Is expected to continue work on health care reform, halting Committee Hearings next month. Next, customs and financial crimes officials discuss efforts to combat the illicit art and antiquities trade at a House Financial Services subcommittee hearing. It runs about an hour and 15 minutes and was cut short after final votes in the house were called for the week. [inaudible conversations] the subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, the chairs able to call at anytime. Members not on the illicit finance may participate in todays hearing. All members will have five legislative days with which to submit extraneous materials for the record. This hearing is entitled the exploitation of Cultural Property, examining the legal act dignity and antiquities and our trade. I now recognize myself for two minutes to give an opening statement. Most of the statement is going to be simply presented for the record. Just to talk about the nature of this sale of historical artifacts, archaeological artifacts, the isis groups now destroying entire Cultural Properties and putting them on the market for sale. Then he goes into terrorism. That is what we are here discussed today. The rest of my statement will be printed into the record and with that i would yield two minutes to the gentleman or mr. Colorado, mr. Perlmutter. Thank you, mr. Chairman. History has shown that art and cultural antiquities have always been trafficked due to their value. Traffic. Sorry, trafficked due to their values. Im going to start over. Is that okay, mr. Chairman . I will yield you a new five minutes. History shown that cultural antiquities have always been trafficked due to their value. Not the famously countless for during world war ii, which will never fully be recovered. We know that war and chaos create instability in an environment for Cultural Heritage sites and antiquities are easily pillaged. The black market in works of art is becoming as lucrative as those for drugs and weapons in counterfeit goods. Evidence suggests some 50,000 to 100,000 works of art are stolen each year worldwide. 10 of stolen art is covered in successful prosecution occurs less frequently. Lawenforcement agency which from all accounts, appear to be working collaboratively with each other as well as International Bodies and the private sector to address this problem. I would hope the u. S. Government with illegal trafficking in priority and encourage strong interagency efforts. Some of the questions i hope we can answer today or how can we better regulate marketplaces for these valuable pieces of art are exchanged. What the buyers of stolen art and how can we track them better . What steps can be taken to better as vulnerable sites and how our funds related to these antiquities be used to underwrite terrorist organizations . Would that come out forward to learning more from our witnesses and the yield that, mr. Chairman. The chairman now yield one minute to the gentleman from north carolina, mr. Pittenger. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for hosting this important briefing today relative to the Illicit Trade and how it funds terror. As you know, last year the task force held a similar hearing on this matter. I am pleased that are new subcommittee is continuing our work on this issue. The United States government must posture strongly against any and all financing method. The testimony of our witnesses first we have alyson grinder, the Deputy Assistant secretary for policy in the bureau of education of Cultural Affairs at the u. S. Department of state. She is a better a Foreign Service officer with 26 years of experience in policy formulation and advancement, International Program development and management, grandson budget oversight and evaluation performance measures. From 20142015 she served as minister counselor for Public Affairs of the u. S. Embassy in baghdad leading the Mission Strategic indications of Public Diplomacy outreach efforts in the wake of the 2014 incursions of isis in iraq and syria. Dr. Bryant dams as Research Associate at the Smithsonian Institution where he pursues scholarly work about Cultural Property protection antiquities trade and intentional destruction of culture on religious sites during conflict. Hes also the director of research and programs for the Cultural Heritage center at university of pennsylvania museum. Also he is concerned with the preservation of indigenous heritage has worked over 18 years with native American Community in the United States on issues related to political sovereignty, cultural repatriation and heritage preservation. Dr. Daniels holds a phd in anthropology and history from university of pennsylvania, an d ma in history than university of pennsylvania and a ba in anthropology from San Francisco state university. Mr. Raymond villanueva as assistant director for holman security, office of international operations. Hes responsible for budget more than 160 million in the operation oversight of over 62 offices in 46 countries, a department of defense liaison offices with over 400 personnel. He has served in numerous key positions at hsi including groups supervised financial crimes and asset forfeiture, Removal Group in buffalo, new york, section chief for the finance and proceeds of crime units in washington, d. C. , unit chief for the trade transparency unit in washington, d. C. , assistant special counsel agent in charge for the hsi San Juan Office and most recent Deputy Assistant director for hsi international operations. Each of you will be recognized for five minutes to give an oral presentation. Without objection each of your written statements will be made part of the record. Ms. Grunder, you are recognized for five minutes. [inaudible] you might turn on your mic. Sorry. Thank you, chairman pearce, Ranking Member perlmutter, and members of the subcommittee on terrorism and illicit finance for inviting me and my colleagues from dhs and the smithsonian to testify on the topic of Illicit Trade and Cultural Property by terrorist and criminal groups. Earlier i submitted detailed written testimony on the state Department Efforts over decades to reduce the belgian trafficking of Cultural Property. His work is mandated by multiple u. S. Laws and u. N. Convention letter to Cultural Property protection. The bureau of education and Cultural Affairs has the lead on Cultural Heritage protection and preservation for the state department through its Cultural Heritage center. In 1983 convention on Cultural Property implementation act, or cpi a for short laments obligations of the United States under the 1970 Unesco Convention on the means of prohibiting and preventing the illicit import export and transfer of ownership of Cultural Property. Cpctia provides a general Legal Framework in which the United States government can combat, pillage and trafficking of Cultural Property through Bilateral