[inaudible conversations] good afternoon everyone. I would like to welcome you to this afternoons session of the washington history seminar and for those of you who dont know the seminar is a joint project of the Woodrow Wilson Centers History and Public Policy program and the american Historical Associations National history center. My name is eric arnesen and im from George Washington university. Im the cochair on behalf of the National History center of the seminar. As is our custom i want to thank two people whose behindthescenes effort makes the seminar possible on a weekly basis. At amanda monies and pete. Its their logistical work that allows us to pull this off. I would also like to express thanks to shafer the society of Foreign Relations whose generous contributions support the seminars activities. Todays speaker is Bartholomew Sparrow who is a professor of government at the university of texas. He is the author of multiple works including from the outside in, world war ii and the american state the answer cases of the emergence of the american empire and uncertain guardians, the news media as a political institution. Professor sparrow has been a Woodrow Wilson center fellow end date jones Shorenstein Center fellow as well and hes a rapist recipient of the letter deployed aboard and Franklin Burdett pi sigma award from Political Science association. Today he will be talking on his new book which is published by Public Affairs press called the strategist Brent Scowcroft and the call of National Security. Thank you for having me. A friend in washington if someone is stabbed you in the chest. This is one of scowcrofts jokes and the irony is he has someone who has many friends and is well admired and adored in washington. Its good to be back at the Wilson Center and to be speaking under the auspices of the National History center did my time here in 2009 is a resident fellow was invaluable for making this project possible and i benefited greatly from the intellectual bierman to the many speakers and symposia learning from the other researchers the administrators and the staff. I would like to thank Christian Osterman roger lewis and the others who made this possible. Amanda monies and pete vere sticker in particular. Incidentally when i first considered what i would title the biography there were a few books called the strategist. In the meantime three books have been published in the same title. One is a Police Procedural anothers a financial thriller and a third is advising how to be the leader in business needs. So much for planning. What is interesting though is that few in washington and around the country what is interesting is many in washington and around the country dont think of scowcroft is a strategist that merely as one of Richard Nixon and gerald fords, National Security adviser to george h. W. Bush and a longtime washington insider. For some the title may ring counterintuitively. If hes not a strategist in the sense of the sun tzu were carl von clausewitz neither is he a strategist in his claims to anticommunist manifesto the world analyst in the matter of Henry Kissinger sweeping arguments and world order. In fact several of my interviewees including a former secretary of defense National Security adviser told me they didnt especially think of Brent Scowcroft is a strategist. With one former official saying he regarded schoolcraft is operating between the 40yard lines. Those that knew him most closely u. S. And foreignpolicy officials alike including helmut kohl has spoken admirably of scowcroft strategic sense. Its just that he has kept his strategists largely out of view with a few exceptions. What has been the opeds most noticeably in 2002 in the wall street journal and joining the george w. Bush administration not rush to war against iraq. Kroft has written about 100 opeds most all of them went out of office these provide provided piecemeal and periodic glimpse of him as a strategist. His Strategic Vision is further revealed and coauthor commissioned Study Reports that these two are focused on specific topics and limited by the short length. Even in his coauthor books go kroft has received second billing perhaps because of the tyranny of the alphabet a repression that many of us have experienced. [laughter] thereve also been published interviews with him in Journal Articles he has written. Despite these writings go krofts Global Vision has not been visible on the order of a George Cannon Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger or zbigniew brzezinski. This is where the publication of his memoirs fell since i understand focusing on his philosophy and worldview. Prince go kroft has worked behind the scenes within small groups oneonone in closed meetings. Of particular significance has been scowcrofts relationship to the former National Security adviser secretary of state kissinger with whom he worked closely after the election once ford took office. The two collaborated on all policy decisions between 1973 and 1977 at period in which this kissinger calls go kroft is quote full partner unquote yet because the partnership took place entirely behind doors its gone unnoticed to diplomatic historians and others on the National Security policy at the nixon ford administration. As Vice President fords tudor on Foreign Policy in the months before nixons resignation in the someone who is a general of United States general scowcroft became the most trusted Foreign Policy adviser. The Reagan Administration brought scowcroft to resolve the controversy to investigate the iran contra scandal. Advice on the latter issue was mostly unheeded. He later worked quietly with bush 43s is foreignpolicy team in their second term in office. Giving advice to the Obama White House especially early in the administration. With the british pound collapsing in 1976 secretary of state kissinger and simon stepped in and worked out an arrangement for concessions by britains Prime Minister callahans Labour Government for four billiondollar imf rescue package backed by the United States and supported by germany and france. A great deal of money at the time and the trick here was the panel is sinking and they had to keep negotiations secret away from the press so it didnt invoke a further run on the pound. Another was go krofts advice to president bush in 1989 that the United States and the soviet union both withdraw Ground Forces from central europe. The logic was that nato minus the u. S. Comparison to the warsaw pact and ussr would be to the United States is managed and take away from mikhail gorbachev. The idea provoked a firestorm especially for defense secretary cheney which was eventually a scaled back version of the plan. Rather than literally demand the wall be torn down and scowcroft and his staff wanted to create the underlying conditions that would make the berlin wall no longer necessary so it would fall up its own accord. More significantly Schoolcraft Bush and baker wanted to take the initiative away from gorbachev to think what they will want to go through and what they wanted to achieve them and to provide a set of carrots and sticks that would induce the soviets to a degree which often meant getting the u. K. France and germany to agree. A third example was the decision on the Scowcroft Commission later under bush 41 to push through radical reductions in Nuclear Missiles and to reduce the number of mirth warheads and reconvert or download single warhead icbms. As go kroft prevailed that murph rockets with up to 10 