Read the book and i have got parts to argue with on that question, men are in trouble. Give us the premise of the disaster. Host men are having a harder time adapting to the economy and women are adapting wisely. I can tell you why. Just to say to this period entry, then as education and credentials of the kami is fastchanging and who knows what its going to throw at us. Women seems to get getting those credentials at a faster rate than men are and they tend to be more nimble and that filters down into our society so in the book i talk about how that changes marriage and fatherhood in what manner he can and cant do in families and how young people have and make decisions and so you really start to see it having an influence in our culture. Host give me some of the numbers. I think many people, we have heard for so many years if theres a crisis with girls and they have to learn differently and not as strong in math and science. I think it will come as a shock to learn that women far out do men and boys in academic performance. Guest i have a daughter and two sons so this plays out in my household but education is the clearest argument. Basically girls do better than boys. Now they had equal s. A. T. Scores in math and they do better in verbal score so it starts out kind of early in life. I think that is largely developmental question likely demand a lot more if younger and younger children and girls develop faster than boys so that is where it starts and what people say his boy start to get a sense of themselves with maybe a little bit of failures in school. Not because they are less smart because boys and grocery lisa marr. It has to do with extra issues like discipline and can you sit still and what our schools are demanding of kids that come more naturally to girls than to boys and i have an addendum to that which i will get to in a minute. Then you move on to Community College and other college so for every two degrees that men get, women get three degrees. That is a huge disparity and they reached parity in the 80s and since then women have been out skirting men. The fact is you do need a College Degree as a prerequisite so michael greenstone who is the white house economist said to me, its simple the economy has been standing at the top of the mountaintop screaming and a loudspeaker, just get a College Degree and you will make our money like its simple to get the degree and you will make our money and as he puts that women hear the call and men dont hear the call. There are probably lots of reasons for that. If you go back to after world war ii and the g. I. Bill, there you have it period of extreme flexibility in men because i talk about men being a little more rigid and maybe women being more flexible and men didnt go to college and they did become farmers and take on all these jobs they hadnt done before. Host after fighting a war. Guest im thinking a lot about why this is true. Is it because women had been the underdogs or they feel a lot of women i talked talk to in the book, they felt like that immigrant drive that they have to get ahead is part of the formula that seems to be moving with them. Maybe that worked for men after world war ii. They were coming back from war and they where like i want to get my job that. People are charging forward for different reasons. Host what is the effect on the employment market . Guest in 2009 women became the majority of the American Workforce which is pretty remarkable. Working women was unusual enough in the 80s and 90s they were like sitcoms. Look how cool it is that women are wearing pantsuits and now women are the majority of the workforce. They became the majority and now its kind of even but still thats pretty remarkable. You have over the course of 40 years, mens wages kind of steadily stagnating and declining for his womens wages are steadily increasing. Men on average still make more but if you look at the charts, the trends are very much like this. And then you no couple that with the types of jobs opening up. So basically the way it works is women with College Degrees enter the workforce in greater numbers and then they open up the kinds of jobs that women used to do for free so that is like childcare and food preparation, service economy, elder care and you have the health care industry. You see its like having this cascading effect where they are opening up more jobs for women and also the axis on a manufacturing era that is the literal interpretation. In the book i do the towns that were archly and depended on manufacturing. This is not a new story. You could be a very prosperous middleclass redlener, head of your household by working as a manager in a factory making 70, 80, 100,000 a a year and had a very good life. That is really not available in in the u. S. Anymore and i think that is really messed up a lot of men and that is really something that men have had a hard time recovering from. Host . [inaudible] guest somebody said something so obvious that i hadnt thought of. And a talent in alabama that i write about you do not call yourself a feminist. They are christians so they dont like the situation where they are suddenly they dont believe they should be the head of their household but they find themselves in this position. They basically started the bottom and weight worked their way up but if you ask someone if he was making a lot of money and doing pretty well to start again in the bottom, thats harder. Its harder for the women for whom even if they dont call