[inaudible conversations] okay. Hello, everyone. Were going to get started. I hope you can hear me okay. Hello. Good evening, everyone. When you have an event on one of the most miserable days of the year, you get very nervous. But its great to see so many people here tonight on what is a truly awful new york city evening. We didnt really worry too much about it. Can you hear me okay now . A little better . Mic check. Okay. We didnt worry too much about it because we have a great draw today. For those of you who dont know me, my name is eric kleinen berg, professor of sociology here at nyu and also the director of the institute for public knowledge. You are in the kind of annexed space of the institute for public knowledge. Were hosting this evenings event, and we do a lot of events like this. Were the part of nyu that tries to take ideas and intellectuals that might otherwise spend too much time merchandise the ivory tower and project them out into the world. So we really aim to generate conversations between people and the University World and people outside the university who have a lot to say to one another. And we do many events like this. We urge you to get on our mailing list if youre not already part of the ipk community. So tonight is especially exciting to me. Its exciting for many reasons. One is that Sherry Turkle, our distinguished guest tonight, was hugely helpful to me and to my increasingly well known recent collaborator aziz an sari when we are writing our book, modern romance, over the last couple of years. We drew heavily from the foundation of her knowledge. And she said so many things that were interesting to us, but she told us a lot about conversation and technology and things to look out for. And i will always remember one of the most amazing experiences that aziz and i had when we were writing our book. Sherry really cued us for this event. We were doing a bunch of focus groups, and we did a focus group at the upright citizens brigade, the comedy house in chelsea. And we wanted to talk to people in different generations who were involved in relationships. And so we made an invitation to the young people who were mostly following aziz. We said, you know, youre welcome to come to this kind of focus group show, it was a strange thing we did. And basically, the tickets were free or pretty close to free. And all you have to do to get in is bring your parent or grandparent. And you can just come. And so huge numbers of people did. Its aziz, after all, they wanted to see him. And then we pulled a little bit of a surprise on them when they came in the door. We said we want the Younger Generation on one side of the auditorium, and we want the older generation on the other side of the auditorium. So we separated the group. And right before we went up on stage, aziz and i were standing behind the curtain e, and we peeked out. And we saw the most incredible thing, which is on the left side of the stage where the older generation was sitting, all of these total strangers were talking to each other. What a funny thing, how did you wind up here, do you have any idea who this aziz ansari guy is . [laughter] and on the right side, everybody was in their phone. Every Single Person was in phone world. It was a strange thing to see. But there was something that was happening about conversation and how its changed. If you talk to the people on the right side of the stage, they probably would have told you that they were involved in really intense conversation too. But it looked different, and it felt different, and we didnt go deep on this issue in our book. We told that story really quickly partly because there was no reason to. We me knew sherry was going to knock it out of the park just a few months later, as she has. [laughter] so tonight we are here for conversation about reclaiming conversation. Were not just letting sherry do a public lecture, which would be easy. We instead have the hard work of conversation ahead of us. But its going to be hard and pleasurable at the same time partly because we have marie here as well. Marita is a Dear Colleague and friend of ipk. Shes also the professor of media culture and communication here at nyu. Shes the former editor of american quarterly which is the official journal of the american studies association. And shes the author of several acclaimed books including tourists of history memory, consumerism and kitsch in american culture, and tangled memories the vietnam war, the aids epidemic and the politics of remembering, and shes also the coeditor of technological visions the hopes and fears that shape new technology. Shell obviously be drawing on things she thought about while working on those projects, especially the latter one tonight, because shes here with the guest youre all here to hear from as well, sherry terkel. Sherry is truly one of our days most influential public intellectuals. Shes a professor of the social studies of science and technology at mit, and she is the author of several landmark books. You know, books that are cited by thousands of people and that continue to have influence over people working in many different fields today. There are too many books for me to name, but i will just list some of the most well known ones, the second self, life on the screen, simulation and discontent, alone together and, of course, the book that were all here to discuss tonight, reclaiming conversation the power of talk in the ding tam age. Digital age. And i should tell you were selling the book as well, its a week launch e book launch event, and we take pride where the book vendor leaves with no books to carry home. That means youre here for free but you have to, you know, do your part at the end of the night. Professor turkle is unique for bringing a psychological as well as a sociological frame of reference to the study of digital culture. She has a real Historical Perspective on these issues, because shes been doing work in this area since the days of the first personal computers, and shes observed the arc of this culture develop. There are some observers who say that professor turkhe has changed her mind because she went from being protechnology at some point in her career to being antitechnology. But if you read