Protest day for a very large kind of static event where they would be at our park in downtown area. Thats not unusual in the climate of policing today. We had planned for it to be something that we would manage peacefully. We had strategically injected ourselves into the planning process with undercover cops so hear any Property Damage or violence. We were pretty comfortable that morning that this would be a seemless event and people would express themselves and we would be navigating them or guiding them in a peaceful way . Host how did it develop . Guest well, it began as scheduled on time. There were scheduleed speakers, no different than what you hear in other protests across the country about shooting of black armed men but this was specifically focused on the shoot negotiation minnesota and happened just the day before and this was connected to protests in new york, los angeles, all the big cities who were experiencing similar protests and similar speeches and people were actually interacting well with our cops. They were taking selfies, smiles, we had worked really hard on that relationship with the community for several years and it was our strategy before ferguson, missouri happened to be successful with the community and policing the city. Im born and raised in dallas, so this was something that, you know, mid protest, even later into the protest, i felt very comfortable with that it was going to be a peaceful event. How long had you been chief at that point . Six years. Had been serving since the 1940s, modern area of dallas. I knew it was in hard times. Im paying attention to every detail of everything that could go wrong like in aprotest environment you see that thing going and police not on top of their game, it gets out of hand so really focused on it and i was focused on it remaining peaceful. Host where were you when the shooter started killing police . Guest i had left a minute before i lived in headquarters condo, a couple of miles from the event and i had just told the second in command sounds this is about to be over, peaceful, im going to go home. Call me when the last protester gets in the car and drives off. We want to stay till the end to make sure no fights broke out as people walked to their cars and so i had only taken off my gun belt and i get this call from second in command and frantic out of breath, obviously something what he said to me made my heart drop, it really did. Host whats the aftermath of an event like that five policemen killed in one dead . It is gut wrenching that you have to explain to widows and officers kids why this happened. And you to do it many times on a national stage. So you have to try to maintain that intimacy and the families are paying attention to you when youre on television and on radio or interacting in the public with how you are expressing how you feel about the sacrifice that their loved ones made. It was beyond painful having to stay composed, hold your grief aside and be strong for what had been a city and a country. David brown n your new book called to rise, you talk about losing your partner early on in your Police Career and you almost left the force. He was an older gentleman. We were batman and robin. I it was a relationship that was built for the ages. We envisioned, we had plans, we had joy protecting the community. We had we had a because he was older he had a mature thought process that i would gain later through any reflection on him and his words after he passed and killed in a Domestic Violence incident in dallas, so only upon reflection does this strategy make sense. At the time it made absolutely no sense and made me want to give up on police and my faith. I was 28 years old when it happened and i didnt understand how bad things happened to good people, that didnt register to me as right and i wanted to give up. Host does Community Policing work . Guest yes, it makes Police Officers safer. It makes Police Officers safer and citizens safer and reduces crime more than any other approach, im convinced on that and i have been on the opposite side of that and i have been persuaded through not just data and results and Citizen Feedback , ive seen it make Communities Trust the Police Department and perceive themselves as being safer. So all the perceptions of crime and the trust issues that we struggle with as a police force in our country is resolved through Community Policing, community engagement, being in tune with what the community is expressing to you or the flaws of not only their neighborhood but of your officers if you listen. Whats the downside . The downside is theres a tradition of policing, a culture of policing that cant see how putting them all in jail let god sort them out is not the best way to police. It is a human reaction that somebody does something that violates the law, lets lock them up and now were safer. The reality is that is untrue couldnt intuitive, you have to segment out lowerlevel offenders, people who are mentallyill, drug addicted versus the truly violent person that needs to be locked up and if you lump them altogether, your prisons become a revolving door of not only Mental Illness and drug addiction but of poverty and people who have maybe a poor environment, poor education system, schools, all of the social ills, you criminalize and lump altogether and people revolve in and out of of prisons and you have a cycle of crime that