Author timothy eagan. This is live coverage of the tucson book festival. Good morning, welcome, im going to be moderating this conversation this morning with timothy eagan. I want to expand thanks to cspan tv and book tv for sponsoring and will last approximately one hour, including questions and answers till the end of the panel immediately following the session tim will be autographing books at the bookstore, thats 153 by the university bookstores. Because youre enjoying the festival and im sure you all are, please consider joining the festival of the tucson festival of books. So become a friend by visiting the Student Union ballroom or go into our website. Out of respect for the author, please turn off your cell phones, now, if you would. This morning its our pleasure to have timothy eagan. The worst hard time and the National Best seller the big burn. Tims current book just released last week is entitled to immore eat irishman who became an american hero, a biography of thomas mar. Hes sadly been largely forgotten since his death so tim what starked your interest in mar. Well, thank you, bruise, its great to be here in this lovely arizona morning, this huge crowd, i cant believe it. You people love books. [laughter] also ive been told a number of times ive been told this is the best book festival in the world. [cheers and applause] but as someone who is interested in getting the truth right, ive been to i havent been to every book festival in the world but my experience is it passes that task. I would like to think that i pe im one of seven kids, you know, one after the other, sort of classic irish family. I like to think i knew our history. And even though i thought i knew our history, i was somewhat of a lapsed irishamerican. [laughter] i was standing outside the montana capitol with thengovernor brian schweitzer, great guy, and theres this enormous e equestrian statue. You just cant miss it. You can see it from miles away. And its, as i said, a map on his horse with a sword pointed towards the Rocky Mountains and at the the base are these fighting words, given from dublin at the time irish were dying. And i said who the hell is that on the statue, and the governor looks at me and says you dont know who Thomas Francis meagher is . At one point he was the most famous irishman in the united states, probably not until john f. Kennedy came along was will a more famous irishamerican. He affected history on three continents. He lived 12 lives in his short 43 years. There were liberated slaves because of him, there was a free ireland because of him, a free australia because of him. He knew abraham lincoln, he knew chief red cloud of the sioux, he knew daniel oconnell, the man who freed the catholics in ireland, he knew horace greeley. So how could this giant stride three continue innocents and continents and have him disappear . He was flawed as well as brilliant. One line just jumped out at me at the beginning of your book, and that is to be irish in ire was to live in a land liarland was to ireland was to live in a land that was not your own. Meagher was born in 1823, previctorian ireland. And its, theyre getting into probably the 700th year of being under the english boot heel. And you have to understand, i saw all these parallels later, what we now call ethnic cleansing, what we now call apartheid. And in the famine what we now call genocide. None of those terms were around. All of those were applied to the irish. So for almost 700 years it was, essentially, a crime to be irish. They took away their land, they outlawed their religion, they outlawed their language, spoken by a majority of the people. They outlawed their sport, hurling. The first thing the irish did when they moved to newfoundland, one of the first things they did was establish a hurling club just to say this will not die. They did everything, they banned the harp. Queen elizabeth in the 15th century said round up the harpers wherever they are found and happening them. So why is the harp on the bottle of guinness . [laughter] why is the harp in front of, on the irish brigade flag during the civil war . Its a martyr instrument, it was an outlawed instrument. People always ask me why do the irish cling to the roman catholicism . Well, because it was a way for a conquered people to remain defiantly irish. Now remember, the wifekilling king, henry viii, tried to insist every irishman and woman follow his new religion, anglican church, again, founded by a serial killer. Sorry. [laughter] so this didnt really go well after theyd taken Everything Else from them. One of the things that happened most people didnt understand after the cromwell conquest which was just brutal pillaging be plundering, and thats when they kicked them off their land and gave the land to the cromwell soldiers. About 80 of the irish didnt live on their own land, and they say one of the worst things you can say in ireland is the curse of cromwell be on you. They sent 40,000 people or thereabouts into slavery in barbados and other parts of the caribbean. There are descendants of them still. So they did everything they could for most of 700 years to erase the irish people, take everything that made them a people, their song, their language, their sports, their culture, to take it away from them. Meagher comes of age just as theyre lifted some of the penal laws, but you still cant serve in parliament unless youve renounced your religion. So that set the stage for his, for his coming astride. That kind of begs the question then i went to, i went to college in the late 60s and early 70s, so its hard for me not to see parallels sometimes. How does a young, wealthy irishman whos fathers a member of parliament become a revolutionary . The great famine. It is to this day considered the biggest crime in the history of ireland. Now, i want to put this in context, because theres been a lot of good scholarship on this. Most people think that the famine was caused by the potato rot, which it was. The ostensible cause was the potato, you could raise almost your whole family on