Agreements. These agreements or memoranda of understanding impose import restrictions on certain categories of archaeological and ethnological material determined to be in jeopardy of pillage. Import restrictions are intended to reduce incentives for looting and trafficking by keeping looted material out of the u. S. Art and antiquities market which is the worlds largest. To date pursuant to the cpia we have concluded Bilateral Agreement with 16 countries and implemented import restrictions on an emergency basis pursuant to legislation enacted by congress in 2004 and 2016 respectively for iraq in syria. In addition to negotiating Bilateral Agreements to protect Cultural Property, the state department serves served a coog role for the interagency. We convene the Culture Heritage coordinating committee consistent with the sense of congress in the 2016 protect and preserve international Cultural Property act and chaired by the ec assistant secretary. The chc c include senior representatives from the department of Homeland Security, interior, defense and justice including the fbi as well as the Smithsonian Institution. Use a also chairs the Cultural Antiquities Task force established by the department in 2004 at the direction of congress and now it working group of the chcc. Originally charged with responding to looting in iraq and afghanistan, its mandate has been expanded to combat antiquity traffic in looting of archaeological sites around the world by identifying and supporting effective Law Enforcement as well as diplomatic and training and collectors in the United States and western europe. These networks serve as stable hierarchical and functional multidecade supply chains. Existing laws in the United States such as the convention on Cultural Property implementation act of 1983 and current Law Enforcement responses are oriented towards identifying forfeiting and repatriating artifacts that are treated to these Illicit Networks. In recent years reports have linked criminal and terrorist groups to antiquity sales more directly. Some of these accounts are more credible than others. Commentators have implicated members of the Haqqani Network which is allied with the taliban and al qaeda and collecting protection money from traffickers moving looted artifacts from afghanistan into pakistan. There have been suggestions of links between the insurgency following the second gulf war and the illicit antiquities trade and iraq. Archaeological site looting began early in the Syrian Civil War and has been widespread in regions of the control of the assad regime and in areas held by various rebel groups. Since 2014 more attention has been given to the activities of daesh in syria and iraq become a media stories have attributed daesh income from illicit antiquities trade to monetary figures festering all reasonable belief. This should not distract us from the fact looted antiquities have been found in the possession of daesh leaders and militants with the documentation about the direct involvement in the trade. Additionally in may 2016 the Italian Government confirmed daesh had expanded its organized looting activity into libya as part of the collaborative enterprise with the mafia. How might traditional supply chains for the antiquities trade change in response to the interest of criminal and terrorist groups . We would expect the leaders to remain the same but the intermediaries purchasing antiquities from those leaders to be different. These buyers a likely be opportunistic and to treat antiquities as a resource similar to other illicitly trafficked resources such as diamonds, oil. We would also anticipate that their participation with very according to the underlying market value of the antiquities access to distributors, collect demand and to receive an actual success of International Efforts to restrict the sale of illicitly trafficked antiquities on legal art market. It is also important to note the association between archaeological site looting and criminal groups is not only an international problem. In the United States native american archaeological sites are targeted by looters particularly and southwest were searching for pottery and other materials for sale to intermediaries. At the border of oregon california where i conducted archaeological projects recent prosecutors broke up a criminal gang selling methamphetamines and looted archaeological material. At present we do not have sufficient consultation with tribal communities or the basic research completed to understand how these domestic Illicit Networks might operate in a transnational context. In summary theres good reason to suspect illicit antiquities trade is going to a reconfiguration that involves the integration of organized criminal networks and terrorist groups. Unlike the more traditional illicit antiquities trade which archaeologists have known well, these developers require additional study and interdisciplinary collaboration with criminologist and political scientists who are more familiar with research about illicit criminal networks and terrorist. In an effort to know precisely these collaborations a group of 15 u. S. International universities and museums came together to form the conflict Culture Research network. I coordinate this project and the National ScienceFoundation Supported its planning. Our knowledge about the illicit antiquities trade as well as the amount of funding earned by criminal enters actors from it slowly improve as Additional Research is done. Im happy to answer any questions from the committee as i am able. Thank you very much. Thank you, dr. Daniels. Mr. Villanueva, you are recognized for five minutes. Good morning chairman pearce, Ranking Member perlmutter and distinguished members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss immigration and Customs EnforcementHomeland Security investigations will refer to as hsi, efforts to protect Cultural Property, art and antiquities and to mitigate the trafficking both into and out of the United States. Before i move any further than men and women of i. C. E. Stand with those as a nation was confronted with the awful occurrence last week. This morning i would like to describe exercise Cultural Property in march antiquity efforts also known as cpa a program and disclose important collaborate with our partners on these issues. Last week i would like to highlight some of our Cultural Property cases. Why is this a sign with cpa a . Theres a couple of reasons for that. Federal customs law prohibits smuggling and trafficking of all merchandise to include cpa a. Additionally hsi border provides us with the responsibility and unique tools to take the lead role in investigating Crimes Involving the import, export and distribution of stolen or looted Cultural Property. As the largest Investigative Agency within dhs, hsi works with tribal, federal, state and local Law Enforcement, private