[inaudible conversations] youre watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. And on this threeday weekend of booktv on after words, pulitzer prizewinning journalist mei fong talks about chinas recently discontinued onechild policy. Also this weekend, David Bernstein argues the Obama Administration has undermined the constitution. Courtney young takes a look at the politics of breastfeeding, and we visit the literary sites of hartford, connecticut. Representative john lewis recalls his part in the civil rights movement. University of wisconsin Professor William p. Jones remembers the march on washington, and douglas wilder, the first africanamerican to be elected as governor, talks about his life and political career. For a complete television schedule, visit booktv. Org. Booktv, 48 hours and this weekend even more hours of nonfiction books and authors television for serious readers. Of this years president ial candidates have written books to introduce themselves to voters and promote their views. Heres a look at some. In his newest book, reply all, jeb bush catalogs his email correspondence during his time as florida governor. President ial candidate and former neurosurgeon ben carson argues a better understanding of the constitution is necessary to solve americas pressing issues in his latest book, a more perfect union. And former secretary of state Hillary Clinton looks back on her time serving in the Obama Administration in hard choices. In a time for truth, texas senator ted cruz talks about his journey from a cuban immigrants son to the u. S. Senate. Carly fiorina, former ceo of hewlettpackard, shares lessons shes learned in rising to the challenge. Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee gives his take on politics and culture in god, guns, grits and gravy, and john kasich calls for a return to what he sees as a return to traditional values in stand for something. Rand paul in taking a stand. More president ial hopefuls with books include Florida Republican senator marco rubio. In American Dreams he outlines his economic plan. Independent vermont senator Bernie Sanders has updated his 1997 autobiography now titled outsider in the white house to include his time in the senate and the launch of his president ial campaign. In blue collar conservatives, Rick Santorum says the Republican Party must focus on the working class in order to retake the white house. Donald trump has written several bestsellers. His newest book, crippled america, outlines his political platform. Gary johnson is a president ial candidate for the libertarian party. In seven principles of good government, he discusses his political philosophy and his time as governor of new jersey. And finally, governor Chris Christie and former governors Martin Omalley and jim gilmore have announced their candidacies but havent released books. Booktv has covered many of these candidates, and you can watch them on our web site, booktv. Org. [inaudible conversations] tonight were honored to have as our guest douglas waller, here to discuss his new book, disciples the World War Ii Missions of the cia directors who fought for wild bill donovan, published by simon schuster. Waller is a veteran magazine correspondent, author and lecturer. As correspondent for newsweek and time, he covered the pentagon, congress, the state department, the white house and the cia. His previous books include wild bill donovan, big red, air warriors, and commandos the story of americas secret soldiers. Publishers weekly calls disciples, meticulously research. Waller keeps the interest high and the pages turning in one of the more interesting spy books of the year. Please welcome douglas waller. [applause] well, thanks, ellen. Its good to be back at quail ridge. I spoke here about three years ago on the wild bill donovan biography, and we moved down to raleigh, north carolina, from washington, d. C. Three years ago, so this is my home now. And quail ridge is my neighborhood bookstore. And you really should feel lucky that you have a bookstore like quail ridge here. This is independent bookstores like quail ridge are really National Treasures that we all should cherish. So lets talk about disciples. After i published my biography of general william wild bill donovan four years ago, i had a tough time figuring out what to do next. Donovan was really larger than life. A world war ii hero who had been awarded the medal of honor, a millionaire republican wall street lawyer, often mentioned as a president ial contender and the man Franklin Roosevelt picked to be his top spy chief during world war ii. In july 1941, just by way of background, donovan began what eventually became known as the office of Strategic Services, the oss. He started the spy agency really with only just one guy, and that was himself. But over the course of the war, he built up a force of more than 10,000 spies, saboteurs, commandos, research analysts, propagandists and support personnel in stations all over the world. Wild bill, he got that nickname in world war ii i mean, world war i leading infran trymen infantrymen, was also a controversial character. His political enemies, and he had a lot of them in washington, thought he was as big a threat to america as adolf hitler was. So donovan was going to be a hard act to follow. I finally settled on four subjects for my next book. These four were among the most controversial directors the Central Intelligence agency has ever had; allen dulles, richard helms, William Colby and william case key. Allen dulles, who was americas spy chief until 61, led invasion in the bay of pigs. Richard helms was convicted of lying over the cias effort to oust the El Salvadoran president. Bill colby, who was director from 7376, became a pariah among the agencys old hands for releasing to congress what became known as the family jewels report of cia misdeeds during the 1950s and early 70s. Bill casey, who was cia director from 198187, nearly brought down the agency in Ronald Reagans presidency from a scheme that secretly supplied nicaraguas contras with money raked off from the sale of arms to iran for american hostages in beirut. This was the iran contra scandal. But before these men became their nations top