Conservation and Outdoor Recreation for the spokesman review which is washingtons second largest newspaper so hes a busy guy. His one place would bespokane washington. Despite his workload he has saved some of his writing energy to write a book about a phenomenon he was seeing something larger happening while he was reporting that her return of the wolf and has he covered for the paper i found the publics passionate response revealed a more complex story he followed to create this book. Hes joined by erica barry, the author of wolfish, a book that tries to understand our myths about wolves tracks rtone through the mountains of oregon. If you think of a good question during the conversation keep it, all on to it because hopefully we will have time for a question and answer and as you have noticed cspan is here ontonight so if you have questions wait for audio to put the microphone therefore you. Finally, afterwards eli will be up here to sign books for you so youre going to wind up here and be able to leave that way. Reminder we do close at 8 55 so lets welcome eli. [applause] thank you for coming, appreciate it n, great to be here and host this event in a great place to be reading a book i wrote. Im going to read a short section before it comes up. Like most born to this age nature is a distant amenity to me. I like to go hiking, skiing, hunting and even occasionally birdwatching but theres no urgency in my relationship with the natural world, no deep communion. My times outside our sojourns between the next sojourn and warm netflix series. A horse requires a different level of commitment. We were hiking and encouraging vegetation and we stopped often and i track his raven. Its hard work made harder by a son that burns through the morning clouds and left that air heavy with moisture. Curry describes horses and 1000 pounds third graders and treats them as such employing progressive discipline that would make the most conscientious parents look like fools o. An animal can toss me from his back before i could call her in surprise on the little lax with discipline. It turns out raven, like many handsome creatures used to skating bound good looks does not like to work out her bird is compared to care foolish reporters he likes toes eat. We take a few steps and then he stops. Bent his graceful neck andnd elbows boatright making the little kissing sounds or whateverit performs thanks raves attention as of a gun is gone off smooch, smooch ago. Raven just keeps on chowing down. A goes for several hours. Meeting often in heating my requests. 1000pound thirdgraders led me too live another day we turned around i breathe easier. Raven two is excited to go home and suddenly the lethargic pace he has maintained turns into an excited trot. He is leading away on his horses keeps raven from bolting altogether. Its quickly evidence ive lost what ever little control i had. Having that one particular steep hill raven guns that, it drags me through lowlying tree branches pretty squeeze my eyes shut, the branches whipping my pacesetter by myself i have medical insurance. Smooch, smooch. I was on curry the perfect picture of obedience. He is not happy. Fac scratched i am just pleased not to have been turned to the ground both raven needs to listen to you but you only listen if you he respects cheaper to respectct you need to trust you. A pulse of woody debris for my hair over the next hour we work on discipline walk the same section of trail over and over ask him to stop. He does not listen to nay which mostly doesnt ask him to back out. Silly raven gets the picture. This is important. We are out in the real mountains on treacherous terrain raven must obey otherwise raven might get hurt. Troy left the hill drops steeply 50 feet to raging creek jammed with logs which makes him wonder what trulyn treacherous terrain that looks like or youou might t hurt but slow frustrating work for both raven and me curry for his part teachers with extraordinary amount of patients. Raven cannot get the settle off, get raven cannot wait to get the saddle off, getth under the tarp and need some hay. Unfortunate for him the south the plan. Ab said we will rest for about an hour and head out again. Curious government crash course in horsemanship after all. For the end of our break room which i eat the rain return too. Raven is tethered to the horse trailer with a thick line of rope. I approach him to put his reins noon a job i have by now learned to do somewhat efficiently. First time try that thicker light retire in the back of his neck press or to place the reins on raven. I thick loop of stout rope that lays on sensitive snouts. He snorts, shakes his pretty head and backs up. The thick line of tides on the back of his neck rising up on his hind legs and confused before. Curry sense of the disturbance of the other side of the trailer and yells get away from them no need to say it twice. Room bucks again he starts to run. Will be a beautiful sight if i werent so worried about the hooves. Curry waste no time he felt raven not running but not exactly walking come on calm down. Raven worsegh of the camp briefy becoming entangled in the lines holding up and ripping himself free again. Curry follows. In the woods are so large hole. One of the old wells now full of trash. Curry gets a between raven and the deathtrap using stumps and smooches he pushes a set up animal away from camp and uphill due thicker brush and out of my sight. I am left float burying my mistake will hurt korea raven or both of them dared im soaking wet. My pants are torn, boot saga, this