Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion 20150503

Of course one of the most famous College Professors in american history, had agreed that when all the way into the end of the century, in his book is a chapter called the american octopus come his way of signaling his continued disagreement with what when james had 30 years prior, made all the same point. But by that point it was much much too late really for the University Organizers of model to change. Theres sort of a wellknown phenomenon where once organizations become a certainly they become more like one another over time, just basic organizational theory. The question that interested me was why it has persisted for so long. These kinds of things happen all the time. Organizations form in certain ways and eventually some comes along with some new way of doing things and the world changes. And get virtually everything that robert said about university in 1934 you could say about universities now 80 years later. Why . I believe it has a lot less to do with the virtues of a model and the inevitability of the Higher Education model as we know today. And kind of an epic string of good luck that in some ways i dont think we can expect to continue. It was of course a great virtue that the American University model was made in america and not, say, and youre performing a great Higher Education institutions were decimated during the catastrophe of the beginning of the 20th century. Our universities were in the senator daschle power of the age in a tremendously wealthy growing nation, nation of immigrants were people were looking for means to uplift their childrens our colleges and universities as the way you would do that. The first nation were to decide to be a good idea to try to get everything on through high school, nation with the congress and a soda basic attempt to try to find something to do with returning veterans when they came back from world war ii. Why dont we send them to college instead that works up a commission to decide to fight the cold war by providing billions upon billions of dollars to Research Universities in order to conduct the research andmistake to compete with the soviet union. So my argument is that a wave of money and enrollment and good fortune overwhelms whatever internal contradictions might have been there all along and that we really only now in the time where in some ways those historical moment of good luck appreciate it. I will add one more the economy changed around us. You get to the point in history of american Higher Education it was a lot of social dissatisfaction, real doubts inside the academy about whether the institution would continue. It was a famous book published in the 1970s called the over educated american or a harvard economist predicted we were producing too many College Graduates and were about to enter a period in which their wages would decline. Of course, exactly the opposite happened after that because we wouldnt in the midst of the industrialization and globalization and the transition from a society where unionization, we could earn a middle income with just a High School Diploma to the world were were living to know where you certainly cannot. The only way you can have a fighting chance in the American Economy is that some kind postsecondary credential and the only organizations allowed to issue those credentials are the only organizations allowed to access public subsidies our colleges and universities as weve known them for a long time. So i feel that the flaws have been there for a long time but the consequences and the stakes are much higher now than ever before. Those internal contradictions that really waited at the tensions and the culture of the university against the core mission of undergraduate learning which is borne out in most of the research we have around how much students learn in college i think probably a lot of us are for my with very interesting work of sociology, academically adrift they came out a few years ago. The newest members of the oecd that compare the sort of just foundational math and reading skills of the average American College graduate to the average College Graduate in other countries including other countries the graduate more people who college, not less. Confined to the average American College graduate doesnt look very good compared to his or her peers in other countries. All that i would argue is at root, a function of the confusion and the confusion that causes institutions do not take their Central Mission to provide record incoherence and attention to the undergraduate educational mention nation as citizens as they are to practices or Information Technology intersects with these longterm trends, and the rest of it is talk about how things have changed, how there are all kinds of things that are possible now that were not possible even a few years ago. I acknowledge that by talking about this i join along and kind of a global roster of people who were predicted that every new kind of Information Technology would surely overthrow the college as we know to Thomas Edison high schools would become obsolete because which a students movies long time ago if they turn out not to be right. But i believe fundamentally that this time is different and i think that kind of Information Technology environment we are in now is very, very different from when the best we could do is have college on the radio or college over Cable Television that the nature of interactivity interactivity, the computational power, the ability to great authentic human communities in a commendation of a virtual space and a real space is much much different than it used to be. So we both had the opportunity to create learning environments that are actually substantially better than some of the learning environments that Students Experience now. And ill sort of possible Remote Energy everyone as we talk about paused for a moment the nature of learning to keep in mind the large distinction between the consensus the of the best learning environment is and what the learning environment the most College Students actually experience in most of our institutions. I would argue there is a large distance between the two of them. Taperecorded think about whats possible in the future, we cant say, well this, that or the other vision of technology could never become as my memory of my one great class i had in college. Because we cant remember the one great class we had in college and we tend to not remember that very many not memorable educational experience as we had an often as much more the latter than the former. The other thing we think about is just the basic issue of how not only can we do better in some cases can we can do the same for many more people for a lot less money. Thats important that we cannot ignore the economics of Higher Education in all of this. As part of the book i took a word i think of when became so tired of hearing a few years ago, something that went to the kind of classic cycle of overpraised in the disappointment but which nonetheless i believe represents a very, very important and Ongoing Development in american Higher Education. Mostly its a narrative device if you read the book, and i hope you will. I took an entire mit genetics class. I dont represent my learning extremes as representative of anything other than myself. Learners are different in many many different ways. What i think is noteworthy about the fact that i took this mit genetics class is that one thing im sure of is that my experience was in no importantly different than the experience of the students who were taking the same class in cambridge, massachusetts. Its a very kind of straightforward approach that they use for the introductory classes at mit which is of course one of many approaches but not exactly an uncommon one. It was a lecture base class. I think weve all sort of in some ways learned to denigrate the lecture as kind of bad ecology, but to go to lectures can be really good. This was a lecture that was taught by a man named eric lander of the lead the human genome project in the 1990s. Hes been teaching the introductory biology which is essential introductory to genetics. Is as uptodate in the field as is possible to be. Changes to class every year because genetics changes of you. On cambridge massachusetts, 100 students took real freshman. They take all of the lectures and then two weeks later tens of thousands of people around the world including myself watched the same lectures, did exactly the same problems that come the same homework assignment, took the exact same exams. I went up to cambridge to see the class in person. I was curious. Is there something im missing by not being there . I interviewed a bunch of the students afterwards to kind of get a sense of how they took the class. I interviewed eric lander. I want to be sure i was right about this and what that although there was the same thing. They said this class, i went to the lectures. I went back, i talked to some of my fellow students which i could easily do in the online forums. I worked very very hard on the problem sets which is at the core of an experience in that kind of introductory science class. And i took the exams. Thats how they teach the class at mit, and you can replicate that essentially perfectly at a marginal cost to the last student of nothing. Probably cost them a couple hundred thousand dollars to produce the class quoteunquote. They put it out there and now anyone can take it for free. The combination i think of the fact that we can reach so many more people for so much less money, and in certain elements but certain important elements of Higher Education, the fact that the reach of Information Technology continues to expand the fact that we can predict confidently that these four people in places like stanford and Carnegie Mellon have been trying very hard to put together neuroscience and cognitive psychology and Artificial Intelligence into really serious attempts to make the experience of learning any Technology Enabled environment much much more than what i did which was just watched lecture videos and solve problems. We can predict with confidence that certain kinds of trends are going to continue in certain kind of direction. For people of access to better technology. Our use of Technology Education we will continue to improve. The genie is out of the bottle in terms of the best quoteunquote our most prestigious is probably more accurate American Colleges and universities putting their