her work or if you listen to her closely, youll know thats really a caricature of her thoughts. Shes not antitechnology. What she is is proconversation. Shes proface to face interaction. And shes here actually, all of us are here to have a good conversation tonight. So what i ask of you is that you, if possible, put down your device [laughter] turn it off just an hour or so, lift up your heads. Dont let us see the top of your head. [laughter] lift them up and join me in welcoming professors serkin and turkle to ipk. After they spend some time speaking with each other, join them in conversation as well. One thing i will say as preliminary, we have cspan here filming tonight, so this event will be broadcast. What that means is that when we get to the questions and answers, i will come up, and im just going to ask everyone with a question to come to the microphone, please, so people at home can hear from you as well. With that, let me ask you again to welcome our guests. [applause] so were hypermicked up here miked up here. Were micd for emergencies and [laughter] conversation on amp. I was remembering the other day that ive known you, i think, for about 20 years. Yes. And even though we havent seen each other that often, each time we have seen each other over the years weve had a really great conversation. And so i think, actually, the place where i want us to begin thinking and talking is about what is, what is a good conversation . Like, what makes a meaningful conversation . What is the conversation that you are, in your book, asking us to have . Not you and me, but right. Us. Well, thats such a wonderful question. I think that different, of course, if youre thinking about children and parents and developmentally what makes a great conversation. Because i think that a great deal of my book is talking about the dangers, really the clear and present dangers of parents not having conversations with their children. So before i answer in general about why our conversations light both of us up and i think why theres, you know, why i think theyre such great conversations, i just want to sort of make a plug for the developmental importance of parents and children meeting face to face, eye to eye. Since i just have become more and more aware of parents texting at breakfast, textinging at dinner, children tugging at the sleeves of parents who are, you know, really not paying attention to them in the park, waving to them from the jungle gym look at me, look at me and who cant talk to them, cutting vacations short because the wifi at a vacation spot, you know, doesnt work. Mothers, there are slings for moms to breastfeed and text because the slings hold a little place for the ipad, you can kind of breast feed and text at the same time. [laughter] i like to say that the Technology Makes us forget what we know about life. And what parents really know about life is that they need to look at their children, make eye contact with their children. Thats how you make a person. Thats how you make a person. And one of the most meaningful conversations i had, one of the signal conversations i had in writing this book was with a man who said that he had an 11yearold daughter, and when she was a baby, he gave her baths. And during those baths he would talk to her, play with her, sing with her. And those conversations, he knew, had formed kind of the bedrock of their relationship. And now he has a 2yearold. And when he gives her a bath, he puts her in the bathtub, makes sure the water is kind of low so she doesnt get into trouble with, you know, with the water, and he puts down the seat on the toilet and sits there and does his email on his iphone. And he says, you know, i know its not right, you know, but thats what im doing now. And those are the conversations, i mean, just to begin with my motivation for writing a book about conversation. Now, i think that this technology is making us forget what we know about life, that that cant be. Now, more generally right. More generally what a conversation does, the kinds of conversations im talking about because, after all, we dont live in a silent world, were talking to each other, are conversations where people make themselves vulnerable, where theres a certain spontaneity, where the conversation goes where it will, where you allow the conversation to go where it will. Its the opposite of when i asked, was talking about conversation with a young man who said he never likes to have a conversation, and i said, well, why . Whats wrong with conversation . And he said conversation, ill tell you whats wrong with conversation, it takes place in realtime, and you never know what youre going to say. [laughter] so, you know, define conversation that im talking about as the opposite of that; conversation as openended, where now you can ask me anything, where i allow myself to let you take me someplace. Okay. So that points to, like, the issue of trust, right . Yes. If you and a lot of your book is the, all of the means that we have today to avoid facetoface conversation whether its with a professor or in the context of a family or in a romantic relationship, right . So then if were thinking about the stakes involved in that kind of facetoface conversation, right . I was thinking earlier that, you know, these are urgent times. Theres anyone who doesnt feel like we lurch from one crisis to the next, were all afraid, theres a sense of urgency to everything. And this is, i would argue this is your most urgent book. Yes. You know . That theres a sense of urgency to it. And, certainly, the material about children have probably the most urgency in it. But i also think when were talking about urgency and crisis and the state of the world, were also talking about vulnerability, right . Whether were talking about the kind of vulnerability that we are unable to express politically, right . That then produces more violence or revenge, right . Or were talking about the kind of vulnerability that youre pointing to here which is how to have a very basic level of conversation that isnt yet scripted. So i wonder if youve, how you would think about that in relationship to the question of vulnerability. Well, you know, its interesting, one of the young women i interviewed who had Just