spymaster, they served under donovan as operatives. Disciples is about the secret war they fought in the office of Strategic Services which is a recursor to todays cia. Precursor. These four men, i quickly found out, were characters as rich and complex and multifaceted as donovan was. Allen dulles looked like the headmaster of an upper class english boarding school. He was dressed usually in a bow tie and a tweed jacket, his wiry hair always slightly mussed, his moustache was always neatly trimmed, and he almost always had a pipe clinched in his teeth. He had a soft voice that invited people to pour their hearts out to him. Dulles secret nature, however, could be absolutely maddening. One of his agents once joked that if you asked him if it was raining outside, hed laugh at you, and he wouldnt tell you. Occasionally, it was a hearty laugh when he was really amused about something. Most of the time it was kind of a mirthless ho, ho, ho that he turned on when he was trying to ingratiate himself with a stranger or trying to deflect a question he didnt want to answer. That country gentleman routine, though, also masked a fierce competitor not willing to give up a single point on the tennis court, a back alley fighter as one of his agents called him x a devious man who sized up people based really on whether they could be useful to him. Richard helms, the second guy, was the consummate spy. He had a mona lisalike smile. His hair was always slicked back neatly, and he had a cold personality. He didnt make friends easily, and be the friends he and with the friends he had, he never let his guard down with them. You can find plenty of stories in the cia about its colorful characters, but no one could think of an anecdote about helms. The consummate intelligence officer, he left no trail behind. People had to come up, had to strain to come up with something to say about him because he left so little impression on them. At parties he was a good dancer, a charming conversationalist, but he rarely drank more than one martini each night, so his head would stay clear. And he usually was the first to leave early so hed be fresh at the office the next day. Or if the party was at his house, he would shoo away the guests when his bedtime neared. Yeah. He smoked two packs of chesterfields a day for most of his life. He was immaculately tailored. His shoes were 700 a pair from peel and company in london, and he wore his belt with the buckle on the side instead of the front, which i thought was kind of odd. I dont know why. Colby, our third guy, was once asked the definition, his definition of the perfect spy. He gave a pretty obvious answer, the one you dont see. [laughter] colby looked like a man who could be overlooked. He was slightly built, he had pale, dull eyes behind hornrimmed glasses, and his hair was always neatly parted on the side. A private man, he was unfailingly polite with very refined manners. He paid no attention to what he wore. He repaired plumbing and did carpentry work around the house, but he had his guilty pleasures. He enjoyed a good bottle of wine. On weekends he drove a red fiat sports car, and he appreciated beautiful women. Although i could find no evidence that he ever acted on what he noticed. Classical greek and roman heroes intrigued colby. One of his favorite movies was lawrence of arabia. You remember peter otoole played t. H. Lawrence . That was colbys hero. Colby once told a Family Member that he never had a nightmare, never even dreamed, for that matter, which i thought was kind of unusual. In the oss and later the cia, colleagues recalled bill colby as a soldierpriest, but a loner. They never really knew him. An informal poll was once circulated among nearly 60 retired cia officers with just two questions. Number one, if you were ship wrecked on a pleasant, Deserted Island with plenty of food and liquor and every hope a ship would pass by to pick you up, who would you choose to be with . Well, dulles won handily over colby, because everybody thought he would be far Better Company on the island. Second question, if you were stuck on a miserable, Deserted Island with little food or hope of survival and you desperately wanted to escape, who would you choose to be with . Bill colby easily led dulles, because as one of the respondents said, he would know how to build a boat to get you off the island, and he would build the boat big enough for two. [laughter] bill casey always made a bad First Impression on others, even more so when he was middleaged. He was tall and lumpy, a jowlly face, thick eyes, thick lips, bulging eyes. He wore expensive suits, always rumpled. His tie often stained with what hed eaten for lunch, and he frequently mumbled. His acquaintances he made usually ended up being either lifelong friends who worshiped him or skeptics who just couldnt escape the uneasy feeling that he was some kind of devious operator. But looks were deceiving with case i. That slovenly appearance covered a body constantly on the go. He once wrote a lengthy article on how to quickly consume a nonfiction book. Casey would read from back to front. Hed start with the index and the source notes to pick out what he needed, thought he needed to know, and then hed bypass the rest. Ive always thought id hate for him to to read one of my books that way. [laughter] he had a photographic memory. He could retain passages almost verbatim from articles he just seemed to be flipping through. He had an inshare my curious mind. On family vacations, caseys idea of fun was scooping up the timetable brochures in train stations and studying them overnight so he could recite from memory the itineraries the next morning. Sounds like a lot of fun, huh . [laughter] for all the differences of these four guys, i found a Common Thread that ran between dulles, helm, casey and colby. They were all smart. In fact, i think you can call them intellectuals because they were voracious readers, they were thoughtful, and they were creatures of reason. But these werent the ivory tower type of guys who would sit around for hours in doubtful introspection. These were strong, decisive and supremely confident men of action. They were do canners who believed they could shape history rather than letting it control