Transcripts For CSPAN2 Banking CEOs Testify On Regulations And Oversight - Part 2 20220926

In the Banking Industry. This portion of the hearing is one hour and 25 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] the committee will come to order. The gentleman from missouri mr. Luetkemeyer is now recognize for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Welcome back to our witnesses. I would like to focus on a larger issue today that the facts ever u. S. Consumer and consumes all over the world, which is heavy investment in volatile and unfriendly countries such as russia and china. Ms. Frazier, mr. Dimon, after moynihan each either banks have significant investment in russia which you drew down after putins invasion of ukraine. While american sanctioned what impetus for those actions it should be said you did the right thing by shrinking or assets there. We learned to make important lessons. Number one, there was a largenc risk investing in volatile nations with dictatorial governments. And a vertigo investments place difficult role in supporting those nations economies. In recent months chinas continued to threaten our ally taiwan withme military exercises and violent rhetoric. Should the ccp follow through on his threat to invade taiwan, are your banks prepare to pull your investments out of china . Mr. Moynihan, do you want to start first . Sure. I think we will follow government guidance which has been for decades to work with china, and if they change of position we want we wily change as we did infi russia. Ms. Frazier . Yes, we would do likewise. We follow the government guidance on the trip we very much hope it doesnt happen. Mr. Dimon . We would absolutely salute and follow whatever the American Government said, which as you all, what you want us to do. I appreciate willingness of all u. S. Law and your banks statements in decisions that go along come well beyond but, but you may decision to go well beyond u. S. Law and enter the realm of moral judgments. For example, in 2018 city and bank of america announced lending restrictions to certain gun manufactures and retailers. Jpmorgan announced it will not fund private prisons. None of these decisions remain because of a a law passed by congress. Mr. Dimon, with an invasion of anan american ally be enough to make you stop doing business with china . If invasion of an american allyh would be enough for jp morgan to make the moral to commit to stop doing business with the Chinese Government party . We would have to decide when that happens. Ith the Chinese Communist party . We would have to decide when the happens. You are not going to commit to pulling us out of china if they invade taiwan . Is what you just said . The first thing i would do is call the American Government and ask for guidance. Thats what i would do. That is what they would expect me to do. Mr. Moynihan and miss fraser . Same, in terms of decision. But we always look at clients and risk and effect we would find it before the russia situation took place in ukraine, that we made a just missed or escalated all the time. In every country is volatile, regardless of their it would be driven by the government, and occasional we are talking about, there will be driven by government rules and regulations and laws in congress. Miss fraser . Similar to both mr. Dimon, and mr. Moynihan, my first colby the u. S. Government to understand what they would be expecting and wanting us to do. Suppose the government said it was up to you to make your own decision. It is a business decision on your part. What would you say . It is highly likely that we would have an extremely reduced presence, if any at all, and if the business was left up to you, you would pull out, probably . Or reduce some assets . It is a hypothetical question, but it is highly likely that we would have a reduced presence. Each of your banks have Public Statements pledging commitment to supporting human rights around the globe. According to the state for 2020 report, genocide and crimes against humanity occurred in china last year. Those crimes include arbitrary and unlawful killing by the government, imprisonment, forced sterilization, rape and torture of a large number of those mr. Moynihan, do you condemn the Chinese Communist party for those who are blacks that they committed . We look at any client would do business with to their operations in any matter, and we make that decision. So the government all is not the decision in terms of who we do business within china, it is the client would your be . That the question, is when we look at what we do in the countrys individual clients, it is not a theoretical concept. So we look at that client, if their clients mr. Moynihan, with all due respect, the government of chinas the communist party. The comings party is the government of china. If you are doing business in that country, you are doing it willingly with respect to them allowing you to be there. And you are doing under their laws. Which last time you are here, one of youth reaction made that comment. So if they are committing these atrocities, are you okay with that . Are you willing to continue to do business with people falling to sign a process . Whatever you say in the statements, that is a bad deal. We do not do business with companies that we believe are doing atrocities. Or Something Like that. I think your question thats my point. Miss frazier . We obviously take any