Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Water Shortages In The West 20240707

[inaudible conversations] >> good morning everybody. i'm pleased to call the subcommittee meeting on conservation climate, forestry and natural resourcesli to order and i'm also grateful to ranking member marshall for his partnership in organizing today's hearing on western water resilience. i know he shares my concerns about the unprecedented drought the west faces especially as it relates to the declining water levels in the ogle la la aquifer. our purpose this morning is simple, to sound the alarm about the water crisis in the americn west. the west has not been i this dry in 1200 years. 1200 years. and if we don't get our act together here it's going to not only put our western agriculture risk but the american west as we know it. my i states it is that the headwaters the colorado river which starts in the rockies before cuttingst across 1400 mis to the sea of cortez. the colorado river basin is the lifeblood of the american southwester and provides the drinking water for 40 million people across seven states and 30 tribes. it ear gates 5 million acres of agricultural land. it underpins the west 26 billion-dollar outdoor recreation and tourism and it is running out of water. the two largest reservoirs in the nation or lake powell and lake mead are at the lowest levels they have been since they were filled over the years ago the late powell has dropped more than 30 feet just in the last few years but the water crisis is not limited to the colorado river basin for the most recent data from u.s. drought monitor found that more than 50% higher and take u.s. united states is experiencing severe drought in right now more than 75% of the western region is seeing severe drought. these conditions threatened. marmara -- farmers and ranchers of the as this and the communities that rely on water to support their families and their like the hoods and every committee in the west and frankly threats our way of life in the west. farmers like pitch dryland wheat farmer near akron ohio told me he's had to tear up nearly one third this land because there wasn't enough water. he's also had to sell a 10th of his herd because there's not enough grass to graze his cattle. paul is a rancher and grand county colorado members on water from the colorado used to flow 6000 cubic feet for second. today he said they are lucky to have 1000 cubic feet. second. or grower from the north valley told me he's lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in the last three years from drought. there is no longer even a slim margin for error in our production he said. the farmers is the same county james henderson said it used to take one art irrigated soil and now takes 16 hours because the ground is soth parched and the main reason for all of this is climate change, rising temperatures mean less snowpack in the rockies which means less runoff feeder rivers and that means less water for farmers and ranchers in communities across the west and on top of that the rise in temperatures means whatever water makes it into our rivers evaporates and goes into the ground mark rupee because it's so dry. rithis is a five alarm fire in e westfordne when hurricanes and other natural disasters strike the east coast or theas gulf states washington springs into action to help those communities. that's what the federal government is supposed to do, bring the full power of resources to the american people together to help our fellow citizens. we haven't seen anything like that kind of response in the western water crisis even though its consequences i would argue are far more wide reaching than any natural disaster and that's just water. i haven't even mentioned how climate change has incinerated our forests blanketing our communities and smoke from olvera street three largest wildfires in colorado's history were all in 2020. the day before new year's eve the martial fire destroyed over 1000 homes in fulton county colorado in 24 hours. there were sheer devastation. last year communities in my state had some of the air quality. sad to say this. on the same day colorado had the air quality in the world. senator romney and i took a raft trip tome mow a whiff of climate and forestry. their days and people can't go outside or they can open their windows and they can't see the mountains are the dangers air pollution puts -- let's colorado's health at risk and there's a sobering possibility that future where this isn't the exception but the norm. i deeply worry if we don't act urgently on climate it will make the american west unrecognizable to her kids in our grandkids and i refuse to accept that. the people in my state refused to accept that. they have a reasonable expectation that their national government is going tont partner with them and help protect the american west. my hope isis are hearing today will help shake the complacency in washington and create the momentum we need. i'd like to thank the witnesses who are here and for sharing their expertise in this area and i looked were to hearing about what they are seeing and experiencing on the ground and the ways they are trying to manage the crisis.s. we need to act now to bring immediate relief to the western communities and we simply can't address the water crisis in any meaningful way unless they come together in partnership. tors underscore the crisis at hd at the map of the current u.s. drought monitor. senators marshall and stafford have brought the colorado association of wheat growers in rancher and grand county coloradoty describing the situation. i ask unanimous consent to be entered into the record. so move. that was fun to do. thank you. i like to say thank you to senator bosemann the ranking member for being here. means a lot free to be here especially coming from arkansas plays where we don't quite have the same drought conditions. too much water notot too little. let me turn it over to the ranking member the distinguished senator from kansas. >> thank you so much and good morning everybody. i wantnt to thank chairman bennt and his staff and my staff are holding today's hearing in probe work they have done. i want to thank all the witnesses sincerely for taking several days out of your week to come here and all my colleagues senator tuberville for coming as well. drought has been a key focus on the ag committee hearing and i'm hoping we can get real insight today on how to address the challenges we are facing out west with regards to drought wildfires and conservation. senator bennett the western third of kansas in the eastern third of colorado look a lot alike these days in the eyes have. you mentioned the colorado river but c the arkansas river is important to us through the arkansas river is like arkansas. ofwe pronounce at arkansas. they call at arkansas. i enjoy flyfishing in the headwaters of the river and the hatchery up there is incredible. much of the riverbed is dry. >> my wife is from arkansas and her grandfather told me the story of coming tof colorado whn he was a real road lawyer of some kind coming to colorado and having the arkansas river between his legs at the headwaters couldn't believe it. in arkansas was much wider than that. >> much of kansas is literally a trail ride for us. in 1935 after surveying the dust storm ever ported north america robert geiger was associated press reporter from washington d.c. or he summed up the life in our region with that quote from him three little words vaguely familiar on the western farmers tongue. this is not new but it certainly exacerbates even today these livelihoods on the high plane especially in her home state of kansas and colorado. just last month the national oceanic and atmospheric administration deemed april the driest month on record in the last 100 years. currently over half of kansas has been in modern drab and over one third of the state has been designated as the chairman commented on already. so much of kansas and colorado are in extreme drought conditions. just last week topeka capitol journal reported the projected wheat yielding kansas six suspected to drop by 100 million or so some i think that's about 30% of our average yield. it's going to be impacted by drought this y year. that's a value of over $1 billion to the state of kansas. .. adversely affects ranchers and families who fall victim it fires and we have had horrible prairie fires the past several years. this lack of rain hurts farm production and adversely effects hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars lost in assets, and at the worst, the lives of homes and the personal lives as well as genetics of cattle that they will never be able to replace. many of our friends in the private sector and our region's universities have been working on solutions in drought resiliency and fire mitigation. i'm excited to hear from them. hoping this hearing will yield positive results for the future of the western united states. thank you. i yield back. >> thank you very much, senator marshall, i appreciate that. it is nice to have a neighbor actually as the ranking member because we have a lot in common. senator, do you have anything you would like to -- okay. so i'm now going to introduce the three witnesses that i invited to testify at today's hearing, and then senator marshall will introduce his two from the kansas river valley. these are all leading experts in their fields with decades of experience in the sustainable management of our water from snow pack to forest, streams, and wetlands, all of them have spent years partnering with diverse groups across the west to manage our water resources in a way that preserves our economy and way of life for the next generation. our first witness mr. andrew mueller is a long time leader in western water issues with extensive policy, legal, and technical expertise. he currently serves as general manager of the colorado river water conservation district headquartered in glenwood springs colorado. the river district leads the protection, conservation and management of the colorado river for 15 western colorado counties, along with broader use of the river water in my state. the colorado river district has led efforts to protect critical water flows to sustain agriculture and protect for endangered species in the colorado upper basin. before leading the river district, he spent 23 years practicing law in ridgeway colorado where he specialized in water, natural resources and land use issues. he earned his law degree from the university of colorado and ba in history from kenyon college in ohio. thank you for your leadership in our state. thanks for being here. dr. courtney schultz is leading expert at the intersection of forestry, social science and