So it was the town who did it. Thank you. [applause] good evening. Im the Program Director here at the town hall and its my pleasure to welcome you to this evenings event presented by by telephone and University Bookstore as part of the seattle lectures. The purpose to of the caucuses by microsoft sponsorship provided. Our program will run for about 40 minutes tonight and after that we will have time for questions. We ask that you come to the microphones at the end of the stage so we can pick you up for the recording we are making and also that cspan is making. So brighter than usual tonight and then tonights program will be available through the Media Library on the website and then after the qanda books at the bookstore table on the other sides of the curtains here in the town hall cafe space will stay open for another few minutes if you want to chat about what weve heard tonight. Before i introduced against i want to mention a couple other events that might be of interest. The fall season is in full swing but i want to let you know that we have the british naturalist here to talk about bees, creatures and the effect of Climate Change and david is coming over from i believe they live in england but also have a farmhouse in france so he doesnt get to the states that often so october 27 the seismologists joins seismologist joins us to discuss the seismic mysteries of the continent of antarctica so i would encourage you to come to that as well. Also in october and town hall we are bringing your conversation between the naturalistcommander of scientist david pinker, Roberta Kaplan on the defeat and a short story in life with Bonnie Campbell just a few of the many programs that are part of the eclectic and enlightening townhall calendar three and the best way to keep up in the program is to become a member starts at just 45 offers discounts on purchases and mail copy of the monthly calendar. But more importantly it provides more than 400 events annually at affordable ticket prices. You can do that online or chat with the staff and if youre already a member here we would like to thank you for being a part of our committee. After tonights guests. Philip has been working on Energy Issues since 1973. Hes the president of the Conservation Foundation and the leading environmental and to see group from 2003 to 2009 and before that he directed the union for environmental dissent in tel aviv. Hes the author of two books being harvested when americas journey to jobs and Energy Dependence and climate stability. He appears with dennis who is president of the Public Foundation and Environmental Foundation and environmental activist and was formerly the head of the National RenewableEnergy Laboratory during the Carter Administration and the gentleman will have a conversation that is about a subject important to both of them, solar power, the new book is harnessed this on americas quest for the solar powered future subpoenas offer a warm welcome for philip and dennis. Ask [applause] thank you very much. Is this microphone working . Great to be here. I should confess up front that we have been friends for very a very long time. I actually looked it up and it turns out that when i met phil, 90 of the people and world hasnt yet been born. [laughter] for those of you that dont know the Conservation Foundation if we went through that kind of quickly that is part of some serious street credibility if you were to take the Washington Environmental Council and the oregon Environmental Council and merge them all together and double the resources that is sort of the Conservation Foundation. I think its safe to say that we have a serious player here and in addition to leading the meeting the Environmental Group in israel he also helped design the first legislation say hes been in the trenches for a long time and has a lot of wisdom and im thrilled and delighted to spend time with him but if you came expecting to see William Buckley taking on at all its a little bit friendlier than that but i will still see if i can trip them up every now and then. [laughter] so the journey begins in your own home in massachusetts. How is that working out . You have to go in the winter and brushed the snow off . We installed our solar system in march of 2013 and it was actually two days after the classic new england snowstorm that i expected they would show up at all. They did show up and he had been in iraq he were better in and he looked up at the roof which was a slope and i said have you ever installed on the roof before and he shook his head and they attached at the end of a harrowing day the system was in place and we now get 75 of the power and that includes charging power plug in electric vehicle every night so we are doing pretty well. One of the reasons they are doing so well is they actually work better in Colder Weather as long as they are not covered in snow which they are sometimes you produce a lot of solar energy. I didnt realize how steep the roof was when i asked that question. You met with dozens of people. What are a couple of the most interesting things that you encountered . We are all accustomed to Renewable Energy as a progressive issue. Part of the measure that we need to take to get to a more Sustainable Energy future so one would expect to support solar energy im very happy that the former congressman wonderful but predictable but that wasnt the quote. [laughter] snack thats true. But a lot less predictable is that people like the former congressman Barry Goldwater was a congressman from california then headed up the Group Utilities will be killed and its a very kind of libertarian Perspective Group that is basically saying that home owners and businesses have the right to generate their own solar energy and should be able