Transcripts For CSPAN2 Banned Books 20161111

Hello. Hi, everyone. Thanks for coming out tonight. As you can see and as you heard, these are cameras from cspan be, booktv. Very happy to have them here, were very happy to have this discussion here at powells. If you want to keep up with whos coming to powells, we have events nearly every night, lots of really great, outstanding stuff coming up especially in the month of october. You can look on powells. Com, our event calendars can be found around the store as well, and be you can pick those up at the information desk. Tonight were excited to host this event for banned books week. Its going to be moderated by Candace Morgan right here. Shes the coordinator of celebrate the freedom to read in oregon. And this is sponsored by the Oregon Library association and the Oregon Association of School Libraries intellectual Freedom Committee and the aclu of oregon. These authors do have books. If you would like to have a book signed, they would be very happy to sign it for you. Theres a bunch of them on that cart right back there after the talk, and there will be a time for audience q a as well. And as you heard, please wait for the microphone to come your way when we get to the audience q a so that itll be heard on the tv when it airs. All right. Thanks again for coming out. Please welcome Candace Morgan. [applause] welk thank you. And in addition to the well, thank you. And in addition to the various people that participate and celebrate the freedom to read in oregon is the state libraries intellectual clearinghouse. Were the only state in the union that has such an element in which they do all kinds of information to provide information on challenges and free speech and also collect a list of books that are challenged in oregon. So i want to thank powells for letting us have this event here. And and cnn and chris whos not here, but hes the director of the american booksellers for Free Expression, and hes the one that arranged for this to go. And there are three or four other locations in the country that are also doing this particular kind of a program. So i want to start out before we well have each of ill put some questions to the, our speakers here, and then as you heard, then well have questions and answers once we get through that. But the banned books week was started in 1982. At that year there was a big increase in the number of books that were being challenged, and many of them were also being banned. And so the american Library Association and a number of other organizations formed a coalition to be able to have this. And i want to name them all. The american booksellers for Free Expression, the american Library Association, the association of american publishers, the association of American University presses, the authors guild, the comic Book Legal Defense Fund whom are represented here the dramatist Legal Defense fund, the freedom to read foundation, the National Conference of teachers of english and people for the american foundation. So, and another thing which im sure youre probably all aware but sometimes we need to point this out, its not just about books. In 1982 it was about books. Now we have ebooks, we have movies in the libraries, we have dvds, we have a variety of different things, and we include those in all of what were talking about when were talking about challenges. And one the things to remember is that oh, i should say if your library participates in celebrate the freedom to read in oregon, then during banned books week, they have little buttons that say i read banned books. If you happen to be in a School Library, not all School Libraries do. But if youre ever in a location in portland and you dont see those buttons, you should tell them to contact the aclu of oregon, and well add them to the list. The aclu of oregon pays for those. Be so with no further ado, i will start with the questions, and if you each want to just oh, i didnt have you introduce yourselves first. Go ahead, excuse me. Introduce yourselves. Hello, im cathy camper, im the author of low riders in space and low riders to the center of the earth, two graphic novels for kids, and a kids science book called bugs before time about giant prehistoric insects. Ive also worked my whole life as a librarian, but im not here representing any particular library, but i may add some information from the library side to the discussion. Hi, im cory inside doctorow, i write Science Fiction novels and last year one for middle school readers. Im a recovering bookstore woke. I also do parttime work for a group called Electronic Frontier foundation which does Civil Liberties work on privacy and surveillance and Free Expression online. And i mention that because a month ago we brought suit against the federal government to repeal a particularly pernicious, lastcentury internet law s and were asking the court to invalidate it on the basis of its violations of the first amendment. So it relates to this work here. My names jonathan hill, im an illustrator, i was the illustrator for a young adult graphic novel about a book banning in a small town, and im also a teacher, i teach comics, middle school through college. Im charles brownstein, executive director of the comic Book Legal Defense Fund, and this years chair of the banned books week coalition. I also write nonfiction about comics, and the most recent pieces are the one trick ripoff which are out there. Okay. Well, i forgot to mention i am a retired librarian too, so we have good representation. So the first question is, why is it that we call it banned books week even though a majority of challenged materials are not removed from collections . Anybody want to well, i guess i can, i can throw out the opening pitch on that one. Banned is kind of the worst case scenario, but it all comes from the same matrix of attempting to pass judgment on content for other people. It all begins with this particular book, magazine, movie, whatever offends my sensibilities to the degree that i dont think anybody should have the right to see it, and theres a path to censorship that cathy can probably walk us through as a librarian more effectively that begins with the challenge, can go through the media attack where you go to the local media and say this librarian is putting filth into the hands of kids and ends with the ban. It all kind of comes out of the same matrix of i know better than the other people in my community in a way that shuts down the ability for people to make their own decisions about whats right for hem in their household for them in their household. I mean, and i think its unabashedly about having an accessible, catchy name for things. I mean, we call it [inaudible] it means you made something i dont agree with sound interesting. [laughter] and, you know, theres a reason we have names for things and then we have further detail about those things. We have headlines and articles, and so headlines dont always express all the nuance, because other side we wouldnt call it banned books week, wed