Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Bad Faith 20150412

So 15 to 20 million unit total and so that was hot and heavy in 2012. Cspan did you print a lot of harry potter books . Guest we did a lot of the harry potter here and basically that was a big seller obviously and then went out to do or volumes in addition. Was a bigger than 50 shades of gray . It was quite different. It is a hardcover. Definitely a bigger undertaking. I think 50 shades of gray in one block of time for one season was probably one of the biggest there ever has been. Cspan how many employees you have . Guest told about 640. Variable graphics, coral graphics and dynamic graphic finishing. Host how far is it from washington . Guest we are about an hour and a half from washington d. C. We go back in the 50s and 60s when the manufacturing side. They always be the farmers that people that have a cannibal aptitude and draw them into the fact areas which was kind of the mind that. Cspan mark bone general manager at very those graphics. Thank you. Booktv continues now with dr. Paul offit, at the Childrens Hospital of philadelphia talks about the dangers of faith healing in the fluids of nonexperts in medicine today. My pleasure here tonight is to introduce a good acquaintance of mine who is the chief at the division of Infectious Diseases and a director of the Vaccine Education Center at Childrens Hospital in philadelphia. One of the worlds truly great hospitals. Hes also a professor of fax technology and pediatrics at the university of Pennsylvania School of medicine. In medical circles and sometimes outside of their come up all his best known as the coinventor wrote the rotavirus vaccine. We dont worry much about rotavirus in this country so one of the numbers i could tell you to give your night yet how important rotavirus is, this vaccine probably saves around 650,000 lives a year. That is an impressive number, but i went and looked out. Were talking about the population of baltimore or nashville or denver or the district columbia appeared every year escape because of this vaccine. Paul is also a founding Advisory Board member of the autism science foundation. He has won many awards including the bradley prize for excellence and pediatrics at the university of maryland for those of you in medicine, hes a member of academy of science. A very distinguished physician. Hes published by books and more than 140 papers. His latest book bad faith when religious belief undermines modern medicine and addresses the dangers of faith healing. David oshinsky was the director of the division of medical humanities at nyu said no position today writes with more passion and courage about the impact of quack a tree zealotry, hucksterism in that science upon the health of our children. Hes a wonderful, distinguished physician. Is a health advocate. He is not shy about standing up for what is true and is truly shown to be into peerreviewed literature and it gives me great pleasure to introduce dr. Paul offit. [applause] thank you for the kind introduction. I wrote this book because i lived through the 1991 philadelphia measles epidemic. I dont know if and if youre old enough to remember this, but in a threemonth period is 1400 cases in philadelphia. We had five children die in attending. Nonacademic on two fundamental churches in the city. One hopper back to church. Both of those churches are still active. The mortality rate of children in most churches is one dirty five. The reason that happen they told not to vaccinate their children but chose not to seek out medical care when they became sick. Instead of giving him oxygen, they prayed. And that scarred me how a plus parents could make the choice in how was that could allow them to make a choice. The book is in part about great feeling. Roughly 25 sacks in the United States. Meningitis or prayer instead of insulin for diabetes or prayer instead of a bronchodilators for asthma and i just needed to understand how parents could come to that choice. The book is not only about faith healing. It touches on other aspects work allies such as reproductive rights. Abortion exorcism. And i get into a little bit of an Orthodox Jewish ritual of circumcision. It is when does the circumcision when cleaning off the one with sterile gauze it is up with the water does the ritual circumcision and i circumcision and that can lead to simplex virus infection than it cost about or two children to die or have permanent brain damage. Let me read one faction that relates to another philadelphia story to give you a sense of this. In 1997 commitsyearold Michael Holman was played in the backyard when his mother heard him scream. She ran out to find he stepped on a piece of glass. Michaels father immediately brought to sunset in the towel but it didnt stop. They were wrapped surmounted by a disposable diaper. The bandage quickly soaked with blood. The next morning the bandage was rewrapped using a heavier fabric at the bleeding continues. Instead of calling the doctor. Susan said when you are sick you pray and ask the lord to heal you. And he became more. Crying out in pain. Michael died in his mothers science. And not taxi showed you last night and half his blood volume. He had hemophilia that retreated and a problem that could have been obvious as their son had suffered frequent and severe bruising throughout his young life. The hemophilia specialist at the Childrens Hospital said shed never seen a