Transcripts For CSPAN2 Eric Holder And Sam Koppelman Our Unfinished March 20221027

Club bar book event featurir attorney general eric holder and bestselling author Sam Koppelman. Im mike balsamo, the justice along for report for the associate press, and National Press club secretary. Were looking forward to a robust discussion today and are happy to take your questions as well from the audience. If you have a question please write them on the card under seat and you can hand them to kate right there in the back. 2022 may be the year of the gerrymander. States are grappling with population shifts after the 2020 census and that means legislatures are in the throes of redrawing election maps. Troops on both sides of god have called foul and are taking their cases to the court. Judges have thrown out republican drawn redistricting maps and ohio, North Carolina and pennsylvania. And democratic drawn maps in new york and maryland. Republicans have called democrat strategy sue until it is blue. Democrats of cold republican efforts undemocratic, radically motivated gerrymandering that intends to suppress the votes of minorities and young people. Our guest today have been at the center of this battle for Voting Rights for years. As attorney general and the obama administration, eric holder plays Voting Rights of the top of his agenda and was an outspoken critic of voter id laws. Now he chose a National Democratic Redistricting Committee and with bustling other Sam Koppelman the former director of circuit speechwriting on the bidenharris campaign, has written our unfinished march the violent past and imperiled future of the votea history, a crisis, a plan. The book explores the oftentimes harsh history of the vote, is placed at the core democracy, and its vulnerability. The Voting Rights act has been under assault since it was signed by Lyndon Johnson in 1965 with the latest salvo coming in 2013 with a landmark ruling in shelby v. Holder that struck down the section of law that required some jurisdictions with a history of Voter Suppression to seek approval from the Justice Department before acting changes to existing voter laws and procedures. Since then many states have passed laws restricting the vote. Where delighted to have with us today but attorney general holder and Sam Koppelman to discuss the book. Gentlemen, welcome to the National Press club, and with that, attorney general holder, the podium is yours. Okay, thank you. Well good afternoon. Its a pleasure to be here, and thanks for that kind introduction. Thanks for having me. Ive been to the press club in quite some time. Im excited to talk about our new book, our unfinished march and also talk about our ongoing and continuing fight to save our democracy. So lets start here. Our country has achieved i think once inconceivable progress over the course of the life of this nation and certainly over the course of the last few decades. We elected the first black president and the first black vice president. We have confirmed the first black woman who sit on the United States Supreme Court. I was the first black attorney general of the United States. I mean, just one generation after my father was told to leave a whites only train car while wearing the United States army uniform, during the course of world war ii, his son was able to serve as attorney general of the United States. Thats progress. Thats progress to my parents and generations before would never have imagined but we need to be extremely clear that progress did not simply arise. It was won by those who confronted sources to forces of injustice throughout the history of this nation to make america a better, more equal and more fair place. It was built by individuals we talk about indie book who are committed to our highest ideals, and he was achieved as it always has been in the midst of unrelenting and escalating attempts to fight against democracy and against democratic ideals. For as long as america has existed, two opposing forces have clashed over how we express and how we can further the rights and privileges of citizenship. From the founding the slavery to abolition, to reconstruction to jim crow, those who sought a more inclusive nation have encountered by those who were determined to gain power at the expense of others. Antidemocracy forces use property and poll taxes and literacy tests, intimidation and outright violence to achieve their goals. And even after landmark civil rights legislation and Voting Rights legislation were signed into law, these forces found ways to undermine and to ignore the freedoms that america promised to all of its citizens. Now, i saw these threats up close as attorney general of the United States. Photo id laws aimed at suppressing the votes of young people and people of color. Voter roll purges that delete millions of eligible, eligible voters names disproportionate impacting minority communities. Polling place closures and consolidations that vastly increase wait times in minority neighborhoods. Gerrymanders designed with surgical precision to dilute and diminish the voting power of black and brown americans. These measures were never spontaneous emotional responses from dispossessed individuals or sporadic efforts to improve elections security. Instead they have been part of a highly strategic, wellfunded campaign fueled by powerful interests committed to getting our democracy. It is a campaign that is only intensified in recent years. Since the date of the last president ial election lawmakers across the country have introduced more than 400 restrictive election bills in 49 states and passing more than 30 in at least 19 states. Our institutions have been wounded, damaged by a president who spent four years abusing his power and by insurrections and their allies who are working to do in state legislatures what they could not do at the capital on january the sixth. We are facing an attack on the right to vote not seen since the jim crow era. And the question is, what do we do now . Sam and i wrote this book to answer that question in particular to give you a sense of our history, to give you a sense of the nature of the problem we confront today, and also to provide some concrete solutions about what do we do next. To provide that a larger context for the brutal, bloody and at times hopeful history of the fight of Voting Rights we talked about the history to show what it looks like to wage a successful battle for democracy. We talk about certain individuals and elevate them, bring them back into the consciousness of people in this