good name behind these kinds of educational experiences. When you put that together, thats coming up with all those things together and thats what produces what i characterize and about as the university of everywhere. Heres what i mean by that specifically. I have a daughter, four and a half, about to turn five. The question and they make me wonder what the book what will college be like when she turns 18 . Will be pretty much the same when i turn 18 or will be something substantially different . I in the and cam on the side of substantially different. If she was turning 18 today she wouldve two options. She could go to a Traditional College or university or she could engage in some kind of mostly purely online version of that it wouldnt be as good. So she would go to the traditional one and i was been whatever amount of money my wife and i put together, if we were typical borrow a bunch more money and she would go. 15 years from now when she goes to college is what i think will be different. I think shell still have the option of going to a Traditional Institutions, many of which were frankly still trying to charge even more money and compete viciously with one another for the very last full pay students out there, whatever he or she has. Out of state overseas, somewhere. Ionian want to say online because i think our sense of what online means is going to change quite a lot. You cant assume that nature of interacting with technology 20 years from now is going to be like this thing that we do know, going to be an act as humans with machines will evolve over time in ways that would be more human, not less as we go forward. And then i think we now have the opportunity to create, this is the thing im in many ways most excited about new Higher Learning organizations that provide all of the hugely important yet not quite specific and tangible benefits of belonging to the and authentic learning human community. People will still want to leave home and go somewhere, have what i had as a suny student live among other people my age, have coming of age experiences go out on weekends, learned some things, fall in love. All those people so what do all those things, but you can create places that provide that experience and take advantage of both pedagogically and economically of the immense wealth of Educational Resources that will be available via technology, and put them together into an organization that i think will be both more effective and a lot less expensive. You are not going to have to pay the increasingly high toll for admission to these walled gardens of learning that weve erected over the last couple of centuries to get a quote College Education. In many ways the traditional model is fundamentally a product of scarcity. If you want to get a good College Education you needed access to three things. You need to beware the other students were, you needed to be when Critical Mass of scholars and mentors and teachers work, if you need to be someplace i could afford to take advantage of the best Information Technology of the time comes which was the printed book. All those things cost a lot of money. It costs a lot of money to build a place where you can against his people, a lot of money to buy other books worth reading, and i think because that had to be scarce weve all kind of willingly or unwillingly internalized this idea of scarcity in Higher Education and thus this notion we should judge colleges by how many people they dont lead them. We are right now in the middle of making a very profound transformation from a time of scarcity to a time of abundance and Education Resources and i really do think that will change fundamentally the kinds of educational organizations that are possible and that will become over this time. Not just here in the United States but around the world. Probably the most single most important thing that has happened on planet earth over the last 40 years is the declining global poverty. In 1980, 52 of all the people on earth were below the poverty line of 1. 25 1. 25 a the. That number is now down around 20 even as the population grew to 7 billion people. The kind of middleground estimate is between now and 2030, 3 billion people will join the global middle class. Thats more people than its ever been to college in all of Human History and the first thing you want for your children once you can provide safety and health care and food and shelter is education. We cannot educate those 3 billion people by building millions of americanstyle colleges and universities. We cannot afford to do that here in the richest nation on earth. So its not just going to come the university of everywhere is going to be in our own society. I think in many ways it will be these fantastically growing and dynamic developing societies that will that even ask themselves some of these questions about what we do with the old institutions and had we changed them. Able to write to the new as fast as they can. Thats going to be a reality that we can take advantage of but we also need to beware because they will not wait for us to resolve the argument weve been having around Higher Learning system for a long time. Im very optimistic. I think this is an opportunity for american Higher Education institutions which are the unchallenged leaders in Global Learning to be the leaders in Global Learning in the future. But we are going to look outward, not inward. Will have to have a much broader sense of possibility about what a college or university can be and ought to be and is obliged to be given the world we live in. And i think it can happen and to contaminate from our public institutions. I fundamentally believe that in a public purpose and public good of Higher Education, but we need for institutiinstituti ons and we need better institutions and we need institutions that are much less confused than they have been. So i really appreciate you taking time to listen and looking forward to talking with my fellow panelists. [applause] thank you very much, kevin. That was a great start to our delight the call of our panelists. Well, i guess i will start from up here. As you can see kevin has been joined by four panelists. But we are very fortunate to have been to each comes from quite a different background and works everyday the kind of institution which i thought would be a useful way to get some different responses to what kevin has to say today and in his book. Let me start by introducing Alison Byerly to my immediate left. Just been president of Lafayette College in easton pennsylvania for just about two years. She was previously robust at Middlebury College and specifically what she has had a good disciplinary appointment. She is a literary scholar by backroom. She been a visiting scholar at mit at stanford, at oxford. Shes a leading voice nationally about, on issues of emerging forms of digital scholarships as well as the changing role of the humanity in the digital age which i hope we will touch on this afternoon as well as mooks. Shes written for other publications. She has a ph. D from university of pennsylvania at her most recent book is are we there yet . Virtual travel in victorian realism from abuse back in a couple years back. To her left is added a dell bank of the metaphysical and overspend since 1985. He is an expert among other things on melville, an awardwinning teacher and his most recent book is called college what it was, is in should be, which came out a couple, three years ago which i had the pleasure of reading and reviewing and it really well worth your time. He writes regularly for the new york review of books and other places any rights on American Literary topics, on religious history, many different areas. In 2011 he was awarded a National Humanities medal by president obama. To my immediate right is louis soares Vice President for policy research and strategy as well as the head of the center for policy analysis at the American Council on education in washington, d. C. He said more than 20 years of experience in Postsecondary Education including anything significant for our discussion today a lot of experience in adult and workforce related education. Before being cut a cd historic of Postsecondary Program at center for american progress, washington think tank as you know and before the historic business develop an in rhode island and is also director of education and training for the Rhode Island Technology council. He was appointed by arne duncan, secretary of education and 2011, served on the board for the fund for the improvement of Postsecondary Education. And last but definitely because shes my boss, is Nancy Zimpher chance for us to university of new york, the nations largest comprehensive system of the chief which nearly half of them students that would compare with i think alison about 2500 students at lafayette. And i want to say five to 6000 undergraduates at columbia. So very large system, and since nancy became chancellor shes been a very vocal advocate for legislative reforms to try to ensure that suny continues to expand brought us close access. Shes also been very interested in highlighting sunnis role in catalyzing Economic Development in the state. Shes active in many state and local and national organizations. So the areas that particularly addressed her art teacher preparation which is something suny is working on right now with a new commission. Shes also interested in urban education, and University Community engagement and a much more. Before nancy came to sensuous the president of the university of cincinnati, chance are at the university of wisconsin in milwaukee and she was the executive dean to professional college and also dean of the college of education at ohio state. So all that said what i would ask the panel is to do and i will sit down and joined them come is just take a few minutes intoand give the broad reaction to kind of what [inaudible] after you each get a quick reactions i will ask [inaudible] there you have it. Is this machine working . So hi and thanks for coming and thank you kevin and for the book and the excellent introductory marks are often filled im invited to this kind of conversation to be the curmudgeonly the center. There you go. How about that . I was right about that. Some going to try not to be that but will inevitably probably slide into the. Weve been admonished to take five minutes which im going to try to stay close to going to try to make five points in five minutes. But first i just want to say that i agree with a great deal of