Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On On His Own Terms 20150301

You are for me with the story. The late 1950s, a young attractive president ial candidate, scion to financial fortune, a one man force field of celebrity good looks and charm, fresh off a loved one victory in his home state in the northeast and patient with the status quo under president eisenhower, itching to get the country moving again and encountering his main impediment to the white house in the form of richard m. Nixon. That description applies of course the john f. Kennedy but equally fits our subject tonight, nelson a. Rockefeller. In fact, the resemblance is more uncanny when comparing the two men intellectual interest, in the arts, the vibe, the future of latin america individual belief in Government Action to improve working conditions, advance of rights and promote nuclear disarmament. Im not interested in what i cant do rockefeller reminded his age. I want to know how i can do what i want to do and it is your job to tell me. Richard norton smith said governor rockefeller comes to life in this enthralling and deeply informative new biography on his own terms another. Mr. Smith is the author of biographies no stranger to president ial libraries. Is directed five he teaches at george mason university, is to come at it on the newshour on pbs, and is the in house historic on cspan but it is always a pleasure to have him on our state. Mr. Smith opens his book copies of which are on sale in our bookstore, there will be a book signing following the forum, capturing the compelling drama of Nelson Rockefellers rages address against the forces of extremism at the Republican Convention in 1964. One of our panelists, Larry Rockefeller, nelsons 50, was there in the Convention Hall that evening. Count basie once introduced his friend governor rockefeller as quote, which enough to a condition the cotton fields. [laughter] and defining a national sense of purpose, Nelson Rockefeller believe that this country like his family must justify its britches through good work and the sharing of wealth. Larry rockefeller has followed his familys long and proud history of dedication to important causes. In his case as an accomplished environmentalist lawyer but also lived and worked in harlem for soviets with the Vista Program and served as an Army Reservist in the vietnam era during which time he was mobilized by the president not for war overseas but for the great new york postal strike of 1970. Finds himself one day personally delivering the mail to the Rockefeller Family offices. I learned from this new biography that under nelson walk for the state than you expend more on fighting Water Pollution than the federal government spent nationwide. This reminded me of one of this commonwealths crusade republican governors bill weld who also believed in governments ability to do good and especially to protect our environment to first elected in 1990, he was reelected four years later by the largest margin in massachusetts history. Since the reference to clean water i thought appropriate to remind the audience of governor welds ability to make campaign fund. As captured by this photo of his impromptu dive into the Charles River during a press conference to tout the states environmental progress under his watch. It is an honor honor to have you with us this evening, governor. We have dry towels at the ready it the harbor looks enticing on your way out of the door. [laughter] our moderator is Sam Tanenhaus writer for the nearterm, former editor of the times book review, biographer of whittaker chambers, and like Richard Norton smith, a finalist for the pulitzer prize. He it admits to certain superstitions including refusing to watch his Favorite Football Team the new york jets on tv because whenever he does they lose. [laughter] i noticed annex by the patriots on december 21. We hope you will too mean. [laughter] a native of massachusetts, Richard Norton smith intended that you the convention i can succeed in miami as in his words, quote and annoyingly precocious 14 year old. Is hopes to aid his chosen candidate, Nelson Rockefeller, pull off an upset encarta the president ial nomination were of course dashed once again by richard m. Nixon. These president ial defeats did little to defer, to determine how some rockefeller overtime. And man mr. Smith describes as someone who never saw a problem he did not want to resolve or a vacant lot he did not want to build on. Until just recently there was a big move to a vacant lot within a political biography shelves covering the 20th century u. S. History. Richard norton smith has now filled it with a book that is as magnificent as the life it describes, again to a stunning architectural masterpiece, can become a powerful and captivating like Nelson Rockefeller himself. Ladies and gentle please join me in welcoming to the kennedy library, Larry Rockefeller Richard Norton smith and Sam Tanenhaus governor weld. [applause] we could all go home now. Tonight we have a great biographer we have a great statesman and we have a rockefeller. Thats pretty good, nation. So lets start with a key moment for those of you who have not yet read richards terrific biography of Nelson Rockefeller. It actually begins with a prologue, and i just as a fellow biographer its a risky thing to do. Sometimes indicates its a lack of confidence in your material but in this case it actually shows that richard has a big argument to make. And its really about the past the present, the identity, and the future of the Republican Party in the trendy. And it opens with this crucial moment the 1964 Republican Convention, National Convention in San Francisco, a cow palace, the year that Barry Goldwater, the sun belt conservative from arizona, received the nomination over Nelson Rockefeller, and fill us in on what happened what rockefellers moment that was so defining. First of all there was no doubt about the outcome of that convention. No one ever imagine that anyone other than Barry Goldwater would be nominated, that any platform in any way unacceptable to goldwater and his followers would be adopted. It