country. And propose a policy playbook for how we can reverse the tides of Voter Suppression. We have specific ideas about things that we ought to consider. A lot of people have reacted and said when youre talking about things that sound too expansive, too big for this nation to do, but thats what defines this country at its best, when we do big. The great society, that was big. The new frontier, the idea that that was big. The new deal, that was big. Eisenhowers attempt come successful attempt to build the interstate highway system, that was big. This nation does big. This nation does hard. That is what makes us exceptional and we need leaders who will think they begin and then lead this nation a really substantial ways. The playbook that we talk but includes really two vital categories. First we have to fix our elections and policies that are guided by one key principle, and that is making it easier to vote. Vote. If the United States is going to be truly a Representative Democracy then it needs to represent all of our citizens, that means all of our citizens need to be able to use their vote, their voice in a way they use their voice is to vote. No matter who you are, which look like and where you live or how many hours you can afford to spend waiting in line. If you are an eligible voter we must not only allow you to vote, we have to make it easy for you to vote. Think about it. That sounds like a pretty, something a nobrainer. There are people who are said that we should not make it easier to vote. We should make it harder to vote, cast people to see whether or not they would want to overcome obstacles in order to cast a ballot. Every eligible voter deserves a fair, equal and meaningful opportunity to make their voice heard. That is what we say in our blood. Second, we need to reform our institutions. The bedrock of our democracy, and thats no small task because right now most of our institutions are geared towards maintaining an unjust status quo. We have an unnecessary in at the Democratic Electoral college that reversed the peoples vote in 40 of president ial elections over the past two decades. We have extolled in Supreme Court that is guided landmark civil rights legislation and Voting Rights legislation with more fundamental Freedoms Hang in the balance. That leaked opinion gives us a sense of where this report about to go. We have worked the senate the concentrates too much power in the hands of an extreme minority of the population. We need to reimagine these institutions so they live up to their ideals to ensure every person has a fair say in the direction of our democracy. Even the house of representatives, what the founders envisioned as the peoples house is plagued by gerrymandering that box extreme politicians in and shuts American Voters out. The congressional map is as close to even as it has been in a generation, just about finished drawing and yet the number of competitive seats in the United States house of representatives is at a historic low. People of color continue to be denied a fair representation. Now some of the ideas we lay out in a book may sound as i said radical but what ive seen enough as a prosecutor as a judge also as attorney general to know that fundamental change is necessary to get fundamental change is possible. Ive seen enough not just in my career but also in my lifetime, as a black man in this country, to know that change in fact, is possible. And im confident that even today we have the power to unleash the promise of our democracy and live up to the values that we all say that we hold dear. And thats what this book is about, to show you how we can channel the courage of foot soldiers for democracy who came before us, build on that legacy in this new century, and take america to the place where we all wanted to be. Because the truth is that the success or failure of our democracy isnt up to me, its not up to an attorney general, its not up to the government. Its up to all of us. Everyone of us has to stand up for our ideals. Everyone of us has to speak out for sales and also for each other. Everyone of us must recognize our obligation to embrace our power, to act with clarity and purpose, even and especially when its hard, when it seems like it cant be done. Thats the way to make change in this country. Thats the way weve may change in this country in the past. I think this country is up to doing it once again. So i want to thank you for inviting us to be a today and we look forward to interacting with all of you with any questions you might want to ask. Thank you, gentlemen. I wanted to start with some recent news. So yesterday a florida judge struck down parts of Governor Ron Desantis Congressional District map as unconstitutional, the map dispersed 600 367,000, excuse me, africanamerican, excuse me, africanAmerican Voters among four different districts. A clear attempt to dilute black voting power and creating a majority safe republican district. The santos says he will appeal, so can you, general, give us your analysis of the situation in florida which is traditionally been speeded its an interesting thing. You have to put this in context. Ron desantis said what the Florida Legislature was intending to do, republicans and for the legislation to do was a pretty bad gerrymander didnt go far enough turkey said i would veto that which the Republican Legislature was going to do, im going to veto that and they caved in and passed that which he proposed. A judge is now said that given the situation in florida theres an amendment to the florida constitution that requires redistricting to be done on a nonpartisan basis. A judge has said that what the governor has proposed or the legislature put into effect is, in fact, inappropriate. It has a particularly negative impact on africanAmerican Voters in the i guess the northern part of florida. And it is something that we seem republicans do in the present day. Sam can talk about the situation we describe in the book in North Carolina but it is typical of the problem that we have two callout come typical of the problem that we have to confront. Too many republicans are afraid of the people who they say they want to represent. They want to pick their own voters as opposed to letting citizens choose who the representative ought to be. Sam, maybe talk about what happened North Carolina. And book would write about this student named love caesar who was at college in North Carolina that split the university historically black college in half. She explained to her classmates that what theyre doing with