what kevin said in his opening remarks that we have experienced a scandalous neglect of undergraduate and institutions would ally with a laziness about [inaudible] that we should be careful about the distance between our nostalgic ideal memories of our this policy experience and the sorry reality that is often the case out of there, and that we need to discern and. I think also, kevin makes a good case for why previous technologies in which people have invested a lot of hope the of television have not delivered on the promise. The first point which is really exactly the point, the comment. I think we have to acknowledge that kevins book has provocative and smart as it is belongs to a genre that included as other books like college unbound, some years ago called doityourself university. Some lectures on Higher Education in the digital age in which some of these questions come up. I dont mean this as illiterate person, my sense is actually a genre to which kevin book would most comfortable a loss is in Science Fiction. And Science Fiction is great. Sometimes the predictions turn out to be right. Space travel radio and credit cards, and a lot of these things in kevin book may be right but i dont think we know that. And i think we want to be hopeful because this is a very optimistic one. We want to be hopeful. Second, maybe a slightly more substantial point. Kevin suggests if i read the book right that weve learned a great deal in the last 20 years or so about how the human mind works. That cognitive science has made a great deal of progress. Im on thin ice because i am serving a scientist but when i read in the book that education is a deliberate process of we wiring your brain i am reminded when you invoke William James in your opening remarks a chapter on habits in William James book in which he essentially says the same thing can on his metaphor is sort of a water metaphor, water in pipes rather than say those going through wires. He said learning is about removing obstructions little by little until they are swept out of the way and we have created through repetitive it usage of natural challenge channel of an agenda i also think socrates do something about how the mind works, which is why he preferred the format of asking questions then making statements because he understood that people only learn things when they engage actively with questions. So im not challenging anything that kevin says about how we learn but im a little skeptical about whether we really know more about it than we once did. The third point and here the ice is even thinner because im certainly no economist. Im not persuaded we really know whether these technologies will bring cost savings. It might. I could argue it is they will but at the same time if we are going to do the things kevin wants us to do we need to reinvent, maintain and renew these institutions continually which we tried to do now by training new generations of teachers, or expensive process and not every effective one. The premise, promise you is that Digital Technology will allow us to do it more better and more cheaply. So far looks to me like well need a lot of well compensated highly trained people to update these technologies all the time. The fourth point is, i have no idea how division in kevin book or indeed in any number of other books are moving in a similar direction connect to what i do. To humanistic education, which is not the same thing as liberal education which certainly has to include science and technology, but humanistic education has at its core the data about values and intricate vision. It may very well be a failure of my imagination, i cannot grasp how the machine until we get to a point where a machine is indistinguishable from a human being, which would make it took some point can conduct kind of education that i get paid such as it is to do. And finally come again this is not meant to be any kind of skepticism about kevin sincerity for commitment to the idea that theres a great democratizing power in these technologies and we been scandalously neglectful in bring about Educational Opportunity to everybody in our society, not to mention the globe, but i worry that we may be embarking on a road that will lead to greater stratification rather than less stratification, that we may be heading to a world where the wealthy the affluent, the privilege will continue to go to the Traditional Institution i suspect that your board half yearold daughter will apply not only to a Traditional College but she will apply early decision to an early college. And kids with few resources and fewer opportunities will be online so i take the point online may mean something very different from what it means now, so thanks spirit turn it over to alison. As mentioned i am interested in technology and the possibilities of Technology Offers and so theres a lot in kevin book that are really appreciate in a way that it challenges us as educators to think creatively about the ways in which technology inevitably are changing, technologies are changing and will change the kind of education we offer. I think theres a lot thats exciting about the possibilities that are in front of us and they think if theres one thing that is most useful about this debate about the role of mooks, technology, the ways in which instruction needs to change is that it is focusing attention on education and education that we have a significant effect our regular editorials in the New York Times about seachange, what it should be how it could get better, thats all exciting everything presents a lot of opportunities for those of us in education. At the same time it will not suffice as weve identified our role as andy is the curmudgeon. Im to liberalize College President i think college has worked pretty well in worked pretty well always instagram for a while. Theres a lot advocates in the topic but i would just i could focus on three points and kevin to put their finger worth further debate. First is the premise that technology is not only going to be better but less expensive and its going to solve the problem that we all wrestle with in trying to make College Accessible and affordable. A College President in schools like but typically focus on trying to keep costs down kind offer what we have as broad as possible and, frankly, raising as much money as we can so to offer enough Financial Aid to make college available to those of a hard time paying the tuition we offer. Theres lots of things we could do better, lots away to work on it that we are a Nonprofit Organization that is not making light of what we are offering and we have a hard Time Offering it at affordable levels to imagine when forprofit entities interested marketplace. Its really hard to come in fact impossible to make money offering quality Higher Education at a time we would like or should experience and thats why we relied heavily on the validity of those of recognize the valley of the education they received an offer that back. As an economic model is have a circularity. He did most of the bank a few got the valley of the product you purchased because if youre satisfied with the become one of the alum writes the check that makes it possible to offer scholarships to idle for any like that and technology early. The mooks being offered cost thousands of dollars to develop. I guess ill be surprised if 20 or so to theres enough money even at harvard to to offer everything to operate without charge anyone. The idea everybody else available is an an attractive one but i think the slow but optimistic expedia so it has been a lot time with budgets, to get something tuition at harvard going to subsidize free portions to the rest of the world forever. It will be a budget and you get an you as to why we sent the money . The economic premise giunta is a little bit problematic. I think us who have spent decades working with students, the picture that kevin thinks of himself and by extension of the students as an educational entrepreneur who can go out and find the things they want and mix them together that is the unbundled combination of lots of things, i can is a wonderful idea. Not typical of most of the 17 18 19 and 20 old that i or anyone else deals with. They come to college wanting and needing advice. Students come to us not for information per se but far capacity to help them make sense of it, to sort it out. And to offer them advice guidance and support throughout that process. That process of securing information is different from inviting them to sit at the computer into it and found the worker i think there students who do do wonderful that we do wonderful that way. I think mit can tell you wonderful Success Stories of kids who have taken moocs thats 1 or 2 of the students were out of the. The rest were in our classes are the ones who really need a certain amount of help and guidance and thats what they come to us for. Finally, the third thing i take most issue with is the premise that place doesnt matter, that where you are as a and as a kennedy isnt fundamentally part of the education experience. For those of us who work in residential colleges, the kinds of things that go on across the institution 24 7 outside the classroom are things we think of as fundamental to students growth and develop as individuals. What we do in the classroom would like to think of as closely connected to the kind of leadership experience is they have to the current social development. I will say as someone who talks to employers about what your looking for in students and graduates come they are looking for teamwork, capacity to understand and work with people from diverse cultures come looking for social skills and communication skills. I think many people would say the use of technology am on todays students dont this should improve their communication skills. I would say that while i hope and expect that institutions like my own we learn from technology twofold Technology Classes as already are, im not sure i see it as an either or model where Technology Wins and college loses and that you are entirely separate. I hope well see a kind of hybrid model in the future where we will adopt this technology but it will be a part of a continuing learning community is deeply rooted in the experience of living and learning together. Okay. Good. Okay, so one of the things i appreciated in the book kevin, other than the table of contents which has great titles for chapters, like thunder lizards is one of the chapters youve written about todays institutions was that