is not the kind of drama expected to find when i came looking for wolves. But not. Im so glad you read that portion. It is a really good advertiser for journalism i think. An advertisement for this book. You walk away with such a comprehensive understanding of how he got into where we are. And also looking at the future. But also it is joyful to read stories are. You are very much not writing that book but you are on the ground and we are with you in a way that such a compelling example of storytelling to thank you for this book break works really good to hear britt is hoping to make it engage. Its going to resonate with so many people excited to him this to the taxidermist, arrived from farcical uncle and my conservationist uncle which i think speaks the project of this book. I wrote a woeful book that came out in february. My publicist said theres someone else wrote another wolf book my First Response was like oh gosh, are there enough Wealth Effects to go around . And i have to say in reading your book i was jealous. I feel like this is a really a vital book. Is very full of wolf books and yet eliza wolf books takes its own territory there. I think about this book is a solution to the task forward you offer. The portraits we get of like daniel curry we t briefly lead o one meal a day among other details about his life. First i should ask, how are you feeling . It has been out a fewew weeks. We are talking little bit before this. Ive read this book so many times but even now and it reading it i think i dont want to read that again. Ive been over it so many times. I am thrilled other people are reading it and liking it. Quick school. I want to talk more about how you put together this book, reported that her goals with it how you ripple in resonate. People come and yell at you about your wolf reporting and you decide like going to leave this topic behind im going to write a whole book about it for quicksort for regional newspaper in eastern washington. I am in a city there we are covering original area thats quite rural mostly. Whenever i would write a wolft story or a newspaper story about wolveses often i would get flack from both sides which that means youre doing thebo right thing with people yelling at you, the summer in the middle there. Like that is a hard thing to realize that you kind of have to live without. And in the wolf topic in particular that just kept happening i felt i was missing some deeper story there that he wanted to get out. To do that and get the story as scheduled interview or a day with a biologist, a rancher, and a politician who is representing ranchers in that region. So we spent the day driving on the dusty Forest Service road like a hot august day. It was fine and i learned a lot of facts like you mentioned about wolves. It did not feel like there is any necessity there it was sitting in the truck looking up at the hills werewolves have once been. And towards the end of that day we came across this camp. I will never forget it. There were two horses tethered under the only spot of shade and attend to the blazing sun. We pull up on this guy all muscle from outdoor runs out of the tent to see who we are. He spent most of his youre basically out in the woods in northeast washington trying to keep wolves from attacking cattle. Ng hes not working directly for the ramp search hes working for a nonprofit. Io he struck me you could tell he had serious integrity he was on the ground during the work in the way i had not seen and living this very intense life. And like doing it, living that life. Just as the story, as a character i was hooked on him immediately wanted to get to know them better. That was sort of the beginning of this but that turned into a newspaper story then morphed into thiss book. I am curious what your process was like following him around and Building Trust and immersing yourself the way you did . Al ror journalism is funny. You spend a lot of time and tried to get to know them but youre not just hanging out with them. You are there to do a job. As very upfront with them right off the bat i want to write a story about you and the way i want to do is spend a lot of time witho you. But i need you to be okay with that thats quite a lot of access and daniel is a private guy. Use of the best subjects are stories are not promoting themselves. I had to explain and be really upfront with him i spent three years and i like him a lot we could be friends at a different scenario but i always had to remind him and myself i am doing a job here. My initial thing was to be very honest and veryo. Upfront about what we were trying to do and he responded well to that, he respected that. There are moments of a book where you disagree with daniel and you vocalize that. I think an example of how conflict exists in this book which is it does not need to be a breeze turned away from each other rex daniel is an idealist. He has been living this life or for10 years and he is very critl of how washington and other western states have handled Wolf Management. Even though if you look at the more rational invite numbers wait washington is doing pretty well in the broader Wolf Management world. We had some disagreements there. But it was never a blow up. Blowup. The beginning of thehe sectin you talk about your relationship with the outdoors and so many huts, someone who goes climbing. When is work on my wolf book people thought i must love it wolves or hate wolves try to understand people are so fascinated. Your particular identity help shape the b book how you interacted with the wilderness. I