Transcripts For CSPAN2 Freed 20240704

Charter is proud to be recognized as one of the best internet providers and we are just getting started, building 100,000 miles of new infrastructure to reach those who need it most. Charter communications along with these Television Companies supports cspan2 as a public service. Thank you for joining us for todays program, like freedom on native land with Alaina Roberts. The Newberry Library supports and inspires research and teaching and tg and learning in humanities since offending making 87 newbury has remained dedicated to deepening our collective understanding of ourselves in the world around us. We connect researchers and visitors with our collection into reading room and exhibition gallery, program spaces, classrooms and online digital resources. We have we open our doors to readers and visitors. You can visit our website neubert got work to make an appointment to do research into reading room or stop by the Library Without an appointment tuesday through saturday to visit our exhibition all. Our bookshop is open wednesday through saturday. You can visit the website digital to learn about our current exhibition and Public Program series called about the age of revolution across the americas in the late 18th and early 19th centuries the exhibition will be open until june, july 24th todays program is one example of the librarys of so the commitmeo Public Engagement and intellectual engagement. Bring together community of scholars, students and the public to discuss ideas that matter in our world today is central to the mission. We are committed to contributing to a better understanding of history in order to promote equity and crosscultural understanding it is with that obligation we would like to begin todays program with a statement about our history and the land on which the city of chicago resides. Located near the confluence of several waterways the Newberry Library sits on land that intersects with the and. The inland confederacy the. And nation and others nations. In the region of north east illinois home predict and the Indigenous People live in a serious all right their traditional teachings in my face and today, chicago is home to the largest urban Indigenous Community the United States. There remains an apartment lease for Indigenous People of the caught chicago institution, the possibility to acknowledge the Historical Context and build mystical relationships with the tribal nations onto the lands they are situated. During the program you have the opportunity to enter questions into the queue with a feature on zoom or inoo the comments sectin if youre joining us on facebook or youtube as time permits or speakers will respond to your questions. And now it is my pleasure to introduce todays speaker. Doctor Alaina Roberts is an assistant professor of history at university of pittsburg. Relief search focus on the intersection of africanamerican and native American Historyec fm the 19th century to the modern day with particular attention to identity several colonialism and not that black despair in addition to ive been here all the while black freedom on native land which is published by university of Pennsylvania Press in 2021, her writing has appeared in the washington post, the journal of civil war era in the western historical quarterly. And at this point i will hinting over to dr. Roberts. Hello. Im so happy to be here virtually to share my new book with you all. Thank you tuberose. I want to introduce myself by saying that all the research i do as a historian, professor is connected to my family. Like most people who i do not is africanamerican i come from people who were enslaved for generations. But on my fathers side by ancestors were not owned by white people. We were owned by native americans. In the 1830s they along with her chickasaw and choctaw indian others part of a jury we know today as the trail of tears making their k way to oklahoma which was then known as indian territory. During the civil waril the ownes fought for the confederacy and when the confederacy lost the United States government forced my familys owners along with other native american slaveowners to free the slaves and provide them with land. And so in about a minute i just reframed people think i about slavery, the civil war and reconstruction. All of these events that are so important to this countrys history were different from my family because they lived within Indian Nations, not within the United States retelling and reshaping this history is the core of my book, ive been here all the while. One of the key themes of my book is what ithi means that native americans adopted slavery in the first place peer ideas about race and black inferiority that we used two only associate with white people and another theme isr how after center, negate and harmful stereotypes about native americans as they migrated to the west. So this evening im going to give you an overview of history and talk to you about how i think acknowledging some of the negative interactions within black and native peoples within the past is necessary for us to Work Together as allies today. So lets start with our native americans began to own black people andga slaves. In the late 1700s and early 1800s, White American politicians and reformers encouraged native americans particularly those in east and southeast to adapt aspects of your American Culture such as language, clothing and political structures arguing this was civilized. This may be familiar to some of you. Henry the secretary of war, and president George Washington advocated what we call a policy assimilation because they believe they were more like white they would be willing to give up majority of the land this ideal world then it means that they then use the reduced land like White Americans and engage in agriculture and use and is evaluating their Communal Land ownership. And slavery became integral to oneofakind select entrance