them. So what do they do in world war ii . Well start with dulles. He was born in 1893 with a clubfoot. Surgeons repaired it, but the family always treated this as some kind of deep, dark secret. His father was a liberal presbyterian minister, his mother came from diplomatic nobility. Allens grandfather and his uncle on his mothers side were secretaries of state. Dulles was a precocious child. When he was 8 years old, he wrote a book on the second boor war. Yeah. It was only 31 pages long, had a lot of spelling mistakes, but his grandfather published 700 copies of it, and he got a good review in the Washington Post from it. [laughter] he went to princeton, played around a lot until his senior year, and then he finally buckled down. In 1916 he joined the state department, and during world war i he was stationed with the americans in bern, switzerland. By default, he became the legations intelligence officer, and neutral switzerland was an espionage haven for the warring powers at that time. Dulles basically taught himself how to be a spy, and he learned some hard lessons on the job. Late one afternoon, for example, a man with a thick russian accent phoned the legation and insisted on talking to an american diplomat. Dulles was late for a tennis date. He told the man to come back the next moing when the legation opened, and he hung up. He found out later that the russian was Vladimir Lenin who was headed back to his homeland the next morning. Dulles would tell that anecdote time and again to new cia officers, never turn down a meeting, even with the shadiest character. He earned a law degree, left the state department in 1926 and joined sullivan and cromwell, one of the most powerful law firms in the world. And by 1930 allen was having numerous extramarital affairs, which his wife, clover, of course, didnt much appreciate. In the months before pearl harbor, dulles had picked up rumors that donovan had been made chief of some nefarious spy group with secret funds the white house controlled. He knew donovan. He liked beating him on the tennis court. But he decided to keep his distance from donovans group to see what else might be opened if the United States joined the war. After pearl harbor dulles decided to join the oss. Already wealthy from his law practice, he agreed to take no government salary while he served in the spy agency. His first job was organizing a major intelligence outpost in new york city to hatch covert operations against germany. It turned out new york was actually a good spot for recruiting foreign spies back then. The city was filled with immigrants, deposed royalty, european expats, many of them pretty shady characters dreaming up schemes in their manhattan salons for underground revolts in the nazioccupied countries. Donovan and dulles werent particularly bothered that a lot of these wouldbe emigre spies turned out to be a waste of their time. New york became a laboratory for dulles experiments in intelligence gathering. So, for example, he organized a project to counterfeit enemy currency. He bought clothes from european refugees as men interviewed so oss agents infiltrating enmy territory could wear the garments to blend in. He even started a secret unit to tap into the records that American Insurance Companies held on their excess business clients before the war. Now, why would he be interested in insurance files . Well, those files often contained the blue prints of the buildings being insured. Allied air forces found those blueprints particularly useful when they were trying to figure out how to bomb the structures. In november 1942 just after the allies invasion of north africa, the torch invasion, dulles slipped into switzerland with orders from donovan to penetrate nazi germany. In bern he set up what amounted to a mini cia, running espionage operations, funding guerrilla missions in occupied france and italy and inundating washington with Foreign Policy advice, most of it unsolicited. They werent really interested. For his staff dulles recruits a handful of americans living in switzerland. One of them was mary bancroft, an american socialite, who eventually became his mistress there. He had scores of inform minutes on his payroll. Many of them turned out to be professional snitches who often passed the same secrets to the germans in the morning, the british in the afternoon and to dulles in the evening. But dulles met em all. He didnt want to repeat the mistake he made in world war i with Vladimir Lenin, and he had some prized sources. He recruited, for example, fritz colby, a short, bald, German Foreign office diplomat with big ears and beady eyes who delivered some 1,000 secret nazi political, military and intelligence cables to dulles. Colby first had the documents strapped around his leg when he sneaked into switzerland. Dulles eventually gave him a miniature camera so he could photograph the material and hide the film in a watch case. Another valuable source was hans gesevius, a very stern major who had come to detest hitler. On his visits to bern, he would brief dulles on the dissents remaining in germany who were laying plans to assassinate adolf hitler in what became known as the value create plot valkyrie plot. Remember tom cruise did a movie on it. He was a hulk of a man, over six feet tall, his code name was tiny. Now lets turn to bill casey. His birth in 1913 set a family record that his mother could have done without. He arrived weighing a staggering 14 pounds. [laughter] i know, everybody goes, ooh, right. The son of a new york tammany hall bureaucrat, casey was a bright child, but he drove the nuns at the Catholic Schools nuts because he seemed determined to educate himself as he saw fit. He went to fordham university, he was the first in his family to go to college. Then he went to Catholic University of america in washington to be a social worker. He quickly became disenchanted with social work after serving in the new york social Work Department for about six months. He thought welfare money was being wasted, and roosevelt was a bleeding heart liberal. Casey earned a law degree going tonight school, and by the time hitler invaded poland, he was working as an analyst for the Research Institute of america which was a