was almost a formality. But Nelson Rockefeller, as was his want didnt go along with the formality. At one point governor bill scranton who was the other moderate candidate who had gotten into the race at the last minute speech from pennsylvania. From pennsylvania, recently deceased sadly, great guy, great together. His detractors mock him as a hamlet of harrisburg, but any event he decided to run at the last minute because, like governor rockefeller, he was appalled by senator goldwaters opposition to that years of civil rights bill. Thats a large part of the background. Barry goldwater, to be fair, was no racist. On the contrary he had been a leader in arizona in integrating the National Guard and his own familys department stores. But his brand of what i call sagebrush libertarianism to acceptance to the idea of the government any government in effect telling private individuals whom you had to associate with or sell to. So the 64 convention is about something. Its about big ideas, its about a future in the repugnant party. Because although doctor Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard taft. Is your. Its a dominance of the south and west which we today take for granted at the expense of the old eastern establishing. You had the perfect clash set up and it was personified in one man, Nelson Rockefeller, who was the face of everything that the southern and western conservatives hated. Thats not too strong a word. They felt that their party the old bob taft party, had been repeatedly jobbed out of the presidency of people like Wendell Willkie and thomas dewey and just Dwight Eisenhower and heres Nelson Rockefeller, knowing he doesnt have the votes, knowing it can only hurt goldwater in the fall. But nevertheless standing up to make a five minute speech on national tv denouncing political extremism, which he specifies as the american communist party, the ku klux klan and the john birch society, at the mention of which the place erupts. There are a lot of birchers there, theres a lot of would be birchers there, theological birchers if not necessarily formal members. And its a moment that i would argue rarely in American History is a moment of transforming change. The place went on and on and on booing him. He understood instinctively that, more to the point the goldwater leaders understood oh, my god this is extremism. This, we are making the argument, we are confirming rockefellers worst allegations in a way that Lyndon Johnson and the democrats never could arguably goldwater never recovered from that moment, but he did win. He formalized his victory. The next morning, i would argue, the Republican Party was forever changed. And in many ways its almost also foreshadowing even the Tea Party Movement today. I mean, libertarianism, profound philosophical and emotional antipathy toward government distrust of government which for the last 50 years on the left and on the right has had no shortage of evidence to back it up. So, Larry Rockefeller, you were there that day, that night when Nelson Rockefeller spoke. I was bear witness and its all true. I was, having been on the campaign trail both with the candidate and just on my own and philistine. How old were you at that time . I was 19. You are a College Student going up three of the universe around you right . Brother bill weld and i were college classmates in fact and this is the 60s. Worse than that. We were fraternity mates. [laughter] sounds like the establishment to me. [laughter] anyhow, ive been out there also in New Hampshire campaigning, oregon. There i was at the cow palace with my aunt because this extraordinary scene which, you know, the Television Clips dont really convey the volume and animosity an extraordinary anger they are. People standing on their chairs and veins bulging, shaking their fists. You know, so this went on and and so through some well, your time is up and nelson was not going to budge and you could just see the hair on the back of his neck. How far were you from him . Well, we were up in the stands, you know, but we could see. Had a direct line. Yes. Did happy say anything during the . Well, you know, if this was so compelling, we were sort of frozen watching this. But he was going to say his piece, and they could not get them off of there. Then, of course, the next night was when goldwater came back and said well extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Well, that sort of sealed the deal, only to be tapped by lbjs daisy ad where a girl was picking petals off a daisy and then morphs into a countdown into an atomic bomb going off. To drive home the point, yeah extremism is not a good thing to have in the presidency. So thats my observation. Ill have something to say about that. First, i want to ask you both before go to governor weld. Richard, i think you say in the book that rockefeller loved the fact obligation to give said, im having the time of my life. And, larry, do you remember is being accelerated by this . Did you speak to them after this . Either or both of you talk about that. He was a competitive guy. Some close to them said to me if youd been born on the Lower East Side he would then have been the best street brawl or of anyone. He welcomed a good fight and intellectual fight, a political fight, and there was something about him if you look at the youtube clips, and urge you all, you can see at some point he gets into the rhythm of this thing. He is a taunting them. Where were you at that moment . 