and also they encourage the native americans to meet slaveholders name for the height of the economic success predict and those with it. All Indian Tribes took on various facets of American Culture. And ignore those for example christian religion and or two things most people in the nation. [inaudible]. Landowners and my family, they did not embrace is until maybe the earliest 20 centuries of these people in this time are picking and choosing what theyre interested in and what they care about. But, many of the most influential members of five Indian Nations did enslaved black people like my family members. Literally five tribes. Seminal and turkey and others pretty did you probably heard of these tribes because of their covid19 vaccinations efforts. And so in addition to slavery with these five tribes also do things like newspapers the model of europeanamerican newspapers and create government structure similar to the United States so these are two things working really alongside each other, native american governors as well as other governors. And for these reasons because of these choose to assimilate in various ways, White Americans began calling them five civilized tribes which americans now refer to them as five tribes because five celebs tribes is complex and now along with the slaveowning development in these tribes some had the idea that the people were inferior and wild just like in the United States the majority of people do not own slaves, the ending the lisa did, was it created a culture and economy the highly values slavery and slave owners. And then in the 1830s, an event or process came alive with all of the slaveholding tribes as well as the black people who lived among them and thats integral so since contact the british add reconcile the fact that they wanted the native American Land with the reality that they didnt have the manpower the resources to just take my force, thats of the treaties and agreements with native people for partial land or control of various regions. During the colonial period and people europeans negotiated the settlement on relatively equal grounds often with native American People have more power and influence in these relationships using measures as well as war and violence. But after the revolutionary war of course the white encroachment on native American Land is increased as some sought resources and homesteads and moved farther west and as plantation south in the 19th century with five agriculturally rich, they began illegally squatting of the land the government followed during this trans passing and banned these laws over the native americans in the lead up rated as a result part of an effort to either force the indians to move as the americans had tried to get him to do since really the beginning of the country, or to allow whites to take their land. Now native American People fought against this and sometimes militarily through war or conflict but also through law which do what they were told to do and what civilized did, they used a lot. Well thieves are ultimately unsuccessful for the majority the native people especially these five tribes so you probably know, is been going on through the 1830s and present Andrew Jackson a test shows the support for white southerners with during the advocating for the indian removal act predict for good reasons, the war is considered for many tribes to be a foundational journey, a journey that solidifies theres resilience as a people. But what i want you to take from this talk is that indian removal is that same thing for many of these enslaved people who endured alongside of their owners in the five tribes. So african descendents they remove the removal and remember that is. And assure history with these tribes. So there are really two different ways of the black community and the native intersect, first that indian removal was necessary for the plantation slavery and the second, the indian removal itself involves people of african descent. Now as for these tribes rebuilding after removal, historians argue that actually they rebuilt it better than before and so they course and homes and plantations and there are many people are very economically successful and again but is been known as indian territory. But about 30 years passed in the United States is increasingly divided over slavery. And hence we have the civil war and nation who work it had influential families black women and men they were very interested in these discussions in the United States about humanity and the civil war and slavery in all these things we think about seem to this country, were also very important in the five tribes. And sometimes especially in the nations they were large over the institution of slavery in ever joining in the war. Now as a confederacy and building alliances, in an effort the confederacy talk to the five tribes, and very familiar with members of the tribe and they tell them what they want to hear the argue that they would give them what the United States has not been giving them. So they said they will allow them to have more to say and they will allow to have representation and allow them to keep the indian territory forever without White Settlement and more reliable and pay them money for the homelands. And, and for some of you elites, they would allow them to keep slavery while the union after 1863 was not. If the confederacy kept these problems, probably not after all the confederacy was partially composed of the states that had the homelands run 30 years earlier grade of us to leave the treaties were enticing to the members of the five tribes created new have a shared ideology around slavery and members of the five tribes have and think are very important. And you also have geography, so the indian territory essentially were these five tribes are located, are very close to texas arkansas and confederate strongholds and the more western part of the country this time so its important that they had some