[applause] i suspect there are some of you here with the review of books that we call the new york review of each other's books. the current issue has from the john hof ken's press some of the recent publications untitled confront a history. not the easiest thing to do. history is not an exact science in my relationship with contemporary students i am learning that they have quite a different perspective than i had growing up in a school. i was reading history. and now questions are being asked because history is not the exact science but it evolves and shifts and changes over the years particularly with respect to wars we see them early with the more patriotic memory with more perspective as time goes on sometimes it is there a controversial but that is history. is a changing process. people are beginning to understand that. but what james farwell has done here with the objective history certainly about certain parts of the world the main theme to stresses that history matters. and what jim has done here his present a history of pakistan very, very much needed in this day and time because it will become more and more of a controversial question. i have military officers who serve on the ground to see the consequences that are warning us asking us to take a look at history. those who are more chauvinistic not trying to make any case that that is why i was attracted to this. it is for what is ahead of us in terms of discussion and debate in that part of the world. he looks at it that way but now james farwell is the unusual character week med did that taxicab waterway to a hearing on a way to this and that we worked for president nixon. and i was on dead j. edgar hoover and the list and we had different backgrounds and i discovered he has a play sometime next year in london but also he has worked a strategic communications our strategic understanding. that is why this book is so important part of it does not argue one way or the other but just as the american public to listen to the debate that is ahead of us. so i salute and congratulate jim and the rest of us for having this effort with this troubled parts of the world with a more sense of debate. say he for this very important to work james farwell. [applause] >> >> the key for the introduction and now we can all go home. you have heard all of the great things. joe was gracious enough to vote right to a wonderful introduction to this book that was a lot of fun to write. one of the people here today must be acknowledged in the back of the room and is hiding from me but from the middle east institute, books like this man people like me are lucky enough are lucky enough to meet people like him in others. it was a peer review very extensively by great people. mr. when bob was the chief reader for the book and also richard is kind of to say nice words on the back general scott and general daily there is the enormous sense of relief i finish the book then to general daily as sir richard and say look at the book they say this will be a great book some day. rewrite it. [laughter] one goes through the process then eventually we finish the book. in the very tough taskmaster to make sure i can get right. but it with my background of lawyer and a political consultant, and became involved with the pentagon after 9/11 because people wanted me to look at what the pentagon was doing from the point* of view of a political consultant one thing led to another now almost all my time is devoted to national security. i am interested in how political players use communication to compete for power and how they use communication to consolidate their grip on power. through that dimension that this book examines what makes pakistani politics click. what i learned from local elections and i have done the same thing abroad but those of us to do campaign is what politicians say in public in do in public matters a lot more than what they do our say in private. as an example all of us are watching what is going on with the iowa primary is. who will win the republican nomination for president. you don't need to be in the backroom with mitt romney o.r. rick perry to figure out the dynamics. we can all look at it by watching television that is not apply to every kid to the most entries one of the very few things that most elections around the world are handled by american political consultants. we export our movies and our political consultants. i'm not sure about the value but that is what we do. that is the dimension to which i looked at this and i was also very interested to write the book with the events of 2011 where their current status of pakistani politics. what is the impact of the attack on bin laden not only in pakistan but the dynamic between the united states this and has been very complicated over many decades. one of the conclusions that i reach and i should say my remarks today will not regurgitate what is in the book. it is available as a christmas present commandeers president, easter present i would not want to derive at the pleasure by would talk about that in sight of my research but one thing that strikes me about the post bin laden era at in pakistan is the politics there today are very much the effect of disorganize politics and has very talented people but they give his country the pakistani is get credit for the extra their energy and the amount of talent that the people of that great country have. i have a lot of respect for pakistan. one of the things that is interesting is it does not have strong national identity that has bred a culture of conspiracy in betrayal and a sense of blaming extra influences of which they have no control