an acre. You were a tenant farmer, and you put tease tuber these tubers in the ground in the spring, youd come back and or harvest, a little butter milk, maybe some bacon, youd feed your family for a year. They dug up the potatoes, and it was a black mess. It just disappeared. So slowly they get these reports, the crop is failing, people are starting to die. But ireland is raising a lot of other foods; grains, cereal, barley, pork. They are the leading exporter of beef in the British Empire. So the great famine in which a million irish die in four years time, and families are found huddling together they would in these poor houses. Children are in these ditches with their teeth stained green, their barefoot feet just clawed, i mean, horrible seens that the quaker missionaries scenes would describe. The choctaw Indian Nation sent a ship full of corn for the poor, starving irish. The people of calcutta passed the hat for the poor, starving irish. So meagher comes of age at the time of this greatest crime in irelands history. He joins a group of revolutionaries in dublin called the young ireland movement. They were poet, philosophers, educated men and women because women were fully equal in this struggle, ahead of when they ever got suffrage. And they see this horrible crime that irish food is being raised by irish hands, but its not going into irish mouths. Now, to their credit, in 1997 british Prime Minister tony blair apologized for the famine and said it was one of the great crimes of england. Were sorry. Dont take it so hard. [laughter] but, actually, blairs policy sort of opened the windows of scholarship. And what had been a shameful thing in ireland, you ask anyone, oh, we just couldnt talk about the famine. They now know it was what the british called a policy of ec termination. That was extermination. That was their word. If a million of them die, and i want to make this clear, they werent actively killing them, they were passively letting it happen. And the man of who was in charge of the famine, later knighted, he said this death of a million irish was the hand of god and it was, quote, the cure. That was his term, the cure for too many irish. If you go to the Quinnipiac University great hunger museum, theres a portrait of the english gentleman in charge of believing the irish fate and beneath that it says wanted for crimes against humanity. Thats what radicalizes meagher. This man who could have anything he wanted, attractive, eloquent, speaks five languages, wealthy family that came back and bought the land that cromwell had taken from them, they had the biggest house on waterford, which you can visit its a hotel now and you can see meaghers bedroom. He leads an uprising and as, unfortunately, with all irish uprisings, it fails miserably. [laughter] there were these pitchfork paddies, starving irish. Meagher said i underestimated how weak the people would be. They couldnt storm the barricades. The British Empire, the flag of england is flying over onefourth of the everetts land mass, and the most troublesome part is earths land mass, and the most troublesome part of it is little ireland. He urges the hungry masses to storm the ports. Lets stop the food from leaving ireland. Symptom the food, storm stop the food, storm the ports. Hes arrested, and hes sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered and his remains disposed of as her majesty shall see fit. I was a little surprised to see oscar wilde pop up in this book. Could you talk about who these people were . Im glad you asked that. One of meaghers lovers, i think based on the papers, she went on to become the mother of oscar wilde. And whenever he toured, he said i am better known as the son of speranza. She wrote these powerful, powerful poems about what the british were doing to the starving irish. She has this refrain a million irish dead, the skeletons awake, the skeletons call. These crimes you will pay for. And she also wrote these very beautiful poems. She wrote a poem about meagher talking about how beautiful his mouth was and his lips. They were very liberated and very ahead of their time. They were these irish progressives who were closer to late 20th century than the mid Early Victorian age. All of these people were brilliant. One of them and then they were all sentenced to be hang, drawn and quartered. But they all went on to great brilliance. They were all kids in their 20s, imagine taking on the British Empire sonnets against swords. They had this quixotic attitude that Bernie Sanders supporters have [laughter] why dont we just take the banks down, you know . [laughter] they thought, well, you know, the British Empires, sure, they could level dublin is in an afternoon, but wont people see that our cause is great . And meagher gave a speech before 50,000 people one hot august afternoon on a mountain in ireland, and half of them were starving. He was only 23 when he gave that speech. He was considered the great orator in ireland. Yeah, when meagher later banished he doesnt get hanged, drawn and quartered and have his body parts thrown into dublin which is what they did to the rebels of 1798. Victoria, her gracious majesty, commits him to lifetime banishment on the island of tasmania. Suddenly they have the most educated, most brilliant [laughter] and meagher so lonely. Hes the greatest orator, and he talkings to his dog. Talks to his dog. He says ill never make my mark. You cant describe how far australia is at this time. Its more than half the circumference of the earth. He says ill never see ireland again, which he would not. Ill never see my family again. Hes so lonely. And so he, the brits have this thing for the political prisoners. If you gave them your gentleman code of conduct that you would not escape, they didnt put you in a little cage and whack you with a cat and nine tails which is what they did to the petty criminals. So he had a 7 mile by 7 mile zone which he was never supposed to leave. His best friend had a zone next to him. They found a little river is and a foot bridge, and they arranged to