Transcripts For CSPAN2 Cara 20240705

For a series on school segregation. Shes been a new america fellow in 2019 and a spencer fellow at the Columbia University school of journalism in 2018. Her book the death of a the death of Public School conservatives won the war over education. America is a historical account of actors and sites across the u. S. From southern segregationist, famous to our own former state. Wisconsin legislator, democrat williams, who was motivated empower black families and black youth. Milwaukee and she looks at the roles these and many others in the rise of School Choice in u. S. And the u. S. From the 1950s to the present. This is an important book for fitting in how wisconsin story, especially milwaukee now, is part of a larger story of School Vouchers and School Choice in the country. And my own book suddenly diverse, which i the privilege of presenting earlier. It looks at how school them School Board Members and superintendents and to a smaller medium sized districts faced intensifying pressures as they had a dog changing school system. And it deals with overlapping themes including School Choice policy, racial inequality and the undermining of Public Schools. So its really fun to put it also in this broader context and for reason, im really appreciative care for presenting today and helping us to kind of expand the stories that were telling about School Education policy and how think about equity at this moment. Thanks so much. Welcome, kara fitzpatrick. Thanks so much, everyone, for coming. Can you hear me okay . Just to make sure, are we good . Okay. I just have some notes here that are mostly like, dont forget Charter Schools. So just going to talk for a bit and then i hope know if people have questions, you can someone telling me im not quite loud enough. Okay, ill try. Eric is professor voice. So i would just want to talk for a little bit about how i sort of got into the subject i had been, as eric mentioned, a local reporter, florida and i had spent about four or five years writing about school segregation. The traditional Public Schools in Pinellas County, in particular, and a part of the focus was on these five Elementary Schools that essentially had been through policy almost deliberate, early resegregated, and they were ■ underresourced. Families were fleeing these schools. They had just rampant teacher. I talked to one family where their son had had 12 teachers in Something Like three months. They had teachers in the middle of the school day. I mean, some of it was just unbelievable. And so the stories that we wrote were not School Choice, but because has this long history. You know, 20 some years of having choice options. One of the things that i noticed when we to families and we interviewed 100 families at these schools. One of the things that came up quite often was families to find other options. They were trying to get their kids out of these schools. And because florida has choice options, some of them would go to maybe a Charter School, maybe to a private school with a tax credit scholarship with is essentially a type of voucher. You know, some of them went to magnet schools and the public system. And i just kind of had this in interesting that they were trying other options. But then it wasnt always working you know, sometimes they might go to a Charter School and the Charter School had some of the same problems or worse problems than the they had been in. You know, sometimes the options did work out. And i just i had questions kind of about what do you do when . The traditional system isnt working. You know, what are what are sort of the here because theres things you might do systemically and after our series Pinellas County did do some of those things they put more money into the schools. They tried to recruit and retain more experiethey brought recessf schools didnt even have recess. You know, they they added programs and and those schools over time actually did improve. Um but some of those systemic things that you might to fix or try to fix school sometimes, they take a long time and they necessarily help the child isnt learning how to read now or whos getting hit in class by other students. Now, um, and so i just had of these questions and i ended up doing a spencer fellowship at columbia and i had thought i might write more segregation and. Instead, i ended up focusing on the history of School Choice. And so i didnt really like, as a reporter knew kind of the gist of things. I knew what a Charter School, i knew what a voucher was, that kind of thing. Um, but i had heard different origin stories and so one that conservatives often say is that lton, whos a fairly wellknown conservative economist, that he wrote an essay in the fifties proposing a voucher system, a universal vouchers for everyones system, and then nothing really happens until. In 1990. And then we kind of get to today its one origin story. The other origin story that i heard typically from people who are opposed to School Choice was that it had its roots in segregation in in the south, you know, as a mechanism to avoid brown versus board. And i was trying to square how could have two such different origin stories. And so i started there and i was really kind of fascinated by what i came to find, which was that both of those things are true. These are essentially overlapping things. So you did have Milton Friedman write an essay in 1955 saying we should break up this public monopoly of of, you know, of Public Education and we should have everyone get a voucher, will pay for schooling on the and he thought you know that business more efficient than government so you had that idea and then you also did have segregationists in the south who were trying to avoid brown versus. Vouchers is just one of the ways they were doing all kinds things to try to avoid desegregating the schools vouchers. I always it strange but historians will refer to vouchers as as sort of a moderate solution that segregationists tried because the idea was that you would give kids essentially this escape valve that they could take a voucher and they could go to an all White Private School and have it paid for by the government. And so those things happened at the same time in the same era in the fifties. You also had another connection, oddly enough, you had a priest named virgil blum, who