for their own problems. this of sex in a dramatic way the way people have use communication to the advance their own ambition to undercut those or their adversaries it is a very interesting dynamic that takes place it in pakistan. when you look at the big not an attack did teh's crystallize the nature of the politics at this and the differences the way u.s. looks at things and pakistan. for example, ms. canty said we would track down bin laden no matter how long it took. and if americans had two words that summarized the results of the attack on bin laden, a mission accomplished. they have had a completely different reaction showing 55 percent of pakistan as bought the attack on been lauded killing him was a bad thing. that is not because they think that by lead to extremism is a good thing. but overwhelming margins polling consistently shows to buy land extremism. escalating into hostility what they perceive as american interference so from the mayor can point* of view for the attack on bin laden was a great success from the of pakistani point* of view puts them into a untenable position that they did not know bin laden was there than they looked incompetent and ignorant if they did now than they were composite nobody likes to be put in that position and from the pakistani point* of view it is the latest in a series of breaches of pakistani sovereignty. they are very proud people. they resent what they perceive i am not offering editorial comments this simply saying that this is a country with 180 million people. 100 warheads setter nuclear. to countries that very nearly went to war with india as recently as 2002 and a thanks to the work from the state department the u.s. play dead decisive role to cool off attitudes to help to avert a conflict that had been long brewing into something that was out of control. it is important we understand what makes pakistani politics tick because we have to engage. cannot edt in pakistan is not a prudent option in my opinion. that is one take away i would like to leave with you. what this book did was to examine the dynamics to look at it through the stories of to particular colorful individuals. benazir bhutto, the former prime minister and the other is prove it -- pervez musharraf who would now like to go back to pakistan in march to be president again. pakistan says if he shows back up he will be arrested now he is raising money doing better than any republican candidate for president. but in looking at the stories and how they used communication to get when each one did you get to an interesting feel for the dynamics of the pakistani politics and all of this exist on top of other types of analysis. pakistan is a very complex and conservative societies dominated forever by a feudal aristocracy it is tied together through kinship the dynamics are governed by tribes in leadership's and the pakistan people's party israeli aid her family dynasty and in talking about pakistan that only gets you so far but how people deal with each other you have to look at how many have use communication leg you would in other countries to see what is going on. let's start with benazir which is how she is referred to by everybody because the bhutto family a has enormous influence mini an extended family use the name of that it is easy to understand her father was probably the most famous politician but benazir is a fascinating person i thought she was very striking and 70 who stood out. she was the clearest of political figure 72 from early age had the power to change people's attitudes about her and of themselves and a somebody you at the height of her political career managed to do something that is very rare in the muslim world, to be a powerful and eloquent voice for democratic and religious tolerance she wrote two autobiographies one daughter of the east in the other reconciliation which contains radius how western and each year it -- eastern culture is a muslim culture is could be reconciled but it what is important as a political figure is through her career whether in washington and where you would expect her to say things that are pro-democracy but in the east she was consistent with their advocacy of these ideals pressure was forceful, eloquent and courageous. and the my friend walter isaacson and who is doing wonderful things with his latest book on steve jobs. he was at oxford with her. i was chatting with walter. i ask what did you think she was like? was struck further most of you looked in her eyes there's more courage, determination, she was warm and interesting but it she saw herself as a figure of destiny to succeed at the things that she wanted to do and wanted to make a difference at oxford she became the first asian woman to be elected head of the oxford union. i went to cambridge so you looked down at those people but and rightly so. [laughter] but i cannot help but if they went to the melamine university but to be elected president huffington was one and then benazir became president at oxford is a simple achievement and it really does matter in a glenn traditionally you that the automatic invitation and one of the major political parties and that she was the reverend in interesting person perfectly happy to intervene in the pakistani politics but equally comment -- comfortable with american politics whenever first abates is one she was debating richard nixon making the statement america george washington startup the president here refused to tell a lie abed now they had a president who could not tell the truth. the point* is this is somebody who had opinions and was not afraid to express them but equally she was not always totally