Graduated College shocked me with this answer, which i think has a very profound leaves us with a very profound political mission. She said im glad i dont have any controversial opinions. [laughter] because on the Internet Everything is public, and everything is kept forever. And thats not a comfortable place to express yourself. And i think our sense of vulnerability, of always being seen and of everything being kept and who is watching and itll be forever, leaves us in a kind of political environment where someones basic feeling is im glad i dont have any controversial opinions. Thats very different i just want to note from saying, you know, i have lots of controversial opinions, and im really angry that the internet is a place where i really have to think about how im going to express them and where im going to express them and how im going to do it and strategize. Shes saying im glad i dont have any controversial opinions. In other words, the silencing is so profound that it happens before she even allows herself the opinion. So i think that we are so afraid of how vulnerable we feel that it can silence us really at the most basic level. And i think that goes very deep. So if were thinking about digital media, new technologies, and youve been studying technology for so long, i mean, part of what were always dealing with is the way many which new way in which new technologies, and i think social media pushes this even further, amplify existing activities, right . So im thinking you describe so many of these contexts in which people are trying to have a conversation with someone whos on their phone, right . So the sense that you cant get the attention of the person or the parent or whoever it is that youre trying to have that kind of facetoface contact with. And im thinking, well, yeah, we have a lot of predigital media versions of that, you know . The conversation at the Cocktail Party where the person youre talking to is scanning the room kind of thing. And so i guess part of my question is how do we make sense of whats different here, right . Beyond am myification and amplification and degree. Well, i think weve reached, you know, i think theres kind of a line in the sand thing here. You know, Research Shows that if you put a phone on the table between you and the person youre having lunch with, two things happen. The conversation becomes more trivial, and you and the other person feel less empathetic connection with each other. Which makes sense, because the phone symbolizes that at any moment you could be interrupted. At any moment you could be interrupted. And so my the trigger for my getting involved with conversation, my feeling that it was the right thing to write about really was the development of alwayson, always on you technology where our attention is always divided. And i think that is the triggering technology that we dont know how to manage yet. So im actually quite the urgency is not that we give up our phones at all. Our phones are here to stay. Technology that allows us to be always in touch with each other is here to stay. But we have not developed the social mores that make sense with this technology. So, for example, the book looks back at Previous Technology as a really seductive medium. But i would never say to you, marita, hold on, give me just a second. I want to catch just two paragraphs of madame bovary. [laughter] i need to know whats happened. I need to know, you know, rudolph, emma in the cab, ill get back to you. No matter how seductive the book, weve developed ways of being with the book that sort of make sense. And we havent adopted ways of being developed ways of being with our phone that make sense. And i think its really a question that, you know, whether or not wearing it as a watch i just this afternoon was with someone who wears it as a watch. I said, okay, is your attention more focused on the people youre with . And he said, no, im always thinking of whats on my wrist. So, you know, is that a help . Is that moving forward in progress . Or is that not . So do you think of your book, i mean, we, were in agreement that it right. Has an urgent tone. Yes. Do you think it also has a kind of moral tone to it . Yes. I think well, heres my morality. Im trained in a psychodynamic tradition, im trained psychoanalytically. Im trained to think that empathy is one of the, you know, is key to our humanity. Empathy being, quite simply, the ability my ability to put myself in your shoes, imagine the world from your point of view and your ability to do the same thing for me. And really if i wanted to be briefist, i could have said, hey, for great conversation you need to be able to do that. And theres been a 40 decline in College Students in every way we know how to measure this, a 40 decline in College Students empathetic capacity in the past 20 years. And in middle schools all over the country, ive been able to observe a real problem in students ability to put just quite simply as early as middle school put themselves in the place of the other. So its natural that this should happen if people dont get practice doing the thing where empathy is bred which is by talking. I like to say that conversation is the talking cure because you learn empathy by being here, observing you, imagining, you know, and getting feedback from were empathy machines. Were meant to learn how to do that. So it sort of brings me back to my initial question, right . So its talking, its eye contact yes. Its copresence, right . Yes. But its also something unscripted, right . We dont know where its going, right . My being attentive to your telling, to where youre telling me youre going. Right. So in that sense, theres a kind of collaborative aspect to a conversation. Yes. Right . So, i mean, you have so many examples of young people saying, you know, im uncomfortable with this because i cant perfectly craft my words. Yes. I dont want to be in that office with that professor, i would rather write them an email, so im choosing my words carefully and, of course, is ironic. I dont know, most of us have had pretty difficult experiences with tone on email, and, you know . [laughter] email is sort of classically known as the medium of misunderstanding. So, but that sense that the unscriptedness