was a professor at marquette, and he ■wwas making a case for School Vouchers or some kind of state support to private education and for religious reasons. He really felt strongly that in particular that catholics were essentially doing Public Service with their schools and that families who, you know, chose Catholic Education, that they were getting discriminated against because on the one hand, they would pay taxes, support the Public Schools, and then they also would pay tuition, you know, to go to a private. And so he felt strongly that this discrimination and he was a really interesting sort of lesser known figure. Um, he was, he was kind of a curmudgeon. He felt extremely strongly about his beliefs and he felt that people who disagreed him were pretty irritating. His letters actually make for fantastic reading as far as Research Goes, because he would send people letters that were like, oh, i see you went to georgetown. When did they stop teaching the lution . I mean, his letters were really like aggressive about his views on things and he he also fascinating because he was making arguments for how you could pass Voucher Program and have it be const making argument it was based on religious liberty and that idea right now. Is extremely prevalent with our current supreme court. But at the time, you know, it wasnt i mean he was decades ahead of his time. And so i thought when i was trying to decide, well, where do you start this book because you also i mean, you also could go back to the founding of the country and you uld talk about the ways that the Founding Fathers disagreed about how we might educate the countrys children and who was worthy of education and how much education. And i didnt want to i mean, one, i didnt want to write an encyclopedia and. Have no one actually read the book. But i thought the fifties are so interesting because you have these three strands. You have the economic friedman argument. You know, you have religious liberty argument and you also have the segregationists and i thought all of those ideas are still in play today of who its for and howd why. And so i started the book there. One thing i think is important to note is that t■he segregationist did actually pass a school Voucher Program in louisiana and virginia highlighted a lot in the book ■0because. They had some of the longest running. Virginia had a Voucher Program about ten years and that often doesnt mentioned. But they did. They passed a voucher. And then the courts very quickly shut them down. You know, im not quickly years in virginia, but the down and said, know this is racist youre trying to get around brown versus board but its another in overlap becausee courts are shutting them down and saying is racist, then you also had some sort of liberal more progressive voices saying, you know, actually, you might be able to use a School Voucher as a tool of empowerment for low income kids, very different idea than Milton Friedman. Lets have everybody do it. This was very much, you know, this idea you could empower the families who essentially dont have as much choice because they cant pay for it and those those voices you know that period of time somewhat brief but it sets the stage milwaukee which becomes the countrys first sort of modern program. In 1990. And you know, i at some point when i was doing the book, i spent five years on this. And i always seem to come to milwaukee and, madison to do research when it was like indiana jewry. And there is like ten inches of snow and you might not make your flight out. And i just i dont know why, i did that, but a couple of times i thought, you know, i should Research Like Charter Schools in hawaii or like just should have picked Something Else because i dont think i fully understood how central to the story wisconsin would be. But i will say its very pretty drive over here today. And then i stopped somewhere to look for gifts for kids and the the clerk asked me if i was coming in for the me, right . The cheese and and the fall leaves and the colors and things. But but when i first when i first came to do research, i was just like, you picked the wrong topic. But so is interesting because. It was sort of in a way, the Perfect Place for the First Program to happen, because you did have possible yams that erica mentioned earlier. So, you know, a black democratic legislator who was very interested in education, you know, very particularly interested the milwaukee Public Schools and really thought they were not doing a good job, particularly for black students, for low income students. And she was, you know, of a political force, a veryforce toe with. And you had governor Tommy Thompson, who politically agreed with polly on very, very little. You know, hes a republican whos white. Hes from a rural area, the state. But he had alreadop times and and gotten nowhere with it. And so the two of them form and what polly came to call the unholy which at one point was actually the title of my book but everyone thought it was like a history of the Catholic Church or the roman empire. And so we had to go a different direction. But i really liked the idea the unholy alliance because you still a lot of that around School Choice issues you still see these sort of strange political bedfellows you know and then ev this year penciled ania had a democratic governor saying he supported vouchers and there was a massive backlash and it was i actually paused and made sure he was a democrat because its become so unusual for that for that to happen. The other thing aside from the the Political Alliance that you had in, milwaukee, is that you had a city that already had this history of independent, secular, private in the city that you know were largely serving black and latino children and were generally felt to be doing a good job of it. And so you kind of had this base of support that be tapped into phrased and kind of framed the public as an experiment. It would be small it would be only low income children. It would be, you know, capped enrollment like 1 of the School Districts enrollment. And it was just going to be this experiment originally. It was supposed to a five year pilot and when it actually passed, Tommy Thompson used wisconsins strange veto power and like kind of crossed that part out. But it started very small and, you know, was an interesting moment. I