accusations of human rights abuses very very seriously. Like mr. Moynihan, we cannot win the activities with companies that are very involved in forced labor but its okay to do business with the government . We do business with the government. Even though they commit those atrocities . Thank, you i yield back. The gentleman from colorado, mr. Promote, who is also the on Financial Institutions is now recognized thanks madam chair, minor gonna be a little simpler than that. Mr. Moynihan, think of america has some of the best economists in the world working for you. I had the chance to meet with a couple of them. I guess i am coming up things a little differently than has been expressed by my republican colleagues, and some of you. Looking at the last few months, from may on, prices have been steady or dropped. University of michigan anticipates prices to drop over the course of the next year. So in conversations with your economists, what do they predict . What do they think is going to happen . Archivists have 2022 is a positive gdp. Negative for the Fourth Quarter of this year. Negative for the First Quarter of next year. And negative for the Second Quarter of next year. And then moving positive, and ending up in a 2 you through your First Quarter as a go through. Thats the yes i would say. I dealt with at the beginning of covid, i dont know if you recall your analysis. Your expecting covid due to the economy if we did nothing, if we just held steady, everything, when we didnt do ppp, we didnt do unemployment, we didnt do any of that. We just, said well, were gonna have trouble. Thank goodness for my point of view, we did a lot to keep the economy moving. Obviously there is a year over year increase in prices, but if we go forward on an annualized basis, just based on august, its 1. 2 for the next year. And if you look at the whole summer, it is less than that. So what i am worried about is an overreaction from the Federal Reserve, and the last time we saw him increase Interest Rates like this was back in the 80s and early 90s. And i can tell, you colorado got clobbered. I wasnt market just stopped, as did everything else. So mr. Demchak, im gonna turn to you. Because they had a pretty large subsidiary called a kiss accompany back in those days. I dont know if youre familiar with it. But it suffered a lot of foreclosures back in the 80s and 90s. As dates some predecessors to u. S. Bank, certainly jpmorgan city had the same some issues. What did you see . What did your bank see on the horizon in terms of foreclosures . If mr. Dimon is correct and we get hit hard because of ukraine into this into that, i think most of what we are facing is supply changes, threatens caused by covid, and thats what weve seen some prices go up. Are as your bank prepares, are you prepared, to handle a lot of foreclosures of the bottom falls out and there is a potential problem here . Thank you for the question. I would suggest i think inflation is going to be a little bit stickier than we would like. I think as a result of that Interest Rates are going to be a little bit higher than we would like for longer, then we would like. The impact of that on housing is clearly already felt and that creation of new homes in the sale of homes impacts of that an existing homeowners in all of my communities and their inability to make payments absorbing the greater percentage of their income is a real issue. We work with the government funded programs, state funded programs, p and c funded programs to make sure we stay in their homes. Have you seen delinquency rise . We have not. Not at this. Point of any of the banks seen delinquency rises on home mortgages . Mr. Dimon and i disagreed over the years about the number of capital that should be repaid. On the bank of a predecessor bank he was operating on an mou during these years when the fed took the Interest Rate up dramatically, back in the 80s and early 90s. Mr. Dimon, if you get your worstcase scenario that we outlined, is jpmorgan capitalized to take such an economy . Absolutely. Everybody else feel you are well capitalized . Yes. Wells fargo . Yes. Even if mr. Dimon worst prediction comes true . I mean he wasnt saying it is a production, just naming a possibility. I think the four diamonds productions. Think of america . Yes. Not to take our word for. Look at the stress test for ten years in a row. Theyve been stressed testing under other scenarios, worse when it has occurred. Highest realistic prices, highest unemployment, highest stock market. Look at the result. Turn back to the chair. Thank you. The gentleman from texas, mr. Williams, my now recognized for five. Minutes thank you mrs. Sharon thank you average being here today. Appreciate it. A new merchant category is approved for a gun and ammunition sellers. My republican colleagues and i have expressed concerns that this will make it easier to track expose and limit the Constitutional Rights of millions of lawabiding gun owners. Progressives are already hearing that this will be a huge step forward and monitoring suspicious gun purchases. Nevertheless they claim have been dragged into the political arena. And it reads, we cannot believe that private companies should service moral arbitrators. Asking private companies to decide what legal products or services can and cannot be bought, and from what story gets sets a dangerous precedent. Further, it could be an invasion of privacy for banks