silencing their voices, erasing the power of the votes and so she went outside in the middle of the night with charts and youre aligned in the middle of the campus to show where power was being divided, how is being attacked the lead to all sorts of outrage, people can together protested. With help of the attorney Generals Organization those maps ended up being thrown out. It was a moment where republicans the folks who drew the maps that they can get away with silent intentional bureaucratic silencing of votes and because the people responded, those in power were forced to pay attention. You can overcome this gerrymandering and dispatch is a situation where prodemocracy because it makes it so certain voices have more power than others. The other thing gerrymander does is it makes districts weigh less competitive i basically making it so theres blood election computer more when the primaries than they are about the general election. Thats how you end up having bills like the ones that make the way through state legislatures that that access to choice because the people who pass them know theyre not actually going to be held accountable for the majority that opposed the kind of legislation. The only way youre going to get representatives who represent you is by speaking up, speaking out and purchasing those kinds of maps and getting them thrown out in the courts. You look at sort of the radicalization of the state legislatures, the same ones that can suppress the vote to make it harder for you to vote in the future to make it easy to get gerrymandering in the future. You understand this democratic doom loop with the people for getting elected by minorities and that passing laws that increase minority rule that make it harder and harder in order to undo that power. Its how you end up with these laws. How you end up with represent his like Madison Cawthorn who end up in carters, truly crazy people who otherwise would never win and thats reason that we have to combat the. The important thing about love caesar, i went down to North Carolina a t which is a largest African American historically black college and university in the country. They split that colors. They split the campus. Half the black kids are, half the black it in another Congressional District simply to weaken the power because taken together they were a pretty for a little force pixel is put them. Thats called cracking. Sometimes you pack people together but that also shows the power of the individual. This notion that we cant do this, the problems are too big. A young africanamerican woman named love caesar with a piece of chalk true that line exactly where the line had been drawn by the legislature to demonstrate to the students there and to the larger public would actually was going on. We use that data point in our lawsuit and had a judge throw those maps out. The judges he brought his case before one been described with the republicans have done their, having drawn discriminatory lines with surgical precision. Surgical precision, splitting up a campus. You wake up in one Congressional District in a dorm, you go to a class and another Congressional District. Think about that. Thats what has been done into many places but also think about the power of an individual to have an impact in changing that. Thank you, general. You wrote in a column for time that the Supreme Courts mission had been compromised and that the institution is in need of reform. He sighed specifically shall be, the case that get in the Voting Rights act as a moment that made you realize a modernday existential crisis. What disturbed you particularly about shelby . First, that my name is on it. Its like you called it right. I never say Shelby County versus my name. I dont want to be associated with that case. I mean, again we talk about this in the book, that is, the Voting Rights act of 1965 is the crown jewel of the Civil Rights Movement. It is of the thing that fundamentally changed politics in this nation. You look at the before and after number of africanamerican representatives at the state, local and federal level, people of color. You see a huge increase, a huge increase in the number of African Americans who actually registered to vote. Africanamerican power, so long suppressed, was unleashed after the Voting Rights act of 1965. In the Shelby County case, chief Justice Roberts says that america has changed. All right, and i wouldnt dispute that. I would not dispute that but he thinks america in opinion thought americas change so much that there was no longer need in essence, and we can go to the particulars but in essence for an effective Voting Rights act. And as we note in the book usada not years later, weeks later, but hours later you saw states around the country putting in place Voter Suppression measures that would have been prohibited had to act state intact. That is that a negative impact on our democracy from the date of that decision up to the present. I actually think thats a trio of cases that the Supreme Court is rendered that will sustain the Roberts Court. It will not show the Roberts Court in a good way. Citizens united which allowed the free flow of money into our system. Shelby county case in 2013, and then with the Supreme Court said federal courts should not be involved in deciding issues of gerrymandering. Those are political questions for all of this has allowed for antidemocratic, and that democracy measures being put in place that have disproportionate impact on people of color. You couple that and we say the book with the theft of two Supreme Court seats, Merrick Garland never given a hearing, actually never even can even many interviews come to understand the days before an election but you said thats too close to the election. And then you go to Amy Coney Barrett and she is placed on the court while people are voting. So those are two seats that could be in the hands of democratically appointed, wouldve been made by democratically appointed by democrats and that wouldve had a a negative, that would have fundamental, but in a impact on whole range of issues. Had Merrick Garland been on the court we would at a fight for Progressive Court for about two or three years and a whole number of decisions including Shelby County case mightve been decided differently 54. The other reason is auxiliary offers Voting Rights act three different times come sign each time by republican president. The last time in 2006 under george w. Bush after a 98 to zero vote in in the senate bringing together Mitch Mcconnell and hillary clinton. They