think tank in new york and washington that advised businesses on how to land government contracts in roosevelts new deal. After the United States entered the war, casey who soon was married with a baby girl wanted in on the action. He talked the navy into making him a lieutenant junior grade. It took some convincing, however. The navy at first didnt think he was officer material, but they ended up finding a place for him in the shipbuying program. Bored, though, with pushing paper for the navy, casey noticed that a number of wealthy young men were signing on with this secret organization that donovan had set up. He managed to wangle an interview with donovans recruiters, but they also werent particularly impressed with this officer who didnt seem to have much military bearing. But they hired him, and they quickly discovered casey was a whiz at administration and from his Research Institute of america days, he could analyze big chunks of information and write clear intelligence reports. So they packed him off to the oss very important london station at glover in square to manage the flow of paperwork there. In short order casey had his hand in every major operation the station was running. He was like a human tornado. As one officer there said of him, you could not not Pay Attention to bill casey. Donovan soon was impressed with this 31yearold navy lieutenant, and in december 1944 he made casey his chief of secret intelligence for europe and ordered him to infiltrate oss agents into the third reich. That was a daunting mission. Even though it was losing the war by this time, nazi germany was still one of the worlds most tightlyrun police states. The average german citizen had up to 18 different basic identity documents that an oss unit, code name bach, had to forge. So casey, who eventually had330 people working for him, had to scramble. In the last five months of the war, he managed to parachute more than 150 agents into germany to radio back intelligence for the advancing allied armies. His spies often had to improvise on the fly. For example, a twoman team code named chauffer enlisted the help of two french women working, forced to work in a baa varon brothel baa bavarian brothel. The women would entice secrets from their customers while one of the oss agents hid in the closet with a flashlight taking notes. [laughter] bill colby, our next subject. He was born in 1920. He was an army brat. His father, who rose to the rank of colonel, was something of a curmudgeon, not a particularly pleasant guy to be around. Colby spent his early years moving from one duty station to another which was an education in itself. He wanted to follow into his fathers footsteps and be an army officer, but he graduated from high school ahead of schedule at the age of 16. His yearbook had nicknamed him the brain, and he was too young to enter west point. So he went to princeton, like dulles did, and was eventually commissioned in rotc Second Lieutenant in august 1941 after he turned 31. Bill colby 21. Bill colby liked to quote napoleons Standing Order for his troops; march to the sound of the guns. But after pearl harbor it seemed to colby as if he was marching in the opposite direction, farther and farther away from the sound of those guns. He was put in the Artillery Branch in oklahoma teaching students how to fire howitzers. One day he spotted a notice that said the army wanted volunteers for paratroopers in an airborne artillery unit. Colby applied, but he worried that his poor eye sight might disqualify him. So he memorized the eye chart when the doctor wasnt in the room. Of course, the doctor caught him. But he figured colbys eyes were probably good enough to see the ground when he parachuted to it, so he passed him. Bad luck struck once more. On his second jump at fort benning, georgia, where he was training to be a paratrooper, he broke his right ankle. By the time it healed and he finished what remained of his airborne training, he was stuck in a replacement pool at camp mccall, north carolina. Desperate to get to the sound of those guns. In mid october, 1943, he spotted another notice tacked to another bulletin board, this one from some strange organization hed never heard of called the o, s which said if you were a paratrooper and you spoke french and colby spoke french and you were looking for adventure, call this number. So he called. And by the end of the month, he was at the Congressional Country Club just outside of washington that the oss had taken over to train spies and saboteurs. The secret operation he was training for, which was codenamed jedberg, was commissioned to organize resistance attacks against the nazis. From the Congressional Country Club, colby and the other oss recruit ares were packed off for more guerrilla training at a remote camp in maryland near fdrs president ial retreat which is now called camp david. Their next stop was peter borrow, just north of london, and a Country Estate called milton hall where the british continued to train them in what became a Multinational Force mainly of british, french and american officers. This was even more rigorous guerrilla training, and there was somewhat of a culture clash between the american and the british commandos. For example, colby and the other americans had to learn the british way of parachuting. British commandos jumped out of planes at altitudes as low as 500 feet, and their parachutes did not come with a spare in case the first one didnt work. At that low altitude, you really didnt have time to deploy a spare anyway. The instructors told them that if their chute didnt open, to bring it back, and well give you a new one. [laughter] of course, the americans didnt find that joke particularly funny. Finally in august 1944, colbys threeman team dropped into the burr gandhi region southeast of burgundy region as Pattons Third Army approached. The secret war they fought was complicated. Colbys team had to deal with an assortment of resistance factions that were poorly trained and equipped, where each faction seemed to have a private political agenda, and they often squabbled among themselves as much as they fought the nazis. And colby didnt know it at the time, but one of the top resistance leaders he was working