Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Why Not Jail 20150906

May be to step back, the starting point of the conversation is to recognize that our country has an epidemic of corporate crime, abuse and violence which we all suffer its evident in the financial crash of cost the country 22 million in the blowup in the oil spill in the environmental disaster in the nations history nations history arguably and numerous food safety crises and disasters that kill dozens routinely in the new england compound scandal in Workplace Safety and Health Issues that rise on a dalia basis and much more. We have to step back and say we dont do a very good job of dealing with these problems and one marker of that is if they persist over a long period of time we have an issue about how we set the rules for what is permissible for corporations to do when we say no you cant compare all human life and know no you cant threaten the environment. We have to make sure the rules are being followed, supervisors look at the think tank sure they are following the rule and it turns out that we dont waver a good job of funding those positions and the positions that are not funded a lot of times the instructors dont do a good job as they should often because they dont get a lot of support from the top. And then when we do find violations when the inspectors and examiners defined problems the issue is what do we do with companies that have broken the civil and criminal law would we do and thats really where the book focuses on the question and im making the argument that we should focus on the first two and criminal sanction and the inability of the proper standards. And that is a problem. Today the New York Times has a story in the business section for charging gm employees and the opening of the story says from the corporate suite employers in the Deadly Mission effect have failed to disclose the problems of the government. Yet even now as they are closing in on the case against the automaker they are charging individual employers at the center of the case theyve hit an obstacle. The loopholes of the Auto Industry itself helped create. The struggles are sent with oversight of carmakers according to experts that understand whats going on. That is a good jumping off point. They will complain about the problem and criticized the version of the story and to say y the prosecutors should have stood up with improper law. Let me turn it over. She is the author again on the new book why not jail. The professor at the university of Maryland Law School and the long time and recently passed president for the progressive reform. The floor is yours. I appreciate everybody coming. I see a lot of familiar faces, and back makes me happy. Thanks especially to rob whos doing a fabulous job we reading this agency in a difficult time and russell, who really deserves a subscription with anything but dry and boring and finally to Catherine Jones who greeted you at the door, she is the person that sort of set up the nuts and bolts of this secret weapon, so i am very grateful to her. I have a simple genda for my 20 minutes and that is to convince you that criminal prosecution of corporate managers and corporations themselves in the worst Safety Environment for cases should be among the Top Priorities as a nation and as a community. We should work in a concerted and relentless way to promote those kinds of prosecutions. On some level you all agree that bad guys should go to jail but our community as a whole doesnt spend much time because weve been fighting blazing fires all over town focusing on that solution and i think it is one that has a lot of popular appeal and also has a potential to sort of breakthrough by regulatory gridlock that we find ourselves in. So, my first argument is a matter of ethical politics or political ethics. That sounds pretty professorial, doesnt it . As mentioned, we have been longstanding neglect of whitecollar crime in the country. Its extraordinarily acute. We do manage on some level to fight every day cases of fraud and embezzlement even at the state level. But at the federal level, there has been a shocking neglect in these kind of cases and as we begin to talk about the critical issue of the mass incarceration which is the sort of outcome of all the terrible things that have been happening in the citys two people of color, i think its important that we also raise the other side of this which is the justice system, some would say the injustice system in the country is very good at slowing poor people of color in jail and a very, very bad aout policing which Corporate Executives and managers that are so reckless and so grossly negligent that people die in the workplace. It was intended and was wrapped rapped on the knuckles many times until its final act was so sensational and even now the company is saying we are coming back in the stock prices back not to worry. So neglected White Collar Crime not only reflects a difference of discrimination between two classes of people in a very unfair way, but also the ultimate goals of the criminal justice system. The longstanding belief that criminal prosecutions are good because they punish people, they deter crime and nothing could beat her crime more effectively than having the fbi or the state police show up at your door to interview you as a potential target and crying should reflect the values of our community. So, what do we know about the values of the community. As rob also mentioned, we have great indication that the American People are absolutely disgusted by the failure to prosecute the banks for what happened in 2008. The polling spo nsored the foundation which is one of the cosponsors of this event shows beyond a doubt that people think enforcement is too weak and it needs to be emphasized in appropriate cases and there are others that showed people are very puzzled. They understand why violent street crimes have been a priority. I dont think they realize how many people are locked up for nonviolent crimes. But they dont understand why the bankers have walked free. Just a few