warheads were more attractive as targets and more attractive as weapons they could use in contrast to single warhead icbms. In fact this was some of the logic they used and start to. His call for prudence with respect to attacking iraq his willingness to support the troop surge after 2007. So what does scowcroft exert so much so for years hes been one of the most admired elder statesman of washington. One is his ability to keep his eyes on the ball. United states longerterm interests military Political Economic weather in his capacity as an air force colonel military assistant to the president as deputy of mass security adviser for National Security adviser proper. He had ability to look down the road without the ability to see the moving parts to anticipate other vehicles upcoming curves and obstructions ahead. As a student of World History and International Relations as a graduate of the National War College and is a professor at west point in the air force academy he has been able to analyze the forces at play to get a feel for their tendencies and trajectories and to gauge their possible effects and a skilled chessplayer scowcroft has been good as seeing the pieces on the board and figure out how the opposing players might respond to these were characteristics honed after the tutelage of air force major richard bingen one of the developers of the single integrated Operations Plan siop and well in the pentagon he helps scowcroft learn how the government operated with Research Communities with industry and the scientific communities and other actors. Later working with Kissinger Scowcroft honed his sense of International System and became more comfortable working with the press. All the same a strategist has to be relevant. One can be a superb strategist is a military consultant or analyst at Current Events but if he or she is on the sidelines and his or her ideas are ignored that person cant be considered a strategist. He is renowned for his article in foreign affairs. After his whitehot burst of influence policymakers ignored him for the next five decades. Neither do we think of a strategist over the later period. Another aspect of his strategy is operationally its hard to think of any other policymaker in recent times has been as consistently influential and well respected for his judgment and expertise. I was one slide behind. Excuse me. This trust has distinct roots. One is scowcroft ability to speak credibly to several distinct parties thanks to his range of expertise and experience in International Relations Nuclear Weapons and military affairs and intelligence and economics. Furthermore not only can scowcroft speak on separate issues he is also able to consider how they intersect and interact. Another is his drive coupled with his ability. One, his superior officers made was his ability to keep growing with no discernible upper ceiling. He would have clearly received a fourstar as Alexander Hague and colin powell had he not retired from air force and became National Security adviser in november of 1975. Third is his cordial and respectful personality. Another frequent comment was how easy u. S. To work with. He impresses his bosses not only with this initiative to go the extra mile but his ability to be a Team Player Even if the ultimate decision goes his own way. He has strong views was willing to be persuaded by new evidence and strong argument and he listens. As one Bush Administration colleague put its scowcroft doesnt want anything. He can be very serious reserved and compartmentalized. He is also affable and used to play pranks on his colleagues. He was not above making offcolor jokes. He got along well with others and had a good sense of how Association Reporters academics military officers foreign leaders or young people. Some implications of the subtitle Brent Scowcroft and the call of National Security. It feels odd to be writing about the life of someone who participates in politics and runs his own business. He was in saudi arabia for king abduls funeral. Other prominent political figures who are still very much with us so the question becomes becomes here i can unequivocally say yes. For the first part of my subtitle the name Brent Scowcroft. As a buyer for wanted to examine the Brent Scowcroft roots. This restricts lineages and back on as member by wellestablished family. Joe pingree Brent Scowcrofts greatgrandfather was one of the captains of the tract part of omaha and another Richard Ballantine was a captain of a Mormon Company missionary in india and the founder of the mormon sunday schools. Both em pingree were polygamists. A third greatgrandfather John Scowcroft arrived later by train and founded a Successful Company of food and dry goods wholesale merchants helped by the fact that a notch of poor for rail rail traffic throughout the west where freight trains had to change engines and passengers had to switch from Union Pacific to Central Pacific trains or vice versa traveling east to west. You cant go anywhere without coming to ogden town leaders posted. During prohibition al capone said ogden was too rough for him in. Scowcrofts father managed the Family Business and he was close to his father and mother by all accounts happy and active childhood the youngest of three children and the only son. With his sisters being four in seven years so but he was some ways an only child. Acknowledging you never heard his parents fighting he commented the experience growing up gave him a distorted view of his fellow humans. What do these pleasant stories and nice family photos have to do is scowcroft is an air force officer Business Consultant and senior statesman . What they convey is how secure scowcroft was growing up, secure material, secure socially insecure psychologically. He had no status anxiety in other words and i wasnt because of a sense of deprivation or other contrarian things that motivated him to leave ogden for west point and join the army air corps. This very sense of security would make a surprise attack on pearl harbor and travails of the u. S. Military Academy Following the near fatal crash of his north american aviation mustang at the age of 24 that much more searing. Then barely a month after the crash he received word that his father died of a heart attack at the age of 57. Lying in a hospital bed he decided he didnt want to be in a Family Business that wants to study and be in a position to influence National Security policy. The fact that the strategist has a further implication. Biography is as one political scientist rights provides no consensual grammar for the selection organization and presentation of data. This makes it tough to study someone that didnt write things down it does not boasted achievements and records are partially available. I read the many histories and inside accounts of u. S. National Security Policy individual president s president ial demonstrations and researched journalism on people issues regions and countries. In order to bring perspective to the documents and the scholarly analyses i conducted for interviews with the general and more than 100 interviews with his colleagues and associates friends and relatives. To an extent biographies and exercise imagination as John Lewis Gaddis comments. It is being in someone elses world. Fully capturing that vision is a fools errand to be sure but just as surely as possibly he is accurate and thorough as possible and to be fair. Being fair means not just selecting the positive that some biographies to order the negative as other