sort of protections so the practical aspects of Legal Alliance as well as shared sentiment around slavery. So it leading into the work, members of all of these tribes five of the union and the confederacy and others are refugees actually lead in a territory helping to avoid fighting or having to shoot a battle. About 14000 of fought in and around these indian territories just like in the United States number of enslaved black man five for the union or forced to work for their confederate owners doing physical labor predominantly. And when the war is over, the United States guitars the fact that some tribal members had fought for the union they ignore the fact that they had not given the five tribes any production would not give them extra meaning and munitions and instead, the United States use of the that some tribal members have fought for the confederacy against them. So the ask twice the five tribes with the confederacy as behavior probably deserving of punishment and distrust of the claim because they made an alliance and the confederacy that the United States, we had a valid treaties with them. And so they threaten to withhold money that they desperately need after a war unless they sign these treaties. They do because they have been coerced into it so these treaties are called the treaties of 1866 in service of five tribes official as well as the reconstruction documents. What, i mean, by that. Some of the most extreme items in these treaties is a session of land. So the five tribes are forced to give up a majority of the land they had really just moved on only around 30 years earlier. In the other three big items of these treaties is five tribes emancipate the enslaved people of the nations of the adopt them as citizens and they had to give them land. The chickasaw nations had to give them specifically 40 acres of land up rated farrell familiar with reconstruction are really black history in general, and you know how significance that 40 acres is because africanamericans did not get part of that said this in the United States coming into another nation Indian Nations that are supposed to have the right to create their own laws and run their own nation to be completely sovereign in just about every other way in the u. S. Is saying going to force you to free enslaved people because our we ourselves cannot do but were quite a fortune to adopt the assistance and give them all the rights of citizenship and we ourselves in 1956 have not yet done. Going to force you to give them land predict now is this right, legally now read now the nation had ordered emancipation of 1863 so they were the only ones of the five who decided to do this without direct coercion afraid of it all the others, chickasaws, choctaws, cherokees, seminoles, creeks, if they had, we dont know. What are they given their former slaves rights and citizenship. Probably not. They were given the land, probably not but this freedom, these rights and especially this land predict the former slaves of the five tribes on a different plane, the africanamericans in the United States they give them different opportunities, and these opportunities are why so many black people of emancipation why theres many black in towns and white has black wall street of course, the anniversary of the massacre just past the more people are far more aware of the black wall street in its existence. And so at this moment, and reconstruction indian territory history is really one of those interesting historical moments where my identity is both historian and dissented of former slaves which i call craig people. And i have to recognize something is legally wrong as u. S. Intervention in the foreign nation or is Indian Nation known after the turkey nation in the Georgia Supreme Court case domestic case the nation. But i also have to recognize the people like my family might never have been freight if not for these technically legal and just actions on the part of the United States. Now going to use that term for former slaves and again and again. In a free people in general target i use my work to refer to any former slaves of any of five tribes and of course more specifically, the chickasaws freed men and women specifically. And so the reason that the land designated for indian trade people of 1866 is different as historically significant is because this was black land on her throat american governments actions and they had not been able to agree on given the africanamericans in the United States, land and it was frankly impossible. Some are very republicans who are moderate to imagine taking land from a white person giving it to a black person. As im or no, Property Ownership was and continues to be one of the most revered American Values but republicans such as the secretary of interior and affairs at the time, could not given any lead to african descent. Because of the valley of land and valued private ownership is way that White Americans did. So they saw indias use use of land is uncivilized not properly utilizing the land. Therefore to them giving lenten them feels the lofty idealistic will republican called a black ownership while still allowing whites in the United States maintain their plan and so here in the United States, using this idea of indian savagery against the five tribes as i told you earlier used to be considered civilized rated different from other native people. But now no longer political plea you spoke of the five tribes are once again uncivilized. And it changed about five people to take ownership of land in indian territory. In indian free people of the five tribes played into that. I want to tell you that chickasaws man and the way he talks about his former owners. And he says at that time, the indians did not have anything but small farms and of course among them, they worked like they should. The slaves enough corn to make the bread. And so this may seem maybe this isnt that bad language that he uses, they didnt work like they