And steven moss talk about 10 africanamericans who broke the color barrier at nasa and use of the Space Program by president s kennedy and johnson to advance social change. Thank you, im richard paul. Steven will be up when it is time for his presentation. Were here to talk about our book, we could not fail. Look as that today seas role in the years before the Civil Rights Act passed. That is important distinction. Before the Civil Rights Act passed discrimination was not against the law. It was legal. No, you cant use this toilet, youre black. Or no, you cant come into this restaurant youre black. Which is important distinction that will become even more so as we talk about the achievements of some of the people in this book. Well be talking about the rules put in place bit Kennedy Administration to try to address Workplace Discrimination and how they were implemented by nasa and by its contractors but more importantly well be talking about the people whose lives were touched by those rules. Our book tells the story of 10 men, most who came to work in the Space Program during the years we call the Civil Rights Era and some of them were nasa employees and some of them worked for agency contractors. Now president kennedy was forced into dealing with outer space at the same time he was forced into dealing with civil rights. And i say forced because these are not things he talked about during the campaign. He didnt bring up either of these issues during the campaign but there was a sequence of events tying space and civil rights together that all happened over the course of about six weeks in 1961. I will talk about those. April inn. Yuri greg geirian, is first person in space. Soviet union has gotten into space before the United States. April 20th, becomes clear the bay of pigs has failed. The soviet union now has a base essentially 90 miles off of florida. When it becomes clear the bay of pigs has failed, president kennedy calls Vice President of johnson, who is chairman of the Space Council and asks him to come up with something fast in space because space is going to be the big hail mary pass that will change the subject and divert everybodys attention from the loss in cuba. So may 5th, alan shepard becomes the First American in space. May 14th, nine days later, the freedom rides start. The freedom rides, as many of you know, seven blacks, six white young people get into bus started to washington, d. C. , headed from new orleans with whites in the back seat and, blacks in the front. On may 24th their bus is firebombed in aniston, alabama. May 25th, president kennedy says they will put a man on the moon a week later. A week later, mobs riot in montgomery, alabama. Governor of alabama declares mash saleh. Now president kennedy is thrown into both feet with civil rights and Space Program. Nasa is about to start hiring 250,000 new people, principally in alabama, texas, florida, mississippi and louisiana. So that in part, the fact this is the heart of the jim crow south will mean that africanamericans will have a role but steven also has another very important piece of the story about something that happened a little bit before that, that guaranties that civil rights will be a part of this story. Now that richard has everyone very excited i get to federal hiring policy. So president kennedy signed executive order 10925 on march 6th, 1961. He did this because he understood the political realities of his time. He couldnt get civil rights through congress. So he had to do something through executive power. And that is exactly what he did, an executive order. This slide shows how that order affected federal agencies and their contractors. When the order was issued, it covered 38,000 contractors. And so the impact of the antidiscrimination clauses was potentially immense. At the time nasa was a young and relatively small agency but it and its mission grew. And as that happened so did the importance of this order and the pceeo on agency affairs. Lyndon johnson believed there was a link between southern poverty and southern racism. If an activist federal government could solve one he thought it, could solve the other and transform the south away from farming and towards technology. Thereby bringing it into the nations social and economic mainstream. It was Common Knowledge in some africanamerican communities that johnson intended to use the Space Program to reconstruct the south. Johnson was not shy about promoting this idea. After kennedy placed him at the heads of both the national Space Council and the pceeo, the Vice President found himself in a position to implement his plan. The president s executive order required federal contractors to be equal Opportunity Employers. And this was the first time this would happen. Soon after kennedy announced plans to land on the moon, National First with connections to the Marshall Space Flight center in alabama, began to advertise for engineers and technicians around the country. Nasa contractors very quickly proclaimed themselves to be eeo compliant. But not every vendor embraced the order. In july of 19619 houston power and light cut power to Pelican Island destroyer base in galveston, texas, thus jeopardizing houstons hope to host the manned spaceflight center. The company objected to inclusion of ant discrimination clause in the contract with the u. S. Navy. He called the president and said, shall i tell the president you can not supply power to the Navy Installation there because of negro question and what are you going to do about space . The navy got its power and houston remain ad viable site candidate. Now this is just one of the several brushes that houston would have with