both voted for it. It was a clear popular mandate. Mace on the scene evidence 15,000 pages of evidence the Supreme Court looked and said we think america is changing and would usher there will be a new wave of Voter Suppression. Then what Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg wrote we dont need precludes because of that Voter Suppression is like being in middle of a rainstorm having an umbrella throwing up because youre not getting with pictures to the reason america had changed, the reason theres been progress the reason our democracy have become a democracy was because of the Voting Rights act. The Supreme Court decided to test it. Some like it was a mystery. Literally the next week that they great abbey effort te at attorney general eric holder is a collect ha ha im going to pass this bill and they pass those bills and then methodically surgically unwound all of the progress we made over decades. The Supreme Court hasnt come back and admitted they were wrong. In fact, congress has not even come back and reauthorize the Voting Rights act so we left without the protections and with the same insidious intent on behalf of republicans leaving our country and our democracy and complete shambles. Had the Voting Rights act been in effect, a whole nother of things might not have occurred. The use of these unnecessary photo id laws that you have to show in some states in order to vote probably would not have been allowed by the Justice Department if it hadnt intact Voting Rights act. The closure of polling places of almost 1800 polling places around the country disproportionally in those places that were once covered by the Voting Rights act would probably not a been allowed. I mean, theres a whole range of things, and these have real impacts, real impacts agent understand in this era of close elections if you shave one or two Percentage Points opposite africanamerican vote, the perceived democratic vote, that can have a really dramatic impact on the outcome of elections. One of the statistics sam maybe you can talk how long it takes to vote in atlanta, that number that we had that we sent in. It was something like, i forget the exact number, but do you remember . In the 2020 election, president ial election, if you came to atlanta a polling place after 6 p. M. , sandy on election day, and you are an africanamerican precinct, took 251 minutes to vote on average for if you in a white precinct in atlanta sameday sae election in turkey six minutes to vote. So that is a real impact. That is really back. So you wonder why did the folks in georgia pass this father said you cant give food and water to people who are waiting in line . Because they knew damn well the people wait in line were people of color in georgia and the want to make it as difficult as this possible for people to simply get to the polls. I want to follow up on a point that you made. The Shelby County decision severely curtails the ability of the Justice Department to bring Voting Rights matters, but the Department Still have some role. Can you talk a little bit about the power the Department Still has in ensuring peoples right to vote across the country . Yeah, watch the Supreme Court. Section two still remains, and that deals with the whole vote dilution whether power can exercise by communities come various communities. We won a case that is a National Democratic Redistricting Committee won a case in alabama with two trump judges, two appointed trump judges who said you know if given the size of the africanamerican population in alabama there should be a great opportunity for that community to elect another congressman or congressperson of their choice. And through out the maps that it been recently done by the republican dominated legislature. This happened this year. The United States Supreme Court said well, too close to the election. Too close to the election. We will not allow that change to occur, that we draw to occur, vote on the maps that were put in place by the Republican Legislature which a federal court, right, two federal court actually found to be inappropriate, unconstitutional. So the votes that will happen in alabama this as a result of the Supreme Courts action are going to be those elections will take place on these already found to be inappropriate maps. Heres my prediction. Section two of this alabama case will get to the Supreme Court and this radicalized Supreme Court will do to section two i fear what it did to the other components of the Voting Rights act, which could render the Voting Rights act of 1965 almost no. It may not happen. Based on the way in which this court has dealt with election related issues, we talk about the young chief Justice John Roberts and what he did when he was an attorney at the Justice Department opposing a specific measure their common act was threatened a long time ago. But given his history, given the other five justices who constitute that conservative portion of the court, section two is at risk as well. You suggested term limits for Supreme Court justices in the past. Can you explain your thinking . Yet. I mean, this is one as we know in the book where chief Justice Roberts and former attorney general holder are on the same page. He said in in a speech that e quote pretty extensively that Supreme Court justice should serve 15 years. I say 18 years, we go on to say that president s should appoint Supreme Court justices and justice and a first year of his or her term, and in the third year of his or her term. And that way your new people coming onto the court, new bld coming onto the court and if you do an 18 year term it would ultimately reduce the size of the court back down tonight. I also think we need to expand the court given the fact that two Cecil Stoughton in the way that i described. I think you want to have term limits because you appoint people now to the Supreme Court at age 50 or so and i guess a judge in florida, whatever her name, rendered and a poor decision block, shes 33 33 s old. You can serve 30 years, four years. Thats too long for somebody to be in a position of power, in an unelected position of power to have an impact on the direction of the nation. So i think just all the other reasons why a term limit of 18 years makes a great deal of sense. Two things have also changed since our founding in one is Life Expectancy which is increased obviously so instead of Supreme Court justices serving ten, 15, 20 years face of decades and decades and decades. This means they are able to strategically retire often, so they will intentionally