I would also like to thank a few people. From the u. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum whos the reason this program is here today, she arranged the speakers and had the idea for the program. Roberta schafer, associate librarian of congress. Beecher wiggins, our aba director, Audrey Fisher and the staff of the Public Affairs office, suvita who let us have the wonderful pavilion, and galena of the ij section. Also, of course, marvin kalb and our panelists, Martin Goldsmith and Diane Afoumado. I will be stepping aside as soon as i introduce mr. Be kalb, and he will take over the program. Marvin kalb spent 30 years as an awardwinning reporter for cbs news and nbc news. Hes written or coauthored 11 nonfiction books and two fiction books, and hes currently working on a new book, the soviet spring the rise and challenge of putins russia. Hes a nonresident senior fellow with the Foreign Policy programs at brookings and is a Senior Adviser to the Pulitzer Center on crisis reporting. He focuses on the impact of media and on Public Policies and politics and is an expert on National Security with a focus on u. S. Relations with russia, europe and the middle east. And it is with great pleasure i introduce marvin kalb. Thank you. [applause] thank you very much. And thank you all for coming to this program. Very quickly to set the stage, hitler came to power in germany this 1933 in 1933, and five years later in the fall of 1938 there was the crystal when the nazis decided to destroy as many jewish sin goings as they could in synagogues as they could in searchny, and the german jews got the message very quickly. Many of them had the message earlier, and they decided that it would be good to get out. And more than 900 of them managed to get on the st. Louis, and i notice the title here, voyage of the st. Louis. And, of course, that entire journey has been written about as the voyage of the damned. And that is probably an understatement. Because they never were able to land in cuba be, their destination. Had to go back and roughly i dont know the exact numbers twothirds of them somehow managed to survive world war ii. A third of them did not. So when they could not land in cuba, they went back to their deaths at different times and at different places. Were really privileged to have two people who know about this subject and will talk to us about it. One of them is Martin Goldsmith, to my left. Martin is the host and Classical Music programmer for Symphony Hall on siriusxm satellite radio, and he hosted nprs Performance Today from 19891999 hes the author of two books, the first the inextinguish bl similar to beny. And the second is alexs wake, which has to do with his grandfather and uncle who were two of the more than 900 on the st. Louis. Also joining us today, dr. Diane afoumado. She received her ph. D. In contemporary history from the university of paris. She had a fellowship at the Holocaust Museum. She has written extensively on this subject, and shes conducted research especially on the st. Louis odyssey through the eyes of captain schroeder who was the captain of the boat, the st. Louis. And i would like to ask dr. Afoumado to start first and then martin to pick it up after that. Please, doctor. [applause] thank you very much. First of all, i want to thank the organizer, thank you, gayle, for putting this program together, and thank you i want to really thank my colleague and dear friend for organizing this. So im going to present a powerpoint to you and try to summarize in 20 minutes the whole story of the st. Louis. So, please, if you have any question, i can talk more about this at the end. So first of all, i want to say a few words about the Jewish Population in germany just before world war ii. The Jewish Population in germany before the war was about 1 of the total population of germany. And as you know, you know, you mentioned this already, but as you know, the jewish refugees fled germany mostly, half of them mostly between 1938 and 1939 and especially after the evian conference, and you can see one of the photographs of the conference there on the powerpoint. The evian conference in july 1938 that, basically, tried to solve the problem of the refugee crisis but ended up being sort of a failure. And im going very fast here because, you know, there is a lot to say about the evian conference. But roughly in 1938 and 1939, there were not many options for the refugees and for the jews, and they could go mostly to shanghai and cuba. And you can imagine that when you were, when you were a jew there germany or austria, that was probably not your first choice, shanghai or cuba. But that was the only choice you basically had when you were thinking of massive immigration. Im not talking about individual immigration, no. Im talking about really a large number of people fleeing germany. So before i start really telling you the whole story, i want to say a few words about the company that owned the st. Louis boat. It was not the only company at that too many. In the 1930s there were many others. The Hamburg Company was german, but there were many other companies in france, Great Britain, the netherlands, and most of them actually carried jews onboard, jews who were trying to flee germ in 1938 and 1939. What im trying to say is the Hamburg Company was not the only one, and the refugee crisis really touched all those companies of cruise liners at the end of the 1930s. Hamburg was created in 1847, and it was mostly a commercial fleet that was destroyed during world war i and rebuilt afterwards and reached its gold been age in the golden age in the 1920s. So imagine, you know, this company that was really, that had a lot of boats, a lot of vessels, a lot of luxurious liners. And the st. Louis was one of the most luxurious boats at that time. What is interesting is that in order to immigrate to cuba in the 1930s at the end of the 1930s, you needed a lot of documents. Im not going to go through the whole list, but it was actually a lot of documentation that you had to gather in order to be able to enter the country, let alone, you know, buy the ticket on the boat. So this is an example of the immigration identification card of one of the st. Louis passengers. And, basically, most of the st. Louis passengers had what we call a landing permit. This is not a visa per se, and this is i mean, this is a good document, this is certainly a legal document, but this is not a visa. And, but just, you know, remember that term, landing permit, because thats