civil rights in the space age. And richard has one of the other ones. President kennedy made probably his most moving spease about space at Rice University. He did not do it at rice by accident. The Rice Institute became Rice University in 1960. And the schools president was a man named kenneth pitzer. Whenever nasa would come to houston kenneth would be their tour guide. It was kenneth pitzers desire to put Mission Control in houston. So the schools president , kenneth pitzer, humble oil, gave rice, a thousand acres near clearlake. Rice promised the land to nasa for the manned space center building. Congressman Albert Thompson said this tipped the scales and put Mission Control in houston. In exchange, 1962 rice got some money from nasa and that is where the problem started. William marsh rices original 1891 bequest, provided for free instruction of white texans. With federal money involved that just was not going to work. So the board of trustees at rice, they had really no appetite for desegregation but they did file a lawsuit to change rices charter and admit black students. They filed a separate suit to remove the words, white and free from the founders indenture and when they did that, a group of alumni screamed bloody murder. They were outraged and they filed an intervention plea. And rices relationship with nasa hung in the balance until 1965, when a ruling was finally made. Now, the experience with rice was typical of the problems that nasa faced as it interacted with its southern facilities and steven has a little bit more on that now. The National Academy of sciences did an evaluation of the principle space communities in the early 1960s. And there was a popular belief then that Technological Advancement will lead to major social change. And as the National Academy put it, communities with advanced types of industry, with their people employed in Research Laboratories and in the development of new engineering techniques should display a high level of social innovation. The academy sent a sociologist named peter dodd to the space communities in florida, alabama, texas, mississippi and louisiana to see if that was true. It wasnt. Many people then and still now believe that the Space Program brought legions of sociallyliberal yankee rocket scientists to the south. It didnt do that either. Dodd found that the Space Centers recruit heavily from technicians and technologists raised and trained in the south. The personnel chief of the Huntsville Center told them 50 of the its employees came from al alabama. Dodd found the same was true in Cape Canaveral in florida. In her book, the political economy of the Space Program, economist mary hold man found very much the same thing. 38 of the people working in huntsville in 1965 worked in the area in 1960. Nearly 18 worked elsewhere in alabama. 30 of the labor force was from outofstate though largely from the south. In florida she found that about 28 of people employed in Brevard County in 1965 worked outside of florida in 1960. Dodd wrote that there seems to be no evidence of strong pressure for negro rights nor of strong sympathy among technologists for civil rights. Negroes appear to be an outside group presenting demands which would have to be dealt with in some way but which are no concern of theirs. We see this attitude playing out in the stories of men who we tell in the book and well tell a few of those stories here. One is a man named Julius Montgomery. Julius montgomery was the first africanamerican ever hired as anything other than a janitor at Cape Canaveral. Cape canaveral as you all know is where the rockets lifted off to the moon. He was hired as what was known as a range rat. And what that was, if from, if a missile misfired the range rats would go downrange, get the missile, figure out what went wrong and fix it. Julius was hired as a range rat. He was hired in the mid1950s at a time ku klux klan controlled east central florida. The sheriff of Orange County was a klansman. One person in the book said local businessmen joined the clan almost like joining the rotary club. So considering all of that, this is what Julius Montgomery faced on his first day of work. I was there. Nobody would shake my hand. I got to the last fellow, [laughter] how are you . Im Julius Montgomery. Boy, you dont talk to a white man like that. I said, oh, forgive me, owe great white, i really did say that. He laughed, i laughed. And shook each others hands. Gives you a sense of daytoday life for Julius Montgomery working with a bunch of klans men at Cape Canaveral. They also integrate ad southern college. We hear a lot of stories in civil rights literature of the integration of southern colleges. I know you have not heard of the integration of Florida Institute of technology which was found in 1959 as brevard engineering college. The first building was pub junior high school. Because it was Public School it meant blacks were not allowed n. Julius montgomery signed up to be the in the first class of brevard engineering college. Superintendent of schools when he saw a black man who got his undergraduate at tuskegee trying to enroll in the college. He called the president of the new college that said the school would not open if Julius Montgomery was a student there. The president of the college begged Julius Montgomery to please drop out of the school so that the school could open. And in an act of what i considered to be immense selflessness, Julius Montgomery agreed. He enrolled a year later and, the school did open. They did allow him in a year later. And now the Florida Institute of Technology Every year offers the Julius Montgomery pioneer award to an africanamerican who