biographers do but describing and interpreting the subjects thoughts and actions as well as one can and mentoring them in light of his or her political circumstances. The final portion of the subtitle the call of National Security workers to scowcrofts location is called to military service whenever some two to 12 he read a brandnew book west point today and he decided he wants to go to west point. He would serve as commandant of the Ogden High School rotc attend u. S. Military Academy Prep School at Lafayette College pennsylvania and then go to west point and come back and teach five years later and served as Department Chair of the air force academy. The sense of location scary coast scowcroft through a horrible thing chris and the painful death of his father so he would dedicate himself to the air force the white house and several president s and their demonstrations demonstrations up as well as two other purposes such as studying and writing president ial commissions and working with the Aspen Strategy Group the council on Foreign Relations and other bodies. He has to dedicate himself to caring for his wife who had type ii diabetes. Thats in large part because of his care taking her to the hospital and coming back to work at 6 00 the next morning. It was because he would fall asleep that bush 41 was not the least annoyed when he would doze off only to wake up and recover some nothing at happen which was the origin of the scowcroft report. Other objectives to which he dedicated himself were serving as the presence of personal emissary to the soviet union China Saudi Arabia germany france and Great Britain for the discussion of particularly sensitive issues being an honest broker of National Security adviser working as a Business Consultant from 1977 until 1988 and from 1994 to the present and agreeing to serve as chair or cochair of blueribbon commissions and study groups. So what important elements are not implicated in the books title and subtitle . One is perhaps a momentous history of which scowcroft was a part. He played a key role in many of the chief opponents in u. S. National Security Policy the last 40 years. 22 of the 31 chapters devoted to scowcrofts actions in the white house source adviser to president S Ronald Reagan and george w. Bush. For these chapters i had to decision rules rules. One was to focus on a few principle events such as the u. S. Evacuation of saigon the development of u. S. China relations the tower boards investigation of irancontra scandal the limitation of the 1981 gulf war and the decision to attack iraq in 2003 where many of his former colleagues and allies were working for george w. Bush. I want to focus on scowcrofts role in less wellknown way such as the reform of the Intelligence Community after disclosure of the cias family family 1974. In 1976 korean treaty and cynthias government imf rescue of the collapsing found in the 70s. Departing from the example set by mentor and friend which in a sense you want to follow and how scowcrofts role in pioneering the development of highranking government officials turning to Business Consulting after serving in office niches that didnt effectively exist in the 70s. The other decision role for these chapters was to be as definitive as possible given the archival records now available even if some have not been released new scholarship by journalists and historians political scientist and the ability to interview many participants in these events. Son of my interviewees have already passed. Here wants to convince the issues into short chapters. Most of the topics have been the subject of many books and articles and. Scowcroft on role by using archival Data Consulting secondary sources and through interviews. Among the topics on which they perspective so the evacuation of vietnam in april 75 to scowcroft as chair of the present commission on Strategic Forces that is the Scowcroft Commission. By the way in the middle of this president present reagan announces his support for sti. That wasnt debris the brief for this mission. The reasons behind the pause in u. S. Soviet relations after bush took office in what happened in months leading up to and after tiananmen squared the rise and fall of the new world order phrase used by the bush demonstrations in the leadup to the 1991 persian gulf war and the other topics as well. The title also obscures misjudgments and mistakes such as mishandling of the panama coup attempt at october 3, 1989 were scowcroft admitted they were keystone cops. The relative neglect of afghanistanpakistan at the soviets pulled out with disastrous longerterm consequences. Scowcroft also voiced regret for have it administration handled the demise of yugoslavia and had not been more proactive. Finally the book title does not give a full sense of scowcrofts internationalism. He accepts the world as it is and believes the United States should work with existing powers whether the soviet union and the peoples republic of china arafat and the plo or iran in pursuit of common goals for the promotion of international stability. So how does a study of scowcrofts life inform us that president . A study of his career and the implicit comparison that makes with other National Security advisers and other president ial demonstrations reveal several things we wanted the importance of personnel and interpersonal chemistry in the white house. Both between the president and his National Security adviser and among the foreignpolicy principles. Scowcroft learned from a difficult nixon years in the irancontra and several things became apparent from his experiences. A 2nd lesson from the study of still cross career is is indirect approach. Undermine a pause so the problems itself dissipate to make Nuclear Warfare unattractive to make the berlin wall no longer necessary. The same principle would appear to apply to terrorism there is a place for addressing the conditions that make a particular view of islam a viable option. People have multiple loyalties, attachments, and what kind of religion is different. People are neighbors naturals, seek employment, members of societys. And it seems that the society that hosts terrorists when it becomes less hostile this is probably the best way to remove terrorism. In my lifetime i did not think i would see the end of apartheid or the soviet union, but shifting politics, diplomacy, knew Public Policies and vocal leadership made them irrelevant. I suspect that lessons can be learned. A 3rd lesson concerning secrecy and accountability. When i asked gen. Scowcroft about Edward Snowdens leaks he said he would move against the revelations with every fiber of his body which is what i expected considering his longtime support of intelligence. He he surprised me by remarking that snowdens leaks might have a cellular tory impact on getting to a constructive debate of our members of Congress Congress the press and the public about legislative Oversight Committee operations of the Us Government and accountability. Scowcroft believes in the United States. Recent erosion of american belief in the government. A recipe for service cynicism but a reduction of legitimacy if there can be plausible claims of the United States being a a leader of the free world the city on the hill the shining. Of light. The subtext the subtext is the United States faces a real crisis in government record low Approval Ratings the turnout of eligible voters in the 2014 the term elections the lowest and 72 years. There is a feeling that the wars in the middle