Republicans, they are the problem, they dont want to worm with us. Im over listening to jeffries. We need somebody that can get together with the people were going to leave this program at this point but you can watch it in its entirety on a website cspan. Org. Take you live to hearing with former cia, pentagon and state Department Officials testify on whos the threat to middle is to build and use interest. You are watching live coverage on cspan2. Through their many significant attacks on International Shipping in the red sea and gulf of aden since october 2023. We will discuss the threat posed by the houthis and the Biden Administrations response to the dramatic uptick in irans maligned activity across the region. I now ask consent unanimously the gem of North Carolina dr. Murthy be allowed to sit on the dais and participate call it all other members in todays hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask consent that the statement for the record my and related report be entered into the record. Without objection, so ordered. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Ann ladies and gentlemen, i am joe wilson, chairman of the middle East North Africa and central asia subcommittee of the Foreign Affairs committee and a grateful member of congress from south carolina. Since the fall of with houthi terrorist bilin pilot ovee internationally recognized government of yemen, the Hamas Houthis along with the iranian other puppets have made territorial gains and have expanded their capacity to carry out a mass murder directed by the regime in tehran. The illini machine terrorist puppets in yemen, the houthis have launched over 30 30 attn commercial and naval vessels in the red sea since november. Their capacity to field such attacks is a commentary on the Iranian Regimes direct support towards network of terrorist puppets and the growth in the region. The houthis and other puppeteers groups funded trained and survived by the regime in tehran a property with sophisticated weapons, including precision guided missiles and longrange drones. The houthis have conducted hundreds of attacks on our valued hours of partners in the region and a directly targeted u. S. Targets disrupting world shipping, fuel, fueling inflation for household products worldwide. And interrupting the delivery of grain around the world the countries that are in need. They receive material and Political Support from the worlds foremost state sponsor of terrorism and of coordinated with the least two Foreign Terrorist Organizations. The Islamic Revolution guard court and hezbollah. But were foolishly delisted as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the Biden Administration in federally 2021. Only to only to be redesignated as as a specially designated global of terror. Sadly, this is a very inadequate and does nothing to hold the regime in tehran accountable for the direct support of the houthi terrorist puppets. The houthis have prorated identical copies of iranian Ballistic Missiles with attack cruise missiles and antiship cruise missiles and suicide drones. Weve seen some of these projectiles launched at october 7 toward our ally in the region israel and formally they had attacked saudi arabia and united arab emirates. More recently at least 30 plus instances towards International Commercial shipping in the red sea spiking insurance premiums and costs for goods and vessels moving across a abadi of watey between 1015 of global trade passes daily. The houthis ability to disrupt shipping gives the regime and to run a significant boost and legitimacy and is a key to the goal of death to america, death to israel. Proxies of the regime in tehran have benefited from bidens hands of policy and have conveniently attached themselves to the claims of the palestinians. This is about guilty to Iranian Regime and its agenda. The Biden Administration and diplomatic pursuit of a Disastrous Nuclear Deal has completely ignored the mass proliferation to develop missiles and terrorism by the regime, arming its proxies and dictator allies. Every new regimes Missile Program is the cornerstone of its nuclear program. President trump was correct in canceling the deal which did nothing to address the in a communal ballistic Missile Program or proliferation of terrorism as he successively suy built deterrents to protect israel and america with indeed the ever have a court. This administration sadly has completely failed to respond to deter future attacks. Striking ammunition dapl in yemen after providing advance warning is not a sufficient deterrence. There is a sincere bipartisan outrage over the conditions of extreme poverty in yemen. Houthi terrorists have engaged massive a themselves and the loyalist by by the people yen continue suffering the consequences of the iran backed regime civil war. The people of yemen deserve better than constant civil war due to Iranian Regime backed terrorism. We also understand the interconnection of the dictators with rule of gun invading democracies with rule of law. We see this sadly as we respect the courageous people of ukraine, the courageous people of israel who are resisting the axis of evil, war criminal putin, the regime in tehran and its puppets, and the Chinese Communist party. This Administration Must reverse course and resort credible deterrence to avoid further attacks and the civilization. And i believe if they did it would be bipartisan. I want to again thank you for the witnesses being here today and your expertise and a look forward to hearing now from the Ranking Member gerry connolly, also know as past president of the nato parliamentary a silly. Mr. President. Thank you so much, mr. Chairman. Since november 19, the houthis and arena backed Militia Organization in yemen have attacked over 40 commercial ships of multiple u. S. Naval vessels in the red sea with no signs of stopping. Theyve attack commercial vessels indiscriminately, wreaking havoc on International Shipping of the Global Economy. Just in the last three months houthi threats to ships, cruie thinkers crossing the red sea have forced Major Shipping Companies to spend millions of dollars, more fuel, and add an additional ten days of traveling around the horn of africa that so far as cost 200 million. The costly delay will ultimately be felt most specific about many in the developing world will be seen rising prices due to inflation caused by putins wars in ukraine. The covid19 pandemic and other disruptions in the Global Supply chain. Its important that the subcommittee articulate that theres absolute clarity on a bipartisan basis when it comes to houthi targeting of American Service members or Court American interest. Arbitrary houthi attacks on commercial shipping have already disrupted a key pillar of the International Order and has an impact on all nations the freedom of navigation. At its core freedom of navigation and titles all countries, vessels to transit around the world in peace, free from it. Protection and promotion of this longstanding International Principal warrants and international response. Not to mention how houthi attacks Impact Global economy. The Biden Administration has drafted a response to defend u. S. Interests and deter further aggression while preventing regional escalation, which i believe we must be very mindful of. Its a strategy that some of my friends on the other side of the aisle including you, mr. Chairman, have criticized. A a successful strategy is one that utilizes all the tools in our toolbox diplomatic, economic, and if needed and as a last resort, military action. Some of my colleagues would like to see an administration that acts unilaterally to impose great calls on iran and its proxies. Committing american blood and treasure to another endless war in the middle east, all while neglecting the devastating dominican situation in yemen. Lets be clear. Calls for direct strikes on iran are dangerous and under ue ministrations efforts to prevent and expand a conflict. A restart to civil war in yemen will not achieve american objectives. In the Biden Administration rightly sought to prevent widescale famine for human civilians while degrading houthi military capabilities and defending u. S. Servicemen and facilities in the region. Such a strategy is critical for the millions of yemenis who remain dependent on outside humanitarian aid. For even the most basic necessities. According to the united nations, 18. 