grew up in Northern Idaho on t the tail end of the Silver Valley which is a rich mining district from gold and whatnot. Its politically conservative area at my father is University Professor and my mother owns a yoga studio seo you could guess their policy. I kind of grew up it was sort of in two worlds in some ways. I think that, more than anything set the stage for how i think about the journalism i do what michael what this book was to try to understand polar opposites and arguments. And try to figure out where both sides are coming from and find htthat middle ground speed evenf you may not agree with him at the end of the day but at least listen. I think that really informed her growing up in that context. Yes it makes me think one of first reporting trips that i took and i had family that are livestock producers in some ways. I also lived in portland and i remember going to report in Eastern Oregon and someone said to wear flannel and dont say you are from portland. And also really far away and walk. And i am curious how you dealt with going into the situations where it is such a heated topic your reporting on worlds and people instantly and i dont know. What was that process like navigating again yes it came down to time spending the time. I talked to ranchers and talk to them right off the bat. I had to sort of prove to them i wasnt just flying in and flying out that it action wanted to understand and spend the time with them. I think that is the main thing. I found that most people if you give them that respect they will respond. Not everyone of course. Even if youre very different from them wanting to be listened to. So for the most part it was showing i was willing to put the time in and really listen to them. You appear in the book in a certain way short avatar for the reader or we can imagine that first seen you all heard were on the horse show the real challenges for Wolf Management. There is not a wolf and that seemed at first it was like this is a surprising first seen this not a wolf in the book about wolves but it is about the actual challenges of doingng th. It in a place like northeast washington or oregon youre most likely not going to see a wolf. I know people who live in a wolf country and want to see b wolves and have not seen when i was lucky enough to see one. So i think in a way its necessary to tell the story that way. The first chapter you have a line wolves and cite the kind of passion usually reserved for war and infidelity. Passions that highlight deep political and social divide. You do such a good job of overviewing how we got to this polarization points. But also what wolves and humans are like a species and why we are in competition potentially that social, cultural and somer, of these biological realities. This is a very large questions o answer however you want. Why art wolves and humans in a special relationship . It is a huge question pricks i heal people ask me and thats imm asking you at. [laughter] works maybe you can solve it. We coevolved we are both general species through our pack oriented rely on social connections to survive. Humans are not the strongest or fastest wolves are neither. But on paralleled pads just an evolution. N. Wolves could mess up your life particularly from a wolf attacking the sheeps like a big deal you could starve to death. Some of the case so much anymore. The cultural memory is still there. I so sing to something today from dannaa lopez he wrote a great book. He is talking about the fact we have domesticated dogs. They arett reflecting us back to ourselves in some way and this is maybe a little more philosophical we are seeing our relationship with this animal and our pet dog is not our pet dog it is a wild animal that has strong reactions on both sides great love and great hatred. There is an uncanny i thought that phrase you are either with us or against us. And this idea of the wolf is not the dog it doesnt care what we are doing by and large in that its hard for humans. Its hard to put aside their ego to face that. You mentioned being agnostic about wolves i could not understand the strong feelings either will let things a little i was driving on the forest on t service road early in the morning on this flash of movement running off the road so i jumped out the car walked down between these two roads there is a wolf may beat 100 yards downhill we made eye contact for a second or two but it felt a couple minutes. Thats a common denominator when people who have seen wolves they lose all track of time and proportion. At that. It was a strong connection we were staring at each other. Itin was kind of intense. My heart was going wolves are predators and they have their own wills and desires. Its not connected to what human ones in the and looks super similar to dogs and i i think tt triggers something. Phillipe talk a lot about the moment of eye contact its willing to say its bigger than we can understand it away. We started think about this is a book coming out of the pandemic. That speaks out to the reporting are doing but also the ways the wolf conversation has potentially changed to the last few years. Give a lot more urban folks moving out. We see political tides that areh everchanging. Give a great quote its clear the old model of coexistence, you live there, i live here will not work therere is no there anymore. Nono here. I amow wondering your perspectie on how to write this book at the last fewyo years how is the pandemic, to give a couple examples how that may be influence wolf conversation. I really got into the meat of this