to kind of fight off the giant utility monopolies and should be compensated. People like that are among the surprise and i can tell you about a mayor in california as well if you like. The town in california called lancaster was known as a Warfare Center for many years until 2008 when a rightwing republican law and order guy class action litigator was elected on a crimefighting platform and very proudly told me that he had put 20,000 suspended gang members behind bars during his first years in office. I suspect he didnt think he was suspected. And if you join the gang the constitution just doesnt apply to you. So thats that kind of hardnosed political perspective he also brings to address the Climate Change issue and could force the fact that fellow republicans have decided Climate Change is an issue that is off balance. It is a real issue and when he was in china several years ago he stood up before the group diplomats and said i just want to tell you about the city of manchester california because its going to be the Solar Capital of the world. Went back to lancaster and getting Solar Installed on all public buildings there is now a code in place that requires that every residential unit either has solar on it or gets power to the unit and the projection is that through those measures and other measures including the steel development, lancaster will be a net Solar Energy Producer and exporter within the next couple of years. You were able to make the coalition for convenience without necessarily agreeing on everything which i think is a great many of us that are thrilled and delighted with the comments. Our views didnt find himself in perfect. [laughter] there are lots out there. One was released today by the sierra club that a vast percentage of americans choose solar as their Energy Source followed by wind and conservation so it can be covering the desert. As you look at the array of things that would follow that pattern having looked at is this all pretty carefully now some sense of which ones you bet on as the longterm winners. Bears are coming to most Promising Technology here and now. It is the First Six Months of this year. If you look at the newly installed electric during the period, 39 of it came from solar. You have Renewable Resources generating three quarters of the capacity during the First Six Months of this year and we think of it is the easy way to go not from an environment for perspective but we have cheap gas so lets build a gas the gas turbines and worry about the environment somewhere down the road. It amounted to about 21 during this period so thats a promising sign. New technologies are coming in we can be aware of where some of those technologies are going. We tend to focus upon the technologies come on the economics that are in the end being able to create something that doesnt have broad public opposition in the Power Sources today its an enormous asset in the field and we should go help a little bit in the Solar Technologies as well but first in terms of what i think you have been a big fan of developing brownfields but putting solar out on brownfields can you talk of old out of . We have a division called recovering americas land, and that division has looked at americas Ground Resources but for those of you that are not familiar it sort of means but it sounds like. Contaminated with potentially contaminated properties. They might have been former mining areas, a former mining areas, factories, landfills and the like. I wish i could say it has solved the crime problem on the outside unfortunately the major source at that facility is falling from the sky about was the Environmental Health hazard is now reproductive environmentally responsible all economic advantageous facility there are a lot of facilities like that around the country. There is real controversy with those mature areas but they had been emotional appeal with the biodiversity or attachment. They have the potential to develop this solar. Were at a point in our history we have to develop everything we can and ideally we have to focus on our environment the laboratory has estimated we could be getting our deeds from rooftop solar alone. And i think we want to push the frontier well beyond that and it is the great opportunity this an area that is partially formed with a wildlife values with the california serengeti with the giant king rat. With that corporation that developed this facility that was during construction site they also created interloped through the field also with 12,000 acres. That is the great example of a company that has gone above and beyond while building a facility of 1400 acres of solar panels. And how much we let farmers do ranchers get away with it although we do need to be vigilant we have to be cognizant of a resource and how badly we have screwed them up with your recent book if you look very closely in that regard. This is all about harnessing the sun. Sova talk about other competing uses for land. In the plants and have grown on the ever the plants that always have. And it would be possible easily for wind and solar as well. Their roofs of buildings as head distributive energy it is possible to harvest from the west wall and the east wall but what did he started to have access a m has a Real Energy Transition every 48 or 50 years. But if we got serious about this because what we see right out is between 22 and 27 between 60 and 65 . But that factor could change significantly Going Forward. Talk about integrated reptiles with much improved efficiency with onefifth of the total power needs. But if we institute the right to regulation of but one of the places is a football stadium but the percentage decrease through the Gillette Stadium is from houston texas. I asked what i thought