should. I mean, using the idea of americanness as craig will but the native americans were really looking to survive. So anything is with american and people were capable of working harder, the way they should if they were only given the model and the opportunity. And so this is strategic language use in the increase of the words and very aware that was the United States it had negotiated for the freedoms and for the Land Ownership, let the former slave owners. Some of them align themselves with White Americans and the definitions of civilization and productivity. As for five people look to move west, we see some of them also using these ideas about native americans laziness or lack of productivity or civilization. In effect for the most famous africanamerican leaders in the 19th century really of all times, Frederick Douglass gave several speeches we spoke about africanamericans might find land of peace in the west and how the states should support this endeavor financially. But to support this appeal, douglas immigrated native americans so it is speech to the American Enterprise the city of 1869, douglas estes. Negro is like a white man in the indian and the taste and tendencies in this position to accept civilization. The Union Rejects our civilization and it is not filled with the negro coming he remains with you under all circumstances and slavery and it freedom. Now here we can see the clear dichotomy be made between africanamericans and White Americans in one hand and native americans on the other hand in the first native americans are on the bedside the uncivilized side. And really joining africanamerican goals behavior with the white people are civilizations heard in another earlier speech, for the landless. And the people of the National Domain was an enterprising and intelligent and race of immigrants transforming the wilderness into communities and multiplying and adding to the wealth and Productive Industries of the nation would extend the area freedom. An increase the political powers of the north and part of the people. There dangerously the institution of slavery in a democratic safely and built upon it. So these are good things, right pretty so of course we freedom we want to limit the power of the democratic hypocrisy. But to say these things, but established doing again is putting down native people now in his words here have not utilized the west. So then of course is an educated man and hes familiar with native americans and reformers. A new this land was suffering than it not always been part of the National Domains rather had been taken from indian hands. In douglas also knew that the immigration to the region which ancient worsen circumstances for native people. In hidden areas using language of savagery and unification and allegedly like an indian as what might be like after interracial American Immigration of my sent box. No while douglas is too speeches are given run four years apart, think they represent the same belief on partner wrote on normas famous black radicals that africanamericans deserve to share of the native land pretty and so what my book argument really goes down to is that my identity and because two different worlds that of indian free people and it africanamericans in the United States allowed me to see the path of these categories that we put native and black people into so we might see them as people who had horrific events occurred in the lives. And there more resilient so we felt the triumph and of course i understand why. But we were confronted with complexities of their actions in the ways in which the words are affected others, are we willing to see blocking native people in a different light can we expect five people who suffered so much from the colonialism and is forced labor and re producers of mixed race children. And we accept the same people but also act in the capacity the Service Estate at times. The difficult question but i look forward to hearing your thoughts about them. Thank you. Thank you so much elena that was fascinating a feeling they learned so much and im excited talk to you more about the spoken to you and i want to pick up on what you just saying about Frederick Douglass and start there. You tell us a little bit about what the reaction to douglas words work from africanamerican in the United States or do they listen to the treaties of leaders like douglas and margaret left. Alaina yes so douglas, there are plenty of black leaders who talk about are either already existed and worlds like a Church Pastor or as well as like a politician after the civil war. There also people become speculators who work with White Americans to create black talons so there are lots of African Americans who want to take advantage of what they see as an opportunity to cash in on the land black people getting needed territory but also there are people who really appreciate the kinds of ideas that Frederick Douglass is talking about africanamericans deserve to kind of not just settle west but have access to these ideas of democracy and freedom and everything that the United States stands for. Rose and then how did the five tribes and people react to the migration. Alaina bullets really interesting because theres lots of intermarriage between indians and africanamericans and of course they see their experiences in a similar as former slaves so there are also free people see africanamericans as kind of messing up the good things that they have so they see this as the results of their enslavement in the fruits of their labor the term and when these more kind of africanamericans come and a lot of these people get afraid that they will no longer be seen as slaves and that will affect their political status and sovereign nation and afraid that is africanamericans and politically over them and become a bigger bully block than they are and so the interaction is that africanamericans from the u. S. Have 23 to people is really kind of enlightening because