and Payment Networks to know each for most personally trusting habits. We said is firmly against this. So even though i think the Critical Committee should disregard the new code i do agree with the Statement Released by visa. The problem with these new classification codes is a determining what is suspicious is a subjective exercise and anyone who is against the rights of gun owners will want your institutions to fly every single transaction with the gun and cc to law enforcement. So before i continue to quickly get used anointed each of you from two things. First, if you agree with implemented this new mcc for guns and seconddegree with pieces Public Statement. We can start with you, mister scharf. Please repeat the public. Statement read the Public Statement that i just read . Yes, could you repeated. Well, i can read it but it will cut into our time. Just as they dont seem to be political business. And they want to get out of it. So, joins your question, we dont set the marching category codes. So the ico association sets them and we are instructed to follow so what we think is not really relevant at this point. Mr. Rogers . Certainly follow the rules set on a Credit Card Company and intermediaries. What well also look at all for the privacy of our clients. Do you agree with lisas Public Statement . We will protect the privacy of our clients according to the law. Mr. Moynihan . As my two colleagues have said, the rules of the association and of the is not our doing we just have to implement them but well believe in the privacy of our Customer Data and we felt that true for many years. Im not sure i agree with lisas public stream is all but it is their statement. Im not sure i dont agree with. And i just dont really reflect on other peoples statements. Miss fraser . Similar to mr. Moynihan, i can only speak for my own bank. We cannot use for sale farms for individual car holders. You said you do . Not we do not intend to limit the use of firearms borrowing individual cardholders as a result of the coat. Mr. Dimon . I actually dont know what they use it for and we do not want to be in the business of telling american citizens what they can do with their money. We understand your concerns over the issue. Okay. Thanks. Next. Mr. Demchak, i nothing new to add. I think everybody is covered it. Okay. Consistent. We will abide by the rules and protect the privacy of customers. Miss fraser, what are the criteria that citibank well use if they find suspicious Transactions Associated with this new code . We will follow the regulatory requirements in terms of the filing sars as we always do but is first blush looking at this we do not think it will be a factor in filing a mr. Moynihan, on a similar note how well bank of america determine customer s are filing or is it something but he recently came into money . Again, as my colleague just said, if they buy or purchase a gun at a shop, the fact they purchase it has nothing to do with the sorrow file. My last question, real quick. When i talk to Business Owners in texas where i am from there does not seem to be any debate that we are in a recession. And they are concerned about it. I would like with this question. Mr. Dimon, you said the summer that there was a high probability of a recession and much worse. Can you describe an economic hurricane that we have seen if you think we can avoid further economic damage . The American Economy has consumer set by high rates circulation and more which weve never had before. They are meeting as we speak and they are meeting for the next six or nine months. We do not know like. You only. Back thank you the gentleman from connecticut. Science is also the chair of the subcommittee on National International development and Monetary Policy which is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chair and thank you all for being here. Iverson the room in the First Quarter 2009 when the economy was contracting at a rate of 10 . I really did wear the number here institutions were not going to survive a week. We came a long way. Mr. , david thank you for acknowledging i think you said credit where credit is due the doddfrank was a big part of that. I was a short at the time by people in my seat of the aisle that doddfrank would crumble like a sandcastle in a hurricane. I was assured my friends on the other sides of the aisle it would eliminate the bank and none of those things proved anywhere close to being correct. Credit workers do we got through the stress just in the last few years because of dot frankly also because of those institutions that you run. Thank you for that not just not for creating systemic problems with actually getting the ppp which were so important to so many businesses in my district. I say all of that just because i want to focus on risk. And they have the three questions of risk about 70 plus of the market has migrated of a banking environment. With a lot less visibility. Take a minute to talk about whether we should be focused on that risk. Mr. Moynihan, i would ask in a minute or so about whether there are nonobvious risks that mister dimon has not covered. And miss fraser, im gonna close on you because of your global footprint, what risks do we have out there that women have jurisdiction. Over whether asia or europe, could be transmitted to our system here . Mr. Dimon, the mobilization. Market i would not call it systemic. It is riskier because companies do not