is scary. Right. Right . Yes. And potentially making one more vulnerable to ones own feelings. Feelings and, you know, sense of self, right . Yes. I mean, one of i mean, its interesting you should end up on a sense of self, because one of the messages, i begin the book on conversation with a chapter on solitude because one of the, you know, this is the academic in me, you know, saying what i want you to take away [laughter] if i want you to take one thing away from all of this, you know, this is the thing, that conversation begins with a capacity for solitude. And theres a stunning, i mean, its a terrible pun, but theres a stunning study that shows that College Students, when asked to just sit alone without their devices for six minutes, will begun to administer electroshocks to themselves rather than continue to sit alone with their thoughts. That were losing a capacity for solitude because we are so used to having the ability to just go with our phones. Boredom is one of the most important things for a child to develop the capacity for boredom. When youre bored, your brain isnt bored, it actually is laying down the basis for stable sense of a self. And there are baby bouncers now that have a slot for an ipad or a tablet or a phone. Potty trainers that have a slot for tablet or a phone. These moments, these are moments when your child needs to be bored and to learn to have solitude. So, you know, the capacity were losing these capacities that are, you know, essential for the kind of conversations we need to develop em patrick capacity. The other day someone was complaining to me that everyone on the subway was on their own, and i thought, well, okay on their phone, and i thought, well, okay. Before that everyone was reading a newspaper. Our alternatives are not necessarily deeplevel conversations, right . And so just thinking about that question of down time, you know, walking, thinking, when i was reading your book, i was thinking about the fact that i have a tendency to listen to podcasts now when i walk the dog, right . And thinking, oh, right, ive just taken that experience that is about thinking and, you know, maybe im learning more about science. Ive listened to some Sherry Turkle podcasts. [laughter] but well, i think you should. Theres a law there. I guess im saying that there is a loss there. And so many of the students i interviewed said boredom is something that my generation never has to think about again. I will never have to be bored, i will never have to have a moment of down time. And i think that this is not messily progress. Necessarily progress. I would argue that you should, that embracing solitude, embracing boredom, it is not happy that students sat six minutes and then literally were jumping out of their skin waiting to listen to their podcasts. And i just want to say, i mean, one of the things id love to have questions and for you to discuss later too is that the researchers who did the research on the College Students 40 decline in empathy over the past 20 years, when they finished that research, they were very depressed. I mean, even they were shocked by that number. I mean, thats extraordinary. This empathy gap which is showing up all over the literature. And the next thing they turned to was to start to write empathy apps for the iphone. [laughter] and i think that, you know, that is a very hot question in my business on the borderline between technology and identity, technology and the self. What about using technology to increase our sense of empathy . Is that a path . Can you imagine all these kids who arent talking to each other who dont have practice with eye contact now looking down at their phones to do exercises to help them with that . And, you know, part of me, part of me welcomes and embraces anything that will help us, will help us with this, and part of me says we are the empathy app. People are the empathy app, you know . Lets look up and talk to each other. So in your research for the project, was there any moment when you found something that was really a creative way to use Technology Toward conversation . In other words, do we have to turn away from the technology in order to have those conversations . There are a million ways to use technology to enhance conversation. I mean, think of television. Look at the bum wrap that television got. People said, oh, my god, television is so horrible. You know, television is a wonderful example of how everything depends on social context. I watch game of thrones with my daughter, and it is a contact sport. [laughter] because were hugging, were, you know, my head is in her bosom because i cant bear to see, you know, i mean, theres food, theres theres conversation. Theres conversation. I cant believe who theyre killing off, you know . Its an enormously social, intimate, you know, there is nothing wrong with television. And i grew up in a family that watched television, talked back to the television. We used to watch this thing called the Molly Goldberg show about a jewish family in new york, and my grandfather would be talking about how he would do everything differently and how all the mistakes they were making, and the entire family watched it. It was a highly social technology for my family. Now, if you take television and everybody puts it on their phone and goes to their room or, you know, thats a different thing. So the afordances of the technology are many, and its really a social and psychological choice how youre going to use that technology. And that is the message of reclaiming conversation, is that you can use technology in many ways and in ways and create social mores around technology that bring it into a better way of life for you and your children. You dont need to text at dinner, you dont need to text in the car doesnt need to be a place for texting and movie watching. It can be a place for conversation. Thats one of my, i consider the car as ground zero in the fight to reclaim conversation. Thats one of my tips. Yeah. Im not sure im there yet on the car trips. [laughter] well, you know, were going to have another one of our marathon sessions, maritax im going to convince you. Lets drive somewhere together. Lets take a drive. So youve been in conversation all over the place