reporting for this book and writing like in june 2020 i think a sabbatical from my day job and work so book. The pandemic was still unknown the political dimensions are starting to come up on the new saw this thing generally speaking higherin income people were moving into rural areas and working remotely. Thats changing the dynamic. Theyre getting a lot of tension and generally speaking there is attention. N. That infused that wolf debate was a metaphor in some ways that was preexisting. There is a great quote wolves are just reflecting that felt super relative and true particularly that time. That miss anything under question there . Think that is so true. Makes me think of people i talked to say ranchers may be carried wolves but if you have people moving out and buying a ranch is gone out of business and subdividing it, suddenly youve got roads. Stars also harming wolf habitat in a way i was sort of interested. I not thought of the sides before. He talked about chronic wasting disease the relationship between that and covid19. Chronic wasting disease is a neurological disease that impacts deer and elk and moose. Its really i bad. It is similar to mad cow disease it is similar to that effect. And it can destroy it, it has destroyed deer population at different parts of the u. S. As the pandemic was happening isan ongoing concern for wildlie managers as trikes keep chronic waste disease rooms writing further west to present a Washington State yet i dont think its an organ. Anyway it is a Wildlife Disease that has some very clear pellet up to covid19. The whole body of research. A few studies and a lot to learn still wolves were quite good at controlling chronic waste abuse has been Interesting Research in montana or the wolves will select animals that are sick with cw even that they are asymptomatic. The question is how did they know that . Somehow they are reflecting this animals and killing them and that the natural buffer on them. Thats an obvious tide in parallel. What if you think about a said it came out of wisconsin the wolves in the road. It was something about the deer were afraid of the road because there are wolves inng your it ws causing far for your car fewer s and they calculated how much interesting their studies about the ripples you would think aboutin it. Anin washington. This is one of the reasons im book deals a lot with Washington States. It has a lot of relevance for other places like oregon, montana, and wyoming for instance. That is because washingtonit isa small state geographically. House like the second largest human population. Basically a full suite of native carnivores we have some grizzly bears. We got black bears, cougars, wolves. These animals are living very close to humans. We have never had this many humans but this c may predators just a month ago if they confirmed a wolf pack 45 minutes or my hometown is a very unique set up. What is going to happen in other western states its what is happening in idaho and wyoming there is more people moving there at the same time the research and carnivore populations. Some off the lessons we are learning in washington of how wolves interact with people but also other animals is very applicable to other western states. K but looking back to the last nosy pandemic question which is your reporting of this book. Theres one part you mentioned you met someone in a park and not inside. Potential because of covid. The reporting andnd storytelling curtailed in any way by Pandemic Research . Oxide plans to be in the field with daniel a bit more, the main character daniel. But we just couldnt make it work there is some of the tension came out like he knew i lived in a city and his like dont come out. Because he lives out in the country and sees thehe same thre people every month basically. It was very cautious that did change some of the on the ground reporting. We feel like we can soak a lot of juice we are on the snowmobile, youre looking at carcasses. You are on the horse. Getting thrown off the horse ind snowmobile sounds really good. [laughter] journalistic bingo. Theres some of the field of environmental storytelling and she said arguments had a chip in it, arguments great arguments, stories great conversations. I wasli thinking on the contextf the books of follicular beautiful storytelling joint portraits of how other people feel the wayu they do. There is also an argument and im wondering how you thought about that approach and how you sound mixing storytelling and potentially argument, are you comfortable . Yes and i hate to go back to the pandemic because it ties into that again. We have a set of facts. How we decide to interpret or use those facts is where we get all haywire with each other. Instead of trying to understand or are you coming from cosmic that is the goal i had hoped a rancher would read this k book d maybe not agree with everything that feel like he is trying to understand where i was coming from. On the flipside for an environmentalist is living in the city i want the wolves to be returned to the landscape. Landscape. I would hope they both feel seen and heard but not acknowledged taking onoints for the burden of coexistence in the way People Living in portland or spokane concept for how to coexist. What were going to do what theyve evolved to do which they see themselves. I would hope at least those two sides for correction of an audience in mind your writing toward heres whos in mind i want to change or open . Not in specific. Im thinking that the writing for a general layperson. It is curious what celt learn about