policy, authored over 50 publications on u.s. forest policy issues along with a book on the collaborative forest landscape restoration program at usda. dr. schultz currently serves as a professor of forest and natural resource policy at colorado state university in boulder, where research focuses on landscape restoration, fire management, and adapting to climate change on u.s. forest lands. dr. schultz also serves as a director of the public lands policy group, which produces research to strengthen natural resource management and policy related to our public lands. dr. schultz also started the csu climate adaptation partnership which connects scientists, resource managers and policymakers to work collaboratively to help american west -- the american west adapt to climate change. dr. schultz holds a ba from stanford and ms in conservation biology and sustainable development from the university of maryland and a phd in forestry at the university of montana. thank you for being here, dr. schultz. the last witness i will introduce is dr. alan herbert, senior scientist at ducks unlimited. as members of this subcommittee know well, ducks unlimited is leading advocacy group of sports men and women committed to conserving america's wetlands. today the organization has conserved over 15 million acres of water foul habitat and its leadership has supported the protection of another 177 million acres of wetland nationwide. dr. herbert is a member of duck unlimited national and international science team where she evaluates the outcomes of their conservation work through field experimentation, numerical modelling and data synthesis. before joining ducks unlimited dr. ellen herbert completed field research on the effect of drought and sea level changes in the san francisco bay and coastal georgia. dr. herbert earned a ba in biology from guess where? kenyon college. and a phd in environmental science from inn university where she was also -- inn university where she was also a graduate research fellow for the national science foundation. dr. herbert, dr. schultz, and mr. mueller i can't thank you enough for leadership on these issues and thank you for your tip to today's hearing. -- for your trip to today's hearing. i hope this will let our colleagues the danger climate change poses. >> full disclosure, these gentlemen are both good friends, friends i have known for decades. they live eat and sleep conservation. i appreciate them being here today. earl lewis is the chief engineer of the kansas department of agriculture division of water resources and a member of the western state water council. he's dedicated his career to water resources in kansas and as rural he's responsible for any laws in the states which are related to water conservation management and control. in addition to his role as chief engineer, he served on the governor's water vision team, developing a long-term vision for the future of water supply in kansas and is on multiple councils and boards related to water policy and conservation. now tom willis is a titan of agriculture, entrepreneur, businessman, and again, a life-long conservationist before it was in vogue. he has many ventures, but one of them is the owner of tno farms south of garden city, kansas where he tries to grow crops on about 6 or 8 inches of rain every year. tom was the first to establish a water technology farm in the state of kansas in partnership with the kansas water office. since 2016, tom and his son, a veteran, have been studying and implementing new technologies such as soil moisture probes, drip irrigation, and aerial photography to manage irrigation methods on their operation. as we continue discussing solutions for water management and usage, i'm confident that the perspectives of these two kansans will provide beneficial to the committee. one final shoutout, i want to shoutout to dr. herbert and du, you have been a lifelong partner for my family. you have been one of our choices for charitable contributions. we have helped establish hundreds of water habitat for ducks on our personal property. your work has not gone unnoticed. no one does a better job of taking the moneys you're giving them and establishing habitat which we all get to enjoy. we appreciate du being here represented. i think that's a great choice on your part, chairman. >> you are right. i appreciate that, senator marshall. okay, so to the witnesses who actually know what they are talking about, we're very happy that you are here. please try to keep your testimony about five minutes each, and any written testimony we will certainly include in the record. and mr. mueller, you may proceed with your testimony, and we'll go right down the line. thank you. >> chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to speak today about the crisis that i am seeing play out before my eyes in western colorado. my name is andy mueller. i'm the general manager of the colorado river water conservation district. as a regional government, we lead in the conservation, development, and protection of the head waters of the colorado river in a 15 county area in western colorado. the precipitation in our district alone provides 65% of the colorado river's annual average flow. we are at the head waters of a river system that supports 40 million people, 5 million irrigated acres of agriculture, two countries, 30 sovereign tribal nations and seven states and 11 national parks. we're the first link in an immense chain vital to the health and future of the single-most important natural resource in the american southwest. the colorado river is aptly referred to as the hardest working river in america. maybe folks from kansas would disagree with us. even in wet years the river no longer reaches its natural mouth of sea of cortez. the massive system of federal reservoirs on the colorado river was designed and built to accommodate the known natural variability in the river system and worked extremely well for over 50 years. however, the longest and most severe drought on record that once highly functioning federal system is dangerously depleted. with only 34% of system storage remaining. forcing the department of interior in the basin states last year and this year to resort to emergency actions to keep the system from collapse. over the last 22 years, the flows of the colorado river have been 20% below average and sound science tells us we should anticipate and plan for significant reduction in flow in the future. the climate we have experienced in the last 20 years as senator bennett alluded to has been hotter and drier than any period in the last 1200 years. there's a direct causal relationship between rising temperatures and the volume of water flowing in the colorado river and its tributaries. western colorado, the most significant regional source of water in the colorado river is an epicenter for significantly above average rise in temperatures. most of our 15 counties have experienced a more than 4 degree fahrenheit rise in temperatures since 1895. with greatly accelerating temperatures over the last decade, a very concerning trend for those of us in the basin. for every 1 degree fahrenheit rise in average temperature, we see stream flow reductions between 3 and 9 percent. none have felt these climate impacts more than our family-owned farms and ranches in our colorado river district. the plentiful water resources of the past are no longer physically or legally available for many of our ag producers. families who have been involved in ranching for multiple generations are being forced to sell their cattle and confront tremendously uncertain futures. this drought is threatening our local, regional, and national food supply. we cannot more will we throw up our hands and surrender the thriving american southwest to the forces of climate change. citizens, communities, and governments throughout the southwest are developing strategies, but as in the past, when our nation has been confronted by existential threats, we need the federal government to be an integral partner in our efforts. we must recognize that there is no single solution which will allow us to escape this rapidly changing climate. it is a multifacetted effort. i want to touch on a few concrete examples which are worthy of your consideration. we need additionally -- additional strategically placed small reservoirs in our high mountain valleys. these will help us successfully mitigate climate change by retiming the flows which will provide essential water for our streams community and food supply. federal assistance through funding tools like pl 566, the watershed act, will be essential to our effort to adapt and retime this water. we need more robust agricultural efficiency projects such as the lower project in my district where agricultural producers team up with local, regional, state, and federal government agencies to adapt to climate change. through an expanded and streamlined rcpp program, we can help producers in stream quality in my other watersheds in the american west. a high mountain snow pack is the greatest reservoir in the colorado river, and our water users -- and for our water users on the western slope of colorado. the 2023 farm bill presents opportunities to encourage public investment and proper forest management, forested natural water infrastructure, enhancing climate resilience of water supplies, and supporting workforce development and increasing the pace and scale of watershed restoration and adaptation. the drought and conclusive climate science clearly demonstrate that our demands greatly outstrip the water supply in the colorado river basin. to survive and continue to thrive in the southwest, we will need to implement an all hands-on deck approach. every water user sector from agriculture industry to municipal water users will have to meaningfully reduce their water consumption. if congress is to incentivize the irrigated ag in the colorado river basin, must support agriculture while focusing on hobby farms. the federal government should not fund the retirement of the productive agricultural lands. in conclusion, we're only beginning to see this climate crisis in the american west. we can't afford to remain idle as rivers and reservoirs dry and families shutter their business. wishing for snow and rain is no longer an adequate plan at any level of decision making. if our communities going to survive in colorado and downstream, action at the federal level is needed to help us adapt to the hotter and drier future. mr. chairman, this concludes my testimony. >> thank you, mr. mueller. appreciate it. mr. lewis, you are next. thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman, ranking member marshall and members of the subcommittee. i appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to