Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Real Custer 20141221

It is looking right now like the number may have to go a. When will it be available . The official publication date is december 30th. Well have the book printed and in our warehouse friday, three days from now. We will start shipping immediately. It may start popping up before the 30th in various independent bookstores, but it will be fully distributed around the country and available on the online retailers and brickandmortar retailers and independent stores on december 30th. Dennis johnson is the copublisher bought copublisher above a house located in brooklyn, new york. Heres the cover. The Second Intelligence Committee Report on torture. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Next, James Robbins counts the life of George Custer including his childhood in formative years as well as time in the field of battle from the civil war to his final defeat at the battle of little bit worn. This is about an hour and 15 minutes. [applause] thank you, glenn. I would also like to thank arlene and paulie and all the Hudson Library team. Its great being the sum of human audience. A wonderful busy here. Great to be back home in ohio. It is good to shake off inside the beltway every now and then. You know, washington, right . As we heard 80 miles south of here, arthur grant, sherman, one way or another ureter base here. As a friend from mississippi said, you have a lot of bloody from your state. [laughter] i guess it depends what side you are on. Last night but anyway. One question i get about my book, the real custer is why is that the title . Obliges this make you about the real custer . The easiest way to answer that question is to say that is what the publisher wanted. Okay, that is the title. But i think it is really better to view it not as a conclusion, like this is the real custer, but more like a question. Who was the real custer . What do we know . Little bit corn is so pervasive when you talk about George Custer. If the ad is the whole man, the mistakes he made on that day. That is not the case. He had a whole life in the whole carrot or any disabled person. The book is about trying to get to the root of that question here too was this man . If we can strip away all the things said then. All of the history, Everything Else and talk about the man himself. That is what it is supposed to be about. Little bit corn, the famous anheuserbusch advertisement that they commissioned that became most peoples view of what happened on that day. For example, one of the most asked about guys in american history, probably the most written about battle, this thing gettysburg here at gettysburg where custer also flawed and also played a key role. He has been lionized. Hes been. Hes been heralded. Hes been mocked. He has been mentioned in books, articles, and media of all stories, movies. This is a 1926 movie traumatizing that. Hes more famous today. Hes more mentioned today in books and he was at the height of his fame. He is more mentioned today in vaux than he ever was in history. You can look at the statistics. It keeps going up good pastor is immensely famous. Harder but we are going to talk about is what he is famous for. Here he is being portrayed as Ronald Reagan in the historically challenged film, santa fe trail. [laughter] were George Custer does a bunch of stuff that he never, ever did. [laughter] but it is a movie. Buddy while . Of course john brown is in this movie, talk about the great collection of john brown material. Heres aeros litmus custer and they died with their boots on. The most noted in terms of the 20th century, this is the image of christ are the people most associated with. Capturing both the seriousness, but also the boyishness and things like that, which will talk about. It became kind of a symbol of that. All of this is great about him. When him. When you race him. Would you rate someone to the level of being a superhero, it is pretty easy to then transfer them into being the super villain. In the 60s and 70s for that sort took hold in our culture rather than this custer from little ape man, we had Richard Mulligan playing him as this kind of psycho. A selfimportant, chaotic, cool random kind of guy who just made bad decisions all the time and wasnt aware of any of this. It became the real custer. He was a blowhard. He had no military ability whatsoever. He was an indian hater, genocidal maniac and things like this. I became a dominant image in the last 30 years or so, now we have representation like this from night at the new com of general custer and ben stiller. That is bill hater plain custard. In which he laments, i will always be famous for my biggest failure. In a way for people who like custer, this is progress because hes actually one of the good guys. He has this klutzy lovable loser, but at least hes one of the good guys in this movie. A little bit of a different faith. Along the way weve had comments. Weve had the action figure. Theres not a museum at the bottom. We have had custer the playset and innumerable books, articles on movies, tv, every medium possible talking about general custer. So whether he approves of that, i dont know. He is not amused. But why . Why George Custer . Why is he so famous quiet icy famous today than in his life . He is not famous for nothing. You can do that these days. This days you can be famous for nothing. Lots of people who are famous for nothing or the corollary to that is something in washington its full of famous people youve never heard of. But he wasnt just that he had long hair or wear hair or where he tied or with an eccentric or acting crazy. He was famous for everything. So we are going to talk about some of it. So lets take it back a few years. There he is. George custer at west point. Pester the goat. Cadet John Montgomery write to us at the wynn pastor was in his third year described him as an indifferent soldier, a poor student, a racer and reckless cadet always in trouble, always plain submission of a spring and liked by everyone. That was custer at west point. He said his career at west point is an example should be carefully avoided. By future cadets. He would go to its class. He was the last in his class and the title of my other book that is out there. What does that mean . Does that mean he was a dummy. There are actually two types of people in the bottom of a class at west point. This weekend night at the bottom. That is one type of a goat. The other guy who gets to west point and says i can handle this. And i congratulate you care about grades or class rank. So instead of studying, ill just have a good time to the extent that i cant and that the last minute i will cram in squeak through. He was from that type of cadet. Theres been many cadets like this. Another example speaking of people famous for blowing it. So he had spent his time going twopenny hastens tavern near by, sort of go enough posts highly illicit activity, going in the middle of the night to enjoy someone slips and have other escapades. He would try to get together with you and visiting debutantes and whoever might be around because at the time west point in the summer was a Tourist Destination and they had