think for the country because it was the beginning. This kind of conversation about public choice versus private School Choice, because at the same time that you had wisconsin kind of going down this road of private School Choice in minnesota to people were trying to pass the first Charter School legislation and that was very much framed Public School choice you know that it would be outside of you know the sort of the bureaucracy of the School District. But it was going to be autonomous, you know, different type of Public School. And so you have this period of time in the nineties where these two ideas are kind of warring with each other and. Charter schools basically win out because there were fewer legal questions. It didnt raise all of this sort of church, state separation question and it was in a large way for democrat its Charter Schools were an answer to School Vouchers because republicans vouchers. And so if youre trying to talk about education reform and republicans are saying we need School Vouchers, democrats cant really just say, well, we just really love our traditional Public Schools. Its not like an argument reform. And so what they did say was, well, we like choice, but we like public, we like Charter Schools and our were like, well, those are okay. So well get on board with that too. And so that actually is the reform that spread were up to. I think now montana, 46 states have Charter Schools and washington, d. C. Has charter. But i like the idea of how do these two reform ideas sort of bump up against each other politically . And why are certain people supporting one over the other and then the other sort of midwestern city that becomes very important in this history, cleveland and, because cleveland had and ohio had also a republican governor who was interested in choice. It was a slightly different situation and milwaukee had actually pretty good grass support. Cleveland actually had a lot of grass opposition, particularly the black community. So they were not the same sort of setup at all. But what cleveland, was it just been a judge had just taken control away from the local school board. It had a an extremely history of problems and so when the when the legislators in ohio were looking a place where they could maybe try out School Vouchers, cleveland was something that was the city schools were such poor shape that it was hard to make an argument against it. And that is essentially why they chose cleveland. But its interesting because milwaukee started off with secular private schools and then expanded to religious schools. Cleveland went straight for religious schools. So this is the area of the book where in the research i did not understand how much time i would spend trying to figure out a court and the legal. And if i had known and i might have made other life choices, but what i came to understand too late in the process, you know, was that this legal history is incredibly important, because if pass a program and its challenged in court and you dont win there, then thats thats the end of the program. We dont go anywhere. And i church state issues were a little bit clearer than they actually are is it actually its becoming clearer now but it used a fairly murky area of law. And so there were all manner of cases where states had tried to provide different types of support, private schools, you know maybe well pay for textbooks or well try to pay for teacher salaries because there is a legitimate interest for quite a long time in tryin l system, which was declining. You know, schools, Catholic Schools were closing on a pretty regular■p basis. And those cases didnt in a really clear direction. Sometimes they would say, well, yeah you can pay for textbooks if theyre secular. You cant pay for teacher salaries, you know. And so there was there was a case history there that didnt make it really clear whether or not this was okay. And so the people who passed milwaukees and clevelands program and then started trying to pass other programs were very aware that they had to win in the courts and they werent exactly sure how that was going to go. And so i actually really interested in this after initially being kind of terrified of it. Reader, maybe is less interested in of this and, and so i was just thinking, you know, just journalistically, would you get to kind of come through this, have this very important understanding, but also, you know, want to go like a b read or a better tv show or something and and so what i ended up focusing on were these two lawyers. Turns out that most of these cases were argued by the same two people and they flew all over the country, esntially fighting other in court and. They were they are theyre still alive. Just incredibly different these two men could just not have anything in common. One was Robert Channon was a long time lawyer. The the nea Teachers Union and he was his he was seasoned, had argued before the supreme court, before he was very, very focused on. The law we only talk about the law. We are not talking about public policy. Were not talking about kids. He was firmly of the belief that in the courtroom, talking about the law. Clint bolick was the other side of it. He was younger he was less experienced. He was a very sort of passionate conservative. And he he was sort of a clever saw that it was not just about the law that it needed to also be about over public opinion. And so he did things that just drove the other guy nuts. He would have people in kids, you know, from private wearing their uniforms. And there would be rallies on the courthouse steps. And hed make sure the kids could come in and fill the courtroom. So the the judges are listening testimony, but also seeing all of these rows of children in front of them he made people buttons to wear, you know, like red white and blue buttons. At one point, he actually went to defend how your case in puerto rico not speaking spanish and had buttons translated into spanish. He did not win there but he he kind of what what5g someone actually a professor in this area choice theater sort of this kind road show aspect of it trying pull a little bit on heartstrings and emotions and saying you know these kids right here next to you, you know, they have another chance. This is it. And this drove the other guy totally bonkers. And at one point. Education week did like a a