Into the United States. So that cross symbolizes the crossing experience in the title of the book, migration miracle, is basically taken from the words the migrants who often described as successful journey. How did those 400 what were the cause of . The causes ranged from being killed by a smuggler to suffocating in the back of a car, to asphyxiation the drowning in the allamerican canal or in the gulf of mexico. Many died in the deserts. You know, not being able to reach food or water, being left behind. Not really, i mean many of the migrants who travel here without papers are uncertain about their journey. And so its organized increasingly by multiple coyotes, its become much more organized, and its much more difficult for migrants rely, for example, on a Single Person that they may know who has migration experience to take them across the border. So as the borders become heavily militarized and theres more campaigns along the borders to prevent migration, it means that migrants have had to find more dangerous ways basically to reach the United States, and relied increasingly on organized trafficking to get your. Professor, is there an average cost that these migrants are paying to get across the board of . Yes, and its skyrocketing. If you on the mexican side of the u. S. Border, and maybe in one of the border cities, it might cost you eight or 900, but if youre traveling from a small hamlet in the highlands of guatemala, it could be upward of 8000 it also involves than having your families home put on hold. In ransom, and they are often taken. So its an enormous amount of money, and most of it is paid up front, some of the. Well, half of it is paid up front in most cases and half upon arrival. And threat that time the coyote carries all the papers that we document a person like passports, birth certificates from its center. So theyre really at the mercy of the person whos bringing them. Theres many good coyote smugglers, but theres also many unscrupulous smugglers. So its a mixed bag. Ive many stories, smugglers came across them and found them in the desert and help them and in other cases where they were told that they were left behind. How much time have you spent on the border in your work . Dashed, ive been doing my fieldwork for migration miracle since 2009, but i spent time on the board before that because the project to really mode but if it is was a study on deaf on the border and was trying to enumerate for the first time the actual fatalities that occur to migrants but i visited a number of corners offices corridors officers and talk to religious committees along the border and hospitalitys safe houses to get into of what was going on. And that kind to motivate this larger project, to understand how they manage and survive. Did you meet with coyotes . Yes, i met with coyotes. But not i met with the coyotes went ahead to go pick up the migrants at a safe house, and i had to bring extra money so that they could be released. So often what you find is a situation where you arrive at a safe house and then they call a Family Member and say, we had to ask for additional funds even though they gave the amount it and in this case i knew the young men personally. And so i was able to secure the funds and able to go meet with him and the coyotes. Migration miracle, one of the first things you said is that this is organized into six parts. Leavetaking, dangerous journey, churches crossing the border, miracle in the desert, and leavetaking is the first state of migration process to the decisionmaking if it goes into whether or not to leave. And once the decision is made to leave, you leave. So its about the cost of migration, its about leaving ones family, ones community, all but one holds dear. And in most of the migrants in my study, they leave because they have no alternative. Its a very difficult choice. Me of these migrants have never even been to the capital city or largest city in their own countries. But theyre migrating thousands of miles. So leavetaking is the decisionmaking. Making that decision. And often excuse me. Migrants will turn to family to discuss leavetaking and its also household strategy migration is send one member of the family up to earn wages to send back to support the family left behind. But migrants also increasingly turn to religion both at a personal and institutional level. Its basically, religion is the institution that they trust. Its the one institution they can identify with mostly. And its expressed in numerous ways that often and very often through counseling and blessings. So one of the interesting findings across all the groups in the study and all of the different religious faiths was, in fact, reliance on migration blessings before the left. They found them very powerful. Almost and unofficial passport, spiritual passport, something that carries so much significance for the migrants themselves. So thats about leavetaking. When these young people, mostly young people in guatemala, mexico, wherever, mostly male . Increasing more and more women are coming. Solo . Solo. I can recall one incidents. It was in the border town right on the border of mexico where i encountered a young woman with her baby, mustve been about one, maybe two years of age, and she was praying in the church to black cries which is a very important religious icon and guatemala and its the pattern of guatemala. And when i talked where she was praying to locate someone to travel with across the border. She recognized it was too dangerous to travel alone. So yes, increasingly women in some of them come to join husband. Some of them coming for work. Most of the time the women are going to be escorted by coyotes and to attempt to travel alone and a family have savings prepared for the migration journey, are more likely to provide them to the woman because of the dangers, the extra dangers she might face. What are their impressions of what do they think the u. S. Is like . During this stage. I dont think they think of it as the american dream, as they did when i started my Migration Research maybe 20 years ago, which was a common expression. I think now they recognize that theres a serious risks, and in many of the interviews, they are thinking more about the journey, the fear of the undertaking of leaving the possibility they might not ever see their families again. Very real. And so that i think is what has really changed since, especially since after 9 11 with a buildup of the border that is becoming so danger that religious, religion is taken on an increasingly important role. Where we used to think about Understanding International migration and undocumented migration, scholars have long relied on economics and social explanation it and i think that reflects the types of questions they ask. So if you ask a migrants why did you leave, or why are you coming to the states, they will tell you, for economic reasons. But