east and afghanistan as frightening as al qaeda and isis maybe are limitless. Over half of americans disapprove of president obamas foreignpolicy. A moral dilemma that was clear during the cold war and arguably to the end of the soviet union and the 1st gulf war that is now missing. A declining us soft power. This begs the question that an american grand strategy may not the place the containment of the soviet union. What is the United States for . Just against terrorism, extremism, isis or some other group . What hope does the United States offer the rest of the world . I we will leave you with those questions. Thank you. [applause] we now have a healthy bit of time for questions and discussions. We would ask you to wait for the microphone before you begin to speak and when you do if you would identify yourself to the group. We will start right back here. Thank you for that presentation. I was wondering, i was wondering, you sort of in my mind left a gap between when his plane crash in world war ii and when he took up as an officer in the pentagon and so on. Did he have any other active military experience . He had a whole career. He could have gone to fourstar. He left. He was put up for his 1st start when he was leaving the pentagon and invited to become natos military assistant to oversee and handle the military authorization of the white house which includes transportation, medicine carpool all the logistics president s detail. Before that he worked in the pentagon for a number of years. He went to the National War College. He taught at west point and the air force academy. He served in yugoslavia for two years as an attache attache, and intelligence post and also as an air officer. He worked there. So he had a bunch of different positions. In fact, i talk about his multilocality earlier, and i think it is one of the things that helped his experience and repertoire of skills. Like a Large Company he being cycled around. And the air force was young enough a growing enough. He went to west point. The air force was an establishment. He benefited from the fact that he was one person at the Wilson Center said, he had 40pound cranium and the air force was young and willing to tolerate someone who saw his talent and brilliance and let him write his own ticket in a way that is hard to imagine now. The reason i made that predicate is i wanted to no whether he gave you an indication of how his exposure to actual combat situation shaped his own thinking . One of the anomalies about him is he never had any command experience outside of academic duties and military attache duties. He never was in korea, vietnam, thailand, west germany. Never even commanded a missile basil air force base here. That also made him quite distinct. In the back right here. Thank you. Bob hathaway here at the center. You obviously have a lot of access to scowcroft. Can you tell us a bit about a bit about the kind of relationship that you developed with the . To what extent do you think he was forthcoming . What did he not want to talk about . How much, if at all, did you did you have access to his personal papers . Can you give us a sense of how over overtime your relationship with your subject developed . Yeah, that is actually a nice question. As i write in the preface it started out with he was a little bit suspicious of me and heard of me. Me. Before i visited with him he had a copy of my cv. I prepared a short talk about why it was necessary his life be recorded and written and argued argue that i can do this, and he agreed. The relationship developed where i think there was a cordial and respectful tone throughout. Now how forthcoming was seat, he was very generous. He not only allow me to interview him about once a month, but he would give me other names. Sometimes i would ask him to make the entree, for example to talk to bush 41 or Henry Kissinger or book checked bush dick cheney. No doubt people were checking with him 1st before agreeing to talk to me. Having said that, for the most part he was quite forthcoming. There were things that he said he forgot. There were things that he did not remember. There were things on occasion where he would say i cant talk about that and thinks he did not want to talk about, whereas Current Business for obvious reasons as National Security advisor he is also overseeing the community that plans and commissions covert actions. These things he did not talk about. Other times i would come back to issues when he did not want to talk about something. Some things i asked him repeatedly. Always guarded always guarded and protective, and that is consistent with him being very discreet very behind the scenes. He was the opposite of discursive. Having said that, i kind of tried to get as much out of him as i could. I could. When i came back with questions from what other people said or if there was a discrepancy for my understanding of the interviews i would i would say look i dont understand this or what is going on here. It was kind of this cumulative process really of trying to get more out of him. I think as someone who is used to working on sensitive issues you show me what you know and i we will tell you how i can help you. I kind of had to know enough. Occasionally he would volunteer things. More of. More, of course, but his childhood or early years and later. We had a friendly relationship, Good Relationship, but the fact i was of a generation younger than he is, in some ways maybe that helped me but in some ways it wasnt i remember reading an interview he did at west point for an oral history collection, furious because there were things he told this guy that he did not told me. It also his energy and how he was feeling would vary. Sometimes he would be tired and not feeling well. Different ailments over the course of about five years that i interviewed him. Sometimes sometimes he would be more energetic upbeat, and cooperative. So it was a relationship i have a friend just finishing a biography of Robert Mcnamara and they have this antagonistic relationship. It was kind of he would insult my friend and say all sorts of things that was in the open and roughandtumble. And katie was the opposite very genteel and reserved. Back here. My name is stephen shore. Was scowcroft ever considered for secretary of state . Did he ever have any interest in a position . Yes. No. Yes about your question. He was not interested in secretary of state. State. He thought he wanted to be secretary of defense under bush 41 because he had been, i think, very the 1st announcement, i think, that butch bush made was james baker about secretary of state because they had gone back 30 years and been by his side when his 1st wife died and been old can old tennis partners so they had a long relationship. So that was not really on the table. He was thinking about secretary of defense but then bush and baker persuaded him that National Security adviser would advisor would be more important and he would have equal status in terms of in as c or other white house discussions. Even though he had done it before it did not hold much appeal to him and then he thought maybe it would be good and realized it gave him more power and influence. He and bush were just so so close a few months apart in age and both been pilot starring the mid 40s and from the same kind of background. Thank you. I teach history for the air force institute of technology. You mentioned an officer in the pentagon, somewhat of a legend in in his own right though not too well known. Im curious did it curious did it come into your discussion at all . He was the head of the air force academy. Jealous, i must say, the influence they had. The fact is, he came from the military academy. What kind of influence was theyre . I did not find much direct influence. Influence. He was at west point when scowcroft was there after he got his graduate degree from columbia. He would commute. And then later on it was because he was going to go to harvard to do graduate work that they asked scowcroft to come in and 1st serve as deputy chair and then department had at the Political Science department at Colorado Springs he was he was there. They got along well and i think they were friendly. He later left to head up which university . Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, yeah. He is mentioned. I did i did not find a particularly strong relationship but it is certainly there. I would like to ask a question, a question, if i could, but the writing of a biography. I think the challenges of writing a biography of someone who is living poses challenges that you dont have when the subject is not in that they can reflect upon what you are doing and comment on it along the way. You are also able to ask followup questions. One job of a biographer is to safely speak to the historical record and to provide an account that is accurate, useful for readers but often times biographers reflect more broadly on the visions character contributions of their characters that they are writing about and here i sense i sense that this is very much an admiring biography. I am wondering if you could offer us a good example in the book, if there is, of where you step back and raise questions about either the judgment, the conclusions or the strategies that this strategist for forward. I certainly have some differences with scowcroft and some are in the book. I certainly do like and respect him. So that was nice. I gave some examples when i talk about the misjudgments about yugoslavia. He thought he and eagleburger had been theyre lawrence of macedonia was his name. I think they thought they knew more about yugoslavia than the folks in the state department and intelligence. I think they looked kind of at the evidence of milosevic and what was going to happen , and these brewing nationalist, separatists and they did not respond well to that. That. I also spent a half chapter on afghanistan and how the blowback from afghanistan is in many ways the root of terrorism and al qaeda. So i talk about how they after the billions of dollars and years from brzezinski and carter to the Reagan Administration to support the majority to supply them with weapons and aid and supply pakistan which was funneling to the different rebel groups that once the soviets lead they kind of come afghanistan is in ruins shelled by refugees so it is kind of bywater now. So that is an example. Another is i think they mishandled alexander. This is too political. One of the things where i think scowcroft gets criticized for his caution that he is to guarded horses the downside and not the upside enough. There is something to this but he is also a very nuanced and analytic and smart person. Most people want something a little more you more you no quicker, quicker, uplifting something shorter, a song to sing, as it were. He wasnt he wasnt he and baker and bush were not good at this. Tear down this wall or axis of evil or these nice messages nice messages, these messages, but the easy way to get a handle on this world that was happening. And i spend a good bit bit of time talking about this. When they cold war ended he was a little lost. That was his whole life. He life. He was a young teenager when pearl harbor happened. Years later you have the cold war and how this defined his career. If they were not reelected if they were reelected im not sure what wouldve happened. A quick followup, do you know how scowcroft response to the book itself where the criticisms you raise with regard to yugoslavia or afghanistan . In your discussions or debates, was their push back . Does he come to share your view that these were not the best moments . Does he stick to his earlier views . Vietnam, he sticks partly to his view that congress cost of war which is kind of, i think, taking the symptom for the cause. For the most part i would present them with information or a question about something and he conceded on yugoslavia, the panama to the end of the cold war come on yugoslavia that they kind of mishandled stuff. He is very candid and upfront about it. Dane kennedy from the National History center. For someone who is such an inside player and personally so discreet the oped that scowcroft wrote about a rack that you mentioned at the beginning of your talk was sort of startling i think, for a lot of people. And i was wondering if you could say a little bit more about that how that how his view of the issue fit into his larger Strategic Vision and also what kind of impact that oped had on his subsequent relationship with people who he was very close with before that. I think it is a pivotal event. In some ways as i begin the book it is contrary to his personality about being behind the scenes. We know that he is very close to 41. I mentioned i mentioned about his colleagues and friends working under 43. Why would he do this . This was actually he had been on television twice expressing the same perspectives and had written other opeds for the Washington Post after nine 11 in october and early october 2001 2001 and early 2002. His position was well known by the white house. The reason he wrote it and writes these opeds he has written about a hundred over the course of his career he thinks there is a voice missing. If if he thinks there is a debate that is ms. A debate that is incomplete or options that need to be explored or incomplete then he will a and. Usually he does not have to do that. Usually he has enough contacts or they are covering the issues already. He will only way and if he feels it is called for. Quality for. Quality control is aware that he uses for what he is doing. The effect it has had is it has made him hated by the Republican Administration and the persona non grata. He did not say this exactly. It was very awkward. How it came about was he spent some time on this because it is interesting. People say interesting. People say, this is George Hw Bush who put scowcroft up to that. That is not the case. Case. They were in close contact knew each others mind but it was scowcroft who give an appearance on meet the press, i think it was, with bob schieffer. His colleague and partner in the Scowcroft Group saw this and said said that is pretty good, you should write it up. He wrote it up and sent it to the wall street journal they said they would run it. They faxed a copy to secretary rice and then it ran. He got on the phone with him and you let him. She had taken to the woodshed and denied knowing about his position, which was not the case. And so it made things difficult. What was interesting you later on supported the surge although he opposed the war. In this situation we cant withdraw, so we need more troops. When gates came in after the 2006 elections he worked very closely with gates. You have this guy who has been rejected ands current but despite that he stays pretty unflappable and works with the administration in subsequent years. So it may just suggest how security was. He does not read his own press. A friend of it to have a friend of his read it and said he liked it. He does not read