child die from this cut. Part of the draw the challenge was to understand how parents could make the choice. As a parent, one in staying. If someone came and put a a gun and said ill take your life for her childs life, you will take your life every time. I dont think these parents are any different. Unlike what we see with children who are neglected or abused in the medically neglect did and these are parents who are devoted to their children, yet these faith healing parents were very much devoted and left their children. What is it that allows them to trump the primal child. I go to remember things because of the spectrum could one hand could be the charm of the charismatic leader and the people in the case of baker eddy or jim jones at peoples temple are people like Marshall Applewhite with heavens gate or other groups that i think is david kerr, for example. The other reasons can be things like ones choice to literally turbot bibles or the seduction of having but the thing i struggled most with and i figured it out because i dont think i did this how you really separate what is a strongly held religious belief from what is a dangerous delusion. The guy who i spent time with on the phone with a man named larry parker. You would think from the title is not. It is actually a book bag rewards his and his wifes faithfulness, which they continue to maintain throughout their sons illness. This was a father who belonged to a Mainstream Church in california. He was also unlike many parents medically quite sophisticated. He knew his father son had type one diabetes. Hed been giving him insulin for years. He understood what the signs and symptoms were that too much insulin and too little insulin. They prayed for the suns diabetes to go away. He was joined by his wife and neither prayer group. Their son over a threeday period sunk deeper and deeper into something called diabetic you daughter does this where they had a more listless headache, vomiting nausea, and eventually slipped into a coma and died in front of him. He then risen during the Funeral Service that he was going to resurrect his son. There were people in the service that are here today. There were many major media groups. He prayed for the sun to be resurrected. He decided not to go he believed he would rise from the rise from your four days later as they had been claimed to do. He was arrested as was his life for murder. Later the charge was reduced to the felony of manslaughter and felony child endangerment. Let me just sort of read my one section on mr. Parker. In a more rational world someone like larry parker may not be labeled with some thing as gentle as a personality that went through a series of personality disorders. In my view he would be considered psychotic meaning possessing the nonexistent sense of reality. Unfortunately for people with religious police its difficult to know where to draw the line between faith and dilution. For example the physical deterioration was a trick prey by faith. He was well. The double by making it look like leslie was sick. Its hard to label this as anything other than delusional. Many americans believe they roam the earth so in some ways larry parker represents a cultural norm. Leslies Funeral Service was being held on holy ground causing him to ask everyone to remove their shoes for his belief that god had sent an angel in the form of a bearded and to help with the resurrection. Many religions claim holy ground and believe in angels and demons. Larry parker is far from alone. If larry parkers actions are considered psychotic, we have a similarly labeled those who participated in dilution including lucky his wife her prayer group in f1 who showed up at the Funeral Service hoping to see a resurrection. Even luckys lawyer Lee Roy Simmons reassured her that he too believed in faith healing and we would also have to label as psychotic 50,000 christian scientists and tens of thousands of americans who comprise 20 or so other sites. Anyone who believes in resurrection, a popular evangelist and they never have been, no one rushed to no one rushed to put them in an institution after he made the claims and many members of the complication believed that this is not to say that one could reasonably label a psychotic all those who share the parker saluted release in faith healing the resurrection. Just that you get to a point for so many people share a certain belief that calling than delusional becomes harder to do. Another aspect of days was the episode that i lived there in philadelphia in 1891 is how we let it happen. This sort of thing faith healing, where children suffer and die needlessly to not have been in england and it doesnt happen in canada. As a general rule american law follows british love the mouse also true here. You really couldnt do this up until the mid1970s. That is when things change and ironically the reason that changes because of some in that Hubert Humphrey had done and he had created millions of dollars in federal funds to try and recognize, treat and prevent child abuse and that was called child abuse protection and treatment act. It was passed by the Nixon Administration. The Nixon Administration that there was about to be uncomfortable light shone on their christian scientists will come under fire for what essentially is medical neglect. They put in a caveat that no state could receive federal funds unless they had an place a religious exemption to child abuse and neglect