2 Million People in yemen, more than half of its population, depend on such humanitarian assistance. 4. 5 million yemenis are considered internally displaced, and 17. 6 million are food insecure. Years of bombing, ground combat, destruction and impoverishment from the brutal war that had preceded this set of events forced millions of yemenis civilians to suffer persistent food scarcity, resulting in near famine conditions and widespread malnutrition especially among children. Recurring disease, medical goods shortages, and extreme economic hardship. The rupture of the tenuous ceasefire brokered in yemen would mean another hot conflict in a region that can ill afford it here since before the houthi started attacking commercial shipping in november, the Biden Administration clearly stated it is not interested in a broader conflict in the region. The administration has made clear that the United States will not hesitate, however, to protect our personnel both to action at the u. N. And direct military strikes. And it is followed through on that commitment. The United States support Security Council resolution condemning the houthi attacks and urging against regional escalation in the days leading up to the military action, making the case to the International Community on the need to hold the houthis accountable for their action. Administration also impose additional powerful sanctions on the houthis by designating the group as a specially designated global terrorist group. This powerful measure sanctions the facilities, facilitation and support networks coordinated by iran, which helped keep the houthi militants armed and equipped. The Biden Administration also withstood over 55 separate iran sanction rollouts targeting more than 550 individuals and entities, and just this week doj announced the indictments of irgc leadership in iran, and others, partners sanction of evasion, fraud, and moneylaundering offenses with the trafficking and selling of iranian oil sanctions. As well as the seizure of one of 500,000 barrels of sanction oil. By all accounts the administrations pressure on iran is working. Just last week the riau hit an alltime low and the inflation rate is not at 46. 7 real. A record high in iran since you impose meaningful sanctions in 1996. Militarily the United States has moved in concert with partners and allies to expand interdiction operations to prevent illegal iranian weapons from reaching the houthis in yemen and is established current 22 nation secure operation to protect maritime vessels from houthi attacks and the red sea. Its not just an issue that impacts the United States but the entire International Community. With the leadership of our country and the Biden Administration, we have put together a Broad Coalition partners to defend shared interests in the region to secure the freedom of navigation and open sea lanes of communication. I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel, and will very much, i appreciate a lively conversation. Thank you, and i yield back. Thank you very much, missed call it. As an indication of how important this here is where very grateful to welcome the chairman of the Foreign Affairs committee and we now recognize the chairman Michael Mccaul from texas for his opening statement. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member connolly. Since hamas brutal october 7 attack on israel, irans proxies throughout the middle east have launched assault after assault on the United States and our partners. The houthis in yemen have launched dozens of attacks against International Shipping in the red sea and gulf of aden. These ongoing iran backed attacks threaten a wide array of international interests. They are driving up shipping costs, increasing insurance rates, and disrupting Global Supply chains. The houthis latest escalation is a a symptom of the International Communities failure to address the houthi threat. For years the houthis have benefited from support provided by iran, and hezbollah, which transform this group of ragtag guerrillas into a fighting force with the capacity to destabilize the entire region and disrupt global trade. But the world has consistently downplayed this threat and irans role in enabling them. The Biden Administrations policies have emboldened the houthis at the expense of our regional partners. And by projecting weakness on the world stage, this administration has invited aggression. While iran was smuggling weapons to the houthis, this administration was busy lifting terror designations and cutting off of support to saudi arabia and amid houthi crossborder fire. Appeasement has no place in u. S. Foreign policy, but that is exactly what has occurred in yemen and beyond. Even now this administration continues to treat the houthis with kid gloves. They are promoting a a u. N. Pe deal that would legitimize the houthis violet autocratic rule over millions of innocent yemenis, and secure irans foothold in yemen. And despite we designating the houthis as a specially designated global terrorist organization, President Biden has refused to use the strongest tool at his disposal, and that is the Foreign Terrorist Organization designation that they had prior to this administration. I think its time to recognize them for who they are and we designate them as a Foreign Terrorist Organization. There can be no denying that the houthis are terrorists and present a real threat. As attached by the attacks by the houthis continue, action is clearly needed to deter them and defend u. S. National interest. I look forward to this hearing and hear how we can work with our allies and partners to protect our servicemembers and the Global Economy as well as steps to promote stability in the region. For nobody wants war. Nobody wants an escalation. Nobody wants war with iran. But history teaches us that if we do not act in strength, that rather weakness, we will invite aggression, conflict, and war. Its as old as Neville Chamberlain and hitler. Churchill talked about appeasement. Reagan talked about peace through strength. If we do not project strength, we will get conflict and war. 160 attacks on our soldiers in iraq and syria, and then tower 22 in jordan with little response. It only begets more violence. Deterrence is necessary to promote peace in the region and try to want to thank you for holding this very important hearing. And with that i yield back. Thank you very much, chairman Michael Mccaul. We are pleased to have distinguished witnesses with us today. Ms. Simone ledeen, former Deputy Assistant secretary at the fence for the middle east. We are grateful to a also dr. Kenneth pollack, former cia analyst and in the sea national Security Council director for the persian gulf. Finally, we have dr. Jon alterman, Senior Vice President , director of the middle east program at the center for strategic and international studies. We want to thank you all for being here today. Your full status will be made part of the record and ill ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for member questions. I now recognize secretary ledeen for opening statement. Chairman mccaul, chairman wilson, Ranking Member connolly, the establishment of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Simone Ledeen and i predecease her as Deputy Assistant secretary of defense for the middle east. The middle east is at a pivotal moment. The region is currently embroiled in a highstakes multidimensional conflict fueled by irans calculable aggression against the United States, israel, and others. The evidence is clear, the Iranian Regime is slowing s discord which threatens International Peace and stability from the shadows regime is advancing its agenda by planning and funding attacks by its proxies. My focus today will be on one of these iranian backed proxies, the houthis in yemen, and of the to accelerating iranian aggression. The Biden Administrations timid approach towards iran has place u. S. Service members and crucial global trade routes at great risk. The administrations policy of appeasement towards the rainy regime has proven to be a dangerous fantasy setting the post Abraham Accords middle east on fire. Urgent action is required to change course and reestablish deterrence. The iranian backed houthis have escalated their attack on commercial shipping in u. S. Naval warships in the red sea since november 2023. The houthis have used drones, missiles and small boats to target both commercial and naval vessels across the southern red sea, the strait, the gulf of aden and the arabian sea. Companies had to reroute ships around africa increasing shipping costs and travel times. Normally an estimated 12 of the International Trade amounting to over 1 trillion in goods navigate through the red sea and the suez canal annually. Since the houthi attacks began, freight rates of east asia to europe have searched over 200 . 