institutions, intergovernmental organizations and foreign governments on these cases. We also worked with the department of justice and other to prosecute individuals and organizations responsible for these crimes. To ensure we established the cpaa Program Based at our office of international operations. The program has a threepart mission. First one is training and education. As mentioned we partner with the department of state, the Smithsonian Institution and we are trained more than 400 Law Enforcement professionals including hsi special agents, borders and protection offices, prosecutors, in Agency Partners and on for the officers on the presentation, protection and investigation of culture of property. Second one is investigations support. The cpa Program Helps identify subject Matter Experts to authenticate items that might have cultural and religious significance and act as liaison to the interpol, fbi and other Law Enforcement agencies. To the program we support over 6000 special agents hsi special agents in more than 200 domestic offices throughout the United States. We also work to our network of International Offices at 67 embassies and consular offices throughout the world where our investigators collaborate with partners such as which is italy force responsive for combating arts and antiquities crimes. And third is the repatriation, cpaa a program facilitates legal forfeiture process and eventual repatriation of cultural i didnt cease the result of hsi investigations through the rightful owners. Whether through a Simple Exchange for a grand ceremony held at the embassies here in washington, d. C. , this highlights soy grand objects themselves as well as the women and men who brought the criminals to justice. Since 2007 hsi incarnation with cbp, the department of state has reached more than 8000 a struggle objects objects artifacts to more than 30 countries around the world. One of our largest Cultural Property efforts is operation hidden files but the one of our two specialized teams who are in new york and los angeles. The case began in 2007 out of our new york team and as result in the seizure of 3000 artifacts, six arrests, five convictions and execution of more than 50 search warrants. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify and for a continued support not only to hsi but to the lawenforcement mission as hell. We remain committed to working with this committee and our partners to mitigate the trafficking of Cultural Property regardless of the source. And finally i would like to direct your attention to the pictures that provide some examples of the incredible piece of history we had ceased and properly returned. Thank you very much and i will answer any questions you may have. Thank you, mr. Villanueva. I now yield myself five minutes for questions. If i were going to make this more personal to give the example about five years ago i received a call from a good friend of mine who was one of the officers in one of the tracks in mexico. It seemed significantly internet come across a mask, a cultural mask come from his tribe, 150, 200 years before, and so he went online and bought it, about 23,000 i think was i think was the purchase price. There was a second one in the next lot being on an indian reservation, the internet went down and he missed the second one. Now, his description to me about the effect is what really caught my attention that he and his wife have lost a child in childbirth anything when internet went down, losing that second article was the equivalent and made them feel as bad as when he lost the child in childbirth. So then it began to penetrate that we need to be doing more. So mr. Villanueva, how long does it take to track and prosecute the case . Just a simple case. Just roughly. Weve got a lot of questions here. Thank you for the question. All cases are different. We look at cases on a casebycase basis. This case will be talk about Cultural Property, arts and antiquities, and following the explanation of dr. Daniels which is very poignant these organizations are extremely apartment allies to the looters to the intermediaries and can be quite collocated. Collocated in years is what i want to. Say the top left artifact, whats the value on them . As far as the values, i would have to say we do use a value system but it is actually for the legal side of it speedy im trying to get stimulation at what the stimulation come what is the financial stimulation, doctor dans got an opinion about what Something Like that would cost on the black market . It depends at which level of the market that is exiting traffic at. And an object like that at the top left, but be worth in the tens of thousands of dollars on the black market. Okay. So you get, you have basically rights and title once the thing is in trade back and forth, he can stay in trade in a particular market for years. Is it anyway to regulate that particular transfer back and forth . Is it being regulated now . Mr. Villanueva, i would guess, ms. Grunder can you may have an opinion on this. Do you mind repeating the question . Once an article has been gotten and sold into a market competent and we traded back and forth between collectors who know each other and never leave the country. Is it anyway to regulate that chain of ownership right now . So that peace was i can import into the United States i didnt say that. If it stays out there circulating in a country, no way to track, people are actually identify it, they are insuring it. They put it on their inventory but thats the way to track it if there is . You are absolutely correct. If the pieces outside the United States, our ability to track that as you as Law Enforcement is limited. We then rely on the art markets, the vendors and the supply chain to notify Law Enforcement of the peace. But to your point your correct. Ms. Grunder, very quickly if you will address that if you have an opinion. Primarily in the area of training and building awareness of the Illicit Trade, and we work very closely with dhs on that sort of activity. Okay. So the stimulation is always money, right . I read your testimony and we are talking about focusing on repatriation. Sometimes we focus on our prosecution. It seems to me the better, just my perspective, the better weight is affecting the value. So i imagine that open sourcing, just people out there who are aware of the property is being destroyed and taken, if they had someone to it into a database, chain analysis of whatever it is, that we see this property being taken. Theyre not even in the product distribution, anything like that, but then you can imagine if we appeal to the collectors, shortly one out of 100 would of some sort of moral sense that i just cant, i cant let it go by that ive been approached t by something i think is illegal. They just in that into the system. The system begins to identify, just maybe