[inaudible] committee will come back to order. We were delayed because of votes on the floor but now well hear from Inspector General roth. Youre now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairman chaffetz. Thank you for inviting me to testify regarding issues relating to tsa. Inspector everjet eight of tsas primes and operations fosters positive change and makes government better. The effectiveness of oversight depends on the ability to issue detailed and balanced record that describe our findings and including recommendations to resolve. The Inspector General act requires west inform the dhs secretary, congress, and the public about any problems we identify through our work. Public scrutiny of what we find is key to accomplishing our mission. We have found that tsa has a history of taking an aggressive approach to restricting information from being made public, especially with respect to a category of information known as sensitive security information known as ssi. This problem is welldocumented. I first encountered the issue in 2015 when tsa insisted on applying the ssi designation to information in an audit report concerning the i. T. Operations at jfk airport in new york. Similar information was previously published. I appeales the tissue the tsa administrator but it was not resolved to my satisfaction. Sure enough it was repeated in the latest report on tsa i. T. Systems published last year. In that report tsa again demand redaction of information that had previously been freely publish evidence without objection in which my i. T. Security effortthth experts tell me pose nod threat to aviation concerns. I believe the problem is deeply rooted and systemic. For instance, as far back as 2005, gao issued a report finding that tsa did not have adequate policies and procedures to determine what constitutes ssi or who is authorized to make the designation. Gao found the lack of controls this committee reached a similar conclusion in a bipartisan staff report it issued in 2014. Two years after that, in 2016, the chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security subcommittee on transportation security, possibilitied to tsas management and use of the ssi designation, noting the improper invocation of ssi, and i quote, raised the specter we have heard again and again about tsa conveniently using security classification dots avoid having public discussions about certain thing that maybe by unpleasant for them to discuss in public. End quote. In addition to these inconsistent ssi designations we have encountered instances in which tsa redacted information so widely known that redaction border on absurd. Tsa redacted claiming ssi a statement in one of our draft reports related to expedited screening progression. Heres the quote. Passengers are not required to remove shoes, belts, laptops, liquidded or goals. End quote. We showed tsa this is things on their web site and every traveler who goes through the precheck lean understands and the ultimately tsa agreed it was shoo not have been redacted. This was appropriately resolved, takes time away from the offered did process and causes unnecessary delay. Likewise we have other instance inside which tsa has attempted to restrict information we found on their own web site. These examples highlight what i believe the incoherent and inconsistent nature of the program and raise serious concerns in my mind as to whether tsa can be trusted to make reasonable, appropriate, and consistent ssi designations. Under dhs policy any authorizedded or ssi who believes a designation is improper may challenge the marking. Unfortunately, as i discovered, this appeals process is structured to ratify tsas ssi designations and prevent the review of such designations by independent external entities. The appeals process is foreordained and fails to properly balance the publics right to information about nonspecific threats to Aviation Security and its vulnerability to awe buys. Were in the field work station of a comprehensive review of tsas management of the ssi program and the use of the ssi designation. We expect to have a final report by july 2017 and will provide a copy of this report prior to its publication to this committee. Additionally, well continue review and publish public reports on tsas programs and operations to the extend we continue to observe the abuse of ssi designation well continue to highlight it. Is in concludes my testimony eye. Happy to answer any we. Thank you. Mr. Lerner. Bring that microphone up very. Got it. Chairman chaffetz. Thank you for the opportunity to test about the u. S. Of special counsel and the investigates of whistle blear retall indication. I appreciate the committees commitment to oversight, including strengthening ooh scs ability to carry out our good information mission. I want to thank the committee for your leadership and passing the act, hr69, during the opening week of this congress. Practicing law in the private sector i ended and the importance that help me to represent my clients. The privileges important in context with other parties and having said that there is no basis for federal agencies for the attorneyclient privilege. This is not litigation. The internal administrative investigation no court has ever held the attorneyclient privilege does make sense to all work for this same government. The have made clear there is with government wrongdoing and federal agencies may not use privileges from what congress has been charged unfortunately the tia say is the allied air of the aggressive use of attorneyclient privilege. In 2012 Congress Gave protection to the employees through the whistleblower