Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion Focuses On School Finance 20170215

And so that sets of children to not have the resources they need to pass the benchmarks for proficiencies that are established in state standards so that is another challenge. There is low funding we can talk about about you and day so even if it is low funding, not providing great sources. And finally insufficient oversight of state funding, what does that mean . We dont have enough oversight of the system to make sure the money we are putting in is being spent efficiently and that is important as well, not just we have additional money for low income children but are we spending that money wisely to get the results we need. A number of weaknesses in the School Funding system, how my argument, the rodriguez case, it was a case in 1973 by the Supreme Court. It was bought by a Mexican American family that said the low funding we were seeing in the district violates the United States constitution and equal protection clause. And their rights were being violated by the low funding they got and the opportunities that were different. The Supreme Court rejected the argument and that the constitution does not guarantee a right to education and instead this was an issue that should be left to the state and local control and we must allow states to work on this issue even as the Supreme Court said we acknowledge significant any quality, and as Mister Robinson referenced, it does matter for education and who should answer that question . The court acknowledged they were at play, did not want a federal takeover of the state funding system saying we wont upset the federal state balance. What has happened . 40 years later, there has been progress from School Funding, school vetting is more up there than they were when the rodriguez litigation was brought. And theres a lot of funding that says we need to address how those kids get it and because of that we have no way to make sure states will move in the direction of providing more affordable funding. And at harvard law school, a book about the rodriguez case, what happened when you close the federal courthouse doors for funding litigation and what happened is the state court has not been an effective mechanism for making sure all kids get the resources they need to achieve so in my book we spent two thirds of the book, what can we do about that as a nation and multiple solutions are included there and some are state and local solutions, i will talk about one of them that i left and so that is particularly important here, think about reshaping our understanding of education, what does that mean . We have a deeply entrenched view of American Society, state and local control of paramount value. We have sacrificed generations of children at the altar of state and local control. That is more important than children getting a great education and need to make sure the state and local government. And we also need not be afraid of what the federal government brings whether it is additional funding, research assistance, technical assistance, the federal government has a lot of resources, if we werent so afraid of having them have greater involvement in education. And state serve as the mechanism for innovation and experimentation. We need to understand education, federalism. And what were not so and i will yield to Mister Robinson. Next speaker is David Hinojosa with the intercoastal Development Research association and one of the best experts in School Finance and all students particularly hispanic students and most recently he was involved in the School Finance case in texas but what is interesting is he made a commitment with his work. A graduate of Edgewood High School which was part of that dialogue, and i want to welcome david. His first time, glad to have you. Allowing us this opportunity to go all the way from texas to chile, windy, dc. Go down to texas and you will see how much warmer it is there today. What i want to start out with is something people always seem to say, that education is the great equalizer. People can look at me as a graduate of Edgewood High School in san antonio, texas and say you may see education is the great equalizer. School finance systems, fair School Finances, do not build exceptions and while i am an exception i am not exceptional. There is nothing special about me, how and why i did this, and my sister was pregnant 16 years old and trying to graduate from an Edgewood Independent School district as well. The reason i say that is this notion of education being the great equalizer, when you look at how in equitably our schools are funded in the state and across the country and the slideshow kimberly showed, for the most part most of the states across the country dont have fair, equitable funding system this. Im not going to say funding is the full solution, the only solution, of course not. We need highquality teachers, teachers who cannot just teach students but reach and teach. And the system allows the competition we talk about in rhetoric, cant expect students from some School District to compete with other students in other School Districts when provided inadequately prepared schoolteachers, the state and federal governments pushing temporary faculty agencies to provide relief for a couple years before those teachers when you divorce the funding System Research and policy, it restarted in 1973 right after the Supreme Court decision in the rodriguez case, our founder said there needs to be some policy organization that conducts analysis, collect data, to support better policy reform. So it started testified as an expert, a superintendence, and what the problems were in the policy it was impacting the classrooms so trying to say students should achieve their full potential, that is great. At pull themselves up by the bootstraps when some kids dont wear boots and some kids dont want to wear boots. That is something that is effecting and impacting children all across america. And School Funding itself, and the action framework to talk about changed levers, and a very main construct in that framework. And when you look at the Current System across the country, with the research base. We know that the Research Says that highquality can make a big difference in the children of underserved children. We know small class sizes, not 25 kids in a classroom, they say class size doesnt matter, those are people who have never taught in the classroom. Economists say 22, 25, 27 kids in the classroom doesnt really matter. Ask a schoolteacher. It is not just about the performance on standardized tests, how those kids are gauged and what their life comes out like but it is also about other actions and how those teachers are able to connect with students beyond circling in a bubble on the standardized test. And it bases the School System on property taxes, we cut out 1022 School Districts, plus 200 something Charter Schools, 1022 School Districts, we look at the wealthiest versus the poorest, 1 million gap, and the basic allotment at this level and then have golden pennies and copper pennies, all created at political whims. The job is to equalize this. And the wealthiest