scattered here, there are, down the future five years, here it is again. Now we see that somebody reported it back here. Its surface briefly here, its there. But each one of those identification points tries to value down. If you can affect the value, people are less likely to get in. If you dont think they can get their million bucks back it would not put 1 million bucks into a significant piece. I just think we got to be thinking at least in some way to interdict the value to that would be much easier than prosecution, much easier and inventory tracking. Lets think more about it. My time is expired to regulate the judgment from colorado, mr. Perlmutter, for five minutes. Thanks, mr. Chairman. So my experience with all of this comes mostly from watching tv, and madam secretary and the different episodes theyve had on stolen art and the destruction of antiquities and that kind of stuff. So i apologize for not really understanding this. Dr. Daniels, you are a couple sentences in your testimony today. I would like to inquire a little bit more so that we actually understand to the best of our ability how this works here how eventually from these antiquities, from the artworks, from the artifacts get come somebody gets money to do bad things around the world. So first the fat is bad and then they underwrite activities that are detrimental to america. So you talked about your workshop that you conducted back in 2014 before daesh advanced into syria. And you say we learn more about the culture risks of the professionals are trying to study these antiquities. Id like to follow more about that. And you talk about daesh, what they did was they had a tax in effect across the territory where the allowed looters to come in to a particular area, take stuff, and then there was a 20 tax. Id like to know a little more about that. And then during her testimony and in your report you talk about nevertheless, such i should not distract us. I want to know what you meant by that. So if you would. Thank you very much. So let me take the first question about the workshop we help in 2014 and sent to turkey. That particular workshop gathered together a group of on syrian Cultural Heritage professionals outside come in areas outside of the control of the assad regime that were caught in the conflict and caught in the cross for it to be preserving Cultural Property under their jurisdiction. It was primarily focused on archaeological sites in northwestern syria and museums and mosaics in what we call the dead city area. And what we learned from them was they were deeply concerned about extremism. They were deeply concerned about entities such as daesh but they were also very concerned about barrel bombs by the assad regime and this was their primary concern about how, how they could protect collections from aerial bombardment, and this is in large measure what our discussions actually focus on in that context. As far as the tax we learned about those being conducted, the 20 tax and was variable according to area and the type of artifact that was actually discovered. That was something that appeared to be a new innovation in terms of organized and systematize looting. I understand the committee has been briefed by the fbi on developments subsequent to 2014 in particularly regard to the raid and what this really represented was an organized way for a criminal and terrorist organization to benefit from the antiquities trade and raise speedy let me just stop it because im trying to figure that out. So did somebody from daesh hire an art appraiser to say okay, this is what this stuff is worth, and then the daesh militants, whoever they were, the isis folks say to the looters, okay, we have appraised this and you will pay is 20 , you can take it. Generally speaking to impress archaeologist and other Cultural Heritage professionals into their service. To appraise it. To appraise. All right. And so when i mentioned the hype in my remarks, one of the concerns that we have an Archaeological Community is speculation about how much an entity like daesh or any other terrorist organization actually earns on the illicit antiquities trade. I have been in both the United States and internationally with member such a six and million or 2 billion have been floated. That strange my imagination. And i think its incumbent upon us as archaeologist who research of this to be circumspect in the kinds of claims that we make because it is such a strong claim to talk about the looting of antiquities and the market. We need to be realistic about the kinds of monetary figures that we share with members of congress and other policymakers such as yourselves. Thank you and i yield back. The time of the gentleman has expired. The gentleman from colorado mr. Pittenger, from north carolina, mr. Pittenger is recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I do like colorado. Thank you to each of you for being with us today, for your expertise that you offer our committee. I would like to know what congress can do and what more can be done to strengthen our sanctions laws, or any policy tools that we could pursue to ensure that we could put an end to daesh and its antiquities trade. Who may like to comment on that . Dont fight over it now. Thank you, congressman. We really welcome engagement of congress in this really important issue. And i just wanted to add to the comments of dr. Daniels. Explication of Cultural Properties by terrorist groups like isis is a dual edged, and we just cant underestimate that terror value of blowing up and destroying these sites. I appreciate that. What a need to find it is anything we can be doing more in congress to facilitate our capabilities . As you know we set up the Cultural Heritage coordinating committee in response to the sense of congress from last summers legislation and we are Going Forward with that very senior coordinating body to strengthen our enforcement as much as possible. To your question, to date we have treated the antiquities trade are merely as a problem of a trade. And import restrictions to reduce the incentives to loot and also access to u. S. Markets for those looted materials. Thats an important first step. But to date there has not been any really creative thinking about how we would address the issue of antiquities looting around financial crimes. There hasnt been the kind of conversation about what laws or policies would actually look like at that nexus. I would like to delve into technology. Technology being used right now to address this Illicit Trafficking that you are aware of, image recognition, solutions apply to certain objects . Works are we sophisticated now with our technology or are we adequate, do we have capabilities of there . Image Recognition Software today is barbara lee based on facial recognition and shadows as a technology. And, unfortunately, those kinds of technology dont translate