advance funds during a crisis. We could. We do need to reform and for the sake of the industry, and we could get mortgages and all times. Mr. , moynihan, what are the risk for not thinking about . Now what are the bullets were not seeing where . Now are you talking about mark businesses . Generally. Incidents are the banking. Second as i worry just as much of what is happening on the outside of the making second of what is happening inside. When you think about economy where it goes to create those versus and leverage, and honestly there is more of that side of the Banking System and inside, that is something that i think we know there should be carefully watching now, in terms of funds, private lending funds, private lending funds have leverage in. Them high leverage multiples. Our industry, because of the examination practices and frankly the way the companies are run, is not participated in. So thats what i would say a risk is. But its always good to move about the economy and demand dusky was something a little more specific. When we talk about private lending friends were doing was cfos or the what would be focused . On all of them. The amount of private tether credit not only in mortgage but every single class insider outside the industry. If you look at where lovers multiples individual deals ardent have been done, there are multiple regulatory youve also this point that you feel youre institutions inadequate the capitalize or perhaps over capitalize. So are you saying that there are private non banks that are under capitalized relative to yes. But they will have net asset values and other words their liabilities or interested in that fund market to market. So you will have that same kind of stress. But liquidating those companies where people who do not work the same way as the system works for the company could cause more damage than if we built reserves, worked out companies. Thats what we have done for hundreds of years. Other people do not have the staff to do that. Therefore they just sell them and the greater process can cause more ongoing damage the economy. Thank you. Miss, razor let me close with you again. We have jurisdiction over some, stuff but not over lots of stuff. What do we need to be wary of internationally . When we look internationally i think what has happening from the pandemic and the war as it has highlighted a lot of fragility in the Global Economy. Therefore we have to increase our concern around energy security. Food security. Cybersecurity. Which will not necessarily all of an impact in the u. S. That could spill how spillover effects. For, example in europe, supply shocks in the Energy Market they are facing could well be a factor affecting the u. S. Economy. Next year. That is demand slows, they enter a highly likely recession. So the inter dependencies and these facilities are going to be the pieces we have to keep an eye on. So, connect that for. Me you identified energy and food. What is the mechanism of transmission . I get the economy doesnt have much slow, down boy is the mechanism of transmission which Global Energy and food markets actually create a potential problem for you . It could result, and if there is a Material Energy shaka could continuing. Europe you could see Industrial Production shutting down this winter. You could see people who are cold, and that kind of different discontent from the population, which could then translate into lower demand. And there are lower damage for American Goods and services in impacts into the u. S. Economy. That is where the main mechanism would come through. Thank you. My time is expired. Thank you madam chair. Thank you very much, gentleman from arkansas is now recognized for governments. Thank you madam chair and thank you for all those who are taking away from your day job anything. All of you to come for a few minutes ago, that was kind of you madam chair. If you have a couple water into crack or maybe to go with. Good discussion, i thought mr. Lucas racy has gotten quite well in climate stress testing, assault. Or mr. , barr knew vice chair at the fed said this was a priority. And some of your complying with that in, europe or not, mrs. Frazier. Are you complying with a, quote, climate stress test over your interactions in europe . We have had to conduct those in compliance with a legal requirements. What do you think that cost the company pretax to do that . I would have to get back to a number if you, am i responding writing. On that and you passed a stress test of the fed imposed, in the analysis of sharp to clients in sharp failures and performing assets. If you look at those performing assets, and take climate into account when you make a loan to build a tower on miami beach. Mr. Moynihan, did you not do that . We decided to stress test to take into account the project hub or the person. Of course. Mr. Casten has ability is introduced here for the majority, hr 35 71. That would require a climate stress test and would add Capital Requirements to anyone who feels that stress test based on a bunch of scientific experts would you like to answer that question . I would be happy to call on miss fraser, again, do you like that idea . The challenge with that idea the moment as we just do not have the data. These proposals are not comparable within the industry are between the industry. Is that a fair statement . When we read the financial test, the test scores . Record shows they