and poor School District and look at the demographics, the you find a lot more children of color over 90 versus the wealthiest district in texas. And and didnt graduate, got a ged, and the market crashed. And moved to clear creek schools, eighth or ninth highest tier there. Her with a student who graduated from high school and the child just entering the prek system, she saw the night and day difference going from pasadena to low wealth community, and clear creek schools, extending tutoring programs. And when the market crashed as it did, she got divorced, moved to a one bedroom trailer in pasadena, and take people to school, and wanted copies, did not take textbooks homes, or remediation classes, all of these advantages, and were absent here. It sure does make a big difference. And in the high wealth communities and the same standards as kids who donate money, senior action students in the valley in texas. We dont want them held to a lesser standard. That real meaningful fair opportunity. And we have an opportunity to impact, they should not be overly intrusive. And 10 of funding, it provides fair and equable school 9 finance policy. We have a provision in the succeeds act that speaks of resource equity. And schools that are being intervened into not meaning state standards, but what about the system altogether . On the front end rather than on the back end. The states should change this paradigm. And marketbased reform that we heard about. It might not be popular to see that but can marketbased reform not lead to improved Educational Opportunities. It is not lead to improved learning opportunities, it improves earnings and private corporations, and improved salary toward administrators heading nonprofits organizations heading some of these Charter Schools. Has not lead to improved learning and opportunity and the best way to strengthen Public Schools but strengthen Public Schools, thank you. Thank you. And speakers, watching through cspan or live, go to hashtag School Finance. Feel free to send a question and time, and the third speaker, sutherland, dedicated his career to civil rights with particular focus on School Finance. And School Finance which he will discuss and an opportunity to see this from the school aspect, and how to make a big difference. A graduate of the university of Michigan School of law and glad to have you here. I was hoping for some applause. [applause] a strange thing for litigator to talk about, how to improve schools without endless litigation, i just finished a lengthy litigation in the state of florida and i want to talk about what florida has done to improve its schools in an extraordinary way. 7 million students, half of the students are minorities, 55 are free or reduced lunch students, very diverse state and we can learn a great deal as i have over the last few years with the state. In 1998 voters in florida approved an amendment to the constitution that provided students were entitled to a high quality education, the state will make adequate provision for that. In response to that constitutional amendment, governor jeb bush, Lieutenant Governor frank brogan introduced a series of reforms called a plus plan for education. Major components of that plan were high standards for all students, all students. This was before no child left behind was one of the innovations, high standards, we will test students against those standards and report to the public how all students are doing aggravated by race or free and reduced lunch status and lots of people see that and that is the innovation, we see it is commonplace, it was a big deal in 1998 so a report on how kids are doing and grade our schools a through f. Understand what that means, and School Districts. And we give parents and families an opportunity to leave schools that are not successful. If youre at a Failing School you can leave that school to go to a better Public School and at the time a voucher to go to a private School Struck down by the florida Supreme Court. In florida has been committed over the years to a substantial choice in competition, and lead to remarkable improvement. The other thing florida focused on and a lot of this discussion improving schools isnt rocket science, it is focused on early reading, that is the key. And literacy by grade 3. By grade 3 the children have demonstrated through offenses that they are reading at a certain level instead of going on to grade 4 is the gateway year. Incentives for school to offer highquality rigorous education and high schools and advanced placement courses, International Baccalaureate courses not just for kids in the house is in san antonio, all the communities in florida including the rural poverty areas of the panhandle including the urban centers in miami and other places in florida, and proponents have been extraordinary. The data we got the trial of the kids which we finished in march, florida back before the amendment was passed in 98 had a terrible graduation rate, 50 of all kids, disaggregated which i show you in the next slide for minority kids as well as 50 and this was under a pretty minimal set of graduation requirements. Overtime improved radically, over 25 points, not where the state wants it to be but requirements are much higher today in 201415, then they were in 98 and yet we see a much better performance result. What about the achievement gap . Obviously we have an achievement gap throughout the country. And 98, earliest behavior 34, the gap between white and hispanic was 11 points by 20 points graduation rate, that has narrowed, substantially narrowed over 20 years or 15 years that are displayed here and more work is to be done. Next slide. 98 before the amendment, florida was in the bottom states in fourth grade reading 1998. By 2015, florida is in the top 10 of states on fourth grade reading and the next slide that came from one of our experts on the case. What is interesting about this slide is it talks about the question of what is the role of money in student performance, how do we spend money in Public Schools today, which is the best indicator how we will spend it in the future so when we talk about Money Matters of course Money Matters, we have to have buildings and textbooks but the question is judicially enforced and required additional money does it matter . Lets look at where florida stands on this chart. The horizontal access is increased dollars, from 1990 to 2009. We see great variation across the country in increased expenditure per student during this period in real terms. To the right like new york, both of those dates have very extensive judicial involvement and intervention, which drove money into the schools. We have florida which has not been judicial intervention. And modest increases in real terms in terms of spending. In terms of nate performance and test scores, improving their skills, florida is among the top states in the nation on improvement. This chart to my mind is one of the key elements of this Public Policy debate. It is the most effective way of doing what we want. One of the things we talked about is very important to empathize. What role can courts have and i would submit to you, doing things that are