with, a man named roger, was secretly collaborating with the germans. The top spy catcher in france, a guy named hugo bliesher, had recruited roger to betray his country. After the third army passed through burgundy and colbys assignment ended, he next led a norwegian Commando Team in 1945. Their mission, which was code named repay after a local bird that changed colors with the season, was to help keep some 300,000 german occupiers bottled up in norway so they couldnt be transferred back to germany to fight the allied advance. This was a tough mission. Colbys men ended up fighting norways brutal Winter Weather as much as they did the germans. Half of his 30man team never made it to norway because planes carrying them couldnt find the drop zone in the snow or they crashed. Colbys commandos did manage to blow up a bridge and destroy a section of track on the rail line which was carrying german troops north to south. But the raids were very risky, and the skiing was absolutely exhausting. Colbys team nicknamed one of the mountains they had to ski over to escape a nazi patrol benzadrine hill because practically all of them had to pop the stimulus to get to its peak. Finally, richard helms. He was born barely two weeks after casey in 1913, but any similarity between the two boys stopped there. Helms grandfather was a Famous International banker. His father was an alcoa executive who, along with his mother, suffered bouts of depression. The family lived abroad with helms attended a Pricey Private School in switzerland and later in germany. It was a cosmopolitan education that helms later thought was ideal for a spy. Back home he became a big man on campus at williams college, one of the little ivies, and Harvard Law School open to him if he wanted it. Colby instead chose journalism. He hoped to publish a newspaper one day. He signed on with the united press, and by 1935 became one of the news agencys correspondents in berlin where adolf hitler was wildly popular. His prized assignment came in september 1936 when he covered the annual Nazi Party Congress in nuremberg. After the rally hitler invited helms and a half dozen other foreign correspondents to a lunch after nuremberg castle. Helms was surprised how unremarkable the furor looked to him. His eyes, everyone claimed, were hypnotic, actually a dull slate blue protruding somewhat from his head, and helms thought they were quite ordinary. His pasty, white face was tinged slightly pink, gold filled his teeth, and when he talked to the reporters, his knees rocked back and forth which helms thought was kind of odd. But it was clear after the luncheon conversation with hitler that the dictator was intent on going to war. After pearl hard door helms harbor helms joined the navy and was perfectly happy in the new york office plotting merchant ship movements to avoid german uboat packs when out of the blue the oss summoned him to its Washington Headquarters in august 1943. Donovans agency had sent a request to the navy for an officer who spoke french and german, who had lived overseas and who worked as a reporter. An ibm computer in the navys Personnel Office spit out helms name. The next thing helms knew, he was in a farmhouse in the countryside north of baltimore for two weeks of spy training. He learned how to build a cover story to hide his identity, how to pick locks and burglarize offices, how to blackmail foreign officials for secrets, how to evade shadowing by a gestapo agent, how to fight dirty with knives or pistols or the jagged edge of a whiskey bottle in a bar. Toward the end of his second week of training as a field exercise, helms was sent out with just 18 in his pocket to try to talk his way into a pittsburgh steel plant and abscond with documents on the types of war goods it manufactured. The oss called these training exercises schemes. His palms sweating and his stomach all knotted up, helms managed to get himself into the plant. He scooped up handfuls of papers on unattended desks, and he slipped past inattentive guards. Now, two weeks wasnt enough to make helms a proficient spy. If he was actually going out in the field, he would have gotten much more training. But it was enough for a staff job in the oss Washington Headquarters on navy hill where he first served in a planning grape dreaming up operations for oss stations abroad and then coordinated intelligence gathering on the germans. He also had some other odd jobs too. Donovan brought charles de gaulles intelligence chief, who was this unsavely french unsavory french colonel, to the United States for what amounted to a junket to butter him up. Because he spoke french and he had been a newspaperman, helms was assigned to the escort team for the colonel. The colonel and his aides. With the very Important Mission of keeping the frenchmans visit out of american newspapers. For three weeks the military plane flew the frenchman, helms and other escorts around the United States to see the sights. So they had an expensive night out at antoines restaurant in new orleans. In Hollywood Studio executives arrange ared for highpriced call girls to entertain the colonel and his aides in their hotel rooms. Fortunately for helms, nothing ever got in the newspapers about this. He finally made it to london in january 1945. He roomed with casey who lived like a slob. And he worked for him keeping an eye on the joe handlers. Oss spies the oss spent out were called joes, and the oss, an oss handler was assigned to watch over them until they boarded the plane and headed over Enemy Territory and parachuted out. Helms would drive out to Harrington Field north of london with the joes and their handlers, watch the planes take off with the spies, then hed wait at the airport for the pilot to return to report back to him that the drop had been successful. After germany surrendered, helms and dulles moved into wartorn berlin to set up a spy station. Its hard for us to imagine today just how devastated, how chaotic and how violent europe was just after germanys surrender. Berlin was like the wild west when helms arrived. Millions of homeless and starving souls filled the city. Billions of flies buzzed over thousands of rotting corporation corpses in the double corpses in the