the world in one particular topic. This book is such a good job you go one chapter the names of the people that portraits of people with different believes that we are on that journey with you. Winds to as reported change your mind for their moments when shifting my View Solutions for Wolf Management look like Going Forward . Single was a big deal for me. Was it contextualized by people cared so much. I think id started to understand that a little better those who judge when you just mentioned francisco that was a big moment as well. Francisco is a researcher and looking at wolves in particular and studying them from the perspective which is no space with a population of individual experience. Hisan whole point of their socil animals. If the management decision impacts individuals that could impact the group. Thats kind of a controversial thing. A flock of normal orthodox message. On the flipside he passed away two years ago i think. He was well respected. Edit long career move to Vancouver Island off the canadian coast. While in retirement wolves came back to the island he was living on he became fiercely anti wolf. His whole view it was wolves and humans could not coexist together. If they do wolves have to be severely, heavily managed and killed. That goes against mainstream l. I thought it was important character because he has own way was to get the issue from the perspective of the wolf. The animals are predators. They are not in respect what we humans want. The same has been used in court cases by ranchers. Was the best person to explain this other view of it. Hearing both of them talk about the issue from very different perspectives but in overlap we had to think about the actual animal and that change for me because i was used tohe thinking but about other populations and a big picture looking down with the more individual levels. I think that something ranchers, Indigenous People and others have rightly said you need to listen to what we are seeing on the ground and try to account for that in your scientific models. That did shift my thinking a little bit. The book does a beautiful job of bringing voices in conversation whether or not theyre talking in the real world they are talking in your book. It is a path forward. I was sort of thinking how you thought about that balance of the different voices with their voices i want to prioritize these viewpoints. Im worried this factions want to say a word too much on this one is such an issue to write about why first sgt reported someone so they knew a journalist or gotten death of gh threats for reporting on it and that was years ago. I did not get anything like that ofrecently. How you. It was nerve racking up points. Because at some point these sources or reading att this poit so we will see how they respond. I had to kind of forget about it and just move i forward. I noticed in the writing process felt bogged down think about how receive it going to and i could not get any traction if i only focus on that. Thats the best i could do. I think you do a wonderful job. And i wish i wouldve had your pep tops when i was writing. It also makes me think of the California Department of fish and wildlife wolf guy said to me if they get wolf issues are aware we see it as cultural fissures. It shows with the divides are for me thats also the point people surprisingly are coming together. You have examples in thiss book where people agreeing we disagree about this but we agree with this they talk about the hopeful moments of coming together. Does a lot of really good stuff happening in washington and elsewhere in the west around coexistence. It is happening with ranchers, they are invested in the land may be they care in a way some people would disagree with but they do care about that land. And they are starting to work with conservationists and others trying to figure out ways of coexisting that can be implemented on a landscape level parts of daniel is a range writer and his job is inherently random. Hes going out trying to keep wolves from killing cattle. Theres a study happening at this moment in western states looking at ways figure how range writing can be implemented in different settings effectively and not just have a random scattershot approach. That kind of stuff is continuing to happen. In aar way, the way we are argug about is an amazing b victory. The snow wolves in idaho or montana the first wolfpack in washington was 2008. Thatat is pretty hopeful. We have a lot of sad, bad, ecological news but wolves are doing prett well. They are making a comeback. Picture book is like the return ofex wolves. Sort of ironically and a cover this a little bit, they are doing well people are continuing to focus on them and ie wrote a book about them. There are other species doing much worse like in washington there on the edge of extinction. I would hope at least the passion people feel for wolves that need help as well. In so many ways that is a case study for so many things. And yet they specific to the wolf. You balance thatt well. Im going to ask you probably an obnoxious question. If you are the governor of washington, or heck, the president of the united states. [laughter] what wouldld you do for coexistence . Or if that is too hard what are the sort of solutions you talk about range writing as a way for you also talk about from the challenges i feel like there maybe some spellers i do not want to give away but the challenges of that i perspective. Some is coming to for advice what should we do . Works for site mandates the book at. [laughter] that will be