laws. All 50 states initially passed the laws. Those two christian scientists later went to jail for their role in watergate. One was nixons chief of staff. The other was his chief domestic adviser john ehrlichman. Watergate never seems to go away, does there . [laughter] the other thing that i struggled with in this book was trying to sort of figure out how i would approach it from a health standpoint in that i am not a particularly religious person. I thought when i first wrote it that i would take the stance that was taken by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens or sam harris for that kind of elected atheism. I didnt end up there. Not at all actually. The reason was they tried to see this from the parent standpoint. When we dealt with these parents in philadelphia in 1991 they invariably say jesus was my doctor. I tried to take the set date value family through what is known about the historical jesus, the new testament to put them in some sort of historical context. I just sort of didnt end up there. I sort of read through the new testament, you cant help but be impressed independent of whether you believe there is a supreme being, independent of whether you believe jesus was the son of god come independent whether you believe the four gospels are an accurate representation of jesus life and work. You have to be impressed by the figure described as jesus of nazareth because at the time of his life, roughly four b. C. To 38 d. Child abuse was the crime advice of the roman empire. Abandonment was common, children didnt count. Hippocrates who wrote endlessly about how one should interact with families ethically never mention children because children didnt matter. Children are no different than waves. They were property. The story after story you have been standing up for children at a time when children were considered relevant. For the children in the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Another line was verily i say unto you as much as you have done to the least of my brethren, you have done it to me. I think you could put that on the entrance way and place not on the entrance way of every Childrens Hospital of the world to be quite honest, the thing most exciting to me at the time this is all happening in a 291 was no one stood up for those children and it would have been reasonable for representatives of the church to stand up and say this is not us. This is not a christian thing to do. It reminds me of the line when all that math and majesty of this world come when all the carried weight and always with the same play in the hands of others come and they were small and could not hope for help and no help came and that is the way it felt then. There is an Unlikely Hero when this book. Her name is rita swan. I spent most of my time in talking to her. I probably spent 15 hours on the film with her. She was raised by christian scientists. She was a christian scientist. She watched her child over a 12 day. I have a treatable form of the two have meningitis because she chose prayer instead of antibiotics. What is was interesting about rita ishii is brilliant. She got her phd in english from vanderbilt. She did her thesis on british romantic poetry. Her husband also a scientist. When she explained to me with how i did wonders and how little she knew about the same. She was able to keep herself away from it. She didnt know that a few prevent infection, or when it all came crashing down when she lost her 15 monthold voip matthew ,com,com ma to bacterial meningitis, she changed. She decided to educate herself about medicine so i will read just one section relating to her. She also did one other in which a shooin on the phil donahue show and became the first person ever to stand up and declared major religion as a fraud. She really felt she had been duped and she was a thorn in the side of christian scientist and remains a thorn in the side of christian scientists for the decade shes been doing this. An analogy to the story can be found in m. Night shyamalans 2004 movie the village, the story of an Insular Community united by fear. But together by the murderer several philadelphians decide to create a 19th century Farming Community in rural pennsylvania. They believe it can be found by retreating into the past to isolate the community from a world they fear, others create mythical monster supposedly hiding in the woods referred to as the things of which we do not speak. The monsters wont bother the villagers as long as the villagers dont enter the woods. No one enters or leaves the village. Then something happens the elders have hadnt anticipated. When infection develops the other way to save him is that the antibiotics. The community has been created to mimic the late 1800s before antibiotics. When the monsters were a hoax others allow a young woman to travel through the woods and get the antibiotics they need here they pick her because she is lined hoping when she returns they want to realize the wealth of the lifesaving technology on the other side. Religions that have fathers to act against love, compassion and reason is a similar type it. Rita swan was afraid to see a doctor because her church believe. Yours want to dethrone god and are therefore evil. If she had thought of modern medicine she wouldve been forced to come or an evil and anger of god. Rita swan was implied. When she entered the Wayne State University medical librarian understood how she