hotels on the pose, so naturally the cadets were investigating who might be checked in and custer was definitely amongst that group. Playing pranks into another phase and generally getting in trouble. This is what custer did. He had a talent for that. But i think what is more important for understanding custer as he had a talent for getting out of trouble. A lot of guys got in trouble and got expelled. But George Custer, who for whatever reason, charisma or just lucky, you would get out of the trouble he got into. Another thing was he never questioned the institution theirs purpose. When they caught him, fine, you caught me. I would take my punishment. If you break the rules you have to take your punishment. So he began racking up a lot of delinquencies. Here is an actual first page of his flank the record of deliverances and demerits that he earned. As he said, they worked extraordinary but just in their number. Last night not great offenses, but many of them. So he was able to somehow walk the fine line between having just enough time to get getting just enough trouble that he could still graduate and this went right up to the end of this west point career when he was courtmartialed the day before graduation. He went right up to the end. The thing about the goat of the people at the bottom of the class generally and also custer, you get a different type of officer at the bottom of the class. The top of the class guys, mcclellan, robert ely, by the book, very methodical thinkers. They know all of the theories of war. They apply them and so forth. The guys at the bottom tend to be a little more freespirited. They tend to be a little bit more outside of the box thinkers, a little bit more unorthodox because that is the kind of west point career they were pursuing and that certainly was true of custer. Another insight from this west point they is his bravery. Because when they caught him, they caught him and he was admitted. Cadet writes that his bravery in battle did not surprise anyone who had seen him walking up with calm deliberation to the head of the section room to face the abstract or is that the confession he knew something of the last thing. So he would walk up and take it. Thats the kind of guy he was. He couldve done better at the academy. He was at home. He had gone to the academy in monroe, michigan and performed very well there. He was actually a School Teacher before he went to west point. According to his brother, he was reading books all the time. Not the yucatan from west Point Library records, but nevertheless he read a lot of books. So he wasnt a dummy. He just wouldnt have been custer if you spend all his time studying and then getting courtmartialed and delayed in the war. But the civil war came and this was really the thing that made Custer Custer in my opinion. Its a terrible thing for west point because the band of brothers, the cadet or mevacor of cadets had to split between the northerners and southerners. Custer had a lot of friends on the Southern Side who also happened to be lower down on the class. But a lot of them were his friends. He had to go fight them. They still remain friends, but that was the way of us. The word became the perfect arena for him to display his talents. He rushed from west point to the battlefield faster than any graduate of the military academy in history. Within four days, he was delayed. He was busy being courtmartialed. This is in the summer of 1861 when they were getting a little bit hot. Within four days he went from west point to new york, ran into Northern Virginia. Got there in time to run with the rest from bull run back to arlington on the space of four days. With very little sleep. He realized quickly that what he would like to do this work is being paid to higher commanders. Philip kearney was the first person who plot and from a regular command and took msn eight. Pastor realized that in doing this, he had a lot of freedom of action, which is very important to him to do things that make things happen rather than being but they do that all the time. He would be the eyes and ears of his commander. He would also be at headquarters and things are going to happen. He could volunteer to get involved or in some cases he would go out and just get involved in staff because he knew that he could and no one wouldve checked because he was on some general staff. So if he shows up, they will say he was fair because the general sent him there and sometimes that is true. So that gave him flexibility to do things than that very much fit his style of doing things. This is a drawing of custer across in the checkout how many, which is part of the custer myth. If the story isnt true, just print the myth of voyager in the Peninsula Campaign for the union army was phased army was faith that the referent, which is extraordinarily difficult to cross, according to the story, mcclellan and his staff are going up and going up another river trying to find a word across. They didnt know what to do, how deep it was. They were arguing about it. Custer jumped in and said it is 50. Not exactly churn. That is the comical story. The actual story is a lot more dangerous because he did jump in the river. Macleod was a big chief of engineers was. Custer started to, to the observation and he did this several times. Not only that, but he led an assault across the river once he found a crossing point where they seized guns and prisoners could cause a lot of trouble before retreating. They were showing it could be done. This is what brought him to the attention of mcclellan who then took him and made him his aid so custer had a lot of freedom of action to do a lot of different days. The problem with that was if you attach yourself to a highranking general, you better hope the guy is successful because if he declines come you are likely to go with him and that his success would have been. George mcclellan was for the way lincoln wanted so he lost his command and custer lost his influence, which wasnt so good for him. Along the way shed been having a lot of interesting adventures. So then, he became the aid to general pleasanton shown here, which is very lucky for him. He didnt order at the time. Pleasanton had seen him around the time of the battle of nt to doing some great things, charging the battle is being generally heroic and said that kind of guy you want. Because pleasanton had the idea he wanted to reorganize the union county recorder. She didnt have the authority to do it. This is where luck comes in. Luckily for custer, lee invades pennsylvania. The Gettysburg Campaign is happening. Around that time, we invades general is on the outs with lincoln, will pleasanton is friends with me here the first guy he meets with when hes elevated to command his pleasanton and says hey, what do we need to do to stop generally . Pleasanton says that the thinking about that. We did to reorganize the caliber record and i want to elevate a bunch of young guys to be general so we can go after judge stuart and fight these guys. So pleasanton had custer of mine to be one of his guys. In fact, he raised three guys to general who were there is. There is custer. There was one farnsworth and wesley merritt. Custer was the