for the last two months month. Just a month . Talking about the book. So are there other, newer things that youve learned . What have you learned in the conversations that youve had . About the book . Ive learned, you know, i describe the book as a book of an unhappy camper because one of the messagings and surprises of the research is that people are not happy with sort of the social mores that are developed around the phone. So this guy who, you know, gives his daughter a bath and is doing his email yeah. He feels guilty. Its not just that he feels guilty. He feels, he feels like hes missing out. Im not sure guilt captures how we feel. I think this is a sense of of loss . Of loss. Really kind of authors choice. My favorite line in my book is Technology Makes me forget what we know about life. We know something about life, and this technology is so seductive it makes us, i like to say it makes us these promises like gifts from a benevolent fairy, you know . That you can be wherever you want to be, you can always be heard, you can put your attention wherever you want it to be, theres always somebody to listen that are so seductive that we allow ourselves to forget about life. And on the road what ive been hearing are stories of people forgetting about life but who feel they want to make a change and who somehow want to have an alternative to saying im addicted. Because, actually, when they think about it, when they think about it, you know, he doesnt he can leave the phone out of the bathroom when he gives her a bath. Its he kind of can. Hes not that addicted. Its just sort of easier not to. But he can. So before we open it up, i want to ask you about your critique of the better than nothing argument, right . I asked her to ask me this. [laughter] this is the only planted spoiler alert you did . Yes, during yes. [laughter] youve forgotten. I thought id come up with it on my own. Okay. [laughter] and you have various examples in the book, im thinking of the one where the robotic animals are given to the people in the senior home, right . But im thinking about other examples too. Like, okay, i go away, and i read my kid a book on facetime because im not there. So thats better than, no right . Like, its better than me not talking to him at all, and for various reasons i cant be there, im not way for long, that kind of thing. But you have a pretty strong philosophical argument against the better than nothing. Right. Well, let me just lay this out, because maybe i thought id asked you because i feel so strongly about this. [laughter] maybe i learned it telepathically. Youre about to be hit, even as we speak a group of products are being released. Theres hello barbie for kids, theres ahas bro a hasbro cat for elders, just to take two of my things i love to hate. And, basically, these are the beginning of many more to come objects that will be robot companions for children and for seniors which are the two sort of vulnerable groups that are there to be given robotic companions. And, essentially, these objects and ive studied these for many years, and theres a chapter in reclaiming conversation. Its the final chapter, because really here i quite unaccustomedly for me, i think, do become something of a moralist. Because i really think this is where we lose our humanity. In the case of children, a robot doll that says, marita, do you have a sister . I have a sister. Its really hard being jealous of your sister. Tell me about how youre jealous of your sister. Im really jealous of mine, hey, lets dish. That doll has no empathy to give, it has no empathy to teach because it has not lived the arc of a human life. Pretend empathy is not empathy. You cant learn empathy that im talking about and that i clearly feel is at the basis of our humanity, this ability to put ourselves in the place of another. You cant learn that from a doll. And in the case of elders, with all the focus being on can you get an older person, can you get an older person to talk to this doll, yeah, you can get an older person to talk to a doll, but whos listening . And i feel, again and this is where i think the argument, my argument about conversation becomes a moral argument, you know, that the compact we have between generations is we will listen to each other and listen to each others stories. And that is the meaning of what we transmit to each other. And the argument for why we need these things is that again and again as i interview scientists, engineers, robot cysts, the people who push these is that theres nobody who wants these jobs. People are too busy, people you cant get people to be with these people who need these objects, and at least theyll have somebody to talk to. And better than nothing starts to be butter than something. The robotics starts to be better than a pet because its cleaner, and then all of a sudden it starts to be better than any pet because it will always stay a puppy, or it will always stay a young, little funny cat, and it will never get old, and it will never die. Oh, it might die though. [laughter] it will break down. It will break down, but theres a kind of denial. Theres, first of all, a denial of that, but theres a sort of denial that you should ever need to face what it is to have a pet, to have attachments and that that is, in fact, part of what it means to have a pet be attached and why we wanted them in the first place. So it kind of goes back to first principles. So why were you talking to your daughter . Why were, why should it be you talking to a daughter instead of your doll . Its because your daughter needs to hear that if she wants to vent about her sister, he needs to know that she needs to know that you will be there and not break down and fall apart, but can hear it and will still be there for her and still love her and that its not toxic, and its not terrible to have strong feelings about another person and express them. Thats why its important that your daughter talk to a person and not to sirri and not to a robot best friend. There are lots of examples in reclaiming conversation of parents who are happy for their kids to talk to siri. Before you have robot best friends, you have siri who kind of stands at the my kid likes to trick siri. So he likes to ask siri things