story this them flying back and forth and arguing these cases and it was called bolick versus shannon and they them take a picture together and you can just see that the one guy is like not at all wanting to be in photo. And i just i was so captivated by these two and i thought, you know, if you to read all of this legal stuff, these two guys were, one really doesnt kind of like the other one and the other one sort of likes the other guy. Maybe kind of arguing across the country was a good way to sort of set up, knock down and go back and forth with some of the the arguments. And and i actually i got to interview both of them. Clint bolick is now on the arizona supreme court. Robert shannon is retired. But i remember in one of my interviews with shannon, who was opposed School Choice, i said something along the lines of there are some compelling for School Choice. And the other side of the phone was just dead silence. I mean, he just he didnt think there were any arguments for School Choice and it was a little awkward like so theres not ever mind. Theres not compellin so that these two guys so firmly believed what they believed in that they you know, argued these cases all over over. And so i thought that was a good way, you know, to sort of get into that. One thing. I want to back to with Charter Schools. You know thats sort of interesting is that i just want to mention because for a long time that was a bipartisan reform that people really everyone could kind of get behind. For the most part. There have always been concerns from and from teacher unions about whether or not Charter Schools, you know, and the idea of competition is not great for the public system. So i want to acknowledge that. But in recent, theres really been this backlash. Democrat backlash against Charter Schools. And i, i think its so interesting that Charter Schools are now in this sort of strange place where a lot of democrats are not supporting anymore. You know President Biden has been rather critical them and we now this is not even in the book because its such a crazy landscape now around School Choice. We now oklahoma has just approved what could be our first religious Charter School, which is an area of law that is still even all of the stuff that i wrote about and learned is still its not even in the book because. It just happened over the summer. And it is such a crazy development. And i just saw the other day that own state attorney general is now suing the charter board for approving it. I mean, its just like a legal over there and, um, and i only thing abt that that i feel sort of validated is that i understand and how we could get there. I did all of this work on the legal, so i was like, well, thats good. At least because i understand the arguments being made for it. But its still, its just such a crazy development. So one of the questions that i had in this, you know, throughout doing my research was sort this idea of whose vision for School Choice sort of won. Because one of the things i thought was so interesting this is that you have obviously the people who are for it and the people who are against you have that argument and debate but then within the School Choice community, theres actually been a fair amount of argument and debate about what it should look like. You know, should there be accountability should the kids take, you know, tests . Should teachers have background requirements, you know, there be financial audits . Who should the program before . Should be for everyone . Should it be for class people . You know, so i thought it was interesting that there was such a level of debate even within the movement and really know pretty intense debate at times. The sort of unholy alliance of polly Polly Williams and Tommy Thompson actually broke down over those questions because she felt very strongly that were pushing, you know, School Vouchers and school in a direction that she was not comfortable with. She wanted it to be only for low income children, and she felt that conservatives were pushing it to be for everyone, as were now seeing, you know, today. And one of the questions i had going in was just, well, whose vision sort of one, because for the■j longest time, Milton Friedmans vision was considered rather extreme. And it not at all popular. And it got shot down in all kinds of places where they tried to pass legislation or have a referendum with a larger Voucher Program. And now, you know, what ive come to conclude is his vision is the one thats winning out right now, because even within the last few years, what weve seen is really this big shift from, you know, very sort of targeted programs of School Vouchers are maybe for students with disabilities or theyre for low income children to now we now have i think were up to nine states that have universal savings accounts, which education savings accounts essentially like a voucher. They have even more flexibility. So you can basically be take your kid out of Public School. You get sort of limited use savings and that gives you a certain amount of money depending on the state that can spend on in some cases, homeschooling still tuition therapies. You know, mayber speech therapy, online programs, transports and test fees. Its its very open in. Florida in its actually its not fraud its actually an allowable use that if you dont spend all the money you can buy disney tickets and paddle and tvs and thats thats perfectly allowed. Thats it within the the guidelines for the program. Nine states now have that they they vary in the amounts they vary the regulations. But that is an incredible shift just within the last few years. And i think a large part of shift is because of the pandemic. You know, i think that created a political opportunity in a lot of ways■t because, especially in states where they already had some kind of programs or theres perhaps a base of support. But i tnk, you know, the pandemic, you know, it it created a fair amount of discontent with schools in some cases, you know, places schools were closed longer. I mean, the pandemic, all the kids, as far as academics go, but in places where the schools were closed longer, you know, the the decline is worse. And so i think it just created this opportunity where at least for a brief period of some parents were looking other options and tried things out that they might not