retirement someone with the same ideology is president. The use to just die in office and so there would be some still guess the city who ended up getting to a point there. Now theyre pretty intentional about it and so theyre able to increase their own partisanship in that process. It means this takes it each Supreme Court fight in us and our exits entrance at the end of having these total wars each time someone is appointed which diminishes trust in the court as an institution. If you made this process more standardized, less arbitrary, you made it for every president so that each served 18 years and by the way the longterm effect of this in short would increase the number of justices but eventually if you do that i dont know i trusted his math if back to nine justices i think. So then you end up having a similar court but it has legitimacy in the eyes of the people. Its better for the Supreme Court justices helped focus on doing their cases et cetera try to politically timed their retirements but is better for the American People are whoe again to trust and highest court in the land. Its a pretty nobrainer situation at different points different parties have been in favor of his reforms. Its a question of doing it. 70 of americans are in favor of term limits for Supreme Court justices. Even out even when it would have vanished republican if you leave the status quo in place. Its a nobrainer. It just has to happen. On the legislative front what do you see as obstacles to getting Voting Rights legislation through congress and how do you go about then protecting Voting Rights in this country . I think the problem with getting Voting Rights legislation through both of the federal level and at the state level is that this is all about power. This is all about power, who has power, whos willing to give up power. So to go to a republican dominated state legislature and say we need to put reforms in place, is its probably goino decrease your power. The prime directive for politicians is to get reelected. Theres a problem there. And to be fair if you go to a blue state and say to a democratic controlled state legislature, we want you to put in place measures that will decrease your power, they pull back on that as well. At the federal level with the thin majority that the democrats have, we were unable to pass legislation that would have ameliorated a lot of the things we talk about in the book. It was a disappointing thing to see two Democratic Senators not think that the filibuster or not think that Voting Rights legislation was more important than the preservation of the filibuster. And so senators, senator sinema and senator manchin i think deserve some criticism there. But it think people are getting a pass. Are those the two republicans who voted as a block to say we are not going to be in favor of making changes that will make the nation more prodemocracy, everyone to maintain a status quo where we have, you know, gerrymandering deciding to often who controls the United States house of representatives, or what the margins are. Democrats want about 5 million more votes than republicans in the last election for the United States house of representatives that have a margin of about five or six seats, i dont know, after the last redistricting democrats 11. 4 million more votes in 2012. 1. 4 million more votes than republicans and were in a 33 seat deficit. Even even though they get more votes. That kind of stuff, as sam was saying, that kind of gerrymandering leads to an action because what youre concerned about moore is a prime rate than a general election, you do want to be seen as cooperating with people on the opposing party because thats seen as a sign of weakness and invites a primary challenge, a challenger. It results in nothing being done which then results in cynicism. We see obvious problems can we see obvious solutions, we see majority support for the solutions of the nothing ever happens. Nothing ever happens. That is what people at such low regard for our governmental system right now. The senate itself is built to be my new return. Does represent the American People and the slightest. Right now their safety democrats and 50 republicans in the senate. Democrats won 40 million more votes for the same number of seats. Thats fun midland to anyone who understand anything about democracy undemocratic. This is the design of the senate, the great compromise but at that time the state with the most of the people have a times more people than the state with the least number of people. Now its like 60. 60. If your summit in north dakota or wyoming or one of these other small states, you are like 60 times more of a say in what happens in the senate that if you were from california. So you look at that and you wonder like why on earth do the states with the its because fundamentally thats not have institution at the site and those were in power dont want to change it definitionally. Its about taking real risks and first getting rid of the filibuster which this is mindboggling. So if 40 senators from the lease oculus states decide to hold up a bill supported by 59 of the senators or 60 other senators, they could be 18 of the population. You have a situational 82 of the public is in support of something and 18 is able to stop it from happening. Youve got to get rid of the filibuster first and foremost but then you got to make d. C. In puerto rico states. You got to do all the work of making the same and actually represented institution is otherwise were playing from behind and having to make all sorts of compromises because we didnt with an institution that is fundamentally not aligned with the values of democracy. And thats not likely to change. The the structure of the cityt likely to change which would require a constitutional amendment which will never pass. It is part of the great compromise and we have the senate as it is. Our proposal is you admit washington d. C. And puerto rico as states washington d. C. Has aa greater population and two states. Draco has agreed a population i think of 21 states. Im a resident of washington, d. C. I pay federal taxes. We send our sons and daughters off to war. We are good citizens and yet we do not have representation in congress. So thats at least one of these which we think you could rebalance the senate. Though i have to say everybody just the sound puerto rico, washington, d. C. They will automatically sent democrat, democrats to the city. Thats not necessary to certain puerto rico where on an island wide basis republicans have won and