days ago there was a story about the london whale come at a, the critical statement of the banking Interest Rates and said he wasnt going to be prosecuted. It is too complicated. They couldnt figure out what to do about it to send a message. So, its also true that the double standard is starting to make local news and now i will tell you something if you hadnt havent heard about it youre going to be pretty surprised. There were cases where drivers of defective cars that had fatal crashes, one was the 200 and one is a gm car where they were prosecuted for reckless driving and one guy got an eightyear jail term and served two years he served for two years until toyota said we think that card was having a sudden acceleration problem. So we had a circumstance. They covered over for years andsign huge settlement of the government that in the meantime the average consumer to have the conduct criminalized because the defective car causes an accident. Its really disgusting. I would like to move to more pragmatic arguments. I think, and this is something that i say in the book and it may be controversial. I would like to hear what you think about it. My argument is that we need a completely different approach to the harm that is has been caused because the Government Agencies are on their back foot. There is a rampant regulatory dysfunction because they are underfunded, grossly underfunded. They have laws that are outdated and no chance of having been updated as an example, you get a heavy penalty if you harass a wild burrow in a state park. Its worse than than if you kill a worker through gross negligence or trump talks about this overtime and hes absolutely right, walls are outdated. And finally, the bureaucrats Civil Servants were kicked upside the head. It was the endless drumbeat of republicans conservatives that are consistently on the message and want to convince us that everybody in the government is incompetent and malevolent. So the agencies dont feel like they have a lot of backing. And at the epa cut its enforcement. It was one of the first things to go to sort of balancehe budget and that is extremely important if i were over there that would be one of my things that i wouldnt touch until the very last minute. They seem to have abandoned all rulemaking. Thereve been several stories in the last coupleof weeks. They were absolutely overlooked as if they could muster itself to even understand what was going on. It took the plaintiffs lawyers to discover that the ignition switch had actually been changed out 2005. We knew that it was a dangerous switch. Bottom line is i would say too Many Companies large and small are galloping ross the tundra calls a grave damage without any fear of being ross were prosecuted and its a bad situation into something that we need a new approach to addressing the really change and if we go up to capitol hill there are veteran lobbyists here that i see going up to capitol hill saying would you give the agencies more money. If we can find a way to advocate a sharp remedy that is appropriately harsh in the right cases, i think that it would would have a lot of residents with people that have a perception that the government is not protecting them and that the companies are only about the bottom line and really dont care about their customers. So my third argument is that we can make a big progress here because change is in the reach already started. With that, rob mentioned some of these but i want to point out to people who may not have followed it. One of them that there has been since the notable prosecutions in the states that show at least federal prosecutors are beginning to become far more aggressive on health and safety. The bp company men that are in charge of the risk before the blowout. It is unusual in the bad decisions about a test result they got an. They will be charged and go to trial in the fall. At the Peanut Corporation of america that shipped out with salmonella killed nine and made hundreds of sick, they had been convicted of felonies in that they will be sentenced on september 21. New England Compounding Center has been charged with racketeering. The core of his seconddegree murder of the 64 people that receive these injections and got meningitis and died. By the way there are 741 people who were still struggling with the aftermath of the disease. Its a situation you wouldnt wish on your worst enemy. The pharmacists, two of them have been charged with deliberately ignoring the tests that show the rooms in the facility were infested with bacteria and fungus who didnt do a routine tests that are very clear in the widely recognized industry standards this wasnt even something the fda put out were sending up medicine when they were on a supposed to send it out to specific patients. They will go to trial if predicted in april. The collapse killed 29 miners were the worst tragedy in decades. The ceo, despite the concern thats going to destroy all these shops, people were hauling calling every day asking if he was going to invite them. If you read this you would be amazed at what he was saying and writing. And its even more interesting that his Senior Executives kept all the notes. Saying things like we dont have the time to Pay Attention to safety. They were getting reports every 30 minutes from the executives. Freedom industry, the people that ran the tank farm that had the week that put the un pronounced chemical that has never been tested into the charleston water supply again in West Virginia have been charged, and several of them have put guilty. They were the most sympathetic because they had a smart lawyer and it was infected with wisteria and they put guilty but didnt serve any jail time. But still, the food prosecutions that convinced the industry, thank goodness because we are not implementing the modernization act if you hurt people, people get sick of the food that you send out you can face criminal charges. There are some common characteristics i just want to run through quickly, because my ultimate goal is to make these kinds of behaviors a component of the