themselves feminists and dont want to be in a position, you are suddenly making a paycheck and learning new schools and learning new things about yourself. Thats easier than to ask a guy to start from the bottom again or to say hustle so i got a sense every time that they have been protected in some funny way. I dont we dont think of menace needing help and men dont like to think of themselves as leading help that they were protected in a sense so they didnt have to work that hard. Women have a funny combination of opening Job Opportunities plus the sense that they are behind, since that they really need to hustle and that creates the drive where men feel like there were suddenly whacked in the head. The light that was handed to them was now gone. They dont want to start at the bottom so you have growing numbers of men on disability rolls. People give up after a certain amount of time. They give up and they see their wives are earning money. And the hard part of this, the book is not that triumphalist. There are good things for women impossible good things for men but some of its heartbreaking to watch unfold. Host it sounds like a disaster. Guest it is a disaster in some places but you can imagine a world when i think of my own son, some of this is true. They come from welleducated families and theyre likely to go to college but if what is happening school is true, doesnt happen naturally to them and it does to my daughter to do the things that the school is asking but would it be so bad if when they grew up it was possible for them to be dating or marrying a woman who is making more money than they were in that wouldnt be such a big deal . That seems to be a good thing. There are periods in history where men complain about the pressures of being the breadwinner and why is it always says that has to be the breadwinner . Host so we have had the Current System which you describe and i think most object to the servers would kind of agree. You have the date on your side for sure. But i wonder if that is involved for a reason. Maybe it evolves out of the basic nature of men and the basic nature of women which are not the same. Guest this has been the hardest question for me is the book rolls out, trying to think really hard which i did not resolve in the book about where to sit and . You talk to in alabama when i talked to christian families its easy for them. The man is the head of the household and they had to rethink that a little bit at the man remains the head of the household even he is just the spiritual head of the household or their different ways of interpreting that. Then there is the woman and the childcare question which we havent gotten to yet. At what point do we reach the natural limit . I dont think there is greater room for men to be domestic without being utterly feminizing and domesticated. You dont pass a guy who is taking care of his kids in the park. You shouldnt be thinking what is wrong with that guy . Which in some local society we still do. I dont think theres anything inherent in that. Host are you talking about the weekends or after where . A man who is a stayathome father. Guest or you just pass that guy in the park. You think we will never get to that point. Host im not even at catching a value to it. Im merely noting this liberal world where people think we are entitled to a single happy marriage in which a man is a stay at home dad and his wife is the breadwinner. Guest those that have not chosen to be stayathome dads probably. Host mens understanding of themselves is bound in intrinsically what they do for living in that rose out of their nature. Im not endorsing that. Im just quoting the reality of it. Im just not aware and i know a number of people who have been in that position of a single happy stable marriage where the man stays at home but maybe there are a lot of them. Guest thats interesting. Lets explore that for a minute. Is an important question. Increasingly womens identity are tied up to their work in a way which we may not like and we may find disturbing and unnatural but isnt that true. The mayor who was recently chosen to be when she was visibly pregnant and was asked how much Maternity Leave or you want to take and she said basically none. The fact that such women exist is not the way i would do it. I would take plenty of Maternity Leave but i feel like that is a growing, that is the kind of woman that there can be a base for in the fact that there are some stayathome dads who are happy stayathome dads, this is not limited to Portland Oregon and its okay. Host whose wives affect wife suspect that men are sexually attracted to them. I dont think that couple exists. Guest i did a survey and a thousand people into the survey. The survey was explicitly for breadwinner wives, solicit lead women who make more money than their husbands. These were slate readers which is the magazine that im an editor of. They are more educated than the general population they probably live in more literate urban areas so we are talking about a few samples with the vast majority described themselves as happy. Host thats great. Im not against it. Im just saying its not something ive seen that there are many things i havent seen. Two things, one it is difficult for men, this change of rules is difficult for men man and for another, there is a syndrome where a woman was like a man who is more sensitive, more like her and sort of classic and qualities and when he achieves those qualities she realizes its kind of repulsive