act then they have received 350 retaliation cases. Two pairs of companion cases illustrate the challenge is to get needed information from the tsa. With that geographical assignment and then to assert claims of attorneyclient privilege. And then they rejected the request. And then shell the information from complaints in when tsa does not disclose the reasons they took action against the whistleblower we investigate if it is retaliation. In addition the attorneyclient privilege review causes significant delays. Omb has spent months waiting for documents while psa as revealing be documents for privilege. Really have 40 attorneys to invest in the hundreds of cases. And to be much better cent sundays are waiting for relief. Despite uh challenges created to be committed and the thinking for the opportunity to testify i look forward to answering your questions. Mr. Paul your recognize. Mr. Chairman you have a slide . Can you give it example have made times the gse has provided your office . Message is an example that was submitted testimony with the type of document production we are getting is an eye problem it would go directly to those issues retry to investigate in the case was their disclosure and what was the reasons they had to take against the uh was a blow were . When did this 100 percent redacted we cannot get the information. Does it appear to you what is inconsistent that it might raise suspicion . In is that clear . Ink what is motivating them but it does raise concerns some 02 have overly broad redaction star you aware tsa oh where a assert attorneyclient privilege . Why were they redacted . I do not the of the exact specifics of the case and we would have to go back into log. But she stated in her testimony even the recipient was redacted can you explain that . Again i dunno that context. But there are others. Why would value be redacted the dates and the author and the recipient . Can you give an explanation . To metadata saw the case by case basis. This peers to be selective bad inconsistent. Again, why would he redact the the date could. I dont know. I will have to answer on a case by case basis. With the attorneyclient privilege there are none present how could the gse possibly invoke privilege could. A do not have the insight into this case. I bought talking about this document but other instances where in one case the attorney could not even identify the client because of attorneyclient privilege i will go back to the question that you last of the attorney is not in the meeting baby is asking for their advice. But if the attorney cannot identify the client . In mccabe not sure where the reference comes from. We will get into that later in. I think this boils down to we dont believe attorneyclient privilege applies one for any document request this is the interagency intra government investigation it is not appropriate for any agent to claim privilege that is the same with the gao or ig during the ag investigation that is not appropriate to claim that. That is prob part of my problem one that selective use redaction and consisted use of that clave the attorneyclient privilege with all due respect that appears to say tsa is trying to cover up problems. Mr. Roth quick. We have been very fortunate the ages is taken up policies of the have that there it does not a problem apply is more restrictive and that is their decision whether to do so but we have taken that position. I i appreciate your answer mr. Chairman and i yield back. Fakes to all the witnesses who are here today we do a dusty and however portend transparency is but also whistleblower protection to the overall process. I m pleased to hear from both sides of the aisle to speak out of the important work done but despite bobby have heard with of fundy that use of desperately carry out with the office of special counsel 2017 request additional funding for the agency with a Record Number of 74 is that correct . Have they ceded increase of caseload over the past several years and you currently have a backlog . Thanks for the question. The cases at doubled since i have been special counsel. Over 6,000 complaints that they are beyond the ability nearly do appreciate the house bill to be fully funded the senate bill kept us level had redo needed increase to do the kinds of things that congress has asked with the appropriate staff and we dont have that right now. The you have requested full time employees. Believe a bill this has been received by bipartisan support to have that appropriations bill the omb did not receive the increase in staffing is that correct correct. Day capt. That this same level as last year they did not follow the house lead. President trump was instrumental to delay action on the spending bill the that those current spending levels will remain in place until april. Has this affected your ability to enforce whistleblower protection . Ic our lawyers are doing it amazing job with the resources that they have. We did request additional funds but as the edmonton did the Opening Statement those that are assigned to do the investigation of the hundreds of retaliation cases one to create delays to get people the relief that they needed the staff is frustrated because they would like to spend appropriate time of the case. There would be very helpful. You received more than 350 whistleblower retaliation cases from employees quick. Correct. Last year . It is about the same level. And as the resource constraint show how quickly you can resolve that extreme cases that you currently have . One of first guarded in special counsel to have maybe 30 cases now it is 60 or 70 cases per examiner. That means it takes much longer