1964. I was a classmate of larrys but i think i was probably paid more attention to my duties as a member of a fraternity. [laughter] i remember reading teddys ipo, making of the president in 1964 which is a sequel of the making of a president of 1960. Goldwater starts with searching description would of the chief delegate under goldwater and it really was true that its a geographic element there. It did feel that eastern establishment have too powerful for too long and have been hijacking the goods from them. When bill clinton nominated me to go to mexico as ambassador jesse helme take my shape it wasnt really because he thought i would be soft on drugs in mexico. He hated everything i stood for and starting with being prochoice and proand worst of all having gone to harvard. [laughter] they got uncle malson didnt go to harvard. Where did it go to college . As the data webster. The made after couple things before we move on. One is a new glad larry proud of Barry Goldwaters famous word when he spoke but he said let me remind you that extremism in defense of justice and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue. The interesting thing about those remarks is if you take them out of the context of that superheated moment there are actually ideas most of us might agree with. For instance if we look at the days of stalin assumed with a if we are trying to stop the bullet crisis, they say you know what, maybe we should go as far as we can go. The reason i mentioned that if i spoke with the author of those. It is one of the greatest political thinkers of the modern era who was a student of leo strauss. The political philosopher and had actually been a liberal republican and supporter Charles Percy who changed his mind in this. When the Republican Party was undergoing a revolution. He sided on the platform debate in the word extremist theyve come up over and over again. So he wrote this speech for Barry Goldwater. If you take it out of context if you look at the words on the page, what they actually wrote with a defensive natural right that the political philosopher like leo strauss might express. The difference was they came at this very supercharged political moment and its the difference between philosophy and politics. As soon as the word extremist and, which presented as a virtue at that moment, the Republican Party came in a different theme. Again come you cannot divorce it from the broader context. In 1964 we were two years away from having survived the cuban missile crisis. As republicans met in San Francisco after research was going on in mississippi for murdered civil rights workers from the north, extremism is not an extraction. We saw on our tv screens. We had seen it in birmingham with police dogs and water hoses and to the extent that goldwater, fairly or unfairly got turned with the brash racism unreliability his finger was on the nuclear button, all of those factors came into play. He didnt have to confirm the worst image people had and chose to do so by using they knew the moment he said it that it was lost. Let me ask you, we look at politics now and actually Barry Goldwater over time looks a little better. He was very tolerant because he was a libertarian. He was some of the first they will remember when there was debate about letting gays serve in the military. It has been removed from our politics now. Governor weld wiretap Politics Today . Would we think about a Libertarian Movement or an antigovernment politics, is that something thats not become distract you to the way Society Works . I always describe myself in office says the governor has libertarian and i wasnt entirely joking. One reason i was for lower taxes is because they resent and coercive about taxes. If you can reduce the tax bite that is procitizen and perhaps at the expense of the government. I always used to say there is no such thing as government money. Theres only taxpayers money. On the social issues i was a rabid on abortion rights and gays writes. Im a rabid liberal on immigration. Anybody that isnt has not for the page of history. So that really a fiscal conservatives and im pretty conservative on crime issues because of my time as a prosecutor but a liberal on everything also not discussed a lot of people in the northeast United States. Im pretty much at home here. When i worked in the Justice Department under reagan in washington as we sat around the conference table every morning one half of the people were selfdescribed libertarians. The other half were selfdescribed Movement Conservatives who were very attractive people, who all were Federalist Society ties in refilled. Hatred is not too strong of a word. There is a lot of negativity there and that is what is unappealing about the tea party. I personally think most of the people that see party or just people who are spending fatigue and taxation fatigue and they are not led by social issues. There is a few who get out there and make a lot of noise to give the tea party a bad name. My hope is that under these if they are discovered to be libertarians, itll be interesting seeing what happens with rand paul in 2016 because he is going to make a bid. I cant see ever getting there because the foreignpolicy issues. A lot of other people may not care about Foreign Policy and senator paul may have some showing. Larry rockefeller, you sent me and add that you may for a gubernatorial candidate in new york. That is not a republican. Yeah, that is true. Maybe partly inspired by the convention there which is one of the last unscripted convention and as a result ive remained one of the last remaining Rockefeller Family republicans but i stayed but has been willing to speak up from time to time. In new york, the republican candidate, you know, as opposed to the right to choose their Marriage Equality and even for common sense background checks on guns. So i did that and you know there it is. Go ahead. This actually feeds into a larger ratio, which is the frustration so many people feel today. People who dont define themselves first and foremost by ideology. People who were not terribly comfortable wearing the label. People who are pragmatists problem solvers who feel very comfortable with a conservative patient on some issues in the liberal position on others. The fact of the matter is that the rockefeller republican yet although you may not use the phrase that has become almost a pejorative for at least an oxymoron. The fact of the matter is tens of billions of people frustrated with the oversimplification of the political process are in fact rockefeller republicans. But the parties that were totally different. 