200 . Since october 2023 the houthis have used an alarming array of increasingly sophisticated weapons, including cruise missiles and land attack cruise missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned surface vessels, essentially remotecontrolled bomb boats, and antiship Ballistic Missiles, or a sbm and making the houthi the first in the world to deploy Ballistic Missiles against ships come signaling a sophisticated leap in the military capabilities which now aligned with those of only a very few nations. At the same time iran and its allies have been exploiting maritime Navigation System to conduct operations with relative impunity in the red sea, often disguising their activities under the facts of china, iran or russia. The dark fleet as the sheets have been called enjoins a peculiar immunity from houthi attack, navigating with relative impunity, a fact which points to a level of coordination which should concern us all. The houthis post a multifaceted threat to yemen, the broader middle east and u. S. Servicemembers. The Houthi Movement began as a shiite insurgency against with support become a key military player in the middle east, devastating yemen, creating a vast humanitarian crisis and complicated u. S. And allied strategic interest in a broader middle east proxy conflict. Additionally, the iranian backed houthi chaos in yemen has given alqaeda and the Arabian Peninsula a favorable environment for training and attack planning. This is the same terrorist organization responsible for the u. S. As cole bombing and the Charlie Hebdo attack. The Houthi Movement center to iran strategy to increase its influence and disrupt the middle east status coquette says glenn gulf region tension the missile into attacks on saudi arabia and endangering global oil supplies. Additionally, by targeting red sea was a significant threat to israels supply chain, underscoring their role in irans broader ambitions to reshape regional geopolitical dynamics. The houthis also threaten u. S. Servicemembers stationed in the region. The groups access to drones, missiles and naval mines enables them to target u. S. Forces which they are currently doing in attacks on u. S. Merchant marine vessels. In the face of this threat the United States must reevaluate its regional strategy. The contrast between the optimism fostered by the Abraham Accords in 2020 and the current reality could not be more stark. The disillusionment with the Biden Administrations Regional Policy is palpable among our partners and allies. The Biden Administrations early diplomat efforts in the region including pressuring saudi arabia to cease hostilities against the houthis delisting the houthis as a Foreign Terrorist Organization in february 2021, and attempting to revive the joint comprehensive plan of action with iran has only embolden them. According to the foundation for defense of democracy, since the start of the Biden Administration iran has successfully more than 100 billion. This demand increase in oil revenue explained how iran is funding its tears proxies externally and domestic oppression internally. To effectively counter iran and its proxies the United States must take several steps. First, we must rigorously enforced sanctions targeting irans vital economic sectors such as oil exports and baking which could specifically cut its available funds for proxy terrorism. Second, the u. S. Must establish deterrence and protect freedom of navigation by decisive targeting the houthis and their irgc sponsors. Moving gun the current ineffective defense only strategy. By disrupting the Operational Networks and reducing houthi territorial control in yemen, along with deploying additional u. S. Military assets for rapid regional response, the u. S. Will be any much stronger position to restore Global Commerce routes through the red sea. Third, the u. S. Must enhance cooperation with regional allies to secure necessary access and overflight rights. This entails deepening Strategic Partnerships and expanding intelligence sharing mechanism to effectively counter iranian influence. Fourth, the u. S. Should reinvigorate the saudi led coalitions efforts to neutralize the houthi threat in yemen by providing comprehensive military support including advanced weaponry, intelligence assistance, Logistical Support and training to saudi forces. This should also include working with a northern tribe. Fifth, the u. S. Must provide unwavering support israel both to safeguard its a good but also demonstrate our reliability as a partner and ally. Finally, the u. S. Needs to support the protest movement within iran. We could be issuing official statements recognizing the legitimacy of the protesters grievances, and offer tangible support such as facilitating secure Communication Channels to keep within time, we need to continue apology but what you think it is i agree with everything you said some not disagreeing with you. Your multipoints are very good. Forward to working with Ranking Member connolly to see with what we can agree. We now need to proceed to director pollock. And again we need to stick to the five minutes so that we can get to the floor. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Representative, in the five minutes if given me i would like to make five simple points to the subcommittee. First of what disturbed by that ive been impressed with the administrations response to the houthi attacks so far. It is that larger, more powerful and more sustained than i had expected. It probably has rocked the houthis and their ranges and is undoubtedly a major element in the diminution of houthi attacks weve seen in recent days. However, i am skeptical that it will achieve ultimate objectives. Second, it is certainly the case that the texan red sea shipping are sending iranian calls in a variety of different ways but we need to recognize that they are serving houthi goals brilliantl brilliantly, independent of whatever iran is getting from them. This military campaign by the houthis distracts from problems in governance and Economic Affairs in you many areas under oppressive houthi control. It allows them to ingratiate themselves of the wider arab and muslim world where they were strongly dislike, even hated before october seventh. It allows them to play as well where the ultimate ambitions lie. Third, what we are attempting with the houthis is ultimately a strategy of cooperation. And coercion requires threatening something that the other side values more than whatever it is you want them to do or to stop doing. I am hopeful but i am skeptical that nearly destroyed their at the shipping capability will constitute such a threat to them. I think that requires us to consider instead that which the houthis clergy with value more than what theyre getting from their at the shipping attacks, and that is the control yemeni territory. That is their first priority. Moreover, the only times that we see the houthis willing to negotiate and to make compromises let alone concessions have been when their control of territory has been threatened as it was in 2018 and 2022. That in turn suggests the only way to convince the houthis to cease and desist from these attacks will be to threaten them on the ground. Now, i want to be very, very clear about this. I am not suggesting american boots on the ground in yemen. That is unnecessary. That would be entirely counterproductive. However, i do believe the ultimate requires the United States to arm, equip, and train the antihouthi coalition that is operating under the umbrella of the government of yemen. It could mean employing american airpower as well as we get in support of iraqi forces against isis in 20142018. Finally, with this latest civil war broke out in yemen, we should recognize yemen has been in various states of war for decades if