serious. to propose debate topics this house would rather roxanne role. she was not surprisingly a very charismatic person and very popular. she goes back to pakistan where her father is a prime minister and arrives at the point* where her father is facing problems with the military and pakistan something that is familiar but important to stress, as the power in that country does not rest within the elected civilian government. it rest with the military and that has been true since pakistan was formed. her father was mince raising her i've not his band you cannot deny his billions of populace 21 could argue embraced socialist policies after all had gone to school is in california where you pick these things up being from mexia and i have to laugh then was in me saying politician and a populist who never failed to put together a populist parties and he could have a political base from which to operate. but he understood the necessity to have army chief of staff he could trust and the intelligence services were wary because to put it mildly he was as though by sucker punched him a as the army chief of staff because he looked like a conservative general who would not get anything done done, what does he have to fear? everything he would stage a coup after a snap election was called on the fisa of the intelligence services. this is tantamount to obama allow wayne herman cain to decide his political strategy for reelection. it was not one of the smartest things and as soon as the coup was staged they instituted a dictatorship aimed to at making a more radical form of islam, than and a lot of the land and realizing that bhutto would not go way that is the difference between this country and pakistan. if you run for president and you lose come a two things have been for you should make note of this. you get at talk show. second, you get a best seller. if you wonder how to succeed with the typical american success story is to run for president. with pakistan bad thing this could happen you could be a killer forced into exile. they probably would have exiled him but they knew he would not disappear from the scene but he staged the trial and accused bhutto of murder not too late did he understand his life was really in danger somebody interviewed him in prison and said what you doing? he said i'm spending my time reading about the napoleon figure but it had a tragic outcome because of what was enacted of judicial murder the court convicted him of much of -- murder so he was among them perpetrated the most awful cruelty use on benazir put into prison on the most hideous conditions. what is interesting is the fortitude in courage benazir dressed this horse ship it would broker killed most individuals but truly a woman of courage truly determined to 26 cdn fell whenever destiny she had envisioned for herself and thanks to the ambassador to blow the whistle on the karzai eight election fraud he helped to get her release from prison book of. after exile now we learned something else about the nature of the pakistani politics that you have this curious alternation the military has contempt for civilian leadership from a military point* of view the concept is we are professional you are promoted on merit, not of patronage civilians are corrupt all they do is by political power to decide how they divide the spoils so we have to come back to do the right they for pakistan. that is their attitude. one must understand how they look at life but he is killed in a mysterious plane crash and they decided this time to hold elections so benazir returns home and once again she is 35 years old. 35. at my age i think they are in high school which is probably a function of what happens when you grow older people look much younger than they are but to go back into the country, the history her family has had knowing the intelligence services are out to get her takes courage. to put this into context, if you look at people who dress up blue jeans" end quote. two jd varo or be a part of the protest it is easy to say there is said dissident who was to stand up against the establishment recall that cheap signal. there is a big difference between talking about changing a government and preaching the need for a transformation and put your life on the line going into a very hostile situation to risk your life to fight for something you want to believe them. it is not enough to say of course, if it is this country and you can get a talk show you're like the two be killed if you're not careful. that says something about what walter said earlier this being a woman of steel and i think she showed this through her career. she is welcomed by millions of people and outfoxes the intelligence service that out itself with its imagination trying to maligned heard good name. a fact she was a woman was counted against her. her husband, the current president has the moniker the press constantly quote. there have been some wonderful books lately one of the interesting things is a lot of journalist just assume that the kiss he is called mr. 10 percent that is because somehow he had a reputation for being corrupt when he came back but the fact is that his election as mayor devised by the pakistani intelligence services. that is how the intelligence services discredit people they want to new discredit to accuse them of being corrupt in the society that most to believe is corrupt. whether as a dowry is there is not i don't know. what is important is it is part of the currency of the discourse. depending upon how you use the charges like better how one response to charges like that affects your ability to exercise political power so again, my book looks at that from my point* of view but benazir had to put up with all of this and one and was lucky. in this case we had the unusual able ambassador he went with her to talk to the generals because although she had won the election the last thing they had been a complete set to miss or the 35 year-old to become prime minister. it took a lot of negotiating and u.s. pressure which helped to persuade the pakistani military to take office. they impose conditions as she could not interfere with the military or afghanistan and had to stay out of the secret nuclear program. but the letter take power. they then use all of their influence, of this is a great story. to go private lot of the talented people she might have brought into government. 