would be a question he said i dont because of my Homeowners Association there will quickly went on line after september 1st the governor signed a bill thats now they have to adopt that. We do need to say those kinds of reform spirit we have seen a lot of industries that have changed radically in recent years. With mixed results a few destructors here in seattle. If you have distributive power do you have ideas and has reduced the debt in the future . The job of utilities has been to generate electricity as a nearly defined role and worked pretty well where return on the plant but it has a natural variation we have to get much smarter and the utilities have to wake up to that challenge. And they did not wake up to the digital era so it has to become energy services. There is some iconoclast in the utility sector better very candid that will transform itself and were already seeing some struggles so there will have to be utility involvement in the use and demand resources we will see a very different feeling of utilities. It then most of the policies. If you ask anybody in the field what is your favorite stock Prices Energy is almost after 65 will street doesnt feel the same way about this transition as a buying opportunity . The one of the things that is happening it is facing huge uncertainty of the key Government Policies thinking of oil and gas and nuclear as a federal subsidy over back decades it incentives that are provided to day have a federal investment tax credit that applies to businesses. It will expire at the end of 2016 for homes. And it is a huge hit to the industry you cannot run a Manufacturing Sector with and reliability it in order to make it worth your while in a factory. There is no utility scale to stop thinking of that fundamental change of the tax code. But if you have to press the political representatives for what we have taken for granted. From washington d. C. To a houston but something that is almost unknown by anybody for a brief period of time from the National Petroleum council as the ceos during the course of bad i would think did you explain to me the drilling cost . It is just money in their pocket. Rationale. Selfie tavis older pitcher can we get even Playing Field with coal and oil . Had to take a vintage of that . They call it quite tangible. It involved people renting solar equipment this is just what we do this to mean that there is the dominant model Going Forward right now that thirdparty power Purchase Agreement is a great advantage for those the one the whole and ginger root generated solar power. And then to give a set price 72 is by that arrangement today. With the power generated by that equipment that is a way to brighten those demographics for those that enjoys solar but how do we reach to the low income solar to provide that economic benefit and also the environmental benefit they have 300 million allocated for housing with a nonprofit entity called grid alternative to give people a wonderful gift with electric bills to pay. There would have a very difficult time if not impossible with really high rates of interest but rates of interest but revenue discuss solar there is something there was some skepticism of its been very attractive the autonomous electrified vehicles, or all of the data centers and that will save a lot of energy but what do you think of the denominator Going Forward . I think it is part of human nature and that worries me very much to say and look at what solar power can do. But then what percentage of though whole will that be . In real not in a better position and i think the selfie trading card is the technology with innovative application so to already know one of the major new energy data centers for whatever it is for the sole driving cars demands lots of data population growth has a Larger Population that is more sustainable so we have to focus on managing our use of energy with the right kinds of electricity. Then using your judgments in the future not to bite to see but if everything goes plausible with a couple of turnovers of congress that with a practical reality have you see the Energy Distribution . The optimum world as opposed to what will happen . We could get half of the total power supply Going Forward now using technology commercially available today regenerate half so if thats the case then we have to look at what are the innovations that could boost that naturally . That is feasible with those profiles at the state level and the local level. So to talk about what is possible verses what i think it is probable. Were all in search of pope. [laughter] hope but in some places places, a bear with me there has been a genuine preemption of a Political Organization you need to have the antitrust ruling to have fundamentally different approaches we took a couple of the most powerful in the United States so lets say you double the depressions a . Without the government having to do too much . I will ask you you designed devils cutting edge building in seattle. [laughter] what you think is possible . This is your show by of the world classic pessimist. [laughter] but i do think a and a bit more optimistic when you are there is no reason they can get out there commercially if they could do that in the lab. But twothirds or more of the energy but the downside but the reason to be pessimistic what needs to be done in terms of new factories just to get the taste of what we do intend minutes. So what of all that energy . For the year 2000 . And it turns out there to factories that produced a gigawatt all of those on this in a day to not produce as much as the power plant. There were two factories. Into use the cumulative production is said to double . Yes. It is a massive deployment of resources it is also done from the good side of