could have treated her son film as there was no going back even if it meant auspices from a community she had known all her life, even challenging her notion of god. Her break came when she realized nobody would ask your parents let her child die in his name. I believe the sabbath was made for man and not in for the side that. I think religion has to work. It has to bus people in if it doesnt, if it causes pain if it justifies cruelty, do something i dont want any part of. We have to be explicit and rejecting things cruel and unjust whether religious or not. Religion has to serve the good of humanity, not the other way around. What rita did when this happened to her is five years after her sons death, she created an Organization Called Childrens Health care is no legal duty and she spent every day of her life trying to overturn the religious base exemptions to child abuse and neglect in a variety of states. Shes been successful in six states and not a day goes by when she doesnt rally to do that. She is trying to fill in on fillable hole. She lives with the level of guilt that she feels she will never in any way lessen, but this is what she feels compelled to do. I will close by saying what i do for this book if i am donating to that organization, which is so amazingly worthwhile. I will stop there. Thank you. I will take your questions. [applause] i think there is a question back there. Thats the way it works in case you werent aware. Raise your hand i will call in you. There is a lady right here and i will go all the way back on this side. Hayek, are you saying and the rest of the state other than the 16th that is neglect is permitted and no one stands up and forces the kids to be helped . Is exactly what im saying. Look at the socalled schiavo case. These parents are part of the First Century gospel church. They choose prayer instead of antibiotics for bacterial pneumonia. When they made the choice, their son who was two years old died so what happened was they were put on probation. That is invariably the story. They dont lose capacity to raise other children. They dont spend a day in jail. What happens is a few years go by in a seven monthold brandon also dies because they also dont shes antibiotics. And it was spam their sense was reading a half to seven years and are put in foster care. That is always the way it works. You are allowed to neglect and not pay for it. I can tell you there are two major faith healing churches. First century gospel and Faith Tabernacle will not treat their children with antibiotics if they get pneumonia or meningitis. They will not give insulin for diabetes. They know it happens. What is interesting when the pedophilia scandal broke the commonwealth of pennsylvania made a big effort to crack down on child abuse laws. When it came to religion they didnt touch it. Politicians, religion is dynamite. What i try to do in this book is help lawmakers understand when people put their children in harms way in the name of god that its not a religious act in it shouldnt be given religious protection. Its not doing some in the name of religion if you expose your child to that harm. A Supreme Court ruling from 1944 if the massachusetts case where the ruling stated that most clearly. While you are at liberty to martyr yourself to your religion you are not at liberty in identical ways. They have no say in the outer. Gentlemen all the way in the back. It just seems there is a double standard for this activity. If you abuse a child and its not religiously motivated, you get severely punished for it but when you inject religion into it im a sort of get a slap on the risk and to me that kind of smells of theocracy. Im not sure what can be done about it. People need to be more vigilant than say if you abuse a child you abuse a child. It doesnt matter whether Roman Catholic or an atheist or whatever. The child still suffers and probably dies as a result of it. I couldnt agree more. If you for example choose not giving antiseizure medicine to your child with epilepsy in the name of god, you are good. If you do it in the name of spaghetti monster, you go to an institution. Its really how its raised. Gentleman in the blue. The first man you mention that for a long time he treated his son with insulin and then stopped. What made him stop . Is religion didnt change it. You belong to a Mainstream Church. He knew that his son had a lifelong illness. He knew that he was faithful to god and he believed that his faithfulness would be rewarded. People at to a number of lines especially in john were assessing your faithfulness he will be rewarded with a variety of things and he took it literally and believe to be prayed this would all go away. He sends his regrets decades later. That was the thinking at the time. It is interesting to me that his wife also went along with that as did about six or Seven Members of their prayer group. The pastor of his church was very upset and tried desperately to talk about today. His child died over a period of three days. Have there been studies and other countries, germany france, et cetera that show similar numbers in terms of people not been willing to vaccinate or that sort of thing . Are calling on religion . Faith tabernacle in other countries, especially in africa. As a general rule, it is somewhat unique to america. We were founded on especially religious freedoms and when it comes to religion we stand back or the First Amendment says