35 years old and takes office and walks into almost a bare office and she is very clever. would you do 35 years old prime minister but countries like pakistan and not sure what to do? it is easy to say i want to be president or prime minister but then you have to do -- figure out what to do. she went to england to downey street and not destruction on how to run a parliamentary government. very ingenious for her to do. an example of her resourcefulness that she continued to display throughout her life. during the first 10 years on prime minister she got more done in her critics saw and could repeal the four parts of the law that made it very difficult not only for a woman who was raped to complain about it but to put them into the check box because if you complain your rate without witness is then they put you in jail for adultery with all of the punishments. it was a terrible hanna-barbera:00. she did not have the political guts to repeal that inevitably the military gets rid of her and you see the musical chairs taking place between her and omar sharif to lose more pro-business compared to benazir who is more populist new the wind got on well with the military but the point* of benazir this is somebody who refused to take no for an answer so the next time there was an office she came right back in won again and this continues through all of these things somebody who has the resolve to do something. now let's stop for a minute to talk about pervez musharraf became president as a result of a soft to from 1999 the army chief of staff who did not dead along with shrieve who was a prime minister at the time he literally tried to kill him because when his plane was coming back it was not landing right and running at a fuel and would have crash landed a set musharraf thought quickly and those generals who knew him figure out what was on in -- going on they manage to save the situation when he is ejected into exile in musharraf takes power as a liberal autocrat whatever that means though some ways they have to say he is more liberal minded that he was not the absolute dictator but musharraf is an interesting example of the kind of people that could be produced in pakistani politics also an object lesson for anybody looking at any situation around the world where the military asserts itself. here is one precept to take very few generals make the transition from success in the military to be the leader of a democratic state. i can only think of three in the last 100 years. it is a very rare thing but the policies that make you the effective military leader are different from those qualities that you need to lead a democratic government. some musharraf from the beginning ran into trouble but the problem with taking power is you don't have the legitimacy and what is the one thing that you want to fronting the country? legitimacy and musharraf was never willing to put it to a vote to and you never really was in charge of the country they gave him that legitimacy which was too bad because he would have one the open and fair election he was a patriot and the idea less. in my buckeye talk about several instances halide examine how he used communication how he dealt with a coupon and how he dealt with each other he was billy with his use of communication to segregate on from the media because he knew purposely well that khan had not acted on his own behalf. when you talk about khan is the idea he was a rogue operator who went off to traffic and nuclear materials in weapons. at all times the actor with the knowledge and consent of intelligence services the types of things he took out the most closely guarded insulation were things that did not just walk out in the middle of the night with the most precious guarded secrets the country had. pocket that was a problem because the posture was read the military, the government, i never involved in nuclear proliferation. that is khan doing bad things. he had to find a way to protect the military and this book explains how he did that. he was very clever and imaginative in the ways he conceived of the strategy and executed it to protect pakistan's interest which meant not being completely truthful about the united states win he deals with benazir as she seeks power now going forward what will he do? abizaid jockey for power they have strummed liabilities but in the country was tired of having musharraf as the chief of state. he disliked benazir be he was term meted the constitution that he kept looking for a way around that but how he did that was he makes the mistake to get embroiled with the judiciary and that sense lawyers into the street. when you have thousands of lawyers and darks truths rite aid then you know, you have very middle-class can new jersey the concept of sending lawyers to the street most of us have and bars and restaurants but the bar association has set a great history of social