well to flat Services Like pottery. We are not quite at the level of technical sophistication to really make an app for that as it were. How about trade base Money Laundering . Do the use tradebased Money Laundering as a means to transfer these objects . From the tradebased Money Laundering perspective, it will take money from illicit source to buy a commodity and then shipping that commodity across international boundaries. So yes, it is very possible shipping out something from one country to another. Actually. You are changing the shape of the money into a commodity, shaping the commodity selling that commodity and, therefore, laundering illicit funds. So is is a possibility . We have a trade transparency unit which is one of my old jobs that dedicate their time and effort, 100 , to pursue tradebased Money Laundering by working with the customs administrations of the world that are trading data to do the type of work. Something that we Law Enforcement we are looking at and its very possible. Do we need to strengthen our capabilities in terms of tbml . And other countries, are they collaborating with us . Do you see a commitment in terms of our partners in being able to have the technology and a commitment to oversee tbml . Yes, sir. We do. We work very well with International Community. A little bit at different but sometimes we encounter is some customs administration, they are not Law Enforcement where in the u. S. We carry and Law Enforcement mission but then we work with the National Police force and the customs administration, so theres good partnership, theres many countries that are willing to work with us under the customs mutual assistance agreements that are employed throughout the world. My time is about up. Thank you so much. Yield back. The time of the gentleman has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from illinois, mr. Foster. Thank you. Thank you to everyone here. This very tragic subject. What is the rough fraction of safe daesh secondary market in terms of regions of the world . Western europe, asia, the goal states and other arab states in north america. Just in rough terms. Are there other trends in that . How effective have we been, for example, in western europe and north america to at least restrict purchases to welldocumented, things have been documented to be in museums and then disappear . As well as items that were lifted out of the ground without documentation at all in the last couple of years. I think that the short answer to the question is that generally speaking and the environment it takes six to nine years for the antiquities themselves to surface publicly at the sort of in stage of the distribution note. What we do know about the antiquities that weve seen looted from syria more broadly that are not possible to link to daesh itself is that they are generally being transshipped through Southeast Asia, through countries such as singapore, indonesia and thailand, and then back to markets in western europe. Western europe predated the United States in placing import restrictions on looted material from syria, the European Union was very quick on this particular issue, and germany very much so has been very focused on clamping down this kind of trade. So we are not at the moment able to actually parse out in strict percentages where safe daesh michio is specifically going to different Market Countries and destinations. What we can say is that we suspect this picture is in the pipeline again from transshipment records that weve seen from Southeast Asia. We can also suspect that as ms. Grunder mentioned the United States is the largest art market nation. Other significant art market nations include china, include russia, include the gulf states, saudi arabia, qatar and the emirates. And so our suspicion is that we may see some kind of restructuring as these materials begin to surface, and they may not necessarily appear in say western europe as you might have typically expected say after the iraq war. Certainly the traditional modern and more modern art market, china is a huge player, and asia general. It would not be surprising to find them equally large. So we have no way of guessing the percentage of stuff that is transshipped to Southeast Asia and then doesnt even had for the northern at the moment weve not been able to review the transshipment records from a research perspective, and i really dont know the extent to which there may be ongoing Law Enforcement investigations in the United States on that subject. How important is a documentation of an artifact to its value on the secondary market . The preliminary research that weve done suggests that documentation of the artifact will increase the value of the object somewhere in the order of 40 . You can count that as a discount if the object is completely on providence without documentati documentation. Are fake artifacts, is a technology to make fake artifacts officially advanced that that is watering down the valley of nondocumented artifacts, or not yet . What are the interesting things about the Syrian Crisis is there is been flourishing a fake antiquities Market Insight syria that him anyway showed up first in the United States and in western europe. These are very clearly fake. But theres enough expertise that exists within the International Art market to understand, to determine the difference between a fake and a real object that im not sure if that any kind of effect on depressing prices. Which is a funny way of may be encouraging, that the real that is being diluted by incompetent forgeries. I had another, in my last time, a couple years ago daesh started issuing gold coins with intention of destroying the u. S. Dollar. I was wondering are those, i presume they are pretty much worthless except for their intrinsic value. Have they started to acquire value on the secondary market as just a coin of another dead or dying country . I have not seen any evidence to date of extensive collection of the daesh coins here although ive heard from Law Enforcement officials outside the United States that there is a collectors market in some objects in the gulf states. All right. I guess my time is up. Thank you. The time of the gentleman has expired. The chair recognize the gentleman from arkansas, mr. Hill. Thank the chairman. Thank the Ranking Member for bringing this important subject back and certainly want to thank mr. Daniels, dismissals work around the United States and Museum Education and repatriation of cultural artifacts in coordination with our native americans around the country, its been a great 20 years of the work that dismissal he has done on that. When i think about this subject, to me from my reading, destruction, simple, malicious terrorist destruction seems really an equal or greater motivation than making money as a channel for the islamic state. One of my favorite books last year was reading the