we see the people who are suffered at the hands of the United States coming together to try to defend is what they see is theirs and really all of this land. In their native territory. Rose i want to step back a bit and ask you about the actual process of how Indigenous People missing land and can you tell us how that looked at and how to affect them and how they reacted in that moment. Alaina a big part of my book is talking about how land allotment is very positive for people of african descent but also very negative native people and that is kind of the predominant narrative that i think as existed it with land allotment so that happens with the curtis act specifically applies the dawes act 25 tribes in this the late 1880s and early 1890s craig and in the early 1890s people actually begin receiving the land allotment so formally they were living on various parts of any nations. Basically you can claim as much as you could build on or improve for you to say to place and the nation in about a house there and its yours and the dawes allotment process makes this more formal so you have a land allotment that is yours and goes to the traditional way of building pretty and in this process native american nations are really trying to defend themselves and keep as much land as they can for the tribal citizens but really thought the United States from trying to absorb it into itself. Thats in essence of land allotment really sets up indian territories which become the state of oklahoma which is what happened. And they established that these reservations still exist and never stopped existing but is still is not an original planet of the five tribes and never be any american settlement and indian territory at all. Rose so the next question that i want to ask us to about the relationship about black people and native peoples relationship and living up to today. Somebody asked question q a and the question i want to ask is why did native and black people take on these problematic protections of each other and hear more about how that ties to colonialism. Sort of ties to what was asked in the chat about assimilation. I think specifically about you use the word choice, saying that Indigenous People couldve chose to assimilate into white norms rather than heart so i wonder if you could talk more about how these problematic perspectives developed in what the colonial is in place and that and talk about what extent these issues are with today. Alaina i talk about the part of the assimilation to talk about which are specifically related to anti blackness as choices because the fact there are the five tribes in part because they were slaveowners and other nations rather than america who owned slaves or who participated in slavery different ways. These five nations did make a choice and to slavery in terms of written really been kind of part of capitalism allows them to accumulate wealth and that is why there still some of the wealthiest tribes in north america rated but of course there are many ways that the people were forced to change their ways of culture and disseminating that culture and the discovery of children and that was also our history in the United States so there are many ways native people did not have control over it so much. But there are many ways especially in kind of the even in the early 18 hundreds that it was a choice to decide do you want to let them into nation or not and do you want to send your children to a boarding school at the time because it was at that time and so as we gonna in the United States gained support military power and in north america, native people have less and less of a choice when things important to differentiate that earlier printed what they do and when those decisions are strategic in that they help them become seen in a specific way, being seen as civilized allows the tribes to negotiate with the United States in a different way and the various travel agents in the secretary of interior often saw them in a different way. They were able to choose the land to a degree the panda settling on indian territory and the chickasaws were able to carry out their own removal and pay for it didnt mean to more a way that wouldve liked even though there was core versions. So moving into today, there are so many legacies of the adoption of slavery in the five tribes that reverberate predominantly in the way that we think about what is in india look like and what the importance of shared history and kinship. I think its important to think of the adoption of anti blackness as a choice because it is still a choice. Okay so, all of the five tribes have had issues with sensually throwing out the citizenship of the former slaves so that cherokee nations are only of the five tribes to accept legally the former slaves as citizens even though other tribes promise to do so after the civil war but in the 1970s 1980s, all the tribes essential claim these people have no history with us and theyre not any as they should not be here, theyre just taking the resources that are ours. As kind of segregationist narrative in a sense and it today, people like black submittals and afraid of people have full citizenship, they have literally secondclass citizenship and these are all remanence from ideas that the Indigenous People chose to take on and adopt in the 17 hundreds. Rose thank you and certainly complicated history that certainly has ramifications today as you talked about. One last question prayed that i want to open it up to audience q a and we already have quite a few questions coming in. I want to tie us to the master because we are centennial this weekend i would love to just hear you talk a little bit about how black migration to oklahoma connected to the tulsa massacre. Alaina yeah so i feel like with the university, everywhere i can hoping that this narrative is kind of changing i think it has a little. With the centennial but understanding that africanamericans came to tulsa