i thought he really well laid out is overlaying of technology socialization, the way weve come to think about what college is. I think one of the things in the book, the history of college serve is when colleges to start in western europe they looked quite different than what they look like to be. Theres been an evolution and i would posit what he believed come with what we believe in your future or not, the continued evolution maybe to something that looks like as different from what we look like to be tested it looks like from what started university of bologna. I think thats something for us to keep in mind. I board of iraq ive worn a variety of hats. Onon a policy researcher into thinker. Ivei work at the state level, and i thought i wanted to take on some of those different dimensions of time and reading kevins book. I think one of the rich things about kevins exploration of learning and technology in the book really talk to but its relational quality, that technology and our interaction with it tends to begin with actually how people learn about can improve the way people learn. And i dont think kevin provides his natural conclusion from what thats going to leave but i think its a deep question for us to all think about, that im aware of randomized control trials that show the Students Learning with enriched environments are doing better than students even selective institutions having better learning outcome. I think the question itself is when we need to appreciate in a way that whether it lead to a hybrid approach or not, that we should take seriously that it can deepen the relational quality of learning, not turn into some online think the i think cognitive science supports the internet and i think we should take seriously the question related to the. I think the question of learner agency, when is it exactly that someone has enough sort of metacognitive the skills along with a deep enough pool and a certain discipline that their study and 50 have some agency . I dont think we studied the offing of anything consider relevant question, whether kevins world is true or not come editing the academies need to take a deeply. So thats just the cognitive science park. On the policy side but also students democratic side based on data can only 27 of all students live on campus is to go to school fulltime and live on residential campuses. 73 of all students do not fit that profile. The average age of our students has been going up for the last 30 years. At least 26 or 27 now. The idea posited that young people at 18 other people we are serving looking for that kind of experience is no longer the reality of many, many institutions. And i think that demographic shift is as much an issue in feeding into kevins world that deposits for us. We focus very often we think of innovation on the Technology Part of innovation. Druker, when he was exploring innovation himself he believed what is the primary drivers of change in societal or positions was demography. And indian demography will drive the current institutional changes across society and i think we are seeing that demography is here and the way those folks need to learn because the balance a variety of things, work life, and education. How they balance that and the way the university of edwards allows them to balance a really will push demand for the. Paper at that Tipping Point university of everywhere. From a state policy perspective more broadly from a policy perspective first, you know at least since the higher ed act, since the g. I. Bill, weve been also forming what we think college is by the way we choose to fund college comp Program Integrity will come equipped out. Im not positing whether those are ready to change but lets realize its a conscious construct we have created. So policy and we as a policy can choose to change that. And society many. And finally just by way of example, so what i currently work we represent membership organization. So many colleges and universities our members and one of the fascinating things for me having come on a journey from a think Tank Community more reform oriented societal change has been to watch incumbent institutions wrestle with that change. And to link it to policy. There was a recent regulatory change in the last figures at the federal level that allowed or enhanced the department of educations ability to allow institutions to experiment with different models. Its been fascinating to watch the dialogue. Most of the institutions that ive opted to try new pedagogical models without a well branded or prestigious institutions. And much of the skepticism of the attempt to try comes from the stage is institutions. That if one could say are winning the current lottery for students and all those things. If the best thing for me to watch that happen because thats okay pressure being applied from outside of the academy. The academy struggling with itself for what is new pedagogy look like . That was trained by a policy change. And i think that these questions are in play. We dont have to believe kevins view of the future to look at some of the facts he posits for us and i believe theres a change of foot and in fact, the academy struggled with itself to figure out what it means and what is going to look like in the future. Thank you and welcome everybody. We are thrilled to have the opportunity. I assure you that the chairman and i dont want to lose our jobs so we hope it isnt the end of college. I also not only think kevin is onto something comfy got me to stop my engine and read the book and even though i finished it at 11 00 last night it was provocative for me. I love fish of Higher Education and i had begun to think that we are the second iteration of the vision. As it turns out california is three separate systems that were intended to articulate, but, in fact, find that very challenging. And, of course one of the unique one of the unique this is a State University of new york is that we had embedded in one system, but these relationship between Community Colleges come the president in our audience all the way to medical school. And it is a fast and opportunity and in many ways an experiment. So i like that. Secondarily i think the middle section of the book was a lot about examples, that you may recall that suny was a participant in this experiment using the cognitive science information of Carnegie Mellons Online Learning initiative. We did no harm. It turns out that the Online Students did pretty well, and we learned a ton about teaching and learning in that process and i will come back to the. And absolutely think, i love books that give you a massive wakeup call, and i think you did that for us. On the flipside i think it was a relatively rarefied you of Higher Education. Rarefied view. I belong to a position called the National Association of system has, 44 systems across 34 states that have the Statutory Authority to hire president s to assess and evaluate the work that these systems are doing and we think 75 of the we educate 75 of the population. I have to translate which were trying to tell us into what we are trying to do. Which is to educate more people and educate them better. And we have done something that suny to blur the lines between the segments of education. So we are very riveted. Ii do believe the degree was to have currency for a long time to come and to think you are being told by some of the respondents to the book that credentialing and Credit Opportunities are really whats going to turn the corner, that people are still going to want to exhibit what they have learned in some fashion. And i couldnt agree with you more that the transcript simply does not tell the story. And that weve lost a lot of information about what our learning opportunities have provided us. But on this journey to educate more people and to which i think the digital age can make a huge contribution, we have real opportunity through digital learning, to connect finally the k12 system with the Higher Education system. Students now are taking 3060 credit hours in high school. So the first thing about your daughter is she will probably only be in high school for a couple of years and will be starting college much earlier. Entity think that Delivery System through digital mechanisms will really help us Better Connect high school to college. It is also still the case that so many of our students come to college totally unprepared to do college work. Will be common core or Higher Standards solve this . We know not yet but i could imagine our Delivery System would be immensely enhanced if we could enable faster pace through Developmental Education to collegelevel courses using digital Delivery Systems. Once we get students the cost savings i think are not on the side of how much or how fewer number of faculty members we will have by now the student uses his or her time to get to the credentialing. So what we use the term hybrid for is to say you have residential experiences, what you have access to literally hundreds fully online degree programs and thousands of courses that can be delivered when you need them just in time for face of rapid prototyping to think Higher Education is finally beginning to think about that digital Delivery Systems allow us to provide. And time to degree or time to credential is a massive cost saver. Thats one semester more you dont have to take him one more loan you dont have to take out. And i do think it will help drive completion but even that we are engaged in a massive openness and initiative right now, we havent found a anything if they think and we havent found the ability as yet to reduce the cost of tuition because its digitally delivered delivered. But they were not the average college youve been looking at. Our tuition is come our students are you can the on this comp is relatively affordable. Its totally predictable, and its survey our students doing their part to support the system. But completion we say leads to success, and heres another digital opportunity. We want every one of our students who have applied an opportunity to thats 465,000 students doing something to apply into practice. Antigen i think digital conductivity with business and industry and the social sector can enable our students to have a more integrated learning experience, a learning experience for both theoretical and practical. And i think over time that digital experience will allow our faculty to violate engage in what ernie boyer begin to think about here when he was at the university of york, there is a