and should be fully investigated if there is the time in their life with a charitable work place situation we may not appeal ways to get to their cases as quickly as we ought to. When i first target was an average of 30 days. Recognize myself. You said csa has zero tolerance for whistleblowers . Do you believe if they have been retaliated against what Organization Figures out whether or not there has been retaliation . All psa employees so they can go through any of the allied. Lets take osce. Whistle blowers says i have then retaliated and then gsa says no then the osce is a primary organization to resolve the dispute. You agree with that. What percentage of the informations share of the osce review to figure out the right conclusion . They should have done everything that they need. Define all of these informations. Care appreciate redo are headed but it it would be a that redacted for ternate attorneyclient privilege to follow department of guidance. There is the of lot and Department Guidelines. Use said they you believe that the osc should have all of the information. What percentage is that . No, no, no. Let me be clear so what percentage is all quick. Mathematically it is with a depressant but it is the appropriate information. Appropriate . What should it not be quite. The Attorney Client privilege you dont want to hear numbers and will not give those to you. Feel the number i want to hear is 100 percent of the information. You said all of it they should have all of it. The field again that something short of 100 percent quite. 1 2 to stress tsa is not in interest on negative agency that is a dependent so as a part of the hearing i can assure you we will followup with this set the department told level to make guidance speed nikes edits Department Guidelines so what is this attorneyclient privilege prohibits to give that when will i have that on my desk greg. Devil already raised at matter i will work. I won a date certain. It is not up to be. You are the acting did minister. Hugh rely on guided its from the department . To the best of my knowledge we are working. Wait. You just made this up . It is not in writing . It is Standard Practice. Know it is not. Is this Standard Practice ms. Lerner . No with is not. To have fled Government Agency investigate another. What does congress have the right to seek . What percentage would you give us quite. With the attorneyclient privilege i am not in a position. Yes you are berger u. S. The acting it minister. I am asking you right now to provide the information to this committee. Clammy be offer something. As a part of getting ready for a this hearing it did come to my attention when i asked negative staff to say have we ever had any concerns expressed information that we have redacted . We found, to instances she said she had for interstate meant. As of yesterday we will always accompanied with the privilege to law. To get more information. When we you provide osc that correct. If i made that will not be sufficient to achieve is suggesting that there is of privilege emirs saying that there is none. Your point is well taken and i concur ive interested to see all the different times the csa takes this privilege which we do not buy into. When will i have that on my desk . Every document we have issued. Not in the future. I am not familiar. I want to know what i will have all of that berger you have a week from friday. Or i will issue a subpoena them i did not need the Committee Vote or a judge i can do that myself i telling you one National Television you will be given a subpoena you should provide that voluntarily. We do not buy the notion there is any such privilege. The information the osc is asking for when will we have that . I have to take that for the are record is the department position. Tell me to a department of public insecurities holding you back . Give me names i want to know who to call. Office of general counsel give me a specific name. That is a big office. Tell me the attorneys better telling you not to ride this information to congress or to a the osc. I want names. I will followup with you. Right now. I need specific needs how many staffers are with tsa in this audience right now . Please raise your hand. Who is paid by the tsa . Wait. Hold them up. Seven people wanted these seven people get on the of phone and go get this information before the hearing is done. We will go to the head of the earth we have by osc and ms. Lerner has testified be believed in her Ad Organization and not just some of the or the embarrassing part i want the names of all land security who is giving that information to osc. I have asked my staff to give you a name before the hearing is done. What information do believe should be withheld from congress quite. And out believe it should be but a certain provision of attorneyclient privilege of mansart tied by a developmental policy there are ripple effects the when it comes to ssi information they have full privilege but with the attorneyclient privilege element. Booby have established that is bogus and you are making that up. You are very talented we appreciate the work that you do on behalf of the United States of america but we have employees said being retaliated and stop hiding during attorneys into beatings we dont need the problem of this magnitude anywhere else that is why we would get to the bottom of it. Dr. Gowadia, as those frontline employees that protect our airports are not covered by Many Civil Service protections what kind of right todays digest to have full whistleblower protection who was on the appellate aboard . Other t is a employees. To that personal action in. That entire system