more interested in tulsa in the oklahoma region because of this lack native history because of this existence of black people owned by native americans i thank you so really the key to understanding the foundation of the wealth that was created like wall street and also height of the existence of entrepreneurship but also by pulling so many of the black towns that exist in oklahoma were created by people who had land allotments to the dawes process so those people came together with africanamericans from the u. S. In towns like oklahoma land allotment. So the africanamericans in the native territory are already expecting a different experience because they know that there are opportunities and that there is a different kind of landscape because of tribal sovereignty because these black people do have the right and the jury is going up in 1907 and one in the United States, much of that as kind of been unfortunately rewound by white violence and terrorism and a lot of these black politicians in office have been taken out there still black people in the indian territory of councils of the sea is different. And this is why migration there is really part of the century really such a large part of population and that is why the district is the district of black people who used from wealth from their land allotment and sometimes also People Department get educations and things like that read and they really create that community that we now think of as black wall street. Rose thank you so we have a number of questions in the check. Im going to try to get it to as many as i can read a couple of questions from and about gender souls are there. One person asks did gender ireland and women have access to the land and and i wonder another person is asking if you talk about the role native women or perhaps black women played in marriages between native and black people during this time so just thinking about how genderf playd a role as these allotments were playing out. There has been a lot of great writing on the dawes allotment process as relates to native women. See if i can remember, rose has a great podcast. With freed peoples families everyone gets an allotment so women get allotment, children get an allotment. Sometimes, perhaps often these landowners are not next to each other so our decisions to be made about which land allotment of a going to live on, are we going to sell the others, uses for farmland et cetera . I know usually the mans allotment was chosen more often but there are various ways land allotments are better or worse like sometimes theres timber on it, sometimes it looks barren but theres oil underneath. As far as intermarriage, there are relatively small amounts of intermarriage especially in the choctaw nation. There are people like franklin, the father of a historian John Hope Franklin who talks about his grandmother being choctaw. There are stories of intermarriage when it comes down to it theres relatively little of that, depending on the nation. The creek nations have more but there is always a kind of fear and misogyny should that intermarriage and interracial sex will create people who were viewed as black and not as native. You see that and a lot of legislationn in all of these tribes for bidding interracial sex, forbidding interracial marriage, forbidding citizenship for interracial children. How it was difficult to have an interracial marriage or interracial sexual relationship that produced children and how those mixedrace children were treated differently depending on how the nation was thinking about citizenship and about kinship at that time. Thank you. Those two books are great, i recommend it for anybody whos interested in this topic. This is a question that ties to the discussions that everybody is having right now, not everybody but lots of people having within society right now. Thank you so much for your insightful discussion at my question is about reparation. Increasingly discussion of reparations are gaining traction particularly across academic institutions that benefited from ever built with slave labor. Are the discussions about what reparation for descendent of slaves and of the five tightly looked up at look at that all . I wish is having this conversation under twitter. So we i might block i loosely called the land allotment people received as reparations. I do that because the White Americans were orchestrating this allotment are doing it definitely to create native dispossession, as i said get a foothold and tearing apart native nations and i making it part of the United States while also a lot of these men who do think about Land Ownership will allow black people too create their own communities, to build himself up after slavery, and so this is usually in paternalistic words thinking but i feel like it is really with the intent to make a difference in the black peoples lives, even if theyre not at all likely to do that in the United States. I do think of a land allotment for something that did economically and socially change the lives of those free people at the economist linda miller has done work that shows charity free people did have better education, better wealth accumulation and retention as a result of these land allotments. It did that come with an apology and it didnt come willingly from these intimations. It is still something that is given with the desire to make a difference and does make a difference and will continue to create generational wealth if not for the black wall street, the tulsa massacre. Of course the conversation about the massacre reparations for that is ongoing and its one of the clearest examples of black wealth that is been purposely destroyed. There are plenty of records that show exactly what people lost. One of the survivors who spoke to congressng spoke about how hr life change, changed hec circumstances change after the massacre, and yet theres still no ability or desire in that conversationio like we owe you