Collaboration and survival in nazi germany. Professor, where did the writing of art in the third right come from. Guest this book project is the completion of a trilogy and the idea began about 30 years ago when i was a graduate student. I was at harvard university, i went to the school to study french history. My first professor said you are going to specialize in this narrow topic on dissertation soon enough so i want you to write a Research Paper on a different topic, different country, different era. So i had been sitting in german as an undergraduate and i had a knowledge of german. I was interested in world war ii, my father was born in 1930 and and i grew up with stories about the war, the hunger and such that world war ii also always seemed essential. And i was interested in cultural history. My undergraduate thesis had been on the role of the arts and the black civil rights movement. And i thought something german, world war ii in cultural, and i came up on the topic of the Art Collections of the nazi leaders. I was surprised that these individuals are devoted so much time to cultural matters. I wrote a seminar paper on this topic and the professor said, you know you could actually write a doctoral dissertation on this on art collecting in when a professor says that, you take notice. I thought about it and realized that i was tremendously interested in this topic. There was a philosophical question at play. This nexus of culture and barbarism. Again how could these incredibly benevolent people do what so much time to culture and also practical issue that even though there was journalistic treatment there is no scholarly academic treatment. I started started as a scholar of art plundering in my work has evolved in the third year since then. Host it is well know that the were plundering art from european capitals. But thats not the taken yearbook, is it . Guest know its been a journey. The first book was about the Art Collection of the nazi leaders and also their interest in making cultural policy, how not just hitler, but all all these nazi leaders wanted to get involved with museum policy and regulation of the art trade, films and all of that. The second book was about the handson art plunders, how arts art experts, museum directors, art dealers, and historians became complicit in the criminal looting process. That book was called people like myself who are professionals who made this ethical compromise and became handson perpetrators. So artists under hitler complete the trilogy. So now im looking at the cultural figures themselves. Artist under hitler tries to do two things in particular, the first is to be a cultural history of nazi germany, thats not an oxymoron. There was a great deal was a great deal of culture in the third right. This is supposed to be an inclusive, synthetic culture history that i look at the representative of official culture such as the architect, the sculpture, the filmmaker, but they also look at modernist artist you stayed in nazi germany. Usually their story is not included in the history of culture in the third right. Here im thinking of painters like know the, sculptors and composers, architects, an array of other cultural figures who try to stay in nazi germany and collaborate with regime. So i bring bring that history into the story. The modernist. Host you open the book with a quote. What is that quote. Guest i have to look at it. His wording is very interesting, wells was a poet among other things and he says when i visited france and italy after the war i was full of that righteous antifascist feeling that we all had in the safety of america. I did not want to meet the people who had if not exactly collaborated, certainly had had not fought the nazis. I was too prissy. Then i say began to learn more and what it was like and compare it to us, the people who were in a different situation than the people who were defending their swimming pools in their contracts at metro. He goes goes on and hes talking about those figures, people who he knew who stated nazi germany and tried to find a place in their rank. Host what was it like to be an artist if you are known artist prior to 1931, what was it like to be an artist after that. Guest it had a good deal on ethnic background. If one was jewish theyre going to have difficulty after january 30 through when the nazis came to power. Most jewish cultural figures. [inaudible] and they realize there is no place for them in hitlers germany. That the most remarkable cultural immigration, the exodus of culture figures in the early 1930s was so notable and we in america it benefited especially in Southern California when there was a Great Community and the Hollywood Community but if one was not jewish, and you thought your work would fit into the nazi regime, they would try to find acceptance. [inaudible] none of. They wanted to stay and work in their homeland. Whether it was because they had endured three years of the great depression, Economic Economic hardship and they saw 1933 in an opportunity to work, the nazis were their public spending spending and public works invested a great deal of money and culture in the arts. Theyre great patrons, so suddenly there are opportunities to design, compose, build and what have you, was very tempted for these people who had seen the lean years of 1930 to 1933. They thought now is an opportunity to work again. Most of these these figures thought of themselves as quintessentially german. They were trying to create an art for a new and their patriotic, nationalistic and they felt at home in this country even though it had been taken over by the nazis. Mostly these modernist had huge egos. They believed with their talent they could work for anyone. They could design design for everyone. That was certainly the case with many, vander rose would say i wouldve built for the devil if