simple like mutual spends more money. They are also good at improving schools, making the better for children, and although we talk about politics, the democratic process. People debate ideas, study them and trial and error, and that is what florida has done, remarkably consistent Public Policy in their schools in 20 years. This chart, the bottom part of the chart talks about where new york and florida were on tape. 199220022013. You see it consistent with other charts, in 92 florida was well behind where new york state was on fourth grade reading, well behind. By 2002 they are still well behind but by 2013 new york is behind and florida is ahead because florida improved. Florida and new york are similar states in free and reduced lunch students around 55 , and 50 , similar states. In terms of dollars which is the upper part of the chart, what happened consistent with earlier charts, very modest increases in real terms if spending. And for fiscal equity in 20072008 billions of additional dollars where the court order is. And consistent sound Public Policy, can be and is more effective than judicially enforced solutions. And do we think of what improved schools. And the Education Law Center and professor robinson showed earlier, one of their people is an Expert Witness for the plaintiff. And reading this study carefully. And over 90 of the students on free and reduced lunch, the far righthand side. They spent 20 more per student than in the schools with the least amount of kids and poverty, this is state, local and federal and federal is title i but if you were to do this, state and local similar thing, 20 more dollars in the schools with high numbers, and i bring glad tidings with sunshine state, a great state to look at in terms of Public Policy success without judicial intervention. [applause] fourth and last speaker is jim kelly iii, an attorney in atlanta, georgia. He is involved in School Finance but in different ways. He is in education opportunity and a believer that schools matter. There is also a role to take a look at finance in Public Schools and acrosstheboard. She will speak to us at the university of georgia. Big 12 and big 10 and a few other places along the way. When he is finished i will join him on stage for conversation. Good morning. Thank you, Gerard Robinson and American Enterprise institute for inviting me to participate in this forum. It is a pleasure and honor to be with you today. Please permit me to make clear the views i will be expressing today are my personal ones and do not represent the opinions or positions of the Federalist Society for law and Public Policy studies. To start i commend my fellow panelists, kimberly robinson, for her standing to the cause of equal access to an excellent education for all children. Kimberlys writings are generating important discussions and debates like this one today about the nature and funding of k12 education in america and the proper role of local, state and federal governments in promoting equal access to education. In a recent book chapter kimberly defines equal access to an excellent education as, quote, the opportunity for all students to attend highquality school that enables them to effectively pursue their life goals to become engaged citizens and develop their abilities to their full potential and in essence this views the right to education as a fundamental one, a bill the Supreme Court rejected in the rodriguez case. By reason of the u. S. Constitution not recognizing it as a fundamental right. Yet kimberlys vision of access to excellent education extended beyond the fundamental right of education. In her view, quote, this recognizes Educational Opportunities should be tailored to meet the individual needs of students that may vary dramatically depending on a variety of factors including Family Structure and stability, Students Health and nutrition and neighborhood climate. Under this view equal access to an excellent education includes not only the fundamental right to education but consideration of the fundamental right to work, fair wages, food, housing, physical and Mental Health and clean and safe environment. To a significant extent this is consistent with a recent assertion by education reform leader Howard Fuller that, quote, education reform must be considered part of a larger struggle for social justice and in doctor fullers opinion it must transcend the schoolhouse and improve laws, policies and practices that interfere with the education process like childhood hunger, neglect, living wage jobs for families and students, Police Brutality against young black men and more black empowerment in the education reform movement. No doubt this social justice approach to education reform is the subject of future dialogue, debate and legislative and legal battles. The social justice approach will impact kimberlys call for restructuring and strengthening education in a manner that will require shifting some power away from state and local government toward the federal government. On its own a proposed reconstruction of education is a task from with constitutional, policy and financial challenges but when the scope of reconstructing federalism expands to include utilization of many economic and social rights essential to achieving social justice the implications for democracy, role of government and state and National Budgets are complex and far reaching ones. It is important to consider the nature, practical aspects and costs of social justice education reform agenda it will be important to do so in a manner that respective democratic evolution democratic evolution is marked by the articulation of philosophical views about social order like social justice that over time is embraced by political leaders and government officials and the general public as philosophical ideas are debated among citizens and private and in the political process, listen to identifiable value systems. Because being value systems relate to the human person in society they have become known as humanist which courts are called upon to determine to put piety or limits of each new humanist value system. These Court Battles establish a framework for further social evolution. The restructuring and strengthening of the federal role in education and pursuit of social justice education reform agenda must not shortcircuit the democratic evolution that has been at the heart of the american experiment. As a result of federalism and promotion and protection of civil and Political Rights democratic evolution has resulted in the following 12 humanist phases and educated related catchphrases. Deistic humanism which is based on the idea there is one god responsible for creating a human person vested with certain inalienable rights and duties, controlling education that moral education, next civic humanism which is based on the idea social order is rooted in a love of country and values that encourage sacrifice on behalf of the common good. Controlling education means melting pot. Social humanism based on the idea that improvement in the lives of the lowest and most numerous class of citizens depends on abilities, education, training and work of an elite intellectual and