call it the week devoted to books that are challenged but not bans, and books that we think might be banned and books people would like to ban, but but theyre not good at their job, so they fail to ban them. [laughter] it fits on a button, right . [laughter] anybody else have something to say for that . Hard to follow that up. [laughter] i agree. Im a word guy, youre a picture guy. [laughter] so what is each of yours personal experience with challenged or banned books . Well, cory, you should go first. Youve lived it. Well, so like so many of these stories, it begins in florida. [laughter] i wrote a novel in 2008 called little brother thats about kids who, after a terrorist attack in San Francisco, find themselves interrogated by the department of homeland security, they then emerge from a multiday interrogation to discover that their citys become a kind of police state and that everyone they know seems to have gone along with it, because after terrible disasters, you sort of seek daddy figures who will reai sure you with their authority. And they decide that this isnt good enough, and they build a network out of hacked xboxs to get around dhs surveillance, and they build a guerrilla army, and they kick the dhs out of San Francisco and restore the bill of rights to america. Sort of unambitious 17yearolds. Its been moderately well received. Its taught in west point, its taught at the nsa, and theres a school in pensacola called booker t. Washington high ironically where every summer they have a one book, one School Summer read program where all the kids are given an optional assignment. So an extra credit assignment to read a book thats then discussed school wide in the autumn. And the librarian and the head of the English Department came together tolan this. They went through to plan this. They went through the normal channels to do so, and like a week before school let out, the principal decided to cancel the Summer Reading program rather than have his kids read the book which he hadnt read, be but hed read reviewed of it, and he decided that he might get into trouble with the parents. And his concern seemed to revolve around the fact that a bunch of them were in the military which given that they teach it in the military, seems like a weird, misplaced concern. So the teacher and the librarian went back to him and said youre not allowed to do this. We have a process in the School District for challenging books. And it doesnt go like this. Im the principal, youll do what i say, right . Like, our process has, like, rule of law elements to it, and he told them to get bent. And so my publisher arranged to send them 200 copies over the summer that were given out for free on day one. The book is a creative [inaudible] download so you can get it for free online, so kids who downloaded the book emailed to me, and i crypt graphically signed them and sent them back to them. And lit graphs, which is this company that does tshirts and posters that have the entire text of a book on them but arranged in a weird, highresolution ascii art of scenes from the book, sent them huge, postersize list thoughs of the lithos from the book. And i heard from all these students like i never do these extra credit assignments. Theyre for, like, weenies. But i figured the principal, if he doesnt want me to read this book, i really want to know whats in it. [laughter] and i, i was meant to record a video for them about the book for the summer read, and instead i recorded a video about how disappointing it was that this process wasnt being followed, and there was a bit of press and stuff. But the thing that really was difficult and disturbing was that the english teacher faced disciplinary hearings and could have been fired. And floridas a right to work state, so shes not unionized. Charles put me in touch with the National Coalition against censorship, and the nct, the National Conference of teachers of english, worked to help her keep her job. And in the end, the superintendent exonerated her and told the principal that hed done wrong. And i did a Video Conference with the students in the autumn, but it was with an ap english class. And be this was a school in a really poor district, and what the english teacher and the librarian the reason theyd chosen that book is they thought a lot of their reluctant readers would be excited about it, and that was exactly the group that wasnt in this Video Conference. And so although the book got read and it raised its profile, theres this thing that my colleague called the streisand effect, theres this coastline survey in california for erosion where they take pictures of the whole coastline, and that includes Barbra Streisands house that is on the coast. Nobody looks at them except in an abstract way. Streisand objected to these pictures of her roof being on the internet. She sued. It went from three views to 500 million views. We call in the streisand effect. That certainly happened here. But even so the principal did manage the victory of completely confounding this personal time project that the librarian and the head of the English Department had worked on really diligently and at great personal risk to try and bring literature that they thought would engage the most vulnerable kids in their school, and he really succeeded at keeping this book out of those kids hands which is a real pity. Yeah. My book hasnt been challenged, fingers crossed, but one thing i should say low riders in space, its about these three characters that customize their car with it gets customized by outer space. And its written in spanglish, and ive noticed on good reads weve gotten some comments from teachers very irate that the spanish isnt correct spanish. So one of the things that theyre saying, in effect, is that we dont want the spanish that you speak be, that you lived, kids, we want this sort of perfected style not stylized, but almost strict spanish kind of. And its interesting, because where we are connecting, where the book is super popular is texas, california, the southwest, right where spanglish exists. So in the diaspora of spanishspeaking people, some people read it, and if you dont know what spanglish is, then it doesnt make sense to you. So, but i wanted to bring that up because theres also a lot of passive censorship well, not passive, but sort of unknown censorship. For example, librarians just choosing not to buy books. And thats another thing that ill notice if im at a signing, and its like, say, a whole lot of low brains from oregon librarians from oregon. Many times the librarians will come to say i have latino kids, but who i wont necessarily see is somebody like i have an allwhite classroom, and i think they should read this book. So there can be a lot of censorship before it even gets to the shelf. Well, i mean, for me my experience is that i wrote this book i drew this book with my friend m. K. , its about censorship, this kid in a small town in oklahoma, and he, his town kind of sucks, and he the only thing he has is reading because it lets him