Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On From Jailer To Jailed 20150531

He served as the National Security advisor to King Abdullah of jordan and was appointed by president bush to be the interim interior minister of the Iraq Coalition provisional authority. And, of course youve subsequently nominated by president bush in 2004 to head the department of homeland security. Mr. Kerik has also served time in federal prison. After withdrawing his nomination federal government initiated an investigation against mr. Which culminated in pleading guilty to a charge is including criminal conspiracy, tax fraud and lying under oath. He was sentenced to four years in prison and served most of that time. He has now written an account of his triumphs, his challenges and his ordeals. It is from jailer to jailed, copies of which are available in the lobby and he would be happy to sign him at the conclusion of this event. Mr. Kerik will make brief opening remarks and he and i will engage in a moderated dialogue with each other and after that well have time permitting questions from august. Without please join me in welcoming Bernard Kerik. [applause] good morning. First of want to thank john and the Heritage Foundation for the invitation to be here and speak to you and speak about the book. As john mentioned ive been a cop, ive been a correctional officer, ive been a federal drug agent. I was the warden of a county jail in new jersey and in procedures oversaw rikers ivan which at the time was one of the most violent jail systems in the nation. In a sixyear period i took it from one of the most violent mismanaged jail and prison systems in our country to International Model for efficiency, accountability and safety. Would average 150 stabbings and slashings per month. On the month i became Police Commissioner in the year 2000 we had one. A 93 reduction of violence and or efficiencies in every area of management within the system. In the year 2000 i became Police Commissioner. That it was smooth sailing. Violence is down, crime is down everything was going fine until 8 46 a. M. September 11. It was the most trying time for the nypd, one of the darkest days in our countries history but for me as bad as it was i got to witness the best and the worst in humanity, the worst being the man that flew those planes into the towers into shanksville and into the pentagon the best in watching the rescue mission which i consider one of the greatest and most substantial rescue missions in the history of our country. Carried out by the men and women of the new York City Police Department Fire department and the Port Authority police. From that point on my career in Public Service was sort of straight uphill, until i was nominated by the president. And i have to tell you i thought i knew our criminal Justice System. I thought i knew it better than just about anyone, until i was actually a target of federal prosecutors and i was found i found myself in a federal prison. And i came to realize quickly that our criminal Justice System, in my opinion, is flawed and failed in many ways. So i will sum it up with a couple things that are most important to me. I think the simpson guidelines mandatory minimums that we live by in the federal system today have to be repealed, revamped or abolish sentencing guidelines. They would have the ability to judge. I think we are putting way too many people with Mental Illness and addiction in prison. They need treatment. They dont need prison. I think we are taking young men first time nonviolent offenders and this is one of the things that struck me the most when i went into prison. I put a lot of people in prison, bad people that did bad things come and i believe in law and order and i know different today than i was 20 years ago. And i put people in prison that wanted to kill me determined worked with them people i seized tons of cocaine from millions in drug proceeds. Then i went to prison and i met young black men, 18 19 your old. To sugar packs in a dunkin donut shop, 10 years. To 15 years in prison. Because they were attacked on to some third party, fourth party conspiracy. I met commercial fishermen who caught too many fish or the wrong size fish. I met a guy who sold a wales to on ebay. Young man that enhanced their income to buy their first home, federal prison. Thousands upon thousands of people are in federal prison for these offenses. The one thing ive realized and ive come to realize and i think that the general public, i know i am absolutely confident that the general public doesnt know is that we are creating a permanent underclass of american citizen in this country a second class, by the millions. Because once you become a convicted felon you are a second class citizen until the day you die. That conviction never goes away. Your debt to society is never paid ever. We are supposed to incarcerate and rehabilitate. We are supposed to punish and make people better, pay for their crimes, pay for their mistakes, get them back into society a better person. I promise you thats not happening. If we didnt have the advocacy groups around this country that we do today like the Heritage Foundation, and others thousands of others, i cant even tell you how bad society would be. In many cases especially in these lowlevel first time nonviolent offender drug cases society has failed these young men and women. Their families have failed them. Their communities have failed them. We stick them in prison for 10 years 15 years and we failed then again. We shouldnt have an option for failure once we take over, and we failed them completely. They are supposed to programs to benefit them. And i can assure you where i was we had adult continuing education programs, but as i stand here, and these are real examples, knitting crocheting chess