talk about this critical issue. my name is earl lewis. i'm chief engineer of the kansas department of agriculture's division water resources and member of the western states water council who i appear on behalf of today. the western states water council is an organization representing the 18 western states and members are appointed by and advised each of their governors. as each of the people have talked before me have mentioned, situation in the west is dire. we have heard about colorado river basin, the 40 million people and 5 million acres that are challenged with low water supply. the situation in the great plains is similar in the fact that over time, we're receiving less precipitation and are challenged by drought. when we have less precipitation, that means our farmers are pumping more water, exacerbating the declines of the aquifer. this is a vital resource for region. if we don't act, that will go away as well as the production associated with that irrigation. there are three roles that i believe the federal government plays when it comes to drought. first, operation of federal infrastructure, particularly with the bureau of reclamation and corps of engineers. second, collection analysis and distribution of data to all levels of government and individual producers. and third, cost share programs, producers and communities that help to mitigate drought and its effects. the collection, analysis and open sharing of reliable data is important for water viability for all levels of government. i would like to touch on a few of those that deal with the federal government. national drought information system is a multiagency partnership that coordinates drought monitoring, planning, and forecasting, including drought monitor which we talked about here today. the western states water council supports this and co chairs its executive council with usda and noaa. senator thune has been a champion. we thank you for his past support. in much of the west, winter snow pack and stream run off dominates the water supply. the usda snow survey water supply forecasting program within nrcs is critical for water users, managers, and planners. program funding has been [inaudible] at about 9 million dollars per year over the last two decades. while equipment, staffing and other costs have increased, challenging the program to meet staffing levels and to maintain an adequate network. anticipated 50% increase in the president's 23 budget hasn't been realized. although we would encourage your consideration of this request. the western states water council also supports robust programatic funding for improved seasonal to sub seasonal precipitation forecasting often known as s 2s. it is critical to improve lead time for water supply planning as well as reservoir and agricultural operations. pilot programs have been proposed to improve noaa's 90 day precipitation forecast, but funding has been inadequate today. water resource managers and agricultural interests are reliant on evaporation -- data for irrigation scheduling, management, and a host of other issues. satellite based et data is already available in some regions, but it is often not readily reliable for modelling and decision making at the watershed or field scale. the council supports legislative proposals for a program that fills the urgent need for operational system that can produce accurate consumptive crop water use estimates such as senate 2568 introduced by senator cortez. we encourage the subcommittee to consider the role and resources needed to participate in building a national water data network as well as partnerships to advance the use of water information to serve the needs of agriculture. two senators have introduced legislation to establish a national water data framework. we welcome the introduction of the water data act and supports coordination and leverage of state and federal resources. finally, usda conservation assistance programs help agricultural industry thrive in good times and survive in hard times. the council supports collaborative, targeted and voluntary programs for any conservation practices and ground water recharge to preserve long-term ground and surface water resources programs such as equip, the regional conservation partnership program and conservation reserve enhancement program are all programs which implement best practices on the ground to lessen the need for water and help mitigate drought. likewise the usda's rural development agency helps rural communities plan and implement projects to have a reliable water supply. planning for and limiting the impact of drought will take all roles of government working together which is why i appreciate the opportunity to be here today. thank you for that opportunity. i will be happy to answer questions at the appropriate time. >> thank you, mr. lewis. we appreciate you being here today. thank you for your testimony. dr. schultz? >> thank you, chairman bennett, ranking member marshall, and members of the subcommittee. i appreciate the opportunity to speak to you today. my name is courtney schultz. i'm a professor of forest and natural resource policy at colorado state university in fort collins colorado. i also lead our university's climate adaptation partnership. in colorado, and across the country, climate change is leading to increased fires, smoke, flooding, and drought. in april of this year, usda designated the entire state as a primary natural disaster area due to severe drought conditions that are likely to persist for years. drought is projected to cost the state more than 500 million dollars in annual agricultural damages by 2050 and reduce water availability while [inaudible] agricultural water users alike. fire is also increasing in colorado and across the west. three of the state's largest wildfires in history occurred in 2020 alone, and the state witnessed its costliest fire in state history in december, which supposed to be winter. the marshall fire which burned 6,000 acres and over a thousand homes in a suburban setting last year. when fires are followed by heavy rains which will only become more likely, we will see landslides, millions of dollars in damage to water infrastructure and flash floods that lead to the loss of life and property. in some places forests are also not growing back and smoke from fires is increasing with major implications for human health. these impacts fall disproportion senately on low income and -- disproportionately on low income and marginalized populations in our state and beyond. drought and fire have impacts that extend well beyond our state borders. at csu our land grant university we are undertaking extensive work related to climate change. we are truly at the forefront of research on fire, researching resilience of the environment to natural disasters like fire, climate adaptation strategies in forests and range lands, post fire issues in colorado and across the west with the focus on rural and indigenous communities, examining wildfire impacts on forest, snow pack stream flow and sediment yield and we collaborate with usda extensively on these efforts and appreciate the partnership with the agency's research arms. others at our university are working on agriculture, soil based climate solutions, sustainable livestock systems and innovation. we're home to the partnership on air quality climate and health whose members are studying smoke and importantly smoke communication to protect human health. we're also growing partnerships with usda climate hubs with relation to drought and adaptation planning. we're developing educational opportunities that would serve the existing workforce, train new graduate students and train and recruit youths into these fields. i want to highlight a few potential areas for future attention and investment. we see potential for augments funding for climate adaptation research and more land grant usda climate hub partnerships perhaps with multiyear funding to support partnerships for agriculture and forest resilience. also maybe value in exploring authorizing the climate hubs a recent five year review of the hubs indicated there's significant demand for their work at a lot of areas for growth. for forests and fire management, which is my area of expertise, the situation will only get worse. it is far more expensive to respond reactively than it is to work proactively. we can give firefighters greater opportunities to engage fire as it moves towards the interface where people live and conserve to reduce fire intensity which can protect the forest's ecosystem for the benefits it provides include water provisioning and carbon storage. at the same time, the best way to protect communities is work on defensible space and fuel reduction right around homes because embers can come from miles away. and most ignitions are actually human started on private land. if we're trying to protect communities, work needs to be done across jurisdictions with strong community based partner engagement. partners have noticed that forest management in high priority areas would require a 40 to 60 billion dollars investment across jurisdictions in the next 10 years and must rely on federal, state, tribal, ngo, and private partnerships to accelerate action. we got partway there in the infrastructure bill, and i would encourage you to continue seeking the necessary funding with a few recommendations. partners are seeking greater involvement, transparency, and accountability for how these funds are being spent to ensure they are going to the intended purpose, being placed strategically, utilizing community based partnerships, promoting carbon storage and going to areas that's been underserved. i would recommend a clear plan specifically for the funding in the infrastructure bill that is dedicated to fire which an essential forest management tool and a discussion on how to deploy funds where they are needed most given current workforce shortages and limited industry capacity to do restoration work. i would also be happy to work with you on how future investments can be guided through improved performance measures that focus on outcomes such as more emphasis on the mitigated target with strong exterm oversight and engagement -- external oversight and engagement. the challenge of managing our connected forests watersheds and farmlands is monumental in colorado and across the west. we are ready to assist in this endeavor and appreciate this opportunity to discuss these issues with the committee today. thank you. >> thank you, dr. schultz. we will take you up on your offer of assistance. mr. willis, thank you for being here. the floor is yours. >> thank you, chairman bennett, ranking member marshall and members of the subcommittee for giving me the