escape from this small town. And its one of the book series that he loves is challenged by a mother in the community. And so its sort of just like an entryway for people to Start Talking about banned books and how you have to sort of fight censorship and stand up for, you know, things that you love. But i also have a story about censorship that i actually was involved in censorship when i was in high school because i went to school overseas, i was in kuwait for most of high school, and they would it was an american school, but they, the kuwaiti government still was in charge of sort of what was approved and what could be taught because it still, you know, is a muslim country. And so how they would do that, though, is they would give High School Students the new books that wed get at the end of the year and then give us all sharpies, and theyd give us a list of things that wed have to black out. [laughter] but the thing is, when you give that to students [laughter] that are high schoolers, that are, you know, sort of wise asses, like, we were supposed to cross out, like, instances of the holocaust and also, like, persia, the word persia, but we would just my friends and i would just black out all the words around that word so that that word was sort of sticking out. [laughter] so i hate to admit that i was actually part of censorship, but i was really bad at it, so [laughter] thats my censorship story. [laughter] fantastic. A lot of what i do at the comic Legal Defense fund is actually working with the kids like the kids in america that are affected by censorship or the Library Professionals that are affected by censorship. The teacher will call us up and say i have this problem, how can you help . We will counsel behind the scenes and create resources for those folks to help them deal with the process and fight the challenges. And that kind of brings us to a point that i think gets lost in banned books week which is we get very interested in the statistics, we get very interested in what are the books that are banned because thats the stuff we want to read, right . But behind every single one of those,there are two stories that are seldom told. The first is that library professional, that librarian, that teacher, that person that got this book because their Community Needs this, and they are putting their livelihood on the line to serve their community and to get that out there, and then the second person that we really, really never hear about is that person in the community that needs access to this material. Either because they see themself in it or because it speaks to a piece of Life Experience that they are going through, or it simply opens up to a window onto the world that they would not otherwise see. And younger kids are taking that as theres something wrong with me that youre attempting to take this book away. And so a lot of my experiences interacting with those people and trying to create a path that, no, theres actually nothing wrong with you. Youre okay and we need to have a conversation about the things that are upsetting people about this book so we can all land on the same page that we all have the right to choose. Good. Anybody else have anything additional to add to that . All right. Well, the theme of this years banned books is diverse books. And so the question i would put to you all is why are more books by women, people of color, gay lesbian transgender bisexual individuals and books in those communities disproportionately challenged and banned . And id like to give a little bit more context to that, canty. According to the alas office of intellectual freedom, more than half of all banned books are by authors of color or contain events and issues concerning diverse or communities. Of the to graphic novels that have been on the american Library Associations list of most frequently banned and challenged since 2011, there were ten of those books, six featured a female central character and four were created or cocreated by a woman. And so this isnt just abstract. The statistics show that there is a disproportion nate emphasis disproportionate emphasis on diverse content being banned or challenged. Yeah, we there was actually a panel at the library yesterday that was specifically about banned books and diversity in banned books, and i think something that all of the panelists sort of agreed on was that it really is about, like, out of peoples comfort zone. And if its not in that comfort zone, that bubble that you live in, like, its a lot easier for you to, like, not read persepolis because then you might actually sort of empathize with a muslim or iranian family and what they went through and how their lives are. But if you dont create that empathy, you know, you can keep them as the villain and not understand them. And be i think thats what a lot of that is, is just sort of not trying to understand what someone is so you can villain i think another thing, and cory can probably talk to this, is we now have social media, and thats given a huge amount of voices a way to express themselves and a way to comment in a way that didnt exist before. And where ive noticed it especially is in the world of Childrens Books and in the world of comics. And if you think of it, those were very closed societies. For example, Childrens Books was mostly white women publishers, white women teachers and librarians and people that like Childrens Books. And if you look at comics, it was white guys that were fanatics about comics. And for both of them, i think its really important to also realize that these are fantasy worlds. Like, its a place that people kind of escape to. So to suddenly have voices outside of their group saying, wait a second, you know, like in comics you have to have women, and you cant draw women that are always just boobs. They have to be thinking and, you know, do stuff. [laughter] and i think that, i mean, i bring that up because theres been in gaming, the gaming world too were seeing that. Theres been horrible backlash. I mean, you know, you should be able to have a discussion like were having without Death Threats or having people feel like they cant ever go online again and they have to wipe out their, you know, twitter account or something. So that was making me think why is this so vicious . And i think that theres a connection that its a fantasy world. Its kind of, you know, like the den you retire to where you dont have to think about politics, you dont have to think about these things. And now suddenly, theres other people at the table that say were here too, and we have a voice. Im arabamerican and, you know, the other thing i want to bring to this discussion is that the censorship starts the minute you write a book and you try to get it published. To find an agent, to find an editor, the kinds of comments youll get. When with i was sending lowriders out, i got things like great story, great art, too marginal an audience. And that was me saying in my cover letter that by 2050 a third of the country is going to be englishspanish speaking. And