Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The War On Women In Israel 20150216

Thoughts on the religious and political oppression that women face in israel. This is book tv on cspan2. [inaudible conversations] good evening. I evening. I am Gabriel Sanders director of Public Programs, and its my great pleasure to welcome you to this evenings discussion of the war on women in israel with Elena Stockman and Nancy Kaufman. Before i go any further and i like to ask you to silence your cell phones. Teetwelve is here to film tonight, and if your phone should ring your shame we will be recorded for all of america to see. It is also my pleasure to say that the museums Public Programs are made possible through the generous gift for misses billy safra. Programs come about for all sorts of reasons. Some commemorate anniversaries others mark holidays. The impetus behind tonights program was something more pedestrian and perhaps more profound, an airplane seat. Elena stockman was on a plane from new york last fall when an ultraorthodox fellow passenger delayed the takeoff because he would not sit next to her. The experience was especially jarring as you just on a a tour discussing the place of women in Israeli Society. The tour focused on questions like who gets to sit where in israel today both literally and figuratively speaking and who has the power to make those sorts of decisions. The story of the ordeal has reported on her own blog and in the online magazine tablet that went it went viral. It passed a cast a light on sexism that is in many ways at the heart of israeli public life. We are delighted to have her here with us today. She just blew in from israel we hope our trip was without incident. Elena stockman is the author of several books on feminism in jewish life including educating in the divine image, gender issues and Orthodox Jewish schools which last year won the National Jewish Book Council Award in education. She will be joined on stage by Nancy Kaufman ceo of the National Council of jewish women. Prior to joining the ncj w she served as the executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council of boston. Please join me in welcoming the stage. [applause] thank you, gabriel. Thank you to the museum of jewish heritage for hosting this very important conversation and thanks to all of you who have come out in this cold and wet whether to be hear. This is exciting to me. Someone i 1st met. The orthodox terminus alliance and we were partners in terms of some of the issues that we both cared about which you probably know is 120yearold organization. We are a progressive jewish we are a progressive jewish womans organization that organizes activists to take a stand on issues of universal concern both in the United States and israel its a pleasure to be here with you. So let me begin at the beginning. Its not its not exactly the beginning but the beginning of the modern state of israel and remind everybody of that very beautiful declaration in 1948 hours so happily and proudly endorsed as the United States at the un. We ensure complete equality of social and Political Rights irrespective of religion and begin with that because 1st of all of very proud as an american jew that israel did something the United States and never done which is to recognize that sex, equality is just as important as race or religion. Thats the good news. The bad news is that sadly the Founding Fathers did not quite understand what would happen as a result of the lack of separation of religion and state and the subsequent events. Want to begin by asking alana who has written a wonderful book. Its really quite a wonderful coming together of the issues that we had worked on. Well talk more about that with the overarching theme and intent and probably i assume it is your intent and will ask you helping to ensure the israeli nation of hold the progressive moral and social vision to which it was established. You say that in your introduction. Talk to us a little bit about why this book why now, and that i want to talk to you a little bit about some of the challenges and opportunities that the modern jewish faith has. First of all, i just just want to say theyre are a lot of places in israel where the activism is not really has been really crucial. So i just want to a knowledge them saying thank you for all that they do and continue to do. So why this book and why now . So i have been living in israel for over 20 years. We moved to israel because we believe in it we believe in the importance of the jewish state and ultimately want to see the jewish state for phil its mission for being a state founded on a particular morality. It was founded in order to be a refuge for vulnerable people. And so that should really still be very much a Jewish Mission also. So when you see the state not living up to that mission especially when it comes to women and and he fit into that category, theres something very painful about that. It comes from a belief that israel can do better and should do better. Its interesting that you start with the declaration of independence which does mention sex is something that we need to aspire to and actually in the 50s it was probably ahead of the United States a lot of issues. Issues. Womens employment was higher in the 50s. A lot of women were expected to work in his room and there were even some laws put in place to protect women and work, to protect pregnant