makes you less safe. Host in your new book you talk about the effect of federal policies on cities such as yours dallas, mass incarceration and tougher crime laws, what do they do on a local level . Guest they make your neighborhoods dysfunctional because it makes the Family Structure dysfunctional. Its the Family Structure that is the committee of your neighborhood and your city and once you dysfunction that through mass incarceration or tough on crime without any thoughts of the effects of these folks who are incarcerated for lowlevel crime who might often need treatment or Mental Illness treatment and the children see the police as someone who mistreated their father, now the father is not in the home and now the mother has to do everything and the children are on the street when she is at work and cops now begin to criminalize that behavior and now theyre in the system, then their father gets out when the kids are in the system. Its a cycle but for their lot in life, the social demographic of poverty and poor schools and all of the usual stuff that makes fis functional in our society, the cops have to resolve with handcuffs and a pistol. Thats not the tool thats resolving the entrenched conflict issues in the country and the cops often fail at that because the tools they have is not acomplo mated how can you mention all cops as racists particularly white cops yet you get five white cops killed protecting protesters who are protesting white cops being it dont match. Most of it is about entrenched and not listening. Cops make the ultimate sacrifice regardless of your race and then to have cops isnt right and many of our mothers taught us this and its part of the prescription of resolving some of the divide between communities and policing that if color if you want something done right, do it yourself and protest sign, put in an application, we need more people of color in Law Enforcement to help us bridge the gap between policing and community. We need it. I have it premise that it wont be resolved until theres a skin in the game from all sides including becoming police, local democracy, local democracy, 6 , 10 of the population vote. You cant create significant when just protesting when you have the paradigm of 90 of the people not participating in local democracy. Will wont be significant change. You have to put skin in the game, our mothers taught us we have to do it yourself. Whats the breakdown of the Police Department . We are majority minority department. 51 . Hardfought to get that balance because particularly for millennials, today a millennials of color, policing is not a preferred profession. What you see on television is not something you want to be part of because its painted in a very negative light currently with viral videos, some of it many policeinvolved shootings that i have seen describe what i know internally most cops know this, everyone is not built to be a cop but theres a percentage of people who joust cant react under pressure and should be weeded out of the profession. We all know that and cops know it but that wont be significant change until protesters become part of the solution much more engaged beyond protests, much more in participation. Thats the recipe. Host im going to ask you about two people who appear in your book, who is d. J. . My son, 28 years old who you everred z unbeknownst of the family and myself from onset bipolar and selfmedicated with marijuana and selfmedicated with marijuana and pcp. And he had a mental episode while i was at charge killed innocent and suburban cop in the dallas areas and was subsequently killed on fathers day. Not just talking about walter williams, my partner in the Police Department killed, my brother killed by gun violence. Is even more so. The deepest pain you can describe. What i found at that time period in my life was the brightest hope that you can ever imagine. For not only my family but other families who suffer with people they love who have Mental Illness. Also bringing together what divides us, i have the hope of that. People who dont see how they can agree on anything, or people on trips, whoever disagrees with the entity, i have hope for that. My hope for all of this is borne out of that deepest despair. That is where you find hope and that is what i described in the book, that gives me a sense of urgency. I retired in time. That is not why you going to Public Service. You going to Public Service to serve people. The next phase in this book is pointed toward bringing people together, Mental Health policy and funding, Police Reform and funding necessary to make it happen and the differences. Using this platform for abc news. For police, in the political system. Cannot sustain itself the way it is going. It has to be something that bridges what has been divided. I hope to be a person who plays a small part in that. Heres the book, it is called called to rise by retired Dallas Police chief david o brown. It is just out in the bookstores. Thank you, appreciate it. You are watching the tv on cspan2, television for serious readers. Here is a look at our primetime lineup. Coming up at 7 00 eastern, peter durant talks about the rise of oil dutch shell. That all happens tonight on cspan2s booktv. Booktv is on twitter followers to get publishing news, scheduling updates, author information and to talk directly with others during life programs. Twitter. Com booktv