activism and how musharraf tried that the two do with that is important. then he negotiates with benazir who has problems. she wants to be prime minister but also a term limited as she had to returns and there is criminal charges against her and her husband. so the deal struck something of then national reconciliation board enact did so she could come home and your husband can come home with her to campaign and despite the fact mini charges were leveled men have never back improvement would in the issues you get into whether she committed and -- any violations under pakistani law but nevertheless the controversy affected her own political credibility. she did sell by standing firmly for the notion that if she came home she would restore democratic government to have a civilian government for once more dominant and the military and that was a radical thing for her to do. and she was in washington and she talked about the the the warrantor revolution and had she returned home and been elected to prime minister had she lived cover should have no choice but to leave the revolution to give pakistan the unique opportunity to modernize itself and break through the social barriers to upward mobility that hold the country back. it is very interesting to see how she and musharraf dealt with each other. her strategic communications was brilliant. always on target weather in washington or the international press and consistent and clear and focused while she was coming home. then she survives the assassination been when musharraf faces its reality the supreme court will not let and the both the army chief of staff and president, she comes home and denounces him. says she is very strong. he on the other hand, stumbles from one thing to another and that is why i say when the military takes over they tend not to do very well ultimately and he showed no grass but all of the need to mobilize popular support from what he stood for he did very little to make a case for why his policies and actions in rigid the support of anybody in the country. to do press releases that is not what politics is about so he became very divorced. there were a lot of lessons to be learned from that dealing with those authoritarian states the book examines what he faced in his philly years from performance why he always thought he was doing the right thing. another thing about the book that i think you will enjoy it is after the assassination, i tried to think of away to convey the upside-down nature of pakistani politics because for reasons that are unaccountable failed to provide the security to protect her from assassination that he should have done and is years people insist he had promised to provide this security and it was not forthcoming book from his point* of view he would argue he gave her more than anybody else but he never understood heard death would kill his own political fortunes 17 assassination took place what do you do about it? i wrote the dictators playbook how they would do damage control and effective coverup if necessary from his point* of view for example, if you think the target was not killed by a bullet it is probably a good idea to talk to the attending surgeon before he talks to the press conference to says it was or it could be embarrassing than i objectively evaluate what the evidence showed what he did politically to try to protect himself and what it showed in terms of the assassination one in the interesting things is the conventional wisdom that she was killed by said tribal militants is not supported by the evidence they think that was very likely responsible for what happened but as you read the dictator playbook my hope is you get the mindset a someone who is semi authoritarian and don't just understand how you can put fourth day rational incredible case. then finally you do get a sense after musharraf leaves office the way the conspiracy coulter operates. it is amazing. remember princess diana was killed the egyptian press went on for ever fell lourdes stories about how the palace was responsible for having killed the conspiracy. that is child's play. the ability to come up with intricate conspiracies for the littlest things are amazing if they applied 1/2 of that creativity to be one of the world's leaders they are amazingly creative. you could see it on display a assassination of the governor of food jab and the minister of minorities who was a christian and the case of the cia agent who did not have proper paperwork but all of this gave rise to interlocking conspiracy theories. if you look at the theories you will setback to think is this situation comedy our politics? benazir summarize all of this the best when she said pakistan is the story behind the story. should make a great candidate for governor of louisiana to understand the complexities and intricacies of personal politics and intrigue at its best. also looks at these relationships and in order to understand where it is today it is important to look back in time kampala six unfolded than go beyond understanding the culture how the players use political communication which i have the honor to work with very closely thinks of strategic communication in order to get to from here to there. it is unfolding as to look over the horizon i cannot wait to see the next chapter. goes to amazon or your local bookstore in everybody's who is here everybody by 20 copies. [laughter] it looks great when it is wrapped. you can put a lot in your briefcase. it is not expensive but worth its weight in gold. thank you for hearing me out. i hope you enjoy the book and something new and interesting. thank you. [applause] i will be happy to take