bad ass librarians of timbuktu which i commend to my colleagues as a terrific book of just simply the subsaharan terrorist organizations connected with al qaeda and the islamic state, and others, just the relentless effort to destroy thousands of years of islamic manuscripts just because they could. So i hope that you will recommend to the Treasury Department that when secretary mnuchin goes to the gulf this year to discuss this goal states headquartered terror finance unit that this issue of antiquities transfer be put on his agenda in the gulf state because ive no doubt if you wanted a relic from the levant, it seems like that would have highvalue among gulf states, actors with funding. Following up on dr. Fosters comments about the buy side, on the sell side where is, in your view, the major leakage of cultural artifacts . Are they primarily exiting through turkey to these other markets you described . Or to the coast, summer on the mediterranean . Talk to me about where you think we should be most vigilant at looking for the leakage. Thank you for the question here the turkish Law Enforcement has actually very much stepped up to the Current Crisis about archaeological site looting and the numbers of artifacts that the Turkish Police forces have actually recovered are actually quite extraordinary and point to the effectiveness of their Law Enforcement response. My own view on this is that much of the large antiquities, not the small antiquities but the large antiquities, were actually smuggled from syria into iraq to mosul itself. Some of the members may be aware that not all plane flights stopped to mosul during the present iraq crisis, and my suspicion is that, or my working theory is that many of those artifacts were smuggled in thise plane flights, particularly the large plane flights, and into the Southeast Asian route that weve actually seen crop up. Some smaller artifacts especially earlier in the conflict were likely smuggled out through the Regional Networks that long been established and routed through lebanon which is been up and major transshipment point and sales. 4 antiquities in the middle east for the better part of the last 75 or 100 years. Thank you. Thats responsive to i think it guides the debate and also the department of state i think on where to place emphasis in trying to step up working with our customs people and are experts on how to target the stopping of those that do get transshipped. On a separate subject, of course we center all of our Money Laundering work on the Banking System because we always believe that people try to turn whatever they have in the Global Market to cash and, therefore, the nicest place to track that is in a financial institution. Of course we know now in Todays Society that thats not necessary the most accurate. So do you think that the International Art community should be required perhaps to file a suspicious activity report to someplace or among each other in a self regulatory or cooperative basis . I would be interested in your views on that, how you think those red flags could be used in maybe a more effective way. Whoever would like to respond to that. That is embarrassing question actually. On interesting question. On the money part, if the received more than 10,000, in cash, theyll have to do the form 8300. As far as the suspicious activity reports, they went and kill a change in theyre not a Money Service business. They are an art dealer but i would defer to experts in terms of suspicious activity reports as it pertains to the art market. As far as the money side of the house that would entail little changes. They are not necessarily known as a Money Service business however there are mechanisms in place to contact Law Enforcement, and some of them have done that quite proactively when they come across two different artifacts that are questionable to their expertise. They are the experts, so if we think of using the analogy, if you think in terms of the art dealers as we think of the banks which are the front line of defense for financial transaction, then art dealers are the first line of defense for us when it comes to the selling of looted artifacts. We would love to work more with them. We are doing a lot of work with that community in terms of outreach, using their expertise here but i will defer to my colleagues at the table on the cpaa for the Cultural Property side of the house. The time of the gentleman has expired. That shared a recognize the gentleman from nevada, mr. Kihuen. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for making them and thank you all this money for being here with talk of such an important subject. Just a couple of questions. In your opinion how best isis approach to collecting payments from looters changed through the Coalition Airstrikes in 2014 began to choke off of the resources of revenue, including the sale of oil . That goes for any of you. I mean, i would think two things on this. I think that the information that we actually, that we understand about how this market actually operates certainly became much more fragmented. In my view since the Coalition Airstrikes actually began. And so in some ways we are operating in an apartment where it is not entirely clear. What i am aware of is that about the time of the Coalition Airstrikes began, it became harder to move material and this is what my colleagues who ive been working with in syria tell me. At that juncture theres also a problem of actually determining the price point in many of these antiquities and many at the first buyer intermediaries began to miss identify in many ways the valley of the antiquities either grossly over evaluating or grossly undervaluing pointing to the fact may be summed expertise they were relying on had escaped or the wasnt as much coordination because of the disruption caused by the Coalition Airstrikes. And mr. Villanueva, your testimony notes that your agency has a Robust International presence through a network of attaches at 67 different embassies and consulates. Of these attaches, how many of them have expertise to do with art and antiquities . And in your view, is additional tray for such personnel warranted . Thank you for the question. So yes, we do actually, part of our training as ms. Grunder mentioned we train some of our agents stationed abroad. There are some offices that are heavily engaged. I mentioned the italian. Our office in rome within the embassy under the chief of Mission Works very close with our foreign partners on that. Let me say this. We do have subject Matter Experts in our office in d. C. We work very close with this mystery, with department of state. So if any of our agents, any of our 6000 agents, whether domestically or abroad comes across to a case an allegation involving cpaa, even if theyre not trained, they do have Resources Available immediately. People that we can deploy, people that can talk to them on the phone to help guide that investigation. Guided. Thank you. And then just my last question, and you might have answered this before a guy here but what portion of the funds that are raised on direct looting by isis itself versus the ring imposing taxes licenses on the civilian population . I think that one of the issues with the amount of money identified from isis is that we are really not clear right now about parsing out the exact dollar figure from isis. The best information i think that it is existed today on that is a Financial Information that was retrieved from the rate and then again my understanding is that the committee was briefed on that particular raid in closed session. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I used the remainder of my time. That shared a recognize a gentle and from support of the mississippi river, mr. Poliquin. Mr. Chairman, that would be the great state of maine. Vacation, if you havent booked your Summer Vacation to make you should do so now. Yankee gentleman and ms. Grunder for being here. We appreciate this. This is a concern to all americans want to make sure we preserve World History and culture and include here in the United States. We spent a lot of time talking about this alyssa trade over in the middle east and other parts of this great earth but what about right here in america . We had a real problem in our great state of maine with an opioid and heroin addiction and epidemic i should say. Its a real concern for its effective all of our families, or most of our families, and theres been a little bit of discussion today about Illicit Trade and antiquities here, right here in historical artifacts in america. Id like to ask you egd to weigh in as quick as gets i get to some of questions. Ms. Grunder, we will start with you. Do you have any feel for how much of this Illicit Trade in antiquities and historical artifacts has an impact on illicit drug trade here in america . Thank you for the question. We believe that there are commonalities between all the different forms of Illicit Trade, bu but i would have to le it to the experts thank you. Dr. Daniels. Right now we really do not have a very good sense about the relationship between native american looting and the illicit drug trade, except and insofar as many of the native american Cultural Property cases that have emerged have drug ties to either methamphetamines or to opioids. But it is happening . It is deathly happening. My own view on this and my working theory on this is about the looting of the archaeological sites provides a form of basic capital for drug producers to begin the operations. Mr. Villanueva, weve got to choke off the financing to anybody whos trying to sell this poison to our kids and our families, whether it be maine, hampshire o hampshire any other part of the country. Do you have information for the panel on this . You mention financial as it pertains to drug trafficking. Our Agency Brings many years, over 40 years of financial investigation expertise. As a matter fact, i have spent over 25 years in my career as a money launder investigator. Do we have a connection between the illegal drug trade and heroin and opioid in america with respect to the selling of our historical artifacts here within our borders . What i can say at this point is we have not seen investigations on cpaa specifically on opioids, but i would have to limit my comments at this point. Thanks. Lets dig into another issue. Dr. Daniels, ill start with you. Tell us about how a free port works and how a free port might have an impact on the trait of illicit artifacts or the Illicit Trade of historical artifacts in fueling the drug trade across the world. Generally speaking with a free port we expect antiquities trade to follow the free ports. Free port setser as gallery spaces, for distributors to actually speak there are warehouses at different parts, ports of entry by the world, correct . That is correct. And so these warehouses serve as the showrooms, as conservation centers, they Service Areas for the longterm holding of antiquities while the increase in value or the taint disappears over the passage of time. And bradburys any comment on that issue in particular . I agree with dr. Daniels. What i want to highlight is that the free trade zones in the u. S. Are a little bit different to those abroad. Free trade zones in u. S. Are heavily regulated, customs and Border Protection, they do great work in that space, a teeny merchandise in the United States going in and out of a free trade zone is subject to shipping documents such as country of origin, description, valuation. Very similar to the shipping information when they are bringing merchandise into our commerce or out of the United States with this as an impact on Terrorism Financing around the world. Does the United States government have any kind of jurisdiction in those free zones in other countries, in other parts of the world . Only if it pertains to merchandise coming in to our commerce. Thank you, mr. Chairman very much. I yield back my time and thank you all for being here today. That chair recognizes the gentlelady from new york, ms. Maloney. Thank you for holding this important hearing on the theft of cultural antiquities. Its long been interested might and this is hardly a new practice. In the early 1800s when greece was under ottoman rule a british dublin took over 100 pieces of the historic parthenon in athens, and under very questionable circumstances he then sold it is artifacts known as the parthenon marbles, or sculptures, to the British Museum where they remain today. This is probably the most important antiquities in greece, prepared, developed by greek artist, owned by the greeks and yet a representative of an occupying nation sold within. He certainly didnt have the right to sell them so in effect in my opinion they were stolen. And if introduced a resolution that calls for the two countries to negotiate a return of the parthenon marbles, because these artifacts have incredible cultural significance to the greek people. But the story of the parthenon marbles in many ways mirrors the modern problems that we face in the illegal antiquities market. The british nobleman thomas bruce took these artifacts while the ottomans were ruling greece and then was able to profit when he sold them to a museum. Like today there are terrorist organizations like isis who steal cultural artifacts and territories that they occupy and then convert them to cash by selling them on the black market in order to fund their terrorist organizations. Of course if there were not a secondary market for stolen antiquities, then terrorists and criminals would not see these artifacts as potential sources of revenue in the first place. So i have two questions to ask the panel, and id like to start with mr. Villanueva. First, is it the lack of agreedupon