what most of the passengers had. This is a photograph of some of the passengers boarding the st. Louis. And i really like this photograph because it, you know, gives me a chance to tell you more about the passengers themselves and the world that they are stepping in. Most of the passengers were families, so the oldest passenger on the st. Louis was born at the end of the 19th century in the 1980s, 1990s. And then the youngest one [inaudible] sorry, 1880s. Sorry, im not good at dates and numbers. [laughter] especially english is not my native speaker, so thank you for correcting me. So 1890s, 1880s, backward. And the youngest passenger was actually a baby born in january 1939. But what im trying to say is that we are not in, you know, illegal immigration here. This is a perfectly legal immigration, you know . Those people had legal documents to immigrate to cuba. So they were leaving germany with the whole family. And also what is interesting is that by boarding the st. Louis, theyre going to step into a world of luxury that they at no time have access to. I mean, even, you know, the wealthiest passengers on the st. Louis, they were basically, they belonged to most of the categories, social categories of the jews in germany and austria, but even the most wealthy passengers on the st. Louis didnt have access anymore to that kind of luxury because of the persecutions in germany. So when they board the st. Louis, this is basically what theyre going to see. I show that photograph on purpose because im, of course, there are many other locations on the boat that were actually photographed by the passengers, but this is really one of the most beautiful photographs of the dining room in the st. Louis. So just imagine a very luxurious vessel, one of the most beautiful of that fleet. Imagine the titanic but with the decoration of the 1930s, you know, just to make it short. And theyre going to have a lot of possibilities to try to enjoy the voyage, but you can imagine that its going to be difficult for them, so they need some time because they go from the persecution since 1933 to this kind of, you know, atmosphere by just boarding the boat. But after 24 hours, 48 hours for some of them, theyre going to try to relax and to enjoy as much as possible, you know, the pleasure of that journal incentive. Journey. I want to say a few words about the crew on the st. Louis and the captain. This is a photograph of the ship, the st. Louis, and you have to imagine that the crew is about 200 people. The captain of the boat, captain gustav schroeder, is a german who is very crowd of his country. I usually define him as a romantic german because he really is in love with germany. He really loves his country, and he hates the nazis, and he hates what the nazis are doing to germany. And he is the captain onboard. So he tells, you know, he gathers the crew just before the departure of the st. Louis to tell them them that onboard it t of question to persecute those passengers because they are jewish. So the nazi laws dont have any room onboard, i mean, you know, the crew will be at the service of the passengers like, you know, they would be at the service of any other passengers who would go on a cruise. This is not a cruise per se, but they would be at the service of the passengers on the st. Louis, so they will serve them like anyone else. And he also gives the crew members the choice to leave the boat if anyone disagrees with this, and no 40 one left. And no one left. So the whole crew is at the service of the passengers, and the passengers are going to be able to enjoy the facility on the boat including the menus, and this is one of the menus on the boat. And, you know, the menus were absolutely outstanding. They can also relax by, you know, dancing in the ballroom, you can see those people smiling and dancing and trying to do the best they can and to enjoy as much as possible that journey between hamburg and the avana. Some others would play shuffleboard on the deck of the st. Louis, but what is interesting in here is that we have documentation about most of the passengers, and two of my colleagues at the Holocaust Museum traced the fates of the passenger, each of them on the st. Louis, so we know exactly what happened to them. So here you can see werner lenneberg, but he was previously to that voyage arrested probably, most likely sent to dachau, and on that document which is a document from the International Tracing Service collection that we have at the museum, you can see his prisoner number on the top of this card. And this is, hes housed this dachau. So he was able to leave the camp on one condition, it was not to return to germany ever. So this is just to show you that all the categories of the passengers were on the st. Louis. There were also about 200 children on the st. Louis, and i specifically enjoy the photograph, i really like the photograph with the Swimming Pool be because that gives me a chance also to tell you what happened, you know, in germany. You know, during the 1930s the jews were not allowed in Swimming Pools in germany, so those children who are enjoying, swimming in that little Swimming Pool on the st. Louis, for the youngest ones, they probably didnt even know how to swim because they never had a chance to learn. So you can imagine that, you know, this is very important. And everything would be done onboard thanks to the captain and the crew to make the journey be, you know, as enjoyable as possible. So when they arrive in cuba on may 27, 1939, this slide actually gives me a chance to talk about the political crisis in cuba. The st. Louis, when the st. Louis arrives in cuba, they actually, the passengers kind of disembark. But no one tells them why they cant disembark. Because there is a political crisis in cuba, and also no one explains anything to them. But the political crisis is the following. So you probably dont know much about the president , the cuban president because you have absolutely no reason to know anything about him. But you probably, you know, heard about baa thies that. Maybe not in the 1930s, but baptiste that was already doing something. The landing permits that the passengers acquired were actually sold thanks to huge traffic of documents that was organized by the secretary of immigration, and he was supported by the president s men, opponent, political opponent, baptiste. So baptiste was trying to destabilize the president behind the scene through the secretary of immigration, and in order to establish his political