something, not just an apology but also financially. The reparation discussion i think is interesting in indian territory because i feel like it did kind of happen and reconstruction was used as an experiment in land, land possession for black people but also it is just an example of how racism in the United States works and that it builds on itself even if you get out after slavery, may be everything you had just blew up because of racist white people and now what do you do now you have to start over again even if you do that, whats going to happen when redlining comes or its going to happen when such and comes . Its almost impossible to escape. Basically i think oklahoma is a great study on reparations and there is a real need for it. That ties to another question we got in the chat about the aftermath of these allotments. After, people were givingg these allotments was able to maintain that land . You talked about their other multiple barriers that. Are the black owners today that can trace their ownership back to that treaty . Want to hear about what the aftermath of that is. My family still has the land allotment spirit theres at least one if theyre still there and its kind of funny because now i dont even know, 30 people, 40 people because every generation there are more and more owners almost. But yeah there are many families like that in oklahoma but, unfortunately, there were kind of darts put in place to protect native and free people by not having them pay taxes, and also kind of racist desperate to sell the land allotments which washi on one hand kind of beneficial and on the other hand, hopeful because some of them needed that land or money to eat in order to buy things. Eventually a few years out from the end of allotment those restrictions were taken off. Many native and black people dont realize those restrictions are taken off at the dont pay taxes in the lives e that we. Sometimes therepl are people who are schemers and cheaters who steal the land away through various means like many of these people are still illiterate, especially the olderd generation and, unfortunately, sometimes they find things and the claimant is gone for there are also people like sarah rector who made people know, the richest girl in general may be in the United States who was a freed person dissented and who is able to keep all the wealth from her land and becky from oil and natural gas through a guardian appointed by the creditor there are Success Stories like on a very high level here there are little income stores like my family, we never got money from the land allotment but still very sentimentally important i think that we still have that link in our family. And then there are many more people who dont have that land anymore for various reasons most of which were out of their control. Thank you. We have a couple of different questions about the differences between some of the tribes that help slaves. So i will say that generally and then i will follow up with more specific links folks are asking. One person asked that following up on what you talked about with the treaty of 1866, sometimes resisted such as the chickasaw resisted adoption can you talk about the differences between these tribes in terms of the relationship with freed people and specifically how to understand those differences in ways that might challenge existing scholarship on this topic . I am not sure i understand the differences between the five tribes in ways that challenge existing scholarship spirit there hasnt been that muchar wk done on the chickasaws, and more on the choctaws but still not as much as save the charities or even the creeks here generally, the chickasaws and choctaws are known verbally disliking black people. The historical sources say that your travel agents come white men who come into these nations often say they are surprised at how badly black people are treated or how badly chickasaw and choctaw indians think about black people. Not like a racial utopian. The other nations, but they do in a better way to quickly come around in the cherokee, creek and seminole nations to adoption and to allowing black people and black indians to take on leadership roles over to play parts in government, whereas as you mentioned in the chickasaw nation free people are never adopted. So theres nothing you could even point to say at one time were adopted and that we are disenfranchised. They signed a treaty and they never followed through onol thoe promises. The choctaw did at a later date but because the chickasaw and choctaw treaties were tied together, it didnt necessarily come to the end the treaty was supposed to come to. How canin i explain that . The choctaw and chickasaw have an interesting treaty because the United States says you can adopt these people, these for r free people, or you cannot adopt but if you dont it will not get the money for the land that we have just taken from you, bought from. You. So its an interesting choice given to them and ive always search for documents on why they were given the specific choice. I havent found that there may be someone else will pick i have to draw the conclusion that this prejudice among these nations was known as a thought theyre not going to adopt them, then we will get to keep that money, its really great beer there have been lawsuits between the two nations and the United States over that money and over that difference of thosedi treaties but that is the biggest difference there are other differences and how much land is given to free people in all the treaties pick the choctaw and chickasaw nation treaties are also the only treaty not to have what you call it guilt. They dont admit any guilt for aligning themselves with the confederacy. One of the other nations do do that in the treaties so another kind of, another part of the difference between the choctaws and the chickasaw is designed to educate their children in deciding its important for them toth know about