the first step. A week ago i had a book in spokane my hometown. I got interviewed and daniel curry come up on stage the main character in this and it was great space audience q and a it was really fruitful. And he left that with another inpeoples phone numbers is one took them out into wolf country and introduce them to ranchers. This is like an urban place going to spend time with the ranchers i think thats a good start. Remember talking to some people the word coexist in a somewhat fraught. What is it mean . Are they just sharing the land and what does that mean too coexist and even asking those questions whether its between two species are two types of humans built fruitful as you say put them in philosophically useful for where we are at. Even just trying to dialogue on that is important. Is challenging. We are going to ask questions and a minutes appear to have a whole slate i will keep asking if you dont have them. So think for a minutes. I guess one question i would just ask right off the bat before that, you reported on this for how many years . I have covered like a wolf news for four or five years, five years now. I started working on this book in 2019 essentially. It reads really quickly there condensed in a way that you could have written a seven or page wolf book on this im wonderingts what scenes, characters or moments that were not in this book . Was passed my deadline which was pushed already at. [laughter] this last summer i was in alaska for a month it was just amazing is an Arctic Circle far north it was inn a place 340 miles to the nearest road at most points completely not human adapted. I saw wolves. That like added another puzzle piece of this is what looks like without humans more or less. That is not what washington most of the continental u. S. Is like. You cannot just take lessons from their and apply them here. That could fit into its to get that more like the humans out of the equation, what does that look like . I think that would have been one. That is fascinating reading those of you in oregon who compare and contrast their deep similarities. Its a lot of what we know about and have known about wolves and so exciting right now in the world of wolf research. What we knew came from places like yellowstone or alaska these places where theres not a lot oft humans and there is theres environment for wolves. Oregon and washington is a very different situation so how wolvesun live and interact aroud people we are still learning new stuff every month basically on how that looks at. So it is pretty exciting. Yes it is. Speaking of exciting times does anyone have any questions . We are going to wait. The boom is coming perfect. Personal youre right thank you very much read and a great book about important subjects but especially here in the west. And so a couple questions in the passage you read this now we are expecting when you look for wolves. I am curious what were you expecting when you went to look for wolves . And how is your thinking a challenge in this process . The second question is that daniel curry we talk about people who can be a bridge identified strewed necessarily he can clearly travel in different worlds. And be of assistance. It seems like we could use more people and i am wondering where they coming from . Yes i guess ill start g tha. Daniel is impressive he is able switch between the different worlds. His connection and wait with animals ive never met anyone like itt before. Hes got a Spiritual Connection with animals, wolves in particular you dont want to talk about that generally speaking and ranch country thats not like how people think imabout animals. But daniel is respected there for the most part because he knows how to work with animals but some like atl gentle version of that like he understands what it means to work with a horse for instance and thats what that passage. And then in terms of i dont know where you get more people like daniel curry honestly he is so passionate about a sacrifice of time and his personalhe lifee is professionally broke. It is a tough life for you got to find someone who really cares i guess. And then in terms of what i was expecting i think i had an image and a lot off people do weird we sort of used to seeing a wildlife and a geo lens look at the wolf running across the plane and those kind of images take hundreds of hours to get and second of all are usually in a yellowstone type area where there are wide open views. Most of the places wolves are living in the west are not like that they are forced hilly country. Its much less accessible in the wolf is a main character fran and a lot less visible is like seeing scats or tracks. I have this image howling out wolves, seeingg them and it will be really cool. And i cannot see 10 feet in front of me. It was more like that. Great questions. I think theres one more up here. I was just wondering, he said at the beginning you are a hunter. How do you relate the idea of being a hunter of conservation . How do you personally go around that environmental work from a perspective some people might not think of . Are very bad hunters. Very unsuccessful. I think aside from the history of conservation in the u. S. But more on a personal level hunting gives you the immediacy. Hunters i know are in tune with whats happening in the air an elf and Wolf Population in their backyard or the favorite huntinh areas and ways professional biologist struggled to be because they are thinking about it a lotot more. They just really care its back to the question about the passion. They are very passionate