actually. Guest is so funny because Kayla Flanigan wrote a story in the atlantic which made this point, how it is to watch them and make lunchboxes. On the other hand there was a funny Washington Post story, which he now talks about all women want for them and to reorganize things in the refrigerator and do the laundry the right way so i dont know where women fall on that question. Somebody asked me this question, what are you exactly saying . Lets say a husband who is the editorinchief of slate tecumseh stay home dad and she said had he feel about that . Are you attracted to him . Im not asking if you think politically thats okay. Host we are talking on a visceral level. Guest what is your response to that and ive really heard that i think if he was happy and fulfilled and wasnt miserable i feel the same way as i do about stayathome moms. They are some stayathome moms who are having to defend their situation and are really unhappy and feel selfconscious and i dont think, that doesnt seem a natural for me where there are some who are utterly fulfilled than their stayathome dads but i had a couple of stayathome dads in my preschool. One of the moves ahead to make around this particular stayathome dad who was making handprint tshirts and i was startled by that. There was a visceral reaction we have to that but he he was was fun and he plays it plays music with his kids. Host some are happy that i wonder how true it is. I notice that no matter how involved and aggressive the woman says she is, if she asks you where would you like to go to dinner tonight and you give an insight she resents it. Every woman ive ever met wants you to save guest is that true . I dont like indecisive people. I think there are some women who like to wear the pants in the family. I think there can be more of a cultural phase of the man doesnt i was on a series of radio shows and the men were like i am psyched. If my wife wants to earn a lot of money so i can stay home, rock on. But you still dont feel like we have gotten to the visceral attraction level. We can cover the cultural acceptance. We can cover the this sort of economic flexibility that we will still be left with host we are going to fall up against human nature at some point. I is a libertarian minded i dont judge them. As long as they arent hurting anyone great i dont judge you but i also wonder about the systems that have been in place in roughly the same shape for millennia and you ask yourself why is that . Maybe because they are outgrowths of things that we cant change and things that are in eight. Guest i read all those books. The female mind in the male mind, it said like an invention to me. Host we have to keep inventing it in every culture . Guest yeah because physical strength is a fact of the male and it has been for a long time so anything that grows out of physical strength. I do find women the men are not providers and just another mouth to feed. I know this is insulting to men that ive heard that line. Host there are those men out there for sure. Guest there are a lot of men that they women dont want to marry because they are not providers the protectors they draw the line. When i say what is the man good for . He will protect me. If theres an emergency he will come and protect me so when it comes down, not to the stayathome dad that the physical protection which is different than economics, providers. Is physical protection like i want a man to kind of the there in case of an emergency but thats not the same as if he works and identifies with this job. Host but i wonder if its purely physical. You know, i wonder, you open the book with a really Interesting Exchange with a woman you met on the shore here i think in washington who is their shopping with her daughter and you asked simply, where is the man in your life . She simply said i dont want him around. He just takes up resources. Understand the guy sounds like a total loser, but she sounds like shes in a tough spot. That doesnt see my progress. Seems like something very depressing. Guest i dont think thats progress. You want to end up in a situation where men and women need each other. Im not sure if it needs to be an evolutionarily adaptive and a 40000yearold way to you dont want to end up in a situation where more classes of Society People are not getting married. I personally dont care if people get married but then it has to be the european way where they live together or support each other or in the same household but not necessarily married. Americans are very into marriage so we get married and when we dont get married it looks dysfunctional and it means that you are not really supporting the family and not helping out. Host why is that . Guest i think that men are not working and i think the women, its like okay im sorry i misunderstood the question. Why do americans have a preference for marriage . We are conservatives effectively and more religious than other cultures. Host so there is no specific reason . Guest i think europeans and raise Children Together without getting married. You are asked me specifically why do we like marriage . We have high marriage rates and high divorce rates and we have the kind of, we work out a lot of Family Structures around marriage annulled way that a lot of cultures if you say you live in washington you say anything goes. We get married and we like marriage. In fact the College Educated classes are an extremely conservative traditional moment. Host poor people do not. Guest is like a luxury