Creative Class of individuals, controlling education is educating the whole child. Scientific humanism which is based on the idea that social order depends on application of evidencebased scientific principles to the problems of Human Development and social life. Controlling education means no child left behind and every Student Succeeds. Trans humanism is based on the idea that technology can be used to overcome biological limitations of man and improve the human condition, controlling education meme is educational enhancement. Secular humanism is based on the idea that traditional religious beliefs and practices cannot be used as the basis of morality and decisionmaking. Separation of church and state. Ethical humanism is based on the idea humans require a nontheistic moral and ethical value system on which they can rely in order to bring justice and peace to the world, controlling education meme is character education. Democratic humanism is based on the idea that positive Human Development can only be achieved through the free exercise of civil and Political Rights, controlling education meme is education for democratic citizenship and human rights education. Evolutionary humanism, the idea that each person has the right to define ones own concept of existence of meaning, the universe and the mystery of human life. Controlling education meme is the right to privacy. And trickle humanism based on the idea of the human person consists of supernatural and temporal elements and the persons faith is an integral part of all aspects of his or her daily life, controlling education meme is education for freedom. Political humanism is based on the idea elected officials should exercise their power and Regulatory Authority to achieve equal access to Human Security and if necessary Wealth Redistribution is the controlling education meme is social justice. Finally creative humanism which is based on the idea that the practice of the Christian Faith and christian values has a positive restorative impact on democratic societies, controlling meme is religious freedom. Each humanist system erodes a specific perceived cultural shortcoming of the prior humanist period. Innocence each system represented an effort to create the ideal social order and thereby promote the happiness of citizens. In the rodriguez case, us Supreme Court recognized that absent a right to education contained in the u. S. Constitution, legislators accountable to their constituents are responsible for addressing the extent of a right to education, not an elected the court chose not to refer to the International Covenant on economic social and cultural rights as a supranational basis for recognizing a fundamental right to education. The Court Decision in rodriguez, federalism, separation of powers, democratic evolution, National Sovereignty and rule of law. Thank you very much. Thank you, jim. Four speakers, same topic, different approaches, he will do a deeper dive as a panel and look at a few questions. And open up for and and all about money and a few other things. And what recommendation would you give to others to think about . Every Student Succeeds act with much legislation given to you, there are some potential advances, seems to dear away from highly punitive, highly prescriptive interventions defined under no child left behind, so that power will be returned to the states. States might end up continuing that punitive paradigm. What exactly states i going to do, how are states going to analyze resource equity for schools under intervention so if you have a School District subject to intervention, looking at the various factors, they look at resource equity, what does that mean . Federal government has provided some guidance whether or not that guidance will disappear under the administration, in terms of School Finance and School Funding opportunity. There arent any real advances that will be realized, that will be an issue with respect to accountability. The ratings being engaged in florida with the a to f grading system and some at the National Level want it, and others still have Improvement Required in more general categories like that, should focus on supporting with Educational Opportunities, rather than punishing school in spite of the inequalities and opportunities. It could go 50 ways from now. Something as important as schools. And things we have in our lives. And there is skepticism about the school board level. Even within a School District, we dont want the Central Office telling us what to do. When we talk about local control is a pejorative you think of your own children and your own school, you get it, you care about not only your own but your kids classroom, i understand that emotional attachment and a reason for it. I am skeptical at the federal level, anything good is going to come out of it. Every Student Succeeds act has moved towards less accountability, and that is precisely what adults of the system want. One of the things about florida i am impressed with is the consistency of the Public Policy intervention. One problem with education i found over the years is it changes every few years, the approach changes, policy changes and i see that federally with no child left behind in place for a number of years and the saying in schools was this too shall pass. This will change and eventually back away from high levels of accountability and that is where i see federal law going but notwithstanding that you got to focus on what is happening in state and school boards, that is where reform happens. Kimberly, david and Rocco Testani come in your presentation you talked about local government and state. You want to see a federal partnership. How did this workout . What is interesting about this, we have a lot of talk during reauthorization, returning control to state and local governments and in the classroom. I think there is some truth to that and the punitive mechanisms, no child left behind, were not the ones that incentivize change. When you remove all accountability from the states, what is interesting is notice they kept a provision that says performing schools, you must make sure you have a plan to turn around these local school and why do they keep that with federal accountability. Why didnt they return slowly. They did that because the states consistently neglect the performance of the least among us. Low income communities wracked the power at the state level to lobby for the chance that they need. Often left behind in School Reform or have tinkering at the margins. They talked about florida giving 20 more to the lowest income districts. Research shows for students that continue on the same level, we need to be giving them 40 more. The challenge with that model moving forward is even when you give them a little more the challenge of poverty concentrated poverty are so sensitive it is a substantial increase that you need, 40 to compete with their middle and compare and the question of whether Money Matters with research, one of the main proponents of money doesnt matter, money spent well matters quite a bit. What we have in 2016, with numerous associates who found a 10 increase in funding for all this is a national