rubble. Criminal gangs roamed the streets, and soviet spies infested the wen sectors, the americans, the british and the french occupied. Helms and the other station officers hunted for war criminals, tracked down artwork the nazis had stolen, helped round up german scientists and even located a nurse from the furor bunker near the reich chancellery who detailed for them hitlers final days before his suicide. The targets of helms spying soon switched from the remnants of nazi germany to the soviets who occupied east berlin. And, under highly classified orders from donovan, helms and the other operatives in the berlin station also spied on the british and the french in their sectors as well. Donovan assumed the british and the french were spying on the americans, so he wanted to return the favor. Helms, dulles, colby and casey all returned home from world war ii not emotionally drained or scarred from what they experienced. You dont find any ptsd belong these four men. Instead, they returned to europe rather invigorated from their fight and ready for the next battle which was against communism. World war ii had a huge impact on their lives. Dulles ran the cia much as he did his oss station in bern. The oss taught helms how to be a spy, and after the war he decided that his intelligence collection was his calling and not newspaper publishing. Colby, who wore a floppy fatigue hat from the war when he tended his garden, got a law degree but quickly grew bored with being a lawyer. He joined the cia to fight communists as he had the nazis. When casey became cia director, he hung too pictures in his office two pictures in his office at his office in langley; Ronald Reagans and a photo of wild bill donovan, his mentor. Let me end it there. We can talk about, you know, if youve got any questions, we can talk about these four men, anything else they did during the war, their legacy or anything else youve got on your mind. All these men fought in the european theater and, obviously, the oss had operations in the pacific as well, right . Yeah. The question is this story is about their secret war in the european theater, what kind of operations did the oss have in the pacific. The short answer, actually, is not much. Douglas macarthur didnt think much of donovans organization, and he only allowed a handful of people in. He was commander of the southwest pacific forces. Commander of the northwest pacific forces, admiral nimitz, didnt see any use for a bunch of spies and propagandists in what was naturally a naval war. So donovan ended up having most of his operations in china and also the burma theater launching attacks against the japanese occupiers there. In china, though, it was another case where it took him a long time to get to war because he spent a lot of time spying on chiang kaisheks operatives who spied on his men too. In fact, donovan at one point set up a phony newspaper in china and had newspapermen posing as spies to collect intelligence on what chiang was doing. It wasnt a very ethical thing to do. Dulles was in bern, would he not have had to keep this operation a secret even from the swiss government . The question is when dulles was in bern, did he have to keep his operations secret from the swiss government . The answer is, no. Not only did he not really keep it secret from the swiss government, he didnt deep it keep it secret from the germans or anybody else. And the reason was largely practical. When dulles got into bern in november 1942, he didnt have three years to set up, you know, an undercover, clandestine spy operation and infiltrate, you know, agents into germany or start collecting information. He had to hit the floor running. So both he and donovan decided that the germans are probably going to find out what youre doing anyway, so he practically hung a shingle out of his apartment that said, you know, snitches and informants are welcome. [laughter] he really did. Now, as a result of that, he got a lot of gestapo agents trying to infiltrate his operation. The soviet Intelligence Service penetrated him too. Fortunately, the germans knew he was some type of special representative from fdr, and the reason they knew it, because they read it in the paper. [laughter] dulles leaked a story that he had come there as a special representative of fdr are. That didnt take much spywork. But they assumed he was just there collecting economic secrets. And really the germans assumed anybody in any type of American Diplomatic Mission was a spy. It didnt matter who they were. So they treated them all as that. So the result is that, yeah, he was penetrated, but it didnt really produce that much. [inaudible] i was born in berlin in 1938 wow. [inaudible] and i remember as a child in 1945 or 46 going to the zoo and the american soldiers were feeding the animals cigarettes. Yeah. The question was occupied berlin at the zoo the tier garden, right, that american soldiers were feeding the animals cigarettes. This is probably what remained of the animals there because because of the heavy bombing by soviet artillery and american bombs, a lot of the animals fled literally on fire. I mean, it was really horrific. So there wasnt much left there to smoke. But, yeah. It was occupation to troops, it kind of, you know, there were problems on all sides. You know, there was a high venereal disease rate among american soldiers in berlin. There was a big problem with the black marketing and allied forces there. Dulles had a big problem in his own oss station there with some oss officers making a killing on swiss watches they were sneaking into the country and reselling at inflated prices. In fact, he had to clean out some of the people in his station. A lot, what turned out a lot of cases where there was g. I. S that were committing crimes or anything were actually very often nkgb officers in g. I. Institutes committing the crimes to cast a bad light on the american occupiers. But there was still a problem with it. The russians dealt with their problem basically shooting anybody that got too far out of hand. But it was, it was really a chaotic experience. The war did not end on may 8th, 1945. I mean, the killing did not end then. You had millions and millions of displaced people moving around