of the rich. Host there is overwhelming traditional americanstyle marriage no matter who is the breadwinner is the optimum way the optimum environment on average to raise children. Guest in america. The other countries have come up with perfectly viable other models like swedish couples, european progressive couples dont really get married but they Stay Together. Host unmarried couples Stay Together on average for a less long period of time. Guest in america because we like marriage. We will have what is called a marriage goround. This is the most interesting book on marriage today, culture that is always ending marriage. We have a turnaround culture around marriage if you are not rich whereas stability of union is america isnt a marriage but in other countries its not really. Host where does all of this leave children . Guest it depends which children. The children of the elite now, which is so she logically defined as College Educated i think are in a pretty good. Met. We are now. Back in which children pay an excessive amount of attention. We are in a hyperparenting moments where even the women are working these days they are spending more time with their children than they did 30 years ago and i think fathers are more involved in that class of society. Im sure youre not a father in the same way your father was. My husband is certainly more involved in the children than my own father was so the expectations or father or greater. I think its a good moment and your parents are much less likely to divorce them more likely to stave marriage. If you are a month a College Educated you are in a good spot and as a child i would say but if you are not then you are in a much worse but then you were 20 years ago particularly if you are a boy because your fathers less likely to be around and be involved in your life and in fact your parents what is becoming entrenched which is one thing i describe, your parents are investing in a child is like an economic position so parents, or mothers rather make the decisions in that daughters are more successful in school and therefore more likely to invest in daughters and send them to college. What used to be trimmed the reverse, this is how you get entrenched matriarch, people decide that daughters will be more successful so they put money into their daughters basic in the mothers tend to be a role model for the daughter. Host the definition has weakened the traditional family. Guest in certain segments of society. In the College Education is drink is marriage. Is made possible for people not to be stuck in certain roles. I think of these people guess the reason marriages are happier now because in the book i call it though theoretically nobody stuck in a certain role so the woman feels like she can be making more money. The obamas have the marriage and the bite and. Barack was in law school and now shes the first lady and he is the president. Theoretically people can flipflop. The clintons to some respect have that kind of marriage. I think that takes the pressure off of the marriage say the marriage that one read about in 1952 where woman felt unfulfilled and that man felt there was a news around his neck. That model of marriage has moved up a little bit and created fairly happy stable marriages. Host i wonder about kids. There are clearly more kids in daycare, small children in daycare now than were 40 years ago. Is that a good thing for kids . Guest scandinavian countries, children go to daycare when they are one and mother stayed home. I dont think thats necessarily a bad thing. The surveys are pretty politically neutral. They only measure americans, how much time you spend on leisure activity and how much time you spend with your kids. Parents spend more time at their children now than they did in the 60s and 70s. Dont ask me how. Host but there is still, im pretty sure the date is poor at this point, moore 1yearold yearold kids in daycare today than there were at say 50 years ago and im wondering how one could argue that is a good thing . Guest guest i dont know. I dont know what the data shows about whats wrong with children. Children. I dont necessarily think theres anything wrong with children being in daycare or having babysitters. That is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. If you have a child in daycare from 9 00 to 5 00, if you have a decent it depends on the daycare. My children go to preschool at say and its a lovely preschool with a lot of teachers and they are there until men or 2 00 and these things are not necessarily bad or necessarily good. Host i guess watching for children its hard to imagine that a 1yearold child is going to be cared for as well by strangers as he is by his mom. Guest i dont think the problem for a place like collegeeducated parents is that we neglect our children. In we in fact have that kind of endtoend parenting culture right now. Whether we make our children do too many activities that i think largely what we see is apparent invest a huge amount in their children. Like you know you see that magnet era where women spend a lot of time with their children and they generally neglect their children as they are sent bending a lot of time with their children. The fact is, parents what do i know about what women did with their children than . We make sure they are okay and we make sure they are in a lot of activities. We spend a lot of time with their children. That is some large pressure. I think it comes maybe from a sense of kind of guilt or changing