has made a contribution to the community, to thank him for this selfless act. Not everyone in our book worked for the Space Program. The next story that steven will tell involves through mean who used the Space Program, in this case, space age imagery, to achieve a civil rights victory in houston. Notice were going from coast to coast here on the space presence. This is in 1963 and the three men who are instrumental in using houstons space politics to advance racial politics were quinton neece, who was leader in the black community and executive director of the bag bistreet ymca. He would led protesters from Texas Southern university use the y as headquarters during their events. Another was stearns. He was a political activist and student organizer. The first president and cofounder of the tfu, progressive youth association. He also helped organize the 1960 lunch counter sitins in houston. And with him was otis king, a law student at tsu at the time. He also helped with the 1960 sitin and cofounded the pya with stearns. They started planning something in may 3rd of 1963 when Police Officers in birmingham, alabama, used dogs and fire hoses on protesters and arrested 2500 people. Angered by these events, stearns and king began to plan what is arguably the most successful civil rights protest that never happened. May 15th, gordon cooper, the astronaut, leaves earth for a 34 1 2 hour spaceflight. And that is the longest up to that time ever taken by an american. Houston, the home of the astronauts, planned a tickertape parade through the downtown for cooper on may 23rd. So the plan from otis king and aldrue stearns, have protesters infiltrate the crowd along the parade route. On the appointed time and signal they would pull signs out from underneath their clothes, run into the street, stop the parade, and Bring NationalMedia Attention to their cause, because all of the networks were going to be there covering this parade live. And on the day of the parade the pya protesters took their places. They hid homemade signs under their shirts and jackets. They went along the parade route. They kept an eye out for the nearest pay phone to call headquarters because that is only way they could do it. We had an audience this morning nobody really knew what pay phones were. So runners would go from these phones and call and receive calls from headquarters and then they would go up to the people on the side of the parade route and whisper instructions. Meanwhile king and stearns and the other pya leaders went to their headquarters at the Wheeler AvenueBaptist Church which had been recently opened by the reverend bill lawson, a tfu bible professor. And the pa rate is set to begin at 11 00 a. M. And by 10 30, the staging area is set, children are Holding American flags, theyre lining the parade route with their parents, people are in buildings ready to shower down paper and tickertape and negotiations still went on. At 10 40, 20 minutes before the protesters reached the failsafe, nice calls the church. Pya had won. The parade went on without protest and 30 days later, without press coverage or fanfare, downtown restaurants and movie theaters desegregated. Two years later, in april of 1965, black leaders with the help of High School Students from Texas Southern university and the university of houston organized 2000 blacks for a protest march against gradual desegregation. They turned houstons space age symbolism against the city with signs that read, spaceage houston, stoneage schools. Those pioneers who we talk about in the book is a man named frank crossly. Frank crossly never worked for nasa but work he did developing alloys for the skins of rocket and missiles was vital to nasas success. He was one of the u. S. Navys first black officers during world war ii. After the war, he decided on a career in engineering. His family had said no, become a doctor, maybe become a lawyer. He said he was going to become an engineer. But as a black man in america at that time, he knew he always needed to have a plan b. If i couldnt get a job as an engineer, i would either go to canada or mexico. Canada had the virtue of speaking english and mexico had the virtue of having colored people. He said he figured his chances of getting a job in the United States as a black man were about 50, 50. Maybe he would go to canada, maybe he would go to mexico instead. Today the terms of equal opportunity and affirmative action are commonplace but that was not the case in 1961. Frank crosslys stories illustrates. He was refuse ad management job because of his race. His mentor saying to hiring executive, you can no do that we are an equal Opportunity Employer. And crossly says when he heard the words he jumped up with a start, he never heard the phrase, equal Opportunity Employer before. This is an example of equal employment actually having a role in a persons life. Now despite being the first africanamerican to ever receive a phd in metallurgical engineering, he would meet a race bar more than once in his career. This is how he described a talk he said he had more than once with a supervisor. Oh, yes, youre qualified to be a Senior Member but because youre so advanced for a negro we thought you were content. We thought you were content because you were so advanced for a negro. Fixing racial equality in the work place was going to take more than just a president ial signature. Oh, im sorry. Now i stay at the podium because i have Something Else to talk about. Nasas first cooped students from historically black college came from Southern University in baton rouge and when they started at nasa it cause ad sensation in the black press. This is the headline in the