this was sending it to the top agents that represent graphic novels. That wasnt in their marketing scheme, you know . And and i think that, you know, now its moved into that both like, publishers and agents. Its not just that we dont have enough diverse or books, its that we also dont have enough diverse or publishers, agents and reviewers that understand what theyre reading and know how to address that. Id like to add something to this too. Last year at the county Libraries Program there was a group of women, diverse women, very diverse, and they talked about the publishing issues and how hard it was to get. They added a different thing. The publisher chooses what the picture is on the front of the book. And a number of them had a publisher kind of whitewash what this book was really about and have a picture that had nothing to do with the book. One of them at least refused he went to get another publisher as a result of it. Some of them felt that they really wanted this book to be published so much and if people read it, they would know. They were somewhat intimidated about it. So its a very big problem. I think were circling around the idea that this is like multifactorial. You know, publishers are not objecting to people of color on covers of books about people of color because theyre implicitly racist, its because, its because they have this unfounded superstitious belief that this will not succeed in the market. And maybe a founded, nonsuperstitious belief that buyers from the fairly small number of significant chains and other acquirers for trade books will not buy the book, will not take big orders, right . So that might actually be true, right . They may be successfully assessing what it is that the five or six big accounts for the five big publishers, how they deal with books, right . And what their superstitions are or what their beliefs are. And so thats definitely one factor because without breakout books that have people of color on the cover, its very hard to argue with the superstition that you cant sell a book that has a person of color on the cover, and its a vicious cycle. Then theres this dimension of empathy which i think really well said, you know . That often times these narratives of marginalized people are narratives about what it feels like to be on the other side of a bunch of interactions that are in mainstream fiction presented as really wonderful, right . You know, the canonical example was where a woman wrote a book called the wind ungone which retold gone with the wind from the point of view of the enslaved people instead of the people who enslaved them x. Its, as you might imagine, right . Gone with the wind is a really different story from the perspective of the teem enslaved. The people enslaved. So its to make you empathize with inconsequential, imaginary people who never lived, never died. You have, like, bought into the con again with,ty of these imaginary humans, and then you find out that having gone through it all and having spent years thinking about them and relying on them and all the rest of it that theyre horrible people at least from the perspective of other people in the story. Why are you empathizing with these other people . And then theres a certain amount of it is just racism, homophobia, whatever. The reason people dont want my, what is it my friend has two daddies or johnny has two mommies or whatever that book is about, heather has two mommies, its because theyre homophobe, right . I mean, that parts easy, right . [laughter] sometimes books by people of color and queer people are censored because theyre homophobes, and the other piece is theyre people who have crappier lives than the people and not as upbeat. And when were talking about kids books, narratives about even people who are generally happy but live anything shitty circumstances, you know, whether thats anne frank or a contemporary narrative about people growing up in very raciallydivided america with Police Shootings and what not, those peoples stories, there are lots of people who feel like i dont want my kid to read stories that are sad, disturbing, down beat, whatever, right . So thats like not a totally illegitimate thing to say, i want to choose as a parent when my kid understands stuff that might bring them grief, but theres also a certain point beyond which its like, well, theyre 14 now. Like, when are you going to introduce them to the idea that not everything is perfect outside of your allwhite suburb, right . And so all of those factors, i think, swirl together to create the perfect Dumpster Fire of mass censorship of books by marginalized people. And i think another part of this that you get to, cory, is that our lawyer likes to say censorship is about control largely, and its about exerting a sense of control particularly in circumstances that, you know, are swirling around that are not something you can control. So if youre talking about your kid that is exiting childhood and entering adolescence, theres all of these factors of loss of control that are happening in your life at that moment. Are you really upset that your kid is reading a john green book that has issues about teen sexuality . Are you really upset that theyre reading this one summer which addresses miscarriage and teen pregnancy . Are you are upset that they are about to enter a phase in life where those are real consequences for them, and maybe youre not ready to have that conversation. And when you really drill down, a lot of censorship begins with concern. You know, these really arent bad people usually. Yes, youve got the homophobes, yes, youve got the racists. But largely youve got people that are really worried about their kids and are just entering into the conversation from the wrong starting point that if the values that you instilled in your kids as they were growing up are durable, your kids are going to be able to parse this fine. And part of the job of parenting and part of the job of teaching is having an open door to have a conversation about the media that theyre engaging with. I remember im sorry, go ahead. Well, one of the things i was going to say as a librarian, i laugh when i talk to kids because they say, you know, just because you read this book about suicide, say, it doesnt mean im going to see you all lined up on the hawthorne bridge tomorrow jumping off like lemmings, you know . [laughter] and its equally as likely that you might down the road have a friend call you late at night and be really depressed. And because you read this book, youre going to be sensitive and know what to say. So i think its easy for people to make that jump, that if you read this, youll do it. And in actuality, the books that probably are most productive that way, its the bible, right . [laughter] i mean, in terms of books that make people act and do things . Its probably religious texts. You know, join a group, give money, start a war. [laughter] charles, i remember you once mooted the idea that parents are so freaked out about what their kids are reading because