database. Florida has done great things and they were one of the states, who keeps track of where the money is going and was most commendable, they spend their money wisely. They keep track of where it goes and an increase even when it is modest strategically. And a substantial decrease in adult poverty. And lowering of the achievement gap and Research Shows with 12 years of schooling and the more significant increase at 25 , that can help to close the achievement gap and so no, it is not just about money. It is about quality teachers, effective afterschool programs. Things cost money and when you look at what the disparities are, it is not the only answer. Money spent well in childrens lives can make a big difference and states are not doing a job of getting what they need. That is what we want for all our children. It should not be just for our children. You opened up by putting education in the context of what education means and what it means to be an educated person. There are things you can do in the Education Sector that is traditionally public but also you supported work outside traditional Public Schools. Kimberly mentioned we should focus on serving students that have done a great job in the public and private sector to help with the issue of funding and opportunity. There absolutely is and i have able to be part of the creation of a Tax Credit Scholarship Program in georgia called the goal Scholarship Program and providing parents with a choice in education. When we talk about different viewpoints everyone brings to the debate and democracy over the right to education it is important for all of us to avoid absolutes. In the public square, no role for the federal government and education, i dont believe that. There is a role for partnership, the extent of that partnership i dont know. There is a role for a fight between david and Rocco Testani over how much money is enough. I would never say you can throw too much money at Public Schools, dangerous to say they get too much money without knowing the facts. I will say this about in some ways questioning the role of nonprofits and those toiling away and trying to bring choice and education, someone who works daily in that field and started an organization and knows a great many people in nonprofits trying to provide choice in education, there is a large sentiment toward doing the best things in the best interests of the childs part and if we could avoid this letter fall have diminished pursue the right to education and litigate it. You both have a chapter in the book, interested in knowing why at this time write about opportunity and talk to us about why you decided to write about this. Lets talk about this, in part because i think we have gotten complaints, the system of have and have not lose i wanted to focus on what to do about that. Either state or federal in addressing these issues. And moving this agenda forward, that was the impetus to the book to take a look at these issues. The chapter that i wrote was on rodriguez, where we are and where we are and where where we yesterday and over the years what the challenges were back then, started with protest from students who walked out of schools because they wanted more rigorous courses and access to certified teachers and to be able to graduate and go on to college and many of these things that still exist in one way or another today. What it does show is because the policymakers were not doing their job or abiding by their own constitutional mandate as opposed to the u. S. Constitution, they took it to the court in the 1980s welcoming district, people talk about how much Money Matters. Whether or not they share their resources, they probably do not want to share their resources because they earned it, nothing about sustained privilege born into an unequal uncompetitive era we had 50 to 60 years ago but as you move forward and feel the case in 1999 where the court said children in property poor districts and wealthy districts have a constitutional right and equal funding. Equal doesnt mean equitable and the court has, over time, kind of water down the standards. In the 1980s, if you are texting similarly, revenue for similar very fair standard. Then they came back and said we had 95 in the system so that is fair. 100 of those students equalize and and cut it down to a 600 gap with wealth and property, that is enough. You talk to School Districts, 600 more per student, and with school size of 1000 and goes on and on and you can see how much that makes a difference but the point is they help the legislatures feet to the fire, they didnt say how much you have to come here is how much to distribute, you leave that to the courts but that was still available. What happened in the most recent case we tried with 5000 exhibits, three months of testimony, they put up we put out experts on our side showing the canvas case, texas was ranked 28th and in the texas case, Something Like that using the same data. At the end of the day a substantial record just showing Educational Opportunities, putting differences aside, one of the opportunities between the School Districts. The court rewarded that, basically said the polling said poor people come with these disadvantages. And an incredible record of how much it does, to teachers and School District leaders. And constitutional floor, adequate education means into the basement. So now what is the public left within this democracy with the same policymakers. In the 1960s not as equitable as it was in 1989 but still between the wealthiest and poor. Rocco testani, ideas and comments . He is one of the leading authorities on this, it is a mixed bag on this, 70 or 80 on teacher pay. Because of teacher organizations, with two major things, advanced degree and years of experience, not shown to be good indicators of the teachers effectiveness. Exactly how the structure is. Spending money wisely, everyone is in agreement it takes money. And spending money wisely, thinking about benefits, opening up the profession in ways we dont have one model. And smart kids can come out of college and other programs like that can be effective teachers and you dont have to go to a set program, the barriers for education, my daughter is studying to be a teacher, and and math and science not encouraged to go down that track. The other being with social science on this completed their review of the School Improvement grant, 3 billion program under the Obama Administration and several hundred schools, showed no effect. This idea that here we are in 2017, we just know that or money in schools will magically produce better results. It doesnt happen again and time and again, whether the School Improvement Grant Program and any other, new york, billions more, dont get better. I raised the question, when we see what happens, what is going on, not stealing money into the issue to improve schools. It like these esteemed panelists who are experts in School Funding and School Finance i have not but there is one piece of School Funding information i am aware of and that is torture the state spends 4200 to educate a child in the public School System is. Every year we have 10,000 parents applying to our Scholarship