checkers. They are not going to do anything to reducing recidivism. We take people that are convicted of real estate fraud, we engage them in a prison to teach our real estate class two other convicted felons. Theres two problems i have with it. One, you are letting someone teach this very topic for which they were convicted a bit of hypocrisy. Worse than that is that once they teach these people, they are supposed to be teaching them something that helps them for when they get on the outside your you can teach them to be a master realtor. Uses civil and Constitutional Rights that are never given back to you are never made whole again as an american citizen. No matter what you do, and ill give you a first hand example. I was with a young man come he was 20, 21, the United States army sniper. He had a pair of night vision goggles, his own personal. He sold them on ebay. He was convicted in a conspiracy because the person who sold them to didnt have the appropriate permit to sell them abroad or the kid was 21. He was sentenced to 30 months in prison, 30 months because he did something he didnt even know was wrong. That being said if that kid list the 120 and hes a complete angel on the outside once he gets out of prison, he still could have the collateral consequence of that conviction laying over his head and killed a day they put him in the ground. Its wrong. We were founded by the constitution, by a governing body by our Founding Fathers who said the punishment is supposed to fit the crime. Today in the American Government the punishments do not fit the crime and that has to change. Thank you. Why did you stay at the podium . Ill just keep my voice up and ask you a question. So you went from being one of the nations top cop to being a federal inmate. Its quite a fall and this is obviously a very very difficult book for you to write. The pain is felt and is evident on every certain page. Why did you write this book . You know a lot of people when i wrote the book especially critics, they come out his writing the book to make money in his writing the book to make up for losses. I have to tell you, and i heard this line once and couldnt agree more, for the losses ive had over the last eight to 10 years as a result of the investigation and my conviction that book would have to sell more copies than the bible for me to make up for it. This isnt about money. This is basically about an education. What i said earlier that im confident that the American Public doesnt know the things that ive learned, i said that for a reason. I know they dont know and im positive many of the legislators, the actual people who write our laws, they dont know either. And i know that because i didnt know. I didnt know. I went through some of the biggies were positioned in this country, the biggest Law Enforcement agencies in this nation. I did not know many other things that ive learned since. And if i did not im sure the American Public doesnt know so thats what the book is about. I think the book is in educating tool for the American Public, and i think it creates i want it to create debate that has to be credit to change the laws. If every american citizen in this country read the book, they would have to come away with one primary question. And i would be go to your legislator and ask them how is it that we in this country are 5 of the worlds population the United States as a whole is 5 of the worlds population, yet we hold 25 of the worlds prisoners. How is that possible . How do we have more prisoners than there something wrong and they think the book will open up eyes to create a that debate. In your book you quote a fellow prisoner it is like dying with your eyes open. Please describe a little bit what you mean by that. If, if i heard that statement prior to incarceration i wouldnt have had a clue what that meant. I wouldve had no idea. But i had been there for months or dedicate the time maybe a few months already when this kid made the statement. We were having a conversation one afternoon. He had enormous problems. His wife had been diagnosed with cancer. He was there on a first time low level drug charge. He tried to get a compassionate release. He couldnt get her to try to get to the hospital where his wife was. He couldnt get it. He had no one else to take care of these kids. It was a mess. And he was basically standing there and he said to me he said this is like dying with your eyes open. And get knotted up in my stomach like nothing before because i knew exactly what he meant. When you go to prison i dont care who it is and less you are an institutionalized animal when you go to prison thats what happens. You die with your eyes open. You are placed in a stagnant position and to watch everything go on around you and your family your personal life your professional life everything. Everything goes on without you in it. And no matter how bad it can be and i had some really bad incidents happen to my family while i was inside. One, my brotherinlaw went to the hospital for a routine surgery, a very routine surgery putto do so they can end up in a day. He never left the hospital. He died. He was 50. He had three sons that were 13 years old, triplets. And there was anything i could do for him his family his wife. And it was horrible. A few months later my son who was a Police Officer in newark, new jersey his partner was shot and killed during a robbery. I have had the unfortunate, ive been in the unfortunate position to bury more cops than anyone in this country as a police chief or a commissioner, but i couldnt be there for my son when his partner died. I know what the kid meant when he said its like dying with your eyes open, and thats what its about. You mentioned your family and in the book you talk something about the ordeal but this took on your family, your