50 years ago there was the rockefeller wing of the Republican Party. They were liberal republicans not just in massachusetts. They were to be found all over the country. By the same token, they were conservative democrats. Particularly in the south, but not limited to this house. I think one of the reasons why so many people today are so turned off is because aspirin is about an Barry Goldwater to each got their wish, they each got the homogenized cohesive to the plaintiff. The. So you have a truly conservative party, a truly liberal party and guess what, that fails to account for millions of people who dont want to adopt if the state view of the world had Something Else to add to that. First of all why you are referring to is fdr in 1944, what this country really needs is a liberal party and the conservative party because he was being thwarted by southern democrats in the senate in particular. He thought it would be an advantage if the two parties are more ideologically aligned. Guess why, he got what he wished for. We have this moment today. An interesting aspect and governor weld will know what very well because the absurd battle over his nomination. Until recently, the conservatives seem to have a stranglehold on the senate and the house is actually the more diverse body and know that its changed somehow. Why is that . Why do we have a house that seems more conservative than the senate quiet i think the interesting thing in the Republican Party as the two wings are the governors main and the washington wing. Not so much a distinction between house and senate. The wonderful thing about Nelson Rockefeller. I consider him with al smith in new york, two of my favorite politicians. The reason they are favorites is because they went out and said what are the problems besetting the people in this that im going to solve that problem. That is the epitome of Nelson Rockefeller as mr. Smiths biography lingers on not going. The way he got jurisdiction in Family Matters in political matters what he would see what had to be done. People would have to follow along with the law of the case and governors are right in front of the people they represent. Theyre not 500 miles away. If they dont go out and find out the problem and solve it their constituents will know right away and vote them out of office. Mix them all so definition much more practical. My former colleague, Charlie Baker and fields in the handson guy. Hes a policy wonk. He is a restless intellects like Nelson Rockefeller and he will be very much one of those solve the problem type of people if he gets into office. That is a distinction i jog between the house and senate. Well it is interesting to say that until recently the assumption was that governors would always have the inside track on president ial nomination and election. 2008, no matter who won, a senator would be elected president. The first since john kennedy had before him Warren Harding and those are the only three have done at work jump from the senate to the white house and now we look at it. Where senators seem to have little to their own basis as president ial figures, whether its brand paul or ted cruz and if anybody has anything to say about why this is happening . What happened to the great age of the executive governor . Well, maybe it will come back. It is true. Theres a problem that could be solved in now is in the pragmatic tradition of Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt and its a really brilliant book. So spot on accurate, fascinating part of American History brings out. Fdr actually was a hero and role model. One of the republicans never forgave him. Speak that well, okay. As to your question, maybe you will return in the future. The pendulum will swing back. I would agree with larry. And well come back in the Republican Party. The nominee will not be one of these. It is going to be a jeb bush or mitt romney or scott walker or chunky thick. The governor that could be an advantage for the republicans in 2016 for the reasons i was getting into. Governors know that they need to measure outcomes improvement in peoples lives. Not inputs, which is how big is the budget item. I think they could carry in 2016. One of the fascinating about that one wouldve taken for granted years ago but now its almost a shock is that Nelson Rockefeller, not at the president ial level. Who is a brilliant campaigner in new york for governor, but what he really likes his governments, that is what he thought it was all about. I like the campaigning. [laughter] in some ways nelsons finest hours one minute every two people would think in the abstract. It is funny because there are people with long memories who in the mid60s fought what today we could not conceive the and heroic battle to inactive sales tax. The idea being if you want ask an honest government, lets be honest and pay for it and not satellite children and grandchildren with the debt. 1966 nelson ran for a third term. He starts out as he always did, 30 points behind anyone because all the people could think of for texas. There is no doubt that taxes have gone up. The extraordinary thing about that campaign, which may be the most brilliant and modern American History is because Nelson Rockefeller spent going around new york state, convincing people that the taxes they paid for producing tangible benefits. The Great University he built community colleges, a billion dollars bond issue. Spending more money to firefighter pollution than the federal government did nationally. The hudson river today in new york harbor may not be pristine but the fact that they are what they are began. Program after program is a different era. It is a republican version of the great society. But it was the kind of government busted rockefeller wouldve been. The media allowed him the luxury of making a sustained intellectual statistically argument. What do you mean they allowed them to do with . You couldnt do it today. The amoral Campaign Advisers would tell you all the reasons why. Last nights poll showed you cant talk about this. Im not talking about massachusetts, but how many campaigns this year are noted for the substance. How many people talk about the future . Cable tv unfortunately to degree has set the tone of discourse. We dont mean cspan. That proves the