power, the president wanted to put an end to immigration. So he decided to issue a degree just a few days before the st. Louis actually left hamburg. This is not against the st. Louis passengers. The president didnt even know anything about the st. Louis passengers. They were just immigrants or they were just, you know, legal passengers that would come to cuba. But he wants to put an end to immigration, so thats why he issued the decree. Facing that crisis, the American Jewish joint Distribution Committee decided to send one of its representatives in to negotiate with the cuban authorities. But nothing would happen, and even the captain of the st. Louis, gustav schroeder, would actually put on civilian clothes and try to negotiate with the cuban authorities as well, but nothing good come from this. So basically, the captain cannot do anything, but you can imagine that for the family members and for the friends of the st. Louis passengers who are already in cuba, its very difficult because they dont know anything, they dont know whats going on. They try to communicate with their families onboard. So they would hire little boats like this one, and they would try to go around the boat and try to communicate with their families and friends trying to bring them, you know, exotic fruits and try to give them some news about whats going on. This is also another photograph of those boats. Im going quickly because i want to move on to the next step of the st. Louis. So after a while, you know, the negotiations were probably over in cuba, but the captain, so the captain reffed orders to leave the waters received orders to leave the waters, but he decides to navigate between cuba and the United States. More than 700 passengers were actually registered on the list of immigration in the United States. That means that anytime, you know, it could be a question of days or hospitals or years or months or years. Their number would come up, so eventually their final destination would be the United States. So the captain brings the st. Louis in front of miami in the harbor of miami, and the passengers can see the light of miami and the palm trees. But there is, you know, for the United States, i mean p im going to give you a little, all of you of the general political context so you can understand why, you know, the United States did not let the passengers in. You have to understand that it would have been just, you know, 900plus people. So its not a big deal for the United States to welcome those people. But just imagine that if thecountries has opened the, you know the country had opened the doors to those people, thousands of hundreds would have been full of them because there were more and more immigrants and jewish refugees who tried to escape from germany and the reich. So, you know, by anticipating that situation, it would have opened the door to her massive immigration, and the government didnt want to do this. Plus, in the United States dont forget that there was the immigration act of 1924, and so the quota were the quota. So it was out of question to make an exception and to raise the number, to raise the quota to accept more ref due refugees. There was also a certain level of antisemitism among the population and also among the state department. And if you, when you read the correspondence between among the state department, you can realize they were very much afraid of welcoming more refugees and especially jewish refugees because they were associating them with communism. So, i mean, im just giving you several reasons, but there are much more. But, you know, i dont want to talk too much about this. So the st. Louis had to go back to germany technically. So between i mean, you can imagine on the way back that the atmosphere onboard is no longer the same. But on the way back, the jdc would ask its representative in europe based in paris to negotiate with some european countries. In that case it was belgium, france, Great Britain and holland. And its a very long and complicated negotiation that involved also representatives of the jewish communities in those four countries, and its basically a race against the clock and almost like a [inaudible] to have those countries agree on accepting more refugees. So to make a very long and complicated story short, especially those negotiations, eventually belgium, france, Great Britain and holland would accept the passengers, and they would dispersed almost equally among the four countries. But just imagine that from the moment that cuba refused them or, you know, refused the st. Louis passengers to disembark, they became Illegal Immigrants because they had legal documents to immigrate into cuba, so they would be in europe with, basically, illegal documents and they couldnt work. So without moving, without doing anything, their legal status changed, you know, just by the decision of cuba, and they would become Illegal Immigrants. So basically, they would become almost refugees. Not quite because refugees had legal status. And so i just want to give you one example. The st. Louis passengers ended up in those four countries except for those who actually went to england, Great Britain. The others became, you know, we are in june 1939, and the war almost, you know, the war is, you know, at the door. So for those who actually ended up in those three countries, france, belgium and hold land, they became hold land, they were in the same situation as all the refugees who found refuge in those three countries during the 1930s. So we can see, for example, here photographs, a very beautiful photograph on the boat, on the deck of the st. Louis and smiling. You can see her also here talking to some other passengers. And on the oh photograph on other photograph on your left, this was taken in france. It was like a home because, you know, you have to remember that those people were held by jewish organizations because they couldnt support themselves. So shes there, and shes almost safe since, you know, shes in france in her home. But france, you know, was occupied and was also, you know, had the vichy government who was very antisemitic. So they had to face not only the antisemitism of the germans, but also of the vichy government. So here we know that karliner after being on the st. Louis, going to cuba to miami and coming back to france, ended up arrested in november 1942, and her name is on that list. She was deported to auschwitz and perished in 1942 in auschwitz. Just two more slides to finish, and you can read the numbers. So 