youngest at 23. So that is how he got to be the boy general. Various circumstances happen. But they wanted these guys to be leading the caliber Rupert Graves has an offensive arms to go after judge sues rival calgary and fight them one on ones with the rebels have been fighting man. But they needed were people who could just charge into battle and get it done. He had seen merit and farnsworth and custer do this at various points, so those for his guys. So at 23 he is the youngest general officer, Brigadier General the history of the u. S. Army to that time. He was later superseded by caliche of pennypacker. Great name of the 97 and living a. 20 years old said colonel when he led the assault on fort fisher in january 1865 where he was shot to pieces and on his deathbed he was promoted to Brigadier General. Then he lived. Got better. So they bumped him up to major general. Anyway, so in addition to having it wasnt just luck. The promotion to general wasnt just love. He earned it. He earned it through the various charges that he died in battles that he thought he frequently just joining units in battles had no business being joined race. He just went out in it. So now he had a whole brigade to fight with them four days later there he is on day three of gettysburg. Im sure you are all with the story of the battle duesberg. The custer was on the right flank. Again, kind of lucky because general greg who was not his commander, general kirkpatrick was his commander, doing stuff that the end of the battlefield, but greg needed some people over here and he said we are going this way because something bad is going to happen and i need guys. Custer said okay, no problem. Sure enough, the instincts were right because here comes the confederate calgary swooping around, trying to get around the union right flank of supported tickets charge, which was going on in the center of the battlefield. So that is where custer really reached National Fame with his consecutive charges that gettysburg. The same is, on, you will for reasons, with his michigan regiments one after another, spending each regiment against superior forces with the idea he was going to stop, slow down or otherwise confused with the confederates were doing. As it turned out, it worked. He stopped stuarts advance. Its funny because in the after action report said the unions had left the field. They left the field because they beat you. The way he reported it was inaccurate. He was the one who left the field. They left later when you are gone. But after that, the boy general with the gold market was famous. Another important thing was he convinced the man he was leading in the michigan or create who are wondering why this 23yearold kid was suddenly the general. Through that battle he convinced them that okay, he has a right to be in command because look at them go. This guy knows how to fight. So what if he is wearing kind of an eccentric uniform. Old ways that i read by in this bluecollar instead. It doesnt matter. He can or all of the gold lacy wants if he can fight like that. So that really cemented custer as someone who at National Fame. Also because he started making friends with reporters, which doesnt hurt. The New York Times was following him around. Why . They knew they were going to get a good story. If you spend your time following someone around, follow the guy whos going to fight them can give you a good story. Again, not famous for nothing. Its not like he had the reporters follow him around and did you than the story. He did and thats why they left. Plus other commanders wouldnt even talk to reporters. Sherborn had one courtmartialed the history of Civil Military relations. Custer however maintained a Good Relationship with pleasanton who is the head of the caliber record. But he had a bad relationship with judson kilpatrick, his commander. It seemed like every time something went wrong in their division, kilpatrick was blamed, but if something was right, custer got the credit cannot begin to wear on kilpatrick. He didnt like the rematch. Ultimately try to sideline and custer and something called the dog regrade, he sort of sent custer on a Suicide Mission behind confederate lines. Not really caring if custer came back or not. As it turned out, the main source of debris, which he was involved in turned into a tragedy. Kilpatrick didnt get killed. Dahlgren did, son of secretary needed. Theres a big fiasco in that kind of broad kilpatricks career. Custer meanwhile did this brilliant maneuver behind rebel lines and captured prisoners innovated jumps to his guys and came swooping back, didnt take any casualties and saved the day. City got to meet with the president. He was meeting with members of congress. Which is dutiful for him. Socal patrick kind of blew it. Around the same time, we have another reorganization work rant comes in from the west. He brings sharon in the long feared pleasanton unfortunate casualty of this raid which he opposed was sent last shared incomes than the now shared and is going to be head of the calgary. Custer and sheraton really hit it off well. He became sheratons righthand man. He could fight the war they wanted to fight. Lincoln had grant. Grant had sheraton, shared and had custer. They were fighting the kind of worthington wanted. An aggressive, offensive, get it done kind of thing. So this is all very good for custer. In the sense that it gave him the opportunity to fight many battles, which is what he wanted to do and to excel at that. Its not the new one every time. Sometimes he got some pretty tough scrapes. In the book i find every report i could have custer been reported killed. When you look at little big horn and the first reports of his death, no one believed it because there were so many reports of him being dead. Poor libby, was the best custer, his wife in washington at the time, her newsboys below her window. Extract, custer killed and had to deal with that before was proved he was annoying. Inline. So he becomes this new aggressive for that is going to destroy the confederacy. There is a statue of him and then route, which is at the moment deciding the enemy at gettysburg, where hes tried to figure out what is going to do about all of this. Here is a sketch of custer and his men scouring the Shenandoah Valley in the summer of 1864 when grant decided the way to deal with the confederacy was to destroy their bread basket. So they went and burned all of the forms they could find in the lower part of the valley and custer was one of the guys who did that. It was during this he was elevated to Division Commander and after this has made a major general. He won some significant date or restoring that. Cedar creek is pretty wellknown. He played a big role at that one. Another one i would like to point out is toms work. Here is a sketch from nonbattle, also known as the with the races in which you face off with one of his west point classmates, thomas tex rosser, who is a confederate calgary man. They fight each other throughout the war. In this particular battle, before the sides were lined up, the confederates were a strong position behind the position behind a creek in on the heel, kind of down. Ready to receive the union. Custer was