that she cant quite answer. [laughter] yeah. Like, siri, will you marry me . Yeah. I just want to be friends. [laughter] so but you get, you get my gist. Yes. The force of my feeling about this comes from really, you know, this is where we live, is in our relationships and, you know, having an industry that is now in the smartest way going to convince us that these fake relationships right. Are the way to go, and it just so happens that this is a big month for the marketing of these fake relationships, i just, i want to start a conversation. I want to be part of that conversation. The prechristmas conversation. The prechristmas conversation. [laughter] speaking of the prechristmas conversation, this is the time for your part of the conversation. Just remember, like, as i said before, because of the mic situation and the cameras, we cant have you ask questions from your seat, so if you could just line up behind the microphone over there, that would be great. And what ill ask and be you could really try to if you could really try to ask a question. Maybe you want to have a little bit of preample, but were aiming for questions as a spark to the conversation. Thank you. Ill try to be short, if im not or short, please tell me. Our topic today is conversation. On the other hand, were in a journalism school, and im afraid a lot of people here are either plain clothes students or teachers of it. So here is my situation. If you im talking about poem who want to have a conversation people who want to have a conversation in direct form x. There are two problems, situations. What you want to discuss and who to discuss it with. And the problem is if you dont work in academic environment or in culture or youre surrounded by people [inaudible] so i have idea, and i wonder what you think about it. I call it conversations around [inaudible] articles from weeklies and dailies. I didnt get, i didnt understand [inaudible] i call it conversation around timeless articles from weeklies and dailies. Yes. The idea is that [inaudible] comes from reading a serious article, a great work of journalism. On the other hand, people who you can discuss it with [inaudible] the trouble is that there is no place to find them. So i think about having discussion [inaudible] after Book Discussion groups and not limited to a single magazine. It appears [inaudible] today or 30 years ago someone sent me an article, and so my question is, first of all, does it, is it a good idea at all . And second, how to make people know, people who need this kind of a group, how to make them know [inaudible] so that they create the group . I create my own, you create your own. We have different interests, we will have different groups, but the idea is the same. What do you think about it, and is it good or bad . And second, how to make people who need it to be aware of it. Thank you. Well, im going to say this is an idea that needs to be out on the internet. [laughter] it is on internet. [inaudible] im saying there are already. I think that the idea of every kind of meetup for the idea of to get people together, i think that this is, i mean, here i guess what i was not joking about is that there are already so many, and this, i think, is the wonderful news of the internet and social media, is as a place to convene people to come together. I mean, i would imagine that most of the people here found out about coming here by something online. I did. I think your idea is sound. Good evening. Television as a social activity, you referenced your theory about marrying, a couple other fingers like childhood, i also thought of the eighteenth century, and i imagine the majority of us are familiar with that. I want to know what role if any did that play . One of those people who i met when i was a young scholar wrote, who deeply encouraged and inspired me. That is all over everything, all over this book. All over my approach to the world. I dont i remember going to a retreat when i just published the second one, the first in a series of books, identity, methodology. At that time people were like why do this . Keep at it. For the stake we are in the old world, and the old office, not to be a radical but lucky you. There is this other line of thinking, challenge those pieces and in this department, actually there is a way of consuming media that was fairly passive, we used to sit together as a family in front of the tv, interesting to hear you talk about tv is that way. Robber put them, the whole idea was we are watching tv together as a family and not engaging a nice family story you told about watching a show with your daughter. There is a line in the debate, people are using these devices to engage in creative conversation they might not have. And they can go very deep on game of thrones and people who might otherwise feel estranged from the people around them, they are using these technologies in smarter ways. I am not asking this to establish, what is your conversation with them like. My conversation with them is lively and productive, i find when people do use this technology when people use this technology to meet up, yes, public conversation he up, when people use this technology, when they are isolated and in a situation of isolation to find them less isolated and better yet to meet in person i am all in. I am pro conversation and that is where my work and theres meet up. I think the differences, i also find something happening in parallel to that, people are facetoface, all ready to get your they take out their phone and board a conversation. I am all in if you are using your technology to find people you can connect with. And however you make it happen you end your isolation. The paradox is i am studying the situation that i find painful, poignant and more and more common. We come to gather, we are a family together and we are each alone. Thank you for a great conversation. I feel guilty for everything, i want to ask about the conflicting phenomenon. What makes us feel we get attention more to our children than any previous generation and i and actually spoke to them, that is number one. Multi part questions find a tremendous paradox because i was able to study families over time and that is one did vantage in studying so many families