not centuries. But when this latest round broke out, we staunchly believed that we had no interest in this conflict, other than to shut down the fighting as soon as possible to limit civilian casualties. That was understandable but it turns out it was also mistaken. The houthis have proven themselves to be belligerent, aggressive, and convinced that violence is the best way to get what they want. They also share irans goals of driving the United States out of the region of destroying israel, and overturning the governments of american allies. They are forces of repression inside yemen and forces of aggression beyond it. Yemen, the United States, the middle east, and the entire world would be better off without them in power. Thank you very much. Thank thank you very mucr pollack that we never agonize dr. Alterman for an opening statement. [inaudible] thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member connolly its over to appear before the committee once again. The houthis are a paradox, a ragtag military operating on a shoestring budget that doesnt even represent a state, should not be a difficult adversary for those powerful military in the world. Similarly it should be easy for the United States to bill and brought military coalition to protect freedom of navigation through seas they care about 20 of global Container Freight and is a key conduit of both energy and manufactured goods to europe. And yet here we are with houthi forces continued threaten i could threatening Global Shipping and the United States working prettily with uk partners to strike at houthi targets why our regional allies and in nato partners keep their distance. Some called for robust u. S. Military strikes an event to punish every incumbent for all of its destabilizing regional actions. Some call for crushing the houthis completely. I understand the attraction of decisively asserting u. S. Military power, yet, doing so without clear forethought would actually advance iranian goals rather than u. S. Ones, and wouldnt do much to stabilize yemen. As outlined in my written remarks, the trend faces at least five threats in yemen. The first is that the United States actually boosts the houthis when the demonstrate resilience after comprehensive u. S. Effort to destroy their capabilities. This plays into a narrative that their mere survival represents a victory. We dont want the houthis to present themselves as among the fiercest and most resilient fighters in the middle east. The second is that the United States slides down a a slippey slope of increase military engagement in yemen divorced from the skill of u. S. Interests there. I worry this moment would be part of a long cycle of u. S. Engagement in and disengagement from yemen, which is often the link to counterterrorism and which is help nurture greater violence in yemen. The third danger is that the United States precipitates an even greater humanitarian disaster in yemen or is perceived to disappear i i cae circumstance of which the United States is accused of instigating the spread of famine and disease in yemen, with iran, russia, china, and some Regional Media amplifying that message. The fourth is that we fall into an arena trap sucked into a grinding, openended conflict in the region that continues to put u. S. Troops at risk without increasing regional security. This will ultimate undermined both the regions and the american publics willingness to sustain a military presence. The theater is at the battle in yemen deepens the raft between the United States and partner militaries. Its both remarkable and worry that keynote, kenya allies and key regional allies want nothing to do with any military operation in yemen. No, we can consider it sustainable when the u. S. Is one of only a handful of countries willing to fight to defend public goods. And when close partner seek to benefit from u. S. Actions with that contributing to them, that is of course the world for many of our adversaries in middle east and around the world would like to see. And i could imagine just military action in yemen hasten its realization. The iranians and the houthis dont fight fair. They feel the relative weakness in the virtue of their cause justifies breaking the rules of war. Their skill to use asymmetrical tactics and they position themselves to portray their mere survival as victory. We dont like it that way. Where overwhelming the start of with things that each side believes its need. There is a role for our military strength that we shouldnt forget that it is just a tool. Our ambition is a military victory. Its using military instruments to provoke our adversaries to make a political decision to change. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank each of you for your testimony antishock stormy bipartisanship, congressman, and i agree on something, that we all limited to five minutes, even congresswoman manning. So five minutes, mr. Baird, i know he always follows through. With that in mind, i can do what you think all of you for being here. Please begin the five minutes to so i, i had a long time, sadly, visiting four years ago and exhibit of downed drones that have been taken down by saudi arabia by the united arab emirates, and these drones, some had come we are not talk but once you see at the Grocery Store at 39. 95. These have a wingspan of 30 feet and they were to deliver munitions for indiscriminate killing of civilians. And indeed, it was also quite clear, in english, virtually every one of them made in iran. So there was no question where they came from. So to me weve got to address this for the benefit of freedom of navigation and our country. Additionally im very grateful, too, that we need to stand together for freedom to have peace through strength, and we need to address and know that freedom is not free. I particularly sympathize sadly with the three Georgia Army Reservist who just recently killed. And ive had sons serve and iraq, egypt and afghanistan are all four of my sons have served in the war on global terrorism and was not over. The terror 70 plans for us which is really clear of death to america, death to israel. With all of that in mind and did you want to congratulate secretary ledeen, you do have clear forethought. So you should all get together and with the different points that you have. We needre, and in particular, providing a funding, oil sales is just, just totally out of what should be done to actually promote peace through strength in the world. With that in mind, secretary ledeen, why did the Biden Administration choose not to apply the stronger of two designations given on the Foreign Terrorist Organization designation which criminalizes providing Material Support and resources, which is a desperately needed to control the iran puppets . Chairman wilson, thanks for the opportunity to respond. I think, first and foremost, its clear that the Biden Administration from the beginning of this conflict has been the bare minimum. I think they realized theres a political outcry because Global Shipping has been put at risk. So to continue to do nothing was not acceptable. So instead the decision clearly has been made to do in terms of putting new sanctions the bare minimum. So redesignating the houthis as a specially designated group under Treasury Department designation rather than a stronger Foreign Terrorist Organization designation. So in order to say we have done something, but i would compare that sort of you to the responses that we are seeing militarily, the defense in nature only. In order to say theyre doing something but the reality is our partners and allies, and, unfortunately, the irgc and their houthi proxies, see very clearly that were not taking real action. And so the attacks are continuing and they will continue until a more forceful response is initiated. Director pollack, indeed, the lack of response to me is very troubling because we have had attacks by the puppets of iran that affect 40 different countries. This is not just america, not just the united kingdom. And the effect of delivering grain to countries, causing potential starvation around the world. This is a defensive action on our part. What more can we do to degrade their reading capabilities in the red sea . The iranian capabilities i think we need to recognize that iran is trying to wage war against the United States and its allies all