lined up on the other side having to go down over this broken terrain. If you go there, it is pretty imposing terrain. Making sure all eyes were on him while this you know, this strikeforce is going around and getting ready to hit them in the flex. We need a visit charge across this truly background and the other side is get rid to hit him, they got hit in the flight. They panicked, broke and ran. Has a really happen. It wasnt custer showing off. This is part of the genius he had for these things. This is how we understood battle. Battle isnt just who has the most guns. Theres a psychology to battle. Catastrophists instinct. When you look at all of the battles he thought, not just the big ones but the little ones, he just had this intuitive sense we are to send his forces, where to hit the enemy, when did it look like they were breaking come when did it look like they were too strong and would have to try something else. He was good at it. A more battles he fought the better he got. He is maybe famous for nothing. Know, he is famous because he got it done and he was a natural born warrior any just now to do it. So after the this when you look at the april 1865 when the confederate line around richmond and petersburg was broken, custer played a big role in that at the battle of five forks. Then you have this pursuit for a week towards appomattox where the army was trying to swing south and link up with johnsons army which would be driven by showman up to the carolinas. And the union forces were meanwhile, trying to keep lee from doing this to keep them separate. It was custer who was leading all this. He was way out in front trying to block the to for positions with the confederates try to go block the road, block the bridges, block the railroads. And just magnificently fighting for days on end with the men with little rest. Taking a whole regiment prisoner at a time. When he subverted a confederate regiment he was take of their banner and whoever captured it, he would put them behind it like this little personal bodyguard that he had. So custer would be riding along followed by 20 guys with confederate banners showing, you know, these are the people that we have defeated. Its almost medieval when you think about it. It is demoralizing as heck to the confederates to see this. And then finally it was custer skies to block lee at appomattox, backed them into the courthouse and forced the surrender of lees army. We have it come heres custer accepting the flag of truce so that suspended the fighting so that lee and grant could need and negotiate the terms of surrender. Typical custer, where is the as history is being made, this great historic meeting, one of the greatest movies of american history, these two west pointers, north and south are coming to end this national cataclysm . Custer who brought it about, what is he . Hes off joking around with some confederate west point her friend of his who he hadnt seen in a long time. Rather than be at this historic meeting, hes off screwing around. That George Custer. You know, thats just the kind of guy that he was. By the way with respect to the surrender flag come he had sent to libbey and she was disappointed that it was just a dishtowel. [laughter] she thought about it. Armies dont really care around this beautiful surrender flags. Its probably a bad idea to carry those around, but in any case. Him so there he is. This is april 1865, this photo. Hes a major general. Hes 25. He has spent his entire career, i mean he went directly from west point to the war and he spent four years fighting the greatest war of the 19th century with the biggest armies ever in history of mankind. Fighting, not just fighting in the playing a significant role in critical battles that shaped the history of the war. And so here he is. Now what . Where do you go after that . Where do you go in your career . What do you do with your life after that . Hes only 25 when this photo was taken. So what do you do . He had options. He couldve gone into politics. One of his regimental commanders became the governor of michigan, for example. Kuster couldve been governor of michigan early. It was there for the taking. He couldve been in congress. He couldve been a senator. He couldve written his own ticket in politics, no doubt. He couldve look at a diplomatic post. He was thinking maybe i could be an ambassador. Some people were doing that. There was an idea that he would go to mexico and fight within mexican rebels who were fighting against the public government had been set up by the french. He was going to go but the sector a state got in the way of that and said it might be a diplomatic incident. He was raring to go for that. He may be couldve gone into business although we didnt have a head for that but who knows, he could have. He couldve done many things but instead he stays in. He stayed in the army. And this is when things start to go wrong. First thing is he goes down to louisiana and texas because guess what . The war is still on. The war is still going on. There was still some resistance for a while, and then there was an expectation it would be more resistance at through an abundance of caution the government was keeping some regiments in uniform. Volunteer regiments from states from people about the war was over who wanted to go home. So there was a lot of of desertion. In order to deter this custer had some guys went. Well, this wasnt so good because her things you can do during the war. They were hanging people or the expression branded as a deserter . Take it literally because back in debate thats what they did. They would branch you. So there were punishments, but you cant really do this in peacetime. Even though technically the war was still going on, in fact most people thought it was over. So this got him some very bad press. He went from the golden haired hero to the hero of the lash, and particularly in iowa which is the regiment were some guys were whipped. The Iowa Legislature passed a condemnation of custer. It just didnt look good. So that was bad. The postwar drawdown affected him because once the war was over, we didnt need a whole bunch of generals. So he reverted to his regular army rank of captain. Well, captain, fine, but he just did all this great heroic stuff. Can you do Something Better . Okay, they bumped him up to Lieutenant General and made them Deputy Commander of the new regiment. Customer didnt think that was a great. He had been a Division Command and he helped win a war. Everyone told him, all these guys hey, you helped us win the war. No, you would be a regimental Deputy Commander. Well, okay, you know, he will take it but he wasnt happy. So then in order to try to improve his station, he got linked in with supporting president johnson who of course succeeded lincoln. And got involved in politics trying to promote the idea of the new centrist coalition because no one knew what was going to happen after the war politically. Everyone knew what was going on before the war. Youre the northern democrats, seven democrats, republicans and assorted others, but the Republican Party had been an abolitionist party. Well, slavery is gone. The seven democrats have been forced labor. Its gone. So how is it going to sort out . 