231 passengers of the st. Louis actually per riched during the holocaust perished during the holocaust. Those people could have been saved if they had disembarked in cuba. The st. Louis returned to germany after a seven month cruise and was totally destroyed in 1944 after being bombed by the royal air force, so the st. Louis no longer exists, but on paragraphs, postcards and leaflets. I want to just show you a picture of the captain of the boat, captain gustav schroeder, and you can see a photograph of his hat. We have the hat at the museum. You can imagine when i was a fellow at the museum, for everybody its like an artifact. For me its his hat. So just like looking at this photograph and looking at the hat, i dont even think of touching it because its very emotional for me. You know, just by looking at the hat, i can actually tell you the whole story of the st. Louis. I dont need any other slide or any other photograph. And this is the book he actually wrote, and this is a signed copy. And captain. Finish schroeder died in 1959, and he was awarded a medal by west germany in 1957, just two years before be he died, for helping the passengers of the st. Louis. And he was also posthumously honored as [inaudible] in 1993. And if you want to know more, you have a paper outside, i think, its on the table outside with some links and some books on the st. Louis. And these are two links that actually we have on the web site. The online exhibition of the st. Louis that two of my colleagues worked on. And my book, but its in french. Im sorry, but when i started, you know, i wrote this in french, and i still write in french. I try to write in english, but, so this is the book that tells the whole story of the st. Louis. Thank you. [applause] thank you very much, dr. Afoumado. That was a fascinating, fascinating report. Martin gold smipt, wed like to hear gold smipt, wed like to hear your report, please. Thanks so much, mr. Kalb. Thanks, dr. Afoumado. Thanks to the wonderful colleagues at the Holocaust Museum who were of such incredible help to me as i did my research for my book. Alas, i do not have a powerpoint to share with you. I could, i suppose, modestly suggest you go out into the lobby and get a copy of my book, alexs wake, because there are many wonderful photographs within the pages of the book. [laughter] very lowtech, i must say. One of the photographs im most pleased to have discovered with the help of the wonderful people at the Holocaust Museum, when after Morris Troper of the American Jewish joint Distribution Committee brokered the deal that enabled the refugees onboard the st. Louis to disembark in either england, france, belgium or holland, all the passengers onboard the st. Louis signed a note of appreciation to mr. Troper. And in the archives of the Holocaust Museum, i discovered a portion of that card which includes the signatures of my grandfather, alex, and my uncle helmut, and that is reproduced in the book. So, yes, Alex Goldsmith, my grandfather, and klaus helmut goldsmith, my uncle, were two of the more than 900 refugees onboard the st. Louis. And three years ago my wife whom im happy to say is standing at the back of our room today my wife and i retraced their steps beginning in the small, Lower Village where my grandfather alex was born in 1879, the seventh of eight children. He was the son and grandson of horse dealers. They came from a long line of people dealing in horse flesh, and they did very well for themselves. Trading horses and raising horses and selling horses was an occupation that was open to the jews of germany when so many of the professions were closeed to jews. But my grandfather, alex, did not want to go into the horse business. He instead went to the northwestern german city of oldenburg and opened a Womens Clothing store, the house of fashion where, apparently, all fashionable oldenburg women shopped for hats and shoes and accessories and so on. And when amy and i were on our journey of remembrance, we, of course, went there and met a, at the time, 93yearold woman named anna marie who knew my father and knew my fathers young l brother, my uncle helmut. She confessed to me that she had a crush on both of them. [laughter] and beamed at me the whole evening that we met. She said i looked so much like my father and like my uncle, and she said it makes me feel years younger to look at you. [laughter] and then she told a wonderful story about my grandfather. Again, he ran the [inaudible] and when anna marie was 8 or 10 years old, she went with her mother to buy an easter dress, and she found the perfect frock for the occasion, she said. And she asked her mother to buy it for her, and her mother took one look at the price tag and said, well, im afraid this dress is too expensive, and anna marie began to cry. And then the propry to have of the store my grandfather, Alex Goldsmith and said, whats the matter . Arent you the little girl who knows my sons and who plays marbles with them . What is wrong . Anna marie says, well, i found this wonderful easter dress, but my mother says its too expensive. And at that my grandfather looked at the price tag and said, oh, theres been some mistake. One of my employees marked down the wrong price. Here is the correct price. And named a much lower price. Just like that, anna marie got the dress that she wanted. She told this story in german to amy and me and my hosts were translating the story. But then anna marie stopped and in english said to me, that is exactly the kind of hand your grandfather was. Kind of man your grandfather was. Which was a lovely story for me to learn about. I also learned a little bit about my be uncle, helmut, who was a studious young man. Not a great student, but a good one. A very poor athlete for which he was taken to task by the gym teacher of the school in oldenburg who was a vigorous member of the nazi party and gave my uncle a good deal of trouble for his lack of athletic ability. But if my uncle was not so good at running and jumping, he had a good deal of what i, well, i quote j. D. Salinger at one point and refer to my uncles hes tick lairty [laughter] hes tick lairty, which he demonstrated in the autumn of 1939. A member of the nazi party came and was an honored speaker to the students and the faculty of the school, and he began speaking about the jewish men nation, how the jews were controlling finance and how they were controlling the media and how they were coming after our, the flower of german womanhood and on and on and on. And at