rule of afraid. Go online and look at the campaign commercials. I just stick with campaign commercials. Theres no contest. They are predictable, et cetera. They insult your intelligence. In 1966, Nelson Rockefeller had a slew of the most clever substantive argument advancing commercials. They were the talking fish who told about how much his life had improved since the governors Water Pollution offers. There is a 60 seconds of highway shot from above, moving to the music of a hawaiian luau. Governor rockefeller had built enough for us to go to honolulu in that. On a nonas talks to people. They entertained at the same time believe it or not they informed and persuaded. Richard, i was living in new york at the time and the opponent was Frank Oconnor who is head of the city council of new york city. So there was one ad 62nd rockefeller added during the baseball games which is all he ever watched india was three shots of white coffee on a black screen. The first was and this is statewide. Frank oconnor from new york city is running for governor. Site number two. Frank oconnor says he thinks the subways in new york city should be free. Slide three. Guess who he thinks should pay for them . Nobody outside the five boroughs could go for Frank Oconnor after that at. Speed mackey also made the case how government can work for you and that is something todays Republican Party is i just dont much mileage further for an approach to start as the phrase came in president reagans terms. Cut the deficit. Cut the budget browser and cause Government Programs to be unfunded. What has since been infrastructure continues to crumble . We need to pay for this to make it work. Is there some way which Nelson Rockefeller in your boat richer is the first big roosevelt and harry truman you really have to be a democrat. And that is running for president are thinking of it. Natalie stephenson said Nelson Rockefeller is a great liberal. Is there some way he comes out of a progressive movements in politics that we will have to achieve a cad before the Republican Party miss in this direction . A day after the 1956 election that Eisenhower Nixon won a landslide over adlai stevenson. Nelson rockefeller writes a letter to nixon who before they became adversaries have been allies in the eisenhower administration. He writes to nixon and congratulate them on to victory and says he together with the president are making the Republican Party a Great Liberal Party of the future. Those are two words. Liberal in future that we associate with todays Republican Party. The fact is guesswork because history goes a certain way we think that is the only way history couldve gone. In 1956 Dwight Eisenhower carried 40 of the africanamerican vote, a majority of catholic voters. It wasnt very cold water broke the democratic south. It was Dwight Eisenhower. With the same year carried a majority of southern electoral votes. Thats the history that could have been. Race intervened in a major way something as seemingly ordinary as a telephone pole from the kennedy kim which is Martin Luther king in 1960 at the time dr. King had been arrested expressing their concern on nixon remained conspicuously silent. Which is not to say the kennedys were so progressive. Our own Henry Cabot Lodge who nixon put on his ticket back erin with all due respect may be the overly demonstrable example of a modern Vice President ial candidate who cost the ticket though, both for good reason he went up to harlem and promised there would be an africanamerican in the cabinet if Richard Nixon became president. Which do it into a tailspin, which is symptomatic of their problems. The republican platform in 1960 contains the strongest civil rights in the history of the party. But guess what appeared Richard Nixon went to atlanta a 125,000 people. He could taste republican that three in the south than in the end he couldnt decide whether he wanted to be Henry Cabot Lodge. To some extent he tried to be both. He put the first affirmative action policies of government didnt try to appoint segregation in the Supreme Court when he became president. Governor weld lets talk about the future. What does the Republican Party look like to you now . How similar or different as they seem the party you were a major figure in . At the governors were indifferent to the offended as i whispered it in i may be getting old. Ive done. Ive done two events with governor dukakis in the last week. I may be coming around it about what government can do for you. Michael dukakis and i were meeting with a group to support the Boston Harbor islands because we think weve doubled the usable area in the city of boston that came in part because of creating the locks of the sea and knocking down barriers to the Boston Harbor. Until we did that, nobody knew the islands were there and it was not a source of recreation. I think that is going to be seen in retrospect as the biggest thing since the filling in of the back in terms of the topographical history of boston. That is something government can do for you and it is a story governors will tell because theyve been there and done nothing but through it. Its not like they were in washington and cast a vote and the tangible benefits fell 1500 miles away. I hate to sound pollyannaish, but that is the direction i see the Republican Party going in. Larry, if you were to look at new york state, anyone in the Republican Party or do you nationally Nelson Rockefeller, the ones that richard had articulated so eloquently here. We have governor pataki for 12 years who assisted me but republican governor. In the National Scene i thought for a while may be the party would crash and burn but it may be Congress Might have a republican majority and the chance for republican governor becoming president bush or romney that theres a different way for it to work just as eisenhower pointed out couldve done with the president leading a new, more positive pragmatic direction that could be not to say thats going to have to. Are we ready to go to some questions . Series your moment. That question would be a question. If its not i was rudely interrupted turn in into