protects them it is all about leadership. It is welleducated to make decisions that do not adversely affect so what prevents and employee of of personnel action quick. They have to put the information of before the appellate aboard. Do you agree that due process of that personnel system . Absolutely. Inspector do those arbitrary practices prevent you from speaking out quick. As dave Chilling Effect whiff of personnel practice with us safeties situation whether it is misconduct of the part of the agency theres always that fear something will happen to that person. Fe are reluctant to raise these decisions could deviation be put risk . Absolutely we get about 20 thous said complaints per year and employees are raising those issues that they can be retaliated against if word of their cooperation gets out. The t. S. A. Arbitrary and inconsistent actions not only affect morale but create a serious risk to Aviation Security. Every member of congress is intimately aware of securities and the responsibilities of tsa in the spot those of us that must fly back and forth under regular basis but with the agencys employees are excluded from due process of title five. The results are a disaster engine never be repeated at any federal agency. Also congress should act ballad to insurer full Civil Service protection under title five are available to all gse employees gsa employees including officers. When we talk about rolling back Civil Service protection understand we have made a committed here on this committee to protect whistleblowers. When we drawback it has a chilling defect. Because i will not come forward. Last week the Committee Conducted in the interview from tsa at the said it was covered by self direction that has misbehavior and did not lead to a healthy agency. Mr. Roth you testified before the committee in november 2015 about security failures to of covered. As serving as deputy of ministry gary use said the indepth round at tsa from results that you characterized as disappointing and troubling. Do you take the constant environment of this behavior as described contributed . Certainly was we found to provide this as well there was of push to move the people through the line to ignore those security aspects. There was enormous pressure on the rankandfile and not worry is much about security. So the answer to your question is yes to disregard Aviation Security. So you found that to be a major problem . Thats correct stay mike so they were probably missing things they should have caught . Mfa have issues across the entire spectrum have a deal with their own employees they had airport workers or the perimeter or the challenges that they face our eagerness to screed 2 million passengers per day. And then to Pay Attention to the staff of 60,000 people it is enormous job. And dealing with the public aho and i guess many people feel they go through too many changes. Tomb million passengers per day. Kidded 2015 you testified the most critical task facing tsa having a culture of change to identify and address the risk with retribution. What did you observe and had why did you believe the most critical task was to identify the risk without fear of retribution . Bequeathed have seed in the public sphere and the public media of instances with three guard to the curvature a nature and we have seen that. We got a sense there was a culture of intimidation. It was a breath of fresh air of how he treated the rankandfile. But how far down does that go . And if that will continue with the new leadership. Director reassignment. It has been discontinued the only time we ask for reassignment if it is in the interest of security and as the very, very last option that weve put a dent its control so the decision cannot be made unilaterally. And if the berbers of the executive service has to be moved the me will look for as many options as possible if it is in the interest of security. So there is a substantial reduction of what you just said can we go from by 300 negative hour nap five can you give media correct. I apologize did not have that number but i can tell you that it has not happened since my tenure spirit you agree that is very cold thing to do. Absolutely to move people for no reason i do not think it is inappropriate practice and we do not do that at tsa any more. The former deputy administrator had retribution regard to Personnel Practices with the security information is that and environment they can identify risk . The the practices discussed are well before my time and with the previous administrator was in place i want the tsa to build that was in the past the Leadership Today stands behind them and we will not tolerate any retaliation ever retaliation the cash u. S. Cow far it goes down id make the rounds from the airport level down to the offices of the chemicals to work very hard some people see the support that they get. We also working on leadership training so that notion begins on the frontline to help tackle church change. And a stay and what you are trying to do but how do we put policies in place . You could be gone, i dont know when but to make sure that they stay in place. Absolutely. Notes the department as looked at practices and policies to make sure we are more in concert with the department to put did jackson imbalances tax and balances. O p you can see you cannot legislate or mandate for change that by a piece of paper it changes by chief gene of culture. People have to feel appreciated and supported. As long as i am at tsa. We will work on the title five notion to see what it could take but all that privileges afforded when it comes to a pay increase we can work on that by virtue