scholarship of teaching and learning, at the digital age is telling us more about how kids learn, how fast they learn, how confused they are, how ready they are to we address the confusion, that anything we been able to do in the classroom. We just know more about teaching and learning from the digital age. But i think my big suggestion would be, this really is about equity and access, and i would like to see volume, too stressed that the Delivery System, i guess what i am worried about is that a residential campus will only be for those who can afford it. And the rest will go digital. We dont want that in our society. So i think if we can apply the lens of access and cost savings of ontime completion with the realities of applied learning experience that get you a job we will never leaders to capacity and the best way to educate more people, and educate them better. Thanks, nancy. Kevin come in 60 seconds or less can you respond to them will have more general discussion. Thanks so much to the panel for the road very thoughtful comments. Every much appreciated. I think the 25 good points made, so if i dont respond to some of the please feel free to bring them up again and asked me. I had not thought about the book as Science Fiction but i think you might be onto something. Im going to choose to take that as a compliment. Im a big fan of Science Fiction. Sometimes you can write about the future in ways that allow you to look at the present from new ways. And i actually agree that to some extent that science is catching up with our intuition insight about the nature of human learning that has been with us for eons. So i dont actually believe that we know so much more 20 years than we did 20 years ago about what good education is the i thinkthink the scientific basis is catching up with us and the theoretical basis for it. The question of humanity is really interesting when. To some extent from a baseline level say that if technology can do anything to change the nature and cause of humanities education, it would still changed quite a lot. That would be in and of itself something to aspire to. The most, and this is an important point, weekend to speak and have very strong yet some vague aspirations for exposing American College students to reach humanities curriculum. I think we come nowhere near doing that in practice and too often in these conversations are like the alleged aspirations substitute for what truly going on. We already live in a society where only a small number of privileged people have access to related humanities education. Wevewe have never lived in any other kind of society. So did we talk about this in my remarks but i actually, after thinking through the sorter different purposes of Higher Education, i dont think it makes sense to try to think about what we need to provide for someone to have a start in their lives as productive citizens and workers in the same way at all as the kind of education that allows them to lead a good life can be applied to people. I think there are very different processes. By far and away, the most common degree offered in american Higher Education is a doctorate degree in business. Theres not even a close second. 25 . Is an enormously high number. That makes perfect sense. We have made a transition from blue collar to comment to the whitecollar economy at least in parts of economy that people would like to be in to edit think all those business majors or just a lot of young men and women who are going to college more or less as a matter of course because they were told to or there was no real other thing to do at that point in their lives come and take very logically and what jobs in the whitecollar economy and somewhat a job in the business i will major in business. They are naked a rich education. They are not. I do think you can authentically look at the expense and say theyre getting anything close to it. I really the book college usually very good and i would recommend to anybody under but before i read my book, wrote my book. And it influenced my thinking. My relying on Cardinal Newman spoke around this traffic could use some of your definition about what a good humanities education and what it could liberal education are just as well. If you need in the beginning of your book i think you very thoughtfully try to say as full as youre able, is what i think a College Education ought to provide come and when i read that for the first time my thought was, i believe in all of this. There is no way to do this in four years. It just cannot be done. Four years is an arbitrary number that is kind of rooted vaguely in history has a lot to do with where people are in their lives and if you really going to authentically try to be comics pushes up to the humanities, i think that is a lifetime project. I dont think you ever get there. I just think its a weight you lived your life. And so part of what i can future there will be opportunities to maybe they want to get into the whitecollar economy, it doesnt take four years if what you really want is to acquire skills and knowledge to get the first job. If you ask students why they going to college, that is why theyre going to college. If you ask them, that is why theyre going. Then maybe you could be part of a learning community and as and in the process that goes on for five or 10 or 20 years, and that really is your lifetime humanities education. Its this odd thing one of the Great Adventures of colleges have is that one of the very few sources of tribal identity in a mobile world. But we form that identity mostly around useful coming of age experiences, and the relationships with professional sports teams. And the like periodic begging for money or the rest of electric its not an educational relationship once students graduate because we think they are finished and even though if we take humanities education and liberal education seriously they are in no way finished. At one point is that one but i like to make is i am not a subscriber to the diyu idea about what technology will bring us. I absolutely that people need and crave and want educational come to be part of educational communities. I do think that any the university of everywhereverywher e will be a solid expense. They need guidance. They need to support it but i would argue that an organization that is generating a few a process is there to prevent oxidation is only curating the classes that they themselves provide. And that you could create, and this is very explicitly, this is what i meant when i talked about the third option i think what create learning organizations that provide all of the mentorship of all of the support as nancy said a very correctly, the vast number of students were not out who come into the education expense in many cases with serious deficits of elementary and secondary education. They need support, guidance, mentorship, remediation in some classes. We cannot leave him alone with their computers. But i think you can create an opposition that can do all of those things, but using the business of recreating the essential content and is an essential educational processes for the 5000 or so classes that make it almost all of the credit are taught in American Colleges but rather access those things technologically thats a very different economic model, a different faculty model different pricing model. Its different in lots of ways. Thank you to affect want to connect all the classes provide a way of standardized classes for the 5000 or even less. Him of popular classes. First, i want to try to catch the hybrid university comp the whole premise, so first of all you say that there are not too many alternatives to hybrid but by the interesting most students do not really attend hybrid. I wonder whether that doesnt undercut the argument. Probably the bigger question to all the panel is teaching, research training, professional training can all put together under one roof which kevin says is the sort of thing that happened unintentionally over time deleterious results for teaching and the what do you think, is it such a way to organize a university . In the ideally should be a good way. Like kevin says he finds things about my little book sorry. Do you mind starting over . In the ideally should be a good way. Kevin kindly mentioned my book in which i wrote a chemist at cornell the wrote a wonderful article called research and strategy, teach. But with different balances. And to liberalize college likeminded teaching is different. I would argue a strong balance because the Research Supports the teaching. One of the most important teachings that is changed as a strong emphasis on undergraduate education a Student Research and the idea students become a grad student in the labs alongside faculty coauthored papers. When i think about the difference between learning online and alongside people in a setting miss the mentorship of following the intellectuals of someone you admire. Theres got to be something to it. He lasted a part of the intellectual journey, so i would argue the balance of teaching and research as part of the package that shouldnt be unbundled. If some people go to one type of college top by people who are doing research and arent actively engaged, that is not the same as being taught by teachers and followers to still have a foot in the Research Camp if we talk about the stratification nancy talked about that some students go to the brandname schools that are the top researchers in other people taught by adjuncts who are seeing the information online. Realistically, how many students at universities and colleges that are attended how many work sidebyside with researchers at to make in jamaica new projects on . The definition of researcher has to change. In the five factors that led there are many forms of research. So we need to get over what it means to be the Research University i strictly a au membership or therefore spot actor. We try to engage as Many Community College Members in the inquiry and students at Community Colleges have placements with researchers. Professor thisll break down the barriers between the traditional definition of Research Teaching and service. They are a genius but need to be redefined and i believe as you do integrated. You are the only person here who does not work for a college or university. What do you think . Could we kind of go back to this class as a standard with the 3000 standardized education courses. If you want student loan money that is what you have to do . I will try to dissuade you