if you ask them why are they going to philadelphia versus washington, d. C. , one, because they have a family network. But if you ask them how they survive, how they make sense of the experience, how they managed to leave community and family, they will respond with faith. Its been the focus of the unexplored role of institutional and personal religion. Chapter three of your book, churches across hot borders. What does that mean . The theme of churches crossing borders is about the growth of a new sanctuary movement. We think about essential american salvadors who flooded the 80s and came and sought sanctuary in churches in the United States. We have an Informal Network of religious organizations and churches that has stretched from guatemalan through Southern United States that care about, third migrants by providing them shelter, food, blessings, council. But also apathy on their behalf. Among the religious leaders and churches in Central America and increasingly in the United States they become very public about immigration matters. They are very concerned about the dangers that migrants face in crossing the borders but and for many religious leaders migrants have a right to migrate, to see them. The family. So this is about defending that right and providing them with a safe journey. So thats churches crossing borders. To the churches have an opinion on the fact that president Obamas Administration had more deportations than any other administration . Yes. Thats basically denying the rights from the churches perspective. Yes. Now, my understanding is obama needs regular with the church made leaders. He has met with protestant and catholic leaders, the bishops conference. The argument from the religious, religious perspectives argument is that the policies are not humane, not fair. Migrants are treated fairly. The state has the right to deport somebody, but its often the way its done. Family separation, somebody picked up at a worksite and the children are left at home and those children are put into foster care. Thats another increasingly important phenomenon. These separate families. So i think the church is concerned are the conditions under which they travel, that they are provided with fair treatment, due process, and you know, if somebody arrives at work and earn citizenship, then they should be provided that opportunity. Jacqueline maria hagan, how did you get involved in this work . Particular project or migration speak with you been doing it for 20 years. Spare well, my father was in the foreign service. So i migrated a lot. And my mother is from coast to because i spent a lot of time in latin america, and i love Central America, the people, the culture, food. I stumbled into this project. It was a very interesting experience here i was in the highlands and guatemala were higher than my dissertation and i met a young pastor who invited me to a fast, a fast a celebration. And we journeyed of mount. It was a track that took us several hours, and at the top of this mountain, sacred grounds, with a group of my of women and men sitting on coal stoves and deep interpretive of them was an evangelical pastor speaking in tongue. And it was at that moment combat experience that i heard migrants, i mean, people stand up and request assistance and gods help with the journey. I realize there was migration counseling going on, and that something very new in latin america. So the clergy has was been there to serve the poor, to meet the needs about jobs or poverty. But the migration counseling aspect is new spent another section of your book, miracles in the desert. When churches are not available, migrants create their own shrine. They bring their own religious companions with them. So in certain areas of the desert, you will actually see humble shrines created out of stones, out of sticks. Some of these are markers to prevent others have places that stopped to pray. They wear medallions but they carry holy cards with images of saints, and those are their companions. We went under trellises of freeways throughout the border where they had engraved on stones. God help me. Do you personally sneak across the werent . No, i didnt. So you would walk along the . Yes. I visited migrant camps were ive seen the artifacts, the objects, the possessions right before they were forced to leave. You see lots of cross is. They were told they cannot bring anything with him at that last stage. What is la promesa . The promise. If i make it, in return i promise to offer something to god or to my religious icon. And thats expressed in numerous ways. Its expressed upon arrival by going to the closest church you can find it doesnt matter if youre protestant and to go to Catholic Church, denomination doesnt matter but it right away giving thanks. The extreme case is returning home to provide thanks at some point. The first place the migrant would come, and its that journey without papers as well, is to go back and give thanks to your icon. It may be by sending hide to your church at home. Tithing. In some cases, it involved mothers lighting candles, light candles to illuminate the way for their children but and when the children arrived, they let a candle and calls their mother and father and in a council was blown out at the other in. End. So it was a way of connecting across borders spiritually. Professor hagan, whats the significance of what you have written in migration miracle . From a theoretical perspective its about introducing religion into rational models of migration but its about recognizing, you know, we live the academies for a very long time treated migration as a totally secular process, and there was wanted to bring a human face to the migration picture and try to understand migration through their lived experience is which then took me to faith into organized religion. And its also for them, three or four key people that are reintroduced in each chapter, and these are women, and ive kept in touch with them. And they have now read this book to their children spin on the all over the u. S. . All over the u. S. One is here in north carolina, several in texas, one in new york. Still illegal or undocumented . What is document. The first thing she did when she got her papers was fly back to her hometown to give thanks spent she is back up in a . She is back up here now. Shes done very well, she and her husband both own businesses, above board. Shes very involved in the local church. Her children are doing well in school. Professor hagan, in all your years of studying migration, what do we not know about it and the effect of it . I think we dont know enough about the context in which migrants leave, that we dont understand it, that we treated as something so voluntary and do not recognize its in desperation often. So i think most of what we study in migration, we do so once the migrants have arrived here and so we really dont understand