Congress Shall enact no laws regarding the establishment of religion with the practice thereof. The truth is we do have laws regarding the practice of religion. Several examples of that. If the jehovahs witness chooses not to get a blood transfusion you can get a court order and give them a lifesaving blood transfusion. That is ruled in favor of the children as far as im turned. If you are a fundamentalist mormon, you technically are not allowed to practice polygamy. If you remember the native american church, this came up in a case in oregon if you believe smoking peyote helps to get closer to your creator. If that violates existing drug laws, which allow because peyote is mescaline, you are not allowed to do that. There are examples where we do make laws regarding the crack is the religion. If a faith healing case ever went to the Supreme Court it would really help. Rita swan has tried to do that. Shes tried to push these cases but theyve always stood back because no one likes to touch religion. Honestly it is that simple. Or at least what they perceive to be religion. Lady. Lady in the aisle right there. Is a practicing pediatrician, i loved your last book about religion science and vaccinations. Can you draw any similarities between the religious thing and the parents who dont vaccinate their children because they dont believe that . It is not religion, but it is denying the facts. Last book was titled do you believe in magic and do i think that theres some aspects of alternative medicine with religious overtones . In the sense is the belief. Sometimes people say regarding vaccines, how can i get parents to believe in vaccines . They are not a belief system. Is the mountain of evidence. I think i am very fair to faith and religion in this book because so much good has been done. You cant set the whole thing aside. Religion is a matter of faith. You have to believe in the existence of things which sort of live above the natural law. Jesus was dead moses parted the red sea. That violates what we know to be the laws of nature, which is fine. Vaccines arent a belief system. Some people with certain aspects of alternative medicine you need to believe. Maybe in some ways that is how it could work. More questions right here on our last among the gentleman in black on the aisle. I was wondering if you talk about scientology and their views on Mental Health in your book. You know, i say. Initially had two pages on scientology. I ended up taking it out because i did want to get sued. This is one litigious group. I had a lot of trouble not a church. I understand the federal government based on a sciencefiction book. I had trouble with that. Theres a wonderful piece of the book on last night on pbs. One again this week. Gentleman on the aisle. I wondered if you had many thoughts about your colleagues who might be complicit in this irrational response to disease and im thinking of the Clinical Trials on intercessory prayer, particularly the study which is multisite came up with negative results. It seems like thats an accommodation to the faithbased disease. The Templeton Foundation year funds a lot of those studies. They want to believe that there is evidence they are and the prayer and distance healing can make a difference. Certainly theres no good evidence. When you look throughout the Study Centers books on this, people who believe in this live longer. These studies have been done to find the result. Theres something calming about this. I was in the hospital a few years ago and the traveling came by and had surgery and asked me if he wanted me to pray for him. I said sure because i didnt want to hurt his feelings because you were so energetic and his nasty. It was all very common. Do i think that makes a difference . Sure. Stress mediators, specific proteins can be defined. That can affect Blood Pressure immune response. This womans question earlier about alternative medicine there is a physiology to the placebo response and those that try to understand that. A caveat is believe, but just dont get a fatal disease. The caveat is this. You can pray that gave the animatics. Im not saying dont pray. The line from galloway was say i dont think the same god who intended us to forgo use. [laughter] gentleman in the middle. There is a fellow on the i o. If you could get that. So i have a nephew mostly to get them into a private school, but he still get confused with all of that law school. He is very dear to me. He was five at the time and he told me one day he said uncle mike it would be really awesome if i died because i would have so much fun in heaven and i would get to see grandpa again. I was shocked. I was terrified for him. And i tried i was very much caught off guard. I said hey buddy, we dont want to do that. You want to spend as much time with people here who love you. I would be so sad. I was heavyhanded, but i could do myself pulling my punches because the you dont want to offend religion. There is still that instinct. So i guess i am curious how you mightve handled a conversation with the 5yearold as well as with the mental and how you mightve handled the situation. Ray. I am a theology is so im exactly the person you want to ask that question. Ill just give you my common sense. Ive no problem with people believing there is an afterlife or they will find their grandfather in the afterlife. I dont want them crashing into the World Trade Center as a way to get there. Dont do anything