he had commissioned me. He just wanted to work. So it was was for hitler and the nazis, so be it. They thought with their genius, surely they would find acceptance with this new regime. Was there censorship of their work . Guest absolutely. For modernist artist. Host what is modern, what you mean by that . Guest it is a loose, expansive definition. It means those figures who embrace the modern movement of the early 20th century which is clued expressionism, literature and writing, maybe new objectivity in design, it means streamlined, lack of ornamentation, rejection of historicism designing an oldfashioned style like gothic architecture. So you can put pages and pages into finding modernism. And sometimes inclined to use the wording of Supreme CourtJustice Potter stewart, pornography. He he recognizes it when he seizes it and thats the same case here you know when it has a modern feel to it. It it can be a tonality or dissidence, with art, j goodness, there is a certain vibe, certain feel that when with modernism. It was difficult for culture figures who design these, primarily because hitler detested modern art. Hitler himself had been an artist, we can save say it failed unsuccessful artist, he was not admitted to the academy where he applied twice, he had very meager earnings before world war i, but he thought of himself as an artist, as someone qualified to make arts policy and he had very strong feelings about art. In certain spheres, art and culture, diplomacy and war he was a strong dictator, very assertive so initially he held back a little bit in the cultural sphere and he led the debate about expressionism play out. Some of the leaders liked expression, the youth minister, they looked at this modern expression a start and thought it could fit into nazi germany. There is an area of german accomplishment that germans have been in the forefront and they had thought lets promote this because its an area where we excel. Hitler had strong personal feelings and in 1937 he made his personal feelings policy and he bans modern arts, especially our that was not true to nature and he ordered the creation of the degenerate art exhibition. This is a massive undertaking involving the pert merging of 21000 from german museums and state collections. And then they creation of propaganda exhibition that opened in munich and then traveled around. So officially, modernism, modern art was prescribed and banned. What i find interesting is that there is still these private spaces for the modernist. There is a private life of modernism in the third right. That. That has not been recognized by scholars until now. That many of these artists they not only continue to work, they had some of the most Productive Work years of their entire career. Sometimes like beckman, the great german painter, he left nazi germany in july 1937, he went to the another lens and was living ins amsterdam. But then german had overrun another lens and then he was surrounded by nazis again. The germans in amsterdam during the war allowed him to work and procure campuses in Painting Supplies and then in the answered in years they produced over 700 canvases. A lot of paintings. Yes, he was persecuted and suffered hardship and was threatened. He had interactions with resistance figures now is dangerous, but for him it was an incredibly exciting atmosphere. He worked like mad. He had the most productive period of his whole career during the year war. People recognize that modern artists continue to work. That our dealers can tune you to sell modern art work all the way up to 1945. Even though hitler officially banned modern art and behind the scenes you could buy these modern works in the artist could continue to make a living. Our trades continued the same. Host in your book you talk about Pablo Picasso in paris, what is that story. Guest picasso represents the great myth about culture and the nazi occupied europe. The myth is is that all modern artists were anti nazi and they were persecuted by the nazis and they suffered tremendous hardship and difficulty. Only after 1945 did they recover their lives, recover their work and move on. The way they presented their experience, their victims. The nazis ban them, gives them a hard time and sometimes they claim nazis would come to their studios and smell their brushes to see if they were working, to see of the if the smell of oil paints was on the brushes there. The reality was very different, that most most modern artists were able to continue their work and they had free spaces to do their work. Picasso later admitted privately that he had a very productive war because people left him in peace in order to pay. Before hand he was a public figure, celebrity and it was hard to get work done because people is coming to his studio. But during the war he was very productive. Yes, some people would come visit him, some visit him, some germans interestingly enough. So we have the great german writer who was stationed in paris during the war and he came to see picasso and they talk about what it was like to be an artist during the war. Some other german officers came and inspected the studio. There is the story where one of them points to a sketch, his painting that protested the fascist national war and the officer said, did you do that to which picasso said no, you did the germans were responsible. But mostly, he was left in peace. He had a great deal of money in a Swiss Bank Account so he did not need to earn extra money. He had resources he claimed that he was not selling the works he was producing during the war and i am prepared to believe that. But works that he had made earlier, pre1940, they were for sale at our galleries in paris and in occupied france. So in occupied france. So one could buy and sell works by picasso so later after the war when he presents himself as a communist and antinazi, almost