his own press. He has this military discipline. Does his expose that deeper rupture within republican circles. Opposition early on and then sort of the cows back in is that a reflection of the conservative influence later on . Could you flesh out where the different groups within the republican foreignpolicy live in this . He calls himself a rhino now, a republican in name only. Even though he was closer to carry or obama on foreignpolicy, he supported the republicans, at least nominally because he felt he had to. He would not endorse mccain in 2008 because of so many of his advisers or neocons again, he has this combination of dove and talk he believes in a Strong Defense and having clear sanctions and use of military force and intelligence, covert actions things like this. At the same time he believes end of he believes in dialogue whether with the plo or it ran or formerly red china. He believes in negotiation. An International System is better by people in forces talking and having conversations and talking to each other rather than because they have to litigate which is what they found out with the soviet union and china. We we all have these weapons and have to find a way to coexist. You you cant coexist without talking to people and staying in touch. Back your against the wall. Wait. One moment until one moment until the microphone gets to you. Thanks. John lewis biography of came kevin went deeply into his character and personality and interconnected it with his political and other activities. What is the deepest insight into scowcroft that you can connect with his you no his contribution to american Foreign Policy and american politics . He said to me this gets to his sort of dedication to national may be the duty, honor, country from west point but his dedication to the United States his kind of patriotism combined with his discipline. He told me once he says there is no reason to ever be selfish. I said, whatever when you get sick. He said well, okay. But to think that he is a lot in terms of Foreign Policy and National Security. It consumes him and what he enjoys thinking about and talking about in half hours with deputy gates it really is this how he is i think, quite exceptional in that regard and really an extreme case, case, if you we will, in terms of Political Science terms or social science terms, he is not representative of most people. This background where he does not seek the thrill, although he has done very well. He does not he does not need to be a social player like kissinger is. He is happy to or completely dedicated on the United States and a believer in a way that a way that maybe is a little oldfashioned but is kind of consistent with growing up in our dent in utah and having this community that came from all over western europe and all over the United States and this area to have a committee of believers and reach a degree of material success. Concur visio concur of his ego. James winston from the state department. I enjoy reading this wonderful book. I had i had a question about the relationship between bush and baker and bush and scowcroft and the three of them together. There was there was a line that caught my interest on page 493. You say during the 93 campaign that scowcroft is the one who asks baker to come back to run the campaign. You say bush could not ask his friend directly. He would then be conceding he needed his help. I find that weird. Obviously it just seems like a weird thing to me. It also gets back at, we get into 89 suddenly and scowcroft is the best friend of bush, baker is the best friend of bush there are other very competitive people in this administration and it does seem to work 89 92 previous still deletions the tension between these different principles that can cause huge problems and i wonder i mean how do you think what is the relationship between scowcroft, baker and bush . Are we remembering it as maybe a more rosy situation overtime . I wonder if that came out in talking with scowcroft and others. I think it is a complex relationship. Why bush would ask scowcroft to ask baker about him coming to the state department to help the campaign they are intensely competitive. Baker always thought he would be a better president and could do better. Bush would joe back at him, well if you are so smart why argue president rivalries, tennis both kind of these exuberant texans. But baker was he is always very, you no ambitious, immensely immensely capable very charismatic, in no way probably more so in some ways than anyone in the administration scowcroft was completely different. He did not care if you look rumpled or how we came across. He would never again to leak anything or speak to the pres. s mind. President s mind. They were both best friends with the president but with very different bases for their relationship. The subordinate officer helping out his principal or superior to undertake some task and to undertake the task has well as one could would be to take their own project in mind and wrestle to figure out this is what you need to do but because you are working for your principal. There is a selflessness, lack of ego that was missing with baker. They are both best friends but different kinds of best friends. As interesting scowcroft wrote im going to go back to the book title. Sorry. Sorry. He wrote the book with scowcroft, not with baker not with brady not with quayle. [laughter] and scowcroft was the only one of his friends who would buy a condo or move up to be around with former president bush at walker. There was a real several people talk about how they just adored each other complementing each other in a way that baker and bush complement each other in other ways. [inaudible question] when bush was head of the Republican Committee before he was ambassador to the un and they get to know each other at meetings and worked closely. Bush was liaison to china. This is an 1975. He was of course kissingers deputy. But from september of 73 on when kissinger becomes secretary of state scowcroft is defective National Security advisor, and he is differential to and kissinger was still off leading foreignpolicy in terms of making the government run and figuring out what she policies would exactly be taken, this was typically scowcroft. There was a partnership. Right up here, left side of the table. Larry altman at the Wilson Center. I believe you said that scowcroft was in the Nixon Administration head of the military operations including the medical office did did he have anything to say about nixons health or drinking . He did say that nixon was not a heavy drinker but when he drank it affected him a lot. He would tell stories about when he would get more depressed and reclusive as watergate worsened and that he was sort of pull up by himself and maybe invite kissinger. Late at night he would give scowcroft bizarre orders that scowcroft would ignore. And so there was a little bit. Again very discreet, protective. For the most part he got along well with nixon and saw side we dont see. I talk in the book a bit about how there was a doctor jekyll side to next but it was when he was not feeling threatened or insecure. Most situations made him feel threatened or insecure but there were occasions when he wasnt. There are other stories that he would order nuking sending out the nukes, and the defense secretary said he would not take the calls and he would take them the next morning. I think page and kissinger put out the word in the last month the military was not to take orders