women, to women, to protect mothers. There was something called mommy always back then which a women have to be allowed to leave to pick up the children are things like that. So women were expected to work from and there were a lot of images. In some ways they were ahead uncertain parameters. Within all that there was what you call the contradictions. For example, we will get to those in a minute. Stay on the images. So we are all familiar. You know the power of that image. Were still waiting to have a woman president in the United States. A woman prime minister. Laws in place before we had a Womans Movement in the United States. You had wellintentioned democracy from the getgo. Perhaps a little flawed. Let me ask you this what happened along the way . Why is it that the feminist movement of the 1960s and the United States really kind of didnt happen until much later and you know, talk a little bit about those contradictions, those images. With a real, not real . The israeli feminist movement didnt really take off in the 60s and 70s the way it did in america. And for the most part that has to do with these sort of survivalist mentality. When you are fighting for your very existence, the only thing that matters. We cant be bothered dealing with social issues. It wasnt just the gender issue or other social issues, issues of racism classism, ethnicity, ethnic strife all of those social issues. We can be bothered to deal with that. So what you have is a society developing very much around army, army culture and the army culture is one of the most chauvinistic institutions in israel. To this day the army has to do a lot to try to remedy that. At the end of the day theyre are a lot of chauvinistic attitudes and practices that are taking place. That dominates the culture for a long time. Women served in the military and israel long before they served in the military in the United States. 93 percent can technically be held by women or men. Something to be said about it in theory except they are the ones that need to get better jobs and better positions in society. Its no accident that netanyahu and the head of the jewish home all of them were part of the most elite unit in the army. So the army is this preparation ground for society for the business leadership, Economic Leadership and a soap when when men are diverted away from those jobs so you are creating the basis for inequality and the rest of society and also until the early 90s when men really couldnt even be in those jobs when she thought to bring women into the air force. They started bringing women into the positions and they are aware during the operation protective edge last year there were a lot of promotions to show when men but they never released to the actual figures because the actual figures are Something Like less than 4 . So they didnt release the figures they just tried to show. They realized that theres a problem, so its actually starting to work on this. Its very pervasive. So we know that religion has played a very big role in recent years particularly more so in recent years in terms of the number of women. We had an experience in 2012 2011 when we were freedom writers. We rode the buses in jerusalem and experienced firsthand what it was like to get on a bus, the stared at have people not willing to sit next to you and it was a very emotional experience. So talk a little bit about the bus segregation and your own story about the bus trip. I didnt know there was such a thing as segregated as is most because there wasnt such a thing as segregated buses so i told about how in 1994 when my daughter was young, shes now an officer in the army but we didnt go segregated until i got to the bus and shes sleeping on my shoulder and the guy in the front seat twentysomething with a black hat it was saturday night right after he gets up and says there i was a young mother and he addresses me to sit down and this older guy must have been in his 60s he says this poor kid is like 23yearsold. He looks at the guy next to him and finally he looks at me and says what am i going to do and he sits back down and i go to the back and find a seat in the back but that was my first experience. I didnt know that existed and the truth is it wasnt official. It wasnt an official segregated bus. I think back to that story and it was sort of a moment of cultural transition meaning that the ambivalence represented a shift in the culture. He was in this place where he thought it was okay for a woman to sit down but the rules were changing. The experience that we had is that some of the when and women when we sat in the front came down from the back of the bus and asked us in hebrew wouldve been were doing and why. They were wondering whats going on. They had to go to the back of the bus. We see the Phyllis Schlaflys of the world and people take that world where we are going to preserve the gender order for lots of reasons there are women whom the gender inequality that we have is so comfortable and safe and what is known to them and undoing all that could be asked even though scary and frightening for whatever reason. So sometimes they are even more vehement and we cant make a change. One of the contradictions here, and it is good news that the Supreme Court of israel which was one of the most liberal in the world and the most unusual thing you can petition directly as a citizen in and the Supreme Court actually took this case up