opportunity to speak today. my name is tom willis. senator marshall, we're not in kansas anymore. you guy cans read my testimony -- you guys can read my testimony. there's three or four points i would like to make in the allotted time that i've got. number one, this drought is real. the way i can signify that, we haven't measurable precipitation on my farm, and i farm in four counties in western kansas since last august. this morning at 3:00 in the morning, i got a call from my wife. usually when that happens, it means i got cattle out on the highway and my cowboy's drunk somewhere. that's not why she called. she called me to tell me it was raining. we had an inch two last night. that's the first rain we have had since last august. number two, when that happens in our area because of the harshness of the climate, we pull heavy on the aquifer. when i first bought on the farm, my pulldown on that was 10 feet, 10 feet of water hah we used out -- that we used out of the aquifer that was not replenished. i could see that was not sustainable. working with the state, we developed one of the first water tech farms. in that was to say how can we be profitable and still conserve water? so working with the state, we put in change nozzle packages on our sprinklers. we redid our sprinklers. we put moisture probes in because the average farmer will look at his, you know, everything he sees above ground. by using moisture probes, we were able to go down as far as five feet and see what does it look like down there, how much water does it actually need? telemetry allowed me to look at the well when it is running and if i'm tempted to turn it up to go faster, i can see what it does to the aquifer. most of the time it makes you kind of slow it back down. that's been helpful. we have used the remotes on all of our circles. why is that important? in the past when it broke down you may not know about it for four or five six hours. it would stand in the same place and sprinkle in the same place. we're able to know instantaneously. my sons are good at turning it off at 3:00 a.m. so we don't waste water. we changed our crop irrigation. when i got there, it was corn soybeans, soybeans, corn. we have implemented sort them. as a disclaimer, i'm on the national producers but i will tell you that it is the resource conserving crop. it is suited very well for southwest kansas. it's hardy, and it can be made to be profitable because that was our goal. all of that combined i guess to get right to the bottom line on it, we saved in six years, we've saved 8,887 acre feet, or that's 1.2 billion gallons of water that we've saved, by changing rotation, by using the technologies that are out there, that's real water. that will be there for my son, my grandson, and for the way of life that we chose to live. so very happy with that. i do utilize state programs. i get asked sometimes why don't you use the federal programs? the reality of it is this, the state is simple. they will cost share a water probe with me. they will cost share a meter with me. they will cost share telemetry with me depending on what the year brings. i can be flexible. unfortunately with the federal programs, they mean well, but their flexibility is not there. so i can't afford that given the ever-changing climate and what i have to deal with from an environment perspective, i have to have maximum flexible. one of the asks that i would have if we construct this new farm bill, if we put anything in there, remember, one size doesn't fit all and the key to getting farm adaptation to all of this is flexibility. the other thing you have to look at is risk. in today's margins, farm margins with input costs where they are, it's hard to get a farmer to think outside what his work -- he doesn't want to lose his farm. so incentivizing that change would be good. so anyway, i'm out of time, but i appreciate you listening to me. but i want to tell you this, this problem is real. it can't be kicked down the road. it cannot be kicked down the road, at least in western kansas. i look forward to answering any questions you might have. again, thank you for letting me be here. >> thank you, mr. wilson. i would say if they were a colorado producer here, they would be talking about their children and grandchildren as well. i appreciate your focus there. dr. herbert, you have the last word, and then we'll go to questions. >> mr. chairman, ranking member, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for having me today. i'm dr. ellen herbert, senior scientist for ducks unlimited, north america's leader in voluntary incentive-based wetland and grassland conservation. i appreciate the opportunity to testify today on behalf of ducks unlimited regarding the western water crisis. water is at the center of what we do as an organization. western states have lost between 20 and 90 percent of their original wetlands through direct drainage and conversion of wetlands. others have been lost through the diversion of source water for other uses. it will come to no surprise that drought is further exacerbating wetland loss. this has had a profound effect on water birds and other wetland dependent wildlife as well as the important ecological functions wet lands provide to people, by capturing floodwater, augmenting river flows, recharging deep aquifers and regulating climate. the drought situation is dire. however, when i can, i want to offer solutions on the role of farm bill programs and other programs like the national wetlands conservation act. wetland restoration in states like colorado and kansas can be part of the drought mitigation solution. we have heard from other witnesses about flow retiming. wetlands with sub surface connectivity tend to regulate hydrology by capturing water during snow melt or flood periods and direct that water through shallow sub surface flows providing a constant sub surface discharge through streams and rivers during drought periods. you and other multiple partners and public and private entities deliver the south platt river wetland augmentation in colorado to direct water to wetland ponds during high flow snow melt periods where it infiltrates into the aquifer and returns to the river over time. these projects offset agricultural well depletion, supplement base load during dry periods and provide habitat for waterfowl, birds, cranes and other threatened and endangered species. wetlands can also play a role in redischarging aquifers. working with usda through the safe program and other partners in the southern high plains to restore wetlands as the ranking member knows too well, the aquifer is being depleted at an alarming rate. scientists estimate that aquifer recharge rates in wetlands are ten to a thousand times higher than recharge rates in up land systems. wetlands contribute up to 95 pbt of the -- 95% of the aquifer recharge. by restoring it, we can improve water security for future generations and provide important migratory bird habitat. these among other crp wetlands are also subject of a usda project and other partners and six state and tribal universities examining the climate mitigation potential of the crp program. previous research indicates these wetlands and surrounding grasslands are important carbon reservoirs. water efficiency is another important component of drought resilience especially in western states where it can be difficult to supply enough water to support a significant human population globally important agriculture industry and vital habitat for waterfowl and other wildlife. the irrigation project, for instance, supports tens of thousands of wetland acres and hundreds of thousands of acres of crop land requiring 440,000 acre feet of water annually. this year slated to receive only 50,000 acres or 11% of that demand. national wildlife refuge once the most important waterfowl refuges in north america will receive no water and be completely dry. in a typical winter, the central valley of california hosts between 6 and 8 million ducks and geese which rely on wetlands and winter flooded. this year rice planting will be around half of what it normally is. rice is an important commodity and provides more than half of all waterfowl food in the central valley. the rest of the wetlands of the central valley of california are slated to get 20% or less than normal water supplies. while there is new single -- while there is no single solution other than increased snow pack and more rain which is becoming increasingly unlikely with changing weather patterns and warmer winters we can implement more water efficient practices to better use what we have. to meet water demands in california, water is delivered to users through an elaborate system of water storage and conveyance infrastructure, but these systems are often inefficient. working with multiple partners on two projects, du is pursuing design and construction projects to replace leaking and inefficient siphons and canals. these projects will create nearly 47,000 acre feet of new and improved water conveyance capacity and provide reliable water delivery to 29,000 acres of agricultural land and 9,000 acres of wet lands. as drought continues to worsen, we want to ensure our policies are maximizing water resilience, water recuse and water efficiency -- reuse and water efficiency. working with partners ducks unlimited will continue to advocate multiple benefit water projects to maintain vital habitat and support human use. thank you and i would be more than happy to answer your questions. >> thank you. i would like to thank the witnesses for your substantive and sober testimony and for coming in at five minutes. we're now going to turn a round of five minute questions from each of us. i'm going to start. mr. mueller, assuming we move forward as we are now with no changes to our water use and no meaningful action to slow climate change, can you describe what you think the colorado river basin will look like in 20 or 40 years? could you give the committee also a little bit of a sense about what is happening in lake powell and lake mead as well? >> absolutely, thank you, senator. i would say 20 or 30 years from now, the colorado river basin will be a starkly different place if we don't act quickly and act intelligently. all of the scientific consensus is clear that we will -- are facing a situation where we can expect additional cuts to the flow of the colorado river as great as 30%. so 50% reduction from 20 years ago. this isn't a river system that again is already overappropriated and overused -- this is a river system that's already overappropriated and overused what that means is we will have great conflict between our growing cities, the river basin and our national food supply. it means that the price and value of water will exceed