republicans have one here in washington, d. C. As well. But at least thats an opportunity. Its a possibility of doing something with the senate that otherwise is probably pretty impermeable to change. In a highly polarized country how do you convince people who are not imperiled by this to care about Voting Rights or those who have the most to lose from their Voting Rights to care . I think it requires leadership and talking about these issues. I mean, theres a great many things the American People have to deal with. You have 24 7 new cycle we worried about, Prison Guards having somebody escape or summit having romantic relationships. Whatever. Theres a whole range of issues that get thrown at us and we dont devote nearly enough time to i think that which maybe matters the most and thats the state of our democracy. When you did talk about it more. Our leaders need to put these issues front and center. As a proud democrat i think thats one of the issues we should be running on. Certainly lets talk about the progress the Biden Administration made in dealing with the pandemic, bringing the economy back but lets also run on democracy. Lets run on democracy. Where do you all, where do you stand on partisan gerrymandering . Peoples eyes glaze over, what he talk about . If you care about a womans right to choose come if you care about criminal justice reform, if you care about climate come if you care about Election Protection to all of that stuff is directly related as sam said before to gerrymander. So educate the American People about these prodemocracy issues. I actually think they are winning issues. I think the American People are ready for the kind of change that we talk about in the book. I think there has been a failure in this country by those who have led us to ask the American People to face some tough issues and be prepared to come up with some hard answers. I think, i still think we have it within us to these kinds of things if, if we can put them before the American People. The question of how do you get people to care, this event a question since the very beginning of the Voting Rights struggle. The answer is your to make them care. Those in power have never wanted to relinquish napoli on power that they have. In rhode island were white men couldnt vote at the end of the 19th century, thomas dora, seth luther led this rebellion there are literally palming the capital for Voting Rights. Were not saying bomb the capital. That the other side. But what then happens is you look at in reconstruction Civil Rights Movement womens suffrage movement, outside the white house every single day prostitute she gets arrested for protesting and refused to become has to be fed through tg tube in prison for womens right to have a vote. In the new look at the Civil Rights Movement obviously everyone knows the struggle and resistance that when he do that but its not like this is something thats ever come easily. Those in power have always wanted to maintain it and with more of the voice now. We have a vote now. We have resources now that weve ever had before to lead this fight. As much as anyone, some days i want to resort to pessimism and just throw in the towel but if you look at the history of this country we are the best equipped of any of those people to actually realize the promise of our democracy. So its a question of whether we will have that will come whether we will still fight past generations, imperfect as it were, methods, we need to take that same urgency and go campaign on it in the way they have with real resistance because otherwise obviously power begets power and its nothing without the man come as Frederick Douglass at. This is an issue we confronted as a nation since we were a nation. We talk about what happen in rhode island as sam was saying. White men without property could not vote. Seth luther said no, thats just wrong. So again they resorted to the bomb and all the stuff but ultimately white men without property have the right to vote. Women were denied the right to vote. That change didnt happen because it was time. It happened because people like alice paul, ida b. Wells decided that theyre going to do something to make sure that this happens. There was a march 1913 where women marched for the right to vote. They were beaten here in washington, d. C. They were beaten for kind of protest for those rights. Our system of political apartheid didnt and because its timeless. It was because people like dr. Martin luther king, those three civil rights workers in mississippi gave their lives. Other people, you know, sacrificed. We talk about cage lee, eddie lee jackson, people in the south who sacrificed. Medgar evers. You know, you think about all these people and what they faced to make the progress that we now enjoy, answer your question is a good one. Are we willing to make the sacrifices that they did . We will not face what medgar evers faced. There are not going to be people shooting at you if you dont have to put your life on the line. Our crazies out there, but the stakes are not as high. The physical stakes are not as high. The stakes for our democracy is just as great now as they were back then. Thats why think leadership and the involvement of the American People, the history that we outline shows that if you get a committed american citizenry you can make fundamental change. So anybody who tells you that sam and error, they are just wrong, none of the stuff can happen, thats wrong. If we work hard enough for it if we commit ourselves to it, the kind of changes were talking about are indeed possible. You both have mentioned this case, so one of the most watched pending redistricting cases now is out of alabama, the case involving a claim that a new Congressional District map approved by the legislature unlawfully dilute the voting power of the states black communities. The Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case next fall but in the meantime is allowing to stay till the 2222 election using a map that is being challenged in the suit. General, you have call that an ideological abuse of the courts power. Can you bring us up to speed on that case which many in the room may not have heard of, and explain why you think the high court got this wrong . As i said before, ill be pretty brief, alabamas black population is 24, 27 . If you look at the number of congressmen that they have an figure out, well, who have the ability to choose a representative in the way the lines are drawn, africanamericans are packed in such a way that all the power that