and when we came to town it was right after that they are were no signs up saying that you couldnt do this and the bus drivers were ignoring candidate were still segregated. So what is the contradiction and what has happened . The freedom ride played a huge role especially in raising Public Awareness and also in terms of correcting data. Thats when the police started taking everything seriously and collecting the data and they found that there was some bullying going on which was important. They said you cant force anybody. But in reality the fact on the ground didnt match what the Supreme Court said which represents the governments ambivalence about it the transport ministry was ambivalent. They wanted to appease the population did so the thing that made the difference at the end what made the difference is planned for the strikers started getting fined and the first time he got fined about a months salary for letting bullying has been on his bus. My friends in tel aviv thought i was crazy. What are you talking about segregated buses in jerusalem. You want to come with me . They didnt believe me. That situation has gotten better there were over 150 segregated lines running through israel and since the Supreme Court action and the finding of the bus driver is now less than 50. So it is definitely progress. But its still there and theres still tension. Also sometimes when we travel back from the community elite the buses are much more frequent so every once in a while i find myself taking the bus and many of them are segregated. I havent figured out how before getting on i recently sat in the front on a segregated bus. I have to admit i was a little anxious because it is really uncomfortable. You feel very stared at and unwanted and or breaking all these codes into you shouldnt have to feel that way like i am a woman and i wear pants and im sitting here where im not supposed to be. It is that feeling of by the very essence of who you are you are not wanted in this space. Its very hard. Its very very hard. We made some progress. I want to let them know that there are challenges and opportunities and success. Lets talk about the racing the womens public presence and what has been happening in terms of speaking at conferences and again they will talk about the billboards and some examples you tell in the book. So there is this woman that is a very impressive woman and she spent 45 years working as a researcher and she opens up this clinic for pediatric diseases. Very impressive and so the industry decides to keep her apprised for her work only when the ceremony happens and you give her the prize she wasnt allowed to go on stage. Somebody else went on stage. They wouldnt allow the women on stage so here is a woman that had a 45 years of work but at the end of the day all that mattered is that she is a woman and so what is frightening about this is the health ministry. This isnt some private little religious group. This is the government. And so you really have to wonder what this means. This isnt an isolated example. There are examples in the post offices and libraries and perhaps the most painful experiences are about womens exclusions where women cant go to deliver. It happens in a lot of different places and its always sort of a surprise where suddenly thought that the somebody will say women cant go to the front or we will see a man and woman together. So, the Action Center they collected stories. They collected a book of stories of women and their experiences of being segregated out of the funerals of their loved ones. So theres a lot happening against the municipality from one of these women who had this really devastating experience at the funeral of a loved one. And we have the experience with funding we funded posters that had romantic images and they were being vandalized. Said, there are a couple of facets to the removal of when and so what i described would be the physical removal and what youre describing is the resulted where Angela Merkel was removed we saw that this has been going on for many years and of course the iconic picture of Hillary Clinton and the assassination of Osama Bin Laden so that image was removed. She was the restart of that picture. So it has taken place around the city of jerusalem. What happened is that this group started a campaign that means we wont be censored to try to get when inspectors back. The Advertising Company that is responsible for the billboards on the bus had a policy that said we dont take pictures of the women on the bus in jerusalem which isnt a religious company it is a secular company. No pictures on the buses of jerusalem and then of course the billboards and all the different government ministries were capitulating to the policy. You had the Education Ministry where 75 of all of the workers would have advertising posters where they had pictures of men but outside that there were no pictures of men. The company is also had separate ads so that you didnt have to see a picture of a woman. Sometimes they do would show a woman from the neck down cutting off a womans head. So there were moments in the Campaign Working very hard to trick you get them and they went to the Supreme Court and they also had this campaign of taking pictures of one man and girls and women and girls in jerusalem taking pictures of themselves. So the good news is the campaign worked. But again, it was also supported by the removal of the