have lunch there every friday because they were not in violation of their terms. [laughter] when he moves to his little place, he names his boat speranza and spent many lovely, loan hi afternoons sailing just a little bit here, since were talking about speranza, meagher eventually marries twice, and theyre two very different women. Right. Hes lonely, and theres no other way to say this, hes horny. [laughter] hes a young man in his mid 20s, and he falls in love with governess whos the daughter of a man whod been convicted of highway robbery, as they called him, the highwayman. But she was a beautiful governess, and meagher courts her, he eventually has a child by her, and theyre going to meet later. Meagher then plots his escape. Its one of the most gripping episodes in an amazing life. Takes him 12 days. My kids have warned me to stop giving away all the parts of this book. [laughter] but its shark of filled waters, this is pirates, theres a lot of back and fort. The way he gave up, he sent a note to the governor general of the island of tasmania and said i hereby notify you as of noon tomorrow i shall escape from this place. [laughter] i remain forever your honorable servant, Thomas Francis meagher. [laughter] and that did his gentlemans duty. And then the governor sent these troops up to get him, mooringers on a meaghers on a horse, and he says im Thomas Francis meagher, catch me if you can. [laughter] and he takes off through the tasmanian wild. After 12 days he does manage to escape, and his young wife whos 19 is going to meet him in america, but theres complications that ensue. Why dont you cover a little bit, because theres an irony to meaghers nobility in sending that letter off that later on turns boo a tragic consequence you mean in terms of the that role . Yeah. Eventually because of the global diaspora we do breed a lot, irelands a country of 6 million right now, but there are 70 million worldwide, they put this pressure on Queen Victoria that how can you, this country that is mostly progressive, they ban slavery ahead of the u. S. , they had, you know, rights of men were honored, etc. , but on the irish they had a blind side. So under this global pressure, victoria finally this is years later or commutes the total sentence to australia of the seven young ireland rebels. But because meagher had escaped, he would never be allowed to go back to ireland, that if he just stayed this, he would have been able to go home and see his family, but now the irony of his escape made him, as he said, im a homeless exile, and thats what he was for the rest of his life. We cant talk about irishamericans without talking about immigration because its the story. So if you could just describe a little bit what new york city was like in 1852 when he arrived and hen how the irish and then how the irish were viewed in 19th century america. This is why i write about history. I dont believe the past dead, its not even past, as William Faulkner said. We have these periodic times in our history where we turn against people. Were a nation of immigrants. Only 1 of us are native americans, everyone else is from somewhere else. The irish were the first of the big waves, many waves would follow, italians, southern europeans, asians, but the irish were the first wave. They did not want to leave. They loved their emerald island, but remember, a million died, 1. 5 million left. They were rural people, they raised pigs and potatoes. They got on these cotton ships for ten pounds that was the price and jammed into these quarters. And in the first few years one in five of them died in the passage so that when they arrived, often there would be seven or eight kids orphaned immediately. And some of them were just put on trains and sent to the midwest to be raised by people when had nothing to do with them. So they wash ashore and, remember, theyre rural people. Theyre coming to this cranking, loud, extraordinary series of cities, boston, new york, philadelphia, baltimore. And most of them never go more than four or five blocks from where their ship landed in new york city. They crowd into these awful tenements, just awful. They live 10100 square foot with sleeping on straw on the floor, 37 cents a week with a little bucket for a latrine. Excuse me, some of them still have pigs, and so the New York Times is so shocked, they say if you want to see some real slumming, go down to the Lower East Side and watch, quote, the pigs and the paddies lie down together. So they do fill the jails. Theyre totally out of sorts. Theyre just like they landed on mars. Theres one in four new yorkers in 852 is from ireland 1852. And its the biggest surge of immigration. A million five had left their country, so is theyre just and it naturally, as i said, they fill the jails. They fill what was called the new york city lunatic asylum. And when meagher is appalled. He says look at whats become of our people, this living in misery and squalor. How is this going to help our people . Hes also encouraged because of some of his fellow educated have done very well in this country. Theyre lawyers, prosecutors, judges, writers, politicians, they have the ear of the president. Meagher comes ashore, hes hailed as the savior of the irish masses. The New York Times gives an elaborate story of his escape and says this man can unite the irish masses, hes essentially jesus for the irish, thinking this is the man that can help organize and help them get out of their degradation. Now, the backlash, bruce, which you touched on, is the knownothing party. At one point the second Biggest Political Party in the united states. Its peak is in the 1850s. Its the only party in our history founded for only one reason, antiirish. And some antigerman as well, but mostly antiirish. They elect a governor of massachusetts, a governor in new york, and they push through these laws that makes it really hard for the irish to become citizens, they push through these laws that makes it very hard for them to become civil servants, cops and firemen. The irish dig the ditch, the canal, the