wife your son your daughters. Can you describe a little more about sort of how they coped and the difficult they had . And also how they are doing now. When you go to prison as i said your life stands still, yours does theres dont. And theres the reverse. Everything they do it doesnt have you in it. So your Children School events, report cards, sporting events. You name it the good the bad the ugly it all goes on without you in it. Theres a distance thats created between your kid, your children, your spouse. And none of it is good. None of it is good. I left my two daughters were seven and 10. I came back they were 10 and 13. They were adults almost adults in my eyes when i came back. They were completely different. You come back to the same home they left. Its a very different house, if a different home. You come back to the same style as he left very different relationship. Tears nothing good about that distance. Not to mention that the financial problems that occur, lack of income. I can tell you and i am and was one of the fortunate ones that i know. I cannot tell you how many men were taken out of the workforce and ill give you one pretty easy example. The commercial fisherman who caught too many fish there were a few where i was but this is one of the problems i have with the system. Instead of dealing with that guy through a regulatory body, which it should have been, what we did is we turned them into a convicted felon. He lost his boat the six people on the boat lost their job. His wife worked for the company. She was left alone. He went to prison. That he gets out of prison 18 months later, he has nowhere to go. The boat is gone the company is gone. He cant get a license to the only thing hes done since he was 17 was a fish. He was 55. Whats he going to do for the rest of his life . I dont know. But what i can tell you is there are thousands of cases like that disrupting the economy, disrupting families, destroying families putting people in public assistance and who pays for that . You do the american taxpayer. Its your loss and its costing us billions if not trillions of dollars over the reported cost of incarceration. You mention how it affected your relationship with her close friend, former boss and partner rudy giuliani. I was wondering, you would other friends uninsured where these have been impacted on the relationship it i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that . Mayor giuliani and i were i worked for him for eight years, into the Police Department to you dont have two years prior to that. Once i retire from the nypd we had a company together a consulting group. We were very close. He was my boss my partner. Is also the godfather to my two youngest daughters. When the investigation started the federal investigations there was distance we created between us mutually. And it was understood. I didnt want him involved in my case, and he didnt want you know the focus and the attention that was coming down on me on him, special at the time he was running for president. He announced that he is going to run for president. I understood that. What happened later was in the aftermath of my conviction, and then sent to prison i never heard from him again, nor did my kids. And i get. Look if he didnt want to speak to me or he wanted to continue that distance to thats fine, but i dont think theres anybody in the American Government that doesnt understand the pain that comes to a family when someone is incarcerated in u. S. Attorney for former u. S. Attorney. I would hope he was there for my children and the my absence, and he wasnt and that was painful. But its behind me. And circumstance like that you find out who your friends are. You are still under probation for another year as i recall. What are some of the current restrictions that you face what wouldve the additional restrictions are going to face in the future . The primary restrictions travel restrictions. Constant oversight by the department of probation. Look, they have an enormous job. They have a difficult job to do the department of probation. In overseeing people that were in the system. My problem i have with the system is about i think the rest of the and evaluation process where people that are a real threat of getting back involved in crime yet to stay on top of them. But then theres people a whole bunch of people, thousands of people that wind up on supervised release. They are not a threat to recidivism. They are not a threat to society. Theyre not a threat of violence, and the probation officers could be better served by focusing on people that really problematic. So thats where i find you know, by differences of opinion on who we supervised and for how long but i will tell you regardless of my own circumstance, companies dont want to hire people us on probation because you dont want probation officers showing up at your. You to watch a professional officer showing up at your company. You dont want to oversight. You dont want the government looking at you in any way. So the supervisor Lease Program the Probation Program first in your book you quote an old cliche that conservatives as a liberal who was mugged and a liberal is a conservative whos been indicted. But then you said the following for you being a former officer in coppola people behind bars i found this passage rather eyeopening to use that quote our courts are over punishing decent people who make mistakes and the presence have no rewards or incentives for Good Behavior. In this alone our criminal justice and prison system contradict their own mission statement. For 30 years i believe this is the most honest and fair in some ways i still do. But after experiencing firsthand from the other side its flaws failures and injustices, id say its not only wrong but dangerous for every american and