across the region. The red sea is one theater and the houthis are one actor in that. And to think that when you tobacconist is that we need to push back on the iranians everywhere to the best that we can push back on the arenas and what is by helping our allies everywhere. And, unfortunately, for the last of these 15 years and lets recognize it has been under e two administrations including this one out our allies have felt time and again that the United States has not been there to support them, that theyve been forced to take on the iranians on their own and as a result weve seen our allies make compromises with the iranians. Most recently and i think most flagrantly the agreement between the saudi and the arenas brokered by the chinese. Again, too much has been made up but nonetheless it is a clear sign that these are all countries allies of ours is simply cannot believe that the United States is supporting them and, therefore, they have to make compromises which they did not want to make. Director, thank you. Thank each of you and now i proceed to congressman jerry,. Im going to defer to mr. Sherman. Thank you. If there ever was a Foreign Terrorist Organization, it is the houthis. Weve not designated them. We have not designated them because that could possibly interfere with feeding the people they will. This would come as a shock to general Douglas Macarthur the day after pearl harbor he been informed that is number one objective was to feed the civilians of japan. Those who cheer the houthis, who shout their praises, claimed to be progressives. They should take responsibility for the death that the houthis have caused, not just in yemen but elsewhere. You see, 20 of ukraines grain exports go through the red sea, some amounts from other countries. When that grain price goes up, people in east africa, ethiopia, in tigre, and poor parts of south asia dont eat as much. They cant afford it and they die. Not wasting disease that you can capture on a video, but rather they are eating to make meals instead of three, and that increases their susceptibility to death. I would like without objection to put in the record an article from the advocate, perhaps leading lgbtq publication in america, which is headlined houthi Court Sentences 13 men to public execution for gay sex. Now, thats Just One Court in one province at one time. How many members of the lgbtq are brutally killed by the houthis year in and year out . So there is blood on the hands of the houthi. Theres blood on the hands of those who prevent us from taking effective action against them and shout their praises. And i see that blood is actually on the hands of people visible to me right now. [inaudible] okay. I would ask for some additional time. I think dr. Pollack, you had t exactly right. We cannot limit ourselves to just trying to prevent the houthi, reduce the amount by which the houthi intercept shipping. We have to provide weapons to the legitimate government of yemen and its allies. Dr. Pollack, iran benefits from freedom of navigation around the world. Is it morally right that not a single iranian ship has been stopped by the u. S. Navy, even for a day, when i ran interferes with the commerce of the entire world . Them around a bit i am not qualified to comment on. Strategically what i will say is that the United States has chosen not to do so repeatedly for wide variety of reasons. What i think it is important. I think the question youre asking, congressman, is a very important one and it should be on the table. As my dear friend dr. Alterman has pointed out the iranians dont fight by the rules. They dont play by the rules and we have handcuffed ourselves time and again in trying to respond effectively by doing so when they choose not to. We are confronted all across the region by a very determined widely and unscrupulous adversary. We owe it to put all the options on the table to consider. So if a ship taking luxury goods to iran was delayed for a day or two, would tehran get the message . They might very well. We have seen in the past the arenas are incredibly cautious and respectful of American Military power. When they believe that there is no threat that we will employ it, they do whatever they can. When the belief that there is a chance we will employ it, they suddenly become much more cautious and respectful. I would finally point out that they have a durable ceasefire in gaza. We need to see hamas leave gaza, just as you saw in 1982 when the terrorist left lebanon, and a durable ceasefire cannot exist if hamas is there because theyve already declared, they want to repeat october 7 again and again until the blood of israelis flows again and again. That is a goal of hamas, and that is the goal of those who support hamas. [shouting] i would ask [shouting] i i would like to my the audience that disruption of the Committee Proceedings is against the law. Holding up signs are making verbal [shouting] egbert outburst during the proceedings is disruptive. A good outburst particularly. Any disruptions will result in a suspension of proceedings until they Capitol Police can restore order. And indeed there should be understood, there people who want peace through strength. Without i now recognize the congressman from georgia, mr. Mccormick. I believe theres more move, mr. Chair but i will start for now. I appreciate the witnesses willingness to be at the point some very important things to us both strategically and morally. I think it will affect the future of the United States and global peace, with the old we want every warrior watch the anybody whos ever put their life on the line to go overseas for their nation does not want war. I dont want my sons to go serve overseas and i. I want them to live. Im wanting to live in peace. With that, i think its very important to recognize what weve done and what the consequences are. In february 2020 of 2020 tn administration removed the houthis, which were on the Foreign Terrorist Organization designation and their specially does a global terms Group Designation when the Trump Administration have put it in place. At the time secretary blinken said humanitarian concerns that the side as a recent same think american aid could not reach the yemen people. Yet these destinations remain in place. I want to make a few points. I went on the first freshman codel to bangladesh, the largest refugee camp in the world, 1 Million People have been displaced through violence, living off now eight dollars per person per month. Theres people all over come with a Record Number of strategies over the world right now. Starting, displays, being raped, being killed constantly. And yet when we are worried about idealism and realism when it comes to who we aid and who we about. This is the problem. We talk about worrying about designations so they can help of people that the money is not even getting too, about the study to get into when you have an evil regime is keeping the food from getting to the people who need it most. And instead we have created an environment where the iranians [shouting] 30,000 that. [shouting] when we talk about realism and were trying to assist f. U. Were trying to claim as our friends [shouting] ceasefire now. Taxpayers dont want this. I think it goes up saying i will reclaim my time. Okay, very good, thank you. Ms. Ledeen, deeply provide Administration Reason for removing the houthis from the designation addressing ten at ten crisis in human . No, i do not. Do you think the aid that has been forthcoming goes to the right people. Us know, i do not. Exact my point. Think we need to be more concerned in supporting the resistance in iran compass people who stand up against the injustices against women and children come against education, against rights [shouting] you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Ceasefire now. [inaudible] and there we go with the absolute misunderstanding of realism versus idealism. Iran is an evil regime. Its a theocracy that oppresses its people. It has kept women from the natural godgiven rights, and yet were more concerned with not getting food to the people that when we give a to these corrupt agencies, then we are with a regime that is action supporting all of our enemies all around the world. And actually trying to kill americans to the hundreds and thousands of efforts with armed aggression towards our troops overseas. We