robles and the fact that we worry a lot and so the more women work, the more people worry a lot about it or go the kinds of things you are expressing. They come home and worry about their children. Like we invest a lot in spend a lot and life is complicated and children are overscheduled and all that. If anything i would say the children have more. This is the character building argument. We could use more time for children to worry about themselves and take care of themselves rather than their parents managing but i mean, what i do talk about in the book is what happens a lot with working women and breadwinner women. Women dont tend to give up well rounds were made give up new realms. Women are doing a lot at work that also managing the domestic space so even these women whose husbands are home during the day by kind of take over when they get home. Its just something that women tend to do. Host create a man without his own sphere. Guest it creates a lot of pressure on the woman and a lot of confusion. One of the the men that interviw calls his wife and overinvolved absentee boss. He never feels like he can completely on that round whereas the women are sort of tinkering. Host getting back to my point about emasculation. Every person i would say, especially men, need to do something they feel the master of. No one is as good at this design. Guest i would say that about most women. Host thats actually right. Guest i can name a handful of state home moms who dont have some kind of anxiety about that. There are some who do. There are some who are utterly fulfilled and i think this is a good example because we live in washington. They are fantastic and totally fulfilled but also a large majority think either they feel judged because i work or what do i know but if we go by the sample that we know you have to shake out a little bit by saying its not an entirely settled space. Host i agree. I think that men are more fragile than women in this regard. Guest in the regard of needing their to come from the public sphere. When i interview younger couples what i found as they operate on a much cleaner slate then you and i do so they actually generally have removed the sense of gender from a lot of these rules. They will say things to me, which in college maybe i was then equality feminists moment with in college in the 90s that we have the general idea that we would both work and both raise the children and it would d50 50 so i find the people in their 20s and 30s who interview who are rising in some profession that i write about in the book, they will say whoever is going to be the breadwinner at that moment. When i asked them about their future plans they will say oh yeah whoevers the breadwinner at that time. They talk about it like a theater role. One or the other person can jump into it. Its much cleaner than when i was in college. Host i grew up in a very liberal place and i didnt have these assumptions about gender roles at all. I didnt think i would stay home and have kids. I was totally openminded about it and in fact i post my ideas honestly which is not reading about them from some theoretical process. But what works and makes people happy. Guest as i take my own life which i write about a little bit in the book, i do some some things like the people i write about. I had to finish a chapter of a book frankly so as i watched him gather the kids together and go off with his brother and sisterinlaw in my head i was running for all the things he was doing wrong. He wasnt packing this and wasnt doing it exactly the way i did it so i dont know is that is a natural thing. Maybe thats like nagging. If i kept my mouth shut and didnt do anything say anything. It was fine and it didnt matter that the children didnt have this book or that and it didnt matter at all. Maybe people invent new ways of doing things and thats okay. Host i doubt that there is a mother in the world of would have had those thoughts of maybe those thoughts are growing out of something that hasnt change. Guest why can a change . There are so many things we thought of in human nature. We thought that women shouldnt work and we have described human h. Are so many things of women that trampled on over the course of this country and not so much with men which is one of the phenomenon i described. Bleep out women working with Young Children is unnatural and so we have laws that said that shouldnt happen. Women making more money than a man was unnatural because of course the man had to be the breadwinner. We thought many things over the century were unnatural and i hear you there may be a point where something really is unnatural but i dont think we know that and i dont think we have reached that point. I think we have lie to ourselves about that a lot. Host i think we apply to ourselves and the other direction. I was pretty openminded about the nature verges versus nurture. Kids are actually supportive like they are and a lot of that is guest well i dont know. Host there are many factors. But it is a factor. What her innate differences . Guest . Guest i dont know. Honestly i have read these books. Part of my research for the book was to sit down with the male brain in the female brain and the men are like this. These convincing argument seemed to be that we have a huge amount more in common than we have that is different and whatever is different between men and women is not so ingrained as to determine complicated decisions like are you going to go to college . Who are you