the current value of agricultural production water. and it is likely that our agriculture in the colorado river basin will be greatly diminished. it is a situation that is dire frankly. you know, i talk about our family farms and ranches in western colorado, but the reality is, our farmers throughout the colorado river basin feed america. you look at to the southern -- the lower basin, any of us who have enjoyed a salad in the winter, it is coming from arizona or an irrigation district, it is watered with colorado river water. we simply cannot see that disappear over the next 30 years. today that massive system of reservoirs that i referred to has the two largest, lake mead at hoover dam and lake powell. you may have read in the paper that states and the department of interior very cooperatively this year enacted some extremely shocking emergency actions and did so in the space of about two weeks of dialogue. we're talking about a water bureaucracy that moves at the pace of melting glaciers 200 years ago, not at today's pace. they came together because the reality is that lake powell was predicted to drop below minimum power production at the lake. and that's bad enough because the western united states depends upon that cheap power coming out of the crisp reservoirs, but it's even worse when you look at the infrastructure issue associated with that. that leaves us with two outlets out of glen canyon dam. the concern at the bureau of reclamation was that those two river bypass outlets would actually erode the concrete tunnels that pass that water because they appear not to be functioning as they were designed in the early 1960s. the concern was that we would not be able to pass water to the lower basin at all, no water in the grand canyon, no water for california, no water for nevada, and that is a stark warning to all of us. we were within months of hitting that level in lake powell. so we moved water around, didn't release as much out of glen canyon down through the grand canyon this year, about half a million acre feet, and we also moved another half million acre feet from flaming gorge reservoir up in wyoming in utah down into lake powell. these are one-time fixes. these are one moment in time. we don't have any more of those iv bags as i call them, or upper basin reservoirs. the three reservoirs that sit at that the federal government control that sit above lake powell sit at approximately 23, 27, and somewhere around 50 percent full respectively. they are stark and empty. this year's snow pack as we sit here today has melted a full month earlier than the average run off. our run off peaked at about 60% of average run off. as i referenced in my written testimony last year, we had about an 89% snow pack in the colorado river basin, pretty good, close to average. well, the inflow into lake powell, where it really matters was less than 37%. so the change and the heat is just killing this river, and so i would just say that we need to act. we need to act in a way that supports our agricultural community. and i think that the federal government and through the department of agriculture has a tremendous ability to do that with our producers hand in hand. >> thank you, mr. mueller. i'm going to reserve my other questions so my colleagues have a chance to ask theirs. senator marshall? >> i'm going to yield my time to senator tuberville, and then i will come back. >> thank you very much. thanks for being here today. very interesting. i'm from alabama. we got a lot of water. we don't have this problem, but i spent a lot of time out west and i'm a big duck hunter. i understand your problem. and it is a huge problem. i have been on lake powell several times. what a mess. my question is, we know we got a problem. why do we have a problem? we got to figure out the problem before we can get a solution. is it governors? is it we're sending too much water to the cities? i know dallas and fort worth are draining the aquifer in north texas. they are sending millions of gallons a day. so why? why are we in this situation? who wants to take it first? anybody else want to answer that? why do we have -- climate change, i'm fine with climate change, but why? how do we stop this? >> i might take the first crack at that. i would say twofold. first, the majority of the western states fall under what's called -- [inaudible] doctrine and individual water rights are private property rights by the owner of the property. a lot of times that development happened clear back in the 1800s and certainly by 1970 and 1980, we really didn't have adequate data at that point to have a good handle on what the situation was going to be. that's part of it is just lack of understanding at the time we were reallocating the water supply and water rights. the second is that as we think about it from the standpoint of making those decisions, we're using the best available data that's available to us at that point. our history -- you have heard the chairman talk about the fact that the west is as dry as it's been for 12 years. -- 1200 years. well we don't have 1200 years of record to make decisions on. at that point we had maybe 50 to 100 years of record. i think if we look at the overall history of the record, we allocate a lot of that water supply during a fairly wet period. and so we consequently in a lot of cases overallocated the resource and did that in a private property right situation. we certainly want to respect those private property rights but it puts us in a situation in how do we manage a situation? it's been pointed out the question of urban versus ag. i think we're all in this together. whether it's ag or urban industry -- >> it is going to take both. >> it is going to take all of us working together to resolve this. >> yeah. so we have this problem. you look at it and say, you know, the climate is changing which it obviously moves back and forth, but, you know, is it because we're concentrating more people in one area that they are stopping the water from coming down south? he's the end of the food chain here. in south arizona. i mean, we got to figure out the problem. we can't just, you know, throw money at something that's not going to help. anybody else want to answer this? i mean, where do we start? >> i will give you a little more time because i just think it's such a fundamentally good question, senator tuberville. thank you. dr. schultz, did you want to take -- >> yes, thanks for the question, senator tuberville. i can mostly speak to the research on forest fires. that's my area of expertise, but i can say that we're seeing a lot of data that indicates because of the climate change, human caused climate change, we're seeing significant increases in temperatures which is leading to, you know, rain that's not falling as snow anymore. we have different timing of flows, water that's evaporating. we're looking at potential to low to no snow futures. >> why is it doing that? >> because it is getting hotter primarily, and then we're having changes in precipitation patterns. for example, there's these predictions that we'll see much more intensive flooding after fires because these atmospheric rivers will come in and will have more extreme rainfall in the summertime than we have ever seen before. so it's the increased temperature is leading to changes in how and when water is coming and then changes in precipitation patterns. if we look at patterns for forest fires, you know, for a while, we were talking about the fact that past fire suppression in our fire-prone forests was a big reason we were seeing more fires. but now we're seeing climate change effects -- this is when i talk to my fire scientist colleagues. they are saying climate change and increased heat is leading to higher temperatures, different relative humidity, wind speeds, and increased fire behavior in ways we have never seen before. so paper just came out that says there were three times the amount of fire in our high elevation forest than ever has been seen on the record. i think to a large extent, we can think about how we can adapt to climate change and how do we live with it? what do we do for our forests in the meantime? fundamentally, we have to reduce carbon emissions and slow climate change. that's ultimately where the solution lies. >> thank you. >> senator marshall? >> thank you, again. i will start with mr. lewis. on the same topic of managing flood events. how can we manage that water from rivers we're flooding and stored them better? we have talk about this in kansas for decades. how do we take advantage of that situation? any thoughts? >> well, i think as we look at the situation in at least our part of the world, the central united states, what the forecasts or the long-term models would say is that we will get roughly the same amount of precipitation, but in more intense events and maybe more time in between the events. if you are going to manage the water, we kind of have to go back to where we were at maybe in the middle part of the last century with storage. as we just mentioned, we may see much more intense rainfall, and that can lead to more flooding. if we don't have the infrastructure in order to capture that, and then ideally put that to use once the flood passes us. >> are you seeing anybody being successful? it seems like the corps wants to build dikes higher and higher, and i keep thinking about natural spillways and ways to manage those floodwaters. >> you know, there are a few examples. certainly, as we see more and more demand permanently from our cities and -- primarily from our cities and urban centers for water, we are seeing certainly in texas and california, in north texas, there was recently a reservoir that was permitted and is being built which is about 13,000 surface acres. that's probably the largest reservoir of its kind being built in the united states at this point. that had to be done by the local water supply district. the federal government and most of the state governments are not really in the business of building storage and managing that type of infrastructure at this point. >> okay. my next question is kind of a generic one that we will see if we have time for you to answer. in federal government conservation programs, tom,ly come to you first -- i will come to you first, what's working for water conservation? what's not working? how would you improve water conservation if you were writing the next farm bill? what would that look like to you to give you more flexibility? >> first of all, yeah, flexibility is the key to it. maybe shorter term type programs. the key to getting in my opinion in production agriculture is to be able to incentivize the producer to try new technologies without feeling like he's going to lose his farm if things don't work