guilty mind you need to have to be prosecuted for a crime. They are very widespread and you see them when you look deeply into all of these incidents and there have been thousands of pages of very detailed objective reports that have been written about each incident. If you look into them you can gather a few in your hand. First of all, everyone had an ample warning they were doing something wrong because the regulators were buzzing around them. It was evacuated in the weeks leading up to the explosion that killed 29 men. They had hundreds of violations pending for the exact practices that caused the explosion and get a persisted. They appeal to them and puts them off. There is a relentless and an air rational demand that people work harder and faster. At the texas city refinery that was under george w. Bush, 15 people killed, the workers that were in charge of the unit that caused the explosion had been working for 12 hour shifts for 29 straight days. This is very common. Stovepipe management that has a different responsibility assigned im actually not sure if it is delivered but its effective, so nobody knows the whole picture. For the miners would so the miners would say the ventilation system isnt working. They would be told that they had kids they needed to feed and why dont they be quiet or they wouldnt be around the job much longer. The normalization of deviance is another very common thread. This is when people see that the systems are failing and there are problems that are near miss is mounting this is mounting up and get they rationalize and they say they are really not that serious and we can accommodate this as long as we are aware of it is going to be okay and they talk themselves into this group that is blind to what the ramifications are and what could happen. So one last one big corporations have reams of papers, manuals, directives, things put on the lunchroom Bulletin Board and theres so much of it and it is ignored. Nobody is aware of it, nobody reads it and there is no system for enforcing it. Its not done in a way that the average bluecollar worker cannot understand. So, thats very ambitious by the way for me to say. If there were other professors in the criminal law where they would be falling off their chairs at the idea that this kind of behavior should demonstrate mens mens rea and that is part of the problem because there is a kind of refusal to say when the circumstances get worse and worse it becomes clear something dangerous is going on and the only people considered responsible are those that are standing there five minutes before the accident occurred. And there is plenty of room as i explain in the book for making the argument that when you create these circumstances, the chain of causation goes weeks, months and people are equally responsible if they are woefully blind to reckless and ignore what is happening and what the risks are. I would also say and this is something that my colleagues also would laugh about is we dont need new laws. We are not going to get them. That is a sort of problem that we dont need them. The existing law has room for the creek if prosecutors to bring these kind of cases and to be successful. We were talking before about prosecutors and why they are afraid to bring the creative cases in the part of the reason is that they absolutely hate to lose. If you talk to any of them they will admit this as their first point out of the block. The other problem is that there isnt anybody yet really pressing them in a concerted way to make the charges from supporting themo do it. Sometimes a the prosecutors hes the light that this kind of thing. One example is last week, the new York Attorney general announced that he was going to prosecute the owner of a papa johns chain that had stolen the employees wage and be appropriated for papers pain of Airline Workers and made the tax is fraudulent to cover up what was going on and he was going to bring criminal charges and is standing by his side was the head of the division of the department of labor. They have the federal officials although i dont overlook the Justice Department at all. They are critical to the whole thing. Its important that we advocate and this is one of the reasons i am so concerned and interested in bees managerial policies. They are made of the worker level making them center, central. Its not going to do anything if the line workers are scapegoated and this has happened in the industry after industry. Its a very serious problem and its one of the things that i talked with my friends in organized labor about. They are very concerned about the workers dont do anything. The company is happy. It tries to fire them all before they ever get charged. Im very happy to move on when they were in a circumstance when they couldnt have been anything different because they didnt have the money or the ability to avoid the accident and finally, as the wage example shows, i think it is really important that we work with the state and local prosecutors on this not just federal prosecutors. One of the little known facts is something russell can talk about even more because he lived through it is that the first criminal case was brought against ford motor in the modern times for the pinto, which you may never have a gas tank in the back when it was i was rearended at a relatively low speeds it turned into a fireball and killed everybody in sight of it and it was a county prosecutor. He covered the case. The county prosecutor in elkhart indiana who brought the charge. Unfortunately he lost, Ford Motor Company paid 2 million through its defense. I dont take my hat to him whenever i think about it. So this wont be easy and i dont want to pretend that it will. I toyed around with the stories and i mentioned the details but i thought it would be sort of tedious. Just take my word for the fact that if you are able to manage or to convince yourself to read these thousands of pages of the very boring reports, and im not suggesting that you would, you should be surprised by some of the things and how obvious it should be that