one. While we are getting somebody i had not realized how much eisenhower disliked rockefeller. At one point they said governor youve got opposed that eisenhower. He says yet, but that i hate me. And they actually did the photos of neighboring usable. Rockefeller said c. [laughter] it is a shame. Im peep or they shouldve been allies. They were comfortable in the same area of the political spectrum, but you know they have profound differences of principle. Nelson rockefeller was a serial alarmist. In the 30s he was sounding the alarm about the threat and latin america. But in the 50s, he was also an ardent prowarrior who believe Dwight Eisenhower Dwight Eisenhower was not adequately tending to the nations military substance. Theres an amazing scene in the book where they both attend one of these topsecret one ssierra meetings of meetings where everyone sits around and predict 10 years in advance try to imagine was soviet military strength satellite versus american deleterious strain. Rockefeller founded alarming he can as we Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles and sputnik was in the air. As soon as they started, the alarmist and nelson took over. Outside the meeting he pulled the president aside and said youve got to go on tv. Youve got to use the bully pulpit. You have to in fact spend your immense credibility of prestige as the man who wanted to abort and tell the American People how much sacrifice theyre going to have to accept. For years to come this message and Eisenhower Buchan said wiretowire was have to be the one to bring the bad news to the people . We have a question right here. Here at the jfk library and other personal hero of mine and he picked up a Nelson Rockefellers commission recommendations. The two of them couldve been running against each other had things worked out differently. Those of you who dont remember, john f. Kennedy ran to the right in 1960. Yes, sir. At the Double Barrel question for governor weld. The first barrel as i have probably a handful of friends that i can tolerate to describe themselves as libertarians. None of them has ever been able to describe to me how being a libertarian is consistent with being interested in eating government. So that is the first one. The second question is on your remarks that texas has somehow and that question is how is that more coercive than the grover north quest and not to if all the republicans who decided to splurge never have any taxes when our infrastructure is sending towards third world status and we need to do things that are good proposals, including private public, which is probably going to lose the republicans senatorial seat they couldve had a North Carolina because the republican candidate is being undercut. So how is refusing to raise the tax less coercive on the population . I got it. I got it. On the first on the first barrel, i think one of my favorite political philosopher is as a guide named louis hartz, who is a harvard professor. He wouldve book called the founding of new societies antistalking about the essence of democracy. He said the essence of democracy is the individual shall not be thrust in a corner and that summons up all kinds of thing about minority rights and majority rule and i really do agree with him when i see the full force of government power being brought to bear to thrust an individual into a corner, it just really gets my goat. Early on in my tenure i spent a lot of time with gays and groups who talked about what it is like having to hide out in underground bars and it was like eat and drink in hitlers germany. Youre always fighting. The immigration issues get similarly exercised today. There are people in the shadows. Theyre afraid of the government. That is not good for the policy if for no other reason than prudential reasons we need to vastly liberalized our immigration system. Those are all things i was interested in getting into government to do. On the socalled conservative side, the french anarchist as you may recall declared that property is theft and one waggish moments i turn that around and said that actually coercive taxation is theft. It is not fast because theyve elected is not best because weve elected the consent of the government as a defense to that charge. In law school and thereafter i was quite a voracious reader of Friedrich Hayek who wrote the road to serfdom. If we are not careful, we wont have all these wonderful freedoms that we have. So that is why a libertarian could want to be close to or engaged in government. Ill add a couple of things to that. One is that if you just go back to the origins of the republic and excellent historians and Political Writer is like jerry wells has written about this and that is a necessary evil. There has always been america than a suspicion of a powerful government. Its one reason they were formed an anticolonial and antimonarchism jefferson called his anarchist monograph and called one himself. That is a long strain in our culture, not just her politics. Sometimes there is a tenant to you to think what we hear a labeled as libertarianism is some being to the higher values in the society. It is not necessarily. If either of you would like to compliment on not that would be great. Something as simple as the 10th amendment to the constitution which basically reserves to the states all powers not expressly enumerated to the federal government. Theres no doubt that those who wrote the constitution and wouldve ever been ratified by for the expectation that a man who voluntarily walked away from the crowd. Someone who could be entrusted to limit his own personal use or abuse of power would be fair to interpret it and give it legitimacy. There is no doubt that the arguments in philadelphia saw a constitution as means of limiting government defining limits protecting liberty however defined. Weve got another question. To comment on the end of that doctrine the rise of british style advocacy journalism in the country and the effect on polarity of the party. Great question. Who wants to go first . It has been corrosive and pervasive at the same time as competing those as well work