europe. The place was still violent. There was still a lot of death, and it was is till a lot of chaos in berlin still a lot of chaos in berlin. [inaudible] the question is did dulles get along with eisenhower. Yeah. He did. Actually, donovan got along with eisenhower too. And donovan didnt get along with a lot of american generals and admirals. Because he tended to make end runs around them to get what he wanted which didnt make him too popular. So eisenhower saw a lot of value in what dulles was producing in switzerland. Keep in mind switzerland was really the allies or the american allies, their portal to germany. Itthis was, i mean, it was sucha tightlycontrolled police state, it was difficult to get agents in. You had to look at germany through switzerland. And dulles, you know, came up with some very significant finds like fritz colby. Even though the pentagon at first thought he was, you know, a double agent. So did the british too. But, yeah, ike appreciated what they were doing. Yeah. How did dulles get along with his brother, john foster . Question is how did dulles get along with his brother, john foster dulles. Foster was secretary of state in the eisenhower administration. He was also a senior partner in sullivan and cromwell, the International Law firm, and he recruited dulles to come to the law firm. In the family foster was always kind of the number one, the leader of the kids, of the siblings, and fullless looked up to him. Dulles looked up to him. So when, and dulles became eisenhowers cia director with a lot of help from foster who was the secretary of state. Dulles deferred to foster in the eisenhower administration. He didnt overtly try to make Foreign Policy, but he saw himself as a, you know, a Foreign Policy instrument in the eisenhower administration. And, in fact, there were a lot of people who thought dulles should have been secretary of state, because foster was a real dour, kind of morose type of guy, not that much fun to be around, and dulles was a conversationalist, very smooth, you know, and everything. And so people tended to like him even when he was asking them to do a lot of dirty things. So, you know, its like any brothers relationship, but it made him very, very powerful in the the eisenhower administration, to have these two brothers controlling all the National Security levers, overt and covert. Yeah. I found your story of tiny very, very interesting. Do you know if he survived the war . Yeah, this is tiny, who was actually part after a group of Senior Officers under the director of the [inaudible] who also hated hitler and secretly encouraged the dissident movement that led to the valkyrie plot. Tiny was there in berlin when the plot was unfolding that day and failed. Im not sure which one he was in the tom cruise film, but he was one of the guys there. He managed to escape though. He managed to get out before they they rounded up everybody else and just executed them right on the spot or, you know, or scooped them up and tortured them and executed them later. Hugo escaped into berlin, roamed all over berlin for months. It was hard for him to hide out because he was so tall. He couldnt walk around on sidewalks. Eventually, dulles managed to get the london straight to fabricate, to forge the identity documents he would need to get out of germany and into switzerland, and they had an agent slip those identity documents to him including, you know, gestapo badge, you know, passports and everything. And he was able to climb aboard a train, actually, with a senior gestapo delegation on it. He was hiding in plain sight, and he made his way to bern, swisserland, where he switzerland, where he finally hooked up with dulles. His hair had turned completely white, it destroyed him mentally. To what degree kid kennedys reliance did kennedys reliance and interaction with the cia change after the bay of pigs . The question was how did kennedys interaction or reliance on the cia change after the bay of pigs. Theres a story that circulated around, and its been reported in other books, that after the bay of pigses kennedy wanted to break up the cia into a million pieces. And he fired dulles. Eventually over it. And, i mean, he obviously treated intelligence and the military too, because the military talked him into it as well, with a very jaundiced eye afterwards. But he was, he took the bullet. He didnt, you know, he didnt publicly blame dulles. I mean, there was, like, a year interval before he fired him. And, you know, its interesting. You remember in the famous kennedy press conference where hes admitting that, you know, the bay of pigs thing, and he talked about success having, you know, a hundred fathers and failure being an orphan . You know where he got that line . It was from a manuscript, the foreign minister of italy who was eventually executed by mussolini. His wife sneaked out, and dulles helped get it published eventually in american newspapers, and there was a little line in there that he said that particular quote. I dont think kennedy ever knew where in the world it came from or how he even heard it. But a little factoid there. Yeah. This might not be in your research, but i was wondering if any of these gentlemen were involved or aware of the enigma project that was going on, breaking of the german code and did they have any role in it or was it shared later on . Good question. The question is were any of these four subjects involved in ultra, this was the program, the british program that broke the German Military code. It was kind of an interesting relationship that not only the senior people in the oss and donovan had with british. The british gave donovan access to the raw files of ultra which were very, very helpful to him particularly in building up his counterespionage service. Ironically, general george marshall, the chief of staff of the army, would not give donovan access to the magic code breaking. That raw tape. This was the codebreaking capability of japanese diplomatic and military cables. Marshall worried that donovans men couldnt keep a secret, and it would leak out. So donovan, in effect, had a closer relationship with the british Intelligence Service than he did with his own government during the war. Ultra was