pope francis. To be a good stewards of the year the. Ended is worthy of that type of mobilization to fight world war ii to mobilize those resources and what we are finding is that the acceptance of Climate Change is a very serious challenge we need to redress it to see renegades and this is something we need to address so i am optimistic we can transform the ways to gear up to produce sufficient technology. So what is the energy were using and what are the challenges today of 85 of the solar panel comes out of asia lot of those are made by birding dirty coal so few producers panels in washington where the majority of the electricity is hydroelectricity so we have to build transformation of the manufacturing process into the transformation of our overall electricity. It was a few years ago and now theyre producing 60 percent. That is the mobilization we talk about. Let me show you to quit final questions. Have you focus directly especially with the right policies . As you look across the country if you were in a very progressive city with the recommendations from seattle and washington . Washington has a challenging situation your power is very cheap. Massachusetts we have a fortune and misfortune to pay twice because that is so we are competing against this provides for Renewable Energy production that is very enlightened so that could be positive surge of the continuity 30 statef the continuity 30 states with the District Of Columbia which require a certain minimum to be produced with renewable sources . So that would be an important step to take some to be guaranteed even if they dont use the power they generate there is a market for the utility. It doesnt have the solar car out there a lot of ways to tweak that but lets turn to the audience. I run a climate lobby in seattle i do have a second section on my roof rand urquhart charger and i have done all of those things but now i am upset i was guaranteed by 2020 if you have any ideas of how to deal with that . Make a lot of noise. That type of continuity did you expect poor people to invest in solar and that disillusionment that you feel will not help them move forward with the major presence and to make sure there is greater continuity. And i reasonably confident that people could install those panels so those are very accessible people to be prepared to support those that will support you. This is the good time for them to be vulnerable. So raise cain. I was reading about tesla in a particular and Yvonne Lusk Elon musk and looking down the road with electric cars and how that transforms. Elon musk is a visionary i personally dont think tesla is an inspiration i actually test drove a tesla and a practically expired when i hit the accelerator. [laughter] but i take issue with what technology can do but there are more practical electric vehicles in she averages 150 miles to the gallon. One of the things of utilities so talk about the storage walls of batteries the single purpose if you have a car if you drive an hour a day than a major car is sitting idle this is a wonderful will batterys storage resource to charge and the charge and to provide with the robust infrastructure. But elon musk pointed is in the right direction but not to inspire those it cannot afford a car that is that expensive. People say they will be cheaper i just say they will cost less. [laughter] the part of the overall scheme but locally that italy is producing the interface into oversimplify left is electricity if you buy at 0. 12 and i am selling its then i go 40 miles tomorrow that you have a series of financial structures. Hq. Could you talk about the cost of solar . And in particular the plants and materials of what are used for those panels themselves. The panels do not use those. With those most commonly occurring minerals on earth. With the silicon man that metal framing very flexible the terror in material and is now meeting recycling of electronic waste 20 percent of all panels must be recycled. In terms of when and but what are the services . Is said ground for the roof for a wall . But what we have to do is look at the choices california today as of 2013 california is still growing cotton one can identify to be more appropriately used so we have to be a collective and sensitive of some of those older forms. With major portions of wyoming are devoted to coal. A huge amount of appellation has spent destroyed through mountaintop mining. The president up to 40 million acres of the gulf of mexico is open for oil and gas drilling. [inaudible] we focus more of the manufacturing. You need something that is slightly less common and not what is it in short supply. But it is also valuable enough but but with solar is a matter of making the decision. When the factory is the size of a large semiconductor is a football field size it is the oil and gas and nuclear eric gales is trivial in comparison. It seems like a massive part of the problem but those solar panels will be the equivalent of Storage Capacity looking at the big breakthrough anytime soon. That is dramatically different Business Model so i dont know of you could go a little further down that direction and. So looking at the peace that sticks up to say if you have all the solar panels out there id want my car to supply energy than have it dead in the morning. If your car takes three or four hours to charge there is some flexibility. But more broadly one example ready to. Org different technologies with each other. Now generating 40 of its electricity to the wind. It is a symbiotic relationship because of hydropower so when denmark has a surplus it gives that to norway that uses it to pop the storage reservoir and then releases the water when they have indeed. Battery storage is another but it is using energy in a smart