from the president. Yes. Another question did you his comments about cheney being a different person. Did you get into his theories as to why he changed personality . I talk about that a little bit. I dont know the exact reason. I am convinced that it is not that it was not just cheneys conservatism because he has always been a conservative and a believer of strong executive power and president ial discretion. I think it may have been something like, perhaps a federal judge or Supreme Court justice when in power. Corruption of power. On the other hand not on the other hand but another theory and i think this is possible. We know that heart surgery and heart of tax can affect peoples personality. This is this is a medical fact. I think there is a name for it. It is possible he was a a slightly different person as after some of these incidents them beforehand. What happened and what prompted this discussion were two things. Things. One was when he was doing intelligence review just before nine 11 and continued on afterward making recommendations to cheney and cheney dismisses him out of hand and not being intellectually honest and practical in a way he was has defense secretary not as he was as minority leader he was trained to be a phd, a phd, does not get his dr. Doctorate. Always a straight shooter quiet to himself. Scowcroft found how he handled this intelligence, not doing very well over the clinton years with morale that was one incident. Otherwise just kind of a lead up to the gulf war and how that was being handled. Information about nigeria, yellowcake, wmds and so forth. He was spending and cooking and looking like a a bad lawyer trying to get whatever facts he could to make his case. This was unlike his earlier behavior and i dont know exactly what the explanation is but it was not his conservatism or decision to act but his character and personality as a decisionmaker that have changed. One followup, the proximate cause was a comment by princeton academic cheney goes mouthing the sentiments sure, sometimes you want to use force and make sure people no there are serious consequences to actions. But to think but to think this is a policy prescription and that cheney was repeating he seems to be racist and unhelpful. Sam wells here at the center. Going back to your comment that you made about the end of the cold war and general scowcroft not feeling comfortable with the new world and its disorder. Could you talk a little bit about what you learned about his feelings toward europe . In a number of conversations i had with him in the 80s with the europeans were pushing for greater unification they were working on a monstrous treaty, a monstrous treaty, starting to set up a European Defense organization he was absolutely opposed to all of that. It was nato had to be our principal instrument for dealing with europe deal with countries individually and not with the eu etc. That would seem to be an attitude from the cold war that carried over and did not change. I think that is exactly right. When i. When i looked into why it was german reunification under nato so critical and we should not collect call it german reunification. We should College German reunification under nato. When i read it in all candor, nato rather than having a separate western European Union were Franco German Alliance Nato allow the United States to have dominant influence. This is what they wanted. Arguably you could say this was covered is for nafta and knowing that germany would be unified fear of a european trade group. So i. So i think and he also said this in other ways. He saw europe having shared philosophical and Cultural Roots cents the 17th since the 17th century and said he thought that they were in some ways kind of the i i think the United States is a natural leader of the world. Europe would be a partner in this necessary partner. Nato gave the United States room to have a dominant influence. Other side of the table up here. Up here. Do you discuss, did he talk about the nsc system as he ran it as National Security advisor and in particular in the views of the people that work for him one was rather unhappy with him later. I just wonder about that part of it. Im sorry i missed of the. Does he talk about it . Do you discuss how he ran that . Then in particular any views. Of the people who worked for him on staff. Their views of him or vice versa . Yes a large part of the book and one of the things i ask myself is why would a political scientist be writing a biography. Going from the general to the particular. One of the things that i realize is that this gave me a handle on issues i was interested in exploring how do we juggle the state department, treasury intelligence agencies white house, political motives, media relations, economics all the things that factor into National Security and how it can vary dramatically between administrations. Someone who spanned several administrations. I talk a lot about the system and what he learned. When he comes in and takes over from nixon and quickly changes things. He improves morale on staff. He starts having regular meetings. You can get a lot more out of people if you are nice to them rather than yelling at them all the time. More willing to put in long hours and do the work that is needed. A certain style for management which meant delegating and using mortality could. A lot of academics, policy people some people from the state department and other agencies. And he was kind of a mentor to gates a mentor to rice, of course a mentor to happily and a bunch of others. In in some ways there is a continuation of kissinger to scowcroft and a lot of subsequent talk top officials. Im not sure if that answers your question but he is very attentive to this. One of the one of the things a National Security advisor is able to do is figure out how are we going to make decisions and that what level and how will it work. Some would say the Current Administration is micromanaging. They are doing too much of the actual substance. They had a lean staff. This, robbery and general trust despite competition between baker and scowcroft. They were suspicious over the plans about reunification of germany and the cold war. Despite that they were able to work and have this organization and include and work directly with different agencies. If you dont do that the defense or state department are disaffected. Something that was very important. A number of historians at the end of the cold war are critical of the pause the long review of bush one trying to figure out how to approach all of that what is going on in europe. Is is scowcroft key to that . Are you able to eliminate why it lasted so long . He is a big part of it. Like many administrations they are intent on distinguishing themselves from their predecessors. More than that more importantly they thought that the meetings in reykjavik and this new detente that gorbachev and reagan seemed to be having they thought it was going down the wrong direction. They were they were not sure what the endgame was and were worried that the seemingly have this better relation. Gorbachevs saying right things, but at the same time the soviet union was supporting afghanistan supporting cuba el salvador, angola cambodia lots of places around the world having denounced the revolution to overthrow capitalism had not done anything to reform its economy. Yes, there was talk of perestroika. So you think about very little to nothing have been done about the conventional nuclear forces. You think