the future of this country. There is no greater threat to a free and democratic nation in a government that fails to protect its citizens freedoms and liberty as aggressively as it pursues justice. What did you mean by this . Like i said, i thought i knew the system. I thought we punished that people who do bad things. But i did realize is that we also take people that violated our regulatory rule or a civil issue or an administrative issue, and we prosecute them criminally. I didnt understand that. I never witnessed it. I didnt know it existed really, until i was actually on the inside and got to talk to people. I heard case after case after case and read can forget the stuff i read on the inside. The stuff that i start to realize on the outside in the arena of prosecutions, special in the federal prosecutions, prosecutors conduct is on the increase at the staggering numbers, so much so that we recently had a judge i think out on the west coast competitor recall his name, that banish an entire United States attorneys fice for misconduct. And heres my problem. When i talked about, when i talk about governments, you know protecting the liberties of freedoms of people people that make mistakes they can be mistakes. Not everybody is a bad, bad guy. Not everybody is a criminal. That everybody has criminal intent. We have evolved into society right now where nobody can make a mistake if you make a mistake, its criminal, and the punishment is prison. I can assure you prison is not necessary in every case for people to pay for their mistakes or learn from their mistakes. I can assure you that the amount of time people been given for those mistakes in many cases i used, its not a laughing matter but i used to wonder, like whos the person in the Sentencing Commission or in the u. S. Government that determines like 10 years is a better sentence than five. Because what countries to note is what did they think happens within that extra five year period that didnt happen in the first five . Somebody distance to a year and a day versus five years. I am sure that they never lived within an institution because i can tell you a day is like a week. A week is like a year. I year is like 10. And you dont know that. You dont get it unless you are on the inside. I spent 60 days in solitary confinement strict solitary confinement for about a but a terrorists. And i can tell you that the 60 days to me was like 10 years. So i believe that we over punishing. I believe that the people that imposed the sentence is have no conception what time really is on the inside. And as far as reward for Good Behavior weve had the Second Chance act. Weve had a number of laws that have been put on the books against guys can men and women out of the system faster if they behave themselves. I can tell you i am one of them. I was put in for extra house we have time to get out sooner. I was denied. And i know many other people that were put in were denied as well. Nobody leaves the system earlier than is supposed to come no matter how good you are. I new inmate that had four different jobs did everything he was supposed to come never had an inmate and fraction, not one thing. The model prisoner didnt get one day off didnt get one benefit in the system than one of the most rogue thugs running around the compound in which we lived. Its wrong. We talk about being a country that is one of Second Chances. There are no Second Chances. Not one joint convicted felon theres not. Not. Youve made reference to some of the people you met in prison and you do with a broad array of people interacting with drug dealers, develop a relationship Jack Abramoff their countries so that the differences and similarities did you see among the inmates and what lessons did you take away from them . I think most important families and the children. I think if there are similarities in most of the people that i was with the one thing that everybody had come everybody was sort of a light it was their concern for the kids. I didnt meet many men could even the guys, you know sort of the drug thugs that i would call them out in some of these guys have been in the system or 25 years, 20 years and it came down in time to the point that are fun allowed to be in a minimum security cant there just to be a danger to get into a camp at these guys have been in system for 20 25 years. And ironically nonviolent that amount of violent offense with you can get into camp the camp and many of them first time offenders. 20, 25 years in the system but they were still concerned with their kids. They were still concerned with family members. I think that was the area where many of us were like everybody had political differences. Everybody had differences of opinion, but i think the thing that we focus on most was our children. And i think the reason being is your kids are all grown in life without you. Theres nothing you can do to help them to nothing. When i say dine with your eyes open, i mean it. I dont care what happens to i dont care how small the arkham i dont care what their needs are. Your spouse or your family cant help them, they are doomed. And that is why we see so many kids that have parents in prison that wind up come into prison themselves because there was nobody there for them. And i believe that spirit you really got to see the common humanity of people come everybody had that familial connection to one of the question and then i will leave time for questions from the audience. In the book you said quote every prosecutor, judge correction officer and children present official, has to spend 70 in the hole in solitary confinement to see what its like. Im curious, if you could go back in time what advice would the Bernard Kerik of to take it to the Bernard Kerik was a new City Commission and head of corrections at Rikers