womens images was supported so they had a marathon every year if you look at the brochure is there were no pictures of women running on the website and this is a municipality he agreed to do this to promote jerusalem events like a marathon and without pictures of women so through the campaign and the Supreme Court and petitioning things would change and for the first time they had pictures of men again and now of course the cabinet woman in jerusalem last year had to go to the Supreme Court to get the Supreme Court to agree to allow her pictures on the buses. We saw the whole campaign. And of course this is all illegal because even though theres no constitution, there is the basic declaration of independence that stands in place. So its illegal the Supreme Court always rules in the case of women. Thank god we have the court in israel and they are willing to balance it out. This modesty of these people that really decided to make up for modesty squads you talk about that in the book and your own daughter in that so show that example. She gets called names when shes wearing shorts. It wasnt just one incident. It happened a lot shes on the bus wearing shorts, she would get all kinds of stared at and made fun of. We discussed a little bit about the idea. I want to talk about the power of the court because i think that the Secular Forces that allow this to continue and it is also unfortunately undergird some of the issues that weve cared about four israels existence at the freedom to marry and the freedom to divorce and the whole experience of what happens to a woman is the power of the courts and the fact theyve been on the committee to change the councils but talk to us a little because hopefully we will get into it more and questions at the end. How is this looking and is there hope for whats helped him but not helped the situation and how do you see this as a womens issue . The v. Monopoly on the divorce conversion is really probably one of the greatest threats to the basic civil rights in israel the court institution is probably the most sexist institution and a there are no women anywhere. Women cant be judges and women cant even work and the whole organization and its based on very strict and extreme interpretations of jewish law that really treat women very unfairly. And youve seen the movie debt which is i recommend to everybody thats seen the movie to really understand the dynamics of what goes on in the religious court and how detached the courts are from basic human sensibility and respect for women as human beings. It is just a complete lesser being and the judge is telling her how she should dress and that her hair and how she should talk and when she cant and the assumption of a talk to women are completely different. Its a, but the fact is that courts have this monopoly on divorce means that when men dont have the free exit power of marriage. Marriage is scheduled by the volition of man which is of course the orthodox state backed court so you have all of these different layers of the control of womens lives and tens of thousands who are stuck, stored up started stuck in limbo in this system that often can drag on for years. Women are subject to all different kinds of extortion. I didnt know when my grandmother used to when it came from these children that are totally innocent victims really. They keep a blacklist of like 4,000 or 5,000 people that are not allowed to marry. And actually, this woman is tracking this issue. She is leading the fight against the terrible harm being done to people on the blacklist so i highly recommend everyone to look her up. One step in the right direction that happened fairly recently was requiring the committees putting women on the committees for the appointment of the judges. Not on the courts themselves. They are now on the committees that picked the judges is that right . Spinnaker thats an important first step. Having a woman actually work in a professional capacity organization where at this point we are at the second step in a there are a lot of women groups fighting for that as well. Ultimately the most important action to be taken to protect basic Civil Liberties in terms of all that is there has to be a separation of religion at this point. There has to be a mechanism for civil marriage and civil divorce so that if there is a monopoly on womens life it doesnt even affect just religious women. Its not a matter of choice, it is because is mandated by the state so that is the separation of religion and the state that is the most important step for the future of the basic rights. And we all know that it was sort of a blind spot that had been envisioned. I can say in our own country we do have a separation in the states. Some people have forgotten that and it is somehow the governments role to protect womens bodies and reproductive rights. We are concerned about this from the point of view of whats happening in our own country even though we have have separation supposedly and we are concerned about it in israel and have taken an active position of supporting civil marriage. Its not just a civil marriage about having a civil marriage option. The ability to get married by the conservative rabbi so if you dont happen to be married a lot of people dont understand that so there is a Broad Coalition in the community worldwide. The question that comes out for me and a lot of this is to what extent has the community than complicit