130 was there will be like this northern democrats and exrebels and disaffected people from the Republican Party will get together and form this centrist thing and that will be the new dominant force. So custer got involved in that kind of politics. Well, bad move because what really happened was the republicans took over. Even without abolition as an issue, it didnt matter anymore. They had a new issue. They won the war. Thats a much stronger issue. And all of the relationships that were made during the war became logical relationships after the war. To the great benefit of ohio, i might add. If you look at all the ohio president s that followed the civil war, all veterans, and mostly they fought in the same unit. Custer, big miscalculation on custers part, but the thing is ever since youve been on the cleland staff, he had ducked the idea that his reputation of being a mcclellan man who of course was antilincoln every democrat. So we always, republicans in charge, he always had to sort of put distance between those ideas, which were true by the way. He was a mcclellan them. He loved mcclellan and he was a democrat all his life. So the drawdown, the stuff in texas and louisiana, at politics, it wasnt good for kuster. Then he had another problem, which is frontier duty. He was not a frontier warrior. He had never been out there. He did know anything about that. He was a conventional warrior and in the classical sense. He fought the civil war, force on force battle, if you want to call it that. He faced the same problems that we faced in vietnam, afghanistan and iraq. What do you do about our insurgency . Because essentially thats the kind of warfare we fought against the indians. It wasnt Like Fighting for the confederacy. The confederacy, they would stand up and fight you. The indians would run away and then ambush you later when youre all strong out. They have their own way of fighting but it was totally different. But well adapted to their environment. Custer had a taste of this chasing mosby in Northern Virginia during the war. Mosbys raiders come it didnt work then either. He couldnt find them and it didnt work out well. General john gibbons said that glory on the placement being shot by an indian from behind a rock and having your name spelled wrong in the newspapers. [laughter] its a different kind of war. Just not what kuster was used to. And the thing about that is he thought few battles in the next 10 years that he did in his last year of the civil war, and they were mostly small battles but when you look at the skill of combat of custer on the planes, totally different. Little bighorn was the really big one, and even little bighorn if you look at the number of casualties there, a couple hundred, compare that to antietam, for example. Nothing. It was a very small engagement by civil war standards, but thats what custer was used to at the time. So all of this added up to come here he is on the planes talking to pawn the killer, an indian chief who was causing him some difficulty during 1867 campaign against cheyenne. And here he is later wondering about life. He was courtmartialed at the end of that campaign forgo some people say he was a scapegoat because john hancock who would run the campaign have done a bad job and they need somebody to blame it all and they blamed it on custer. On the other hand, custer did abandon some of his guys in the field and he had some deserters shot, and did some other things. So, you know, you be the judge. You can read the record and see. Its in the book, too, but custer thought he was framed and he was being scapegoated. Shared and agreed with him, but it didnt matter to cuba still courtmartialed and suspended for a year. Just two years after the civil war when he was a great hero, now he is suspended from duty. And has to take the year off. A bad time for custer. He didnt let it show. He spent a lot of time hunting and fishing, that kind of thing, that it wasnt good. Then he was resurrected because the problem with the indian wars was you couldnt find the enemy. The same problem today. When you can find the guerrillas, you know, the taliban or the islamists take on whoever happens to be cut if you can find them you know what to do. The problem is finding them. Well, someone came up with the idea, later credited to sheridan, how about Winter Operations . Get them in the winter when they cant move around a lot . Isnt a going to be harder for the army to do . Yes, but its even more harder for the indians to move. Okay. They mount the winter operation and they need someone who can test this concept, so who are you going to call . That go get custer. They cut a month off his sins and bring it back. Thats where we get this, the famous battle of washita, also known as washita massacre to be on which side you want to take on that debate. Custer let this operation against black kettle, a cheyenne chief who previously figured tragically in something called the sand creek massacre were his people at that. I really feel sorry for black kettle. He keeps getting in these things. Not after this though because he got killed. But this brought custer back because from the armys point of view and from the public point of view, this particular attack validated the concept of Winter Operations and showed that the indians could be defeated. To the critics of it was an attack on a peaceful village, a people who are lying to their own business and then the calvary came in and slaughtered every but it. The actual number of People Killed is disputed. The number of women and children killed is disputed. The are a lot of dispute about this but the important thing to note, to the important things, number one, that there is an argument about it. Number two, its what brought custer back because in the eyes of his superiors he did a great job. So after this he reinvents himself as a frontiersman. Heres a picture taken in the studio, odyssey outside in kansas city. He becomes a great buffalo hunter. Heres an illustration of his first buffalo hunt where he managed to kill his own horse. [laughter] a people succumb ive heard people criticize committed know what he was doing. Like George Custer is not a good horseman, are you kidding me . He was a brilliant horsemen. He just made a mistake. The other thing is theres his horse laying there. Which is also libbies favorite mount and that was captured. Guillory we know about it was because custer wrote about the he was out a loan on the planes trying to gun down this big bowl buffalo with a pistol, which is probably a mistake, but he wrote about it. He was an arrogant guy. He admits this mistake. Thats a pretty big mistake to admit if youre an arrogant guy to holders of up to that kind of mockery. I think thats actually very characteristic and that he would admit his foibles. He was ingenuous that way. He could laugh at himself in which is not something that you usually hear about him but i think its true. He had i lost my picture. There we go. His wife libbie by his side throughout this, his childhood crush. He says anyway. She didnt notice him when they were younger, she said. He noticed her, and then he won her hand over the objections of her