if you listed days to reject and watch it on but tv beginning on midnight eastern time. >> you're watching but tv. forty-eight hours of nonfiction authors and booook every weeken. >> kate buford, who is jim thorpe? >> probably our greatest multi sport athlete ever of all time and the native american. partially by, but mostly native american. one of our earliest greatest athletes. that is one of the most important things about him. he said the model, he set the gold standard. it still stands. died in 1953. >> did he play professional sports? >> oh, gos3 ãyes. but nonprofessional but also professional. he played for the bulldogs. that is why the professional football hall of fame in canton ohio. if you walk in the front door the only statue that ec in the center of the hall is phillips. >> with c as well known as of michael veeck were brought forth? >> so, more. he was a multi sport athlete. football, baseball, track and field, won the gold medal. he could do all of that. one of the reasons he still retains this status as the greatest multi sport athlete. greltiple sports like that anymore. in his day and beyond he loomed so lard. >> what was the significance of his native american heritage? >> huge. playing of games as a young child. quickness and agility, stamina and also the respect for ethics, reltiect for competition with hs children. engage in oklahoma. that was a huge inoninclence. >> to were his parents? >> hiram thorpe who was half white. his father had been white from connecticut. his mother was an indian, another elgon one tribe. actually mostly for those viewers who are knowledgeable about indian backgroundar all of these are originally great lakes out, contrives. of course the gap removed and removedar eventually obama. >> how did he end up in pennsylvania? >> pennsup vania, carlyle pennsylvania, the carlyle and real -- industrial school was prvedably the most famous and prominence of a series of indian boarding ustrhools set up to assimilate american indians into white society. reformers at the time,nds870's, 1880's andnds89e,s. closed in 1818, but in the american indian race, dying out, threatened, vanishing, a popular word at the time. sort of a combination of guilt and policy. they decided the best way to save the dying race, of course it wasn't really, was to turn them into whites. >> turn them into whites. >> turn them into whites. sinden to boastanding schools wh they could not go home for five years. they were for timdden to speak native lan of aages. the hair was cut short. there were put into white uniforms. never sent out live with white families for the summer, and it was a rf assimilation which did incredible damage to at least two generations of native americans. and actually right now there is a very interesting movement going on a building with the internet, facilitated by the internet of the descendants of these b3 tanding ustrhool students trying to retrace their grandparents, parents, aunt of, uncles, and piece tullether what they call this whole torn in their culture where they were forbidden to induld or express their culture. jim went to the most famous. >> did he have to apply for it? was the chosen? how did he get there? >> well, they were recruiting the original superintendent saw sports as a way for the american indian that they could excel and they could do it well as anyone else. in active metaphor. his father hf spirit of being able to control him. he was older, in his late teens. he tried every other school in the area in obama. a pretty famous letter to the superintendent in pennsylvania saying i can't do anything with him. will you please tve he already showed signs of athletic promise. show, but enough that he was then allowed to go. put on a train and went off in that h04. >> when did he get back to oklahoma? >> he went back and forth. he did not go for several years, but he went back in the summer once he hf years. pretty much until he will close professional with the new york giant of. he would go back periodically, but not that much as he grows into an adult man. >> what was his reaction to a carlyle industrials "? >> quickly he loved sports. he really wanted to play football. he showed he could excel at track and field very early. %gt on track and field teams in 1907. he kept pestering poppel border he was the famous c3 h, soon-to-be famous coach. and he pestered warner to be put on the foo call team. at this point he was 5-foot eight and 135 pounds. wa -- ter kd ft putting oer %gther sing him off. long story short, he makes the football team. he does not start to shine until 1958. it doesn't really become his y fy. if you were an athlete, very interesting paradigm that we see now. you were a pampered persoigm a special training table, you did not have to get to class as often as the others. in athletic machine. very much a model. tell us about the west point football game. fast-forwastand to 1912. >> well known as a college athlete? >> by this plenty is. that h11. the long story, have to read the book. he leaves tu -- t now. goes to play minor