Island . I think i said this in the book that wasnt just a thought. If i was running Rikers Island today, a part of the training curriculum would be for every seo come every single seo that goes for the Correction Academy would have to spend 72 hours in solitary. I would make that a mandatory portion of their training for a few reasons, one of which, you need to know what its like for the people on the inside so when youre on the outside and just respond to that or you to deal with them or you have to respond to an emergency can you need to know whats going on, what theyre thinking of why do they do with our. At the end of the day i can tell you i was in a cell that was 12 by eight that had a four by six cant end it so really you in a cell that is 12 by four. I was in that sell for 60 days 24 hours a day. I was let out three times a week to take a shower and thats it. There was no contact with the outside world except for one phone call, one15 minute phone call a month. No communications with the outside world except for mail which took forever. In the 60day period i found myself hallucinating im talking to myself. People asked me how did you get through it . I counted. Thats one thing i can remember i could think of the i counted. I counted the steps from one end of the wall to the other. I counted that bedsprings in the bunk bed overhead of me. There was nobody in it but he is to count those springs up and down to see if i could come up with the same number over and over i counted the cracks in the walls. I counted the lines on the windows. I counted the mud flaps on the windows for gods sake. You have no conception of what its like in solitary. And the people that met our jails and prisons in our country, they want of the most dangerous jobs. They have a thankless job but i can assure you they have a job in which they have no conception of what its like to be on inside of that so that everything everyone of them should not. And the other thing when i talk about the prosecutors and judges, you know, you watch this from this point on and you probably have never paid attention to this but id like you to look at it when for when you see somebody was arrested for a crime whatever the crime they be a that that process in place in solitary confinement and then all of a sudden the person pleads guilty im going to tell you you will do anything anything to get out of that sell. Anything. You will say anything, you wont do anything. You will admit to anything that should be a contributing factor to the judges decision and every prosecutors motive behind what did you and how they do it in every judges decision whether to accept a plea of guilty from somebody thats in solitary. I can tell you he will do anything anything to get out of that sell. Spent it was interesting in your book to talk to a number of the Corrections Officers you interact with. So we thought were really professional who did their job well and were a credit to the profession to others decidedly less so. With that lets open up the questions from the audience. I would ask when you get handed the microphone that you tell your name and your affiliation. Keep it short and ended with a question mark. And with that why dont we start with paul in the back . Mr. Gerke, you were the director of the new City Department of corrections at the new city Police Commissioner and you say you did not to what it was like on the inside. How can the average member of the public who works in a field that has no relation to the criminal Justice System come to learn what youve learned . How can the public be educated about the things you have learned when they dont have remotely the experience that you had with the system . Theres a couple of things, paul. Honest i think about this all the time because the numbers, remember, you know 20 30 years ago when i got into Law Enforcement, 30 years ago, not many people at all new anything about the criminal Justice System. Me being a cop, not many people knew what my job was. Not many people that i knew 30 years ago knew anyone that has ever been in prison. I can tell you honestly those numbers have changed substantially. Today and i know this company with even more since ive gotten out because i get flooded with email responses that come to my work website from people that have experienced some of the stuff i talk about. Not themselves but through family members. The unfortunate thing is its hard for anyone to understand anyone what goes on within the system, what prosecutions are like, what the investigations are like and what the process is like. The cost of the cost, the mere cost to somebody. Let me this way come and talk about this in my book. One of the things that ive learned that people would find may be confusing or upsetting and i think i summon up this way in the book. You dont have the constitutional right you think you have in less you have the money to pay for them. I do want you to think about that. Because the reality is there are so many people in prison that didnt have the money to pay for a real attorney or to file an appeal for their conviction or distancing or whatever the case may be. The legal costs in this world today are astronomical. I was build 100000 150,000, sometimes 200,000 per month for almost two years. And in october 2009, october of 2009, 30 days for a 30 day period my legal bill for one month was 476,000. So you tell me if i cant get justice, if i cant fight the system how to the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of other people that are far less fortunate, how do they do it . They cant. And thats the thing that the public doesnt get. Thats the thing the public doesnt see the and as far as how we educate them i think this forum is one thing. And this book is one thing. And that is the sole purpose of what im trying