one point in the middle of this schoolwide assembly, my uncle, age 17, stood up and shouted [speaking german] these are all lies. At that point, he turned and strode out of the assembly room. The principal of the school went after him, grabbed him by the arm, dragged him up on stage, slapped him in full view of all of the assembled, and within days my uncle was kicked out of the school. But one other thing that i was very pleased to discover in oldenburg, a little note that my grandmother, toni barons, sent to the school shortly a hi uncle was my uncle was evicted from that assembly. Her note was, essentially, one line saying you cant kick my son out of school, he quits. [laughter] its the only note that i have in my grandmothers hand writing, and as you might imagine, im very proud of her as well. Well, on november 9th, 1938 which mr. Kalb has mentioned my grandfather, alex, was arrested. The morning after he and 42 other adult male jews of the city of old toenburg oldenburg were paraded through the town past the stillsmoldering remains of the synagogue. They were sent to the prison in oldenburg, and then the next day again paraded through town to the train station where they were sent to the concentration camps. My grandfather spent the next five weeks there, was then released in early december of 1938, told he had six months to leave the country or else face further arrest. So that was when he book bed passage booked passage, along with his son, booked passage on the st. Louis which is how they became two of the more than 900 refugees onboard. When they made it back to europe, they disembarked in france, no doubt at least very, very pleased that they were not back in germany. But, of course, that is when their troubles began. And as i say, three years ago my wife and i decided to follow in their footsteps, and if i may just quote a few lines from the first part of the book, the first chapter. I said that i discovered with the help of the museum, the Holocaust Museum, i learned their itinerary. And the list of all of the towns they spent in those three years of captivity. That list of names became as familiar to me as my own address and telephone number. And late one night it came to me what i must do, i knew that i needed to retrace their steps to step foot on the earth of what they trod to breathe the air they breathed before they breathed their last. I would tell the story as a grandson, a nephew and an eyewitness. And i write that i packed along with our luggage and my, the remains of my father who had died a few years earlier and i decided to sprinkle his ashes in the park next to the house where he grew up because he loved it so much, but i packed the fervent hope that in the coming six weeks i might learn much about the ordeal of my grandfather and uncle and also find a way to set down my familys longborne burden to turn into the calm and peaceful waters of my living family, my friends and my life. So as i say, my wife and i began our journey where my grandfather was born. We went to old toenburg oldenburg, we traveled to hamburg where the st. Louis sailed from where we also paid tribute to some of our musical heroes, the beatles [laughter] who honed their craft over two years between 1960 ask 196 and 1962 in hamburg and also to Johanns Brahms who was born in hamburg. We met up metaphorically with alex and hell muth when they landed hell mutt when they landed in northern france. We did some research at the National Library there in who loan ya, and as i write, i was very pleased that for the First Time Since my eighth grade french class, i actually found a use for the phrase [speaking french] [laughter] it was very bratfying to see gratifying to see that after all those years, that phrase stuck with me. So we found out a bit of what happened. They then were dispatched to what was called the agricultural retraining center at a very small village in the northeastern part of france. It had been a spa town for many years because of the healing waters, and some of the jewish refugee organizations in france had set up this agricultural reeducation center. And for two idyllic months in july and august of 1939, my grandfather and uncle learned how to raise sheep and to raise chickens. But then came september 1, 1939, the outbreak of the second world war. And my grandfather and uncle met more thosed in the eyes of the french from refugees to enemy aliens since they now were, since they still carried german passports and germany and france were now at war. They then were sent to a camp, from there to month l ban where they were held this an old cookie factory for a month before they were sent to a refugee camp which had been set up for the victims, some of the victims of the spanish civil war but then became a holding camp for what the french called the undesirables of france. As of the 20th as of the third day of october, 1940, more or less an echo of the nuremberg laws was passed. The vichy government passed it, again, depriving the vews of their jews of their civil rights, making it impossible for jews to hold many professions, saying they had to have yellow signs in their business windows identifying them as jewishrun bits. Businesses. So they were sent from there to the camp in the pyrenees where they spent six months. From there they were sent to a camp where they spent a bit be more than a year, and they too then were sent to auschwitz where my grandfather, age 63, was immediately gassed. He was deemed too old to be of any use to the german war machine. My uncle was 21 years old at the time. He was tattooed with the number 59305, sent to barracks number seven in auschwitz. He then was transferred to barracks number 20 where he died on october the 9th, 1942, officially of typhus but very possibly of a lethal injection straight to the heart. So my book, alexs wake, tells the story of these two journeys 70 years apart, the journey of my grandfather and uncle onboard the st. Louis and of my wifes and my journey following in their footsteps more than 70 years later. Its been a great pleasure to speak with you today, thanks so much. [applause] thank you. Thank you both very much for two fascinating reports. I have, as you can imagine, several questions that id like to pop to both of you before we go to the audience, and youre invited very much to ask questions as well. Mine id like to start with martin and then go to dr. Afoumado. Martin, if you could come up. You mentioned in your book or probably i would not have thought of it before, but