peoples lives are in danger. I want to say that we have already begun work in the workers safety area thanks to the Public Welfare foundation we actually are working on trying to make connections with state and local prosecutors and encourage criminal prosecution. And one of the cases that we are aware of and we have been talking with the activist in new york is a routine case Construction Companies and a bunch of workers without checking the walls they want to demolish. The workers go in and start tearing it down and of course the load bearing walls are the first thing they can arrest and the whole thing collapses and the man is killed. Thats the kind of the cases go from simple to complicated about their astounding people are put in these kind of positions and i suggest the criminal law is the best answer. [applause] you dont have to read the thousands of pages because she read them all and wrote a good book about it. Prosecutors are human beings, to back. She mentioned with the hate doing command of the great thing about this book and others that i will mention that are being written now is this new wave of corporate crime activism is that its going to give them the space to act. So the book is like a roadmap for prosecutors. The first thing is that this book is a cornerstone for what i call the new Wave Movement to control corporate crime and violence and its in the context of a group of citizen academic reporters and activists who are living together for the first time in 20 years and we were talking earlier before we came here about the books that were written when we started the corporate crime report. It was was John Brinkley in the pharmaceutical industry. Weve are writing columns and the muslim call to corporate predators. I wrote one called corporate crime and violence and that was a lot being written. We do a question and answer form of editing and one was mayor giuliani. He was a republican u. S. Attorney in new york, criminally prosecuting the corporations for corporate crime as a launching pad in new york. They prosecuted for homcide. Republican, conservative, approached by the families of the teenage girls and there was an article written that printed the memo saying if we recall this much is that going to cost. Once the Movement Starts its not about left, right, democrat, republican. Its about basic human values and justice. So this is the cornerstone book. There are other citizen scholars lets look at a couple of them. The university of Virginia Law School wrote a book called too big to jail. Duke University Professors were then coming out with a book called capital offenses. David altman at the university of Michigan Law School wrote that federal prosecutor in the unit at the Justice Department writing about criminally prosecuting environmental crimes. You have to citizen reporters talking about american and justice come and justice in the age of the wealth gap. An upcoming book about corporate crime focusing on the failure of prosecutors. Why no prosecution of the executives and and there are citizen activists many of them in this room for the citizen activism against corporate crime and violence who are joining with the academics and supporters and you q. Are starting to see the movement that we saw 20 years ago. In this movement you are seeing the rise that traditionally if you think law and order you think conservative republican. They are more comfortable prosecuting anyone and thats why giuliani was prosecuting the corporate crime because it was criminal prosecution first. Liberals say i dont know if i want to prosecute here. Now you see this sort of morphed entity law and order liberals and they would agree with president obama as you know the first to visit federal prison this week. They would agree with president obama that we shouldnt be throwing out president s with nonviolent first offenders. Instead lets focus on violent crime. I would argue the crime that we should focus on are the kind of cases in the book. We have a prosecutors mentality and delves deeply into the facts into the lobby cases and develop the case for corporate criminal prosecution. When we started our publication years ago there were prosecutors who took corporate crime and volunteers and for for example they are worth a District Attorneys in los angeles. His policy was anytime it was on the job in Los Angeles County, he would investigate as a crime. Every death on the job as a crime. And he brought a lot of cases. Homide, Reckless Endangerment cases against companies and executives in Los Angeles County for the deaths of workers. Now its starting to come back in Los Angeles County. There were restarting the program and so in october, 2012, there was a young man these are the kind of things that we see. Working at a Bumblebee Tuna Processing Plant entered a then as part of his job. The oven was used to sterilize cans of tuna. His coworkers were unaware that he was in the oven when he uploaded 12,000 pounds cut close to the front door and started the oven. During the twohour process, the temperature in the oven roasted 270 degrees and his remains were found by a coworker afterwards. The los angeles District Attorney investigated as a crime and now bumblebee and two others are facing criminal charges and now they will have to answer in criminal court. Now that is one case. I think the one thing that upsets me and rob the most is when we see this case there are criminal prosecutions that can be brought and the head of osha should head over to the Justice Department and sit down and say whats going on here . We are prosecuting people in upstate new york for mistreating cats. Maybe they shouldnt be criminally prosecuted. These are people that are dying on the job, humanbeings. Another case that is just starting to come into the press are these auto cases, the one that ive been looking at his jeep cherokee. They put the tank behind the rear axle. Someone accidentally rearended the car may be recklessly. The passengers inside of the jeep survived the crash. The gas leaks and theres an explosion. The person that rearended the