and to what extent by not advocating for changes have been on the orthodox people and groups capitulated and how does that contribute and what is that all about . That is a perfect example. Somehow you have this idea that the right thing to do is to die on the website or brochure or the buses for example if the Advertising Company youre not a religious company but they think this is what they want so, for example when he was the speaker of the house he made the decision not to allow them to stay in the choir so he did it because he didnt want to offend the sensibilities of the party. Because they are just women but you cant offend the religious party. So its that kind of thinking which we dont want to offend those religious parties that really is the most damaging and its really interesting because it isnt really what all people want at all. Its just the extremists. You know that it was proven with the story of the Radio Station and this is important. Its funded by the government and it didnt allow women on the air. They didnt allow women djs or news readers or advertising or even to call and ask a question to the news presenter. If a woman wants to ask a question she has to staff again and it will be read by a man. So they got together and petitioned against this and it is illegal. So in this hearing how the business had of the station came and said also he he isnt religious but he is the Business Manager and he said what can you do, this is what clients want. Originally the government still said welcoming you cant do it you have to give them a few hours. They didnt give it so the womens group pushed more and finally said you know what you are claiming that this is what your clients want but we dont think thats true which by the way they say men. Even the man only count as listeners. So what they do is the womens group organization. Of the people that are regularly listening to the Radio Station did the work and didnt just say that you hear the work, they would say what program is on tuesday at 10 00 to make sure that people really listen and what they discovered. But they what they found is that 60 or 70 of the people wanted to hear when incident is an important point. Be sued for 100 million which is about 25 million about two months ago they won the lawsuit which is a huge precedent. Business and political leaders that are secular. It isnt really with any community wants. Before we open it up we want to talk about i want to segue into talking about what kind of collaboration exists between the religious feminists and human rights activists because not everyone understands the people in the religious community that are beginning to speak out and particularly women but some men too and what is the relationship for example the type of work that theyve been doing like with the freedom ride it seems to me that they were in collaboration with the feminist group that this sends a really very powerful message about what we are talking about here. The play a key role in leading the change from within. The religious feminist groups are basically saying this is not the way religion is going to be but its only with the collaboration with secular civil rights that it becomes powerful and he really get the change. I think thats thats why weve had a series of these. It points to the power of advocates and activists to actually create change. That is what we have been doing for a hundred and 20 years. We have been trying to organize jewish women to make change in the world doing in here, in israel and to the interNational Council of jewish women internationally. As as he said, there are examples, the Supreme Court more than once intervened and these situations. Its a start. We been involved in Un Resolution 1325. All peacemaking committees. The nations resolution. Finally. Theres a connection between the Un Resolution 1325 and change all around. A steady increase of women over the past decade. It still only about 26 women have a hundred and 20 which is still pretty low. In the last two is not just the number of women that has increased but the number of women with feminist consciousness. And so that has brought a lot of these issues you know much more powerful ways which is created a whole slew of real activism. And so you have activism in the Judicial Branch the legislative branch. It comes from and then of course on the ground. When it comes from these Different Directions thats very important. Having some really strong feminist legislators has been invaluable which his wife its so important. We know that theyre are more women around the table, more solutions. The different approach to the decisionmaking. So before i conclude and open it up for audience questions talk to us a little bit about the story. Zero so this is the most recent victory which is really. So its not just that theyre are signs on the street this a women cant walk your assigns of the street as they women are here and they have to dress a certain way and is backed by violence. You have these different violent thugs, groups throughout that throughout all sorts of other things. Perceived perceived as not being dressed that way way. So shes an American Woman and she was riding her bike down the street in her house and was hit in the head with a rock. To to get together with a few other women who were also hurt and together to hold the municipality responsible to say if you have signs in your city this a