as a member of the resistance, its a very its very different from the reality of his war where he would go on just fine with the germans and was allowed to work. Host what happened to some of the socalled collaborators after the war did their reputation survive . For the modern artist, for the most part yes. Again, the could take refuge in the that modern artists were against the nazis and they could use that to their advantage. There was 11 group of french artists who had difficulty in this included andre and the sculptor, they had gone on a trip to germany during the war. Alberts had reached out to their french counterparts and had said come on the two were to look at the art of nazi germany. This cultural exchange. If you do so we will release a certain a certain number of french prisoners of war. That is how the other artists were delivered over to this propaganda spectacle. Im not sure, its not clear if it french pows were released. But it did do damage to the reputation of the french artists. There are viewed as collaborators. Recently i saw an exhibition critique in london and just last week and it raised this history where he had gone to germany during the war and portrayed him as a collaborator. So if you went to germany and you are seen as part of a propaganda spectacle, yes there was an effect on ones career. One lived quietly in france or the netherlands, or even germany itself and worked quietly and sold ones work through the art dealers who continued in this area, sold to collectors, one could continue after the war with very little difficulty. The modernist artist for the most part propagated missing the postwar period. Their accounts they furthered the mythology of the alienated modern artist during the third right. So for example they wrote memoirs after the war and devoted about ten pages to his career during the third right. Basically he portrayed himself as a victim, someone who had retreated to his studio in the north of germany, in a rural area in the town and he had painted watercolors, the on painted pictures as they called them. And he said because the gestapo was inspecting his painting for oil and he had been prohibited from making Oil Paintings he did these watercolors that was his story. In fact, he was he was never prohibited from painting with oils, he did have a ban on his profession. He was that supposed to be exhibiting publicly but he was allowed to create privately. He actually painted about two dozen Oil Paintings during the war. So the story that he did not painting oil is not true, its a lie. In fact his income during the war was appreciable. In 1940, have one document from the head of the gestapo, and we know he was reportedly making 90,000 marks this year, hows that possible, the average worker and nazi german makes 2500 a year. He was making hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars so how is this possible . So the reality is that he was doing just fine, thank you but he he was doing just fine, thank you but he portrayed himself as a victim would retreated to inter immigration. That was common for these modernist figures to create narratives and mythologies in to concealed the more incriminating material. I mean i was very struck by the designs and drawings of modernist euros like band row where theyre sketching swastikas into their designs. Because that both of them were submitting entries into nazi competitions where there is the first right skating bank, or a german work front facility, they were putting in their drawings little swastikas. To me it shows how much they wanted acceptance and an opportunity to work. Those swastika drawings were not published in the 1950s and 60s, its only now with generational change that were getting to these materials that raise these questions. Host here is the book, it is a jonathan who is the author and professor of european history. Artist under hitler, collaboration and survival of National Nazi germany, youre watching book to be on cspan2 from claire mounts college in claremont california. When i tune in on the weekends usually its authors share in their new releases. Watching nonfiction authors on book tv is the best television for serious readers. On cspan they can have a longer conversation delve into their subjects. Book tv weekends, they bring you author after author, after author. And they highlight the work of fascinating people. I love book tv and i am cspan fan. Heres a look at books being published this week. In broken but unbound, Texas Governor greg abbott discusses how getting paralyzed at the age of 26 helped him to overcome obstacles throughout his career. Pulitzer prize winning author of the upper empathetic princeton historian sean looks at legato terry is him in the politicians and the gala terry. Also also been released this week, mark lanskys exploration of paper and its changing role in the digital age. In the book, drive. Lawrence goldstone looks at the birth of the automobile through the innovators, marketers and and those who created the automobile industry. Jill lepore, investigates the life of jill gold, and eccentric who was believed to have been writing the longest book ever written after he died 1957 and mental hospital. They again to question whether the 9 million word manuscript was just a figment of his imagination. Look for these books and more a book tv. Host radio talkshow host says this book will make you squirm and think. The author is steve why a novel. Guest thought it was a good device to tell some Inconvenient Truths about a title from another famous book. But to do it in a way that they see more entertaining. Less confrontational. It may may cause people to take a look at what is happening to the culture from a different point of view. Host what are some Inconvenient Truth is. Guest unless we return to our constitutional form of governments in this