africanamericans have can be expressed in that one district. If you geographically draw the lines in a sane way you would end up with probably to make africanamerican districts or two districts were africanamerican likely to win. Again, he brought this lawsuit in alabama and we won before a single judge and also one before a special court that was comprised of three judges, two again had been appointed by President Trump are both judges said that makes a good point, that the light or dont have done so inappropriate. Supreme court simply had, theres plenty of time tim pawlenty time to redraw the line. Ray drawing the lines after you that whole number of maps proposed doesnt take an awful long time. They couldve redraw the lines come redone the ballot and in the primaries and everything like that. Supreme court steps and said no, too close to the election. Really . Okay. So as i said, what youre going to do in alabama is have an election on maps that four judges have said are unconstitutional and that are going to deprive africanamericans africanamericans of the ability to really exercise their power. As i said the thing that concerns me is there going uses of the vehicle to get at section two which is a basis of a. Theyre going to say section two is a race driven component of the Voting Rights act of 1965. Fact ron desantis has already kind of stumbled into that in a way that only he can. I think the court is likely to use this case as a way to get at section two of the act as well. Just to follow up on that. In light of last weeks leak of the preliminary vote, the preliminary opinion in roe, that ultimately could strike down roe v. Wade, d. C. The alabama case as another piece of evidence suggesting this newer conservative leaning Supreme Court may peel away more perceived and present summarize one after another. Was sure. I mean, i dont think were going to see that opinion, the language of that opinion survive. Its caustic. Its overheated. Its unnecessary. It doesnt hold up logically or legally. But, but i think youre are more likely than not to see the overall decision, which is to overrule roe v. Wade survive. And the way to do that is to say that the attack the right to privacy. Right now Justice Alito fences we are doing this to roe v. Wade, were not doing this to a whole bunch of other computer, writes that the American People have. But once youve done it, once youve done it the genie is out of the bottle, you know, and so samesex marriage, contraceptio contraception, and youre all return to see this in some state legislatures talking about well, you know, we ought to be able to legislate whether or not unmarried people have the ability to make, to use contraceptives. You think about this stuff, you know. The possibility of interracial marriage. Again its all based on the notion of the right to privacy. Individuals have the right to privacy. The government should not interfere. This decision which i think as a said is likely to occur will have a huge collateral impact on a whole range of rights, not all of which will be expressed by the federal government but in these gerrymandered state legislatures. They are now free of having a weekend right to privacy, will do a whole range of crazy aspect thinks it will not be supported by the majority of people in the states because you get gerrymandered state legislatures, they will try to put them into sector i dont member exactly what state was but a write about it, i went to my but if you want to say this to because i dont want to cast aspersions on an inaccurate way but i know its our head conversation but did with the notion of contraception in unmarried couples. Think about that. Is this where we are potentially going . Claims of voter fraud in a rate 2020 election, august disputed by dozens of judges come Election Officials and President Trumps former attorney general himself has shaken voter confidence nevertheless. This could influence the perception of our Voting System for years and election cycles to come. What do you suggest state and federal Government Official due to boost confidence in our democracy . I assume we have lots of people in the media here. One of the things we have to do is the media, and im not being critical here but the media needs to call out all of these inaccuracies. The notion that the election of which is held, president ial election 2020, was in anyway read, and, and i could come false, tampered with his nonsense. Its just nonsense. I think its the responsibility of the press, if i say its ring outside and my republican colleagues says its not raining outside, the media should report welcome the democrats that was raining, republican said it wasnt raining. The media to tell us come wasnt raining outside . And so there needs to be an analysis or analyses done. And its been done. I think in a lot of ways in a lot of media circles, but any time there is a report or a claim by somebody about what happened in the 2020 election, that has to be a factual rejoinder to. You. I think thats three have to start. Then i think we have to get in touch with the American People through the political process and push back against what republicans, too many republicans, are saying about what happened in 2020, in 2020 and and then using what happened that did not happen in 2020 as a basis basis for further voter restrictions. I mean, you know texas may be the hardest date in which to vote. Georgia are real hard state to vote. They were not satisfied with what happened in 2020. Texas republicans did pretty well in Texas Democrats did pretty well in georgia. They introduced more restrictions after election in 2020 all based on the notion, this fanciful notion that there was widespread voter fraud, of which there is absolutely no statistical proof. Zero, nada, zero, it does not exist. We have to keep saying that. Sam, you talked a little bit about this earlier but if we dont make progress and Voting Rights in the United States, what difference do you think that makes in this country in 50 or 100 years from now . Right. If i pretend to know whats going on 50 or 100 years. That would be a sign of forced things for me. But i mean, i think fundamentally if you look at the margin that these elections are decided by, the attorney general said, if you wouldve had 3 lower africanamerican turnout in georgia in 2020, the election gets lit. So you look at how tight these margins are and what we are relying on. So even this small attempts to suppress the vote at the margins make massive differences. So much of the country future depends on