women arent allowed your were that women have to be just a certain way, you are responsible that violence comes from that. This loss is been going on for about two years. There were some difficult hearings because the mayor was said some really obnoxious things basically saying that the women dont count as constituents. You know, so offend women. The mayor pre much said the same thing. Well, i cant offend my constituents. Constituents. Women are constituents to. So you know, twoyear lawsuit last week two weeks ago already the courts came down in favor of the women and they committed the municipality to remove the signs. Thirty days remove the signs the municipality is forced. Thats a huge precedent in a message for the rest. Its not okay to have assigned anywhere in israel this has women are not allowed your whole women home women can walk into this clinic if they are addressed you know in a particular way. You. You cant do that. So this is really important. And thats recent. Its its all brandnew, happening now, shifting now. Of course we open up i want to just include. The book is well worth you getting. But i think this is very important. Certainly not antireligion and this is about being against orthodox. Being orthodox. Being against womens rights to have an equal status. I want to be clear. Im not suggesting that anyone who is religious not to be religious. On the contrary, i believe it can be a beautiful thing. It can it can provide connections, meaning, Purpose Community structure, tradition heritage care responsibility and so much more. She goes on to describe why she is a believer and what the essences of religion and above all to guide us to be better kinder people and to deeply care about the state of humanity and work to improve it because after all that is what religion is supposed to do. The problem she says in conclusion is that so much is what is given to us under the guise of religiousness is just not actually religious at all. Whether its whether its a muslim cleric comparing violence against women to training donkeys, a conservative american political candidate trying to control womens reproductive rights with an antiabortion platform or a man a man spitting in a young woman of the bus. There are people on the world who claim to represent or do things in the name of religion is simply are not. This is fundamentally not what it needs to be religious. So thank you. Very beautiful. I want to thank a lot of the coming year. Thank you thank you so much. And we would like to open it up and see if you would like to raise any questions about anything we talked about Everything Else. I have a question. I just have to give your microphone. Individual rabbis or is this all in jerusalem . So in israel the funerals are controlled by the funeral organization. They state that. It is a state institution. Within the religious ministry. It controls things. Its hard to wrap your head around this. Were not talking much right now. Very embarrassing. Okay. Right. So this organization. In each city they manage and run funerals but they have there own city municipal is the stories. Its sort of a little bit. You dont you dont really know. Its hard to know exactly which cities this will be taking place. Also, you know, the funeral is such a vulnerable situation and yearend and is not something that you you necessarily have planned or researched or investigated the way you do for a wedding. But the particular rabbi is doing the funeral. Rabbis dont do funerals. Its not that a rabbi does a funeral. Funeral. You go to the cemetery. Imposing. Is random. Okay. Other questions . There was another question. I came in late, so you may have answered part of this. You discussed. Our women allowed to be lawyers before the court . Yes. So women can go in and represent another woman . Yes. Can you elaborate to whatever extent you can the status of women on the Supreme Court . The secular Supreme Court . Yes. A pretty good record on women. Chief justice. Exactly. But that is separate from the Rabbinical Court. Two totally separate. In. In fact in israel their is something called a race to the courthouse because even though you can only finalize your divorce in the rabbinical core system you can actually do Everything Else in the Family Court System and just sort of show up. You can go to family court renegotiate custody and you know all the arrangements and then just go to the Rabbinical Court and say were ready. So a lot of women getting divorced like to do that. They like to go to the secular core system with another will get a fair treatment. Though get a much fairer treatment in the secular family court that you can only open up your Divorce Proceedings in one state. You can only file for divorce in one place. Theres a race to the courthouse. The men are running to Rabbinical Court because they no they we will get a better treatment. Women are running to the secular court, the family court. And a and a lot of the hotlines like Domestic Abuse outlines and all kinds of different hotlines in israel say if youre thinking about getting divorced keep it secret for a while because you have to get to the courthouse 1st and then tell your husband that you filed for divorce. Isnt it true that if they get all the paperwork done they officially have been given all that they have, they dont get. And not divorced. Here in the United States whether you do or not. Exactly. Assisting. And so to