harmful. That is all. I came around on this book. I came to find myself embracing certain aspects of religion. Theres a lot of good stories than they are. A woman who sets out in front of my office, you know, reads the bible every day. She takes tremendous strength from that. I think that is all gray. The point for me in this book is dont do harm. We shouldnt allow the harm to occur in the name of religion because im trying to make a case that its not religious. Fellow at the microphone on my last. I was wondering if you have any in sight either state of mississippi, which i dont think any of us think of as the most liberal or advanced state in the union is the only state that has no that has no prohibition against vaccinations for religious or philosophical grounds. Interestingly there are two states in the United States the United States but on a philosophical or religious exemption. Not you may not have pics. The vaccination rate in mississippi for children two to three years of age is 99. 7 which is remarkable because of the state not all that great. Her vaccines they are great. In a more rational world we would not have nonmedical exemptions because it doesnt make sense. I would argue i wrote an oped piece in the New York Times published a few weeks ago. Their title was what would jesus do about measles. The matthew quote that i gave was that mac which caused a number of people i knew from college to email me and say when do you quote scripture which was a fair question. The point of view about was this isnt a religious act and it really shouldnt be allowed. I feel the same way about philosophical exemption. Where is the wisdom that says it better to not get a vaccine and get one. Its not a belief system as we said before. I dont really want to get these vaccines. Im not scared of these. I just listened to Jenna Mccarthy and she had her clothes on and so i trust her. Call that because that is really what it is. Sorry about the Jenny Mccarthy remark. Shes actually might go to person for help or advice. [laughter] and back here. One of the major issues if you can really truly believe when you die you will go to a wonderful play, then what is the definition of harm . That is one of the things ive been wondering. If you truly believe you are better off than a thousand Different Things if i do this or that or fly a plane into a building all be better off how can you then the issue is how do you explain that to people who are true believers that there are such things as harm versus not harm . You know it is so hard because you could reasonably argue that its all a delusion. Wheres the evidence for the existence of god or that jesus was the son of god. Where is the evidence he was resurrected and sat on the right hand of god. Where is the evidence . So you know, how we handle that in this country is that we say it is a good thing and unfortunately we dated a good thing way up to the point of it being a really bad name. So how you draw that line is really hard and i dont have any of her. Im taking what i think is the simplest thing. I wrote a chapter on abortion and the chapter is called dialogue of the. Neither side ever hears what the other side is saying. Its hard to ignore the fact that when an egg is fertilized, that it now has human dna can perfectly capable of growing up to be an 80 year old happy healthy contributing and being. There is no denying that. The question becomes what extent you value the life of the mother versus the potential life of the unborn. I dont know the answer to that. I basically took the easy way out, that when a womans life is in danger, once the choice of saving one life or not you save one. Amazingly the Catholic Church hasnt been perfect on this. And that is so clearly wrong. As examples of the case in phoenix. The most famous case in ireland to change the law when a woman died because she was not given an abortion had an affection and. The only way to treat our source control, to get the dying fetus out with all the around it. To change the law. They waited until the fetus heart. Speeding before they did and it was too late. So i guess i take the easy way out. Although im prochoice i really struggled with that because you cant deny it. A bunch of questions on our left. I had a question about where you would draw the line between child abuse and neglect on one hand and a parents right to have autonomy over their childrens medical decisionmaking on the other hand. A lot of the cases you talk about which are horrific or very clearcut. What happens when we slide into a less clearcut area where a parent doesnt want to get medicated for adhd or Something Like that. Where is it a states rights right to step in and say you must make a decision on behalf of your child . Wheres the line supposed to be drawn . I think i took the easy way out of this book which is antibiotics from antiseizure medicines for epilepsy, and one for diabetes bronchodilators far as mud. Theres probably one to five deaths a year from religiously based one to five. Not everybody dies or not. Theres probably a lot of suffering underneath the tip. That is where i draw the line. I understand your point. A number of people have made the point. It struck me rand paul said something with the most reasonable epidemic. The government doesnt own your children. Parents on your children. No matter how you were growing up, your parent know you. They had some responsibility and if they neglect the ability by