in europe a few years back there was an initiative across all European Countries called the bologna process to try and develop common ways of thinking about competencies that would be implied by masters degree level programs, baccalaureate miracle of the period it was modified, brought the u. S. Which Foundation Funding aac is working on how you actually created something called the requalifications profile with positive competencies at the associate master, bachelors and masters level program. That was developed in this been tested with the disciplinary communities and all of those things now. When you begin to develop that level of way of thinking about competencies lets take chemistry for example could be a sunset of competencies that you believe are common to an associates degree, bachelors degree and masters degree. As a community, not institution by institution, faculty member by faculty member. You want common core. Im not saying that at all. The community itself is starting to wrestle with that very question. Are we going to discover at the end of the journey that there are 4200 postsecondary institutions that receive money from the federal government through title iv. Are we going to discover 4200 different ways of teaching those competencies as an associates degree. Maybe they wont be won, but maybe 100 200 to work effectively for a million students. Those kinds of questions are natural in the evolution of any institutional forum, any institutional system. As i work with provost and talk about these changes what i suggest is dont just stop because of the fear of redefining things. Be curious about what it means to go the next step. You ask your students to do it. Be curious about what is on the other side of the conversation. The other thing that is a real question that kevin University University for many institutions that dont have significant endowments one of the thing the hybrid is the cross subsidy, which is you have hundreds and hundreds us to end and low division courses that then subsidize other work upstream. If it is true that some of those lower courses can be done pretty well, remember not the idea version of those courses, but the 600 students packed into psychology 101 never seen a faculty member work with das that are more or less well prepared to do that. There are ways to deliver that education, what happens to the cross subsidy . The Financial Model of many institutions depend on the cross subsidy. Even 30 of general education courses they redefine at least that many. If even some of those happen and you could do it and the work that aside it shows you can do that with at least 60 of them. What happens to the cross subsidy and the Financial Model that supports the way the hybrid model works now. That is a great segue. I want to go one more round. He raises this question of unbundling, which everyone talks about. It doesnt use the word a lot but a lot of what you discussed as the functions of the teaching, and credentialing the managing idea which i hope we will talk about a little bit which is quite interesting. Again, this comes to the question of a little bit like a hybrid idea, but not only the hybrid. Kevin and i were talking earlier about the idea that maybe her counseling functions are unbundled. Maybe some organization is credit counseling and does it for lots of colleges and maybe you should essentially outsource that like some people outsource their cafeteria staff. Select lafayette small intimate, very distinctively rooted in place obviously. Could you just get somebody else to grade the exams are some external entity. Certainly unbundling over the old terms is one of the cost cutting measures a lot of us have to do. A lot of us have parts of the campus is like three services that are all internal now. A lot of people outsource the help desks of people who call for i. T. Help might not be caught talking to your i. T. Staff, but someone that is both first and let the staff has to offer. You can take that in a lot of directions. Again, i dont claim to be representative of all sectors but a student comes to residential college, part of what makes it work is not just a dean on the phone who answers the question, but they also show up at the Basketball Team ensures them on. The person is stopped person is toxic at get a question answered knows a little bit more that they are number 12 on the ticket appeared to know where they live, who their friends are part of that sense of community enhances the learning process. Thats great for a place like lafayette. But what about [inaudible] well, we offer things that could save us time to time to spend in a highimpact community. If you look at the work of Indian University and how that is in the American Association of colleges and universities in a highimpact strategy, they are nurturing advising creating pathways push if they are not in the hybrid situation we have to learn to do online. We have to figure out how either through online mechanisms or in person we can give students the support they say they need. That you can do more of if you could get other Services Like someone else. Just one thing. That is what is so important to understand. That is the most important part of college. That is the party ticket. Other things you can outsource. The information can be brought in different ways that someone sitting down and listening to a student talk about why they have a hard year and sending them to five different offices for advice by a person on campus for someone online, a lot of us are doing skype counseling. It can be done a lot of different ways but it doesnt get less expensive. It involves highly trained competent human beings. Now that the word outsourcing has come up, we have to acknowledge and this picture says kevin c. At the weary crisis point to rethink things. We are outsourcing the teaching. That is when i was a graduate student 65 was either tenure today is the other way around. Many institutions and i dont mean this to be pointing the finger, facing the economic realities are more and more on teachers who are not fully part, who are already part of the unbundling process that is teachers who are working from multiple institutions, teachers who dont have the time to spend with students on fulltime faculty member could do. So as long as we are talking about the present as well as the imagined future, we have to acknowledge this is happening and is a very big problem. It is also an adjunct faculty are advocating for recognition. Our arrogance is gratified that people who deliver what they deliver in ways that is not useful to the parttime faculty. We have to find a new definition of that as well. A couple of thoughts. Nancy reference the experiment that was done with the Carnegie Mellon allawi. This is done through a really Good Research organization. Bill bowen former president of princeton and one of the most influential Higher Education researchers of our time today book called Higher Education in the digital age. Notably, bill boland was the second author. He had been very skeptical that you could use technology to cure the disease, which posits that certain kinds of laborintensive organizations will become more expensive because they can take advantage of the productivity but they compete and are more or less productive. After conducting experiments, may say im a believer. I now think were at the point with a statistics class that is taught at many universities randomly assigned some students through traditional class and assign other students to a much more Technology Base class. I think this is noteworthy. No differences along the spectrum of student backgrounds. It wasnt just a privileged students who do well. That class is available for any college to adopt. How many colleges and universities after reading the race which decided to use technology to save money by replacing their introductory statistics with that class which is out there for anyone . I believe the answer is zero. And that is because we have a very individualistic view of the responsibility for education. We assign classes to single people. So if you replace that class you are taking someones job away. Its probably an adjunct. But it could be the person who has an association in the class. One of the things i talked to eric about is this idea of how the nature to read biology classes would need. One of the things he typed about as a scientist is in a very collaborative environment. When he is conducting orchestrating research he has been a constant series of relationships with other genomics experts about the world. In fact, the internet made that a round the world much more powerful. A lot of professors arent even in their offices. They are somewhere else, much more engaged with heres another colleges because that is their people. The other genome experts around the world. When it comes time to taking classes, he is not in a community of people who teach genetics onetoone around the world. He is basically by himself. He said look, what we need to do is have a class with a guy or woman hes the guy, who was like really really great at this one piece of the curriculum , the person who spent a lifetime of research and somebody else for this one and somebody else for this one. They said that would be a whole lot more complicated to put together and require more work in coordination. We dont take the approach to developing undergraduate classes by a march in the american education. If he did not, maybe you repeat the process 10 or 15 times and then you have 10 or 15 different versions of the introductory genetics class and each one of which is the result of the wisdom and ideas of lots of people. When you dont have as 5000 for once each taught by a Single Person trying to reinvent. That is a very different vision of how things could be organized. Listen, a few minutes before we go to our audience q a. I want to talk about quality of. You say the universities have no idea how to show their acceptance. Then he proposed a system with a detailed transcript and things where you can go on electronically and figure out all kinds of things about a person. How do we know it is going to be reasonable to say . I dont know what accreditation you have in mind if any. How do we know someone who has taken a melville seminar is really going to be someone who is a highly accomplished writer and analyst. That is number one. Number two after that if you have any questions for the panelists. I dont know how we answer that question now other than the person teaching the