of policy by making it working very hard they could have whatever they want. The tsa is withholding information considered attorneyclient privilege but why does it take action to investigate if there is retaliation . We believe tsa refusal to provide informations hinders the oic environment that employees are free to or to defy risk without fear of retribution. Scheerer. You need robust enforcement of the of law. But it hinders our ability to make findings would we dont get full cooperation. To have it one way or the other but not both had u. S. The department of homelands security about the socalled attorneyclient privilege with all information requested . T. S. What did you come up with is the departments privilege. When the chairmen was asking you when you talk to can you tell me who that was . Mustapha got the information. Joseph is the actaeon general counsel stickiness the one that we would talk to to figure out the roadblock . Yes, sir. So you have known for weeks this would be in front of the committee but you came here in this seems your and prepared to answer the questions. You do with be asking about this. Is a bipartisan effort. So i am just wondering. Perhaps ive this communicated. I knew this was your concern i was not aware ms. Lerner staff had concerns of coming to resolution of any particular case. Then you need to talk. You need to talk. [laughter] we dont have to bring you here just to talk. Email . We have already decided we will start that. So lets talk about that relationship with the osc. What do believe is your vehicle obligation to provide documents greg. We do have a legal obligation. I find that carious. Who is francine . Chief counsel at tsa prepared to believe she has been there. So this was february february 21st of this year when she visited with the scud but gsa has a legal obligation to turn over documents sought out the she say there is no legal obligation but this committee is receiving a letter yesterday that says tsa recognizes the legal obligation and does so regulate. Heidi you rectify that correct. Was not in of meeting that she alleged to say that. It is my vendors standing she was using that phrase in context of attorneyclient privilege not did generalities. Use say there is a legal obligation . Why would how would you describe your relationship with the osc . Personally as his only just begun. With of partnership we you could address our differences. How do describe the overall tsa relationship . Lawyer to rural lawyer they do have a very good working relationship. I dont think they have had any issue. Who is steve . Bigger presently acting in the different capacity. He was assisted chief counsel . And he was detailed to head the tsa office of professional responsibility . So i will put up the mail that he wrote to. I will read it profusion joyous i would appreciate it. I am dead be conciliatory with the oecd have been a nightmare to deal with with implemented vice if they want to bore they got one. Goahead and put that down. Does that sound like a response from tsa to the osc . Did you fire him . No, sir. Are you going to . I would fire that guy. If you clean house of the legal people did york agency you will have a lot of problems that this not be added to be will go to for war what would your chief Legal Counsel saying there is no legal obligation . She is not providing by the of loss. No doubt of the matter that is unacceptable. What will you do about it . America do believe he has already then disciplined. The council also reports to the department have to work that out with them. You talk about culture. We get coulter reports india just routinely is at the bottom. They take a 320 agencies who was at the bottom . Homelands security. Tsa. Secret service. There is a common denominator. In order to enrich the culture you have to have confidence when something goes wrong there is a fair and honest hearing. If you have a whistleblower who believes there retaliated we need a fair arbiter to cut into look at the fax. You are not providing those facts to the osc. Every employee knows this. They know the dat the deck is stacked against them without a fair hearing and if you want to change that culture people have to be confident if youre at the top of the food chain or a new of police that you will get a fair hearing. That doesnt need be presuppose the conclusion but the osc doesnt get the information then you cannot blow can anybody in the eye to tell them their case has better heard. What was it you disagree with . I would not disagree that affair and robust investigation should be conducted just as a whistleblower has rights to those allegations are made against another arab league and we must follow through. I added three. When we talk about changing the culture there are a lot of thebes but by cooperating of providing documents that could really help. I the there is some of misinformation that they be going on and hopefully we can clear that up. Whistleblower protections are key but i also think the full protection of title five would be very helpful that there is more of of the league of fairness with tyree year promotion decisions are perceived as fair. I also need a list of what i need you to provide i yield back. Mr. Chairman, and these questions are for dr. Gowadia, in may 12, 2016 with the administrator testified before the committee he was questioned in detail how he would respond to whistleblower allegations of retaliation with a directory assignments. I will read you several statements that he be paid. I think it is important we look at the individual review to determine whether or not it was improper use. Slide number two i very interested