its literally the only part that parents can conceivably influence in an age of standardized testing and common core. You know, like also where your kids arent allowed to walk around on the street on their own because of stranger danger, and when its not that, because of the danger your kids present to everybody else. That really like the only time you get to say i really think that my kid should be learning x is about what books they should be reading, and and its also a thing that a lot of people feel qualified to comment on. I mean, i think Everybody Knows that when you talk about, like, i think the nine different ways my kid is being made to learn to solve a fraction are nonsense. Theres only one way to solve a fraction. I learned it in 1975, and its good enough for me. I think everyone kind of suspects they sound like an idiot when they say that because they havent actually solved a fraction in a long time. [laughter] but i think lots of people feel qualified to discuss what makes a good book right. You know, as ive discovered to my great dismay as an author. [laughter] yeah. I think thats right. I think it does come down to, you know, so much of the world is spinning beyond what youre capable of influencing, and books a lot of times really come down to the values that we hold close. Thats why they hit a nerve, you know . Art has power. Its why people try to suppress art. But the more productive conversation is to really engage with it. You know, and it is a marketplace of ideas, and there are bad ideas. Theres a lot of bad ideas. But is the answer to those bad ideas to say we dont want to allow that anywhere in the community . And, therefore, amplify it, you know, fiftyfold, or we go, no, thats a bad idea and heres a better alternative. Anyone else . Okay. Now, many people assume that most of the challenges to materials are done by, are conservative reactions to books and other materials they disapprove be of. Is that accurate . Well, this is a question that i, that i wanted to bring up because we live in a very liberal city, portland. But as a librarian anecdotally, ive heard and and read that a lot of the challenges are coming more from leftwing liberal people. And i can name two that ive heard of from School Librarians. So one was theres a book, an alphabet book that has military equipment and, you know, its abc, but its tanks and guns and things like that. So that was challenged at our library here because of the violence and the hate. And then a School Librarian told me that hes received multiple complaints from his parents about the comic book bone for being racist. And how he described it as the main characters white and the other characters are of color. Now, i dont know if that was just based on the colors or if theres sort of a white colonialist theme, because i havent read bone. But i wanted to bring those up because i think its easy when i talk to liberals, to kind of laugh and go, haha, they wanted to ban harry potter because of the magic. But its a little different when you start hitting home to things that you agree with. And, you know, i think that thats important to Pay Attention to, and its also, its a little different depending on the context. For example, in a library we believe that a lot of things should be available. Its not because were pushing them or because we have an agenda, its because we buy books based a Public Library buys books based on the population it serves. And just a quick thing to go through, usually a big library, any good library should have a selection policy which says why you buy what you buy, because we dont ever nobody ever has enough money to buy everything. But then if a book is challenged, its not one person whos buying the books, and its not one person defending the books. You have a statement that you turn to that says this is why we have, say, gay and lesbian books, because we have a gay and lesbian population that gives us tax money. And if you dont like this book, theres probably a book that you will like. So its not that every book appeals to everyone, but there are some books that appeal to everyone. Other libraries like a religious library or School Library be, they have different selection policies. And, like, a School Library wouldnt be expected to have books for ph. D. If its an Elementary School or things like that. So those selection policies can differ. And as we said, if a book is challenged, it will usually go to the librarians and the board of directors or whoever oversees that library, and then theyll have discussions, and and either the challenge will hold and the book will be banned or moved or kept behind a locked door, or it wont. And it will be available. I well go to the questions. I am frequently asked by individuals who work in religious organizations about having materials that are counter to their religion, and what i always say to them, i suggest what they do to talk to the person whos doing it. This institution is for learning, its also for putting forth the policies of your church. And how can you be out defending your church unless you really read what the opposition is . Because you are not going to, not going to have an impact if you have not actually made it available. And you may not want to have them in your home, but having them in the library is another thing because nobody will force you to read it, but you can, as a matter of fact, find out information thatll make you more effective advocate for your religion. I think that theres a lazy way of dealing with criticism that equates it with a censorship attempt. So, you know, if the idea is that the answer to bad ideas is more ideas, then we should expect people who object to the content of a book to say forcefully what they think is wrong with it. And if it stops short of and thats why the library shouldnt have it or thats why our kids shouldnt be allowed to read it, thats exactly kind of what we want. So, you know, the poster child for doing it right is sites like feminine frequency which did this program to do a series of videos about why games that we all love which are fun and good games have elements in them that are really dumb and terrible and mostly and gratuitous and it relates to the way that they handle gender and particularly women. And the answer to that was what you referenced before, or it was a sort of uprising among people who are really angry who said by telling me that you think there are things in my game that are bad, i think that what youre saying is those people shouldnt be allowed to make games, or i shouldnt be allowed to buy those game, or i shouldnt enjoy the games. And really what was interesting about her critique, a woman who made these videos, a wonderful media critic named anita, was that she focused on how it was that things that were wonderful and fun could also be troubling and how you could separate the two. How, like, if you were going to sit down and make a game today, you didnt have to make a game that was super fun except for when you thought about it for ten minutes, and then