because we're an aging population in production agriculture. and so that willingness to step out of the box and say hey, i want to switch the way that i'm doing things, that's hard. that can be a very hard decision especially, again, with overall farm income -- net farm income projected to be down, so my -- what would i do? i think i would mirror a little bit like we do in kansas where we say hey, you know, i go to them. i would like to put in some probes. i would like to do this. there's some incentives for me to try that. then they don't tell me what i have to do from there. they look at the results. i tell them what i want to do. in my case i said i will reduce my water usage by 50%. >> okay. >> and we were able to do that. we were able to hold net income at the same level, but i think that would be my one suggestion. >> mr. lewis, kind of expand upon that. what have you seen working from the federal level? obviously the state's giving them some flexibility. if you were to help us direct the next farm bill, what could we do to give you more flexibility or to make this work for your people? >> i think he hit on it pretty well, frankly. you know, much of the programs that are dedicated to this type of activity really weren't built for irrigation efficiency or water management. they were primarily built coming out of the 30s and 50s with dust bowls and they were focused on soil conservation and those kinds of things. very important activity. they are really difficult to then take those same programs and then apply to the type of things that tom just talked about. i think some more focus on irrigation technology, on water management, maybe dedicating some of the resource and some of the programs towards that would be helpful in trying to move us in the right direction from the federal side. >> thank you. i will yield back. >> yeah, if i could just add, senator marshall, i appreciate that question. i would say there are a couple things real quickly. in our district, we deal with both the nrcs and the bureau of reclamation, in the far west, and the problem we have is that the two agencies have completely different compliance processes. we have projects where we combine the money from the two agencies together with state and local money, and we end up spending years doing extra compliance because we end up having to comply with the bureau policies and then the nrcs policies. we would love to see a farm bill that directs the nrcs to be able to use the u.s. bureau reclamation compliance program and policy, so if we do that first, we can move forward with both agencies. that would be tremendously helpful. the only other thing i would say is that we are looking at these huge increases in prices on piping in particular, that's one of our most -- best way to increase water efficiency and water conservation on off-farm delivery. the process that the nrcs uses through equip often times combines both the design and the construction in one contract. by the time we get the design approved, get the contracts approved, the construction prices have escalated recently as much as 100%, and the original contract price cannot cover the on farm and off farm delivery systems. we would ask that you consider supporting and re-establishing the index payment rate program within the nrcs and authorizing the nrcs to break those two phases of contracting up so that when we finally contract for construction, it is a realistic number and not one that's futile. thank you >> thank you, senator marshall. thank you for the testimony. the senator is next in order, but he's kindly said senator if you would like to go since you are here and thank you for coming that you can go next. >> thank you, mr. chair. i actually live on a farm and have practiced conservation my entire life. watch with horror sometimes when i see what's happening especially in the far west to where it looks like agriculture is a long-term enterprise, and your main asset is your land and your water table. you know, when that starts going the wrong direction, i don't know how you strategically make the decisions on what you are going to do long-term. most other businesses don't have that dynamic in play. so i'd like mr. mueller and mr. lewis to give me an idea especially in maybe the near west, are you in as bad a shape or impending as what we see through places like california, where i don't know how owning a farm there would look like you could say that's a long-term enterprise, you know, when you literally could run out of water. how far east is that situation for all of us to be concerned about in terms of what the future holds? >> maybe i can take that and then we can move further to kansas. i would tell you that our farmers in the high mountains of colorado, our ranchers and farmers deal with drought. they are used to dealing with drought on a fairly regular basis. many of our districts are direct supply districts. we don't have the benefit of ground water in our area. we're very heavily reliant on surface water, snow run off. our farmers understand and our rancher understand that when they look up at the mountains, and they see a dry year, they are used to saying well, that back 40 that's not as productive, i am going to not irrigate that so i can get the maximum bang out of my most productive fertile soils. and i think that's what we've seen over the last 22 years of this severe drought in colorado. i would say that we're just as bad off as california. we maybe don't have as many people demanding it, but we are incredibly dry. i think that developing a program where we assist farmers on a programatic scale to remove that marginal ag, and i would also say, you know, we have an awful lot of people who have moved into colorado, just as in california, and getting some of our what my real agricultural constituents would call hobby farmers, getting them to dry up their views in favor of food production with a little federal incentive would help us. targeting those two areas and voluntary conservation programs would be tremendously helpful. >> thank you, senator, for that question. i would say that it probably runs right through the middle of kansas and oklahoma, texas, clear up to north dakota. we often talk from the water standpoint about -- at least in kansas of being two states, from a very semiairid in the western part of the state ground water dominated to much more rainfall, in the eastern part of our state. >> how much in the eastern part? >> up to 45 inches. we're about 15 or 16 in the southwest portion and about 45, so about three times -- >> that's indiana rainfall then. >> that's right. and so, you know, the western third of our state, we are really in a water mining situation at this point. it is like any real estate, it is about location. bef some areas that -- we have some areas that are 25 or 50 years left. we have areas that may have 2 years left. -- 200 years left. i think making sure we tailor whatever action we take to that individual area, that individual producer is key to our long-term success. one thing that hasn't been hit on yet that i think is key and mr. willis talked about it just briefly is crop varieties and crop genetics. we are seeing even in the western part of our state because of drought tolerant crops, people that can be successful in certainly in a normal year where 25, 50 years ago that wasn't the case on a dry land situation. i think additional research dedicated to crop genetics that are more suited to high plains would certainly make sure that we can keep those farmers viable for the long-term. >> thank you. dr. schultz, i have been a tree farmer since the late 80s, and all i can tell you it is great therapy for this current job. i go back to it every weekend. forest ground has a little different dynamic. it is a longer horizon. the biggest thing i deal with would be invasive species, and we've got one called [inaudible] grass that once it gets into your woods, you don't even know that it's not native, and you do a poor harvest, and it's gone from your skid trails into enveloping the entire woods and you can't even get a seedling of a breakthrough. i know you have got similar stuff in the west, grass, other stuff that you contend with. how big a deal is that? and how much has that become a problem in the recent past? >> thank you, senator, for the question. my understanding, and i will just caveat and say that's a little bit outside of my expertise, but my understanding is that they will be insects and disease outbreaks in our forests in the west, and they will have a variety of effects. sometimes it will mean that you will get two cycles of insects in a year because it is warmer instead of one or you will have situations where because you don't get a hard freeze, the larvae don't die so that will exacerbate it. i think part of what happened when we saw massive die off california a few years ago there was an insect outbreak it weakened the trees and it caused huge mortality event with the drought. that can interact with fire in some tricky ways as well. >>:: when the forests and it basically is our water infrastructure for the rocky mount west. i really appreciate your light of questioning. sarah lujan my neighbor is here i think you're going to go next. and in your absence mr. lewis from kansas mentioned his support of your bill with sarah in the water data act but i want to know your mention why you were not here for a quick cipro should that mr. chairman, thank you mr. bennet. thank you for holding this hearing with you and mr. marshall part mr. lewis that encouragement and support of that effort we have incredible u.s. house member by the name of melanie stansberry. she used to work over here in the senate. the good people of new mexico saw that expertise. now she is in the house. she really was a brain trust behind some of this but the work she did on similar issues. i appreciate that. i am glad to hear across the country there's more and more attention to the drought condition. i myself am fourth-generation small farm. is a few acres of hobby farming is self sustenance. and while we came out of that ground so to animals for that sheep or cattle or others that may be grazing on hey or that l felt that we are it is all important as well. we are looking at the impacts. doctor schultz in new mexico and colorado think mr. mueller mentioned this as well, our water comes from those watersheds from snowmelt and accumulation. like southern colorado and new mexico, they are all irrigation ditch ways. people may chuckle at what we do but centuries ago our ancestors so right to dig 3 feet across, t these head gates. the spanish name for door but a head gate and then we manage the water flow. in good years everyone has more crop production in bad years. we have to walk