questions. >> i men a research sure from said washington d.c. metro area the last part of the book talks about the idea is that you bring out that some people in washington are concerned about nuclear capabilities been transferred away to the are urged extremist in said in your own perspective that probably will not be the case. can you expand upon that? i am sure there is a lot going on with that thought. could you expand? >> righty a book like that i had great sources it one affect how you position yourself but there is a strong consensus that the pakistani nuclear inventory not a standing there were some attacks that some installations will have some evidence of nuclear weapons but it is not any danger being overtaken by violent extremists. the important parts of the weapons transported then that insecure way but the combination military and civilian people i have talked to who did not feel that was a serious danger it is important to understand even though there is instability there is not a significant danger that the taliban will take over the government. they don't that. it is a danger of increasing extremist influence on the culture. the most common term is talibanization. a terrible name. but i do worry if the islamist managed to capture the political argument to say civil tavis is secular and and he is on again on top that doing anything to provide justice i wonder what would happen there? there are some scenarios like that but in my judgment it is very unlikely. they will not send troops to do that and i think it is very unlikely that nuclear armory will fall into the extremely it -- extremist. people like to write about it but not a major concern to me. >> can you talk about the pakistani/india relationship? >> win pakistan was formed come by the debate that took place with muhammed all the data at against george washington and whether the muslim should have their own separate state, the jeddah wanted to have muslims a part of greater india to have a greater voice but ghandi did not want that. he has been very romanticized in his movie with ben kingsley but someone more dictatorial who was marcus are driving power for himself that what is the movies make him out to be. the partition is handled very bad day. the / 14 to as the people move it into india the saying that ultimately became the rallying cry is if kashmir would be part of india or pakistan. then the partition is placed you have the states of have the right to make a decision to be independent or join india or pakistan. , r.i. negative could german as mayor decided to sign the instrument of succession that made him part of india. they are majority hindu and the rest is majority muslim and they had forced to states that are majority hindu but would have been a part of pakistan. so their view is what is fair is fair. so they ought to let them vote on that sell the would become part of pakistan. showing that the hindus want to remain part of india and not be a part of pakistan so that is an interesting fight. when you look out of the modern era, it comes down that india is not about to have incite. if you had one it was resolved and independents independents, india's sphere is the causes of their ethnic groups in the multi-ethnic society to begin to lobby for their own independence. they stand firm on the point* on the international law of succession made this day part of india but it is much more complicated and of that but from the pakistani point* to view people should set aside for themselves what they want to be a part of. ultimately, the truth is not entirely clear. but 2007 musharraf became very close to settling the issue with india but his problems with the supreme court and the attack launched that we can to to the point* but there is some debate how close those whereby it is not likely whether they really came that close lower if it would-be a barrier. it is just not clear buffer indiana and pakistan it is vital that they work toward lessening tensions. there has been several developments that point* the way forward. just yesterday there was a move to normalize to make it easier to get visa to go back and forth and granting the most favorable nation status to india. it is through development of economic ties that i think we see the best opportunity and that is important because although it takes forever to talk about it, with fears that pakistan sense about india of fact in a very drastic way what pakistan does it does not do with respect to the taliban in afghanistan. >> the anti-americanism in pakistan this across the charts. what can the united states do given everything it has done wrong already? what do we do to rivers the talibanization your islam is a shan of the pakistan culture? >> we cannot do anything the pakistani is have to do this for themselves. but i have written about this recently but it is my view that pakistani government needs to be much more assertive. when they launched the offensive they got everybody together all political parties and the media and said we are going into south was here is the and dealing with the militants and you're all getting on board. they ran a pretty good campaign it is us or them for one that protected the ideals of islam that protected the motherland against foreign intruders pakistani trying to fight to the extra uninfluenced from outside of pakistan. of very good campaign but the campaign worked and it shows that they work and you could shift attitudes. governor really has to take a hold of this thing and say those who commit the bombings are the taliban and they are bad people. it is not sufficient to stand on a current prejudices that this is