office and then it was a Dumpster Fire, right . Thats what a critics job is. And i hope that when you seek critiques from the left, that they land there. Sometimes, obviously, they dont. But often times the response to a criticism or a critique is to say, well, thats the same as telling me im not allowed to have my book, and no ones saying that. Or thats not whats being said in many instances. But there are also a lot of instances increasingly where it goes on to disinvite the person who makes the argument that we disagree with. There was a New York Times article yesterday that coined the phrase weaponized outrage to discuss the phenomenon of speakers being disinvited from College Campuses or the attempts to suppress certain kinds of books in classroom environments because they hit something that, you know, people feel is inappropriate for discussion whether its representation or, you know, other sorts of issues. And i agree 100 with cory, those criticisms are 100 valid and i think should be brought up and be part of the conversation because the 21st century is a different time, we have values, and thats how values evolve. But the idea of suppressing the people that we disagree with doesnt move anything further down the line. It actually creates enemies where you might have had allies, i find. Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say too that one of the basics of censorship is always somebody that has read something or or purports to have read it, and then they say that others shouldnt. So it kind of goes back to, but wait, you got to read it, you know . [laughter] so its like somehow they looked at it, and then no matter what they say, you know, its like they dont want others to. So for me, thats when my librarian side gets kind of upset because its like, well, at least let me look at it and decide. Theres a particularly pernicious version of the argument that goes this media, and its Science Fiction novels, games, comics and kids books is where this often lands. This medias meant to be inconsequential and silly and lightweight, and nothing of significance is sewed to happen, and youve written something that deals with weighty issues and, therefore, youve done something wrong. There are unsuspecting children who are thinking that all theyre going to do is direct, like, you know, a yell row wawa around a maze to eat power pills, and all of a sudden youve made a game about depression. And youre going to spring this on them all unawares. Theyve come to your Childrens Book to read about cats in hats, and now its about suicide. And how can you, how can you mix and match in this way. And thats a particularly silly one because really people are seeing this thing that i love is meaningless, and i take pleasure there things that from things that have no gravity, and the world wouldnt be different if they were gone, right . And i always feel like thats the easiest argument to counter. If you love it so much, then why shouldnt it have consequence . So one more question and then well have some questions from you. Are there any kinds of books and other materials that libraries and bookstores should not make available . I mean, apart from books that are so i guess we were talking about this before be, and i think that we need to draw a line between books that, like, every library and every bookstore doesnt make some available because the space of all books is larger than the space of all the books you can put under one roof, right . So its really books youre not making available because you dont want people to read them, not because they wont buy them or check them out. My question is more like ones that really should not be at all. And the only thing i could think of thats happened sometime, occasionally an author will be found out that its ladies and gentlemen be rich. And so plagiarism. And so the question is i know that was a big issue a couple of times, and the question is, if its plagiarism, should you till have the book . Still have the book . Well, i think one of the things i argue, we have mein kampf in libraries, and its because people do research. So sometimes a book like that is valuable because of the history of it or what it represented about the time. Again, it depends what your library or bookstore is featuring. So i dont know that that would be the ultimate thing not to get. Im laughing because years ago i worked at the library where, when madonnas book came out, and what we had to do was keep it behind the desk, and people had to leave their ids. More people read that book than probably [laughter] and it was battered. It was falling apart by the end of the time. But it was, it was a way that we could at least provide it so people could look at it and decide and not view are it. Yeah. I worked for Vancouver Regional Library in Washington State and, yeah, we had to do that also. When you said it was battered, i had this horrible version of, like, fish and chips batter. [laughter] awful. Yeah. You cant have, like, private study carols in your library no, no. I think theres also two pieces to distinguish here and, you know, one is that, again, it is a marketplace of ideas. So to your plagiarism example, candy, you know, that is a marketplace of ideas issue where if it has been plagiarized and the consequences are, you know, on the publishers side on whether you want to keep that book in circulation, and theres a legitimate argument for pulling it from circulation than what cory was saying about business decisions, shelf space. And i think secondly, we also need to distinguish between content and conduct. One of the examples is the anarchist cookbook, you know . That is a book that is full of ideas that can lead to, you know, illegal conduct. Its a business decision whether the store want withs to offer it or not. Thats, you know, a legitimate marketplace of ideas thing. You know, when youre talking about a person like phoebe locker in who does these wonderful books that address Sexual Violence and child Sexual Violence, that is content. Shes not advocating for it, shes talking about Life Experiences that happen to people. Thats very different from child pornography which is the actual crime of a real person that is being abused. Theres all kinds of icky ideas, dangerous ideas, all kinds of ways that people can taking . They learn in a book and do harm from it. That doesnt mean that the book should not be available to discriminating members of the community to distinguish, you know, between. Where you dont want to take away something that has value in the cultural conversation because somebody might do harm. Thats creating literal thought crime. I agree with you totally on that. And i think something that you said last night, charles, in that panel, a lot of its about cure ration. Kids always read a grade level, you want to know whats coming up, but it is. I dont think there shouldnt be books available, but you have to sort of know when to let certain age groups or, you know, access those, that information. When i worked as a selector, i was