chicago defender. Negro College Youth to boost first moongoer into orbit. The black press saw these young men going to nasa as an achievement for the nations africanamericans as a whole. The Space Program was americas signal accomplishment at this time. This showed that the black community too was going to help get america to the moon. Now it wasnt just the black press that noticed. This was the New York Times. It called the young men, social pioneers. It also said that nasa was having trouble recruiting africanamerican engineers to come south and the experience the coop students they had in alabama demonstrates why that was the case. The group including tommy, frank williams, george borda, and Morgan Watson. And in the book we talked principally with george and with Morgan Watson. The coops experience demonstrated the problems the New York Times talked about. When they got to alabama no one would rent them a hotel room, no one would rent them an apartment to live in. Morgan watson told us about the guys went to ray charles concert in huntsville. There was a rope right down middle of the aisle with blacks on one side and whites on the other side so god forbid nobody would dance together. Same thing happened at muhammad alisonny liston fight. Big Television Set in field. Rope down the middle of the field with the blacks on one side and the whites on the other. Recruiter, africanamerican recruiter at huntsville in alabama, got the black men homes in the black community in huntsville and that is where they lived during their time there. Despite nasas efforts to integrate their workforce. This is the way things were at nasa at the time coop students got thererd coulding to Morgan Watson. Black professionals at all. I dont think there were any clerical workers. I remember some grands keepers and janitors. He said there was no black professionals at all. In fact he told a story about a young man walking through the nasa facility one day in white shirts and skinny black ties and somebody came up to them, are you visiting dignitaries from africa . It hadnt occurred to them black americans could be working at nasa. Morgan watson said the young men felt the expectations that the black press had placed upon them. And we went out of our way to study late, to work hard, and do whatever it took to, what we felt that the whole image of black people were riding on us as professionals and we couldnt fail. We had to go forward and do our best. While nasa struggled to hire more africanamericans, the 1964 president ial election provide ad new political challenge that engulfed the agency and the marshall nasa, marshall center. Nasa administrator webb announced in later october, that huntsville management personnel might be transferred to new orleans or even to california. Now how much webbs statement had to do with race is all matter of conjecture. We do know qualified blacks and whites refused jobs at marshall because of alabamas race laws and the violent enforcement of those laws. The states reputation for bigotry also contributed to recruiting and retention problems for nasa. Putting race aside, the threat to move was a political statement. Whether it was meant to scare voters in alabama or encourage them elsewhere, also remain as mystery. It did however scare the huntsville business community. Jim dunne, the president of the Homebuilders Association of huntsville, telegraphed the white house within days of webbs announcement to report that Financial Institutions had stopped construction loans. Republican National Chairman dean burch, likened webbs statement to, political blackmail. The Baltimore Afroamerican gave the story front page coverage and editorialized that a nasa transfer and subsequent loss of federal money would teach alabama governor George Wallace that he is free to curse and damn the Central Government and have all the states rights he wants in alabama but he cant have his cake and eat it too. Johnson won the election but lost alabama and other southern states. By late 1964, verner von braun, the heard of the marshall center, former nazi, wartime head of hitlers missile program, became the point man on civil rights in alabama. Yeah, we did the same thing. We laughed too. In november, in a move demonstrating new federal activism on civil rights, nasa says von braun to Mills College in fairfield, alabama. Mills college was no ordinary place. It was, it served as the intellectual nerve center for the black community during the birmingham unrest. And that wasnt the only time that von braun stepped out in the cause of Race Relations. In a december 1964 speech to the Huntsville Chamber of commerce he requested that attendees ask themselves, are you doing everything in your power to strive for fair employment and improvement of racial relations in our city . He acknowledged that we should all admit this fact. Alabamas image is marred by civil rights incidents and statements. He went on to urge everyone to familiarize themselves with the equal opportunity section of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the rights of afforded and the obligations imposed by its provisions. Now tonight we have really only scratched the surface of the information in our book. There are a number about other stories we didnt tell. The story about nasa employee who revived and governed a defunct black town. How George Wallaces stand in the schoolhouse door was originally supposed to happen in huntsville, a direct challenge to the federal power that nasa represented and to an Agency Employee who wanted to take a math class. We didnt tell the story of the first wouldbe africanamerican astronaut, or about the africanamerican inventor