happening because pakistan has been dragged into a conflict it did not want to make. not of its own making. pakistan is fighting america's war. that is a huge problem and a campaign could shift in those attitudes and that would be more powerful for the pakistani military to do with tribal militants and al qaeda in his own country one of the concerns that i have of the drawn attacks send it -- serve the american interest the consequence is it alienates elements of the military intelligence and the middle-class of pakistan. the ultimate consequence could be very detrimental to everybody's interest. that is the first thing i would do. . . dependent bob on who you believe 25 million to 35 million pashtuns. it is inconceivable that any pakistani government will pursue policies quote that seem to be in conflict with the desire of minority that is that strong and so their needs to be a sense that the pashtuns have a really substantial stake in the success government of the day and i think that there is not as much focus as they're ought to be on fraud aimed to achieve that outcome. karzai has made it better and i would argue that it hasn't been enough because if it was then you would have seen better results. i think that doing all of these things is very difficult. i am not one who believes that -- and i'm not an expert on afghanistan but i am somewhat skeptical about how successful we would be in getting the negotiated settlement because i don't think the taliban is going to lose. yes? >> frank fletcher, you mentioned this treatment of minorities in the assassination of the minister and then there is baluchistan which for a brief period surprisingly actually an independent country and so there is a lot of activity going on there and so the military is being used against the civilian population although there are people there that are rebelling. what drives their attitude towards christians and other minorities? i know these are related to the different. >> both are different things. the problem of the religious intolerance is another. the fact of the matter is that all the events in pakistan. the main divide and religion in pakistan is between the sunnis and shiites, not between the sunnis and muslims and christians. christians in pakistan tend to be towards the lower end of the scale economically, and i think that there is a very strong sense of this is a muslim nation and i think there is a lot of religious intolerance although christians are really not the principal target of the shiites. and i just think that's the nature of the culture and one of the things that i think that benazir bhutto had a chance of being able to do is to provide the kind of leadership that would have led to a populist upheaval that might have changed that. but this is very difficult changes in something that wouldn't change overnight. one of the things that is very clear is that if you ask a pakistani can something be done with political leadership to take on violent extremism most will say yes, strong leaders can do that. if you say to them should we repeal the blasphemy while benazir wanted to do to go along with it. and i write about that in this book. another reason i think it is a very gutsy woman. i think that's a very difficult and everybody that i've talked to tells me that that is one of these things that is culturally and very hard to deal with and as an american i can condemn it but i couldn't tell you how to solve that problem. yes? >> maybe i missed an earlier statement but how did your comment on the current rise of the former -- suddenly arise the populist voice. he is suddenly sort of resent. is their anybody else did you see rising out of the fixed groups of be in some ways we are not seeing a lot of difference from the players in the last 15 years. >> right. and pakistani terms there isn't anybody there that is going to be delivering a speech on the eve of st. christmas. it is a problem. he is a cricket player in pakistan. it is like american football is here. describe what it's like to go across a room in a hotel even in india which also very big on cricket, and it's really like having mike jagger go across a hotel room to get mobbed by people. he is a very interesting figure has had a checkered career. married to a bread and divorced from her and is a very handsome guy, very articulate. in recent times he has tended to identify himself more with the religious parties. and his mantra goes something like this. he's written very eloquently on at that as long as the americans are in afghanistan that pakistan will never be able to do a tribal militancy and that the longer that the war in afghanistan goes on with what is characterized as the foreign occupation, the less ability pakistan has and will have to be able to as some future time to deal with that problem that if we stay too long the whole thing will spin out of control and clause because the inclusion of the pakistani state. the latest poll that i saw gave him the highest personal popularity in the country. i don't see him being able to gain power. you are elected president and prime minister in pakistan indirectly. the premise is elected by parliament, the president is elected by the electoral college that consists of the provincial assemblies and the two houses of parliament. so in other words in order to be elected to these things you have to have a kind of organization that enables you to get the votes, and i don't see him developing that kind of an organization. if you have direct election whether it is president or prime minister one cannikin argument right now which of the two posts that you want because one of the things