about it. You can go too far but ethical and thoughtful hunters most of them i have met are. They care and are engaged and committed in a way both monetarily and with their time people that dont hunt arndt. I am just kind of curious how big of a toll or wolves really taking out ranchers . Theres a rabid anti wolf sentiment. Is it justified by a couple hundred wolves in washington theres hundreds of thousands of head oflebl cattle. Most of these guys on public lands if their cattle gets taken by it wolf they are compensated by the government. Art wolves because in that big of a problem . Are they taking a huge toll that justifies the rabid anti wolf sentiment . No i dont to give you look at the numbers you cannot argue. Ive asked ranchers this the best answers to parts basically. So confirmed wolf killings are small but there is some Research Showing having wolves around increases the stress on the cattle which leads to more miscarriages and lower weight which embodies more overall weight on the cattle which impacts sales price. So that is part of the argument but the broader point is that thesetype of ranchers small geny familyt owned ranches are on te offensive for years. They are consolidated meat packing and politicss come into it and labeling laws and everything else. They are sort of watching a wayg of life they are very invested investedin get harder and harde. The ranchers i have talked to said wolves is just like one more thing, one more addition to this you cannot really blame make the wolves are not really the cause but they are an easy scapegoat. Thanks. Weve got a question in the back will wait a minute. Cant wait to read your book. You mention about how wolves can help control deer and elk. The impact ranchers and how have theyey impacted i have not rd your books if you talked about this. How had they impacted other endangered species like caribou that for example how to get removed at a state of washington after having a small comeback very. It is a great question. So, for those dont know mountain caribou there was a herd that would occasionally come into the lower 48 from stcanada into idaho in eastern washington. Canadian biologist airlifted them out in 2019 further north because theres like three left in the herd and they were on the brink. And in canada it was quite controversial biologist have been killing wolves to buy caribou some time because wolves hunt them. Its a very controversial saying. So they do have an impact. The broader issue is not the wolves fault its Climate Change and logging are really impacting them. The argument thereby killing wolves and suppressing their numbers buys caribou some time. So there is one impact. And washingtonin specifically endangered species and a washington and oregon i dont think it is a direct connection butme wolves do suck up a lot of time, energy, and money. So in Washington State is one fulltime biologist on theres like 50 left. We have like 10 or wolf biologist 230 wolves and they are growing every year like that population. So there is an impact eight secondary impact there. I think one other thing i did want to mentio this is back to where we are learning so much about wolves and how they interact and adaptive landscapes urban Interesting Research about how wolves controlling coyote populations in washington. And that is one area it ranchers are probably pretty happy because coyotes can get out of controlli and humans we are terrible att controlling them they just keep going there really cool animals. But wolves kind of suppress that population at least with initial research. Any other last questions or i can ask the last one . Okay. I am curious and again this is a question i hate getting asked. Are you interested in another animal now . Did the wolf make you interested in some other animal related issue . What isti the story thats gettg your attention now . Are you still know wolf beat . Honestly writing this book is mostly interested in the human side of it. They are such a bizarre species. I think it might next animal will be humans. [laughter] i didnt realize this book has wolf biology and it does touch on that but is mostly about humans and he talked any wildlife biologist they said the animal in question is usually the easy part its the human that takes the work. I think thats what i want to focus most of. It makes meif think it should be on the human shelf as well. I do think it really tells us a lot about how people converse and struggle and try and are skeptical of each other. And also are willing to extend the olive branch to the whole spectrum. We are just about done. E i think the last thing for people who arent going to read this book is there one everyone here is reading it. We need to talk about this event to everyone else is there a bullet point sort of thing you want people for to get permits as someone who maybe is not thought about wolves in this interconnected landscape away . Yes. I guess a bullet point would be it is cliche but to listen more to try to understand and any conflict any argument to try to understand why the person you disagree with this making the ie argument they are making. You do not have to revert to fax you do not cross that to each other ande understand how they think and why they think that way. I think we would all do better to do more of that. If young gotten the pricing responses judge of the book or responses that have been people listening to that think that you thought might not be listening . I did get a note from a ranching source they said they liked it. And i was sort of shocked but i amck