generation, or must we see some form of moral and spiritual revival which we saw and the founding of a country and the great awakening that gave birth to liberty in our civilization in the first place, we we might be totally and irrevocably screwed. The course that we are currently on. So this book is humorous, although at times unsettling warning. Its like a road sign danger ahead turn back now. Host without giving away the ending, how does the and the various plot form. Guest the various plot is sort of a contemporary homage to the screwtape letters. Lorna farias was cast by hell with destroying the United States over a century ago. Now he is so confident that his plan has worked that he connects all of the dots, he names names and talks about philosophies, institutions, movement that they either started, corrupted, or coopted in order to accomplish the demise of the United States of the superpower. He is so confident that the plan has worked that he has written it all in his book in vivid detail. He connects he connects to every. Our inability to believe that to think that this is paranoia, conspiracy, this cant be right. That is how he will convince his master, the devil that we are done and his plan has actually worked. Host steve has appeared on cspan many times and if you list listening in iowa you probably recognize the voice from his radio talkshow. What prompted you to write a book . Guest i was in the shower getting ready to do pr for my last book, rules for patriots, and this book popped in my head. I think my best or worst ideas, the shower because its only place on earth where either am not talking to someone or myself want to start going off. So i was in the shower, this idea came to me. This book is dedicated to all the useful idiots out there, especially those of you who are unaware that we are using you all along. For you turned out to be the most useful idiots of them all, lloyd various. That was sort of the mustard seed that you talk about that the rest of the book came from. If you look through out the history of western civilization thered been great examples of using alter egos are characters to tell cultures that maybe if you put your name on it that they might be offended by it. I think one of the greatest examples utopia, which was a scathing review of the monarchy was happening in the culture at the time. Now they eventually did burn him at the stake. By writing it originally in the book utopia he escaped persecution originally got people to listen to his ideas. This is sort of a way to get around some of the Political Correctness and maybe some of the walls that we have built up in our culture between different ideological dividing lines or theological lines and to objectively look at what has become of us as a people and where we are going if we do not turn back. Host ben shapiro says that steve it days new book takes a look at how we face america. We are to you in early march here at cpac, if you are to write a story about this election season so far, what would you entitle it, what would you write . Guest it would be, instead of primary colors it would be paradigm shift. You are watching a massive paradigm shift happen in the american electorate. Whats happening is there is an existential revolt happening within the conservative movement within the Republican Party. Theres no question the Republican Party as it has been known, really sense George Herbert walker bush washed left the stage. One of these things is not life like the other, nixon, four, reagan, bush, dole, mccain, bush, the one that sticks out his reagan. Bush, the one that sticks out his reagan. The rest of the party has traditionally been this right of center, small p progressive, corporatist waning Political Party except for the era of reagan. Most of the conservative base is tired of it and fed up with it. The last rise really what is happened with romney loosening 2012 and then the Massive Gains republicans had in the 2014 midterms and there is literally nothing to show for it whatsoever. Thats why when we sit here in early march, two candidates, donald trump and ted cruz were dramatically different people. Donald trump is running on some form of white nationalism. He is running a dixie crack type of platform, thats not conservativism. Cruise is running on conservative sum that built america. But these two individuals person by the voters are the two most outside the mainstream are blowing with the field and a roughly in the delegate count at this point because they represent the biggest paradigm shift. The debate that we are going to have in the Republican Party now the rest of the way is one, should there even be a Republican Party and if there should be, which path, instead of corporatism which path should pursue. Should it pursue. Should it pursue what trump is advocating which is a return to white nationals, dixie crack sort of americanism . Or a truly conservative party that is trying to conserve the value that made this country exceptional in the first place . Radio talkshow host, and your most recent book. The various plot. Youre watching book to be on cspan2. Television for serious readers. Heres a look at what some prime time tonight. We can copy evening with former fda commissioner david kessler. He david kessler. He talks about the history of mental suffering. At 7 45 p. M. Former u. S. Assistant secretary of state argues that liberals have abandoned their core principle. At 8 45 p. M. Historian on the biography of entertainer paul robeson and the u. S. Relationship with haiti and the dominican republic. On afterwards, don watkins discusses income inequality. His book is, equal is unfair. Is unfair. We finish up our primetime programming at 11 00 p. M. With veteran who talks about roosevelts address. That happens tonight on cspan two, book tv. Untran first. Was first up is a look at mental