Organization asking for one of our scholarship to send their child to the school of their choice and we wait for the litigation to be settled or the Supreme Court taking up how much you are entitled to when you get to Public Schools, and they need to move on, the scholarship amount is 3600, and fight about true cost savings coming in hard and fast, we are saving state money. And always keep the option open not only talking about appropriate level of funding for kids to Public Schools but for those parents, i decide enough is enough, and courts of law, they need an opportunity and many states are providing them with that. With that i open up to the audience. There are two things they ask, speak your name and organization and ask a question and not make a speech. I will start here. We have a mic coming your way. For those watching cspan, hashtag School Finance, we have questions. Im with the National Council of teachers of english, there is talk of 20 billion in transfer to voucher programs. We know where the money will come from and how it will impact judicial Public Schools. One person or the panel as a whole. I dont know where the money will come from in the pockets of the 4. Of some people get their way, one thing i do want to mention about the School Choice debates, what it really is the School Choice. It is not School Choice for the parent, only the schools choice, the 7 inch Teacher Foundation has data from the georgia opportunity scholarship and it shows funds that are primarily going to certain families that you would expect with one small little it is basically helping to subsidize private school for bid and hire well families. The same thing happens in indiana where Vice President hens authored legislation that would expand vouchers across the state and families taking advantage of that. Then all the sudden we shift the conversation to say we want them to have a choice. If its her choice to go to her local neighborhood school, why should that local school be provided with the resources to meet her childrens needs . At the end of the day thats what we really want to focus policymakers attention on and not allow them to scapegoat. In texas we went from 200 million Charter Schools to 2 billion, 10 years later for charter school. Charter schools in texas have much higher, theres a more higher percentage of Charter Schools in texas that have the most ratings and im not saying ratings mean everything but if you look at those rates compared to traditional public School Districts. We know Charter Schools often tend to segregate students of more that are already segregated in Public Schools. So why and how, how can we be even discussing this issue of lets put 20 billion into this unproven system just because our starved Public Schools are not performing the way that we think they should is just a little beyond me. I will say in florida we have a Florida Tax Credit Program in that state and it is been studied extensively as part of the legislation to look at every you how its doing. The student to participate on low income, in fact, as they are children who are doing as well or better than students who have similar socioeconomic status and remain in a Public Schools. Its an option. Its not the only option. Its an option. Do i think it is worth experimenting dating where our National Performance levels are . Yes. Well, i like to think of myself as a glass halffull kind of guy. Im not sure many people close to me would say that, but when im in this type of discussion which is rarely its close to mine. Im ready to convey to the proponents of four equal School Funding better education, youre right, we need to take a very close look at what is proper level of School Funding . How do we get to schools and how do we make that difference . They really dont know what kind of schools to pick and most of the schools in the systems are either discriminatory or malfunctioning, so lets just that give parents the choice. Maybe we all need to fill our classes are past the halfway level and have a good time and talk about what of the different ways we can deliver education to parents. Because there is a right to education. Whether its in the u. S. Constitution or the trees, the right to exist on the part of the child. So the best interest of the child, i think we can all approach that in a very optimistic hopeful way that we can come at it from different perspectives and different policy angles and we should never have anybody stricken from the rolls out a possible alternative because there may be some fallacies or errors that need to be corrected. We are improving our state completion all the time. We offered six 07 amendments. Its a democratic evolution. I look forward to more hopeful and positive expectancy regarding School Choice in america. I think that would be very helpful for all parties concerned. A couple of times jim has mentioned international context. Hes a director of programs, International Programs the Federalist Society. Ill start here and i will go way over. A mic is coming our way. National public radio. Im going to try to squeeze in two questions. Can someone explain adequacy versus equitable . And i didnt have anybody talk about kentucky. I spent some time there recently and it was supposed to be a model, example about could be done. Kentucky is back to square one pretty much because of its own cuts in education. Any thoughts on kentucky and what it told us, what it didnt tell us . Ill take the first question. Im a fan of your program, npr, just want to get that in. But second, absentee versus equity, so adequacy says we need to make sure that all children are provided opportunity to have a certain quantity of education that allows them to achieve certain benchmarks. Equity looks at disparities in Educational Opportunity between children, usually sometimes my Funding Amount but it can be quality of teachers, other things, are those distributed equitably . What we saw with School Funding litigation, what we saw were sort of what some scholars have called ways of litigation. Litigation focused first on dollar amount, equity, how much of the disparity is there between districts. And that was met with mixed mixed success. Part of the challenges, how much of a dollar amount is tolerable, particularly equal funding doesnt mean you get perfectly equal opportunities. One of the concerns with that equity was a very imperfect model for trying to get to equitable opportunities. Some children simply need more, whether they be a special needs children, english spanish learners. Equity was mixed. Kentucky was seen as way to make sure we have a floor for everyone. We want to make sure all children are educated to, for example, learn, kentucky was extremely specific about what comeoutcomes and wanted to see m the children. I think in part, im going to let others talk about kentucky, but i want to mention one thing. I think part of what happened once these cases are one such as the rose decision in kentucky, and as we try, politics shift in the focus shifts away from education so there are we sort of loose the focus on continuous improvement. I think in part we make improvements and then okay, lets wait and see what