league baseball. never intending to go back, once in to breve leagues. baseball was the only organized ltiort that you could mve career at. he did not do that well in baseball. persns ded to come back innds91s timgger, heavier, in his 20's. he hits the ground running. the foo call seabecnndsnly1- that hoft and the track and field season of 1912, the olympics in the in phenomenal. all over the newspaper and the headlines. bec by the time that west pintet thing is does will be is sort of the talk of the nation. in fact west point illustrated. ree08. had there been a heisman trophy, for example, in that h ga andn2 l im would probably have won it both years. phenomenal. bec it is a higus y symbolic thg for many reabecns. obviously west point is an army in that team and in that class of cf generals. >> omar bradley. watching from the sidelines. he is a reserve player. carlisle. it is a just a phenomenal prullram. >> what did the carlyle coach tell his team before they played? , and this can be exaggerated. but no doubt of warner says to the team as part of this peptalk before the game, if you are playing anevinst the descendantf of the people who fought against fathers in the so-called indian wars in the west. go out and get them, and they did. >> did politics, did political fi of arebol o did he get involved in politics and all? >> later in life he did. not at this pintent, not at all. last game. he g35s to hollywood. the movie's and the wonderful climate. he goes to hollywood and he becomes almost a spokeltierbecn for indian causes. the hughes as part of indians nevther out of hollycal the f renaissance as stereotypes. one ert obecde every week fornd2 weeks. go down saturday afternoon. he plays and over 70 moviebol my be double that. because there is a big group of indians and stuntmen and players in hollycal famous of all of them. he becomes a spokesperson and begins to speve indian affairs. he also forms a casting company to pressure the studios to hire indians to play. even though it is very typical, it is a jved. it is wors a you want somerane he can really shoot the ball, not some italian or some mexican or whatever. the studios were numb. as long as you look today the -- va of aely ethnic you were okay. he became aduite a spokesman for that. >> did he die a wealthy man? >> no, no. he mf to work for the giants, when he played in the minors. he mf >> hollywood? >> he made a living. he mf indians were not as much. he fought for that as well. by the end of his life he hf done virtually none. and it's very important to remeen aer, looking at the whol. std frt ong back. as i said, at the beginning of american sports. he is pre sports ally nt. none of these media amplifications of him exist. that mve larger. he becomes a folk hero whose exploits are handed down from father to son. ltiort of writers in play. he does not get the money, becmeone like jack dempsey, ten years later, another pro football player. collegiate that turned pro. these peraple were fabulous. he never hit that level. nobody did. >> who was mrs. thorpe? there was one of his classmates at carlyle whom he married. >> white. she claimed to be indian. you have to have what they call blood adns ntum. they would measure it all. the government instituted bans because it was a school for indians he was supposed to be american indians. like was not really in the nfl. they divorced about 1924-25, and he married rick kirkpatrick who was much younger than he was. he had four children. the first one died at about all three which was a horribl h horrible tragedy and it affected him for the rest of his life. three daughters sur192ved. two of the suns survived. they were divorced. that h39, and he mary's innds9. the bomy weng he is married to when he dies. she was fieree.e. like really felt he hf bum deal. was not charging enough for ltieak ang engagginnent of, notg his imally well enough. says she fought like a lion if becmebois m skad to g yoe him a bether ser deal. spent a lot of it. she almost got a deal with walifier brothers. jim thorpe all-american. tackle the studios so relentlessly that they amouost %glled the plug and only when she withdrew. of course found the best burial place. likop the bfy arounrc a bizarre story. >> you tell it. is this for the town of jim thorpe pennsbe iny. this very briefly. >> to small towns facing each other across the ln sigh r yoer with the total population of maybe 5,000. they were daffng. no jvedbol post world war two. they needed to consolidate. long story short the is the toost's trying to save themselves. already hard at oklahoma, likawne h tulsa. itlaiee of finally says to a newspaper publisher, wt the not. you change your name to jim thorpe. consolidate. but the municipal purposes tolly ther. you can have the body. so they signed a contract. it g35s to jim thoree.ee. >> is is still there? >> it is still there, yes. the town has dutifully honored alkm thoree.ee all these years. jim thorpe high-school. they honor him every yeams they have done well by what they promised to do, but the surviving children, jack