over time, families become helicopter parents after their children have left, when children were out of their site at school become crazy attentive to what is happening. And same parents who are attentive to what is happening with child at school like texting at dinner. They are in conflict but that conflict is to be noted and studied. They are not happening at the same time. Next question. I can focus unit tasking is another thing that is very important. Into ideas and innovation, and might have they are requiring some things even though they are not multitasking, they are evolving stocks, from my perspective i wanted to know if this was the idea through all of this. I am encouraged if that is how it unfolds. From my perspective as a College Professor, interested to hear from others, other people in the room to comment on this. To accomplish things by doing one thing at a time. They get things done, multitasking is a myth. You can only do one thing at time. Our attention degrades for every new task when we multitask but the brain pulls a trick on us if we have the feeling we are doing better and better as we add more tasks, we are doing worse and worse. You feel more and more like a master of the universe when in fact you are doing worse and worse at everything that you are doing. It is a vicious cycle. In this quest for creativity and ideas and bringing things to completion and being created in order to go deep, a new habit needs to be learned and i learned deeply. I dont know another College Professor to my left. You mention in the book, i heard a lot of people say in order to write one must turn off, one must turn off the wifi, facebook, must not answer email and we have programs that help us to do that. The sense i hear from people will watch that they have to think very seriously about unit tasking and the relationship to writing after deliberately turning off which are on the screen. That is the big thing that younger kids talk about. If you are writing a paper, doing your research, you are being pulled constantly by the other parts of your screen. In the book i interview 14yearolds news schools have shut down libraries that the entire curriculum on Apple Computers and microphone and tablets and apple, the giveaway program of the tablets and every student, the curriculum has been put on the tablet and now the library is checked out and students are printing out their assignments because they cant concentrate if they are doing the work on their tablets and one student who is 14 said why did they close the library . Why did they close the library . It is such a good place to read. What is the answer . Why did we close the library . This is a good example of there is nothing wrong and everything creative about tablets, so much great stuff on them but isnt the best medium for 14yearold to do all their work on the tablets, here are these kids printing out their assignments so they wont be distracted on social media. That is the way to think about the beginning of the question. They were focused on what children have where every professor and writer and grownup person feels the machine is kicking their ass. It is hard to focus in general the thing that is in front of them. Colleagues around the hole know they have to do it. You go to a faculty meeting, they reached a funny moment where people feel basically unless you are with the person you have just fallen in love with that weak, what was on the phone, what was going on in front of you, that was a difficult challenge for all of us people to be in. And led to where we end the book to become ideas about how were going to break free of these. And whether it is their work and the family. That is a great question and of final thought because essentially the idea, the gift from genies, the phone is where the sweetness comes. And watched with my grandfather. And choose someone, what it is used to. And inform the lives of the people. People look to their phones for the next message. That is where the sweetness will come. It has the feeling of salvation, that is where the good news will come and essentially, it is getting back to look up and look at who you are with and begin the conversation. Think about the solitudes realistically. And what you are looking for in the next message. Here is the psychological part of me speaking, what is it your trying not to think about . I think very often as i interviewed people there is something they are trying not to think about when they are looking confidently at the next message or hoping the next message will change their life. What is there about their lives that they need changing . Can you do it yourself without that . I have a hopeful message because i think these are doable things and an increasing sense that children are leading the way. Children lead the way because they are saying why close the library on me . Cant concentrate this way. Why did you close the library on the . I want to raise children not the way my parents raised me with phones at dinner but the way my parents think they are raising me with conversation and family time. I think those children will try to do that. You are also challenging us to not avoid conflict. And dont avoid typical conversation, talk to people with whom you dont agree. The counterpart for that is seeking a message is also lets not of would the difficult that we perceive as being there in that and known goal for the conversation. And the difficult in yourself, vulnerability means your vulnerability to know what you are about. Running to your phone is a way to not think about yourself so yes. Heres what were going to do for the sake of getting more voices in the conversation. I will ask the two of you to ask questions backtobackk and the respond. You mentioned empathy for children. It does sound like swinging the other way, the ones who are interested, conversation is difficult yet rewarding. How do you fix that, teach people, not models, not in a classroom. Where do you see that knowledge these days . Another question . I talked middle school for seven years so i am keenly aware of phones. I would notice the behavior i see kids do with a go to a new apps, refresh to see something new, new apps for fresh, constantly. Almost just automatic. The whole