up that ditch and often times as of the shovel in your hand because you go look and see who took your water. a new heart boards with one another so the water gets flowing again but whether it centuries old power look at irrigation structures and constructing usda, private entities that have taken these over doing that work is also important and last week i was visiting some areas of new mexico where we have the largest fire on record now. it was started by prescriber in both for service within the usda. but nonetheless, i'm very concerned about what dry conditions mean in lower water yield on the front end. what that can lead to beetles and others invasive species. i'm much more concerned at least during this time in new mexico with what good water is going to mean for us. good water is going to mean that water conditions because the fire burned so hot we have -- six -- 12 inches deep it would have trees come down the run to close up the rivers the ashes going to go into waterways and culverts. and some of these towns 90% of the water that is for drinking water in these communities are not going to go to touch it. enter doctor schultz can you touch on that little as well. fire in water good conditions for or bad conditions and what that means it on the back into what that could yield to hally to be thoughtful for conditions before conditions after looking because by the fire. >> inc. is hundred lujan for that question. i'm certainly very cognizant of the intensifiers are facing your state right now. my heart was at your state and people who are dealing with that appointment issue for long time to come. i live in the footprint of the camera peak fire attend enormous impact on our watershed i watch that myself ash and water flows are very obviously impact should post fire. of the things we should think about is how we can improve our post- fire recovery funding and strategies. that was me an area for emphasis for the farm bill and something were going to be working on this summer is trying to understand specifically what people are needing and where they are running into challengers so we can help inform this committee on those issues. the other thing i understand is a lot of communities do not have walk back up water supplies. we have seen some communities a switch to backup water supply other communities are not going to have the option there one far away from having their water supply essentially shut down. also seen tremendous impact to water infrastructure for example i think after the hayman fire and colorado estimates were the impact to water supply for cities around denver was over $30 million because these flows into the water infrastructure. there is the impact of the debris into the system, the toxicity of the water and the impact of the infrastructure itself which can be hugely important cleanup. i think that all leads to the need to do more to limit these catastrophic fires and also recognize the bigger part of our future how to have some nimbleness with our water infrastructure, water supply and have more focus on are both post- fire recovery for communities for cracks appreciate that doctor schultz. there are two other issues i wanted to raise. it is more to get the attention of the committee staff as well as we are all working in these areas as well. and it curves off mr. braun was talking about with the invasive species with clients and things of that nature in new mexico and southern colorado that is salt cedar in our waterways and then we have elms if we could just figure how to get fruit growing out of them we would solve a lot of challenges. these things sprout up like crazy and they drink a ton of water. especially the smaller communities they do not have the financial means to take those things down. he gets expensive. so to the extent we are look at conservation and drought mitigation we try to plus that up and we look at smaller areas in the local governments do not have the memes to be able to get that done. and then the last thing i will say in conservation is need to be doing more in these specific areas with some of these earth and waterways. like mr. mueller just talked about that is what recharges wells and keeps good trees from falling. as we find that balance and we understand the ecosystems that exist or drinking water and many of these communities would turn into ghost out they didn't have water and theirs are the way to get it to them. just so were about both of those. thank you for your time in the interest. >> i also want to say how sorry i am the fires are currently in new mexico. we know it just a matter of time before it gets to colorado for me too write a farm bill for the 21st century understands what we're dealing with. we had two years ago fell and then it snowed before anybody could do any work on the landscape. that is what happens when you are in a world where all the sudden there is no fire season anymore. and that is what you are doing with. thank you. senator hoeven thank you so much for coming by the forster's request thank you you and the ranking member for holding the hearing and it's always good to follow ray-ban is one of my favorites. picking up on what the term just said that i would ask this to each one of you if there is one thing in the farm bill that you think we should make sure we have got there to help with drought what is it? but priority one what is it? >> i would say funds farm bill to assist with both post- fire recovery both natural and man-made infrastructure in the high country of our watersheds is what we truly need. >> is there something is targeted to that that is effective to build on? >> there are programs for instance the equip program. >> leaves equip a lot. >> it is well-suited. i spoke a little earlier on this we have been running into some really tremendous issues people who have approved foreign contract are unable to complete the project because of the inflation we are seeing on piping. really a problem everybody at the local are really trying to make these things work on spreading that limited water out is absolute essential. >> i really like that answer. equip us for a lot of other purposes to our producers really like it. i think that's right on the money literally. >> thank you. >> thank you sent out echo a lot of that comment as well. equip, making sure it has adequate funding and also has flexibility again the situation all across the west and the nation varies greatly with the being able in our situation to be able to target those funds towards things that are more irrigation technology or things that would save us water that's more resilient i think that is key for cracks funding and flexibility i absolutely gripped both of you. thank you said ardent dish has more death submission say two things. these gentlemen covered it. i also went to bring attention some of that works with the usda climate hubs are really dedicated to working with agricultural and forest users across the region due to things like drought planning forecasting of conditions. i have been realizing universities could bring a lot to that partnership. it is already partnership that's in place for extension capacity to work and write retrain the next-generation workforce for bring a research expertise on how to communicate effectively. i think there might be potential to build that kind of thing out. we see multiyear partnerships with usgs and university in the plant centers. maniacally something similar on the ag and forster as well. ask mr. willis? >> thank you i would say as a producer the key is flexibility but i say that in terms of getting people to adopt producers now, to adopt technology. sometimes you have to start small maybe it is a circle. maybe it is two. but having that flexibility so they can try to see it works. we faced so many risks nobody wants another risk nobody wants of the program that has inflexible or ton of reporting that his deal with it. if we are truly serious, i'm speaking about western canonists and drink kansas. i'm going to talk about colorado to her productive as has the ability to go in and try this. try it on two circles. if somebody come to me 20 years ago and said you could cut your water usage and happens to keep your bottom on the same i would have laughed at them. but i tried it. but i am unique i have a few other businesses. something didn't go quite right wasn't like i was absolute the family farm. a lot of them don't have that. >> you did not have to bet the farm so to speak on trying something. >> no. so by doing that and having that in their i'm saying hey come and try it. when i'm talking about flexibility to it is saying will have different programs pretty want to cut water by 10% here's a program pretty want to get aggressive here is a program. in my opinion you will get a lot better participation for the lot better adaptation they will see it works they'll say they're not going to lose their farm and they're not going to get bogged down with a lot of the inflexibility i guess that we have seen. doctor okay the northern pronunciation. >> i want to preface your response on this too. mr. willis said a couple things really important. when the program should fit the produce of the farm of the renter should make the farmer the renter for the program. i know a lot of folks think the rancher needs to fit the program. the program should fit. we talk about flexibility i called the programs have to be farmer friendly. and it really is my opinion and i love to hunt and fish my wife is a much better fissure person than i am. i think conservation is a benefit when you have the mindset of farmer friendly programs. they are the ones that are on the land they own the land they live and work there every day they are out there even on public lands in the forest, the grasslands in our case. anyway kind of respond that that thought in mind if you open request to submit. the group evident management said equip one of the programs that's worked really well for us as cpp alternative funding agreement that allows us to do exactly that you are saying. our soil health and livestock in the proto- dakotas relies on starting with interviews with the ranchers and producers about what will work for them and allows us to be very flexible to design our contracting around what works for them. and so that in the program have open doors for that. also opening the doors everything that has been talked about is wonderful. but to execute unique people in the field interacting with producers. and again the rcp program has allowed us to get much more technical assistance out in the field talking to producers about what they need in designing programs to fit that need. i cannot say enough about that program the reach through public private partnerships and meet farmers where