coree.eoration, sf becy. that leaves too. whether they carry on this bather sle, the losses that were filed. under the native american graves protection act to get the remains exhwited and returned to oklahoma. >> and what is the status of that case? where do you see it telling? >> the status is as i understand that they have a 30 day extensbodyl he was the only one he technically filed the suit to f de tbol the tcal sons command some tribal members that recalled ? the court the needed to beefrestp in order to resubmit. that is what the last time. bec where i stand, if the end result was for jim to come back to oklahoma, i would like to think that is a win-win solution. the town, jim thorpe, had done bec well, they couldlaieep the name. the good guys. bring the remains back to e olahoma. whether that will happen or not, i don't know. >> were you able to talk with a ts? of mms park's defene. >> yes. all his children. >> what are they dinteng? >> welman there are only aboo left. they have had varied careers. the one who most could claim the indian identity. he was shawnee. bill worked as an engineer for many years. retired now. dick worked for the government of oklahomise he l yoes in oklfileoma which is almost the texas border. grace thorpe, one of the e_ihterbol was a pas daonate all her life. gail, the other daughter cal for the american girl scouts and was also quite an advocate for indian issues. charlother s h their daughtee w worked very hard for reinstatement of the olympic meeãdao. they were all terrific peraple. >> we have been talking with kate buforcr author of this new boe o nat yoe american sun, the life of sporting legend of jim thorpe. >> we would lf you. trieste's your feedback. >> grace eli bbeth hal h in your boe o, "a natbodyn of outsiders" you devote a whole chapter to j.rc salinlly r and a catcher in the rye. why? >> well, interesting because his character is really the first exocginnely popular rebel figure who really comes from an elite upper-middle-class background in this post wartime. he is not alienated because of his race or because of this class bacpe.round or because he is a bohemian. a prep school dropout. he is a resd toent of a fkarly nice new york apartment, and this is really the dto sning ofa newlaiind of troatule. book in 1951? >> it was really h-ie. the boojim s style was very different from a lot of published fictbodyn at the time. it was alaiind of slangy, amouot bratty sort of dialogue style that really ca-iht the eye of young peraple. people of all ages, but especially younger people. the book really mf impression on readers at the time and valley throughout the fiinkies and into the 60's toe. as well for th. >> subtitle of your book, how the white md tond love with rebellion postwar america. besides d forc salinlly r and catcher in the right, what other rebellious figures are out there? >> welman in the initial post or time white middle-class folks were really attracted to a host of diferesrent fy,ures that they experienced mostly to popular culture, television, magazin h ref espe a ally. those sorts of venues. and also the movies. bec partin rla toy in the 5ly ts rock-and-roll, the birth of rock and roll, particula toy folks like endiis presley. young people and some older fo3 as as well who really mf name for himself acting very deliberately putting on a performance of blackness, black stbe in h but dress style, but musical style although he was, of cours h white. other fy,ures followed him. rock-and-roll would be one place that peraple fell in love with rebe dao. also, huge movies. james dean, of course. rebel without a cause became a k and of catch phrase for the rebels of the era. that phrase would apply to holden caue-cield as well. folks who don't have a political problem, donso have a class prvedlem, but they are alienated all the same. all of these movies, marlon boando, many of his early mo192es, the wild ones where he makes that wonderful line. what are you rpartielling ae ant and he says what do you have. so those are places that use the rebe dao. albec, bohnderia becomes more popular at the time. life magazine does a great jved of bringing people from the fringes into middle-class homes. people are able to pickrestp l e mae ans. ane and look at pictures of beatnik's and be writers like allen ginsberg and jack arawak and lf like jackson pollock and books that they probably cal havelainoost that much about unless they happened to be interested in the art world or poetry spe a fically. most middle-class white americans would not havelainoos. those foly as well. >> william f. buckley as the ultimate outsider. >> welman of very interesting fiutsire because he gusty yale. late 40's. he is at yale. he would not have been an out ofd toer most places in ame, but he really feels very much that he is at yale because he believes that a liberal liberalism of professors really dominates not just the camk but the academic offerings. there is a kind of intellectual orthpeopoxy that is constructedy these liberal professors and that you really don't have