letting you die needlessly or suffer needlessly, they may lose you. I think that is fair. The legal term is father of the country. The state does have a right to step in if they think children are being treated horribly. Right now there are two major faith Healing Choice is in the defect you know. Those children wont be treated with antibiotics. We know that. We wait and wait for something horrible to happen and then with analyzed that they are just the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Another question in the middle. So as a Health Care Provider focused on a reduction on your first out in the conversation what is the most productive way to go about dealing with people and a strongly held belief . Nothing. That is why as a legislative fix. But read this one recently did this she went to oregon and she change the law. It has something called the followers of christ church. It became clear when they explained to this group if you are found to have medically neglected your child to the point that they suffer, you will loose your children go to jail. They changed and now they go to doctors. Some of them went to idaho for the rules are strictly bare. Many events in oregon and change them. It doesnt happen in canada primarily because you know you are going to lose these. People love your children. They dont want to lose them. It alleges it is shakespeare i dont think reason works here. No matter how compassionate and passionately it is explained, i just dont think it works. In the center here. My question will follow on that. If i were believing christian i would be much more open to arguments from a christian and as their been a secular person. Having said that, have you encountered any pastors who consider part of their ministry to recruit people away from these dangerous acts . You know, when the oped price came out, what did jesus do about measles, i got a lot of emails is that i really do. I think that is right. Aspirations we should stand up for these children. We are having a colloquium june 30th where we are going to get these clerics in a room and try and hammer out a statement that says just that. We are trying to make a difference but at least well start the discussion. Legislators go better if they didnt see themselves as protecting religion. Right now the folks on idaho. Go to the cemetery idaho and it looks like it was transported from the 17th century into the 21st century. You know what we know about when we see children dying it is the tip of the ice berg because they are insular communities. We often dont know what is going on. In the back right here. How far do you want the legislation to go . How far do you want the legislation to go . What go . Whats he wanted want it to say . Do you think you should stop religious where you really draw the line . I dont want religious people speaking for me and i consider met alpha christian. I dont think they are representing well. What i want is the removal in all 50 states of what is called a religious exemption to child abuse and neglect. I think the child abuse is not religious and therefore should be eliminated. Lets go back to where we were before 1977. [applause] weve got time for a handful more questions. California just recently changed its law with respect to the religious the socalled religious exemption. Governor brown decided to make it broader, not narrower despite all the publicity of measles vaccines themselves were. People claim religious exemption based on what they read on the internet, based on an oval evidence. I find it shocking and part of my question is why is there a lack of respect for medicine for what medicine has found to be evidence that is piled up so substantially on the other side. Why are people claiming religion . Not the faith they faithbased staff, that the internet stuff where people believe for no good reason is something averse to the evidence. In california richard pan is a democrat there that introduce tried to make an overturned philosophical exemptions. You are right. Governor brown scaled that back to the legislation. I think regarding vaccines, it is not hard to understand why people push back. We ask citizens in the country to protect against their children against 14 different diseases in the first years of life which can be as many as 26 inoculations and his five shots at one time to prevent diseases most people dont need using biological fluids most people dont unders in. People are looking for reasons not to give vaccines. You can find those reasons on the internet. Apparently you are allowed to lie on the internet. Us on a radio show the other day and someone was lying to me. It was just dead wrong. He said that i read it on the internet. While this has got to be true. It is interesting i think vaccines are unique in the sense. They have to be held to a high standard. Some people think why should i get a polio vaccine. There hasnt been polio since 1979. Why do i have to give my child a shot . There was a pbs thing called the vaccine more as which is on a couple nights ago on pbs and had a woman whose dad why should i get a polio vaccine . The answer is because polio still exists in the world. Pakistan afghanistan, theres 20 other countries that occasionally experience polio appeared only wanted 200 people who have polio will actually have paralysis. The rest had asymptomatic disease. Thats why it was so hard to control because quarantine didnt work because 199 of the 