in the office of special counsel investigation into the existing cases with those individuals that appeared before you. Pet did on those findings and will take immediate action. And then again he said depending on what they find it may point to the appropriate discipline. My first question, how can tsa e Tell Congress you will be responsive to the investigation that refuse to give osc documents necessary to complete tuned destination . In listening to ms. Lerner dire appreciate they need more information which is why we offered to give her. But to date we have received information to my knowledge knowledge, that said the information redacted has been interfering with the ability to render a verdict. My second question is do you agree with did minister peter is important for osc to benefit that allegation . Absolutely. Is there a conflict of interest for the office of chief counsel to withhold documents with multiple whistleblowers win the day were involved in the misconduct . When it comes to attorneyclient privilege that comes through the department guidance. We are not in that position to unilaterally change that. A statement of observation command campaigning for the past year to be frustrated with congress and bureaucracy that they just are not accountable and this seems like this committee has been trying to determine to get some transparency. I am looking for word to getting some results to find out what is going on over there and how we can fix the problem. And want to get to the bottom line. Obviously youre not giving all of the information. Ourselves like people have not been giving you the information because ms. Lerner needs the information it sounds like there is a block. I think you need to get to the people in your agency. And figure out who was not giving you the information. Please let me leave you with no doubt. Wait. Before you say anything. You need to explain that and tell the chairman. Retry to give you the outcome. Definitely stops at my desk for those decisions made. When it comes to attorneyclient privilege issue yes. 1 2 to follow department guidance. But it sells like you did not know of ms. Lerner concerns. That is what i am getting to. It sells like you did not notice extent. That is true. I am trying to get to whoever is not giving you the information preset you did not know the extent of the problem but the new said the box tops with cuba what i am saying is before it gets to you if you dont know there is a problem does that make sense greg. But i can ask questions. You need to live in trying to tell you. I am trying to help you. That somebody is not giving you the information that you need. Period. Or this would not be an issue. If i was did your shoes i did not the information i needed in somebody told me they did not give me the information . There is of problem. Do you follow me . Im trying to get to the bottom. I just want to get this stuff resolved we have a lot of issues we deal with hopefully we can get this resolved when you get back to the office. I will recognize myself first. Does our committee have the full list of concerns that you need more information greg. We can get that to your spirit just to confirm we have the full list. Dr. Gowadia, i just want to clarify redo expect tsa to turn over all the information that has been withheld to oic and it to be dead by march 10th. Week from friday. The information should be given to the committee on oversight government. If you choose to withhold documents you are making the election to withhold from osc but also from congress. I will be Crystal Clear. You dont withhold these reveal Inspector General you were being very selective in your application of attorneyclient privilege which we dont recognize. If you dont provide those i will issue a subpoena then you will be on the clock and if you dont you will be in contempt and we will pursue that. I am trying to be Crystal Clear the process. You set the box tops with you meet will called the attorneys view are the acting director. Also you have confirmed you will provide logs of the information that has been withheld. I am recognizing that you have that right be will provide that to the osc as well as this committee by march 10th. Correct part. I cannot promise you. Know nono. 45,000 people are in the field. I do not want to leave the with the fact i am stonewalling you put those of have already started on production. Is a lot. You have tens of thousands of the employees at your disposal. I am telling you that is what the committee will ask you to redo. We have been asking for this for a long time. You said you have a lot did should not be that hard to provide it. I a said me did not have won but moving forward rica provide one night youre asking me to go back to figure out what percentage of that was rejected and then develop a lot. We will do our best effort if we dont make the of full log available then we will start producing not a ruling basis that we do with the osc and we will do that with you. You put whatever you need on top of that empire ties. Prioritize. I also need the names of any other individual in Homeland Security who has advised us tsa to claim privilege also by march 10. You have agreed to provide the discipline of march 10th. Of that has already taken place. Use said he was spirit nike is in the process. You will give us the update . Fair enough. Did you will provide us in vice from withholding information . Department told guidance. I will get you something on that. By march 10th. Now zero the gentleman from carolina. We have a few things going on so dr. Gowadia obviously you have counsel here and i guess i am diane little confused but