sewers, they take care of other peoples children. The citizens, the nonothing party burns catholic churches in philadelphia and burn an irish fire house, they burn irish neighborhoods, they say, get on the boat and go back, they treat them horribly, they draw pictures of monkeys and tails, they basically dehumanize them and thats what mar runs up against the nonothing party before the civil war which rescues him and the rescues the irish is biggest opposition, they have to clink from his head and they start spreading rumors that his escape was dishonorable. I mean, how can an escape be dishonorable. Thats what he comes up as the nonothing party. Yo write that the irish face a dilemma at the outbreak of the civil war and involves slavery, would you like to talk about that a little bit . Sure, theres an interesting passage, its in the book from fredrik douglas, former slave and by the way, terrific novel call that turns on, douglas as a character going through ireland he said, i find myself this is a direct quote i find myself treated here in ireland as a man, not as a color. The irish werent racist. He said they welcomed him. Big crowds turned out for his speeches. But then he said he was appalled by the conditions of the irish peasants. He said only in the American South have i seen anything worse being the slaves, of course, the four million slaves than the conditions of the irish peasant. Then they come to america, and over about ten years where theyre told these blacks if theyre ever freed will take your jobs, the irish start to pick up racist attitudes. So the big question at the outbreak of the civil war was which side would they be on, because theyre told by all their newspapers dont we wont fight to free these blacks because theyll come and take your terrible jobs. Remember, they have the lowest rung. And this is always the case. If theres someone below you, you dont want them to be freed because theyll take your job. And theres a real split. And you can see it. And abraham lincoln, who if you havent come to the conclusion that he was our greatest president , come to that conclusion. [laughter] anytime9 you read anything, you realize this is one of his bits of brilliance, hardly known. He names the best known irishman of his day, whos never fired a shot in his life, a general on the side of the union. Now, you could do this. There were regular Army Officers and what they call political officers. So meagher, the minute the war breaks out, he says hed been an agnostic on slavery. Im against it, but theres nothing we can do about it, we might as well not break up the union. But the minute the war breaks out, it changes him. And it will start a very Strong Political arc in his life where he becomes actually more progressive than most, if not all of his irish. But he says this is the country that ghei us refuge. Gave us refuge. This is the country that took us in after the catastrophe. I myself am a fugitive, im wanted by the British Empire, and yet im a friend of president s in this country. Id be in a cell back there. We have no choice but to fight for the union. And as i said, because lincoln had named him a general, he then forms the irish brigade which is formed out of the fighting 69th, a militia in new york city. You touch before we leave the topic, could you talk a little bit about the new york draft riots in 1863, kind of a Pivotal Moment in meaghers thinking. Its going to require me to to a little bit ahead of the story, but he performs admirably in all the major battles of the war. The word was the irish couldnt organize a parade without getting into fisticuffs, let alone march in formation. [laughter] they go down to the first battle of the civil war, bull run x its a rout for the union except for the irish. The irish did not run. And suddenly all the stories in the paper, my god, whered the 69th come from . They get all this amazing press. The cover of my book is meagher returning triumphant to the battle after to the harbor after that battle of bull run. Lincoln went out and visited the irish brigade and complimented meagher from not running. Meagher was knocked from his horse and knocked unconscious in that battle. They fight in antietam, and the worse for the irish is fredericksburg in late 1862 where its going to be a complete slaughter. They have to go up this hill and take this stone wall up on this hill, and general burnside order the irish brigade to take this wall. Theres no cover, its utterly exposed. Meagher tells his men to take a little sprig of green boxwood and put it under their cap, and he says when they find our bodies, theyll know we died as irishmen. They are just destroyed. He leads 1200 men on several charges of the wall, only 200 lee. And when john f. Kennedy it still gives me goose bumps when i see the speech when john f. Kennedy goes to ireland in 1963, a few months before hes assassinated, he gives a speech to the Irish Parliament, and he talks about the boxwood sprigs that the irish brigade put under the caps, and he talks about general meagher. He said that blood sacrifice, thats what made them american. And then he gives to the people of ireland a flag from that battle which was a harp and a sun burst. And it hangs in the Irish Parliament to this day from that battle. So so i got a little ahead of the story. Now back to the draft riots. 160,000 irish served on the union cause. Because of this theres a lot of resentment by the middle part of the war thats not going well. The union is losing. They start a draft in 186 3w. 1863. But you want to talk about inequality . In that draft you could buy your way out for 200, so the rich never served the union cause unless they were noble, unless they had a higher calling. For 200 you could get out of the draft, or you could present a live person. So if i brought you in and said, bruce, youre going to take my place, i wouldnt have to serve. I would have paid you to be my body. As they rolled the barrel and the first draft in american history, the names that came out were harrigan, omalley, you know, all these irish names. And so they rioted. I will not ever excuse the riot, it was the darkest point in irishamerican history. They strung up africanamericans, they nearly destroyed new york. They would have killed meagher, his fellow irish would have killed meagher because he stuck to the union to the very end had he not been in washington d. C. They went into a home where he was staying, took his portrait and burned it. It was the darkest day, darkest week in irishamerican history. But i i just want to give you the context of it. They felt they were unjustly taking the burden of this, of what is to this day our worst war in terms of casualties. I want to touch a little bit on im a military historian. It struck me that its really interesting to see meagher as sort of a total nonprofessional, epitome of a nonprofessional oldier, and his immediate Commanding Officer who was the consummate, professional, nonromantic soldier. Sherman and meagher did not get along at all. The irish quickly became known as one of the best units in the war. Robert e. Lee on the slave holders side said famously here comes those damn green flags again. [laughter] and every time they saw it, they knew they were in for a hell of a fight. The irish preferred to fight up close just to basically get in their face, just pure salve aagely. Savagery. But meagher called sherman an envenomed martinet. [laughter] he had the gift of gab, but sometimes it got a ahead of him. [laughter] and sherman saw this quote in the newspapers and never forgot about it. Sherman later wrote i have the irish brigade, thank god they can fight, but he basically couldnt stand meagher or the irish at all. One of the things was cultural. You have to understand that between battles the irish would stage these massive festivals while theyre at war. They would have Steeple Chase races, they would have theater, they would play their pipes and their fiddles til three in the morning. And, of course, they had a little liquor involved. [laughter] and a massive st. Patricks day events that were the toast of the union army that all the other generals would come to. So meagher tried to find some joy oh, and they would play hurling, of course, too. Tried to find some joy in the mar junes of the slaughter margins of the slaughter. And all the cultural things the irish are known for, they all practiced in between these battles x. That rubbed the career officers the wrong way as well. Some of them not. I mean, burnside praised them, and he loved going to these festivities. I mean, they would actually stage plays while waiting to charge richmond in the peninsula campaign. They were only a couple miles from the confederate capital. You just couldnt keep that spirit down, and thats how they kept their spirits up, to do all these things. Meagher complained to lincoln one time about sherman threatening to shoot him. Its too good a quote to pass up. I dont remember the exact quote. But lincoln did say if general sherman is threatening to shoot you, general meagher, i would take him at his word. [laughter] you kind of assess, i mean, the war obviously took a tremendous motional toll on meagher, and he developed something thats really unprecedented in my experience, a relationship with a young private. Right. And let me just talk about the relationship with his wife, his second wife. So his first wife then dies in childbirth giving birth to their second son. She does make it to dublin, but he dies there at the age of 21. Meagher will never see his son, by the way. But he falls in love before the war with a woman whos everything he is not. I mean, shes a protestant, hes a catholic. Shes an anglosaxon, hes a celt. Shes this, you know, reserved fifth avenue beauty from old line wasp money, meagher is a fugitive. And he writes this would beautil love letter to her. I got it out of the Montana Historical society where he asks for her hand in marriage, and he says its the most vulnerable ive ever seen him. He goes im here alone, i am a homeless exile, i have nobody, im wanted by the British Empire, you know . Im nothing, but the greatest thing in my life was to find you. And if you will take me as your husband, i will share everything with you. Take my past, take my heritage, let us join our lives together its a beautiful letter. And so she gives up everything to mar ru this irish rebel. Her father promptly disowns her. She ends up living the rest of her life on a 50amonth civil war widows pension. Women could come down to the camp, and he had, he was knocked from his horse twice, he had this horrible abscess on his knee, and he nursed him back she nursed him back, and his can confidence was shattered. He had lost so many people he had personally recruited, whose mothers he knew from the old county, who hed danced with two nights before he had to see their dead faces, and it just kept him. He wept after fredericksburg. He just was destroyed by how many men he personally knew who he had lost. So one of those who was close to him was a young private. You mentioned from pennsylvania, private mccarter. And the lowest point when meagher is suffering all this loss and this sense of privation, its winter. Theyre in this cold mud, the war is not going well, and its just a lost cause almost. Meagher is seen outside of the campfire, and hes drunk. And he starts to fall into this giant bonfire, and the private goes with his musket and holds it out and saves him, prevents him from going into this fire, drags him into his tent, puts him to sleep, and the next day another officer says so meagher, you owe your life to this private. Meagher then does develop a relationship with this boy, and when the kid is winded at fredericksburg wounded at fredericksburg, theyre going to cut off his arm. The solution was to start sawing away at somebodys arm. And this guys got this giant open wound, hes in philadelphia. Suddenly, a team of the best doctors appear at his hospital, and they, theyre taking potential care of him. The boy say, am i going to lose the arm . No, youre not going to lose the arm. He keeps the arm. It turns out meagher or had gone behind the scenes to make sure that this boy had the best medical care. This kid, by the way, wrote a memoir that was never published. I read it somewhere, i forget where it was, in one of the arcves, but he said i never saw general mooring drunk again, and he meagher or drunk again, and he also said he was the finest, most educated man i ever saw put on a uniform. Meagher would just go off on these epic poems. The guy was he loved romance, he loved language, he loved history. Probably didnt love war, i would say. We were talking a little bit on the way over here about what i knew about meagher before reading tims book, and my basic vague recollection, i think i may have seen the chew, i think the statue, i think i vaguely knew he was governor of montana. That seems like a real leap, to go from eye liberty revolutionary to civil war sold writer to governor of montana territory. Not to mention a banishment in tasmania. [laughter] this is why i love this story. I was going to write something about the famine, but im always looking for a really strong story. Thats, i guess its in the irish dna. And you look for, i was looking for a story on which to hang irish history. I wanted to go deep boo my own path into my own past to find out about my own people. You see the arc of irishamerican history through this one man, the whole immigration thing, the whole trying to take away their language, their pride, their dignity, their religion. You see them becoming americans. And what is said about mexicans right now in this current Political Campaign is the exact same language that they said about the irish. Exact same. You could just substitute the word mexican for irish, and its the exact same. So i wanted to bring that history forth. But then you get to the montana part, Third Generation western. My family, it turns out, theyre 349 irish. They my great grandfather came to County Waterford or where meagher is from and moved to butte, montana. At one point there was more gaelic spoken in butte than any place outside of dublin. [laughter] its because of the moons. There was a mine operator who was the wealthiest irishamerican industrialist of his day, and he hired mostly irish at a time that we were building telephone lines everywhere, so we needed copper. Butte was just clogged with irish miners. Thats what became new ireland. So some of that has got this great we were story. Meagher was appalled at the tenements. He also was a newspaper editor. He always talked about any one of you in these tenements are better off if you could just get to the west. If you could just get under some open sky, if you could just get out here. The problem is the irish with clannish. Theyre not lone ranchers. They like to be together. So they came to butte finally because it was a community. They wanted a place where they could do their rituals, a place where they could dance and tell poems, a place where they could feast and tell stories. So meagher sees montana, and this is the word he used, as new ireland. So there was a new england, a new jersey, there might as well be a new ireland. [laughter] this was actually the idea of the American Ambassador to Great Britain who had written to the president saying could we possibly establish montana territory as manager we might as something we might call new ireland and name general meagher as its governor . Well, he is named the secretary, which is the number two person. He comes out, it takes him almost six months to get to virginia city, montana, which is this deadwoodlevel city sitting at 6,000 feet with a corpse hanging over by one side, and you know, manure all over the main street. Drunks rolling around. I mean, just this god awful your worst image of a broken, you know, hard western town. Meagher arrives this is also the capital of the new territory. And theres this welldressed gentleman waiting with his, with a sheath of papers x he greets general meagher, and he says you are now governor, im outta here. [laughter] and this governor gets on the very stage that took meagher to montana territory, and i swear to god, and is never be seen again. [laughter] so now meagher has gone from secretary to governor of a place thats five times as big as ireland. So youve got this irish fugitive with a price on his head is now governor of our largest territory. You know, this, with tims permission, this book ends with a mystery, and id kind of like to leave it that way, meagher dies, but theres till a long controversy right. Im just, by way of context, meagher dies at age 43. He disappears. His bodys never found. He supposedly fell from this steamer at anchor in fort benton, montana. And it is going to any place in montana and suggest that meaghers death was one thing or the other, and youll start an argument. What he was up against was the vigilantes. So it turned out what he had run up against the constitution still applies in the territory of montana. But they had murdered these vigilantes. 40 people by the time meaghers governor with, without a trial. They picked them up and hanged them because they had decided in their secret committee that they were unworthy men, and they should die. These vigilante were the rightthinking citizens of the territory. They were free masons, they were protestants, they did not like the irish, they hated this idea of new ireland, so most of the victims tended to be democrats or irish. And meagher had pardoned one of the people they were going to hang. Theres a picture of him, they then strung him up that night with meaghers pardon in his back pocket. So he went up against the vigilantes. Im just going to say and thank you for giving me the intro to doing this theyre the lead suspect. But also one more thing as one of meagher ors patriots had said, the sun never sets on the British Empires detectives. There were two men from Scotland Yard in fort benton, montana, on the night of his death. They were, he was still a fugitive, remember, he still had a price on his head. They could grab the governor of montana, take him back to ireland, throw him in jail. So these two detectives are floating around this very little town. Meagher also is a teen january. Now, the teen january brotherhood came around about the civil wartime, irishamerican, mostly soldier, who took the vow that they would later go back to ireland after they were done with the slaveholders, theyd sail across the atlantic and liberate their country from the british. And that was the pledge. They actually did invade canada in 1867, but it was illfated. [laughter] and the idea was that these feenians led by meagher always european newspapers were meagher reorganized irish in far west. He really wasnt. So the brits thought heres this guy that we cant beat, hes got nine lives, now hes reorganizing in montana. And they thought they would cross the montana border into what is now alberta but the whole country was then called british north america. So the suspects, and please read it for the ending, are the vigilantes or Scotland Yard or as was reported by the vigilantes, he was drunk and fell off a boat. [laughter] well, that should be enough of a temptation for yall to rush out after the session and get the book. But right now id like to entertain some questions, so if youd like to come down and speak to either one of the mics. So in the movie gods and generals, the charge of marys heights is depicted. And its very good, but the at the top of marys heights, behind the stone wall, is a Confederate Flag with a harp on it. And they cant believe that the, their cousins are wearing blue. And i was just wondering if that was of substance, or was that just hollywood . Well, this is probably an inapt comparison, but i had an interview with bill oreilly on fox the other night, and sometimes theres irishonirish fighting [laughter] thousands of people did join the confederates, thousands of irish did join the confederate cause. Now, meaghers argument was the confederates were trying to get recognized by the brits. Theres no bigger enemy than england. So one of his claims to get people to fight on the union side was the brits were cozying up with the confederacy. If they ever did that, they may have been able to last a little longer. Hes the interesting thing heres the interesting thing. One of meaghers best friends in life was a man named john mitchell. First, he was sent to the caribbean, and then he was sent to tasmania, and he had terrible asthma. Meagher was the great orator during the rebel times, mitchell was the great writer. So it was a onetwo punch. Mitchell would write in the newspaper, meagher would give speeches in front of thousands of people. They were very close. Mitchell finally comes to america as well, but he likes slavery. Something happens in him that he sees slavery as not a bad thing. He writes in his own newspaper that if you irishmen are coming to america looking for a start, get yourself a couple of slaves and come south. And so meagher and he, his other people, break with mitchell. Mitchell has three boys. Two of them were on the other side of that wall when the irish stormed marys heights. So there was not a technical irish brigade in the confederacy, but there certainly were irish who fought on the other side, including the very people who were the kids of his best friends. Also i have a scene in the book where they fight the irish couldnt get into new york, philadelphia, baltimore, would continue going, and they came in through new orleans. New orleans was one of the main ports, later for italianamericans as well, but one of the main ports for irish entry. They had a little unit called the fighting tigers which wasnt formally an irish brigade, but an irish confederate unit. Its just handonhand combat of the irish Brigade Fighting the irish tigers and meagher wondering why the hell arent we directing all this energy against england. Anyone else . Any questions i think we have a gentleman coming down the way here. There we go. Timothy, i want to ask about you. How does a person make the transition from a very good local newspaper reporter into a pulitzer prizewinning author . And what made you think you would make a living at it . [laughter] the last part is the best part of the question. [laughter] yeah. Boy, you know, my mother loved literature. She had seven kids, and she loved storytelling. And when i was a little kid, my mom i think i was 7 years old, my mom gave me this book and said read this, and itll change your life. It was huck finn. It was, like, he was the bart simpson of his day. He was smarter than all the adults. It was so magical to see kid power. And that brought me into literature. And so ive always loved writing and storytelling. And i got it from my family, i think. As to the, you know, how what made you think you could make a living from this, you know, people raise this question every time theres a new take call device. Steve jobs said at one point that the iphone would be the death of literature, because depth of reading because he said death of reading because he said people dont want to read anymore. Certainly, its changed our Attention Span. There was a story saying that the average Attention Span is now eight seconds, which is less than a goldfish. [laughter] according to the study. [laughter] but, i mean, i wrote this as i was reading the second volume of william churchills biography which is nothing more enjoyable that going really deep into a fantastic book. So the making the living part, look, no matter what the technology is, were a storytelling people. Were not going to lose our love of story, our love of knowledge, our love of literature, our love of new information. And i dont with care if its on a screen or a pixel or appears, you know, on a thing in front of our eyes. I say this to all young writers, if you feel you have a story to tell, dont worry about where it appears, just work on the story itself. Also i have one more thing in that regard, and this is something that most of us we do have a disproportionate amount of irish writers. And ive always heard the saying that the best stories happen to those who can tell