of the first telescope ever placed on another planetary body. Now, there is a an important question to ask here, which, did any of this matter . Did it have a positive impact . Morgan watson, one of nasas first black engineers, said as far as he was concerned it certainly did. Certainly helped change not only nasa but the whole federal government. Laid the groundwork for the military on, for blacks to be intigrated into the work place by showing there were black professionals who could do that, you proved the fact that people were available that could do it. It helped to break the walls down. It helped change peoples perception of black people in the south. President kennedy said, that america had to pursue a Space Program because there was new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won and used for the progress of all people. Now of course, he was not talking about american Race Relations when he said that but an accident of timing and coincidence insured that the Space Program would help win rights and create progress for africanamerican in ways the president could not have imagined. In doing so, the Space Program would help white americans gain new knowledge about their black fellow citizens and their abilities. Thank you very much. And were happy to take questions. [applause] im told for cspan there is a microphone. If you have a question, raise your hand and someone will come to you with the microphone. Do we have any questions . Yes . Hello. You guys are profiling black men. As black women is that a topic in your book . Well, so, there was an extra layer of, an extra degree of difficulty when it comes to africanamerican women. The, all of the documents that i found in looking in the nasa employment and equal employment material would say things like, well, we brought in 110 negro women from alabama a m and we gave them typing test, none of them passed. It never occurred to anybody that women might be mathematicians. Might have engineering. Engineering skills was difficult. I did a documentary on the first africanamericans in the Space Program, which is one of the places where this got started but i also did one in the same group about the first women in the Space Program. One of the women i talked to in the program said she wanted to go to Emory University to study engineering. Women were not allowed in the engineering school. I mean you couldnt go. I thinks that with the case in many other engineering schools around the country so, number one it didnt occur to anybody at nasa to ask women to be anything other than typists. But, you know they might not have been able to. It was extra hurdle it to get over. It was tough enough to be after man concern but being a woman on top was harder. There were some instances at some facilities of africanamerican women in non clerical, but that is a double discrimination area. First, the africanamerican issue and second women were largely confined to clerical, secretarial jobs within most federal agencies i think, definitely within nasa. And even into the 1970s, if you start to look at some of the demographics, women werent really working in very large numbers in socalled, hard sciences. They were in nutritional science and other things like that. So an africanamerican woman trying to enter the nasa workforce as an engineer is, is a rarity and faces an almost impossible Job Interview given the nature of the time. It shouldnt excuse the nature of the time but it, as richard said, it is almost inconceivable that anyone would have hired that person, if that person had even come along. It was hard enough for, well, to give you an idea, in 1963 and 64 and 65, there were 11 africanamericans employed by nasa at Cape Canaveral. 11 out of 1500 employees. At mississippi, in 1965, there were zero nasa africanamerican employees, but 750 africanamericans employed by nasa contractors. Now we dont know if those were all male or or fee but, given the discrime nation practices at the time and gender issues, it would be really until the 1970s and 1980s that women started to do make an impact. Do we have any other questions . Yes. In front of the microphone. One of the most interesting parts of this story i always think is werner von brauns involvement. Can you talk a little bit more how he got involved in the first place. I know this would have been 18 to 20 years after the end of world war ii. So, how did he get involved with nasa, with nasa in the first place . How did he get involved with the u. S. Government in the first place . Kind of how was he brought in . He seems like really unlikely kind of ally. So at the end of the Second World War there was a scramble by the americans and the soviets to see who was going to get hold of the best german rocket scientists. You know, the nazis were really advanced, the germans were really advanced with rockets and missiles. And all of the best scientists were germans. And there was a desperate scramble between americans and russians there. Is great new book by lani at auburn university, called german rocket tears in the heart of dixie, that tells the story really, really well. The americans got von braun and a lot of his key men and shipped them off, first to texas . I think first they were in new mexico. White sands, new mexico. Then they brought them to fort bliss, in texas and then they settled in huntsville, alabama. Then in the 1950s, when the Eisenhower Administration is finally convinced through a lot of armtwisting to start a civilian Space Program, werner von braun is put in charge what then becomes the Marshall Space Flight center which is a place where the rockets are built and tested. So von braun is a very significant