selecting graphic novels for kids, and so what i was told was that especially with manga, if theres anything with boobs in it, put it on the adult side. Where you read something beyond your experience or maybe you stopped but whether it was sexual or violent but also your way to explore and itel parents how much better to do that in a book rather than on the street . And oftentimes the way to push those boundaries how would i experience that . Then i will circle back of this is more than a box. There are definitely things on the web that most people should not seek including me with a large set of things that dont want my eight yearold to see that we are struggling with what to do with schools and libraries and other places that make the internet available to the public we do have some big problems that we dont have a filtering technology that works. There is the basement big enough to decide which one the eight yearold conceivably will construct one so perfect and we did a study in 2003 with the common curriculum. To run them through the school filters that are mandated under the communication and decency act. We found that in some cases threequarters of those websites were blocked by a school network. There is over blocking and under blocking because if you miss 1 billion 1 billion fed is 1 million pages from your schedule from your filter so then we are not getting any bad better in fact weirdest doubling down on what didnt work so one thing about Network Filtering is that of mike library censorship of igo to your library to take off the shelf it is offtheshelf. But if i block this in your School Library deal the way to stop people from visiting is to look at every click everybody in the library makes a have to know what everything reads in order to stop them from reading that bad things the companies that provide this supplied the former soviet states of political sense aware that they repackaged for the fortune 100 companies and american schools and they have a terrible Privacy Policy so everything that our kids look at is totally indiscriminate the by a companys that could be called unindicted war criminals in the name of stopping them that they really shouldnt or not stop them and also looking at threequarters of what they should be added in the course of doing best their left totally unequipped with the idea is that hit them with those ideas that disturb them. I move to burbank one year ago we have a lot of nightclubs and also a lot of poverty because everything is in the same neighborhood we would go to the pawnshop in pace past people that were there from party or homeless and she was with me when she noticed did she could talk about unsaid together for a realtime view when it was age appropriate so in the future when she is not with me she will though she cant come talk to me about it because there is no future when she doesnt see people on the street doing things that are disturbing. But that is the only way that we can ever get through those years to hire the adult checkin and the dialogue we could only have a theres a culture when you see stuff that isnt quite right to talk about those grownups around you and not be worried that you would be suspended from school. And this gets to doc cartel the issue of when you try to sense a those that are age appropriate is what type of a disservice are we doing when there is all of this that is legitimately difficult and threatening and were worried if they see boobs . [laughter] so what are we really protecting . Is set our own sensibility because we are embarrassed rwanda have the conversation or are not ready by giving the schools what they need to intelligently navigate becoming adults . That is one of the things that we see censored but it is sad everywhere and that is advertising. [laughter] think how influential it is or advertisers are in serious about reaching out to young people and now with the internet they had a private channel c dont realize your kid is getting hit with these idiots and in the past it was more teachers and now we have another voice. My kid was very small she just figure out how to work tablet. She would say find meador of the explore. When it is done there is related videos she cannot read this issue would click on one is in russian it is okay then it would be the swearing remixing and then it is swearwords she said the tabloid is not showing me good dora laugh laugh there was never any trouble but one day she clicks on a related link and then theres a girl of her barbie collection and enormous detail. And she was mesmerized it was the first time in a life i had to argue with her i would take with she is watching office u2 the risen to parental filter in the world that blocks used to sponsor did toy bulgars. That my kid did not mind the swearing in was instantly mesmerized. I think itd say good time to transition into questions and because this is being recorded please raise your hand will recognize you and then wait until the microphone comes. I am also a library in a collection with negative a collector for Fiction Books and can tempted to sensor because with bill oreilly because if i knew that it was the of shit book. [laughter] but also then people check out multiple times instead of buying it. So youre taking money away. You mentioned oftentimes in terms of giving direction that it was difficult with those media skinheads. View our connecting lives in dont know maybe it is a hallmark assignment. En el think libraries take money out of our pockets for the record. I have the question above to hear i think we are here because we agreed in principle that censorship is a bad thing but we have a conversation about this and i have already learned about a couple of books that have not been aware of if they had not been challenged. Do you see any benefits because he loved the thrill of the of forbidden is there any upside to people challenging greg. I think my story is pretty instructive i think some of those kids did learned a lesson there are some that learned the healthy disrespect for authority. [laughter] about with that wider goal of the project rather compete in a marketplace of ideas to get people to read my book because it is good but then do a because they are lucky enough to live in a coastal city where they are Still Available as opposed deere rows of america when you pay and the book that will bail book. But there is a report it that came out one of the things that they talk about is the effects of these challenges where they get Death Threats especially in baseball town they would not serve them just to buy a book the and stand up for it. In those cases if you dont get National Attention and support whether it is ban or not it is a huge reaction but that discussion is always good but it would be nice to have that. Going back to the question would did publishers by . The librarians to buy that will have trouble the certain will not have the appetite and they know by the book. So it goes all the way back up the pipeline if you want to find books there on the amazon self