have. Object. They dont have any say about it. It really is completely to suffer systems. They have nothing to say. And they dont go to the Supreme Court. They go to rabbinical. Its really one of the big problems. They dont answer to anyone. There is no real accountability. Is plenty. There is legislation right now that has been introduced. It introduced. It has not yet gotten there. We hope eventually it we will. A lot of advocacy going on. One on. One of the issues we didnt touch on that relates to this is conversion. A complex issue. Also impact on the issue of conversion. Absolutely. They have there say. I would also like to add that this last session was the 1st time in 30 years that there was a a coalition without any religious parties in it which had a lot to do. 119 mandates. He ran on this platform of really trying to separate religion and state. The 1st one in a very long time to really say we dont want. A little bit of a compromise thats why the government collapsed actually. On the upcoming election is going to be really interesting to see how much power is sort of anti religious platform gets. How much power this idea how much power is going to have. Its really crucial to be able to pass the legislation and what we have found is that until and unless the israeli Secular Society sees this an issue that they care about. This is not an israel issue. Issue. Its more and more being seen as an israel issue. So many people trying to get married in israel. All all the russians whether they are jewish or not. So i think theres a growing sense and the reform conservative movement. So a growing sense within Israeli Society that theres too much control and religion is plain to bigger role and we should remember that the synagogue that the israelis dont go to is the orthodox synagogues of the have not care that much. Now they have alternatives. Other points, questions . Question, is ll airline subsidized by the state of israel . It is a government corporation. Its not what it used to be. It used to be a peace of the government, but you no a lot of time separating out sort of selling off pieces of the government, privatizing. Was i. I wanted to know, know, i have read your project. Im planning to read it. What happens with the seat . But in previous times is best to get involved. The staff tried to accommodate. You know this is happened. This happened in september. It september. It was just the 1st time that i blogged about it. It happened to me as well. Much rather put me in 1st class. I decided to do something that and never really done before. And the reason why was because i didnt want to be a hypocrite come to places like this and talk about segregation. What is happening stay quiet so the guy was running up and down the aisle for a good 20 of 30 minutes. Watching this happen. About 15 or 20. It was two days before. It was a big i dont no what it was. And was. And so from watching this happen. The whole time i have all of these thoughts of things that i really would like to say but im sort of holding my time. Finally right before he found somebody else to sit next to me i said you know can i Say Something . I decided to speak up. Well he was puttering was having an internal dialogue. And so and so i decided to Say Something. I wanted to frame it in a way that he would be able to understand. So i said, you know, how would you feel if instead of men and women we were talking about jews and nonjews. How would you feel sitting here and a whole bunch of nonjews, cant sit next to you. No offense. You know youre going to cause me to send. Your impure. Youre on a higher level, of course but course but i cant be near you because it turns my thoughts bad for it against my religion. Whatever it is is you going to try to say its not going to work. I tried to say this. All these men turn their backs one after the other. The swallow black backs. And that i have to admit was the hardest part. Because suddenly you just feel like youre not a person. You just feel feel i cannot a person. And so i stopped talking and said you no what was looking at the window. I i started to cry. I dont know why. There was something. It just come back to this two and a half week of all these different tocsin was traveling around. It was so difficult. I wrote this little blog. But once i did its out there. But you no what didnt happen from all of that i still do did not get a call. Oh, would you like to see a cup of coffee or something . Would you like a hundred points . Nothing. I was a really good flyer, flying, coming to, coming to new york six or seven times year at least. I thought they would notice. A really good to do with them a letter . Are of them so many. So many times. And thats when i realized the reason why the flight attendants listen to the men is because the men act as a a block. You know, if one rabbi gets up and says oh you can fly anymore than the entire group does it. Questions or comments . I cant see. The synagogue that i go to is currently evaluating whether or not they should become egalitarian. Right now right now they have a compromise solution where some people want to sit separately some people want to sit together. It occurs to me that if im really unhappy with whatever decision they reach i can find myself and the egalitarian synagogue and go to it wherever it happens to be. I cant imagine, i just visited israel in november. I cant imagine how it must be living in a a soc