going to marry . These are complex decisions and if you look at other countries, people think the men are symptom advisers and women are empathizes. That is one difference between men and women. I will tell you i have two sons. One of them is exclusively obsessed with trucks and cars in the other one is abutting Computer Programmer wheres my daughter spends a lot of time reading. Have i succeeded in unscrambling gender roles . Now i have not succeeded in unscrambling gender roles. Does that mean anything in the future about the decisions they make and have a marry . It probably means something but it doesnt determined these vast social changes that we see in our world. Doesnt mean my daughter, you can state cajon it means something but it does mean a huge amount. That is where i come down on. Host it just seems like history is littered with all sorts of experiments in which the designers of the experiments per claim and into the old way of doing things in the beginning of the a new way of doing things. In and including the french revolution and the pol pot regime, and also the more benign movements like feminism, and the end people sort of refer to the way they really are. Guest know. No, i so disagree. I would say people move a fast way along the continuum. Men and women over 100 years have changed, women especially fastly. Compared to the way they used to be and you might be right but i dont know where it is. This idea that women cant do math and science. If you go to Eastern Europe or asia, women do math and science and engineering find there. Is that womens empathizing brains can handle that . We dont know so lets try that experiment. Try the experiment for any social expectation which are usually influential in how they behave. And then we will see. In 100 years we will get to the point where we are like do you know what . I cannot be attracted to this kind of man and i cannot be attracted to this kind of woman. Host how are we doing as far as female philosophers . Guest guest what do you mean . I thought it was going to be you can get me with silicon valley. There are other professions where its sure that american women at least dont like flock to. Host so given that women are doing so well, you said and again you have proved it to lease to my satisfaction, are beating men in virtually every important category. Why do we have affirmative action for women . Guest i thought you were going to its me why arent their female precedence . That is what my husband says. Wheres the female president . Host if the trend to describe in your book are real, of course that will happen. Its great. Why is it that we have this massive apparatus still in place and in the federal and State Government level that treats women as underperforming victims of the patriarchate . We give them preference in hiring in federal contracting. Guest lets lets go casebycase. I will take the universitys first. They are, i think there is quietly affirmative action for men and we just dont talk about it and done it that it. So you have to go casebycase. In the workplace, there are lots of ways, merely because i described the phenomenon and women are rising in the workforce, there is a parallel thing of sort of how women get paid and how they negotiate and where they start on the ladder and how they are treated in the workforce and whether not we have the trinity needs. Those questions are totally not settled. Women are rising and setting down roots on getting the structure and education they need at the workforce doesnt necessarily clap their hands and welcome the men. There is a lot of inequality in the workforce. Host let me give you a really simple one. The Small Business administration gives loans to Small Businesses and under the Obama Administration which has been three and a half years, exactly the period where it has become really obvious that women are women. That administrative expanded the category of businesses that received preferential loans, tax dollars if they are owned by women. Now since women are winning, how the hell are we doing that . Guest Small Businesses art different than workplaces. Places that are totally financed law firms. Those places i feel like do not acknowledge the rights of women or take it into account. Why are you giving me that look . Small businesses a different question. I wish i knew more. Host but the principle remains, women are succeeding and men are failing. The federal government gives preference to women. Guest what do you mean . Women are starting at the places where i describe. Women still get underpaid. They are just creeping their way out. You could be ahead and still be treated unfairly. I dont think those things are necessarily having anything to do with each other. How is it that we have a work horse for women are the majority and we dont have any Maternity Leave. That does make any sense to me so its not likely as although the issues merely because women on their own one at a time are acting like immigrants. No we dont have any legislation. Host is required by the love. Guest there is no other country where that is true. Host the First AmendmentFirst Amendment or bill of rights. That is not much of an argument. You have an aston answer my question which is you have established a trendlines. So why would we be giving preference to the group that is succeeding . Why are we giving preference to the group that is failing quest. Guest because every woman is succeeding on her own despite the fact that the workforce doesnt