have lost navy seals. We lost Army National guard. We lost American Life and we put them in jeopardy every single day for the last not just several months but several years because of our policy. Dr. Pollack, how would you explain the Biden Administrations seemingly timid defensive response to view the aggression . Is it fair to speculate that its due in part to the administration decided to revive the Iran Nuclear Deal . Congressman, first, would encourage you to have the administration, and defend its own policies but since youve sp to speculate i can serve to do so. I do suspect that part of what is going on. I think they are hoping that at some point they can get back to it. And i think it, just probably speaking their approach is been to some negotiations are most likely when you start by making concessions to the other side. I understand the logic behind that, but a strictly i dont think that it is ever proven to be accurate. People come to the table when they have reason to do so. If you remove that reason for coming to the table they either dont come for the show of not believing that cant actually make concessions. Well put, sir. Its been my experience emmet over 20 years of marine corps and Navy Experience around the world, whether in africa with the middle east authorities or anywhere else when in combat zones, that evil people only understand one thing, and thats strength. Thats what create peace, not weakness, not concessions. Whether the president carter or president obama or President Biden, what what it seems e give concessions, bad things are the result. Therefore i would encourage my allies on both sides of the aisle, i think we made really good point on both sides of the aisle to recognize and to deal with it accordingly. And with that, ideal. Thank you very much, doctor mccormick. We now proceed to congressman gerry connolly. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Alterman, welcome back. See again. Ms. Ledeen and others have characterized the my Administration Response to houthi threat as timid. Do you share that view . I would describe as cautious rather than timid but i would argue the Trump Administration was rather timid about the over after all, speeded ms. Ledeen work for . Im not for sure. The pot calling the kettle black just need to be called out all. Go ahead. The german from virginia to Work Together he was a him and him as a very young man so we go back a little while. The Trump Administration to designate the houthis is a fortress organization there until the last days, the last two days of the Trump Administration. There are excruciatingly difficult problems involved with characterized the houthis as a fortress organization, in particular wellmeaning people attempting speeded well, i know. Ive got to interrupt you. I only have. Got it. So part of this timid characterization apparently seems to be we are not willing to be, to go in more forcefuly militarily to address the houthi threat in the red sea and elsewhere. Remind us, was there not a pretty forceful military intervention by the saudi in yemen against the houthis during some paid a ton . There has been an almost 90 or effort by the saudi. The saudis are now trying to negotiate their way out of speeded dr. Alterman, please answer the question i didnt ask that part. Im getting there. Im getting there. Sorry, sir. How did that work out for the saudi . Nine years of genetic involvement that apparently others want the United States to emulate. In fact, is only to use that humans are deeply involved providing precisely the weapons that the chairman referred to. That didnt start at the beginning but speeded dr. Pollack made the point a good what i thought that the houthis with you care about is territory. Did houthis expand or contract territory during this nineyear interval of saudi aggression. With my recollection is mostly a stalemate. There was an initial time where they lost some territory and i think speeded so if one of the goals of the southeast was to restrict the houthis and to regain territory, it apparently didnt work, is that correct . Right, didnt work. So it isnt timidity for the saudi stuff to look at other options, one of which is engagement, is that there . Yes. Regional conflict, no obvious end point. Again, youre going far afield. Your brilliance precedes you. Youre answering questions not yet asked. Okay. That was my next one. What are the race arings of the United States risks of the United States, you know, with the best of intentions deciding to expand its military response to the houthi attacks . What are the risks of that . What could go wrong . Well, one risk is the houthis keep doing it and we look ineffectual. One risk that we end up in an openended conflict defending soft targets all over the world that is hard to defend. The problem is we have to be successful 100 of the time, and if were successful 99 of the time, our adversaries point to the 1 , and our people point to the 1 . And we look like we are failing instead of succeeding. Is there a reason to believe that the engagement that the administration and the saudis are involved in with the houthis has promise of any kind of success . I think its promise of some success. I agree very much with ken that you have to come into negotiations strong. But i also think that you have to be willing to let bad people get something not because you like them, but because theyre a reality. And thats something for the houthis that something for the houthis is, ultimately, participation in the governance of yemen. I think participation, not control, participation in government. Right. I thank you. And i thank the chairman. I yield back. Thank you, congressman connolly, for abiding by the 5minute rule. We now proceed to congressman jim baird of indiana. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank the our witnesses for being here today. You know, on monday the terrorist organization, the houthis weve been talking a lot about, ill call them terrorists because thats what they really are, but they launched an attack a on an iranbound grain cargo ship. And as a you know, iran is a mayor with houthi ally, and this attack mix it clear that they are just makes it clear that they are just widely targeting ships without a direct motive. And they claim that their strikes have been a response to the situation in gaza. However, theyve been targeting the ships that have absolutely no links to israel. So are the houthis using the war on israel as an excuse to organize these inconsistent attacks . And can you explain the actual impact that these attacks have is had on agricultural goods to the [inaudible] so, secretary levine, would you want to start that discussion . Yes, thank you. I think its important to look at the houthi Decision Making in the framework of being effectively and actually a proxy of iran. So they are part of this regional escalation that iran has underway right now, and theyre one you know, a the analogy has been a made frequently that the Iranian Regimes like the head of the octopus, and there are many different tentacles, the houthis being one. So as we consider the Decision Making of the houthis, i think its important to note iran plays a very large role in that Decision Making especially as they provide a lot of the weapons that the houthis are using. So i would characterize it that a way. In terms of the disruption of shipping, specifically of agricultural products, that is clearly one of their primary intents. They want to disrupt Global Shipping, they a want to increase the prices. They want to, they want to hurt us. And in a way, we could think about it as a effectively an iranian sanction against us because theyre raising the price of goods. And the longer this goes on, the higher these prices will, will become. Nk you. Dr. Pollack a, do you have any thoughts on that . Absolutely. I think that a youre absolutely correct, congressman, in that initially the houthis did begin these attacks in hope of showing solidarity9 with the palestinians because, as i mentioned, they were deeply, deeply unpopular in both the arab and muslim world beforehand, and this was a perfect opportunity for them to ingratiate themselves with both communities. But youre exactly right that the houthis are getting a tremendous amount from these attacks. This is exactly what they wanted. And what weve seen is the administrations as the administers point out, they are attacking ships that have no connection to israel whatsoever. It is very useful for them, it is terrific for them to demonstrate their importance, their power in the world by shutting down or threatening to shut down one with of the worlds most important shipping routes. Dr. Alterman . The other thing is the houthis are really bad at governance. Theyre very unpopular. But being at war means that they bring people together, theres solidarity that a comes from being on a war footing. Yemen a lot of people like using weapons in yemen, and the weapons are on display. There is a way in which being at a war is much better for the houthis because it means that people are criticizing them arent criticizing them for being so bad at running yemen. Thank you. Im about to run are out of time, so i thank ive got more questions, but i appreciate your answer as, and im going to yield back. Thank you. Thank you, congressman jim baird. We now proceed to congressman Brad Schnider of illinois. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i want to thank you for calling this meeting. I want to thank the witnesses for being here. Good to see you guys, as always. Maybe ill start with dr. Pollack. When did the u. S. Designate hezbollah and hamas as terrorist organizations . Do you remember . If. I cannot answer that, i am sorry, congressman. I can, i looked it up. It was of course 8th, 1997. October 8th. Was the u. S. Right to designate hamas and hezbollah a terrorist organization . Absolutely. Anyone disagree with that . Was the u. S. Right to designate the houthis as a terrorist organization . Dr. Pollack . Yes, i would say they would, they certainly meet the definition. Yes. I think where we find ourselves, i was just telling my wife i cant take her call right now [laughter] where we find ourselves, we face an immediate crisis with global implications. The houthis are threatening global trade. They are citing excuses, but i think you guys noted that theyre achieving their own goals, covering up their inability to govern, and we need to address that crisis with great urgency. But theres also a longer term crisis that has more local implications, regional implications, which is the crisis facing yemen, the governance of yemen creating one of the largest humanitarian crises in the world. And the victims of this are the people of yemen. And, you know, the houthis have their own agenda, but it is certainly not to lift up the people of yemen. I mentioned hezbollah, hamas, the houthis. Is there a Common Thread to those three organizations in dr . Well, lets see, they all start with h in english thats not what i had in mind, and you know that. They are all a backed by iran. Right. They are all antiamerican groups. They are all a antiisrael groups. They all a employ violence against civilians to achieve their ends. And im going to quote from from your prepared comments, but iran is our enemy not because we want them to be, but because the government of iran wants us to be. Can the same be true of the houthis . Absolutely. I think as you know well their slogan is god is great, death to america, death to israel, curse the jews, victory to islam. Right. And, in fact, as they cheer that and chant that [inaudible] theyre saluting. And their salute is not [inaudible] but its the nazi salute. [inaudible conversations] the houthis are antiamerican, antiisrael and antisemitic. And they are a threat, as i mentioned, to the region but also a threat to people of yemen. Dr. Alterman, one of the things we have to do is not just interdict iran from supporting the houthis, but find a way to end that support. Any suggestions on what we can do in congress to try to address that and change, change that support . I think partly its important to recall that the houthis arent really strategic for the iranian the houthis are a little bit of a freebie. The houthis only the iranians maybe about 100 million a year which is about twice what it costs to run a think tank in washington. But very impactful, as youve said. And i think we have to persuade the iranians that the houthis arent worth it, and i worry that instead were persuading the iranians the houthis are totally worth it because were getting wrapped around the ax a el axel in talking about d axle in talking about a whole regional program. And not say saying they are a regional threat, as you say, but i think we have to rightsize the nature of the houthi threat. I think degrading their military capabilities is the right thing. But getting into a war of wills other the houthis, i worry, is going to leave them victorious and looking strong and us looking weak a. And im running out of time. I forget which of you said it, but you used the term coercion. Dr. Pollack, coercion is con convincing whether its the houthis or the iranians that the cost of the actions theyre taking are far greater than are far less, no, the benefits of the actions theyre taking are far less than the costs, and we have to work to ratchet up the consequences and the costs for both the houthis and the iranians to change their course. Because we cant allow the houthis to disrupt global trade. And that is in interest not just for the United States, but for all of our allies. And we cant allow whats happened today to end hope for the people of yemen who are suffering and deserve the right to govern themselves. I am over my time. With that, i yield back. Thank you very much, congressman brad schneider. We now proceed to congressman Michael Lawler of new york. Thank you, mr. Chairman. When President Biden took office, he made a lot of illthoughtout and, frankly, foolish Foreign Policy decisions. But at the top of the list was delisting the houthis. While the houthis were a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization under the Trump Administration for for clear reason, President Biden almost immediately took them off the list. He did this apparently in an attempt to encourage the houthis to reduce hostilities, enter into talks and improve the conditions for the yemen and yemeni people. Shockingly, just the opposite happened. The houthis instead renewed efforts to expand territorial control inside of yemen. We have also been unable to negotiate a meaningful resolution with the houthis. And, of course, the yemeni people are still living under oppression. Dr. Pollack, can you go into some detail about the conditions and abuses the yemeni People Living you should houthi control have been living in for the past few years . Briefly, dr. Alterman began this, the houthis are terrible governments. They do not understand how to run a country. They were never particularly interested in doing so, and i think they were surprised when they had the opportunity to do so. The economy in yemen has stalled badly. As we all know, there are enormous problems in terms of food distribution. Oil production, well, the houthis have very little control over it, but in their areas theres very little going on. And we also need to recognize that the International Community has been very rightly concerned about the humanitarian situation in yemen for many years. The houthis have not. Very famously in 2018 a joint Yemen Government and emirati force was threatening to take take the last yemen sorry, houthicontrolled seaport. The world was terrified that there would be slaughter. We descended upon the em rat city emiratis, and the Yemeni Government begged them to stop. They agreed to do so. The houthis were forced to sign an agreement because they were about to lose the seaport. And the idea was they would leave it to a naval enable humanitarian splice. They, of course, immediately reneged. So that that were clear here, delisting the houthis did nothing to help the yemeni people and worsened regional security. In light of this administrations failed policy9 and the houthis continued aggression against the u. S. , mse group should be listed as an nto . As soon as possible, yes. Do the houthis meet all the qualifications to be listed as an fto . Absolutely, yes. And we passed a bill through this Committee Last to require the relisting of the houthis as an fto. So from that bill and from this conversation, from my absolutely clear picture of what is happening in the gulf region, it is my hope that the administration does the right thing and and relists them immediately as an fto. One of of the bills that i passed through the house Foreign Affairs committee was the ship act which i led with my friend and colleague, jared moskowitz. This bill would establish new sanctions on entities that processed illicit iranian petroleum. Ports and refineries that facilitate irans oil trade are effectively financing the Iranian Regime and its terrorist proxies. It is no secret that iran sends financial and material assistance to hamas, hezbollah and the houthis, just to maim a few. Can you all con firm that iran provides funding to terrorist groups in the region . Yes, they do. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Do you all believe that the president and his administration, state department and Defense Department know just like all of you that iran funds these terrorist groups . If. Theres no doubt, yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. How have irans proxy activities changed since the Biden Administration came into with office and relaxed enforcement of sanctions . Has it gotten better . Far from it. Theyve become much more violent and aggressive, and theyve caused many deaths and destruction across the region. Yes. Mr. Lawler, i think after the aa saws nation of Qassem Soleimani, the head of the quds force, the islamic republican guard, many of these proxy groups have had more autonomy. And i think the iranians have enjoyed the fact that a they have had less responsibility and less control and that in many ways they have reaped more benefits from the misbehavior of these groups, but they have less control over these groups than they had under Qassem Soleimani. So is your argument that soleimani should have been left alone . My argument is that assassinating Qassem Soleimani has not ended the threat from iranian proxy groups, and in many ways it has a morphed did you oppose his aa saws nation . Nobody do i oppose it now . Im not saying it didnt have the desired effect well, it doesnt have the desired effect because this administration has weakened its sanctions. When you allow oil revenues to increase 80 billion, nearly 60 since this Administration Took Office and these funds are being used to fund hamas, to fund hezbollah, to fund the houthis then, yeah, youre right, theres not a good consequence of that. But that has nothing to do with aa saws nateing soleimani. That has everything to do with this administrations policy position to be weak on iran. Thats a policy choice that this administration has made. And that is a function of relaxing sanctions on the sale of iranian are petroleum. Thats why i into introduced the ship act mr. Chairman, you asked us to abide by five minutes. And thank you very much, congressperson lawler. So we need to proceed. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i was trying to be respectful to the congressman from tennessee to get him back over here and sit quietly so he could ask his questions, and now i refer to the congressperson from tennessee, tim burchett, the former mayor of knoxville. Knox county, but its a little bigger than knoxville city, but still thank you. Thank you. Mr. Mrs. Ledeen . Yes. Im sorry. Nobody gets my name right either, maam, so were good. What have the recent strikes in yemen achieved . There has been no demonstrable change since the strikes in yemen. In your opinion, what needed to be targeted so that these strikes could be more effective and that we dont keep hitting the same targets . Well, i think we can, as a benchmark, use the insurance prices and shipping companies decision to reroute through, around the horn of africa as a sort of guide for this. But the recommendations that ive made in my to oral and written testimony my oral and written testimony are focused on empowering our partners and ally. But, yes, we should also be taking strikes against houthi targets and irgc targets that are training and equipping the houthis as well. Finish and that is we know where those are, and we should be taking more aggressive action, not simply defensive action. It seems to me also that we keep hitting the same targets. I mean, theres its, were not doing anything effective. Were showing them our capabilities, but to me that just doesnt its just a waste of resources. Dr. Pollack, did i get that name right . All right. Good deal. Yes. Talk about a name that a gets mispronounced frequently, well done. Yes, sir. Should we be concerned about any attempts to legitimize the houthis as a government . I think that we should. We need to recognize a this is not the government that the people of yemen would choose if they ever had the opportunity to do so. Ing. Right. I agree with dr. Alterman that they represent or they may represent a portion of the yemeni population, but they dont come close to representing the majority of the people of yemen. Do you feel like the saudis would be willing to accept the houthis de facto government in order to end their involvement in yemen . I think that what weve seen from the saudis especially since 2019 is i think that they probably would simply because they dont feel like they have any better alternative. But i think that they very much would regard it as their least bad with option. Okay. Id like to ask this question, but maybe the rest of yall could answer it as a well. Can can you speak to the human rights abuses committed by the Houthi Rebels . I can start. I can talk about their abuse of child soldiers. That is an absolute disgrace did you say child tortures . Child soldiers. Okay, sorry. Yes. Thats a heavily documented phenomenon that if youre not familiar, i sincerely recommend looking into it. Its been a problem for quite a while, and in the wake of these recent attacks, theres actually been a surge of people sending their children for, youngs to join the houthis you know, to join the houthis. And its, its truly a humanitarian catastrophe when you consider the coming generation in yemen and what they may, what they may be like, what we might be dealing with, you know, in the next generation. Theyre already building that. Obviously, theres a complete breakdown in medical care. Theres pervasive starvation. My colleagues here can talk about that, i think, in further detail. Dr. Alterman there are issue of women issues of womens rights, lgbtq rights as the gentleman from california talked about, basic rule of law. This is a government of thugs. It resembles in many ways a place run by organized crime. And the misery of the people of yemen is pervasive and continues every day. All right. Women are just basically possessions, and gay folks are thrown off a of buildings, that type of scenario . Is that what youre telling me . This is both a repressive government and a government that believes its asserting traditional a values. Which is anathema to our understanding of individual freedoms and human rights. Dr. Pollack . Ill just add to that, congressman, its worth recognizing that the yazidis are an Old Community of yemen. Before 1982 it was yazidi that ruled yemen. But the houthis are a fundamentalist element within the community, and they are, again, oppressive, totalitarian in their behavior, fundamental in their outlook, and i dont think that we have a very good handle on how many sadies support the houthi rule. I think there is considerable anecdotal information that suggests that there are men if the city of them plenty of them who look at the houthis and say these are not the types of people we would want telling us how to live our lives. Mr. Chairman, thank you for your indulgence. Hear, hear. Thank you very much, congressman more chet, all the way from knox county, tennessee. With this in mind, id like to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have additional questions for the witnesses and will ask you to respond to these in writing. All a members may have five days to submit statements, questions and extraneous materials for the record if subject to limitations. And id also like to thank the Committee Staff for their dedication and, again, this is bipartisan. And i frequently work on issues together remarkably enough. And so we can Work Together with very capable staff of the Foreign Affairs committee and of the subcommittee. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] if you are ever miss any of cspans coverage, you can find it anytime online at cspan. Org. 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