the 2000 decision of bush v. Gore which was election decided by a few hundred votes, that election there were many more voters purged from the rolls inaccurately and the margin of the election. Mpletely different had there not been voter purges. And since this stuff has all been in complete overdrive. But, you know, to get to that question about like, how do we the question is how do we store faith in elections . Republicans like and arsonist burning down your home saying how do we increase Home Fire Safety . Republicans are trying to solve a problem they created in the Media Questions how do we restore faith in the election . Maybe if republicans didnt work specifically in tension a land methodically to destroy faith in the election, democrats and republicans confused whether it is raining outside maybe we wouldnt have to deal with this problem in the first place. Putting the onus on folks describing the state of the democracy, youre more likely to be struck by lightning, a lot of medical to be struck by lightning than show up in person and admit voter fraud. Look at the situation on the ground. Folks are telling the truth should see the proof and that is a fundamental demonstration of power that democracy is falling apart and what to do about it. You talk about this in the writing of the book, the big lie, it had its desired impact. We talk about the origins of the big lie, european country in the 20th century, how far do we go with it because we never want to compare anybody or anything with the german experience of the 20th century and the notion of the big lie and what joseph globalss said about the impact of the big lie, some of the people some of the time 20 of the people said the moon landing didnt occur. A certain number of people you are not going to reach but a whole bunch of people who if confronted with facts consistently with facts will actually change their minds but it is going to take the process. We have a news channel, fox news thats about a lot of this stuff and a lot of people use them as the sole place from which they get their news and this is a problem we didnt have to confront in the watergate years. I wonder given what nixon did, far less serious than what trump and his cohorts did, obstructing the peaceful transition of power, during the watergate years, i wonder if he had been forced to resign. I am not sure. Characterizing voter fraud the way you did, defeated by judges, federal local over and over again our country would be in a radically different place. The fact that it never happened that way in those settings is a detriment to our democracy and the people who have no information to make a choice. This afternoon the january 6th committee subpoenaed Kevin Mccarthy and several republicans. Do you believe they should cooperate with the committees inquiry and if not do you think the Justice Department has a role in bringing criminal charges for contempt for failing to cooperate with the inventory . The Committee Conducted itself in an appropriate way, they sought voluntary cooperation. They said we will not interact and they did the necessary thing. This is happened before, the Ethics Committee has done this before and im sure this will end up in a lawsuit. I hope the court will do so on that basis so we hear from people who have been subpoenaed. The question the American People should ask themselves is why arent you talking to the january 6th committee . What are you trying to hide . Kevin mccarthy, immediately after the election, you seem to have changed after you took the trip to maralago, you held donald trump accountable for january 6th or are you saying it was overblown and fees were peaceful protesters. Are you afraid of talking to the january 6th committee, why are you afraid to talk to the American People about it and the same to all the other people who have been subpoenaed. Those voting in those districts in november, that would be to me an important thing. Why is the congressman not cooperating with the january 6th committee . What does my congressman not want to share . What is my congressman afraid of . Before we get into time, let me thank the headliners and Club Membership director don mccarron, would like to thank general holder and Sam Koppelman for being with us today. As an appreciation for your time. Lets get to the final question from the audience. Are you disheartened by the slow pace the department of justice is handling referrals and if you were attorney general would you be pursuing these referrals with greater speed . I dont have insight to what is happening in the Justice Department, nothing is going on for an extended time. I have great trust in Merrick Garland and lisa monaco. There is something going on. That is not lack of guts. There something going on with regard to their failure to do something. I dont know what the Justice Department is or is not doing with regards to the january 6th investigation but i have faith in their abilities and the attorney general is in a tough position because the tradition of the Justice Department is you dont talk about investigations and cant talk about grand jury investigations. We dont know all the Justice Department is doing but i think there is an educational component the department has a response ability to do. It would not be a good thing for the press conference that is happening for the Justice Department and announced the case of the United States versus donald trump. There needs to be some way to let the American People know what the department is about, the investigation, the extent it is going. There are ways it can be done. Thats a place where if i were giving some advice, if i was giving advice to the department, i would do things a different way. Theres a lot of criticism of the department all of which will be for not if indictment are returned, no one will remember they got excoriated some number of months, if they invite a few people, the ultimate person, that will be forgotten but doing things the right way, the attorney general said on january 6th, they hold people accountable and at any level, Merrick Garland is the judge when it comes to language. I know the speech was vetted in a lot of ways. At any level it is significant. To hold off on criticizing the doj. Thank you for being here. I thank all of you for attending. [applause] live sunday, november 6th on in depth from the texas book festival author and historian, president and ceo of the lbj foundation will be our guest talking about us president show history. 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