give any allowance to like you know children or the other things that women have to do or humane life in america. I feel like just because women are succeeding though its like women are basically like immigrants, each one charging forward and doing their individual thing. I would say despite the fact host you were comparing their experience to immigrants when actually it was the headwinds that they face. Guest yes, i think those things are tied together but i dont think its like we should end all those. I think its because in some sense women have to have a lot to prove in more things they had to get over. Look, we are uncomfortable with female power. Do you think there will be a female president tomorrow . And every psychological study you have a woman who straightforwardly reads the same script as a man and say i would like a raise because i think i deserve a raise and she gets penalized. We havent obviously worked out all the questions yet. [laughter] host at i will get off this one but tell me the point at which we can say women have succeeded and we can take our thumb off the scale and create an equal Playing Field . At the federal level where government intercede with the privatesector . Guest do you want me to name host why should affirmative action guest when you can as a class measure women so not as an individual woman but as a class, to see that they will work roughly equivalent numbers of hours and get paid roughly equivalent hours for roughly equivalent jobs. Host what are roughly equivalent hours . We would have to have massive changes for that to happen because we are not even close. Guest we take out the hours. The problem with the wage gap, meant women work fewer hours so that is not that greater the measure of equality. Women work fewer hours so you are taking women on aggregate so lets take that off the table. We will say roughly equivalent jobs get paid roughly equivalent of mounts. Where there is a small gap now but not a huge gap. Right now theyre still a gap even if you take the same number of hours for the same job between men and women, there is a smallcap which has to be a lag in determination are the fact that women dont feel comfortable asking for raises. There are still some cultural factors. Host so because women dont feel comfortable asking for raises i merely quoting you. Because women dont feel comfortable asking for wages the federal government should penalize male Small Businesses . Guest do you think there is note discrimination . Host that is not the point im making. Im making the argument that the federal government shouldnt be discriminating against men in this allocation of loans or federal highway contracts or the other things that the government did do these. Men are in serious trouble. I hate affirmative action in all its forms. Guest look, you are taking a tiny government program. I can say the same thing to you about disability. There are more massive Government Programs which tend to labor men or encourage certain behaviors of men. College admissions came up with intelligent affirmative action programs that were generally doing it and you just dont believe in any kind of affirmative action. Host here is the only point im making. From the action programs are not tiny. Relative to the federal budget, the Small Business administration but it pervades government. And it feels wrong at a time, just behind the conclusions of your book which i bayh buy completely. As a matter of policy discriminating against by the government into which they pay. Guest you have a son that saying you have a daughter. Host i have three daughters. Guest lets say your son received affirmative action in college because men were not getting in and they were about to be class that is very unequal and this is a private college in your son receives a leg up basically because he is a boy. Host i dont believe in that in all and i agree youre absolutely right there is affirmative action in college that helps boys. I think there is a moral difference between affirmative action practiced by the privatesector institution and that practice by the government. Government reforms to all citizens so shouldnt be discriminating. Guest i would say its more the governments responsibility to watch out for people who might need a leg up as long as you do it intelligently. Host then given that, why should the institute today on the basis of your findings radical affirmative action programs for men and . Guest what would that look like in america . Host look at what we have now. Giving them preferences in hiring and preferences in federal contracts when some men are out of for . Guest it depends on what industry. You can sledgehammer affirmative action for anyone so. There was a part of me that wish we did not send the factories out some nice sweatshirt is 3 cheaper at walmart. I did not think that was the tradeoff. Weve traded identity and pride for 80 per switcher. That would be the held by what except essential affirmativeaction four med. Host so giving preference to businesses owned by men with a High School Degree . Guest manufacturing. Host nursing . It is dominated by women. So was education. In Rural Communities schools and hospitals are the only stable jobs. Why not . There dominated by women with head of household and pathologies that flows from that. Why wouldnt make sense half of all nurses are men . And teachers . Guest that would be great. It would change the cultural factor around the job. Right now then that i interviewed do not