have otherwise. And you know, some did that as a temporary thing, go to Catholic School for a year and then well go back when our school opens. And some people actually i like this better. You know, i dont want my kid to this political where now weve seen just a historic wave of School Choice. Legislation passed in the country. And i keep getting asked in interviews where i think its all going and i keep saying im making any predictions because. Thing. I, i didnt think dvds would catch on like im not the person to ask but i do think that were in uh, a pretty unique moment for School Choice and it does not seem like, you know, that its going to fade away. Ill say that much. And then i had my last note here said, research. And that seems like a good way to put all you to sleep. So i might. I might just open it up to questions, and then well if research plays into some of the things that people ask butyou ha question first. Is the microphone over that you. If you dont line up, i will just start right in on the research research. I just had two questions. So first of all, and ill■z ill tell you what the two questions are and then give you a chance to respond. So my first question is, im wondering if maybe charter because i was thinking maybe that will time entice more and more teachers away from Public Schools. But then my second question is, i during the pandemic that there were actually a couple of very School Districts in wisconsin that ended up os their schools like permanently closing their schools and it started making me wonder about kids especially in rural starting maybe attend schools virtually and then i was if you had thoughts on how that might impact the growth of like Charter Schools would cater to remote learners. Yeah its a good question so the first one you know Charter School salaries vary. I mean everything with charter on where you know where theyre located. The state sometimes Charter Schools have actually paid a little less and have had Higher Turnover simply because some of the charter models have required just a ton of hours and commitment from staff. And so but it varies it varies a lot on your state. The rural question is really interesting because rural areas are still a place where theres quite a bit of of republican dissent about. Were seeing this in texas right now, a huge battle over education savings accounts in texas because a number of rural republicans dont want to vote for because in those communities youre trying really small rural districts are often, you know, a major employer sort of center of the community. You know, people have very strong feelings about their their School Districts. And and theres also a little less of an argument to be made for it because. Theres not a ton of private the online is interesting because some i mean, not many, but some found benefits to Online Learning and the the religious charter thats thats been approved in oklahoma actually an Online School thats thats two provide Catholic Education to kids in rural areas who dont have access a from the religious questions with that. One of the interesting things is that online charters in particular are tend to have really really poor results that just has been i mean not apart from Charter Schools as an industry they just tend to have to had a lot of problems. So i mean, i dont know how appealing that model is to families, but certainly if youre in a rural area and youre to satisfied with something or you know, youre having to go a great distance, get to school, it could be an option for some. So im leaning this way someone go this might actually get into your research. Question but could you talk a little bit about enrollment, what trends youve seen in enrollment in terms of Public School enrollment, Charter School, private school enrollment, right. Yeah. So during the pandemic, we a pretty sizable decline in, enrollment for traditional Public Schools and that hasnt really completely rebounded at Charter Schools. Actually had a pretty good bump in enrollment. They enrolled more kids during the pandemic and they have largely hung on to those children. You probably for various reasons and then you know Catholic Schools had kind of a one year bump in enrollment during pandemic and and then are kind of back to to being the decline. And ive talked to some families, they did Something Like that for a year because they had to work, you know. They needed the kid to go to school and then they back to where they had been. But, you know, its because private schools have always been ■e about 10 to 12 of enrollment the country and for as much sort of Media Attention as School Choice commands the programs themselves until the last few years have been fairly small. You know, vast majority of kids still go to Public Schools. But right now, the projections with all of this expansion, you were still kind of in a period of time where its sorting out and its hard to say how many kids are enrolling in some of these things. But but theyre getting a pretty good in the choice pgrams. So, you know, that might include things other than traditional private school. Yeah. You began touch on this is a dearth of Public Schools azar research out there pointing the death of communities. You talked a little about texas. It seems that wherever you are, if you sort yourself to personal choices instead of, community choices, its not going to be bad. So it could socially be doing that. Is there any body, including yourself working on that with as far as Research Goes . You know, its sort of an interesting because in a lot of places the traditional Public Schools are are already fairly segregated and we especially see that in cities of course, you know so you have that issue already in the traditional Public Schools, Charter Schools tended to have a little bit more of a segregating effect. Some of that can be that there are a number of culturally affirming Charter Schools. You know, a Charter School that is built around a particular culture or language or, you know, and so, so some of that is is because of that, you know, in hawaii, they have schools to try to preserve language and culture. But whats interesting is that you often hear people say that vouchers will create segregation caused segregation. And so far theres actually not lot of research to support that, in part because a lot of private are already