person in huntsville, alabama. Steven, you talked in your original paper about the influence that the germans had. Germans came, i dont want to say civilizing effect on huntsville but, they brought a european, cosmopolitan sense to the community. And if, if you talked to people who were there at the time and raid the reports from the mayor and all of that, germans saved huntsville and created this whole culture and that actually helped a lot as huntsville became much more progressive relative to the rest of alabama in the 1950s and 60s. Von braun is central to nasas success as an engineer. He is central to nasas success in standing up to George Wallace because there was no federal politician that had that credibility to people in alabama. Not president kennedy. Not attorney general kennedy. Not later president johnson. This is von braun. He had gone to the legislature several times to get money for universities, research centers. This was braun. He was one of us. When he starts standing up to George Wallace and the Alabama Legislature on race issues, that means something. He is not a yankee. He is not somebody from somewhere else. He is not a washington bureaucrat. He is the guy if huntsville. Thats right. If you ever get a chance to read the hate mail that he received, there were a lot of people who wrote him, bringing up his past during the war, saying, we thought you understood us . And, essentially calling him a race traitor for standing up and advocating civil rights here in alabama. So, his was an evolution. Now whether he was truly a civil libertarian, he had seen the light and been converted, or whether he just wanted to build rockets and he would say and do whatever cleared that path. Yeah. Depends on which biography you want to read and how want to believe. There are very good biographies. Mike new felleds von braun, is a wonderful place to start and possibly even finish. Yeah. We have a story in the book of George Wallace, when he was preparing to run for president. He ran for president in 1968. He is gearing up to run for president he decides that he will invite the National Press to come along on something he called, the real alabama tour. He will show them the real alabama. Not all this stuff you hear about in the media. And he makes a decision to come to nasa because he loved to sort of glom on to nasa, say, look what i, look what i brought to alabama. And and he decides at the last minute he is going to come along with this cadre of National Press. And he also make as last minute decision to bring the entire Alabama Legislature along with him. Mike newfelt who was von brauns biographer gave me a transcript. Von brauns phone was bugged and in a conversation between von braun, jim webb the head of nasa and also the head of the Army Ballistic Missile agency which was next to the Marshall Space Flight center. Talking about how will we box out George Wallace . Wallace is coming here . How will we turn the tables on wallace to make this a nasa event rather than a George Wallace event. It is von braun, comes up with idea of saturn v engine test. If you have ever seen a rocket launch, a engine test is rocket launch except the rocket never leaves the launchpad. They strap it down. It has the county down and the tension and flames and noise and rocket just sit there is. Von braun says well have a saturn saturn v engine test. We pen them in. Cant go there for security reasons. When theyre all sitting there, well go over and talk to them. So he have this the rocket test. The Alabama Legislature is there. George wallace is there. National press is there. After the engine test is done, web and von braun come in and lecture George Wallace and Alabama Legislature about civil rights. And that was the number one story in the newspapers the next day. George wallace had a press conference that night. Nobody asked any questions. Reporters were, yeah, we dont care about this. And this but as steven said, there was nobody who had the gravitas and who had done as much for alabama and could step in and take on somebody like George Wallace. There was no one like werner von braun who was able to do that. Do we have any other questions . Anyone . Yes . All right. Well, i just got the book. I just read the preface and tells the story of the first kind of failed phone interview with frank williams, right . Got me thinking, youre talking to these guys, were they all phone interviews, or were you able to get facetoface time with them . If so, are there any kind of interesting interpersonal anecdotes you might want to share, not appropriate in the context of the book that would shed light on their character . My favorite, i got a large grant from the National Science foundation to create the documentary and create a series of programs for kids at the national air and space museum. So all, who we could bring, all of the men who were interviewed in the book who we could bring came up to washington for an event and we had, first of all Julius Montgomery, who was probably 89 at that point, i called him up, so can you come . He said yeah i can come. One thing, my girlfriend has to come with me. I said your girlfriend . He said, yeah. She has a problem. She is 90. And she dont get around too good. So julius and his girlfriend and Morgan Watson were on panel. Morgan watson, first africanamerican engineer at nasa. Julius montgomery, first africanamerican hired at professional at Cape Canaveral with a panel with mae jemison, first africanamerican in space and leo melvin, first africanamerican, just gotten back from International Space station a week ago. You have the whole legacy, right up there, at this table together. We had q a. We did an