particularly helpful not messily directly for necessarily directly for dulles, but for the people who were evaluating the intelligence dulles was producing and sending to washington. Initially in the first months of setting up his station, he had a batting average on the intelligence he set up. He passed along rumors and things that just werent true and everything, and at one point donovan, one of his senior aides, sent him a very pointed cable that said that the militarys discounting 100 everything youre sending us. Well, as intelligence eventually improved particularly with fritz colby, he was the Foreign Office diplomat that brought in, you know, the real good stuff what they would do was look at the ultra take, what they were getting on ultra, and compare it to what colby was telling them that was happening either in the Foreign Office or the military, and they saw it matched up. And it wasnt until about six, seven months of colby supplying those intelligence when they were crosschecking with ultra that they finally determined that, you know, colby wasnt a plant. He wasnt feeding them chicken feed. Everybody know what chicken feed . Thats the intelligence term of useless information you feed to the enemy to ingratiate yourself with them. Well, they determined that colby was the real thing. Took the british a little bit longer to agree to that. But thats where ultra was helpful for them. Yeah. You mentioned, i believe, that colby was at camp mccall . Yeah. Had german. O. W. S arrived p. O. W. S arrived there while he was there . Good question. Camp mccall, north carolina, were german p. O. W. S there when colby was . I dont know when they got there. He was there in August September going into early october 1943. He never mentioned any of that in his, you know, memoirs, and i never really found anything on it. He didnt particularly like camp mccall, because he was stuck there in a replacement pool, and there were a lot of other people heading over to germany in airborne around tilley units which turned out to be, he thought, a ridiculous idea, you know . Because you got when you drop a howitzer out of a plane, they had to drop them in nine different parts out of the plane because they were too heavy in one. When it landed, invariably they couldnt find all nine parts, you know, to put the darn thing back together again. [laughter] so colby didnt see much hope for airborne artillery. So he spent most of his time there trying to figure out how to get out of there. I doubt if he noticed any folks there. Im not sure when the german p. O. W. S the german p. O. W. S picked peaches on my farm and cut my hair. Really . How about that . Thats interesting. [laughter] did dulles ever run across kim phil by in world war two. No, he didnt, but he entered into the dulles story at a very critical point. What it was was toward, as the war was getting near its end, dulles was conducting secret negotiations with an ss general in northern italy for the surrender of the northern, northern german or the forces, German Forces in northern italy. This was in advance of the overall surrender of allied troops. Hed been working on it for a long time. It was a very torturous tip diplomatic negotiation that he was doing in complete secrecy. The americans code named the operation sunrise, the british code named it crossword because dulles i mean, because churchill thought it was just an impenetrable crossword puzzle how they were ever going to come to this. Where colby fits into the picture i mean, where philby fits into the picture was the russians were outraged when they started picking up word about these secret negotiations, this sunrise talk between dulles station and the germans occupying northern italy. In fact, stalin and roosevelt exchanged some of the most hostile, meanspirited letters the two guys ever did during the war over the sunrise talks. The russians thought that, you know, dulles they were negotiating a secret surrender so German Forces in northern italy would march on russia which wasnt really the case. And the russians wanted to come in there themselves. Well, the russians colby kept his sunrise operation very, very secret. He even kept it secret from the british for a while. But the russians turned out were able to learn about sunrise through kim philby who was feeding him a lot of the information out of london on what was going on. And im sure dulles, of course, he didnt realize this until long after the war, you know, what that kind of betrayal entailed. Yeah. You tell us anything about the dulles brothers involvement in the overthrow of the newlyelected leader of iran in the early 50s . The question is the dulles brothers involvement in the overthrow of the duallyelected leader of iran in the 50s. Yes, they were involved. Not only that, they were involved in the overthrow of the president of guatemala, too, around that time also. Both of which in the guatemala case ushered in decades of brutal military rule in that poor country, and, of course, in iran ushered in the shah of iran which after that came the ayatollah. So, i mean, they were considered within the agency highly successful operations that had grave historical ramifications now. This wasnt a rogue operation by dulles, the dulles brothers. Eisenhower was behind it and fully approved it. I mean, you know, you talk about the assassination plotting of some of the other ones, castro, whatever the cia tried and never really accomplished. These were things that eisenhower was fixated on too, you know . He was giving the green light on it, you know . Dulles had a habit of testing the edge of the envelope on his orders, you know, and he might trip over a little bit, but he was, you know, he was wildly popular in the 50s. I mean, his cover was on time magazine, you know, as americas super spy. I had read that the dulles brothers had planning that overthrow even before eisenhower was sworn in. Once they found out he was elected, they figured that they would get their way. I dont know if you read anything about that yourself. I dont know about foster. I could see allen because he was actually a Deputy Director at the cia during the Truman Administration under general smith
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