they are. designing those programs around those production systems is critical to the longevity of those programs. i will add one more thing which is we have made significant effort to research and collect data from producers on the financial and other natural resource benefit they see from conservation practices. we have the data that says those practices are financially viable. producers will continue to do them after the contractor expires but that required data to show the producer and requires us to collect data and fund the collection of data. >> thank you. fantastic questions. senator marshall? >> maybe one more question but i want to again thank you for holding the hearings. one of the more informative hearings we have had. a great panel. this is what i came to the senate was to solve problems like this. to solve water conservation to leave the world cleaner, healthier saver than we found it, to make sure future generations have water. i talk about farmers and ranchers being the original conservationist. soil conservation and now it's our generations turned to take those next steps as well. i appreciate the input today. i want to close with one question for doctor herbert. the reason my wife and i support ducks unlimited is you do a great job taking government dollars, the dollars you raised any work with local farmers, local ranchers. you spend it like it your own money. we appreciate that. you come back to my original question for everybody that you did not get to answer. what hasn't worked? what are we throwing money away on and what would you accentuate. all these ideas are great ideas for our challenge is how prioritize the finite dollars we have and what we spend very efficiently. >> this has been said by multiple other folks from producers to the scientists. there is a very fine bounce to collect data demonstrate what works and what does not work. i mean biophysical data on weather, fire, sufficiency's and financial data on how these interact with our producers return on investment. there is a very fine balance their bread for us as i said earlier flexibility allows us to leverage public and private dollars against farm bill dollars has been extremely important for experimenting with new types of practices. >> can you describe a project you are excited about that's really work? what does that look like? >> our interaction is a great example where we have close to $100 million that are leveraging and's other funds have worked with various industry partners and agribusiness to develop new technologies like poly pipe that reduce water use and increase efficiency. it is a really exciting partnership because it is bringing together data on things like water efficiency and water quality. in bringing this together with data on production and the sustenance of waterfowl gives multiple flyaway spread that partnership was born on the flexibility of the rcp program. and our ability to get almost 20 staff out infield to talk to producers. and not is the most exciting thing about some of these programs that start with the landowner. >> thank you under marshall. i just have a couple quick questions for you. first i completely agree that everything you said about our cpp. that is an example of flexibility outcome based and partnership driven. given the data we all now collect measure those outcomes an opportunity to move the farm bill forward because ducks unlimited is cherished on both sides of the aleck you could talk a little bit about what the effect of this persistent route. >> thank you for that question senator. i will start the caveat i'm a water scientist not waterfowl scientist. i've spent years with my colleagues discussing these issues and this current drought has become an accomplice with the pandemic which is limited with water at waterfowl other migratory birds. so drop in central california about half the breeding population and that flyaway. as i mentioned before we mentioned at the basement which once provided 25000 acres of wetland as of last fall they were 600 acres of wetland. and that is attributed to a botulism outbreak that killed 50000 birds buried the water exchange stresses in therapy we know in the eastern part of the northern great plains that great pothole reason the duck factory. we are coming out of a two year drought. i was just in the prairies and things look much better than they did two years ago. but we know then at least north dakota population declined 25% just over that year drought cycle. so the implications are profound for not just waterfowl but migratory birds that depend on these resources. i believe the fish and wildlife statistic 40% of all wildlife depend on wetlands for some portion of their lifecycle. these droughts do have a pretty profound impact on not just waterfowl but many, many species of wildlife that are economically and culturally important to us. >> thank you doctor herbert. after shelton got asked my last question of you. going to the question of accountability and priorities that senator marshall raised, what would you like to see out of the money that is in the infrastructure bill that is going to force straight i think of that is a good down payment. we have a much greater need than that. but still, how would you like to see that money is spent so we are doing it well? could you reinforce what you think the unmet need is in terms of fourth street in the west? >> thank you for that question senator bennett. i certainly think the estimates when the forest service and from partners like i mentor 40 -- 60 billion over the next ten years to really make a dent in reducing risk to communities and protecting watersheds. there is a still a huge unmet need to address that and investments in our forest. and that's going to be a long-term need to maintain our forest. once we invest in reducing those fields would then have to maintain those conditions to get a return on investment. that is going to mean putting prescribed fire on those lands to keep fuels lower. it's going to mean ongoing thinning and working those areas near communities and watersheds. so i think that is something we do think of as a nation as a long-term investment in our fire adaptive forest if we really want to maintain them for a water supply and carbon storage. when we are thinking about where to invest i think that the tenure strategy the forest service in terms of investing. communities and pretty water spreads under forest is where i really want to focus investments but there are a few other things that can guide this investors over the next few years. we know that regions and states in their state forest action processes have identified a lot of priorities. a lot of that was done under the banner of shared stewardship over the last several years. looking to states and local people to say where are your true priorities and where you have community-based capacity to implement them? that's going to be really important. we want to think about this in two ways, one or do we want to invest in terms of the forest in the ecology but where do we want to invest in changing our fire culture and really creating communities that are fire adapted. where do we want to invest in people and places that are ready to do that? the work takes a lot of capacity from community based partners do we want to start where we have collaborative history and partnerships in place, things like cfl rp and the joint use program have been working well. in them and have a more long-term vision how do we invest in places for longer-term capacity. maybe places that have not quite built the collaborative would not had investments in the past we don't keep investing the same places where they've got it going on. went to also build that in other have more underserved communities. thinking long-term about how we build that capacity to do for street work, to do prescribed fire and cultural burning to support tribes to drink cultural burning is really critical in the long run for going to maintain those forest ecosystems to last for. >> thank you for that and thank you to the panel. this has been an excellent panel i appreciate what you said about why you came to the senate. this is the point of it. it's supposed to get people that have different points of view, different geographies, different perspectives, get them in a room and try to hash out solutions these kind of partnerships are what we need. because of fire it does not know any political jurisdiction at all. it can cross from county land, and to private land, and they're not making any more water nobly squint that'll solve these problems alone for the producers in this country cannot solve it by themselves for the federal government certainly cannot sell it by itself. and i hope today at the start of being able to help align some these goals and objectives and partnerships. i certainly look forward to the work were going to be doing in the next farm bill to address with the landscape looks like in the 21st century what are producers and others need. so thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today. answering such a tremendous ranking member pat also want to thank your staff who did great work with my staff as well. went to the other centers that were here, thank you for showing up risk any additional statements or questions you may have for the record be submitted to the committee clerk five business days from today or at 5:00 p.m. next tuesday june 14, 2022. hearing is adjourned. >> assis manager unfiltered view of government. funded by these television companies and more including comcast. >> do you think this is just a community center? no it is way more than that. comcast is parting with 1000 committee centers to create wi-fi enabled list serve so students from low income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. comcast support c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> not on cspan2 the look at impact on gun violence with safety advocates and those directly affected by recent mass shootings. that is followed by british prime minister boris johnson taking questions from members of the house of commons after surviving a no-confidence vote by members of his own party and later the head of the food and drug administration doctor rock robert caleb testifies in with the fda is doing to address the baby formula shortage. student described how she survived the deadly mass shooting at robb elementary school in new uvalde, texas by covering herself and her classmates bled and play dead for theirs to estimate the house oversight committee hearing from the parents of a student who died in uvalde and the mother of a 21-year-old who was wounded and at last month's supermarket shooting in buffalo, new york.

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