to do now. I have created a 501 c 4 , its called the American Coalition for criminal Justice Reform. And my function my whole function behind this is to educate the American People and make them go to their legislators and call for change because at the end of the day with the Heritage Foundation and all these atavistic groups that are out here fighting for change and fighting for reform on if you dont fight to change the laws we will be doing this 30 years of not doing the same exact thing. The laws have to change. The more the public knows about what goes on within the system in reality the more theyre going to fight for change because i promise you that the American Public and our legislators saw what i saw and witnessed what i witnessed there would be anger outrage and it would be change. Now the mission is to get them to see it. Al milliken, a in media. Did you get any new or different perspective after you got to know Jack Abramoff but i do not if you knew him beforehand, but also, did you have any speculation or theory about the unrest that led to the death in the van in baltimore and then the six Police Officers that have been accused . Do you have a sense of what theyre going through not . Two things. On the jack issue i knew jack by repetition before i met him actually in prison Jack Abramoff. I found him to be charismatic funny. I used to tease him and say you could be a stand up comedian if he couldnt find a job. He was a nice guy. You know i read all the stories, i read some books about what he was accused of what he was convicted of. I do know anything about it other than what i read. On the baltimore case i can tell you this. Going through with the baltimore Police Officers are going through, you know what, forget the baltimore cops for a second to anyone of you any one of you come anyone in this audience, if tomorrow morning someone called you indicated you a criminal indictment against you, that indictment says the trend of america versus, and add your name on it you are not in a fight for your life. I dont care what the indictment is for the i dont care if its for manslaughter, murder tax evasion. I dont care i dont care what its for. It is a fight for your life because once you are convicted, you are no longer a fully empowered u. S. Citizen. Dont ever forget that. New franklin Law Enforcement against prohibition. You mentioned some of the things of which were trying to do as far as asking citizens to go to their representatives, advocate for this reform and, obviously your book is one of these educational tools to assist with that. Are there any specifics regarding policy reform, any type of policy reform that you would advise on advocating for . What would some of specifics become any particular piece of legislation . I think, i think there are four things that i would focus on. First the mandatory minimums sentencing guidelines. Secondly for the legislators to look at how we incarcerate the mentally ill and addicted and what we do with what we do with first time lowlevel nonviolent offenders in the drug war. Third, oh grams well programs that teach Life Improvement skills location skills things of that nature. Things that will really help reduce recidivism that can be monitored and tracked into could be accountability within those programs. And lastly, the fourth and probably the most important is the removal of your conviction. At some point you have to pay your debt to society. I get it but your debt to society shouldnt last eternally, to the day you die. Only in the most extreme cases should that happen. There is a reason for prison. Prison as a punishment. I get that. You take that people that do bad things can you put them in prison. Some other for a long time. Some other forever. I understand that but for others that do their time they serve their probation and they get back into society or they are trying to get back into society to be a successful citizen. Get rid of the conviction. Get it off the record. Do something that helps, give them back their civil and Constitutional Rights. Because as it stands today they are a second class citizen until the day they die. About how good they are and how could they become afterward. Hi. Sharon, voice of the monitor quick question that i believe their selective prosecution but also the doj and im wrong and please correct me, but why would look at some people like maybe Jimmy Hazlett who gets to pay a 92 my dollars fine, his company, i think 32 billion a year so people like you and others to jail times like a different issue but like you what a joke united halfway time vigorous intellect are some selected sentencing. And also the political, the doj is appointed by the president and any comments you have would be fantastic. Anyone that thinks that there is no selective our legal prosecution in this country has got to be really naive or stupid. Thats what i think. And thats our reality. Look prosecutors and i want to make this clear i worked with some of the best in my opinion some of the best United States attorneys in this country. I worked with some of the best state prosecutors in this country. I ran one of the most substantial drug investigations in new york history that were prosecuted through state and federal organizations and worked with some of the best people ive known in Law Enforcement. But keep in mind that prosecutors, their performance evaluation is based on their conviction rates youre a prosecutors performance evaluation is based on the positive press to their office. You know, for anybody to think that does not selective prosecution, i just think you are really naive. On the sentencing issue i have to tell you im one, i dont have a problem with people that were involved and white collar crimes that come again we punish them by making them pay restitution