way. And also has to do with how your refrigerator operates with a commercial air conditioning system to modulate the consumption of power it requires a much more sophisticated read grid and just one more point is a broad regional grid even though the sun is shining bell with could be bullrings strong in wyoming so it is moving between different Renewable Resources. The sun doesnt shine here for six months so we have a storage problem. [laughter] germany is though world leader they get 1500 hours of sunlight per year. And if you look at washington as all whole bed is semi eric so i really dont imbedded taken straight in washington. There is whole other level. We need to order go that transformation. The saving as a six story building. It is the same as the all electric building. [applause] and if they added that to the grid is what they produced just not enough for all of our needs. The absolute dumbest thing that is out there but to reject sulfates into the atmosphere so you dont need to worry about Climate Change but on the Technology Side to be far more optimistic but in this case it is tough as hell to change. Over your she mentioned her done about. They committed to do Community Solar projects we find ourselves with formidable allies but it does bring up where this is in the future trip reservation is a great word but what do you see in a word . Is there a time scale . We already see their Utilities Community soler is by a private cooperative private companies they see it as a part of their future so you are see utilities to recognize those opportunities and competition but what it will take to push the frontiers to bring his or her shareholders. We will see if there is anything we can do. So lets give them a heads up. I realize you are not local but to go in those resources if we were considering to put the panel on our house what the cost would be to install those panels which make more senseful fed also with that Energy Consumption and conservation estimate that we as a committee what sort of laws or regulations what do we want to ask of them to put in place to use that Precious Resource whether solar or anything else . Bond of level of what you should be installing on your House Companies love to come by to give you an estimate or the of Peace Agreement or the all right purchase. You need to invite to a few of them. With my experience the first to very good job to identify our neighbors roof you want to make sure they get the right roof. [laughter] there looking carefully and honestly your own situation you dont need to go to the onsite resource because under one circumstance or another. What about conservation and government policy . Period the remarkable thing of conservation after 35 years there is enormous amount of information we were designing from scratch with a group of people from the philippines and australia. They went to the various elements it is obvious what the answer would be. With the concept to put your venetian blinds to work things up on the inside. So this summer the most Comfortable Office building in the city because the sudden never caveman. At 9 00 tonight it would flush out the hot air. It isnt rocket science. The menu could moderate the temperatures in the building. So those simple things it is a little bit more expensive but it is in terms of energy savings. If you walk 10 feet away from the window youre not freezing. It is all comfortable inside. So the simple answer is to think carefully what you were doing. If you were going to buy a refrigerator that is the most efficient that meets my needs. And it turns out from the best to the wire to the worst in the best was 10 years ago. With a more efficient compressor. It is pretty obvious. It is a matter to say this is important to me. Without a reduction of comfort or productivity. I have read the book from cover to cover. This is a fabulous book if you could take off one year to interview the most fabulous people an answer the questions that are on your mind. It is very engaged a written and strongly encourage all of you to buy it. But if you are my heros. And with conservation my question is basically also with a german background the country iron proud of my question Staten Island save some for my pension of a bite to put on their roof the way a german pensioner can by a panel to get a minimum return. How long until federal legislation that we can take our Retirement Funds to put them on our roof . [laughter] that is the ultimate benefit we could get as private developers. The correct version the quick version from someone who spent three months in germany, if you have not followed this that said of policies it was designed by a leader within the green party they try to answer the question Everybody Knows next year soever be here because they would have thought that and invest in facilities so they put off until next year but it never got cheaper because people are people were not buying it. Then the grid pays you enough money in your economic interest if you wait until next year or five years later. With a return on your investment. Then tied it together with his quasi community. And they can take it as a retirement program. It is a fabulous system. But one quick note the advantage to put solar on your home if you own it, there is Ample Research done to show you recoup the cost of electricity you save but does not help the resale value of your home. As we were commiserating before to buy stock in Smaller Companies is a lottery. With any information that you have if you Read Everything that is out there to be project particularly prominent if you put something on your roof is yours. But it is within your control. It is a smart investment to make. Thank you very much. By the book. [applause] [inaudible conversations]