and enforceable standards in the antiquities market that makes it so attractive to criminals and terrorists to sell these artifacts, or other terrorist just using the antiquities market simply because the areas they currently occupy happen to have lots of valuable antiquities . And weve been called to a vote. So i would say that when were talking about Cultural Property, arts and antiquities trafficking, we are talking about perhaps the oldest crime in the books of law. Since we have civilization and we have arts, we have the smuggling and looting of arts and antiquities. But what i would say is that you talk about the area occupied. I would also mention, there are regions with civil unrest, with rich history, traditions, arts and antiquities. So we do have as far as u. S. , i feel comfortable enforcing the laws we have. Its just working with the International Community to prevent the looting specifically as a pertains do we have standards to prevent this and antiquities market . Are people who buy these, do they have standards and laws against doing this . What are the standards that could prevent this from happening . Dr. Daniels . One of the issues in the broader antiquities market is that it is excessive for a very long time as you rightly point out, and for much of the time there is been various oversight or regulation were Due Diligence required in the passage of antiquities throughout the supply chain and ultimately onto collectors. What this is actually changed in recent years with the vigilance of the fbi crime team, hsi, and state working well with them to enforce the memorandum of understanding that we have for the specific 1 16 countries and the other two special cases, our principal issue though is that does not represent international coverage, and theres a real lack of the standards about what constitutes the documentation required for legal file for the sale of an object to the supply chain, and expectation to receive that kind of title information. How would you create the international standards, to the hague . How would it be created . What entity, United Nations . How would you make this happen internationally . Right now the approach has been very much piecemeal country by country according to the laws of possessory title in each country. To think it would be good to go to the United Nations with this effort . Im not sure there would be concurrence in the United Nations for such an actual project in that way. Im a realist politically about whats possible in that way. I think there is certainly possibilities this committee and the congress can explore in regard to legitimate title. Thank you. The since that time i was that the museum last year. Weve seen the destruction of the great mosque and i was going to ask in that vein, i would ask the panel what the Practical Impact of this legislation has been, both as it relates to stopping the Illicit Trade at antiquities and in the coordination among the respective agencies that have a stake in this fight and also other countries experiencing conflict in which he listed antiquities might enter the u. S. Market just as these antiquities taken down by ice that has been found to have entered the u. S. Market. Thank you, congressman royce. The state department has stood up Cultural Heritage in the last summer with three meeting of that senior interagency since last summer. I think it has increased coordination among our agencies at a senior level. One result that i would highlight is a recent agreement between the smithsonian and the state department to fund a project in Northern Iraq to do emergency stabilization that the ancient site of numero. Thank you for drawing attention to the preserve and a cultural act in your bipartisan leadership on this particular issue. I also want to emphasize the importance of the increased coordination capacity increased across the interagency after the chc c. Was up. What i want to also add on this regard is to protect and preserve international Cultural Property act was specific to syria in order to choke off the funding. Other countries have experienced an conflict, afghanistan, nigeria, south sudan, which all have leading issues, which all have antiquities that have the potential to enter the flow of commerce. I recently returned after a prolonged trip to europe speaking to Law Enforcement and after my conversations and those meetings, i am at this point almost more concerned about the nexus between looting in al qaeda and afghanistan than i am about daish in syria and iraq. There is no protection, no import restrictions for afghanistan. Thank you. Any other commentary . As far as the topics, i refer to my colleagues in Law Enforcement. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back. The gym and yells back and calls on mr. Krauthammer for one moment. Thank you mr. Ranking member for appearing today. Late last month, the wall street journal reported a former customs officer in new york are handled more than 60 antiquity seizures saying it is still surprisingly thick to smuggle stolen objects here. Putting to the use of career services, air cargo and session objects in passenger luggage. What additional steps at dhs, i is for tsa to disrupt and prevent the pathway into the lucrative u. S. Market . Thank you. As we mentioned training capacity to what we do to understanding this crime and the routes, it is important to both. Investigators working at the front lines. We bring the cp officers to training. We talk about the different concealment techniques. We talk about the investigative side of the houses. We talk about the preservation of the pieces. We also work with interagency and International Partners to learn about the pieces out there in the market, whether a great market for legitimate auction houses that might be coming to the border so that when our office comes across that piece, a red flag goes up. There are actually actions in place. There are efforts underway through customs and Border Protection can immigration and Customs Enforcement using our Border Authority to prevent that. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The gentlemans time has expired. We must adjourn this hearing. Thank you so much for being with us today and for your counsel. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] allen nails are the biggest generation in america right now and the Republican Party is not super popular among millennial, right . I think theres a few barriers to entry there that the face of the party is going to have to change. And on a couple issues, whether it is gay marriage for example is one of them, how do you start making changes to appeal to a new group of voters moving forward that think very differently than their parents and grandparents without alienating those parents and grandparents upon whose votes he would rely as your base to win elections right now . That is one of thero