car ends up in jail. Its a dirty deal including the socalled recall where they say lets put a trailer which didnt do anything. Theres a Grassroots Movement among people that witnessed one of these inspirations and got so upset she started a petition online waiting to criminally prosecute and have an investigation of the company and executives and theres like 10,000 signatures in a couple of months and the families of the drivers that rearended the car where their loved ones are in jail for what would have been a fender bender. This is the kind of double standard talks about where you arrive engaging in the wrongful criminal activity to end up in jail. They engage in it and get their bonuses. The reason i think this is the cornerstone of the new movement is because its written as a roadmap for prosecutors and for citizens to enlighten them and generate this new movement for corporate crime. Now we will get into this and the question in the question and answer period but there is one other. We talk about the deferred nonprosecution and in the case which is the 29 29 coal miners looked at the company and entered into a nonprosecution agreement. We are not big prosecute you, pay a fine and some of them are huge debate they should be going to fund the crime prosecutors not the treasury. They should be going to fund the prosecutors but we are not going torosecute you. That is one thing that is happening. We dont think we dont want to win this case. So we will have a nice agreement, pay the money and there will that will be it. The other is the deferred persecution agreement. They were intended by the Justice Department in the manual to clear the jail of the minor first incentives. You broke into high school to get in ipad which is the First Defense we will charge you with not that we will do for the prosecution and if you are a good boy or girl in a year we will drop the charge. That was the intent. But now these giant corporations are getting in for these perfect and that switched ten or 15 years ago. It used to be plead guilty and pay a fine. We we agreed that a probation officer in the company. The head of the Criminal Division was spinning in and out of the Justice Department. They represent the big banks and refuse to prosecute. That happens throughout the federal government and thats going to be a key issue to figure out how we need to get to where we need to get to. Living at a few additional remarks. For putting this event together at the foundation and others who helped we appreciate you doing this very much. You were talking about the world of corporate whitecollar crime and this is the first point of three for me to make some if you cant check in six. The first thing is to do there is a distinction between the prosecuting individuals and prosecuting corporations and they are both important and i want to talk about both. She also makes the case for doing good but her focus is on the individuals because there is Something Different that happens when you hold individual account and one of the problems we have dealing with the issue of corporate crime and violence is the diffuse responsibility and making some actual person accountable and responsible for what goes on. Theres a different piece going after the individual individual it is a big portion of the book is devoted to talking about going after individual executives, individual managers, not the lowerlevel people with the top people in the decisionmaking roles but not just the corporation. Thats the first thing that comes out important in the buck. The second talk about in the remarks apart from the concern about losing cases maybe this is resistance and resistance in the law schools and not just prosecutors is worrying about the idea of the guilty mind within the law called mens rea ligated fair to go after the ceo and hold him or her responsible for something that happened on the shop floor the same way that you would hold a street criminal responsible for their decision to break into a house and rob what they found inside. They did it with their hands and they knew what they were doing. But where exactly do we draw the line . There are hypothetical is when is it too remote to go after the executive . But you still have easy cases because it turns out by enlarge the ceo knew about what was happening happening, pushed for that to happen and basically was is responsible from what happened or with a car crash or the oil platform. That is the key issue but it shows even though we have to deal with this and a conceptual level me just say parenthetically, not just to contradict russell but its not like it is the boring road map. To is to make is the people are prosecuted you care about these issues is a good book to read. That was my third parenthetical i am going to go back. [laughter] but talking about the issue not just achaea the individual but the corporate structure. One reason it is important to go after both is that corporations are so powerful and malleable. If it turns all the people responsible of the corporation can get off then they will throw out the sacrificial lamb and keep going so it is really important to keep going as an entity as well as the individual. We had a tremendously difficult doing that by we if federal government over the last tender 15 years because of the problems that we talked about so some areas have been appropriate for prosecution like environmental crime they do a good job. But with financial crimes they do a horrible job and in fact, they have replaced prosecution with the idea of the deferred prosecution is better than non prosecution which is basically a deal not to criminally prosecute in exchange not to violate the law lot in the future which is of much of the promised big cheshire not supposed to do that even without a deal in the first place. With that is the norm happening every year since 2000 much worse over the last five and seven years. Another contender is the case with hsbc. They were involved in moneylaundering at a scale to get your head around hundreds of billions of dollars they were doing that on behalf of