father finally relented when he became a joke because okay, a general is good enough for my daughter. A good way to look at it. And outwardly an amazing romance. They worke Work Together whenevr possible. Theres a terrific stories regarding their marriage and the romance. My favorite one is that when the confederacy collapsed and left richmond, she was on a congressional tour that went down there very soon after and she got into richmond before he did. He was coming back from appomattox and better than virtuous thing in Jefferson Davis his bedroom at the time and thats where they were reunited. Such as wow, can you imagine that life, and they are in their 20s . , on. Actually something, just a tremendous circumstances that the libyan. But there was a rumor of custer being a ladies man. Thats not libbie that he is kissing there. I love the expression of the matron behind them, who is shocked. This is at a reception that he and president grant and sherman were out where the ladies just started kissing the generals. Kind of a comical circumstance but it did make the papers. There was this idea that custer was having various relations, and allegedly somewhere, someone says theres a list. Ive never seen this is supposedly in the secret papers of libbie that no one has seen but theres a list of all the women that George Custer was seen on the side. Well, produce this list. Everyone wants to see it. I dont know what was going on but i do know this. A lot of what we know about custer and other wind comes from letters that george wrote to libbie. He would talk about, theres one reason new york on a business trip and he talks about theres this 19 your blogger keeps walking by the hotel. Shes trying to catch my attention that i went on a talk to her for a while. Gentlemen, why would you write this to your wife . Seriously. This is going to help promote good feelings at home . I dont think so. Or this Indian Princess they captured, the maiden with the dancing eyes who was supposedly very beautiful. Again, how do we know this . He wrote to libbie all of doctor. Shes beautiful. She laughs. She loves all my jokes. Libbie got out to where where he was quickly. Ass she packed up and got to him. Why would she do this . Maybe she was a ladies man or maybe he was just communicating to libbie that he was a popular guide and maybe she should pay more attention to him, i dont know. Another dig at custer, probably the one youre the most these days, that he was this genocidal indian hater, that he would kill indians at the drop of a hat. This is not true. Thats not true. Its a much more nuanced picture. He was a man of his times, no doubt, but he said there was Nothing Better he wrote about this. This. He lived in the event, the ones who live near the force and he dealt with and. He said theres Nothing Better than living side by side with them in peace where you could be a most of them. You could witness their culture, you can see the customs and all the traits. He thought it was fascinating. You know, he observed them objectively. He wrote positive and negative things. He wrote about the reservation system at how we thought it was killing their spirit. He said the spirit of the indian is to be free come and that when they go on the reservation, they lose their culture. They start drinking. And by the way, george did not drink. He gave up a drink. He didnt smoke either. And it really to do. He was a severe critic of us. He thought that the indians were much better when they were living their own lives in their own culture. And he saw that the heat is indian scouts who loved him. Once said at the heart of in indiana. Indeed, he wrote that if he were one of them, if you were a member of the tribe he would not be someone on the reservation. He would be one of the dissenters writing free across the plains, the crazy horses and the sitting bowls, those with a people he admired because they were hanging onto what made them what they were. That doesnt sound like he was just an indian killer to me, but that sounds like you were to try to reach an understanding of who those people were. He found things in them to admire and i think the things he most admired about the were things he saw in himself that he liked. Thats my take on custer and the indians. But he fough thought that in any given. Why did he do that . He was a soldier. He was a soldier, and the hostile bands were enemies. And he went after the enemy. Thats what he did. He burned indian villages, yeah, sometimes. Do you know what else he burned . The Shenandoah Valley. If you want to do a body count, add up the number of probable indian dance that he was responsible for directly or indirectly against the number of confederate. He killed a lot more confederates than he ever did indians. So its really, to me its a superficial argument saying he thought and. That was his job. What was he supposed to do . General sherman tells them to do something, what is he supposed to do . I dont know, general sherman, because if we live in peace and harmony it would be much better. It would be budget the enemy and you are ordered to go fight them so thats what he did. What i would say is with respect to this issue, keep it in perspective. Bad things happen, no doubt. Bad things happening everywhere but custer wasnt some kind of crazy genocidal killer. He was a soldier and he did what he did. So spent a lot of time on the front typically spent several years in kentucky. Dignified a lot of battled it was like they were out there ranging around fighting all the time. It and and float. Sometimes the seventh calvary wasnt even involved. He went on a the yellowstone expedition, 1873, which was to charter a route for a railroad, northern pacific. There was some fighting there. He fought some of sitting bowls guys, a couple of battles. He did a good job in them. He learned there is lessons about the indians in those battles, things that probably informed them when he was fighting at little bighorn. Probably informed him wrong. But he did understand some of the things i can, like at that time the indians were better armed than our guys because the calvary had been facing budget cutbacks and had inferior weapons where the indians were Getting Better weapons. During the yellowstone expedition he relies there was a problem. But really what started the chain of events that changed things was this company 1874 black hills expedition. Which custer led and which discovered gold in the black hills. There some argued over how much gold was found our web it was enough to start a gold rush for things like that. Over the customer was a cheerleader for the gold rush or whether he was in the pay of the railroad. Theres a lot of theories about that, but the fact is the gold rush happened. Because of that the black hills were supposed to be off limits. They were supposed to be part of the great sioux reservation of sacred grounds of indians but it was not going to be messed with. Well, you cant keep out people who are pursuing gold during the gold rush, particularly when you have an economic downturn which was happening at the time. So there was the idea the idea that was the idea the government would lie would buy the black goes on to india to the needs the want of anything to do with that. This was the point single and of the said treaties are worthless with you got to youre breaking your word with us. Youre trying to get is to be complicit by offering us paltry sums. Were not staying on the reservation. We will go out, lived International Way and youll just have to deal with it. That chain of events started wont and thats what leads you to the battle of little bighorn because little bighorn happened after the interior Department Gave an ultimatum to the indians who were off the reservation to say if you dont get back we will send out the army, and they did. So thats how that happen. But before we get to there, you have to have the washington angle. Everything is really about washington. Heres president grant. See, i think that custer had a little resentment for grant. Because custer, its now 10 years after the war is over, he is still a Lieutenant Colonel. He steals the Deputy Commander of the seventh cavalry which is going through two colonels. There were opportunities for custer to be promoted. No, it went to older guys who were just going through their army career. Custer said the heck with this, i want to be the commandant of cadets at west point, which wouldve been awesome. The returning goat being the comment at of cadets. The second ranking guy at west point. That wouldve been fantastic to know, he didnt get the. Grant didnt help them out. No one pulled strings for them. He thought about quitting. My career is going nowhere. Every thing is stagnant. Forget it. But then the election of 1874. In the fall november the democrats controlled the house for the First Time Since before the war it was a democratic house. Finally, people custer can work with, his friends, democratic party. Custer gets involved in that spring in 1876 with hearings on corruption in the Grant Administration in particular testifying against the secretary of war. You have a serving Lieutenant Colonel on the hill giving testimony that is taking down the secretary of war who, in fact, had to resign and was impeached after he resigned, thats a mad they were at him. He wasnt convicted but secretary of war belknap. And then also custer was obliquely advocating of in the Grant Administration concluding the president s brother. You can guess the president was thrilled by these developments of a city officer, particularly some of you know and worked with during the war, custer. They knew he was kind of a loose cannon, but come on. Are you going to do that to the president . So sherman to that point is the chief of staff of the army come hes trying to help custer outcome first telling and you got to shut up but i will try to work something out with grant. Grant says the heck with this, you are not going on the sioux expedition. Im taking you off because you interrupted your preparations for that to come to washington to jam me up, so fine, you are off. This wasnt so good. Custer tries to get meetings with grant to plead his case. Grant will see him. Sherman says sit tight, we will work it out. Does custer sets tide . No. He decides to go back to his command at fort lincoln. Wrong move. So at chicago he is arrested and told youre in big trouble. Finally, through the intervention of sheridan and others, not to mention george literally pleading on his knees for clemency, he has finally allowed to go on the sioux expedition with two stipulations. The point, he would not be in command of the. He would just be in command of his regiment. And number two no reporters. You cannot take on any reporters. You know, to talk about how great you do. Of course, custer immediately blew those accused to galatians all. And since he got free he did his own thing and, of course, he brought his own reporters along. Hes George Custer, thats what he does. Thats the political background to this but i think you put a chip on his shoulder as he had something to prove when he went to little bighorn. When he went on the expedition rather, he did know it would end up there. When we get little bighorn, we can talk a lot about this battle. Its one of the most may be the most written about battles in american history. This and gettysburg. So theres a lot to say about the very strong opinions. People dig into their positions on what happened. It overshadows all of the custer, all of his life. This really became a defining moment for him. Even though he did all this stuff before and that made him famous, but this becomes a thing. It was a famous because of custer. Otherwise wouldve just been a battle. But because he died there, the a moral custer who could not be killed, this flamboyant, famous guy fighting a battle against people who have no business winning battles, right . No one thought the indians could win a battle that day. It just seemed inconceivable. How could this possibly have happened . And there are a lot of reasons. Think about, i will about, i dont know how they have been out to the battlefield, but they have workers were all of the bodies were found, of the men who fell. Little white markers were every body was found. What other battle do you know of where it is that frozen in time, where they have marked the location of all of the men on one side, anywhere, who died . Incredible. Just the myth that surrounds this battle. Its amazing and there are also some markers that they started putting up for native americans, where they think they might have been. So when you look at the mistakes he made, and again i dont want to hold this section of the battle because it would take too long, but custer made mistakes in this battle. Poor intelligence, we call intelligence preparation of the battlefield, meaning he didnt find out enough beforehand of what he was going into. He should have done more scouting but he was trying to take them by surprise so we didnt. A poor estimation of any moral and fighting capability. He thought maybe they would run, but they didnt. Inferior weapons, which i mentioned before. Not really his fault that he should have been aware of the kind of firepower he was going into against his own firepower which was superior. And most importantly, dividing his forces and not properly coordinating them. He kind of lost track of where all of these guys were and wound up isolated way down at last stand hill. That was a problem. That was really his biggest mistake was going so far down that ridge. If you know the battle, at one point, either some of his men or all of his men come again its debated, they went down to the river. They came back up but they kept going further where they could be cut off and surrounded. And thats really what killed him. Are we okay . So when it came time when you was isolated and he couldnt regroup his name because reno, you know, major reno, one of his battalion commanders was just not a good guy. Didnt show the Proper Initiative and was a bad command acted like anyway. He didnt do anything. And then keen, and custer was about and why temperatures the final order from custer telling them to come on quick, bring packs, big village, hard to read but does the actual order that is at west point in the museum up there. You know, but no, he didnt come on quick. You didnt bring packs but it wasnt