very white and a lot of the kids who are using programs often are black or latino. There is a research in louisiana that that either sort of no effect on segregation or actually a small amount of integration for some of the schools. But that research is on small programs. This move toward universal is so new and a lot of the states that are passing these programs are not attaching any effort to study the outcomes what they do and so i dont we know yet for the big programs you know when every kid the state is eligible i dont we know yet what thats going to look like. But i think to your point, you know, its its one of the sort of foundational aspects of Public Education is at least aspirationally that it brings together, you know, in different ways and should bring kids from different backgrounds together. And that that has an effect for everyone. And know private schools are kind of a different thing in a way because when youre going to a private school, what youre looking for is a different type of community. You know if youre going to a Catholic School, youre looking for a catholic. And so its a its just a different function and so i have two questions and theyre both about intent. Those who came up with the ideas and the first one is really a follow up to previous question, which is was racist thinking behind these ideas of of schools that are not public. And the second question has do with the way it seems like whatever look the republicans are very busy destroying the common and monetizing them taking things we thought available to us and making them into moneymaking enterprises. So how much of that the is they and and the way its yeah its questions you know as far as the sort of racist intent there was definitely racist intent for the segregationist in the south that the whole design of the the programs and you know when the south was that there also was an education and. Those schools of course tended to be all white and some of them were were run by citizens councils, you know, they were run racist groups. So for some people, definitely that intent was there. What i is interesting is that for other it was sort of the opposite, you know, for probably williams it was about trying to give opportunities to black in was very much a focus of hers and so you know and in a way it sort of speaks to the idea that at the end of the day, School Vouchers are, a tool and you can design programs in ways that do and you can design programs ways that might minimize harm. And it sort of in how you set it up. And now im forgetting second oh that sort the idea of yeah privatizing there is always been sort of an interesting subtext in a lot of School Choice conversation around the idea of sort of applying business principles to, Public Schools and this idea that, you know, that business is more efficient than government and you know that we can we can somehow do better and for less money and you know, that kind of idea has really been in play for vouchers and for Charter Schools and really with a lot of different education reforms, sometimes to really horrible effects, you know, in in the period time, maybe the first ten years with Charter Schools when they were trying a lot of Different Things, there were were places where theyand said this reallyt be a for profit. This shouldnt be a profit making venture. You know, there should be another kind of Public School. And in other places, they really didnt put limits on that. And you know, one example i can think is in in arizona a Charter School operator where they were having kids go to school in shifts. And so you could enroll more children so you could get more per pupil funding. But then it was kind of like an assembly line. You know, you have the kids come in the morning and the kids come in the afternoon and and even some charter supporters, you know, were saying thats not really an innovation and you know, that thats literally about money and in a sort of prominent School Voucher supporter in ohio who really thought it was perfectly to make money off of Public Education he actually converted it a couple of his voucher schools Charter Schools when ohio passed their law because was more per pupil funding. So you know that that is is has been kind of a subtext of the entire conversation because obviously there are people who maybe support choice but very much oppose it in that way. So yeah. Excuse me. I wondered you have a huge topic its if you did anything at the role of foundations large foundations how the role discusg particularly. Yeah this is where you get into sort of encyclopedia versus not encyclopedia but in the book do sort of address this idea that, you know, there was well, theres two different ways that foundations of play a role Charter Schools have had a lot of support you know from like the Walton Foundation and the Gates Foundation and some of these groups that are interested in reform. And you well pay for different, different models. And those are not the only things that theyre supporting. You know, gates was big Small Schools for a while, but that monetary support, you know, has been has been important, sort of spreading some of the ideas and and trying to replicate maybe successful Charter Schools. Kipp got some money from the family. I think that own the gap so so theres definitely been that and then on the private School Choice side some conservative foundations have played a pretty essential role as far as you know paying for polling paying for Research Setting up conferences kind getting the idea out there in a lot of ways. You know when when Polly Williams out in support of vouchers she for a little period of time was sort of almost a darling of the right because it was unusual to see a black democratic woman. And she was anerson, you know, in support of this. So, you know, she was giving speeches at like the Heritage Foundation and interviews heartland and and so absolutely thats yeah, that is a part of it. Yeah. Yes. I was just wondering, you did research on teacher salaries coming from parents that are retired teachers one my dad is a retired teacher over 30 plus years in the same School District not necessarily for monetary value or or salary im just wondering if were in a culture now and you mentioned on in talk about florida doing more higher to get more qlity is th something think higher salaries will help