are not. The european gdp are privacy, rolls is that, crack back in europes involvement in and you are a big bank in california so you comply with californias privacy, long . Right we, have to. Obviously and you do a magnificent drop, there im. Sure do you think a federal preemption in the federal privacy law we, back a, the Financial Services with the secretary general . I i think the Financial Service industry has had 30 years of privacy regulation and other issues of it. That you are pretty good job of examining on, it have an ongoing examination process. I think that frankly being exempted from some of those rules because of that. So is pretty powerful for privacy . Yes sir. In the next we can work on energy in congress. Much on the same page in terms of privacy. In wells fargo he made some good comments about the mortgage backing and comments today that mortgage thinking should be in the not being sucker. Do you think regulation had anything to do with that . Congressman, i did say that there is a difference between the way that banks and not banks are regulated. And there is no question that that degree of regulation will impact your cross base and what you want to do inside your company. Banks and Bank Holding Companies could not do Mortgage Servicing rights, was that a bad provision . Congressman, i am not aware of that provision. It caused all of you to divest your Mortgage Service and portfolios even though you are the largest 1 to 4 family of more cylinders in the country. So you had a natural head, but after the financial crisis all of you are asked to lower that, so you would not be charged the capitol surcharge on that. Was not a good idea, and you also want to respond to that . Ill just keep going. We still have a large Mortgage Servicing asset. You cant. Growth Capital Requirements are very specific on it. But it is up to us to determine how much of our capital we choose to put into that versus something else. All right. Thank you. Mr. Damon the fed has a dual mandate and price ability on the growth of the economy. We have had a proposal about the majority here, to add equity to the feds mandate. The defense focus on its price stability mandate . In my opinion, yes. And mr. Counselor at u. S. Bank, can you write a memo persuasively that you should have a look, well or you think it is not necessary for a bank . We have a living will and a resolution planned as have been reviewed by the last ten years. Do you think the fed should leave it at that or impose Something Different . I think its been successful, we have a very simple operation. 99 of our bank is within the holding company. Thank you very much, i yield back, madam chair. Thank you. The gentleman from illinois, mr. Foster, who is also the chair of the task force on artificial intelligence, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank, you madam chair. I would like to just touch briefly again on regulatory capital levels. Im amazed at how consistent your industry is. When you come to, us its almost always with an elaborate set of logic to try to convince us that you should be allowed to lever out more. Its interesting because, youve probably all been forced to learn about the molani miller theory which says its independent of capital structure and particularly independent of leverage. Why is it that you are always demanding higher levels of leverage . I think part of the answer was well analyzed at the end of the financial crisis. That you all benefit from having the federal government and the federal taxpayer as the insurer of last resort. If under an extreme disaster, one of the cities you do business with, if it gets nuked you all be insolvent and will be buildup by the government thats okay. The question is, how far out on the tail should the government assume that risk . The game youll always be an is trying to allow you to lever up and expose the task paired to that risk. Our job will always be to push back against that and establish enough levels of regulatory capital that its very unlikely that the taxpayer will be called upon to do that. Just a quick question, do any of you believe that the higher capital regulatory levels of doddfrank have prevented you from having an extraordinarily profitable decade . Let the record show that no one has indicated such, so i think thats a very significant conclusion from the old debate here. I like to spend some time talking about digital i. D. And know your customer requirements. Mr. Demchak spoke eloquently about the difficulties of dealing with financial fraud, and a lot of that is identity fraud. Mr. Moynihan had a very unpleasant experience with a failure of the federal government or state governments to have any kind of secure, reliable way of authenticating that you are who you say you are online. Exposing you to very high levels of fraud and having to do something quick and dirty and unfortunate in trying to fix that. This experience was not shared in countries where they had a secure way of, secure and reliable, way of proving you are who you say we are online. The eu, probably most of you do business internationally, youre probably aware the eu has a very comprehensive roadmap for a secure digital i. D. That would allow you, if you want to open a bank account, you walk into a branch and you get yourself. You say, okay, get your passport or whatever it is, real id compliant drivers license and its in the u. S. Thats on yourself own. