Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Heathen School 20140420

Then ill do a little reading from the book, a certain passage or two from the book to give you a sense of the flavor of whats between these coffers. And covers, and maybe at the very end ill say a little bit about what drew me to the project in the first place and why i think it was worth spending quite a few years working on. It might even be worth reading a book about. How i got to the project. It was by total chance, serendipity. I have an old friend who has a house in the town of cornwall not too far from here, and one day in the mid 90s this was quite a while back my friend invited my wife and myself down for dinner. And as i recall it, we were standing around in the it was a summer evening, we were standing around outside with gin and tonics in our hands, i think, and one of the neighbors who was also a dinner guest started to tell us a little, what he called a piece of local history. He said, you know, its just a piece of local history, but im a history guy, so maybe i would be interested. And he began to unfold this story to the tune of maybe just a few minutes, i think. But right away i was transfixed by the story. I was so, so intrigued, fascinated really that as i recall, i couldnt sleep that night. I got up first thing the next morning and drove straight to yale and went into our library there to see, really to see if anything must be had been written about this, how much was known about story beyond the locale of cornwall. The answer was not very much. It was mentioned here and there, and there are maybe a couple of books where it attires to the tune of appears to the tune of 1015 pages maybe. But there was no full scale treatment, and i decided pretty fast that i would like to make a serious commitment to it as a book project. Now, this is 20 years in time has passed. It sort of amazes me to realize this, which is to say that it was not an easy project to do. For one thing, i was leaping out of what had up to that point really been my period of history. Id made my way for many years as a clone colonialist, a historian of the colonial period, and this story is set in the early 19th century, so i really had to feel my way into a new territory. There were also a couple of other books i wrote along the way. But i never, i never let go of this one, and finally have gotten to the point of finishing it off. But as i say, if i hadnt gone to my friends house that night, this book wouldnt be here. And a lot would be different. It happens that way sometimes. In fact, ive had other prompts that have projects that have more or less by chance sort of come my way, but this was the most extreme case of serendipity in historical writing at least for me. Okay. Well, heres my thumbnail of the story that sort of forms the heart of the book. The background, the context in some broad sense is a pattern, a kind of National Ethos you might say of expansiveness in the opening years of the is 19th century. The newlyindependent United States began around then to reach out in a major way to the rest of the world in commerce, in its political ambitions, in its go ahead spirit as they said at the time. And perhaps the acme, the epitome of this outreach was the china trailed, a rapid growth trade, a rapid growth of trade with the far east centering in the chinese city of canton. Dozens and dozen of ships heading that way and returning loaded with cargoes of tea and silks and many other chinamade items on which americans of that era placed an increasingly high premium. Well, travel to china for all these trade ships typically involved a midocean stopover in the hawaiian islands, a chance, in short, to rest and sort of restock for the rest of the journey. And it also might lead to some reshuffling of personnel with a few Young Hawaiian men coming onboard one or another of these ships as crew. And these hawaiians might then go wherever the trade ships took them and some might eventually land in one or another part of the United States, mostly, i think, in new england. Fast forward now to what is the first major scene or you might say or first act in my book. Its an autumn day in the rare 1809. The setting is yale college where students are passing in and out on their way, i suppose, to class. I myself have seen the same kind of thing 200 years later many, many times. Anyway, on this particular morning theres something a little different. A young man who clearly doesnt belong there, hes darkskinned, sort of exotic looking, and hes wearing ragged sailor clothes is sitting off to one side quietly weeping. And presently the yale students notice him and feel concerned and ask him the reason for his apparent disdress. Distress. And he replies, because nobody gives me learning. Hes referring, of course, to the fact that all of them are getting lots of good learning, and he isnt. And this comment is sure to get their attention. Hes a hawaiian, a kind of castoff from the china trade in which hes worked for the last, at least the last previous two years as crew. He had been dropped off in new haven and then found his way to the steps of yale. His name is [inaudible] thats his hawaiian surname, and at some point, i think while he was working alongside american sailors, hes taken a given name, henry. Okay. Henry was then quickly take under the wing of a number of yale students responding to his initial complaint about not having learning. They began to give him language lessons, english language lessons, and at the same time to instruct him in the essentials of religious faith, the christian faith. Yale was at that time a very religious place. Im not sure one could say the same thing about it today. For sure, a lot has changed. Well, one thing leads to another. The education and conversion of henry becomes a kind of, one almost could say campuswide. Im exaggerating a bit perhaps, but i do think his presence was widely acknowledgeed on campus, so much so, in fact, that he was soon taken into the household of the College President who was a protestant minister of great eminence named reverend Timothy Dwight. Yale today has a Residential College named after timothy 2008 which i myself am a faculty fellow. Dwight, the students and also a fair number of outsiders who come to have a look at this rather extraordinary scene all get involved with henry, and he begins to make Good Progress both in learning english and in his spiritual condition as well. And after some months, its decided that he should go elsewhere to continue the same process. Hes taken for a time to an academy, a secondary school in massachusetts, and hes sort of passed around among different ministers households where he visits for weeks or sometimes months at a stretch. Reports of his arrival and progress are published in religious newspapers and journals and, in fact, hes on his way to what almost could be called a kind of celebrity status. A lot of people knew about it. If we could have dropped down in new haven in 1810, 11, 12 or is i suspect even hartford be, you would have found people who knee about henry. Knew about henry. And his story, his achievements, as it were, lead people to wonder whether something similar might be done for others like him, other quoteunquote heathen people in various farflung parts of the world who, like him, lack education, lack, quote, civilized ways of living, and above all, lack the blessings of christian faith. In short, henry becomes the germ, the seed of a powerful new missionary idea. As it all plays out, president dwight and other toplevel ministers nearby hatch a plan to set up a special school for heathen youth at which a henrylike transformation can be achieved on a much wider scale. It will have the official name of the Foreign Mission school, although informally it quickly gets dubbed the heathen school. Its location will be this the town of cornwall, connecticut, a principal is appointed and some additional staff as well, buildings are acquired. And in the spring of 1817, it opens for business. There are about a dozen students in the first group, several hawaiians including henry. Hes sort of the star. Also a couple of young men from india, a native american and also a couple of white new englanders who are themselves training to be missionaries overseas and feel that this sort of closeup contact with some heathens would be useful as part of their training. Soon there will be quite a few more students or scholars as they typically refer to them. Some additional hawaiians, some other pacific islanders, several from china, a few european jews, a couple of greeks that surprised me a little. Im of greek extraction, but in those days i depress greeks were i guess greeks were considered to be heathen. Why not . [laughter] and as time passed too, there was a growing firm concern growing number of american i could januaries. In indians. In all, i think about 15 different indian tribal groups would eventually be represented at the school. I got to skip lightly over the actual workings of the school, but i want to emphasize in fact, it would be hard to overem size, the sweeping overemphasize the intenselyheld hopes and ambitions that underlay this whole project. The idea was that the graduates would return to their various homelands and start similar projects there; schools and churches that would in turn promote the civilizing, quoteunquote, and the christian conversion of their own people. In short, there was a kind of, there was a kind of Multiplier Effect at the heart of this scheme. If all went well, and they were very explicit about this, if all went well, the entire with world would be saved and that was the keyword in every important way saved in the shortest time imaginable. One particular happening in the schools first year should be mentioned. Henry, who at this point was a kind of center piece of the whole thing, henry took sick within a relatively short time after the school owned. He had a case opened. He had a case of typhus. And after a period of some weeks, he died. And the school sponsors and leaders then sensed the chance to sort of construe his passing as a kind of martyrs death. Almost at once one of his teachers began to write his biography which would subsequently be published under the title the memoirs of henri. It was a book that became pretty much a national or even an international bestseller. You can still find copies around. In fact, some years ago i found one of, a copy of one of the very first editions in a secondhand bookstore in cambridge. So it says something i think there were about 12 different editions of it that were published through the whole span of the 19th century. And quite well, parking lotly in response partly in response to the memoirs interest in the school and support for the school shot up as measured in fundraising, in visits by outsiders. The school became a big sort of tourist attraction. In newspaper pub lis deand publicity and so on. All the while the leaders of the school were putting out a lot of very favorable pr, insisting that everything was going splendidly and exactly according to plan. Thats what they said. In fact, i think this was quite far from the reality. There were Serious Problems right from the start, problems on the academic side. How do you teach, you know, young people who are so various in their backgrounds and levels of education to begin with . Problems also of discipline; quite a few students actually had to be expelled for one or another kind of misconduct. But at least for a time to, several years, they managed to maintain a good public reputation. Then something happened that was not part of the plan. Can you guess . Romance developed between some of the heathen students and the fair young women of cornwall. As i say, not part of the plan. I imagine them thinking or saying, you know, its one thing we should bring you here and educate you and convert you and so on and quite another thing that you should romance our daughters. The first such case involved a young cherokee man named john ridge and the 16yearold daughter of the schools steward. She was named Sarah Northrup. Ill give some details about these two when i do a reading from the book in a few more minutes. For now ill just say that when their involvement came out, there was a big uproar and controversy first locally in and around cornwall, and then as the news spread well out across the state, extending even to other parts of the country. Intermarriage between people of different race and color was simply unacceptable to, it was anathema to, i think, a great majority of americans of that time. Eventually, john ridge and Sarah Northrup did marry in spite of the uproar and went off to johns home in the Cherokee Nation. What is now north georgia. The school tried to tamp down public feelings by, in effect, claiming that it was a onetime thing and promising that it would never happen again. But within scarcely a year later, it did happen again. Another cherokee student he was named elias and a Young Cornwall woman named harriet gold became engaged and then got married. So the previous controversy was renewed and, if anything, it was intensified with lots of impassioned rhetoric, threats to destroy the school buildings. A night when an angry crowd gathered on the town green and burned elias and harriet in effigy and so forth and so on. With the result that the this second pair of intermarriage iowa yet and elias left town as quickly as possible and like the first pair, went off to the Cherokee Nation. By now the school was doomed. Public feeling was fully aroused against it, and its leaders some of whom actually did not oppose intermarriage but felt obliged to sort of bend with the wind became concerned that its continuance might put the entire missionary movement at risk. So they shut the school down for good. It had lasted just a bit less than a decade. And they did their best, i think, to suppress public memory of it. Im running out of time for this piece of my presentation, but theres a kind of tail end of the story as i tell it in the book that i want at least to mention. John ridge and elias when they got home to the cherokees quickly became leaders of their nation. And this is where what you might call the little story of the heathen school intersects with a much bigger story of National Growth and development. Were now at this point in the 1830s, and the federal government is pressing the cherokees along with other indians of the lower south to accept removal from their traditional homelands and relocation much farther to the west in what is today oklahoma. I imagine you know the headlines of this. Theres a famous Supreme Court case which seems to favor the cherokees by prohibiting removal, saying that would be illegal and unconstitutional. But then the administration of Andrew Jackson refuses to follow suit, and in due course removal, forced removal happens. This is what history knows as the kerr key trail of tears cherokee trail of tears. Well, as leaders of their nation, ridge and elias were at the center of the whole removal controversy. At first and for some years thereafter, they led the opposition to removal going back and forth all the time to washington negotiating with top federal officials, including president jackson himself, in defense of cherokee interests and of the cherokee wish to remain where they were. But at a certain point, these two flipped and became leaders of a minority faction that accepted the idea of removal, or as they preferred to call it, emigration. From then on they negotiated with the feds on a treaty to that effect in what came to be called the treaty of [inaudible] sponsored by the ridge elias group and accepting removal on behalf of all the cherokees was actually signed in elias living room. This made them in the eyes of the majority of their fellow cherokees nothing less than traitors. And when the removal process had been completed and the nation was fully relocated in oklahoma, ridge and elias were both assassinated on the same morning, june 22, 1839, by their tribal opponents. This was a sensational event reported across the country, and it led to decades of reprisals ask revenge killings and revenge killings within the Cherokee Nation. And to this day, ridge and elias are remembered with bitterness by many cherokees. Final question why did these two men flip on the removal question . Well, what they said for public consumption was that there was no hope if the cherokees tried to remain p where they were. They were just vastly outmatched by the federal government and all the people, the white people of the lower south who would insist on nothing less than removal. However, i think there was something more, something they expressed only privately and indirectly. In effect, when jackson refused to enforce the crucial Supreme Court decision, they felt betrayed. Betrayed on behalf of all cherokees, but also with a kind of personal resonance reaching back to their experience years before in cornwall at the heathen school. There, too, they had been betrayed having been at first and for some years very much approved and admired as star students, they were then reviled and cast out when they fell in love with women in the White Community and crossed the race line, the indelible race line. Faced with what the Jackson Administration had thrown against them, they felt weve seen this script before. We know where it leads. Best we should lead our people as far away as possible from such hypocrisy and naked aggression. As i say, thats where the little story and the big story intersect with tragic results. There were other results of the heathen school story as well. For one thing the Protestant Missionary movement as a whole essentially reversed strategy, concluding that it would do better from here on if it centered its Work Overseas by beginning to where the heathen actually lived instead of bringing them here to america where potentially explosive issues of race might once again interfere. Thats the end of my thumbnail. So now if you will ip dulling me indulge me, ill read a little bit from the book. Id like to read a section thats, basically, about the first of courtships, ridge and Sarah Northrup. Let me just kind of interrupt myself here for a minute to point out, i brought along a kind of prop. In the mid 1820s when ridge was already still a young man, but already kind of leading the nation, his nation, he sat for a portrait in washington by a famous painter, a painter who was famous especially for painting indian chiefs named charles burg king. Its a magnificent portrait. Right now its hanging in an exhibition in arkansas at the crystal bridges museum. Anyway, so there was this wonderful portrait, and it went into a kind of gallery, a kind of socalled indian gallery that Charles Kenney had in washington. And then a lot of prints were made from the portrait, and they were published in books and so forth and so on. I was very thrilled when just a few weeks ago, maybe a couple months i discovered that one of the early prints was coming up for auction at a locals candidate auction. I rushed over there, and i was able to get this. This was in 1838 as its dated and color print of ridge. And, well, as i say, it was very exciting for me to get it. In many ways, i have to sort of confess ridge is my hero in this story. I think he was, he acted in a necessary and noble part, although, of course, many cherokee people wouldnt agree with me. Anyway, back to the story and to the book. Let me explain a little more about the context. Ridge from an early age had been ill. He suffered from what today called scoffula, i think it was a kind of glandular disease which often left him quite limp and, i the think, full of aches and pains and sometimes for some periods kind of disabled him. And this happened while he was at the school. He got a kind of burst of this illness, this chronic illness he had. Ask what they did and what they did with scholar students who were ill is they brought them into the stewards house. There was a kind of sick room there, i think. And they cared for them, they gave them the best they could in the way of medical care. So ridge was wrought into the house brought into the house, and thats where he encountered and began to get involved with the stewards daughter, Sarah Northrup. Okay, here we go. At some point johns old illness recurred, and he was confined to sick bed in the stewards house. Referring to december 1620, herman 1820, tag ets reports to the american board of commissioners for Foreign Missions made regular reference to, quote, his unhappy situation. Though, quote, improved very much in his conduct and in his learning and now seriously disposed toward matters of faith, he has from a child been feeble, and his complaints have rather increased of late. In april 21 he continues to be ill. In june, quote, he is in a very feeble state of health. In july, quote, he continues to be very much out of health. In the latter month, kelloggs general store in the town, it was a sort of familyrun shop supplying all kinds of things to the towns folk, recorded a sale to the Foreign Mission school, quote, per mr. Northrup one pair of crutches. Surely these were meant for john. Throughout the spring and early summer, he was under the care of cornwalls local physician, dr. Samuel gold. However, in mid july he was sent for several weeks to new haven to receive a more specialized form of treatment. Dagget, meanwhile, repeatedly urged his return home to his own family, an idea that john himself resisted. Quote he wishes much to stay and pursue his studies. This president autumn when in the autumn, when reports of johns worsening condition reached the cherokee country, major ridge who was johns father, a very powerful cherokee chief can major ridge decided to undertake the long journey to cornwall. His arrival there in mid october was a local sensation. His dress, including, quote, a coat trimmed with gold lace and white top boots, his conveyance, splendid carriage that ever entered the town and his commanding personal presence, quote, a tall and athletic form and noble bearing made deepest possible imparisian. He lodged in the town impression. He lodged in the town inn and stayed for a full two weeks. He called on lymon beecher who was like Timothy Dwight, a very famous and eminent protestant minister, and he conversed at length with the famous preacher whose daughter, katherine beecher, again, described him as, quote, one of the princes of the forest. Perhaps his son was present to seven as interpreter. He was cordially received in various cornwall households including that of dr. Gold. Decades later the doctors son would write that, quote no memory of my boyhood is clearer than that of a visit to my home in my sixth year of john ridge and his father, major ridge, the cherokee chief in the uniform of a u. S. Officer, unquote. The memory also included this quote where am i . Oh. My father exchanged presents with him, giving him a small telescope and receiving in turn from him an indian pipe carved if black stone, unquote. The same pipe nearly threepeat in three feet in length, its surface burnished with the passage of time, hangs today enclosed in a glass casement on the living room wall of the home of a gold descendant. This pipe once belong today major ridge, the distinguished chief of the Cherokee Nation. It was presented to s. W. Gold in 1820 with a the assurance of the giver that it had often been smoked in council, unquote. It was generally expected that john ridge would return home with his father, but when the time came, he remained in cornwall. According to some accounts, he was still too, quote, feeble to risk travel, but several months later dagget declared he chose to stay and still does. He chose to stay and still does. Why . Was it really because of his illness . Or was Something Else holding him fast to cornwall, to the school, to the stewards household in which he would remain a patient for about two years . Enter sarah. The story of their courtship was remembered decades later by a woman with a personal connection to all those involved. Her account, as dictated to her own daughter, remains the fullest we have. Though impossible to verify in every detail, it does have the feel of authenticity. It centers on one particular occasion and begins thus. Mrs. Northrup had so much work and care that she would send her daughter, sarah, into johns room to take care of him. For a time johns condition seemed to improve, so much so that dr. Gold said to mrs. Northrup i do not think it best to give him any more medicine, but he had some deep trouble, and you must find out what it is. On ap afternoon when sarah op an afternoon when sarah had left the house, mrs. Northrup went in to sit with john. She said to him, john, you have some trouble, ask you must tell me. You know you have no mother here, only me, and you have always confided in me as you would your own mother. He started up in wild amazement and said i got trouble . No. She replied, i cannot leave until you tell me all. John, i do not want to tell you. Mrs. Northrup, you must tell me. John, well, if you must know, i love your sarah. Mrs. Northrup, you must not. John, i know it, and that is the trouble. Mrs. Northrup, have you ever mentioned it to her . John, no, we have not said one word to each other. I dare not. But how could i help loving her when she has taken such good care of me these two years . When sarah returned home that evening, her mother was waiting. Mrs. Northrup, sarah, do you love john ridge . Sarah, yes, i do love john. At that, quote, mrs. Northrup saw there was trouble this the camp. [laughter] the northrups decided that swift action was essential to prevent further dalliance between the two young sweethearts. They must send their daughter away. Thus, shortly thereafter mr. Northrup took sarah to her grandparents, dr. Joel and mrs. Mabel sarah, in new haven and told them why and what he had brought her for. He wished hem to make parties them to make parties and introduce her to other gentlemen and try in every way to get her mind off john ridge. Sarah would have none of it. She stayed three months but, quote, would take no notice of any gentleman or any company. She had no appetite for food, lost fresh, and they thought she soon would be a victim of consumption. Understandably, her grandparents grew alarmed about her. There was nothing to do but send her home. There were difficulties, too, on johns side. Major ridge and his wife, susana, expected their son to take a wife there within the nation, preferably a chiefs daughter. Thus, when john wrote home of his wish to marry sarah, they were surprised and dismayed. Susana consulted with one of the resident missionaries who warned that a white woman might feel superior to, quote, the common cherokees, quote, and that a her son would be more useful to his people were he connected with them by marriage. She then had a letter sent to john objecting strongly to his intentions, but when he relied by reaffirming his love for sarah, his parents were persuaded to yield. It was clear now that tear feelings could not their feelings could not be denied. Quote, john was dying for sarah, and sarah was dying for john. Sarahs parents weighed the possibilities and formed a new plan. Mrs. Northrup told john to go home and stay two years, and if he could come back without his crutches, he might marry sara. Sarah. Im going to skip a couple of pages here and go to the time they actually became, they got married. He did come back after two years. Let me see. As another new year approached, johns symptoms still back at this point in the story back this the Cherokee Nation johns symptoms lessened enough to permit his return north to his intended bride. He set out in mid december and reached cornwall a month later. Evidently, sarahs parents agreed that the terms of their previous tiplation had been met. Though stipulation had been met. John could wall walk without crutches. In short order, the couples intentions were published following long established practice in such matters. Now at last what some had called the secret thing was fully exposed, and local reaction began to build. But john and sarah were moving fast. On january 27, 1824, their marriage was formalized at a small gathering in the northrups home. Reverend timothy stone who was one of the agents, sponsors of the Mission School and who was an obvious choice to perform the ceremony declined, apparently to protect his own and the calls reputation. And the schools reputation. His colleague, reverend walter smith, officiated instead. Though set to return to the Cherokee Nation, the newlyweds remained in cornwall for some days longer. As was customary in that era, they would visit and be visited by friends and relations in a kind of ritual acknowledgment of their married estate. According to the report of a local resident written several months after the fact, quote on the next sabbath morning, colonel gold, a deacon in the church, called upon ridge and his lady and conducted them to the Meeting House and seated them with his family, unquote. Presumably, this was intended as a sign of, as a public sign of personal respect, all the more so as it meant moving ridge from his former position on the scholars bench to the deacons pew at the front of the church. Additional gestures would follow. Thus, quote. Ridge and his lady were invited to visit at captain miles a wealthy farmer in the neighborhood, together with the aforesaid deacon gold and his lady. There they were, quote, treated with marked attention which has hitherto been given to the members of the Foreign Mission school by some of the inhabitants of this vicinity. This, however, seems to have kindled resentment. The writer described it as, quote. One of the causes of the disgraceful affair which in the coming months would bring so much excitement and disgust throughout our country. Indeed, his comment that some this corp. Wall were already disleadsed with the attention displeased with the attention frequently lavished on the scholars. Whatever its source, john and sarah soon faced the highest indignation, as another report said. Years later they would describe to a friend how, quote the papers proclaimed it, their wedding, as an outrage, and the preachers denounced it in the pulpit. The news, quote, flew on the wind from cornwall to the surrounding towns to the rest of the state and beyond. Threats were made by, quote, the best and most respectable men to drive the natives from the country and heap indignity on the clergy engaged, unquote. According to a gentleman from litchfield, quote, 50 men had signed an instrument in writing promising to go in a body to cornwall and not return until they had entirely demolished the building in which the school was kept, unquote. Sarahs parents felt obliged to accompany the couple on their way out of town, lest they become targets of attack. Even so, john, quote, came near to being mobbed, unquote. At subsequent stops as they traveled by stagecoach on the route south, they were met by with, quote, excited throngs denouncing ridge for taking away a white girl, unquote. He, for his part, readily acknowledged having entered the white world and, quote, plucked one of its fairest flowers, unquote. But what of it . He was not, he insisted, quote, her inferior inty respect. In any respect. As more time passed, the tempest they left behind in cornwall would only strengthen. According to the longtime editor of nearby litchfields paper the american eagle, quote, no white man in town approved of that transaction except for their clergymen and two other families, unquote. Recriminations were hurled about, most of them centering on the brides parents. It was said that her mother had conspired to promote the match, that wedding had been performed in secret so as to deceive the public, even that her father innocent of public involvement quote, had left the family and has gone off it is not known where. One account allegedly from a friend and eyewitness confirmed the fathers presence at the ceremony but claimed that he, quote, felt like death, felt dreadfully. Newspapers throughout connecticut and, quote, in nine or ten other states besides, became channels for vehement fulmination. The litchfield editor was an especially harsh critic. In issue after issue, he decried, quote the affliction, mortification and disgrace of the young woman who throwing herself into the arms of an indian has thus made herself a squaw. For many readers that word carried a particularly invidious con nation of connotation of sort of sexualized ugliness. He linked what he called this criminal connection with the reigning missionary spirit and more particularly with the readiness of the Cornwall School to embrace intermarriage as, quote, a new kind of missionary machinery for christianizing the savages. It was, he declared, one of their objects to break down all objections of color and make our daughters become nursing mothers to a race of mulattos. Another local newspaper, the litchfield gazette, stated simply the interparrying with the indians intermarrying with the indians and blacks of the missionary school is not a subject of irony. To have sarah be taken into the wilderness among savages must, indeed, be a heartrending pang. Other posers were inclined to blame the participants directly. Quote some said that the girl ought to be publicly whipped, the indian hung and the mother drowned. Meanwhile, two Church Leaders were reportedly about to bring reverend smith to trial for performing that marriage. Indeed, there was widespread expectation of more and worse to come. According to press accounts, quote foreign scholars have been seen to walk arm in arm with both married and unmarried ladies from the town. Some of the stories passed around seem truly scandalous. One recounted a nighttime gathering at which, quote cherokees and choctaws were snugly seated with the ladies in the parlor. A gentleman informs us through the marriages were supposed to be in treaty. The principle of intermarriage should be allowed to stand quote doesnt not promise to hundreds of other respectable families in this county a similar bitter and heart rendering hang that will cease only with death. Hundreds of other families. The possibilities were dire and limitless. Im going to stop there. I could go on and on but you get the point. Let me just say finally a few words about what i think is the meaning, the voice of this story. Why i think i was so drawn to it that night when i heard about it at my friends house. A couple of ways which i think it connects directly to truly big themes in American History and culture, one is what we still refer to as american exceptionalism. The idea this is an exceptional country made up of Exceptional People with an exceptional responsibility and opportunity to go out and improve the rest of the world. That idea has been present virtually since the first settlers stepped off the boat, im thinking of John Winthrop in boston, his famous speech or sermon in which he ordered, he suggested that this new colony should be a kind of light to the rest of the world, sitting on a hill as he said. I think that id has continued. Interestingly, enough to me, in the last year or two that phrase has come back into the Public Discourse quite a bit. So anyway, i think that american exceptionalism sort of frames the heathen school story. Another major theme in aspect in American History and culture is of course diversity. Many different people, human difference, which i think has been central to the countrys history again from the beginning when the colonial period began and got underway, and you had three different major population streams, europeans, native americans and africans sort of converging in this country. This was a totally without precedent in world history. Antigen to the present day the theme of diversity, the mixing of many kinds of differences has been central to our culture and our history and to our lives. And, obviously, too, the heathen School Speaks of that. This is a story of failure. They are the connection to the larger scene is really not so much the history as such, but the way we understand our history. We dont think, we dont like to think much about failure. American history is supposed to be a Success Story. Most history books are not on failures, and yet i think its important that we can learn from failure. There have been plenty of them in American History. I was actually sort of looking for a chance to write about something, another sort of fashion tips on all three counts, i dont know if i said this but the very night i heard this story, all three accounts, the story spoke to me and set me off on a long process which culminates with my book. Thats it. Im glad to take questions and comments. [applause] remember you have to have a microphone. Heres one right here. Folks like Timothy Dwight must have known about the crusades. In their attempt indeterminate save the world, could they not have known the difficulty of saving islam . You know, they were very confident of their own special qualities as religious leaders. Im just making this up because i dont ever remember seeing any comment by anyone involved in this story about the crusades. But my strong supposition would be that they would have looked back on the crusades and said those catholics. And basically they hated catholics. So they were going to do it a different way and much better. I think i was astonished, i guess i would say the confidence, sometimes they comes across as arrogance. But anyway, the conference they had in this grand idea that suddenly dropped into the world. One back there. Thank you for your presentation. It was an excellent presentation. I had one concern about john junior. You mention he was a hero. Wasnt john rawls really the leader of the Cherokee Nation, and didnt the ridges, werent they really the wealthier elements . To my understanding they had, they possess slaves and really were a wealthier element in the Cherokee Nation. And so i was concerned about whether they really sold out the tribes. Some charities as we now escaped into the hills. Could you elaborate on that concept . First of all, i used the word hero. Thats my own feeling. So, john ridge, his father, major ridge is part of the story. Major leadership figures to john ross was also a major leadership figure. For a while they were all working together. They were all, by the way, i think extreme wealthy in relation to other charities. Both john ridge and major ridge, his father owned slaves and essentially were plantation owners. I think ross was, too. Im not totally sure about i think he was a wealthy man and probably a slaveowner. Many top level cherokee. This is a great irony, of course people event discriminated against, cornwall and so on now with themselves holding other people of color in bondage. But as i say, they started for usually a working together. Ross and ridge would go to washington, talked to jackson and others, but then they came this moment when ridge decided to change his stance. This apparently occurred after a particular meeting that ridge had with jackson. It was now clear the Jackson Administration wasnt proposing to really enforce the decision of the supporting court. Ridge went to see him and came out. Theres a firsthand account of the meeting, but some reports say that ridge seems very depressed afterwards and felt this isnt going to work. In my opinion, you know, the reason i admire him is i dont think there was any choice. I think he made the necessary and in a sense no bull choice. He knew and he said he expected he might very well lose his life as a result of changing his position. Ross remain on the other side. The two of them from there on became intense opponents and adversaries. Although theres no reason to think that john ross personally was involved in the plan that led to the assassination of these people, these are the people, its clear that it was his followers. Ridge end up ross is the principal chief at that point of the nation and continues to be the principal chief for a while i believe. But whats really another aspect of it its really sad and tragic is that the charities were divided for generations afterwards. They didnt even have a marker on john ridge is great or one energy because they thought the tomb would be desperate if it was known to be the grave of the leader of the socalled treaty party. I think also this book made the point that one of the reasons that ridge changed his position was that he felt that if he stayed, their culture would be hurt by the White Community. Exactly. Im glad you brought that up. It was the language used like that in private communications to friends and colleagues that led me to believe that there is or was finally a connection. Theres a very very moral kind of position that were surrounded by these corrupt and hypocritical white people. They are sort of, they are contaminating our own lives and culture. They are turning us into drunkards. And he said what we can never accept is the possibility of about the nation with such bad people. Such and such an irony there. He had a amalgamated himself, but now it was reversed. He didnt want to be a monogamy the. He didnt want the charities to be inaugurated with the white folks, white culture. Amalgamated. Thank you to much for pulling together all of the material so that have a source ago to do know the story in more depth. Would you share with us the story of your research and what were your sources . Where did you find materials . Sure. It was a winding trail, the research trail. Literally in the first few months it started right across from my office at yale because of starting library has a large collection of family papers, specially from the family of harriet gold. That family, i say this in the talk, but that family was torn apart by her decision to marry. All of her siblings initially were bitterly upset and angry at her. In fact, when they burned her effigy on the town green, it was her brother actually lit the match to the fire. So all of that was spelled out in resources that are at your mac and most of that has been published since i started my research in a little book, its an edited volume of the family letters to i think it was called to marry an indian. There was that peace. Then i realized i would need to consult the records of the school and the leaders of the school. That stuff is all at harvard so i spent a lot of time up at harvard. These are sort of as a work the into the records. And they are very interesting and complicated because, on the one hand they are so anxious to preserve the good reputation of the school. They really are pr practitioners, almost in a modern sense. But on the other hand, you dont have to read very far between the lines to see that there was trouble all over the place with what they were trying to do, sort of on the ground. I alluded to that at least in passing. Anyway, i had to go through, i went to all that stuff. And then theres a lot of stuff scattered around a local historical societies of one sort or another, some stuff on cornwall and others in surrounding towns. The most exciting part of my research in a way was when i sort of got the notion of two years ago, not so long ago, and ive done all of the research i just described but maybe i should go to hawaii. Hawaii, what could be better . Most of my research on my other books i went as far as worcester. [laughter] so anyway, i didnt really know quite, why i was going to hire a wide why was going to why but i went. It was a great trip. I was a or three weeks. It was in the documents i found in the Museum Library in honolulu. But what was particularly exciting for me was to go to the big island where it was really a process to find out exactly, he had grown up on a Little Village on the west coast of the big island, which doesnt exist anymore. The village is gone. I was able to contact some of his descendents, a collateral line because he had no children but he never married and had children. But yet brothers and sisters so the are a collateral descendents who very much remember in fact even the mention of his name to most people made in hawaii, they know who he was. They call him the First Hawaiian christian. He is kind of famous. Anyway, one thing led to another. I eventually was able to go to the slow beach on the southwest side of the big island which had been sight of his village. It was need to be standing in his footsteps as a worker at what another place 50 years or so miles to the north still on the coast were after, it is anything about is some history but his parents were killed when his but 10 or 11. It was a series of highs and wars that were going on, civil wars. They were on the losing side as far as i could tell so he was orphaned and he was kind of farmed out to an uncle who was quote a pagan priest as it was later said, and he himself was being trained for the priesthood. Anyway, i was able to go and see the platform on which the temple where he was trained, its still there. Its kind of a tourist site now. I was able to visit his grave site. I didnt mention the fact that in 1993, i think it was, his remains were taken from cornwall where they had been for several years back to hawaii. That was a very momentous event in hawaii. All, my heavens, they described all sorts of proceedings around his return. So i was able to see where he was repaired, one thing and another but it was amazing to me, like no other experience ive had as a researcher. When i got home, as i said i did know what difference it would make to my book, but i just felt i had to write about hawaii and my experience there. So one thing that the book concludes is not one actually but three of what i call interludes, in which i describe my own experience as a researcher going to places that are significant to the story. First hawaiian, then i decided i better go to the Cherokee Nation as well. There are lots of interesting sites to see down there. And, finally, the third was about cornwall itself which i knew already any kind of intimate way. Thats a kind of unusual, the book has an unusual architectu architecture, th these socalled interludes. But they became very much part of not only the process but i felt fine of the story itself. Im interested in your connection with this story with your previous work. About 20 years ago i was a student of ted cook at the university of chicago, and wed rebuild little commonwealth and unredeemed captive. I was impressed with the way you sort of a piece to a notion or extracted the motion at a mostly silent pros of the time, whereas much of the new social history was very bland. The connection with the and redeemed captive and the heathen school seemed obvious with interracial marriage and love and the horror that society felt about that, but i wonder how those compare with the hundreds, the weather 20 years between examples, both in terms of the ideas of schooling for native americans, and also marriage, how marriage have changed over that period to be and what effective relationship from the more contractual relationship marriage that had previously. [laughter] , thats a powerful question, or set of questions really. Well, i suppose if theres a common element, its the whole thing about crossing cultures and racial boundaries. That joins the two. The captive book and this one. To put it differently, too, they are also both about what i spoke of earlier, human difference. I think ive always put for whatever reason been really interested in whats involved in self to other connections and difficulties, or whatever it may be. Even if you go further back to witchcraft or the history of witchcraft, there it was in some sense of other in the socalled witches. So theres that element in common. You mentioned the word emotion. I think from the start, even back in the days when i was writing the socalled new social history, very different from this kind of narrative at least in its basic approach. I was interested in emotion. I always felt historians in fact people get ideas and to go into things. The reason, i put this in the old way, the reason human beings do things, actually i, is much more about the motion than cognition, or at least thats my feeling. I think from the beginning ive been trying to rectify that, whatever, to take a different angle on that. Now, you also mentioned the kind of more specific things like changes in attitudes towards marriage. I think youre right that there was some change, but i also think some historians of the family exaggerates the change. I believe that, i believe the unredeemed captive had a deeply affectionate relationship with her husband, the indian man she married. Who knows if it was contractual . We know very Little Details about that marriage. But ive never thought people married in the glowing arrow colonial era because their parents told them to come to come us got together and made them plan for it, for the younger folks. Im quite convinced the younger folks had plenty to say about it and work operating as much, at least as much for objective reasons. The marriages in the heat in school, deeply affected marriages. Theres no question about it. This wasnt some kind of hankypanky that was going on at cornwall. They were deeply committed to each other. Its very clear not only does she really love him, she sees this as a great opportunity for her to join the missionary cause. Shes going to go down there to the cherokees and shes going to help promote the whole process of saving the world. So theres a kind of coming together of a kind of broad religious purpose with what i think was a deep, personal connection. Im not sure okay. Thank you very much. This is very interesting. I had a couple of questions but i would just have one for now. How did john ridge actually get all the way to the school . How did you . From the Cherokee Nation in the south, what specifically led him to come there mustve been some times with the white culture. Missionaries, mostly from new england, have begun to infiltrate the cherokee territory, about 1810 that started. Previous to that time the cherokees seem to have resisted the whole idea. But because change to my but i think basically they were interested in educational possibilities that might open up if missionaries came. So the missionaries had been there for a while. There was a full missionary School Called the Brainerd School not too far from where john ridge was going up. His parents sent him there to school. He got sick and had to come back, but he came to the notice of mission is that we. He was apparently a very bright student right from the start. Theres one neat story, im not sure i could a member all the details, but going back to his time at the Brainerd School when the teachers one day said look, i think were going too fast with this work, lets slow down and make sure everybody really gets it. And he supposedly threw a fit. He said im doing fine. I want to just go ahead. And the teachers were upset, and they kind of shame him and he repented and apologize, and actually his father heard about it, came running over to dress them down a bit. But the point is that he was marked from the beginning as an especially promising young guy, and the missionaries in the cherokee territory, the Cherokee Nation, they have some idea they were constructing a kind of educational pyramid. They had these lowlevel schools and they had kind of secondary school level, and the brightest of those, they hoped and planned, would go north to cornwall. It wasnt, at first it was a very widely accepted. There were some descriptions of the ridge family and others were very concerned about john going off, especially since he was know to be sort of a sickly boy. But eventually they were persuaded and he went, and quite a few others. In your presentation tonight, you focus on the native american experience, at Cornwall School and intermarriages as one of the practices of the demise of the school. You mentioned it was considered eventually that was more effective to go to the Foreign Countries and train the people there. Which of those two, where the equal, or which was the major factor of the school itself . Thats an important question your that me back up a little. And say that i came to think over many years that actually what was going on was the leaders of the school were growing very disappointed and concerned about how well it really wasnt going. And when the marriage, the integrated crisis referred to came along, they were quite glad. This was the kind of out in front maybe they would have done so anyway, im not sure. Certainly was a big hullabaloo casting a shadow on the whole missionary enterprise. But i get the sense that they really were sort of welcoming this chance. I think you look back on what had just happened and said we cant let this happen again. And, in fact, it was already the case met in some part, at least individual missionaries were going out to india and china, whatever, instead thats what weve got to do as a basic plan from here on. I think thats really pretty clear. First of all thank you very much writing this book. This is a school project. We needed a history of for a very long time and were very fortunate to have you in particular writing the book. I have an enormous number of questions about the school, and just a few things that you know, ill tell you already, you know the story already. I have some familiarity with it. A host of questions, observations occur to me in hearing you because this book extraordinary sequence of events. A few thoughts. Henry opukahaia, hope you have the right pronunciation of the surname, the fact that hes able to be adulated publicly seems to be a sort of fledgling precursor to the way that the captives who never intermingle socially really with the community, the new haven, farmington communities in which they are situated. They are sort of safe, and henry seems to be that way. Of course, the people following him, these very complicated cherokees who are actually embedded in very complicated ways in American Society, but they are still outsiders. They are sort of in and out, its very interesting. And perhaps also disturbing. They are still seen as outsiders by the community, even though they probably tended, largely due to themselves as insiders. Largely viewed. And creating sort of an early preview of the antiabolitionists and antiand automation, outrageous events of the 1830s. And they create that sort of initial stage for that mms animus by modeling very, and a very human and loving way the capacity for people from different groups to American Society come together and to love each other. Of course, thats a model that was rejected. One other observation. There were native africans who were in towns like boston, especially providence, in the 1790s who Samuel Hopkins and others were envisioning as their educating them to go back to africa. And these are very Early Mission efforts and vision for africa by white americans who are being envisioned for deployment similar to what theyre envisioning for the students at the foreign school. Just some observations. And one last but my question is, oh, was it Henry Daggett you said hermann daggett. Hermann daggett. You know if any chance he had a relationship with David Daggett . I dont. David daggett become sober as a defender of the black laws in the 1830s. He was a key judicial figure. Question and then ill be quiet. Are the connections between this school and the schools that are beginning to be formed by people like leonard back in new haven with africanamericans and preparing them to be theres a school, i commend the name of its they are popping up in different places. You are ported to a lot of interesting sort of before and after issues and questions. But i to say i decide not to do in the book. I let other people like you make those connections. I felt, i really want the store to stand by itself. Okay. And you didnt really explore any relationship this emerging school may have had with similar programs are africanamericans even if i had come to think about, for example, the mission, the Foreign Mission school was actually a kind of foundational model for crandall butternut in the reason, i never said any reason for that. My general sense is that the leaders and sponsors of the heathen school, once it was cangonethey just wanted it fors quickly as possible. They knew on some level this was a grand experiment which spectacularly failed. One more quick thing about the failure aspect. I did try quite hard to follow this much is a good, what happened to these guys, the ones who sort of graduated and went back home . Almost without exception they were maybe a couple of exceptions, they just faded back in to where they came from. There were reports of the turned into a bollocks, and i dont know, family domestic abusers and so forth, and they may have even been kind of force. I dont know. I think this gentleman here told me something i didnt know about one of the scholars until now, which was that he apparently was driven mad after his time at the school and had to go to the hartford, what do they call it bucks the hartford retreat, and insane asylum. I wish id known that. I wouldve put that in the story that fits right with all the other stuff. They were trying to radically transform people in ways that were impossible. Professor, the particular scholar who went to the institute of living, or the retreat, was effectively treated quote unquote cured. As you mention in the book, along with four of the other osage, they went to Miami University in ohio. He finished up, he converted, he was trained in industry. He returned to the little osage village, and he was a Success Story in this case because he was going to assist the union mission, which was then under the auspices of the american board, and he was going, evangelize his people. The problem was that while he was in harvard he picked up tuberculosis. It was a particularly rapid onset of consumption and he died within a month of returning. So theres a kind of bitter end here of successfully returning with the education, with the conversion, with a missionary zeal and then dying all too soon. He got cured of his exposure to the missionaries that they went to college and hes able to kind of reach a and go back, and at last he was stricken with illness and died. Sort of a zigzag story. Im just curious, why did they set up a school in cornwall rather than new haven . Because cornwall was thought to be, and i guess actually was, a quite isolated place. They were concerned, you know, that the students might be sort of distracted by the wider american environment. Better to settle it in cornwall where they would be kind of set apart. There was also, cornwall apparently had a reputation of being an extraordinarily highest community. And finally cornwall offered inducements. In fact, several towns sort of did for the matter of locating the school. Cornwall offered a building, a socalled Academy Building which became a schoolhouse. And cornwall also supplied lots of monetary support. One of the things that was most perplexing to me in terms of the Research Documents was the appearance and the missionary and religious press, mushrooming. Lots of these things at the time to the appearance of these long list of donations at the school. Dozens, hundreds at a time. From very ordinary local people, im sending to church, im sending a bushel of potatoes. Im sending 3. All kinds of people represented. I mean, just the sheer sort of humbleness of this bottom layer of support. There was a higher level as well, including some from overseas. There was a swiss baron, a nobleman, i forget, a gentleman who sent large amounts of money. The fame of the school really didnt spread. Not just di through the state of connecticut and not just in the United States, but it was known. Some of the quotes referred our famous of the world and a well. Might be a little bit of that is exaggeration but it was well known. We have a microphone. Wheres the microphone . Then back here. I can talk loudspeakers i dont think this gentleman im wondering if youre familiar with any enter section or interaction with the haystack Foreign Missions movement, which i understand is reputed to be the first. Thats right. Supposedly there was this meeting of the group of williams on uncommonly biased, williams College Students to really discuss and begin to try to act on the whole idea of Foreign Missionary effort. It was in the middle of the meeting there was a big thunderstorm, so the legend goes, and he behind haystack so afterwards it would be remembered as the haystack missionary meeting. Some of the people involved in that movement, in that meeting had a direct connection. One or two of them i think became, i think maybe one of them transferred from Williams Yale and was one of the main contacts there. At the very least at the prayer meeting, has a kind of broad connection. I just want to say that when i was living in cornwall in the 70s and 80s, they really was not very much remembered about the prejudice and so forth. They were very proud that history [inaudible] yes. Also a local historian heard about it. They were very sad when, i dont know what the politics of it was, but they acquiesced or had no control that they were very sad, the remains were taken. Spent there was a time of crisis the way i understand. So the hawaiians, some of them, many of whom claimed to be connected as kids to opukahaia got of the plan and the race quite a lot of money in hawaii, and then they told the cornwall authorities what they were about. And as i heard it, they were sort of vigorous debates within the town, and i believe that michael janet, i only wish he lived to see the book because he helped me so much early on but the way i got the story that he stood up at a crucial meeting him at a crucial moment in the town discussion of all this, the town meeting and said look, weve got to go with the family wishes in this matter. And then he said, a part of opukahaia will always be with us. That apparently carried the day. So opukahaias grave site is still there. Its one of the biggest most impressive gravesites in the cornwall cemetery. If you go to it even today, even though passionate uk should say, i dont know, conscious shells have been brought from hawaiian pilgrimages to visit the graves or other memorabilia. Youre right, i think it was tough on the town to kind of let go because they had incorporate it in their own local history. Sometimes the people that speak loudest are the ones that get remembered. And im wondering how many people did not showed the prejudice about that in cornwall . There are at least two families, some people, parents are finally cared about their kids more than they did the interamerican and allowed them to do it so the must of been a lot of people who did not share in that. It isnt totally clear, just to carry the truth. My own guess, its really not more than that, a majority of cornwall were dead set against it but there was a group of people, and they werent speaking very loudly, especially at first, maybe that this should be all right and affect some of the leaders of the american board of commissioners were terribly upset by the prejudice that was displayed. But they kept it, they had to keep it pretty much to themselves. They were sort of a minority. And then its interesting how, when the debate of the controversy spread out across the country, other voices were heard. Some people said, you know, it doesnt say in the bible theres anything wrong with people of different races marrying. And some people said, actually this might be very good for the missionary cause if this thing starts to happen, even on a broader scale. Said it was debate back and forth. There was an interesting discussion of kind of indians as a race, quote unquote. Are they savages, or actually as some people thought, they had a pretty good way of living. So i shouldnt leave the impression, and i hope the book does leave the impression, that it was all in one direction. The point is it really sparked a major controversy. This was a time either way when in the culture at large of the whole issue of race was coming to the floor in a way it had never been true before. It was always up presents for sure, but there was a time when theories of racial difference were being sort of quasiscientific, or pseudoscientific theories about racial differences were emerging, learned scholars were proposing a different races were in a kind of order and, of course, indians and africans were at the bottom. So yeah, the Mission School, the story does coincide with the sort of upsurge of racial discussion. And i think finally of race prejudice, too. Okay . [applause] thank you. Cspan to providing live coverage of the u. S. Senate floor proceedings and key Public Policy event. Every weekend of tv, number 15 is the only Television Network devoted to nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2 created by the cable tv industry and brought to you as a Public Service by local cable or satellite provider. Watch us in hd, like us on facebook and follow was on twitter. Next, president jimmy carter talked about human rights abuses against women around the world and discusses what can be done about the problem. This is a little over one hour. [applause] mr. President . Mr. President , women as you pointed out in your book do not fare very well in most religions around the world. At best they are second class citizens. At worst they have been in prison common slate, tortured, raped, eden, murdered. And ive had a lot of women saved me over the past