big village. It was too big. So i mean again, you could debate. Im just really briefly summarizing what i think was the biggest mistake custer made. Little bighorn and the tragedy, the thing i like best about it, if you can say like about it, it was sitting bulls account of how custer died. That he was the last man standing of his command that was surrounded and shot down and that he fired the final shot from his revolver, and then he laughed. The person who was interviewing single said, you mean he cried out . Like he wasnt speaking english to know, he laughed because he fired his final shot. Then when they found his body it was laying there with a smile on his face. The custer made his own death, and i think if hes going to go out anyway in a blaze of glory, and that was the way to do it. And that cemented him in fame forever, and it was also in the many times that custer was reported dead, it was the first time, it was true. So heres a statue of him that was erected at west point, which later disappeared by the way. If youre ever at a yard sale and you see Something Like that [laughter] let me know because everyone is looking for it. The base of the statue is currently over his grave, that the top of the actual statue, libbie didnt like it and so after years of testing people, she prevailed on west point to take it down and theres a whole story. Its missing. No one knows where it is. It must be hard to hide, but its somewhere. So let me sum up custer. We talked about the extreme, like hes this wonderful unblemished hero or he is this idiot, or all of these things that are said about them but i just dont believe any of them. He was none of those types of extremes. He might have had some extremes but i dont think those are the ones. What was he . He was a selfmade man. Hes got a very american story he was this kid from ohio who went on and did all of these amazing things. And he achieved it through his own ability and maybe thread lock. Maybe through luck. He was a brave men. No one can say he was a. He charge right into the teeth of enemy fire, when he was a lieutenant, a captain or a general. He had the same mo. He would just move and just go right into. He was a natural born warrior, instinct for battle. He knew how to operate his forces on the battlefield. Yes, he was this colorful and centric, which is what made them memorable. It probably, its one of the reasons why were talking about him, no doubt but i dont think its the only reason. He got what he wanted. He said earlier in his life that he craved adventure, that he craved admiration, and they got all those things. But i think one problem was he got too soon. He got almost immediately in his life. 25, sort of the peak of his fame and power. Then it went away and he had to do with all these problems and just kind of a career stagnation and things plodding along. He didnt have kids. He lived a good life with the libbie and they seemed happy but it wasnt what it was. He had that taste of it at 25, making things happen it would be remover for all time. He was there, part of it, shaping world events. And then it was gone. He never got it back. May be that getting was what he was chasing down medicine tale at little bighorn to make it as part what he was trying to find again. Maybe thats the real custer. Any case, thanks for coming out tonight. I will close this out and i will take any of your questions. [applause] please and were going to the rotunda afterward for book signing and you can have extensive conversations afterwards. I would be interested to know how you came to this subject matter. Was this other child or something you develop later on . It kind of develop later on actually. When i was younger in the study military history i was mainly a world war ii buff, because my dad served in world war ii and it was much more interesting to me than the civil war. Civil war came later when i was working for the marine corps at quantico and we did staffing for all of the battlefield. I had to get interested in it because that was my job. I really developed more of an interest in it at that time. And this particular book grew out of the first book on the ghost, and the ghost came from gettysburg. Because we were on Little Round Top talking about guys who are last in their class. I thought how many guys are last iin the class at gettysburg . Turned out there were six at gettysburg who are last in the class. [inaudible] George Patton . No doubt. George patton, similar west point experience, kind of communism as they say the statue of him at west point was returned to the library for a reason. [laughter] when you look at his early career starting in the mexican expedition where he did some heroics offthecuff things ended world war i. People dont know the story of the young George Patton. To me, it is much more interesting than his later stuff. I would have to say patton and custer are very similar guys. Theres this old thing when it comes to the courtroom they say custer had it coming, which a lot a tribute to the think the arrogance and like his, he didnt have the preparation for the battle. Is tactical skills out on the plains were probably only a third of what they were in a typical force on force. Do you think that when he went out on the plains, he was doomed because eventually his missteps that this would happen sooner or later . Not necessarily. He could have survived little bighorn right up until the end is when he made that last move. That was the problem. When he put his battalion out of any kind of realistic support. It instead of going north he had gone south back up the way he came, instead of being like four miles a way, he was maybe two miles away, or even if youve been tracking more closely what is other battalions were doing, that was his failing. He should have kept better track of that, seeing that we know was a moving forward like he was supposed to, he should have seen that movement and responded to it. Dont think i can think of why he would keep going was that other column with the general very which was supposed to be coming south to meet them, maybe theres like a remote idea that he could see in the distance a Something Like that. But he was slowed down. He was way far away. To me its that final move because renos guys survive. Had custer been able to unite they wouldve made it through the battle, no doubt because if those two battalions can make it, then three battalions can make it. So no, i dont think it was inevitable that i dont think he had it coming. He made mistakes, no doubt, and in numerous him, particularly business estimation. But the real thing one was the final move. Some people say, this would disarray to end the debate. Was custer even alive . Theres one account where he got killed at the river and they carried his body back up. I dont know. Those debates are endless but in my opinion if its true that all went down to the river, then they should have come back, they should have known where reno was, that is not what he shouldve been, and should pull back, but they didnt. Hello. I note there was supposed to be a threepronged attack, including general crook, and im sure at the time custer had no idea that crook had met a few days earlier in a batl