find those to be macho even though a secretary was explicitly of man and then it becomes female. Women can go into the maledominated positions. Men are not. I would be just as happy for him to put in my catheter because especially in a small manufacturing towns they have hospitals and schools. That is easy. If we gave men free tuition for the local hospital would get behind that program. Host that would be grotesque and the little lame but my willingness to follow. We will probably not do that. Or not accept it. Guest i do not agree with that. Host there is no debate. Why is it the grandsons of rich people not always but unimpressive and drug . Not a phenomenon you have noticed . But the trend line is negative. Guest is a sense of entitlement. People ask me our bet inherent the inflexible . No. They have been. Wire all the men in your book couch potatoes . There is a little bit of rigid this. It would be better to would mitt they need things. And the spawn of the rich people, when things are handed to you it is hard to be flexible. Host exactly. What do you do about been . When they collapse and hurts when men and children for sure. I know you are not gloating over the end of the men. Although it is the title of your book. Guest no. You hope they adapt to flexibility to do jobs they do not consider macho. Host sock it up . Guest people read that story. That did have been. Some percentage became teachers especially and nurses. But teachers solve the problem with the ways and school. Host what about those nine wussy men . I am kidding. [laughter] host at. Guest it would be fabulous. The people start to come up with creative solutions. In the manufacturing economy that do not require them to become women. Dwight hightech that requires a degree but not spend your life in school. Factories are more complicated than they used to be. Go half way. Get the credentials for new factory assistance. That is one who fault exit path. Another path is called cardis and manufacturing. One man in my book makes specialized structures. It happens in brooklyn and alabama up. I got the most moving email from a man and glass blowing per cry cannot find good men. This is a good paying job. I have a factory i could hire 30 and i cannot find any men to do this job. Host craftsmanship this honorable. And impressive. But traditionally a masculine traits that is that castrating attitude. That is from the title alone. When you put together a book and go chapter by chapter you dont realize the aggregate by the end you think what is wrong with being a man . We dont all have to be women in the end. I think guys dont have this problem. Maybe they sense it but deepen their hearts they dont feel that way but for progressives their stock in a funny moment. Like quotation marks you are not allowed to be the boss on 30 rock. He is a joke. One guy in my book who is progressive works in the creative economy. I see this day at home dad and i shudder. I cannot be him. Although i believe in him. I want him to exist politically. I do not want to be him. Host your wife will have contempt for you. She well. You dont have to chew tobacco or brick courses but if he were in divisive and wheat. Guest wait a minute. You will get a load. Host i am not equating being a father is indecisive four week but overly feminized men. Guest why is taking care of your children seven and . Host not talking about child raising. The progressive guy with the gender neutral pronoun. Guest does the duet for you . We can take on roles that are feminine. Host of women are all about the new role rules. 50 shades of grey feminist utopia in the end she just wants to be spanked. Guest i feel the same about the contraception debate. Host a bestseller with women and college campuses. Guest theres a lot of nostalgia. [laughter] host come on. They have never experienced it to 140 world that is leading us. Levying us. We entering another world. Host you dont think that it something deep . We have an ad and movies where women are killers. Just like the hunger games. The protector, provider comment killer. And the guy is waiving to understand a crowd. With the stereotypes the book is as extreme as a killer. Host en mayo audience for 50 shades of grey is zero. Me. I found it totally erotic completely aimed at women. I want to understand women better. I love them. I have three daughters. But the other novel was aimed at both sexes. I still think it is worth thinking through why progressive in light and women love a book about a do that likes to spank. Guest that book is ridiculous he does not exist. If one preserves in a fantasy, that is mine. Host how does that even appeal to a woman . Of what is going on beneath the surface. Guest with 50 shades of grey that fantasy has persisted through all areas of feminism. That is a fantasy because i have a chapter with the hook up coulter and sex. That is the persistent fantasy that has not waned their feminism. Host that should tell you something. [laughter] it is not as simple. I will be the mom. And a desire. The sex is a window into how we feel. Guest sex is a window into sacks. The world can change over our heads and we can continue to feel that way about sex. That it is a possibility. Host i think it is a little deeper than that. I see what you are saying. Guest how did we get to this point . [laughter] host i disagree with some conclusions but i really enjoyed your book. Unfortunately think you are right. Guest i am sorry. Host your book the end of men and the rise of women