the united stat, that can strategic choice they made to buy into certain american things that ended up helping them out in multiple ways. Thank you. We have a couple other questions about sort of the aftermath of once these different tribes are required to expand citizenship inde land previously freed peop. One is a question qug schools. The indian free people during the allotment with the ever forced to go to boarding schools in the same way that native children were . Talked about that briefly before. Admin this is another question about of course after this time you have gods rules a lot of ways of the government tries to make sense of these populations of people. One person is asking if there was pressure from indian free people to identify as either black or native on the senses. And if that was a the choice t people are able to make person or one that was forced upon the them. So there was a twitter account called choctaw friedman that from undergrads at columbia and there also friedman citizen and have a wealth of information and the head things i did know. They were talkingut about a boarding school the other day where freed people went there now, ive never read anything in my sources for talked about freed people forced to go to boarding schools out there are many schools were black and native people not necessarily lack native people but africanamericans and native people came into contact like the choctaw academy, and there also places like hampton and black schools where native students e students went, either voluntarily or forcibly. So those are examples of black and native people against being pushed into this subservient role because they are supposed to learn how to be a secondclass citizen. There are lots of interesting examples about how theres camaraderie and alliance at the schools but also racismth and prejudice against each other. Your second question, so winterville, what isl a, 1960 i think . You didnt get to choose your own race a census taker usually a white personsu would come to your door and decide what ratio are based on how you looked at sometimes based on diligent household and how they looked so my family actually on one census we are native and on the next census we were black is that because of the elves came r the next time . There are multiple reasons why, but it actually creates an issue for historians and for people doing genealogical work because they can be b hard to trace your family and you kind of see if you find out was my family native or how did they racial identify . Because of race is re time from the census to census. Now after the census i know its a big thing when people could check multiple boxes, enter think that was maybe only thela. Like two census ago you could be multiracial suddenly. I know that was really great for black and native people who were finally able to have their own full identity as well as a lot of otheren mixedrace people. Thanks. We have time for about one more question with a couple of questions about your Research Methodology and a couple people who are interested in researching their own familyog history. I wonder if you could talk about the challenges you faced in archives and oral tradition, thinking about methodology in the field and bringing somebodys unheard voices to the forefront. How that worked in yourr own research and any advice you have for others who are interested in exploring their own Family History that is tied to this past . My first word of advice is that minute you start thinking about it can Start Talking to people especially your elders there i i waited too long to many of my elders have passed on which is something i will always regret. I did get to interview some of them because i knew it would be important for me to have my family in my book, which they are, but also the oral histories and family narratives are important to you want to make sure they are interspersed with our private sources and things you can also kind of point to to say look, like this was a pattern ticket didnt just happen to my family unlike it happened with all these other people and it happened differently to my family so this show Something Else about history and how certain processes happened so, for example, my second cousin who was one of my big kind of prose told me about a story of my great, great greatgrandfather being told by his former owner that he could ride on a horse and as long as he could ride on the horse live on that land. He did it appeared he g piece of land until land allotment broke that up. I was like okay, that sounds really cool but it also sent something that would be like the tv shelter that i found it to to other times in archives, people saying similar things. Okay, to two other times butl it means its not kind of an exaggeration or fabrication, right . Needs it happened aew few times but maybe it was rare but it still shows this relationship between black and native people innocently after the civil war. So gather as much information as you can, use things like the dawes rolls as well as the dawes estimate that is on places like ancestry. Com. Use genealogy resources, the black native run by angela was amazing with her as a College Student like can you help me . I think this is my relative but they were amazing. So the community is generally there and theyre willing and ready to help you. , need to to be humble k we all want to find these really interesting parts of our Family History, but dont come in waiting to find a certain thing because that can lead to heartbreak t sometimes. Fake you. I think thats good advice. Much. You so this was a wonderful conversation and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History tv documents americas stories, and on sundays booktv brings youhe latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan2 come from these Television Companies and more including cox. Its extremely rare. But friends dont have to be. When youre connected, youre not