large scale of narco traffickers and countries United States considers to be enemies. So we come to expect it to throw people lot of home youll not be criminally prosecuted for that but if you were in tabling nar trafficking from much United States calls enemies you could be prosecuted for that you would be wrong because you are not if you are a large banks like hsbc the sample were the guys in charge of criminal prosecution at the time we can go after them because we are worried will happen to the Global Economy to prosecute that is the justification from the prosecutor. Is a huge problem. Three points. That was the third one. Concluding note. So the things theyre talking about the individual prosecutions that hsbc may have then a tipping point. But then started to become unsustainable and thanks to their pressure focused on this issue it is harder and harder now for the Justice Department to enter these kinds of deals they still do what but now were seeing the actual first prosecution where there is a plea agreement to assemble prosecution the last few weeks with the big market manipulation case and even then going through all types of contortions with the guilty plea but it is still a step forward that the Justice Department feels reticent about entering into these kinds of agreements going forward. We have a serious problem that has become worse as far as enforcement the we are starting tuesday that cycle back in a way to push that so there is discipline on corporate this behavior. But for sure we have existing authority but we do need laws to make that easier. You what every prosecutor to figure out they ought to do that but it will help them more there is a variety of things going on to make that happen but finally we are moving in the right direction. We will pause there we will open up for the panel for conversation. This is a great panel i have all kinds of questions but i will limit it at two. The point of the epaith its genesis is because of sentencing reform lowlanders reform so with that leniency tool mimics and evokes to justifiably gain. There will be reports were with the code brothers on the issue with you talk about more motivational details [inaudible] [inaudible] so if that wasnt even close to to questions. [laughter] arrival to the first one. I am extremely concerned whitecollar Legal Authority will be undermined if the over criminalization from what we keep getting promised. If you have strange bedfellows is one of the only ways to get something done. So in this particular case you have the naacp witches justifiably concerned about mandatory minimum sentences and overcharging and mass incarceration and president obama has ben reticent in leadership with those concerns but theyre in a coalition with a Koch Brothers general counsel. With a slew of other people that the Heritage Foundation in leading theorist so senator cornyn promised us a few days ago there be big legislation introduced to solve this problem and james and i work closely together we want to get their hands on that right away as were feeling quite paranoid that they could try to defend on what it should be for mens rea i actually saw its with my eyes with my a hands on the machinery which to make these cases very difficult. It will be a big bill and one of the Bipartisan Solutions that we all love so much and people will be anxious to get something done since they dont do anything most of the time and it is a serious danger. I emails him once every three days wining and moaning. Uplifting and encouraging what part of the epa is criminal . There is actually a criminal charge the companies charged with the crime theres usually a statement of facts to the criminal wrongdoing and the prosecution was deferred over a period of time of to three years and is the company plays by the rules there is no criminal charge and if they dont it will kicky and. And that is very similar to decoration except the government gets the plot the pound of flesh we would you to pay a fine or a sum of money. The letter that this came about when holder was there the first time he created the old terminal it was guidelines to prosecute corporations in the fact to take into account when the factors it is you have to look at collateral consequences to the company. With the corporate crime lobby to back off on the criminal pleas but the series of memos told the u. S. Attorney and you think they ought with the benefits then go with the deferred non prosecution agreement. Of course, they can take after that consideration if they come after you or me. There are consequences ill be disgraced in the community, i can vote but they all say that if you criminally prosecute rustle of the consequences for. [laughter] the way is to tell u. S. Attorneys we will lead to the deferred nine prosecution agreements for Big Companies anymore. If you get them a statement of fact then get a guilty plea or go to trial. File on to say very quickly you hear over and over Arthur Andersen is the reason for this policy. To think that would say 80 percent say the reason is Arthur Andersen and help them to invent why they ripped off everyone. Theyre clients were fleeing by the hundreds of thousands there were leaving long before the Justice Department indicted them and they were indicted because they were shredding paper tons of paper. Four weeks until the sec said we would like to see some evidence. They were indicted and convicted and went to the court of appeals and the conviction was upheld the miss Supreme Court years later said we dont like some wording and the charge to the jury so they reversed the conviction by then the company was long gone but it is safe to say when added business only because they were criminally indicted because nobody wanted to do anything with it because day reason. They make me feel that the mouse. I could not resist. [laughter] what about the Justice Department for them to prosecute . They generally only referred historically in the recent past of two or three cases per year. They say the law which is reached week which we dont disagree but trying to make