you mentioned something that a number of jews who survived the holocaust talk about and think about a great deal. Whether they share that information with their children or not. And your father chose for a long period of time to put some distance between himself and you and the experience of the holocaust. And so theres sort of two sides of the same question. How did you feel when you found out about it . That you were being denied something . What was your gut dealing then about your fathers judgment on that issue . Please. Yes. Its apparently not uncommon for people of my generation, the second generation, the children of survivors of the holocaust, it is not uncommon to grow up in an atmosphere of secrets and a lack of information. In the first book i wrote about my parents and their experiences playing in an alljewish orchestra in nazi germany between 1935 and 1941, i describe it as borrowing from, of all people, wagner his image of the second act of an opera which takes place in the house of [inaudible] it has a tree growing up through the floor and up through the roof, this immense presence. And i compare it, the silence in our house, to this immense tree. The fate of my parents family, they all perished during the holocaust, was something we didnt talk about. My brother once asked my father why dont we have uncles and aunts and like all of our friends do, and my father answered very shortly, they died in the war not wanting to go any deeper than that. He obviously felt a great deal of guilt and shame which he did pass on to me and to my brother which i describe as then the metaphor of traveling in alexs wake, the fact that for so long this idea that my father be had not done everything he possibly could have to save his father and uncle was a great burden on him. He passed it on to me, and that was when i did find out more of the details, i write in the book that i could simultaneously feel great deal of anger at my father be for not having done everything he possibly could even though he and my mother were brand new refugees to this country and had very few resources. So i was simultaneously angry with him but also full of pity as well because he had so little that he probably could have done and was saddled with this horrible feeling of guilt for the rest of his life. Thank you very much. And dr. Afoumado, my question for you goes back to that moment when the st. Louis, after six days in the harbor in cuba, havana, found that they could not get into cuba, and so they tried the u. S. And you gave a couple of very good reasons why the United States turned the st. Louis away. But im still left with this question. Actually, two questions. The first is the secretary of the treasury was morgenthau who was an unafraid, unashamed, unabashed jew. He spoke on behalf of a lot of jewish causes. He wanted to speak to president roosevelt time and time again about the jewish problem. And i dont quite understand his role in all of this. He sent two coast guard vessels to look after the st. Louis. Captain schroeder, i believe, said at one point that he was thinking of grounding the st. Louis so that the people i dont know if thats right but thinking of grounding the st. Louis so that these people could get off the boat in the u. S. Was morgenthau protecting the boat, recollecting his rep protecting his reputation, protecting the president . Why didnt he do more . That is the question i ask from the Vantage Point of 2014. I didnt live with him at that time. Please. Well, actually there are many things that you can read online or that you can read this some articles that are not totally true about the st. Louis, and the story of the coast guard, i mean, there is very Little Information about this and, basically, nothing in the archives. Its based on testimonies, but we dont identify never found any trace of anything like this in the archives. So its actually something that needs to be researched a little bit further. And as for the role of morgenthau, its, you know, when it comes to the st. Louis, usually i dont get the question about him, but i get the question about roosevelt. [laughter] but [inaudible] okay. [laughter] its hard to imagine that just one person can make the difference. I mean, you know, in that case even if im going to talk about roosevelt first and then answer your question. But, you know, roosevelt was solely seep as the most powerful seen as the most awful person in the world. But, you know, this is the american government, and we cannot do anything without congress. The approval of congress. You cannot change the law. You know, the state department was very, very reluctant to welcoming more refugees, and so it was not his decision only. Its the same thing with anybody in the government, and morgenthau is one of them. He could advise the president , he could say something, he could put some weight on this, but at the end of the day, i mean, that would have been opening the doors again to more and more refugees. So its not only about humanitarian, were talking about the st. Louis from the perspective of the passengers here and from the perspective of humanitarian cause. If you go, if you look at the story from the government perspective, humanitarian cause is not really what moves governments usually. I mean, this is not, i mean, this is terrible to say, but, you know, humanitarian reasons dont usually weight more than anything else. So this is one of the reasons. As for i forgot the other one. [laughter] it was morgenthau. Okay, so i answered. Let me pick that up as well and ask both of you this question supposing and i know its hard to imagine, but supposing something similar were to happen today, would there have been the same result, do you think . Martin . Well, the fact is, as diane mentioned or referred to, there was a certain strain of antisemitism in this country in 1938. I quote a roper poll from that era which indicates that more than 50 , 53 of the American People who responded to this poll declared that jews were not like the rest of us and that they, it was important that they be restricted in their Business Practices and their social practices. Only 39 of people responding to this roper poll said the jews were like everybody else and should be treated the same. A full 10 of the people responding to this poll said that all jews should be deported from the United States. So, and we really need to remember that this was the era of restricted hotels, restricted country clubs. This was a fairly antisemitic country in 1938. If something similar were to happen today, i do not certainly see that that same level of antisemitism, you know, in existence today, so i dont see anything along those lines happening. Now, if it were a boat filled with people from other lands given the antiimmigration stance of many elected officials and many citizens in this country, its a little hard to, for me to know exactly what the answer would be. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Afoumado . Id like to have your view, your sense of what would happen if this were to happen today and to go back to something you were saying earlier as a sort of not justification, but explanation of why it is that what happened happened. Do you feel that governments what have we learned in the last 75 years . As a matter of fact, if you go back to the st. Louis and you try to think about today and you take what im struggling for here, humanitarian issues. Should they not be more central to the construction of our Foreign Policy . It seemed to me that in the last two or three decades there have been efforts on the part of the u. S. Government to take into account a humanitarian need and not to stick to the law as literally and rigidly as we have. So the same yep same question to you. What would be your sense now if something similar were to have occurred . Well, im not trying to avoid this, but im a historian, so im not a political scientist or political adviser, but i think what we have now that, you know, they didnt have back then is a more, a clearer definition of refugees, of legal immigrants, Illegal Immigrants. So we have something that, you know, is supposed to protect those people because they are part of different categories. And if you look at today, i mean, the world of today is really a world of globalization, so, you know, there is more prevention, there is more also attempt to understand whats going on ahead of time, you know, in terms of humanitarian response to refugee crisis. So before, you know, we reach that point of basically no return before, you know, you see people just boarding boats and trying to, you know, go wherever they can, more and her, you know, prevention more and more, you know, prevention is done ahead of time on location to try to help those people and to protry to prevent them from to try to prevent them from being forced to flee their own country. It doesnt always work considering, you know, the world of today, but its a world, you know, that is basically, i mean, you have many wars going on, and its very difficult to answer that question just in one sentence. I think that one of the things i had in mind was the role of the media, actually, and if cnn could stay almost live for about a week on a cruise ship in the gulf of mexico which had some problem with toilets [laughter] i wonder if a ship like the st. Louis today that was not a mystery, we all knew what was happening at the time. But a ship like that in the harbor with Live Television 24 hours a day, i have a feeling thered with a different kind of result. But we have about five or seven minutes now for your questions, and if youd like, just raise your hand. Ill try to spot yes, sir. Yes. Dr. Afo to umado, please . Did i understand correctly that the reason why the st. Louis was turned back was because of an internal political process going on in cuba . I mean, my understanding was that there was werent there german operatives around that area . Budget there some influence by the United States itself involved at all . The question has to do with whether there was more to it than just the political differences and anguish within the cuban government at that time. Leads. Well, the please. Well, the main reason is the political atmosphere in cuba, and also cuba became different in 1938, 1939. Im talking about the population. The population became more and more antiimmigrant and antijewish, you know, during those two years of the 1930s. Because germany actually sent agitators in cuba like, you know, in other countries including the United States to try to make sure that there would not be more immigrants there. Its not the only reason, its just a combination of reasons. So, excuse me, theyve combined with the domestic political situation in cuba, it was not in favor of the st. Louis passengers or the other passengers on other boats. But mostly, its the decree issued by the president. Are thank you very much. You had a question. Yes, please. [inaudible] that they were likely to go back to . Was there any evidence that roosevelt and morgenthau knew about the existence of death camps . Was it known at the time what might happen to the people if they were sent back . Well, there were we are in 1939. There is no death camp at that time. But, you know, the government, the u. S. Government knows about the concentration camps in germany in 1939. But again, i mean, you know, for all the reasons that i mention, you know, they didnt, they couldnt do anything, you know, based on those, on those policies. The only thing that could have happened would have been, basically, making an exception for that particular boat and for those 900 people, making that exception because they were, most of them had registered on the quota at least. So it would have made, basically, a legal precedent from the government perspective. But i have to say i want to mention something that i didnt have time to mention during the powerpoint. What i told you about the decision of the United States is actually from the government perspective. But from the population level, its a little bit different. We talked about antisemitism, but there is also another side i like to mention also to balance because its not black and white, its more a lot of shades of gray. The National Archives in washington in college park in maryland, there are many, many letters from American People, letters and telegrams sent to either roosevelt or the state department asking for the passenger i mean, asking them to let them in. For a political reason, for historical reason, for religious reason. So you could see in those letters and telegrams the generosity of the American People on the individual level. And some of them even said i have a big house, and i can actually welcome a family of four, or i have a company where i have enough land, and i can actually hire people the come here because they couldnt become a public charge for the United States. So, you know, when i tell the story and when i have more time, i usually try to balance this, and i try to tell the