and pay fines double the fines do whatever. I dont have a problem with that. I dont think everybody has to go to prison to pay for their mistakes. Its sort of like, you know, if you get a parking violation youre going to pay this sum is due 30 days in jail. Okay, im not saying the same thing for whitecollar criminals, and i can assure you that are many whitecollar criminals, whitecollar people decade after things that they didnt even know they did anything wrong. There was no criminal intent. But we put them in prison and theres these things have got to be fixed over time. Washington, d. C. Attorney. Your message does seem to be getting some bipartisan support at a president ial candidate little bit your candidates rand paul ted cruz, hillary clinton. You think this issue should be discussed more than the national of the the will to be reaching out to these candidates and how do you think this issue should be on the National Agenda speak with what is your first name . Paul. Paul. For the last year and a half and right up until the time i created this coalition i have met with just about every member of the house and Senate Judiciary order staff or their counsel. Pushing this issue. I strongly believe, i strongly believe that in the 2016 president ial election criminal Justice Reform has to be one of the top five domestic issues on the next president s plate whoever the president is. The system as it stands today is unsustainable financially. We see state governments around the country that are really aggressively engaged in criminal Justice Reform doing tremendous work. Look texas the law and order capital of the world, if they can get involved in criminal Justice Reform, close down prisons, great alternatives to incarceration and do the things they are doing, and every other state in this country can do it. Most importantly, the federal government has to follow suit and heres where youre going to have a problem that in those state governments come and one of them lives by a budget. Theyve got a certain amount of money they have to live with in the budget for iran to nypd i had a threepoint 2 billion budget. When i ran Ragged Island i had nearly 1 billion in budget if i run out of money can was giving me money . Nobody is giving me the money. I have to live within my budget. The problem we have with the federal system can they just put more money. Thats a problem. So we really, the legislators the judiciary the next president ial candidates i will be going down to South Carolina im going to iowa will go to New Hampshire and talk to the caucus groups. I think its extremely important that they know how important this issue is so that they can create a base so when those candidates show up we should be asking what are you going to do about this . Im one of bernies attorneys, and no these issues very intimately. I apologize for getting here late but i know it has gone quite well. I think for your audience, if i may, just point out a couple of things that you comment on. One come up with one of the reporters commented on selective prosecution. And my point would be for you to discuss what about abuse of discretion of the prosecutor . You in jail, you heard Jack Abramoff been discussed in other individuals who dont have the headline or the name recognition who you know personally suffer grave of what many of us would consider come when i say many of us come from the outside and just ask of a small person, the fishman case and i dont know if you discussed it at all before thats one. Number two regarding the Constitutional Rights when you are being tried in your criminal case if you could share the freedom of speech, the right to free speech and how that that would curtail, if you believe so. Yeah. I do want to get into my whole case because of what you to read the book. For those of you who dont know i was brought up on charges, new york city ethics charges. There was a new york state bronx investigation that lasted for 18 months. 18 months a really federal grand jury investigation. At the conclusion of that investigation, the bronx District Attorney basically concluded that i had violated to ethics violations. One that i didnt put something on the conflict of interest report a personal loan. That was an ethics violation and two that i accepted gifts in the form of renovations from somebody that was attempting to do business with the city. And they went before a judge state judge and they said that there was no quid pro quo between me and the contractor. In other words, i didnt do anything for the contractor for him or the contractors recommended contract to do anything for me or my partner. And i had to pay a 221,000 fine. 221,000 come nearly a quarter of a million dollars. I paid that fun. I was told it was over, investigation is over. You and your family can go on with your life and live happily ever after thats what i was told by my attorney and i was told that by the prosecutors. You know it is a strange world. I will leave it at that. One last thing. Freedom of the press ill give you a little advice. By a federal prosecutor, by any prosecutor, if you get indicted the whole freedom of the press thing is a joke. You are not allowed to talk to anybody. Dont talk to anyone. Because if you do somebody is going to say you are attempting to influence the jury pool. That happened to me. They said i was attempting to influence the jury pool about an email sent to the Washington Times that no one had ever saw. No one ever saw it. Every day ironically every part of my case every part of the investigation everything going on in the grand jury was leaked to the press. I dimly care. I didnt know it. It has been leaked to the press every day. That is okay. I say one thing, youre attempting to influence the jury pool can sometimes be unfair. Thank you. [applause]