them. So [laughter] is there another question . Yeah. I was curious, like, how long did it take you to compile all this his historical background, you know, for this story . And what kind of sources did you use . So i used mostly firsthand sources, and the information on meagher happens to be in some of the greatest places in the world. So you start in ireland, and you go spend time in the Wonderful National library of ireland, dublin, where all the papers are from the young island rebels. Theyre notes they wrote when they were in captivity, poems, the newspaper that was the paper for the rebels and contemporaneous accounts of what it was like while they were giving their speeches and people were dying in the streets. I used some of the illustrations from those papers in my book of the starving. They also had their houses torn down during the famine as well pause they couldnt pay the rent. Because they couldnt pay the rent. Then you go to waterford, which is a beautiful town on the river, i recommend it. You can go into meaghers house, climb the hills where he climbed. They just named the longest suspension bridge in ireland for Thomas Francis meagher. He wants to start the revolution, but his fathers like, no, youll hang. And hes sort of torn. And the masses of waterford say we wont let them cross the bridge, and you feel that power. Then you go to tasmania which, by the way, is one of the prettiest places on earthment it really is beautiful. Its too bad the brits tried to make a penitentiary out of a continent. To this day, by the way, if you live in australia or tasmania, you can trace your ancestry to the convict stain is a badge of honor. You know that . Yes, i find that too. So then you come to new york, and theres this fabulous research at the americanirish historical society, at the new York City Tenement Museum which you can understand what it was like to be in one of those tenements. A lot of papers there. Then you walk the Civil War Battlefields which, as an american, i think every person should do. I had never done it. Its so so profoundly moving. And the National Park service, lets give them credit. They do a great job of keeping those american markers intact. So i walked the wall up to marys heights. And you see, my god, these guys were totally exposed. There was no way for them to go. Theres formations just getting mowed down by industrial strength or artillery and musketly. And then you go to antithem and this awful, awful place where 23,000 people died, and the library of congress has all the civil war correspondence. Most of its on line now so you can read meaghers battle reports in that. Finally, you end up in virginia city, montana, which isnt quite a ghost town yet. You can get a bison burger and a beer [laughter] and theres a great library, and they were very helpful, and theres a handful of folks that lead tours. In the summer it comes to life as a tourism place. And the Montana Historical society, thank god for them. Because meagher was their governor. They have this wonderful research. So my research is i like to go to the places so i can understand the texture. [inaudible] i mean, that took a couple years. Once i have the material, im a fairly quick writer. But i, i do all my own research because i think you find these great discoveries by going down these little warrens. I want to thank you all for coming. Im going to within this up. Ill wrap this up. Ill start with a plug for one of my favorite fiction writers, richard flanagan. I want to thank you for attending, thank tim for a terrific [applause] and i hope you all become friends of the festival and, please, ill ask you to, please, vacate the room because theres another panel coming in the here. You can meet timothy out at the booksigning area. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] youre watching booktv on cspan2, television for serious readers. Heres a look at whats on prime time tonight. We kick off the evening at 7 15 p. M. Eastern with Katherine Ross argument that students First Amendment rights are not respected. Then at 9, the 2016 Guggenheim Lehrman prize in military history is awarded. And on after words at 10 p. M. Eastern, former u. S. Civil Rights Commission chair Mary Frances Berry discusses voter right, corruption and fraud. We finish up at 11 with a tour of the Folger Shakespeare library. In two weeks booktv will be live from the library with a program on the 400th anniversary of William Shakespeares death. That all happens tonight on cspan2s booktv. On sunday, april 3rd, booktv is live with author and publisher of forbes magazine, steve forbes, on in depth. Mr. Forbes has authored many books which focus on politics and economics. In his most recent book, reviving america, he argues for a replacement of the current tack code and a repeal of the Affordable Care act. Other recent titles include power, ambition, glory, which compares great leaders of the ancient world with modern Business Leaders and how capitalism will save us why free people and free markets are the best answer in todays economy. In 2014 mr. Forbes appeared on booktv discussing his book, money. The topic of money is straight forward and simple even though its shroud inside a lot of jargon, a lot of equations. The idea of money is very basic. Weve gotten away from it, and our policymakers today know less about money, monetary policy, than they did a hundred years ago. And since the early 1970s, even though weve had booming decades in the 80s and 90s, overall our growth rates since we went off the Bretton Woods system, the old gold standard, in 1971, the u. S. Average growth rates are less than they were before 1971. And if wed maintained the growth rates that we had for 180 years up to 1971, if wed maintained those growth rates after 1971, on average, the u. S. Economy today would be 50 larger than it is now. Steve forbes live on booktvs in depth sunday, april 3rd, noon to 3 p. M. Eastern. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon. My name is juan carlos diago from catos center for global liberty and prosperity