that zardari did that is commendable was he voluntarily gave up power to the presidency, and restored them to the way that it used to be to the office of the pie minister. but there is no way that you -- that i can see getting their in the present situation. i haven't seen anybody else that is a current player on the scene who i think has the ability to break through. benazir's son is a very eloquent percent and actually spoke out against the assassination of the punjabi government with a very strong and eloquent speech but he's in his early 20s. it is really hard to find out standing leaders. there aren't that many. there's been very few in this country and very few anywhere. so these types of people like benazir who can change history come along once in a generation. she in my mind has been unique to pakistan over to general in the 1940's. >> in the interest of the militarily portions of the military that he might have of being groomed for. to win an election for the president or prime investor in pakistan requires all some organizational resources and abilities and i don't see that taking place with them. you can be popular in a country without having a chance of the top. that happens in countries all over the town. this country is unusual in that you can come out of nowhere and win an iowa caucus or something like that. that is one of the great things about this country that you really can be nobody. but it doesn't take place in most countries and it doesn't take place in pakistan. yes? >> i also work at the university of maryland for the study of terrorism. we are studying afghanistan and pakistan situation right now and one piece that comes up is the thesis that the u.s. by cooperating both with the isi and pressure in pakistan for democracy is not going to get over and it is cooperating with the isi national laid i guess impedes the development of the space institutions in texas and we are finding more localized insurgents and enemies and all these other groups. could you comment on that or how do you feel about that thesis? >> i've heard about the books which are both excellent. very smart, and i tend to agree with most of what he wrote in the books. he seems to have a somewhat respected mind. winston churchill said that nations have interest and not friends. and i agree with what churchill says. one deals with the isi in places where it is in our interest. we have to find ways to redress the imbalance between the civilian and the military government. when i say to redress, i mean what we can to foster an atmosphere in which pakistanis can reduce the imbalance. we can't do that. only they can do that. only can that happen if there is leadership that provides what we call good governance to the public and that is the only way you are going to do it. i don't think that with a recovery or not the fact of the matter is it isn't adel on popular in pakistan. one of the reasons that they provide support to the taliban is i think that a lot of people in pakistan are sympathetic to that policy. so far from that being a problem in terms of pakistan the attitudes, it might actually be something that helps, so that is within pakistan the average pakistan is right aware of the intelligence services. there are three of them they have to deal with and it is not homogenous operations and it's also something that i think is very important to remember. the night that benazir was assassinated it was the director-general who came to her house at 2:00 in the morning and said don't go. i don't think that was involved in her assassination. i'd think there were other elements that were involved. other questions? >> you've been great. thank you so much for coming. [applause] >> [inaudible] here at the national press club, authors might senator joe lieberman of his most recent book the gift of rest, be discovering the duty. senator lieberman, where is the public policy in this book? >> this is very different. i've done six books before this. they've all been about history or politics or law. so this comes from inside. i preserved and i consider to be a gift, something that anchors my life and helps me reenergize, reconnect with my family, my friends, myself, my spiritual side, and so i am essentially offering the gift of rest to the reader whenever your religion hoping that they will see something here that will lead them to a little more seven their own lives. i think we are all very busy, we are all very connected by our electronics 24/7. we need to create some offenses inside which can take a break. >> what is a typical for you? >> to the jewish practice it starts with sundown friday and saturday and did the rabbis over the century have created some restrictions that encourage you to keep it a different kind of day and you're not supposed turn lights on and off, used cars coming use money unless there is an emergency where somebody's health or life is on the line. so it is a day when i spent some time and make some of all the praying that a lot time with family, good food, a little bit of drinks and just relaxation. >> has the seventh -- let me rephrase that, has your work life interfered? >> i tried not to let my work life interfered. one of the -- one of the most compelling message is that i have for the reader today, 2011, is how important and difficult it is as the seventh approach is on friday to turn off my cellphone on the blackberry of tolerating it is -- and liberating it is. i never do politics on sabbath but according to my understanding of my religious tradition, i carry out any governmental responsibilities that i have on the sabbath. if i can't delegate them. so i vote on the