at our informational silos. Any thoughts about that . We watch very Little Television except for sports. [laughter] i am unscarred by the fairness doctrine. And also as a libertarian, my view is a lot of rubbish on tv. The web. The playoffs. Let them play. Where were you when citizens united, the decision the court made . The one that listed and essentially overturned . I think its been bashevis. Do think the decision was mischievous . Yeah. It is a real impact. Various states have a Constitutional Convention. Larry lessig at harvard thinks thats the single most poisonous aspect of our democracy is the influx of Huge Campaign study. Nelson rockefeller wouldve disagreed. The Constitutional Convention of the professor has written a hundred years ago at the height of the progressive era a bottleneck sense of frustration as special interest controlled United States senate one of them being for whom governor rockefeller was named. The answer to this was the United States senators. Everybody gets before that. Senators were chosen by state legislators. There were purchasable by the economic powers that be. The senate has to approve the cons additional amendment and there was very little chance the senate was going to in effect find it so disparate imperviousness. What happened was the grassroots National Movement arose to call a Constitutional Convention specifically about this issue and they got one state and then the senate points. But that is what it is to break the political log jam 100 years ago. For the super geeks in the audience, article v of the constitution says theres actually two ways to change the constitution. One is its ratified in congress and on the state further ratified, but also the states themselves and call for it. Two thirds of the number you need. Yes, maam. Invited president ford in 1976 [inaudible] this megawatt is one of those sweaters. I personally doubtful. This is Nelson Rockefeller prosodic. The prison uprising was put down and over the years unfortunately people have completed the horrible conditions. His refusal to go and negotiate on tv with outside observers who were in fact anything but observing. And of course the retaking was botched and all of that came together and basically he was blamed. Is what many people in new york it is much, much more complicated than that. I think his political field even in new york, 15 years, can you imagine being governor of any Major Industrial complex entity for 15 years. Not even eight out of a think about it. [laughter] the reason why he dropped in, which by the way he publicly confessed to having been the one instance his political life. He greatly regretted it. People had badly underestimated personal governors appear he was going to have. The Early Campaign is going badly. They been through several campaign managers. They were raising money. This is challenging in 1975 76. It is fair to say Donald Rumsfeld and Nelson Rockefeller were put on the planet to kiss each other off and each succeeded. There was another guy. Richard cheney. Governor rockefeller i am told by people who were there in the morning he would walk five rumsfelds Office Opened the door, stick his head in and shout, rummy, youre never going to be Vice President , knowing or believing that is exactly what rumsfeld hopes in 1976. Rumsfeld was only one of a number who convinced the president that unless he dumps nelson, that they could very well lose the nomination to break in. Theres a very good chance that they were right. How many of you remember that challenge when they came very close . He played the ultimate good soldier. Ironically in the end both the rockefeller supply pennsylvania and publicly she was the ultimate good soldier. Privately, the only time i could find he gave into frustration within the liberal republican senator from maryland told him a day after to commiserate. In the best of his condolences, he said he would want to hang around anyway. [laughter] i know in his later years im just wondering did you find it was genuine evolution . We all agree he was a pragmatist. He was not an ideologue. That works both ways. For example, for example, overtime coverage ran for governor in 1958, sworn to oppose any welfare residency. In fact he imposed that position on the Republican Party. But as he left albany 15 years later, he was hosting the fact for the First Time Since world war ii, the overall welfare piece had been produced. That is pragmatism. It can also be frankly increasingly conservative. It is needed on the watch and by 1970 and was able to relax buckley to the United States senate. I would argue nothing remained a liberal and activist in the research and government capacities and more obligation to bring about social justice to the end of his life. Being a practical politician who hope to extend his tenure in office he was rather skillful in moving with the times and the fact that the people of new york to him four times in the fourth time by the biggest projects with just that they are perfectly comfortable with where he was. Do you see moving to the right place probably so. Had he become president , i think he wouldve been a terrific president. The law decide and the magnificent box sets it all out and its a fascinating saga and i recommend it to you. Something Henry Kissinger said one that essentially created Henry Kissinger for better or worse, that he said Nelson Rockefeller was a great reader of men. [inaudible] everything was fast. He could get excited about a tuna fish sandwich. He was the best youve ever had. Some of that was communicated. Quick story, which presents the duality of demand and then you could go home. He was very close to his mother from whom he got his openness to ideas and people and of course she created a sea of modern art. Anyway, i was told when she died he kept her ashes in a room. And mrs. Rockefeller was kind enough to spend some time with me and she gave me a tour of the house. I asked her its true. But how could that be quiet at this ashes were interred in the family cemetery. She said nelson just reached in and grabbed a handful. [laughter] that suggests two things to me. One