about the cold war ideology, nuclear forces, none of this had changed. When they came to office they realized that with hungry and poland what was going on in some ways this was a credit to the Reagan Administration. They realized that they had not done anything about the things that they really cared about, which is about the possibility of Nuclear Warfare and having new kinds of regimes in Eastern Europe and the soviet union. They developed a series of what ended up being six different talks one in College Station a couple in the boston area, one in germany talks that laid out the steps they wanted to take and decided that they wanted to meet and have a summit with gorbachev only when they are ready and kind of had a vision in place. He speaks about how he wants to reform soviet society and he believes in democracy and does not believe does not want not going to have a tiananmen solution to protest. How then do we actually affect these in ways that matter and do it in a way that does not provoke a a crackdown against gorbachev and his advisors in the soviet union or provoke other kinds of conflict. Thats why it took a long time to work this out. Did you discuss anything about our alliance with japan and relationship with china . I spent about three chapters on china. For the 1st time the administration visits china before europe because of hero heaters funeral in february 1989. As for japan he does not have because the usjapan relationship was so established he said it was one of if not the most difficult relationship in terms of understanding the japanese and their worldviews and views of hierarchy and democracy and so forth but he said it was a very Good Relationship and what mattered for him was the strategic side and cooperating of intelligence and Nuclear Weapons. He was not concerned really at all about the threat of being taken over or the value of real estate for all of the things, kind of the japan scare that you may remember in the late 80s and early 90s. He saw the security thing as the most important. The other issues were so developed that it went to lower levels of the state department. He did he did not spend a lot of time handling japan. In terms in terms of china, we talked a good deal about china. Huge outrage on college campuses. Many of you probably no that remember in washington, around the country in congress about what had gone on and how the administration was reacting. Their view was we cannot record is relationship that we have to keep going. They really went the extra mile to not alienate china. Later on they were able to use that relationship to have china not to veto some of the un resolutions for the war against iraq. Also they are aware china, aware that they were very i think he viewed democracy and reform in china as an indirect product to say that they thought that if there is Economic Growth and more with that and more openness and globalization more involved chinese economy that political reform will come. He thought for the United States or other countries to be more exhorted terry, to be more you know otherwise more to be louder on these issues would be counterproductive. They are aware that there is a huge market there. An element that it could lose to japan and europe. Europe. Mixed motives. It did not want a cultural revolution, a bamboo curtain they were concerned about how things can go south if they did not keep things open to china and realize that china had historical reason to resent the rest of the United States. The picture that emerges in your talk is of a man a man who is patriotic, hardworking, disciplined, efficient, and decent. You also used a phrase moral clarity of the cold war. It was in this time that scowcroft thrive the most. The notion of the moral clarity of the cold war one could question. Maybe at 40,000 feet it looks clear. If you if you are in the weeds it looks a little murkier. The the family jewels in the mid 70s, the Church Committee hearings. Fastforward to the 1980s the irancontra situation. If you if you look at the cold war in Central America and africa, the human debris is massive. Where does he stand on these issues or how does he reflect . Is this just so much Collateral Damage right and wrong . Does he have thoughts about these things . If so what is his take . In that sense he really is kind of if need be he was prepared to be ruthless. He signs off and supports vietnam. A lot of things. The priority of the us soviet rivalry but also awareness of the limits of american power. A very cautious and careful about where the United States intervenes and ask. Inclined inclined to be a little more he would act on occasion. He is kind of modest. That is where he differs with the neoconservatives are some of the people now clamoring for the United States to have troops on the ground and so forth. Up here. From the National History center. You have talked a lot about his admirable personal qualities. One way to gauge his effectiveness as a statesman is to ask whether or not he is able to be implemented as overall model and encouraging other people to be like to listen to reevaluate and so on. I wonder has he been able to encourage behaviors or in the committee more generally . I think i think to the extent would happily and gates for sure. Also he has been very active and programs with students and interns at his own firm but especially at the Atlantic Council and the Aspen Strategy Group. He has established fellowships at the scowcroft school of diplomacy i think it is called the bush school at a m. There is certainly that. What effect it has had is hard to know and i dont explore that. He feels fortunate to have lived the life he has and feels that he has to pass these down. He is intent on trying to nurture especially at the Aspen Strategy Group Atlantic Council and getting people and mentoring them. Most of these people are still fairly young maybe 40s tops with maybe the exception of the hadleys and gates is but there is some of that absolutely. This is our last question in the back against the wall. You talked a little bit about how he thought were the conditions that he thought extremism and terrorism sort of come about i forget the word. Could you talk a little bit about his thoughts on extremism or how it comes about . I did not really talk to him about that. I really did not talk about the roots of that. I came to that in one of my concluding comments because of his belief in tackling these problems indirectly. Certainly i think he would see if there is some great problem out there he would want to have a multiple pronged effort and want to have force but also clear repercussions and deterrence but also want to find ways to have portable water and create jobs and do those things, to. A lot of these things we no our conflicts that get to conflicts over resources. They are just not about peoples and cultures. So that is kind of extrapolating a little bit. He would look holistically and realize that you have to make the population among whom extremists or terrorists are residing to make that less hospitable and less of a viable option. I unfortunately have to bring this to a close now but you can join us after for a conversation at a reception outside this room. The book is available for purchase and i suspect signing as well. I would invite you all to come back next week when Heather Cox Richardson of Boston College will be speaking on march 2 on her new book. My thanks to our audience and thanks to pay for for a very, very engaging talk. Thank you. [applause]