200 people infected were fine. Did the people a symptomatically shedding polio walk into Laguardia Airport every year . Yes. If you have enoughs people polio can come back. Measles is the canary in the coal mine for vaccine because its an excellent vaccine. It is a highly contagious disease. Whenever there is an erosion, and measles is the first one to come back. This is the warning shot. I hope we will pay attention. Youre on the right. Yes, you begin your presentation by asking this question of how can parents make this choice that endangers their children and maybe as we are the need to wait use that in the questions, i am thinking about the nature of the leaf is self. That is people can say i believe in x or i dont believe, but most of us are in a state between those two where our life is an experiment to enrich that believe and aspire to that belief. Now it seems to me that one of the pitfalls of the people who deny their children the right to have a vaccine or a blood transfusion is that when the situation arise as in the child is lifted and they may regard this as my chance to prove to god that i am in fact a believer, even if it costs my child is life. And i wonder if some of these people need some counseling to address himself, is this the same that you want to prove something to yourself, are you willing to use your child for that purpose . I think it is very side of what can happen what it would answer your question. We try and third reason is a mechanism. Although i was database. If you talk to people and this is the hardest question to ask when i talk about how could you choose not to treat your child knowing this . They always said the same thing. I was praying as hard as they could. That was in their mine treatment. I dont know how you reason away from that other than to not allow it. Time for a few more questions. One in the front row right here and then there is a lady in the back in the middle there. I cant stop thinking about the example you gave earlier that if your first child dies, the parents go on and raise the rest of their children. If their second child dies, they go to jail. I cant quite understand how they arrived at that decision. Im wondering if that is an example of what you said between eight and delusion. If it happens once its faith, but if it happens twice as delusion. Lawmakers are deluded or the parents . I dont understand the rationale for that. It was just such a bizarre decision to make to accept the death of one child, but the second one to decide those people were criminals. Look at what has happened with this ritual. So the morrill chooses to use his mouth to clean off to up the blood. In new york city, in brooklyn and lakewood, new jersey, there are thousands and thousands of these procedures performed every year. What did new york city do . You have two you have to have an educational pamphlet about the fact that simplex virus can be transmitted from the mouth even if he washed with the serene. I think that was the staff although i would argue any better. What happened now he said he dont have to sign a consent form and get the many educational material. If you are a morrill who were shown to transmitted simplex virus to a child, you are not allowed to do another similar procedure again. The first child is free. Time for one last question. Right back here. I recently saw a documentary and ontology to focus on having a good life together and the boy was a very disturbed child. I dont know about other religions. We dont know what goes on. But they have a systematic system of indoctrination in scientology and the phone with a member of the church for many years. When her son became as paranoid schizophrenic, she exercised the utmost patient but she would die when taken a psychiatric meds and he stabbed her to death in a violent, repetitive way. So it just shows you that is a sad thing. The woman became so immersed in her religion that she couldnt exercise any comment at that point. Her life is obviously being threatened and it got out of control. One thing in terms of how people can be indoctrinated as that this all happened at penn state, hershey medical center. The person with less than 18 years of age who had severe anemia and needs a blood transfusion. The jehovahs witnesses. You can get a court order, which is half that. About 17 years old. Four years later she came back and wanted to talk to medical students. Wanted to talk to an ethics class and she got up in front of them. She was now married, 21 years old, well spoken, attractive and to im alive because my doctors treatment of blood transfusion but i know no eternal life will be mine so i would have much rather you not given me the blood transfusion. That is just the power of belief. In there we closed. Thank you for coming this evening. Thank you to dr. Paul offit. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] heres the list of books being published this week. Booktv continues now with after words. Cornel west explores Martin Luther king, jr. s radical political thinking, a sight of the late civil rights leader that the author argues has been diminished and sanitize. Cornel west speaks with khalil mohammed, director of the Schomburg Center for research in black culture. Host dr. West, it is a real delight to have you on this show. I am grateful myself for being invited to have an occasion to interview you about this new edited volume on dr. King the radical king Martin Luther