in the Public Schools or how are we in a culture right now people dont to take a teaching position necessarily . Lee yeah its its a good good question. Im also the daughter of a retired special ed teacher. I definitely was not in for the money then, thats for sure. And my sister actually now a special ed teacher in the same district, also paid enough. You know, i think its its interesting because a lot of private schools actually salaries tend to be lower, you know, and then they tend to have fewer benefits. And some cases thats been part of the model, you know, for a long time. Catholic schools could charge less and tuition because they had cheaper labor costs, not just from paying teachers less, but they, you know, they had nuns and priests who were who were serving. And so that costs down. Theres its interesting right now because i think with the pandemic, theres been so many needs you know, and teaching has become if it was it easy before but its become a lot harder in certain ways. You know, the kids are in some cases, you know. Well, i mean, the kids are behind but but theyre behind in sort strange ways because maybe theyre fourth grade now, but they were remote in second. So theyre missing some foundational pieces. So youre trying to teach a math lesson and say, well, teach fourth grade, but we got to stop and review the second grade but maybe third was a little better because they were back in school, you know so i think that is a really complex factor kids are missing a lot of school right now absenteeism is high behave. Your issues are pretty intense right now. And so i dont think weve seen a really big to increase teacher salaries, but we have seen an increase in teacher turnover or you know, there are people who are just getting burned out if they werent already pretty burned out from the pandemic. And so, you know, the way that states are addressing that, unfortunately, is not necessarily to run in with more money for teachers in some cases, theyre sort of making it easier to become teacher or allowing people to become teachers, you know, with certification requirements, theres Different Research on sort of the effects of salary and and also, you know, whether you might attract different people to the profession if it paid. Morenos of a complicated question a lot of teachers are not teaching the money but you know the schools that i covered in florida one of the ways that they tried to attract veteran teachers was they did actually a lot more money, depending on how many years, you know, you had been a teacher. So if you were a teacher for 25 years and you agreed to work in one of those schools, you know, the bonuses got pretty significant and even still even there when was in the first couple of years and it was really hard wo to try turn those schools around. I still would talk to teachers would transfer to a different mean really i had a conversation with a gentleman that was so heartbreaking because he loved teaching in one of those schools and um, he moved to a different school. I asked him why and he said even the extra money was not making it so that he could go and be a good parent to his children. At the end of the day, he was just worn out and so, you know, i think were seeing a lot of that right now, a lot of different ways. Yeah, i just want to say thank you for speaking as well, but im not sure if mines the question or comment, but i grew up in sort of a smaller, Smaller Community and i think it was very evident even as a child why people make certain decisions either or socially in reference education or school and i just think its important for us to work as opposed to create these problems. And i think this book is beautiful that you wrote. Thank you. Thank you. One of the rash notes ive heard for nonPublic Schools was that the Public Schools are in cookie cutter tradition bound, hidebound had to live with all sorts of state requirements and didnt have flexibility, try new and interesting things, but if you have a nonPublic School, they can do all sorts of wonderful, innovative stuff. Is there any evidence to support the idea that that has actually worked . You know, its interesting because thats actually its been a big argument for charter that you could do innovative things if you were sort of free of some of the regulations and in cases you do see that you charters that have sort of interesting models where they have a longer day or a longer school year or they have sort of extra support around, you know, helping kids apply to college and different high schools and sort of this like wraparound idea. But i dont know that that overall like Broad Strokes its you when you hear people talk about Public Schools being sort of cookie cutter or like this factory idea it sort ignoring that Public School districts a lot of places actually have a ton choice within them. You know you have magnet schools you know that offer different like sort of thematic things, a stem or a, you know a marine program. There is a school in florida that had a journalism program, you know, for for little kids was pretty cute. And then, you know, you have, um, special admissions schools, you know, and some those options have their own sort of, but you have career and technical education, you know, just theres already actually a of Different Things that School Districts have that are not sort of cookie cutter. And i think some of that is also in response to the idea of these choice options. You know, the idea of competition. But it seems i feel like it gets overlooked sometimes that the School Districts themselves have lot of different um, program aims. You do see sometimes when people are trying to improve a school sy this. Houston right now you see sort of this top down. Were going to all use the exact same, you know, program and each teachers gonna be on the exact same page and were going, you kind of see that. But its often a reform as to try to improve test scores. And, you know, that has all manner of complaints and issues with it. But but that does sort of exist but kind of in a reform space oftentimes. Yeah. You mentioned special education and i was curious. Most states generally do not Fund Special Education cuts have been pretty dramatic. And as i understand the law of voucher a Charter School cant describe mandate against a student, but nor do they have to any