the best. But is only a misdemeanor but there are other charges cycling to the government, obstructing justice to destroy evidence evidence, wire fraud, a whole series of violations which is what the u. S. Attorney did. There is a case where it settles a the company with a Chemical Plant in louisiana. And then the Justice Department . If a serious violation does not trigger. Talking about the deferred prosecution agreements they all seem to generally be for the same kind of violation. When do they really prosecute . If that violated the epa and sanction court . You mean when they come back to say behavior self . Rob has done a steady and the answer is not all that often . Credit suisse anything get was ubs said he didnt criminally charged them but well prosecute his you violated the agreement that is the only example i know where theyre repeat wrongdoer is caught up in the first deferred prosecution. But they say if you hire a corporate monitor and set up an elaborate system where it is watching with the company is doing one of the greatest advocates losses cruz christie, the governor of new jersey to hire his friend to be the monitors and some have engineered a contribution to Seton Hall Law School as to these agreements and was hauled up on a hearing what he was doing these bizarre things and he ended up walking of the hearing. I anticipate as his Campaign Goes on and some of these shenanigans will come up again and that is a good thing because he is an example of how they can be done not just the choice of the deferred prosecution agreement which is a terrible choice but also with the implementation there could be a lot of corruption and just to say the successor of Massey Energy got to one of these al and they send the reports back another reason why i am critical or a fan of the u. S. Attorney when they sent the reports and he would not release them to the public so very often they are put under of monitor but we cannot see what they have done because theyre not public so yet that is another aspect that needs to be pushed. We tried do get those reports under the freedom of information act and we failed to succeed. There is little or no value. One of the books that russia all russell mentioned to talking in detail that hazel is less harsh in general about the problem but in conclusion, wondered two companies have a change that top management said this is out of control so they changed but not because they entered into the deal. He actually pulled up those deferred prosecutions to find there was live very little change as a result in a seven dash that there is no further prosecution. He also makes the point that these kinds of agreements have exploded under obama and are much more common than under george debut bush even. So that is embarrassing bill holder Justice Department has a blind spot when it comes to these types of issues. Thank you for putting up with hot lights on a hot day. [laughter] i have two questions. Where in your creative opportunities when you have inherently the un safe industry . Some countries whole cities are in danger or climate induced activities that are known and will full under criminal law as a misdemeanor in many places they seem to be germane you suggest a line and just wondering what your thoughts are for those that actually prevent those types of crimes and report criminal negligence. The second is och when i think of mcdonalds and the judge ruled to make a larger reward to teach the company a lesson to change behavior. In addition to prosecutors to say what needs to be done to change . Great question. Reckless homicide is what i was talking about. It doesnt require the intent to say i will go murder some workers because i would never argue Corporate Officers ever do that but it is more a blindness to dangerous circumstances the criminal law is not the best tool for thats the closest of bordeaux were after the horses have gone away. And i do think if there were more criminal prosecutions we may get to the point where a company said we need some regulation. That would be great but where there are fires, people are often badly injured if not killed. I am very glad the proposal brought up the of los angeles d. A. That has been impressive on these and resuscitated his whole program set is naming. Not just killing. Judges. We have to mention the District Court judge of new york who has done more to fight deferred prosecution agreement span anybody and unfortunately he was reversed but it with citibank he said i will not accept this item understand we were doing this. [inaudible] room [inaudible] i understand why cheney would be a problem when it comes to the police. So with worker death sometimes the police are called sometimes theyre not the year beginning to discover osha will get there a couple of days later it is important to preserve the crime scene of course,. People may not realize for example, there should have been no way that was closed with someone inside their hair should have been an alarm. But it protecting of witnesses i have to think more about that. Very, very high profile, very disturbing and really, a lot of investigations that were done around the same time that really unpacked what happened so the prosecutors had a lot of help. In West Virginia, of the guy kept charging people number one mobile below. The indictment that i was reading again this weekend had all of these notes quoted that they were from blankenship but even he mailing he probably had some quayle and parchment. [laughter] i would just say traditionally how prosecutors go after people. But there was Something Else there because for generations people were dying in the minds in West Virginia say you mentioned those individual prosecutors to say we will go after that to get this. I dont know him but steve reed deserved credit i think his father was involved. Thanks for your patience and for coming. Make sure you get the book. [applause] if. [inaudible conversations] booktv on cspan2. Here is a look at our primetime lineup for this evening. [applause] i am richard paul and steve then will be up for his p