the context in which they leave and the context in which they travel. When i talk to people about the actual journey, they are amazed. When you talk to people about how many people actually die crossing the border, people are surprised. But i think the academies concern and policymakers concerned has been with their experience here in the United States, and the cost to our economy. Rather than looking at the human side of migration. Have you interviewed the Border Patrol . Yes. Whats your opinion . Well, its mixed. Interestingly, the migrants india has been picked up by Border Patrol generally state very favorable about them. So you know, when i went and interviewed them, many of them felt that this wasn was at a jt they thought it was going to be. And that its an impossible job. I mean, how can you you have to every Border Patrol agent standing, you know, handtohand a long the border to really control the border. And they recognize its led to increased crime, increased smuggling along the border, and that they are trying to do their job in which is an impossible job, and from the migrants perspective theres not really a negative expression that you would expect. They feel that generally when they are picked up, they are picked up because they often need to be treated and go to a hospital, but also they have been treated quite well and sent back. Professor hagan, when you were on the mexican side doing her work, were you ever fearful for your life . No. I would be no. Why . Because i think organized crime is so into play with migration. So right now what you find increasingly is migrants are relying on coyotes who are relying on renting space from traffickers, traffickers were smuggling people and arms and drugs. So its much more dangerous. Its not a game that was played when i was down doing my research. Its become very dangerous. So migrants are not only confronting the dangers of the coyotes but are also coopted often into drug smuggling and human smuggling and arms smuggling. Has the Catholic Church or other churches moved into the border area the last stage, as you called it a . No. They are usually located and wellestablished crossing towns and urban areas. And theres lots of desert and theres lots of unfamiliar desolate territory throughout Central America, especially in guatemala we have a lot of Drug Trafficking going on now. You know, as we came down in mexico, we can, colombia. Which is really redirected much of this into Central America. What do you teacher at the university . What to a teacher . Migration, international migration, at the graduate and undergraduate level. I also teach family, and ive taught religion, development, but my favorite course is migration. Whats similar about the current migration patterns from mexico to the u. S. To pass immigration in the u. S. , anything . The composition has changed. There are more and more women. There are more and more unattached youth. So unaccompanied minors become a huge part of the migration flow from mexico. There are more and more of the poor packages to be it was more selected the you have to have some resources to make the journey, but the situation has become so desperate, especially in honduras, and parts of salvador. So its really polling the youngest and the poorest, more and more women, more and more danger. Anyone make it on their own without spending on a coyotes . Yeah. There are season the migrants that were travel in groups, i think the journey. But our border enforcement policy has really beefed up campaigns in selected crossing points for migrants historically crossed. And in doing so they diverted migrants to the more dangerous spots. So the roots they are taking are unknown, uncertain roots. But yes, many migrants still cross in groups and alone. You have to go to a border town in mexico now, and this just groups of migrants who have been sent back and theyre just sitting there waiting for the opportunity to come back across. And when they leave, they will be sure to stop and get the blessing of a priest. Migration miracle is thing of the book, published by Harvard University press. Faith, hope, and meaning on the undocumented journey, Jacqueline Maria hagan is the author. Thank you. Booktv is on facebook. Like us to interact with booktv guests and viewers, watch videos and get uptodate information on the events. Facebook. Com booktv. And now a booktv want to edit issue to Anthony Arnove of haymarket books. What do you do . Im an editor at the press and health started at around 12 years ago. Who are some of the authors you have . Howard zinn, noam chomsky, david desired ar our some of our better known authors. Does haymarket have the velocity of the kind of books that osha goes absolutely. We are interested in voices that we can continue to social movement, people were trying to shake things up and make a difference spent one of the things we wanted to talk about it some of the upcoming titles that haymarket has for the small tactic for the fall of 2014. Hourly to title is a book that comes out of the movement about education reform or bashing is a collection called more than a score. Theres been some very interesting devoutness there and around the country with parents, students and teachers challenging over testing of students. Thats something were looking forward to in the fall. Dont have the book by rory fanning who actually works at haymarket books. He was an army ranger who has written a book in which he talks about having served with pat tillman, the enough player who unfortunately was killed should we keep going . Okay. In afghanistan, and how he became politicized and ultimately came to speak out against the war that he had been sent to fight. He took a walk across the country to raise money for the tillman family, the tillman foundation, and also to raise awareness around what he thought was an unjust war spin and thats coming up in the fall of 2014, worth fighting for is what that is called. What else is coming out from haymarket . A book from noam chomsky. Pam right over there, 12 books classics that event either out of print or inaccessible with new introductions by noam chomsky, new cover, resetting the mall and to present them in a way that we think highlights the importance and a Lasting Legacy of his work spent and they are done by issue . Yeah. They cover a range of issues and will be bringing out to a month over the next, well, six months starting in the fall. And finally what else do what you tell us about . I want to mention a book by Tom Engelhardt was rated author of ours, issues of books called dispatch books and also writes his own book for us to in his third book is coming out, shadow government, a forward by Glenn Greenwald discovered on the New York Times bestseller list with his new book, and its looking at nsa and the politics surveillance. Anthony arnove, haymarket books out of chicago. This is booktv on cspan2