programs. Right. And almost no voucher Charter Schools have any programs in special education. So they dont have to worry about discrimination. Most parents wont apply. I was wondering in your analysis how much of the■ push for vouchers and charters are behind parents who want a certain type of kid in their class and which can easily manipulated by the School Depending on the laws in each state. Some actually prevent that, but most states do not. Yeah its its a good question. You know the just the issue of special is is such a tough one. My sister this year has 32 students in her class, which is actually illegal. And theyre theyre not doing anything about that in her rural district. But its pretty impossible to teach the level children that she teaches and have two of them in a room. You so its such a difficult area. One thing thats interesting with with School Choice options is that you know youre right private schools dont have to accept any i mean theres no federal obligation Public School system has to take you regardless of what, you know, disability have. They have to find a way to to serve. And theres you know, theres a whole federal process where. The kids have rights. And that process can be difficult and people can disagree about howe child. But you have to go through you know, its called an iep process where you create a plan for that child, say this child needs physical therapy, this child needs extra time tests or or it is. And often you providing that education is. You know all of those services can can be expensive. And when you i think one of the things families sometimes dont understand is when you leave the public system, you know the private schools are not obligated to do those things. Its not illegal for them to say wean serve. And so sometimes get frustrated with, the Public School and they leave and they go to a private and theyre like, well, what about my iep . And theyre like we dont have to do anything with that, you know. And so theres that issue. Whats interesting, though, is some states, including wionsin, actually have school Voucher Programs specifically for children with disabilities. And so in those cases, you know, the really have to be sort of smart can and really know what it is that theyre able to get using you know those funds but but it isnt an area where you talk to people and they didnt know when they left that they werent going to have the same kind of rights. And so its its its a really difficult area. Yeah. So original question was about special education. And you just addressed that but i have multiple questions. So i could ask you lots of things. Im actually from texas. And so we do have im here visiting my son at wisconsin, but we do have a special session on right now related to vouchers that. You mentioned briefly and i was just a lot of what i feel is going on is, at least in texas is we have such a low amount that we allow Public Education. Our public educators to have per student that theyre not able to teach at the same level and provide some of the services that maybe a a private might be able to do. And i was just curious if you kind of saw that same thing with all the others, you know, states that you looked at if if there was always a case of where, like texas is 43rd in the nation on funding per. Student i was just curious if you kind of saw that same thing that always states that had low spending per student that went with a voucher system. Thats an interesting question. Yeah, i have been to the texas tribunes coverage of all of the proposals because the house and senate at the moment are so far apart. And im just i mean. Im a nerd, but im just glued to this every day because theres been like a new development and theres side note on texas. Now im distracted. There have been more■g than 50 different attempts over the years to to do some kind of voucher or tax credit scholarship or something in xas and has failed every time its so interesting because you would think just understanding that republicans are generally for and democrats are generally against that somewhere like texas would be a big School Choice country. And its its the rural thing, but its about rural areas. Yeah. Part of the issue. Yeah. Because republicans vote for it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, i understand that better because i drove across texas during the pandemic and i was like, there is not a lot out here some places so it became more understandable and now i have completely lost my thought oh the per student funding you its interesting it varies mean its like anything it varies florida has a ton of School Choice and actually there they are not great as far as school Public School funding goes but theyre sort of i say they republican lawmakers theyre sort of proud of it. They think like we have great outcomes for less money know its kind of that aspect of it but its not i wouldnt say that its a reason something is passed necessarily. I do i will say for family sometimes its sort of this vicious cycle where you talk to parents. You know, i just actually talked to friend not that long ago who is telling me i really wanted to put my, you know, my son and in Public School. But i did not think he was going to do well in a class with 35 other kids, which is what she was looking at. And then it was also the pandemic and the the school she couldnt go and see the school. And so sheoftentimes private sce smaller class sizes. But whats sort of the vicious cycle there is that when people, you know, opt out often for very reasons, then you know, it doesnt help the school. Right. Because you if the district is losing money, it just becomes kind of this, you know, this cycle. Whereas, okay, well, now were going to have to cut our art teacher and the class sizes are go and so i mean i think i think its san antonio and plano right now theyre talking about closing a number of traditional Public Schools. And thats a lot to do with Charter School enrollment. And so thank you were waving at me and im just here to ask them how theyre but thanks everyone for those wonderful for me thank now without further adieu tonight, i am very excited to welcome Andrew Mckevitt celebrating the release of country gun capitalism and culture and control and cold war just as World War Two transformed the United States into a Global Military and economic superpower, so too