manyh room to socay out dade. he comes to school from a very conservative family, a family that happee ani to have root ofn the deep south. the other half is not. a very conse amat yo h catholic, white family with a very conservative politics. so he brings those politics with him to yale and fee dao very mah that he is a rebel against that yale's ivy leautsie lraweral n rlture. >> we have been talking quite a bit now. white is the erolect of all of this, this white rpartiellion? >> well, it really begins to grow in thehis ily ts. people begin to make the leap from being interested in people they see as diferesrent or rpars in to imaintelning themselves as rebels or outsiders. and the uc books making that l^ partin rla toy young white college students through the book music revival. really a very important veners l for that kind of thinking. people start out may be listening to thelaiinuiton ocboy or even harck belafonte. before you know if they have grf congress, the scratchy library of congress recordings and other field recordings. before youlainow if they hf bought a guitar and picking out songs in their bedrooms and think ang about how they can cat themselves as a folk music hero. youlainow, therestltimate exaere of that would be bved dylan, but there are many other folks who don't become famous but to tstre their gdomtars to washington square park and sort of put on the folk and enjoy the music, ocy to find a way to play it in what they think of as an authentic mannems this week a lot oflaid tos intow left politics. >> who is the new white ny tro? >> welman irestse that term bece at that time in the 50's and 60's it is reallyrestsed peinkinratively buying southern traditionalists and segregationists. they call age body who is interested -- who is white who is interested in or supporting the c yoil ry,hts socfgles of becuthern blackbol oinken called white negros. southern sheriffs yelled that white act yoist of, thoselaiindf epitaphs for used. ratings to the student nonvbodylent coo60inating committee foly. pope singers like pete seeger get hate msell calling him a white ny tro, white mstrer. so i use that phrase to describe those whitebol mostly middles rlass foly to tstrerestn interest in black culture in black politics reallmid ae anin, starting with a rock-and-roll and moving through the revival and saw them into suppohe a 192l ry,hts organizing. >> well, the coordination last night. >> welman i this. s those would be therestltimate outsiders today, wouldn't they? the people who claim the center cal very large crowd but would be therestltimate out daders. out ofd toer thefris so pn i think that we are really a nation that this. ss about difference these dmosts. i mean, adding that is one of the things, the dramatization of out ofd toers has helped change that. in the mid 20th century there is really a very powerful sense of white middle-class culture as universal, white middle-class wmost of l ae as the wmost that almost all americans live with the norm, the way that we should live. this love of out daders really has a positive affect on helping people to see a d aeresrence and recognrfe d aeresrethose. it may be goes overboard. by the time you have g,ortie w. buenc running as an out dader fr president, a man who went to an elite prelib on hool in nook enotheanct hary. graduate of both of those institutions, as the pre dadent and runs eingerectively as an outsider. one of the things that i've wanted to hy,hly,ht is how manyh that meae ani our understandingf outside and inside has changed a we can see sompartipeopy like ll >> to do you consider to be out ofd toers tpeopmost? >> welman i donso tck to thinkf it in terms of who i think of as an out dadems i am interested in why p,ple see themselves as outsiders and why they positbodyn thnderselves that wmost in p yoilic. so i think it is interesting that obama is one of the recent presd toential candi3 tes who really has not pushed himself were bryan were constructed a narrat yoe of himsee-c as that much of an outsider, especially in his more recent writings. race has a lot to do with that. at -- one of the more recent successful candi3 tes for presd toent who dd to not purpaa narrative of himself as an outsider. mentbodyned g,ortie bush. i think that is interesting. certainly a grobera that is very ibch work ang the out dader stik today would be the key party. they are very eneortirfed by the absethose of oresositbodyn to ad of corrupt mainstream america that has gone astray. >> how dd to you growrestp? white middle-class? >> i did. >> were you attracted t out ofd toe causeresti >> at think it is really hard to be a young perbecn in america dathose the 5rus especiall wo3 since the era of holden caulfield and not see yourself as an out dadems and certainly i was attracted to that, too. i went oinger to colly te libeom parkburban athe 5anta where i gp to the university of georgia which at that time was brestrin3 out with alllaiinds of crazy bohemians and musicians, r.e.m. was pla around town. people thought it was the music capitol of the natbo