happens. When, in fact, theres always sort of multiple avenues that need to continue to be advanced. And so when you try to sort of adjust one thing for the funding formula, when you dont address the teacher salary formula and you dont address other things, you end up not seeing the improvement you want benevolence as lets abandon the project. If you get an equitable funding system using need to address how that money is spent. Before you pour new money into an ineffective salary structure, then you will not see improvement. If however you use that new money to recruit teachers some new avenues, if you use it for reducing class size which is one of the most then you might see improvement. But, unfortunately, additional money spent unwisely doesnt get you additional result. So then people think see, we put more money into we didnt get good results so that we should move on to something else. That is often what happens unfortunately in the funding litigation. Ill let others jump in. This rose standards is what the kentucky standard is mostly known for. Put out a traditionally managed standard about how you evaluate whether or not theres adequate funding. It came with several factors involving things like selfawareness and self realization, things that i frankly dont think a very specific and i think are not well managed judicially. But that was the start of the famous part of the kentucky case was the listing of what would be adequacy. I havent kept up with kentucky to know whether it has done well or not under that, so i would agree with the definitions that professor robinson gave up what adequacy and equity are in terms of the difference in the court cases. Its also worth noting no one mentioned what took place in kansas city and the billions of dollars spent there, so there are a number of cases. Here, yes. We heard a lot today about the importance of equitable finance from the state level, and i want to ask the panels fought on the importance of those at the district level as well because it seems to me you can have an entirely equitable state finance formula but then if thats not carried through to the district level, especially, for instance, with director hinojosa talk about the feds encouraging state of our equitable formulas, that might not work if its not carrying down to the school of oslo. Im wondering wondering if the panel has seized those opportunities in the Pilot Program . So i think, thats an incredibly important piece again, depending on how its going to be implemented at the local level, both at the local of in the state level, how much real guidance is going to be there to see how it is measured. But interdistrict disparities are a really big problem, too, and its because who is controlling the power of the local level . Just like what happens, who controls out at the state level, it also bleeds down to the local school board, trustees who are always looking in the best interest of the students as a whole. So often its perfect example. Everybody loves to sale great austin is, great place to be, if your educator in east austin you get one certain quality of education and if you are educated and west austin then you get a different kind of education, unfortunately. And when you look at the percent of certified teachers in the content area which is an area that has been shown to impact student performance, when you look at the experience level which experience level has been shown to impact Student Learning and outcome in several studies, those School Districts on the other side, and we will just say the east side, often have lower numbers of content certified teachers, often, less experienced teachers. In some cases have less access to professional development, have lower tools, especially when schools themselves compound the inequity with the local fundraisers where you go to the wealthy schools in the School District and your local pta earns gobs of money for the teachers. Im not saying we need to control, well, i would say we need to control equity, but its just, you know, its a really big problem and its not just a few districts. Its several districts when they have both wealthy and poor communities with a continuing struggle, but that is an opportunity, possibly that can be addressed but its only in those schools where they havent intervened. When youre looking at 5 of the School District but theres 80 of School Districts that are actually in need, you are not going to make the systemic reform that actually needs to happen. I received one question from someone associate with the teacher organization. I know we have a colleague back here for the teacher organization. Do you want to wait in and ask a question . Nat at the moment, okay. The question is, you mentioned, this is for the panel, image in Teacher Education is important. Whats one thing you would recommend we can do with state finance standpoint to improve who interest and stay in the profession . Enters and stays ill take it i guess. I do think opening up alternative ways into the profession and incentivizing highperforming students in the math and sciences to go into education, however that can be done, i think that would be a very important innovation. Weve got to get away from the idea that the worst performing teacher in the school gets paid the same amount as the best performing teacher in the school. Where else in American Society do we do that . And it is a huge problem. So when you find people who are really Good Students in the math and sciences and theyre thinking about going into a tech company or thinking maybe i can go into education, why should i be in an institution where im not valued for my effectiveness . Weve got to get better ways of determining effectiveness of teachers and the weve got to figure out how we get over this problem of compensation onesizefitsall. Thats a huge barrier in my view, about why some of the best and brightest toco intake education. Let me add one thing. First information about the best teacher versus the worst teacher. I think its very difficult. If you want to talk about areas that are really in need of much more research and even researchers in the field will say trying to gauge who is an effective teacher versus who is not. We had a teacher testified in our texas School Finance case that she was the teacher of the year, got the lobos and stuff, thats great, im going to continue to do what i do. The next year she didnt get the award. Her students didnt fare as well, yet she did the same thing. Its because people want to think that we can apply this Business Model that kids are widget. Kids are not widgets. Kids are kids. If we are looking at one way, one area that needs to be improved is actually a cultural competency of teachers. I think with the changing demographics that we have across the country, when we look at, we help School Districts across the south address various inequities and School Discipline and achievement gaps and opportunities, et cetera, those expectations that hes teachers out whether they come from a a temporary faculty agency or they come from a universitybased teacher preparation program, they often lack competency of the students their teaching and how