publishing platform. My question might be more towards the of librarians but i am curious to know do you have your degrees and if you do if your education cover this topic or how you educated yourself about what to do in these situations . Yes but i think i got more education on the job because of the subject because when you get to this situation will probably e. D. Different with all of the technology what the issues are so was both of the job can. I attach it teach intellectual freedom privacy the program for librarians i do it on line and it is fascinating because theres a lot of differences from what people get in that course not every school does that but a good majority do. I was so lonely page so i never went with those professional associations are amazing on this and internationally that i used to work with i was dedicated in geneva is a force of nature with the specialized agencies with the Motion Picture association with the cadres of lawyers for Free Expression that is better organized than anybody else in the room no basis youll eat became a library to get rich tutus circulation. [laughter] the matter what you think the fed is from the public spirit who so those in the u. K. Are really good on this i thought all lot lately deere have anything specific to say about china and the censorship . I dont know. That is a totally different culture and country. I can Say Something to that as my husband is a professor in Public Administration and there is and always a communist official where he is teaching a course he will say what he will say but actually they have never done anything but a did a Chilling Effect he says saddam how to teach your so there is a lot of that type of monitoring going on. And with the internet countries like at and vietnam they are not stopping story even if prison for a long time to say somebody else will fight the fight so they are having a hard time with this access the informations so have to get props to those who are fighting the fight. There are ways in which it does get impact mostly films that the Chinese Market as a crossover into the Chinese Market to realize those john and Box Office Returns as all the studios chase down and has treated the censorship of fact for people are steering clear of production on films the other part is adding extra of footage but ghostbusters did not open in china and because of those supernatural beings to not play well in china so also with that winnertakeall market place to be a 500 million movie now making 25 million movies that changes what movies get made but there is some really good litter cheer literature even talking about chinese and that was the First Chinese translation ever to win the award. And also to real understand chinese censorship there is a book that she used to cover china for a the wall street journal one of the points she makes is a major source of chinese censorship is locking under the National Fire wall to how those people to search out of commons that our contrary to Party Doctrine that say you are in 80 editing q. Are lying in bed is forged evidence. I know you went to Elementary School with you. To put so much doubt come on those subjects makes and into a difficult area to discuss date disappear from the discourse and that makes a super effective there was a huge u. S. Military a contract that dumped their email and one of the things was the office of intelligence to let a single people run 20 Online Identities with the offshore message board but our people talk about the ideas that the air force did not like. So this this uh strategy that even our government has hit upon. I had then hearing about the digital age phenomenon and it is easy for people who are the gatekeepers to redact or in some way change the content in their really isnt offensive but also takes away the discussion i had a nice cool talk about the parts that were problematic which means it would of been altered in some way. That is really complicated where if you bought the eve book and it is on your device you could say turn the afford and then find out where it was. Writers objected to this and the basis was i wrote the book you have to read it as a road and there is a difference between free speech and compelled attention my right is a reader is to read it as i choose. It is a different matter as of thirdparty or a school lead minister everyone in your charge have to be done in this constrained way but nobody was doing that. Instead those who for whatever reason decided they would prefer the substitutions in the theory that day advance was the copyright theory that it is changing which words were displayed on your screen under behalf were a party to a Copyright Infringement that you make from the derivative work of the book is a typical legal name for this and it is crazy it is your right as the order of the book you can tear up the pages to make paper airplanes and do whatever the hell that you wanted to shore book. Wright codex it is not my book once you get it so for you to produce your own edition to change my words and pass it around is the totally different matter. Did you are right there bill probably be more this. Is a buddy that knows that they have played with the filter in edit changes your face with their realtime and said it is office asa ago to a foreign country as a sign is in another language then it appears in english so that means youll have realtime nussbaum filter to say this replaces it and that has to be okay because it is your right to decide ec by compelled attention is justice tad will negative is that the censorship. Mentioned problems with filters on school or Library Computers so have you noticed with the different publishing formats does that change how is it is effective . So to learn about what is opaque or trade secrets or what makes it a crime when it comes to figure out which words are what was this yet another reason was that theyd tell you we were out there blocking in telling the kids where to find the porn steven c. Why that is not a great approach if your goal is to stop them so for all of those reasons we know very little about what they do it is that black box nobody ever says gino what would make this better . Not telling anybody how works as the swedish danish National Firewall was published with wikileaks there was 975 because it is the unaccountable buckets they can shove anything he worked for the state did not like and nobody would ever stop them refine doubt that they had done it so giving advice on suicide and regular porn and they let you gamble and what ever how to get on the dark night stuff that was never banned by a statute that was way beyond their reach into was a big problem and this keeps coming up that was coming up with facebook there is not dead with their room big enough to make those calls we dont have a great answer but it cannot be we will block 1 of 1 billion because that is bigger than the Biggest Library we have ever made. Thanks to the panel and all of you for your questions and for coming here tonight. [applause] [inaudible conat