an almost childlike lack of selfconscious which helps to explain why he was such a dynamite campaigner. He could walk into anything and he was as comfortable. But it also suggests a sense of entitlement that borders on the creepy. You can imagine where that goes in a wouldbe president. Yes sir. [inaudible] i think we are of course taking a look at what we are willing to pay in Foreign Policy today. I was wondering is there a difference between what the republican priority and the rest of the Republican Party and the Democratic Party what are the differences in policy today to bring back to Nelson Rockefeller and the activities regarding the different stances . Did not governor you were talking before that about red pols grandpas Foreign Policy. Im not an expert at all. My sense is he would not be as much as the negation of camp as they gone. Or i would need. I do believe in constructive engagement. Secretary clinton and secretary kerry is very good and strong where the has flagged a little bit setting of markers are not following through. That runs like a virus through the community of international opinion. I spent a reasonable amount of time in the middle east and the arab countries over there watch like a hawk everything the United States does. Every time the United States does not follow through on something that says its going to do its true with little countries like albania and mongolia. I spent two months in mongolia a couple years ago in connection with the business mining enterprises. The whole world watches every time the president of the United States this eyebrow. Here is a question. Have we entered a moment where the United States doesnt have the local authority it did . I think in 1959 by paul shows seven out of 10 americans expected in a minute Nuclear Attack as the results of which Nelson Rockefeller wanted to build fallout shelters all over america nos high anxiety. But at the same time the confidence of American Power the kind of thing governor sabonis talking about. What we now nostalgically called the American Century the period after world war ii through the cold war. We were hurt by syria. I dont think president obama wants to describe the earth like a colossus. A lot of other people are so sickened by what is going on around the globe to the move away from constructive engagement, which is a bad development. Have we lost some of the authority to engage . If you mean sending in the rain, its questionable the authority size show interest. I think we are in a murky twilight. Good winner crosscurrents outwork. People questioned the validity of wars in iraq and afghanistan is the same as they call it patriotism principal engagement, whatever you call it, there were Many Americans who expect a president to be bolder more assertive, just to be on the bully pulpit explaining the situation if nothing else. One of the surprising digs too many of us who quite frankly admire the president and his intellect and his willingness they would never make predictions. There will be kinder to this president than we are today and part because the fact that the nixon administration, whoever it is will have to deal with the same issues. Just as george w. Bush has come. It is not what we expected the presidency. For different media market. It is a thing of the past if you need Teddy Roosevelt arthurs lesson sure fdr jfk. In 1970 Richard Nixons white house could is how we said we have a lot of good people and richard extend the speak about vietnam at a time when he could move to another. This 10 or 12 points in whatever direction he wanted. That is gone. And yet spiro agnew made the case that the networks were biased. Is a very politically shrewd. A factually questionable case. We have one last question. My question is apart from president eisenhower what to Nelson Rockefellers think of other presidency encountered and what did each of them think of him . One reason they write the book is because it took that long to get through the outer defenses. It would be on compartmentalizing his life. He liked to quote his father who never saw more surface than needed. His own daughter is quoted as saying somewhat i wish we have a friend of the family, knew him as well as the voters of new york. Why did he keep flirted with running for president in 1960 and 68 and not do it . Why did he not go to attica . This at this too inserted himself in to every imaginable situation. I found a quote about 12 years into this. He was in trust for 12 million so he decided he would write a memoir, make some cash. He didnt write the book but it did over 500 pages in all history. And if there is a sentence that comes closer than anything else and he said that whenever i found myself in a position where i was uncomfortable and i was probably willing to pull back until such time as i felt i could be in control. That it seems to me humanized is not an rockefeller more than anything he said. It suggests vulnerabilities in the men that were at least the equal of his soaring ambition. But it also raises several questions about what kind of candidate or president he would have been. Why . Nelson rockefeller never got over Franklin Roosevelt. There was an inscribed picture of fdr in his office. He was a very great man and he explained how she understood as roosevelt had understood the democratic system with their inequities you have to be willing in a proactive way to identify and address those inequities you have to be a performer to prevent revolution. That is the message he chose. He wasnt running as john kennedy or Richard Nixon cared he was running against the ghost of Franklin Roosevelt. It was fdr who is the president. He could never quite imagined himself. For all of his apparent selfconfidence, all of his busy at them, all this resource and talent and accomplishment, there was some a knee held back from identifying not with fdr but equalizing himself for fdr. How could you not want to breed. [applause] thank you all everyone in the audience as well. [applause]. Of cannibals. Please welcome offm [applause] hi. Thanks so much for coming out today. Ive always wanted to give a sermon in a church