time it contradicts what the report in the book, they are constantly saying they are bored. They are on these devices and getting their egos refreshed in a way or instructed to constantly be fed but they are always saying they are bored. What i actually saying when they are surrounded by information and data but they are also saying they are bored . I will take that last one, just a wonderful piece of observation. And future research. Since i think that is a a very profound statement by in these kids that they are saying something that i think so much of us feel about what is not nourishing about constantly refreshing and i hope those kids hit at point where unlike their elders, have been thinking as i grew up the best i ever get was dick tracy on the radio. That was my idea. These kids have always lived with this continual refreshment and yet it isnt nourishing and for them it is like when they go to a sleetaway camp for five days, Research Shows their empathy level starts to come back up and at the beginning levels had been suppressed in all ways we know how to measure and in five days they come back up and my own research at sleepaway camps where there are no devices, kids start to talk about how nice it is to be quiet with yourself and how nice it is to talk to your friends, not what is on your phone but what is on their minds, and this link between capacity for solitude and conversation. They discovered that together when they dont have that ability to constantly refresh. That is a very profound observation. The question of what to do, you are not all 14yearold who is starting to see the possibility, you are not in that you are not happy you are not all 14yearold where i see the hope. I think basically my 12 step program, i do i have a 20 minute in the course of the boat have many steps. For many people, their recovery, if i may use that word begins at work because they start work phobic about conversation, phobic about telephone calls. Many employers i spoke to, one of the maine chapter is, we didnt talk about that at all today, but i went to a lot of companies, a lot of businesses and Software Companies and investment and studied the culture of conversation, many firms say stuff like people will not use the telephone. If you talk to young person and say did you talk to them with your voice . Did you talk to them using your mouth . The is actually people are not wanting to talk and it is not because they are resistant or want to do well with their jobs. It is because actually they are afraid to talk. People were always saying to me i dont have practice with this. Way they put it was this was a young man at a software company. I dont have practice thinking on my feet. Looking for that metaphor, thinking on my feet, thinking on my toes, can think on my toes, can think on my feet. He is trying to capture he is not good at conversations so very often in the work place people are mentored, to do their jobs they need to talk. You need to have conversation. Need a conversation to close the deal. I have a lot of stories for people who turn to their parents. You know, they are posting on facebook, a child to parent. And kids on their phones, it is very often the older people enmeshed in their phones. I just want to talk to you, i want to come to dinner in my sweatpants and talk to you. People saying stop googleing during dinner. A couple more questions. You touched on my question lightly, because i am a woman of a certain age i am curious about the role of gender and age, the inability in of vulnerability in empathy in the development of empathy and being vulnerable. Trying to look at this in a larger context. Do you find a parallel with conversations losing the diminishment of the study of humanities from schools. But conversation, losing conversation with our heritage. Do you feel those two are parallel . This last is definitely yes, this last question. Also an inability to read history, to read parallel study time, mary ann wolfes study of reading. Mary ann wolfe is scholar of reading discovered that she went on a vacation and every three years or so she had a speed game and it is her favorite book, and went on vacation and she says she couldnt read the book and realized she lost the capacity to read serious fiction. She lost the capacity to read something long which is a phenomenon of the brain rewiring itself, the short stuff we read all the time. Which is discussed so brilliantly in the shower and brought to the public attention. I am on a tear about conversation, she is on a tear about reading and you cant develop this dialogue with the past in a complex way if you were not reading. I didnt make gender the focus of my work but i will say this, that women had a tremendous it wasnt as though doing this study the women stood out as conversational, the women were on their phones talking about this constant refreshing, talking about their need to their troubles with conversation. It turns out that other researchers have shown that women do social media less than video games and reserve tremendous differences on what women and men do on the run and that is a whole other topic. It wasnt just as though women were exempt from the kinds of taking out their phones during conversation facetoface that i am talking about here. Lets take these two last questions and remind everyone Sherry Turkle has agreed to stick around and sign her book after word so thank you so much. I work in religious education so we do a lot of horizontal conversations and vertical conversations enfield logically whether or not god hears or answers puts us outside ourselves and allows us to emphasize with another and you think about it with that experience and i was wondering if you researched this in religious tradition or encourage conversation. Thank you for being sensitive to my brain. I actually think that my upbringing as a jew is very present in my way of thinking about conversation. The book has that,talmudic feeling. So many people spoke to me about france and solitudes. The book begins with a chapter on solitude and conversation, i discussed conversation and psychotherapy conversations, solitude, conversations of self reflection and i was very influenced by religious tradition and psycho dynamic traditi