a lot of the same challenges that he had in houston reared their head for him in minneapolis. And so it became a place where by the time he meets Derek Chauvin, hes really struggling. Hes, you know, just trying to make meet, just trying to survive, just trying to keep things together. And hes in a pretty rough state by the time he meets that officer. And so it is of the sadder parts of the story because we do see him make that decision and make that to leave his hometown and chase a better. And hes doing it for quite a while but, you know, a combination of bad luck and and misfortune and, a number of things that were outside of his control, a few things that were in his control seemed to sort of conspire against him to bring him to that corner on may 25th, 2020, and to bring him to that corner with Derek Chauvin. Robert, talk a little bit about derek, but also that the last i mean, the the video that most people have seen is horrifying and terrifying but what else i mean, you drew so much out out of that video, i mean, you all you know, got a lot out of the video you describe in the book. But what were those last hours like for him . How did he how did get to that spot . And as fate would have it to run into . Derek chauvin yeah. So george floyd. He was hanging out with some of his friends. He was there because he was struggling to stay clean. The thing that we know he wrote was talking about terrible his life. And he says, life sucks, but life doesnt suck, which is kind of his philosophy he and he was with a friend they were make tiktok videos together and he they were going to barbecue and so he went out she gave him the keys to her a mercedes suv, asked him to go out and buy some charcoal. Now theyre supposed to hang out later in the day. And derek and george floyd had some time on his hands. So he picked up one of his friends who was, you know, who was dealing drugs and the friend sort tries to get him in on the action. Says, i know youre struggling, the money is good. You should come back to this. George floyd says, no, he doesnt want to do that. But they go around that day doing various tasks and. The last task that his friend wants do is go to this place, cub foods, which an Electronics Store in the back of it because he wants to pick up a refurbished tablet. Now it is during that period where there is this twisted theres this argument about whether of them has paid with a counterfeit dollar bill and no one knows where that 20 bill came from. We spoke to everyone no one knew, knew where it came from. George floyd was not to pilfer or carry counterfeit money. So all very unusual. And then he meets derek and we spent a lot of time trying to learn about Derek Chauvin. And we tried. We contacted probably about 150 people who had met him over course of his life, had gone to Elementary School with him, high school with him, family members, people who were in the Police District with him. What we know, Derek Chauvin, is he loved being a Police Officer, was a very important part of his identity. We know that his was a former former pageant. She was the first man. And mrs. Minnesota and was known for taking in hmong refugees. And we know that after incident, one terrible incident in which a police put their knee on a mans neck and end up killing him, that was named David Cornelius smith. Everyone in minneapolis gets trained on how to use whats known as the neck restraints. It comes in different forms but 18 days after Derek Chauvin learns the technique, he employs for the first time and, we found at eight other incidents in, he employed this technique was taught to him by the Police Department on use on other people, including one with a teenage boy for more than 17 minutes. That boy survived. George floyd did not. So what we learned about, Derek Chauvin, was he was nothing was extraordinary. Him as a Police Officer, people who knew him would call him aggressive in the context of policing generally but not aggressive in the context of his department he too was the victim of this residue of racism. How people learn to treat folks who look like george floyd and a number of those other when he used this technique he said the same thing he gave the same reason, which was the person was much bigger. I was Derek Chauvin was five nine and is five nine. And hundred £43. George floyd is six six and £225. I think both of you have said that that that when you set out on this journey, one of the questions that you wanted to try to come terms with was, was there justice for george floyd told you . Where do you come down on that today . Justice is a very difficult word in this context because for the people who knew george floyd most intimately, for his family members, justice would be george floyd never being killed over 20 bill for, the people who marched after george floyd died, justice looked different. And there were a number of things they were calling for. There are Different Things to different people are calling for. There was everything from defund the police to, you know, reform the police to, broader calls, systemic racism to be eliminated from different systems in the country. And so when we look back almost three years later, you know, how much of was accomplished . Not nothing there was definitely some some change. We have seen, you know, a number of Police Departments outlaw some of the techniques that were used against george floyd. We have seen, you know, some action at the federal level with executive orders. Weve seen a number of corporations that they want to be more engaged on the issue of diversity and the issue of, you know, calling systemic racism for what it is. But when it comes sort of the broad systemic change that people took to the streets for people all over the country and droves and thousands and thousands and, you know, millions of