class has a broad association with an institution that is under the umbrella of a very Broad Product control process that doesnt even have any meaning for the upper 60 of institutions at all. The Accreditation Process only even practically affects the bottom tier of institutions. It is a nuisance for the rest of them. A very expensive and annoying nuisance. It isnt going to its next accreditation run with any fear. Weve got to do this and maybe well make it work for us. Mostly weve kind of got to do this. I think it actually called for this in a recent oped i wrote this at the federal government should stay here at the 3000 classes. I dont think anybody wants total standardization of anything. It would be kind of great if the government could stay organized a group of scholars in the field to validate a class and say this is a good enough class. Rather than validating institutions actually look at the educational content, which is not how the process works now. They determine the quality issue played a process that you could voluntarily associate with. Not talking about tearing down the existing accreditation system. It has its own narrow value from an institutional selfexamination standpoint. But as the only means of Quality Control that we use to attach to a massive system of government subsidy, it is built to fail. I dont want to be naive about this, but a seamless transfer, which is something universities have been working on for decades, which guarantees associate degrees to make Community College will get you a junior status at a fouryear institution is alive and well and exactly what the faculty are doing when they sit down and try to determine 70 of the class that is core and 30 give or take is more indigenous. Furthermore we figured out a way to transfer major courses. For five credit courses permit for your institution to four year institution. In these kinds of institutions, weve been trying to collapse the curriculum to send generalizability said the students remember that students have the advantage of making sure the credits they take will transfer and lead to another institution. If you can do that with 64 campuses you can probably cope with 2000 or 3000 campuses. I just wanted to ask, you have an engineering school. So the universities everywhere students who might have gone to your school instead taking one from column a and two from column b. And go into the organizations where there might be some kind of classrooms and hybrid in all kinds of things we havent invented yet. So what happens with how you presume pretty good. Belligerent thoughts be about a future engineering . It is for pointing out her engineering students are doing a lot of hybrid learning in the classrooms. With a professor of chemical Chemical Engineering is put shirt that he is a Lab Techniques for shuster repetitively teach and now she teaches only once. I like the model that having greater collaboration at different institutions could allow you to save time. Where i would differ if i was a teaching is different than what was 20 years ago. I would be an not to check with 10 friends to see what i can find out. It is the most handson discipline we teach as an institution. It does require communities to get good internships. It requires working amounts of materials and i think were kevin has a very strong point that i would agree with is that our structure is not very included. Way better transferability. Our engineers go abroad for a semester. A lot of them study in bremen. You can target engineers to go abroad. I think we would all agree that our structures are a little bit too cited. Its important to remember courses are contextual. There is not one course that works everywhere. The students different from a student at stanford. They all offer engineering but theres three different sets of students and probably different goals. I worry when we talk about finding the perfect faculty members we forget what makes a faculty member most successful is knowing students they teach in pitching their class to their students. Okay. And me. Just trying to be brief but i feel you need to say this. You raise the question of quality assessment. How do we know if we achieve what we are trying to achieve in an educational environment. You mentioned a melville seminar, so i guess you are sort of looking at me. So forgive me, but i wrote down what you said. How do we know if the student is going to emerge as a highly accomplished writer and analyst . My response to that which goes to the point i was trying to make about the humanities being outside the conversation has nothing to do with what i look for as the value of the courses that i teach. But i want to know is whether the student has developed a greater sense of responsibility to other human being a greater sense of the complex city of his or her relationship to nature is more thoughtful about how he or she is going to live her life and those are questions to which i cant possibly know the answer and what i tend to say to my students as i can give you a great but if you really want to grade, come back in 20 years and tell me how you lead your life. So you know, that is why i think humans tend to be grumpy and we are well aware that we represent a shrinking fraction of Higher Education. But i think the skepticism that emanates from humanistic one or from assessment bashers come assessment bashers, metrics and found these to be taken seriously in this regard because we dont want those questions to drop out of education. We dont want those business majors to never have confront questions like that. That is my spiel at no point. Just to go to the course extreme from the wonderfully melodic set of observations we touched on costs a little bit in those conversations. One of the questions to think about deeply is whether his humanities or Something Else whether you choose to the completely nuanced course is one faculty member at the time is that society is paying for this in the question for us all is maybe it is in hysteria that theres too much better days but maybe its not. If a society has reached this threshold of saying we cant pay, then choices will start getting made. That is the real question, especially for folks at the institutions. Maybe it is more nancys things that keep her up at night than faculty members. The money just doesnt come from no place. At the state level competing with medicaid funding in k12 funding them in that order higher it gets last. So that is why is an issue for selected nonprofit schools but there is this tendency to look at that aspect of it where the idea of a certain number of common core is not that it would be great if we can tailor everything as kevin says in his model. It is that societies process is making choices about these things than absolutes are not one of the parameters of that choice. It is compromised. It is like what level of quality can i afford to pay for . Will vote theres obviously a lot more to be said. I will skip my great idea of having question ask questions of the panelists. I would like to now have the opportunity to have audience members ask questions. If you could come to the microphone right over there we would love to entertain your questions and would probably have 15 minutes or so to do that. I think we have one over here. And the lady in the back. I think you are first in line. If you could please tell us who you are. Also, this is something i usually have to save washing 10. I dont know if its necessary new york. Please questions. Not statements. I am sean okeefe. My boss is sitting right there. And the Vice President for Information Technology at Lafayette College. So im interested in the technology aspect. One of the things ive been thinking about is even talking about is the dimension of the student perspective. We talked about this in your opening remarks started the g. I. Bill, in the 60s and 70s was certain things. Now i feel most of the students and i hear from my peers are essentially going because that is what is next. The really embedded in new and different kinds of things. Some students come to liberal arts colleges because they want a certain kind of setting up a way of learning and some people may have a preprofessional kind of scenario. I guess what my question is as i see not the end of college but i see sort of a world in which there is still 4500 institutions but instead of the Carnegie Classification whatever they are maybe theres fewer of each class, but more classifications. In other words, a diversity kind of institution writing for fewer students because theres more of us. This institution, that institution and it becomes a much broader landscape then there is are one are too, whatever the cause desire. So then i think about the conversations then becomes how do you live in a world where theres more kinds of institutions but you dont want them stratified on an economic basis. In other words are still Lafayette College but you dont want to be a private only finishing school for rich kids. You want anyone who wishes to experiencexperienc e the education to do that. We could perhaps learn from different technologies and different approaches in the way that would help us achieve the goal within the context but it is a much broader certain spectrum of kinds of institutions. I guess my question is do you see any of that . How do you see this sort of diversity kind of institution affect landscape as opposed to there is no more of Lafayette College and to dissolve this, but theres no fit the institutions of faith he types of accreditations in the challenge becomes how to navigate your institution in the world so that you dont impact go under. We heard about Sweet Briar Institution like that. That is sort of what im thinking about us are talking. We are talking about many of the same things and the same way. I feel like liberal arts colleges, the really cool things that came here in the United States. We will have many of the strongest claims to relevance and value in the future that i talk about because they are committed enough and small enough to the undergraduate learning project that would provide things that you are going to get in a larger more confused institution. I dont think that they are on opposite poles of technology either. As we know from the work you are doing, i talk about Davidson College in the book which is a member and so they dont see any conflict at all between their history of focusing on graduates earning, humanities scholar. She also thinks this comes as part of the future. Ultimately, if