story from different perspective and levels. So i wanted [inaudible] [laughter] yes, please. [inaudible] id like to ask the professor a question. You talked about the reaction of the United States. What about in cuba . We have somebody who was there at that time. The feeling of the cuban people. How did they feel about that . And we have [inaudible] she was 13 years old. Well, i please. I remember reading the newspaper. We were very, very concerned what was happening on the boat, and we wanted [inaudible] but there was no [inaudible] there was nothing that the goth was doing government was doing, but the cuban people you knew were, in fact, interested . What was happening. [inaudible] thank you very much, very interesting. Yes, maam. What was your reaction or does anyone know the reaction of [inaudible] what was the reaction within germany . Do we know anything about that, martin . Well, as you might imagine, the german Propaganda Machine went into high gear. Jost goebbels when it was discovered that the st. Louis was turning back to europe made hay of the fact that we will have to take, as he put it, well have to take these shabby jews back, and well deal with them. And the world figured out soon thereafter what that meant. No less a figure than adolf hitler himself mockingly wrote of the reaction to the st. Louis i can only hope and expect that the other world which has such deep sympathy for these jewish criminals will at least be generous enough to convert their sympathy into practical aid. We, on our part, are ready to place these criminals at the dispose disposal on luxury ships. I would like to pass that on. We know from a number of recent books that that isolationist sentiment was a very strong. Roosevelt did feel it. Roosevelt was very sensitive politically to what it is he was capable of doing and not doing. In 1938 he had been slapped down in an effort to expand the courts. And roosevelt in that period of time was rather vulnerable. We dont think of him now as we look back as a vulnerable president , as an awe inspiring president of all portrait and that. Integrated time he did feel vulnerability. He was cautious, and i suspect if an issue came before him, just very specifically youve got 900 jews on the ship. My gut feeling is he would have said no, lets move on. There are more porton things to do with. One more question. More important things. In your point of view, what you think about changes in the policy for American Jews or American Society . Changing mentality. I am a former soviet jew who was saved. Americans, not jews only, and i think wasnt just changing mentality. [inaudible] today media can write reports, whatever. How the American Jews and americans your point is i believe that how is it possible to change the mentality of the American People, or american jewry. Big time question, involving a good bit of time but i be happy to ask Diane Afoumado its just thought about that, or martin, would you like to make a comment about that . I wonder if it would be responsive. I would like to echo what Diane Afoumado said. There was a cry over the st. Louis. They were frontpage stories about the fold in the New York Times, washington post, the st. Louis postdispatch in the first two days of june 1939 when the ship was off the coast of florida and waiting for word as to whether not be allowed to disembark as passengers. And hollywood celebrities among them edward g. Robinson, sent telegrams to the white house requesting Roosevelt Administration to allow the boat to land. But once the boat was heading back to europe, there began a debate in the Jewish Community, which is still going on today, there were editorials in the jewish daily forward, and other jewish media about what at least one editorialist referred to as a shameful conduct of the American Jewish joint Distribution Committee. Dr. Afoumado charged with negotiating the cuban government and at one point said give us 500 per st. Louis passenger or a total of 453,000 we will allow them to land. Lawrence came back and said, well, i think this is all a bit of latin american horsetrading so i will offer 443,000. In other words, 10,000 less. And at that the president felt insulted and said the negotiations are over. The st. Louis must leave cuban waters tomorrow. So for a figure of 10,000, or 11 per passenger, those negotiations broke down. So even then there was debate within the Jewish Community as to whether or not everything proper had been done. Thank you, martin, very much. The remarkable thing for me, and im sure many others, about the st. Louis story is that if you examine the American Media throughout the course of world war ii, editors did know what was going on in europe. Very little of it did appear in the press. I did a study once of the New York Times coverage throughout world war ii, and what is remarkable is that the New York Times, new york paper owned by the sulzberger family, did its very best to bury the story. When they had information that a million and half the jews had been killed, information that was very reliable, gave them good sources in switzerland, passed on through london to new york, at that time the information was there, thats a frontpage story. It was put on page 17 and only three or four paragraphs. So theres something not only about the mood of the American People which martin had referred to in there is polling data, but what is it that the meeting media reflecting the mood of the American People is actually doing . It was not its most glorious day. But ive the feeling here at the library of congress we hit a glorious moment, and i want to think it and our panelists very much for participating. Thank you. [applause] thank you all for coming. If you could wait one moment. He was on the ship as a very and baby and would like to say a couple of words. Thank you very much. You want a michael . I think everyone will hear me. [laughter] the webcast wont. Sorry. By way of defense of the United States, and i am a very proud citizen of the United States, by choice, i would like to commend congress for finally, after 70 years, passing a resolution that apologizes to st. Louis and survivors for having turned us away in 1939. So i guess maybe, United States saw its ways and founded in their power to apologize. And i thank you all, and the document is in the library of congress. [applause] [inaudible conversations] for more information visit the authors website. Booktv, what are you reading this summer . Well, i got kind of an extensive list that im working