implicit bias impacts teaching as well, who am i going to call him, who, going to get the toughest questions to come who am i discipline, but i think is acting up versus who doesnt have enough work . I think cultural competency is an incredible need across the teaching industry. Him him in. Mic is coming. All thanks for the panel. Before you say we owe federal government money for state or local, have you examined the problem that you can fix first before you ask for more money . The administrative staff, maybe you should send them to volunteer their Community Services to teach come to improve students score, rather than instead of teaching, the inference how to get more money, or how so they can turn things around and they can victimize the parents rather than teaching the students. So do you have really addressed those issues, the Current System not education but all system is victim. So can you address those issues before you ask for more money, before you go to litigation x after all, lawyer not only problem. There are more problem. Spirit you got for lawyers right here. [laughter] thank you for your question. We will start with jim who is smiling spirit i love lawyer jokes. No, i really dont. No, all i know is i think that there been some recent studies about how increases in public spending on education have translated in terms of what went to administrative costs versus what actually went to teachers. I think georgia did a very important study on that. Gerard will have a link to that. I think that is starting to get a lot more attention. Its a very good question, and hopefully we will some good answers about how has that money wound up helping pay more administration, and adequately take it and put back into the students, the clashing of the teachers . Always an important question, so thank you. I do agree with you but there is a need for Greater Transparency in funding, sort of how money is being spent now and where is it going. In terms about the classroom level, at the state level. That is something i think the public isnt fully aware. I dont think the public is fully or often in many states that have a regressive funding system or whats the basis for paying teachers, other things like that . I think that something would be more transparency on, on top of when we have a federal government system. You have three states in which a progressive. Can you make that available to us . Amateuarmature thats on the we. We have one minute left so we will make sure to get your question in. Thank you. I am with United States africa 2017 project. The assumption that i got from you guys, talking about financing, therefore, the import would be nice, effective from the results you want is students learn. Thats what you are dealing with right . Yes. I dont think any of you guys out there want people to be talking about that. You need to figure out how children learn, the environment, you need to look at the homes that they come from if they are not learning. Thank you. Absolutely. The real problem, and i said problem, with that statement, very respectfully come is a way that you are dealing with certain families from certain communities. And we always want to look at this as though we need the great white savior to come in and save all the children of color, frankly. The discussion around who should be, teachers to be recruiting oftentimes turns our attention away from the systemic reforms that are needed. But again, junior, its how certain communities are viewed. You talk about immigrant children, for example, who traveled across hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles across desert land can overcome everything, escaping possibly violence in her homeland, et cetera. And they come over here. So we might view immigrant communities in one lens but when you think that and say oh, my god, i dont want to let my kid walked onto the corner store. These kids traversed by country or sometimes two or three countries. Those are incredible attributes that should be tapped into systemic matter. And we cannot Divorce School fund from all of the other impacts that it has in Building Excellent School again we have a quality schools action framework and i would encourage all of you to look at on our website. But it shows the different change levers, et cetera that need to be addressed. Its not just about funding, but in bringing incredibly important and again you dont think it is, ask wealthy communities. Spirit let me thank jim for his contribution, particularly the rule of not want talk about international because thats becoming part of our conversation. And also the role of choice. I want to thank rocco for talking about a state that in many ways as if each of the United States in terms of demography. Big School Systems, rural School Systems, and i want to think davids work for his work in texas, also poverty, also the opportunity and families. The fact we often forget and thank professor robinson fo fore work particularly in the role of scholarship, arcane ideas about the law and making it readily available for people. And thank you for your book. Without thank all of you and ask you to give our panelists round of applause. [applause] [inaudible conversations] i had a piece of information that bob woodward wanted. I did not articulate that to myself but when i look back and asked myself why i did this bad and stupid thing, i think thats what it comes down to. Sunday night on q a, Georgetown University professor Barbara Feinman todd talks about working as a researcher and ghost writer for hillary clinton, car, Carl Bernstein anb woodward in her book pretend im not here. I resisted, i just spoke in general terms about what it was like being in the white house and then i told them the story about being in the room during this unusual exercise. I told him you cant use it. There were only these two women in the realm who were doing this, his two guests, and then there was one or two staffers, and mrs. Clinton. If you use it, everybody will know that i was the source. And i was very worried about that, but i trusted him. Sunday night at 8 p. M. Eastern on cspans q a. Watch cspan as President Donald Trump delivers his first address to a joint session of Congress Spirit of this congress is going to be the busiest congress weve had in decades. And life tuesday, december 28 on cspan and cspan. Org, and listen live on the free cspan radio app. Cspan, where history unfolds at daily. In 1979 cspan was cspan was greater as a Public Service by americas cabletelevision companies and has brought you today by your cable or satellite provider. Spirit at a house hearing official from the department of Veterans Affairs and veterans advocacy groups answered questions about the backlog and processing disability claims and that the appeals process. Congressman mike most chairs this 90 minute hearing. Good morning. Welcome everyone. This is the oversight hearing of the subcommittee of disability assistance and memorial affairs. Will now come to order. I first want to take a moment to welcome the subcommittee members, especially those who are new to congress and new to the committee, and also those who are returning. Its my privilege to have