we are going to have broader access to all kinds of the opportunities that we want everyone to have, theres only two ways to do that from an economic date. We can provide more public subsidies and i dont in any way see if necessary connection between technology, product dignity and state disinvestment. I reject that frame of looking at things. But we cannot institutions that arent as expensive to build and are thus expensive to operate. But we havent done yet is create an economic model for somebody creating a new organization could adopt or it can make authentic claims to providing the sort of education at Lafayette College at Davidson College provides. But isnt sorted so structurally as expensive as the institutions we have now. If you want to build one from scratch you talk about hundreds of millions of dollars. I give the example of a Branch Campus at the university of minnesota, which they build in rochester, minnesota because mayo clinic is there and they didnt have a Branch Campus. They built a two blocks away. They rented out an expensive space in an abandoned food court. The classes are bigger than 30 so theres no classsize ratio involved at all. Theres only two majors and that is key. Health majors because they are right near the mayo clinic. If you want to major in Health Sciences and the state of minnesota or elsewhere, you go there. If you want to major in Something Else come you dont go there. What is amazing is because they are so small and because they started this new premise the chemistry teacher in the biology teacher of english teacher and philosophy teacher while coordinating curricula over the course of a semester some events as students go from class to class which is commonsensical and entirely impossible in an unbiased, dispersed approach to investing authority and educational decisions that all institutions have not just Research Universities. This goes all the way into institutions dont have much of a Research Mission at all. So it is creating space both economically and from a regulatory standpoint for people to create new institutions of the old institutions can have a more concrete sense of what is possible and what they could aspire to. Its fine to talk about competition in this context. That is what will get us there. The next person to come out then please feel free to address the panel if you have questions as well. Thank you so much. I would just like to have a couple of things fixed land. I am basically doing some financing of globalization and Higher Education and many presentations on internet seminars and conference. So what is the observation that if there is a way Higher Education in over a decade, nobody has predicted 10 or 20 years back. So the one example i can give you is whether we buy it or not but more education in terms of the population coming to the institutes. If you look in india and open University Almost 3 million or more than not people are being educated in terms of Higher Education through online distance. And even in the United States, some of the institutions they resisted, like harvard and tea and now they have their own type type that being said, [inaudible] billions of people come out of poverty. Yet the question is how much, you know, how many of them can have Higher Education. That makes my question which reminded me in the 1970s this coolest. The schooling society. So it is almost kind of similar. So how do you treat Higher Education, history or city or believe that Higher Education is a private group or public group or if it was a private group, would it be good and now it has become a private group. The state of Union Address president obama we have to stop and ask a question. So im not, how do you think that this is a higher percentage of the amount [inaudible] share, i believe wholeheartedly. But i think that is a contested notion. We are very new and to the idea of building human civilizations that have any aspirations to provide Educational Opportunity to its citizens. That is not something part of anybodys lengthy history. I think it is very much a cornerstone of our american selfconcept in terms of the American Opportunity we provide. That is fragile. One can only reasonably observe where we are today and say it is in decline just in terms of how many public leaders talk about their priorities and the actions that they take in terms of supporting Higher Learning. And its complicated because im fully aware that some of these arguments can be used for comical purposes. I take seriously the threat that we say well, lets do it on the cheap and so it doesnt even concern is that much. I think we need to move forward towards a vision of Higher Education that is worst sent jarrett, that is more authentically effect is they really will fulfill the promise of what the public sees as the public good in Higher Education, which is a combination of a balance of Higher Education is knowledge and it might make but also the kind of Core Educational institutions. I think that is connected to how we relate to the rest of the world. To be a little bit cynical Many American universities look at the rest of the world and say where can i find a wealthy dictatorship to bankroll my Branch Campus or who will send me full pay students to help me balance my budget this year . We need to do better than that. Lets get through another couple questions. If i could ask everyone to be brief because im conscious of our time table. We will have a reception will everyone will have a chance with her voice chat with our panelists and kevin. My name is stop on the road a period i traveled three hours to be here, so im very excited. Thank you for being here. Have a question. When you are talking, i was excited. Listening about video because i Teach Technology to teachers. I Teach Research and statistics. So i can see myself referring to my lessons, but there is one thing because we can prepare beautiful classes, but the mentorship i cannot see that go away and in a move environment. Thank you very much. Great question. I think some things that you put the investment in you can drive the cost down close to zero. Mentorship is not. Human relationships are not one of those things. But if we could get to a place where the things that can be low cost are low cost and that will free up money to invest more money in the service and support in mentorship that College Students dont get in any kind of substantial way. There are some interesting organizations i talk about in the book that are trying to find ways to also tackle that issue in some kind of intermediated and technological ways. That is promising as far as it goes, but again, everyone is somewhere in most of us live among a lot of other people. I think well want to have facetoface interactions. If that is what we do thatll be very very different and a lot better. I think weve tried to say that we are really breaking through support systems that also can be online and we are learning a lot more about it. So we are not standing still on the issue, but it cannot always be an person. It may not always be the professor. Clearly if you teach at group its hard to be a mentor to each of them. Is there a way to a source that what they still feel the excitement of intellectual engagement and provide during it is getting some level of responsible mentoring from someone who is not the answer here. One of the questions i would ask the audience and the panel is what happens if you combine some of the low cost access to content that kevin would argue within an institution built around being a mentoring shop. So you end up with just to be provocative essay appeared you end up with an institution not built on the hybrid model at all that he describes. At all. I understand. One of the things that has been humbling for me as they move from the content community to the world of representing colleges and universities has been to discover one of the core challenges that of the core challenges of you beaded teach an institution today. The kind of ideas kevin introduces are not just provocative ideas. They are peoples paychecks. They are the way you to work today. But i think when i work with the provost that we do Development Programs for stop for a minute and think what if you built an institution today about mentoring and you added the disciplinary content about that model. You may not even be less expensive, but what with the Institution Look like that is different than what you do now . Its an exercise that helps them think very outside of simply preserving what they do. Thank you. But i would like to do is have the next two questions that back very quick and then do a lightning round of fielding questions and then well wrap it up. Is that going to work . Then we will have responses. Are a bright are a red fire come and trim that Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and College University at albany. I want to take up the cross subsidy question and ask whether the hybrid is allowed to build a mediocre undergraduate experience in a worldclass Research Enterprise and whether this transformation might be best to have a worldclass undergraduate experience and a not so Good Research enterprise. Great question. Thank you. Thank you very much. Andrew shurtleff. Ima graduate student there. A lot of the comments have reminded me of the idea of what do we do in a context where we are dealing with a major scale crisis. We have achieved great things are done terrible things historically. Our human story. What does it what does that what does it mean when we have things like Climate Change . How do we use technology to ask and the range of access beyond the privilege and insular walls of elite universities and provide access to humanistic education, but one that is mobilizing the power of a core curriculum to address bigger questions like Climate Change coming to continue his work on the resource or cities. In your view to what extent is this vision serving a spouse . Last question, please. Remolded president on the board of trustees. Have you you see the university of everybody serving trying to say the word underprivileged student in . Well, thank you very much. If i could ask everybody to do a really quick response. I want to start with laurie because they think the online opportunity is the democratization of access to education. We have so many students, so many young people who are not making it through the college so we can afford to examine college outside the lack of a coherent pipeline to college. We have millions of adults