my staff pest told me that again reid tried to assert attorneyclient privilege. But mia misinformed . I apologize they think they could do something without department guidance. Are still have to follow that. Are you saying that dhs concurs . Has been a lot of mistakes that have been made. What i will not do is have a premeeting that went well and have you after you go back and apparently talk to somebody and come in here today and suggest it is not okay. Mr. Meadows, i apologize if i left the impressions i can give away who can . The General Council of the department. I asked you what statute and where you said there wasnt a statute. So i ask you for what rules or regs and you said it was department guidance. I understand you dont have that written. If you dont have written guidance who gave it to you . Who told you have guidance . The acting General Council. The very person i have concerns with. General council for who . For the department. Department of homeland or tsa . Department of Homeland Security. So the General Council between yesterday and today. Not between yesterday and today. Again, going back to yesterday when did you talk into the General Council about this guidance . Well before the meeting yesterday. Maybe i misunderstood you. How can we believe the veshl communication from your General Council how can Congress Look at that . Do you see a problem with nat . I do and that is why i will work with the department. Let me tell you, if you will comply. I dont recognize the attorneyclient privilege. That was clear. The other part is the chairman doesnt recognize it and neither does the Ranking Member recognize it. All we want is to make sure ms. Learner can get her job done and not be stonewalled. I told you i was willing to have a reset but todays testimony is very troubling. It sounds like we had a nice coom bya meeting and we are here are entrenched rhetoric. Is that not . No. I appreciate the time i appreciate your time bit let me say it needs to be productive time. Absolutely. I made a promise to reach out you are saying that the things you redacted wont interfere with her investigation. That is your sworn testimony . I went back as part of my testimony i recounted something i said to you today. It was to the best of my knowledge. So when i went back to the meeting, i asked my staff to go through the facts. When kay tham back with two i said the policy is if you ever react anything you will provide us with a privilege log. Let me ask you, has the osc other disclosed things that were not appropriate to your knowledge . Not to my knowledge, no, sir. If they never had a problem why redact that . There are multiple parties as we discussed in an ongoing case. But if they never released any of that why are you concerned . Let me tell you why your concerned. You are trying to cover up for something that may or may not have been done. I said i will research but if you will not research, we will look at this with the chairmans indull indulgence. I will not be stonewalled. It is not my intent to stonewall you. I appreciate the reset and ability to share information and be transparent. I do appreciate there are certain attorneyclient privilege issues. I dont appreciate that. I do. I have to work with the department. Should i call general kelly . Please dont do that. You have a short fuse because i cannot imagine general kelly would like to cover up anything. Sir, i hope you cant imagine i would like it cover anything up. That is how it appears. Get ms. Learner what she needs. Ms. Gowadia, if this violates federal law which will you foll follow . Federal law. What information is naughts providing you . Do you give everything to the osc . Yes, everything other than the redacted information. Why isnt that true with the Inspector General . They are part of the department. The guidance is external to the department. You are all part of the United States government, correct . Yes. Who do you work for . The american public. That is right. That is who is paying. We setup a statute, federal law that you said you were going to abide by that allows the office of special council to dive into these issues. You do treat the Inspector General different than you do the osc . In this instance, yes we do. Do we have any problems with that in we get ssi information, sensitive security information from tsa, never had a problem getting that. We handle it appropriately. They can mark it as sensitive. I am confused by they dont provide us what they considered Attorney Client. If they want to mark something as privilege we will make sure it is handled in a confidant way. We set it up so you could be the one to be the independent arbitrator here. Ms. Gowadia, is the white house external to the department . Yes, they are, sir. But i dont know i dont know the answer to that. I think you have a nice person and have a host of issues you have to deal with. I think the guidance you are getting is wrong, violates federal law and is unacceptable and now has the full attention of this committee, i assure you and we will go to the ends of the earth and what we are trying to do on both sides of the aisle is protect whistleblowers so they get a fair hearing but they cant if they only get a portion of the documents. That is the problem and the challenge and there is a conflict when that attorney may or may not have been involved in some of those decisions and covering that up. I think you have a cultural problem in tsa and Homeland Security. I am very curious to see the discipline for that approach. I do appreciate everybody that was here. We look forward to following up the information. The committee now stands adjourned