people in this country and around the world marched. The change, you know, almost three years later, seems not quite as momentous as. The movement that it sparked after George Floyds death and not only have we seen a fading of a lot of that momentum, weve seen backlash. Weve seen, you know, politicians use Critical Race Theory as this boogeyman that people can use as a political weapon. Weve seen, as robert said, books being that deal with like race in difficult subjects. Weve a certain level of fatigue with these discussions and weve seen other People Killed by police just a few months ago we saw Tyree Nichols being killed in memphis and so the kinds of overarching change people were calling for is still you know, remains to be achieved. But one of the things that we wanted to do with this book and we titled the last chapter, the book american hope, was to put into some of the experiences that black americans and americans the spectrum have experienced in this country for a long time. And that is that change happens in fits and starts. It happens at a slow pace. It happens with progress, sometimes seeming, but it happens over the arc of history. And so we tried to put that context the into the book as well because i think theres still a lot of hope that some of the change that needs to take can still happen and that the incremental shifts that weve seen since george floyd died in the kinds of discussions that weve had, the fact that a book like this can exist, you know, thats something that shows that change can take place. But its hard fought. Its not its not the kind of thing that will happen automatically, even with generations starting to shift, even with us becoming a more diverse country. Its clear that that is not enough for the kinds of equality that we are all seeking. And so were hoping that people will read this book and feel the same level of the same level of initiative to to change things they might have felt after george floyd died, because we captured not only his death, which was brutal and gruesome and captured on video, but we captured his life, which if you, you know, spent a the 48 spend time going over the 46 years that he was on earth. You will see a lot of that were brutal and heinous that just werent captured on camera and werent happening in the moment. Theyre happening long periods of time. They happening schools that were underfunded. They were happening in courtrooms where judges not deciding to be fair. They were happening in alleys where a Police Officers were roughing people up because knew they would not be held accountable. So it was important for us to showcase that because in order for people to change, to want to change, theyre going to have to know the ways that racism often operates in the country. And so that change is still a ways off, but were hoping that with books like this and with people being willing to engage with this subject and talk about these things that kind of change will happen in the future. Before we turn to questions from the audience, i want to ask more. Question robert, of you to speak for the both of you. I think people would be interested to know what what it was like to work collaboratively on a book that is both as really as complex as this book is and a sense is emotional and powerful is this book what what whats the writing process like . How did you divide up the research in the reporting and and just talk a little bit about reading one side of, you know, you had to do it so quickly in a more serious level that you know, till you and i, weve known each other since our days at the miami herald. I think its important that we liked each other. We continue to like each other people i dont know i am anyway but not always the case with collaborators. Yeah but i think it its also helpful that you know, till the end we dont see things in exactly the same way and thats to our benefit because we were able be strong in areas where i the other is not taboo. Well never miss a deadline had to learn never to miss a deadline because i knew tony wasnt going to and in terms you know we shared everything with each other wed been to different places with over the course of the six months we were probably in person with one another probably two or three days out of those six months and. We were recording all our interviews in a big, large file in the wonderful cloud, the web, and we pulled them and our editor was reading the interviews as well. We started with a very intense outline and we mostly adhered that outline. So thats how it worked collaboratively. But i think sort of on the sort of more cosmic level it was important that we not only liked each, but we respected one another and we could come to each other when, you know, things were rough or tough and needed someone to just say like this is a lot of, you know, im my cat would have loved me sleeping more with him than on with taylor at four in the morning those are the breaks came all right lets go to the audience for questions as there is a cspan boom mic here. So ive waited till happens but here you have the first question and theres the book. George floyd mom had the talk with him as black parents have to do in america did your have the talk with and did walking in his make you feel as vulnerable as he was despite your status in this country. Yeah for me my brother my brother. More than five years older than me. I remember day when he came Home High School and said a Police Officer threw him against the wall. He was probably 13 or 14. And i remember the look of terror in my eyes when she had to explain this might not an aberration for us. Thats very difficult thing to learn. The other truth of matter is, you know, sometimes people ask why we got to live like. We got to live. And George George floyd did not get live. And because people ask the question, its something that i wrestle with the truth of the matter is i do im not 46 years old i do not know i will get to live longer than george floyd gets to live. The biggest between my mortality and his mortality is. I had i didnt meet Derek Chauvin, may 25th, 2020, and thats a reality. I mean, to me, that was sort of like the brunt fun. The mental truth of it is when we talked, you know, i, you know joan didion would say we write and in our for ourselves to live but in this case i mean it fund the mentally felt like that you know that we were we were writing for own lives and for our own children to be able to live fuller, more unencumbered than to live. And i got to live. And just to add to that, want to read just from that section of the book where George Floyds mother gives him the talk very quickly it says they were young black males from the lowest socioeconomic bracket, a status she knew would leave them to to a gantlet of potential hazards. A simple mistake could them their freedom, a moment of carelessness could cost them their lives growing in america you already have two strikes, she told floyd and his brothers. And youre going to have to work three times harder than everybody else if you want to make it in this world, because nobody is going to look out for you, youre going to have to look out for yourself. Now, you might think that thats, you know, harsh from a parent, but that is what was necessary for someone growing up in the kind of community that george floyd grew up in. And so ive heard similar things growing up as well, that you do have to work twice as hard, youre not going to get the benefit of doubt and people arent going to out for you. And so its a harsh message that you, you know, to think about it that you might give to a young child. But unfortunately has become a necessary message for for young black children in this country because of all the systemic racism can rear its head not only in policing, but in other systems as well well. Yes, maam. Hi. I go to the toussaint mack. Mack when i go to the website and i look through different. It was at the library the next day saw your book. Im from near minneapolis. Thought ive heard so much but i got it. I read it for two days. I put it down. It was so thorough, so factual, so much there. I never would have dream of learning. And the first half of what was his history. But the second half that got into the trial and how things went and how things came out and keith and even al sharpton, it is the most incredible thing ive read in years. And you will be banned in florida and. Texas. Oh, but but its its everybody should read it. Everybody. Thank so much. One more question. I think we have time for lady on this far side. As a as a follow up i was living in saint paul when george floyd was murdered. So this a hard memory for me but i wanted to know is there any Forward Movement on any work in his name . His honor is the George Floyd Square going to be, you know, what is the of the work thats coming out of this horror . Well, the the floyd family, they gave a half Million Dollars to that area that came out of the financial settlement with the city to help do something. I mean, as a person who lives in saint paul, you know, its very complicated thing that tears at the intersection of memory but also safety infrastructure like every other thing in this country when you enter slides the idea of race into it somehow things more complicated so were not really sure what will but i think for foundationally in terms of the kinds of discussions that we have and you know this country, you know were seeing bit of a dialectical movement right between the thesis and the antithesis. But i think its important to note that the reason were having these conversations the reason why florida is a question is because there is a true real understanding in this country that we have some demons and some ghosts that we need to acknowledge, which totally will last word from you. I know. I dont know that i can add to that. Oh, my gosh, robert, i would i would just first thank everyone for for coming and say that we wrote this book to tell a story of a Single Person, but also to tell the story of america and america that an america that needs to constantly change and, improve and and never get complacent. We can think that, you know, weve had a black president and or a diversifying and, you know, there are a number of reasons to to to to want to rest on our laurels but i think the death of george floyd and fact that weve continue to see people become hashtag is a clear sign that theres much work that needs to be done. And we all can work to educate ourselves. Writing this book was an educational experience for us as authors and so we all can, can, can take a step toward, you know, becoming more educated about another americans experience, an experience that maybe were as familiar with that would us to empathize with, allow us to see george floyd before a hashtag and maybe understand his story, what his america is like, and empathize with what that experience was like. And so thats the goal of this. This book. And, you know, we hope that more people will read it and engage with that goal, because we all have a role to play in that process. If it was an educational for you all to write the book for anybody who reads it, it is also an education. And you can you will see. You can see from this conversation and you will see from the book. Why this was a finalist in the National Book award, welldeserved, robert and told his friends are sorry that it wasnt the winner but nonetheless its its its everything that you can imagine. I would like you to give two gentlemen a big round applause. And joining us now, booktv, its university of arizona susan crane, author of Nothing Happened a history how and why you write ok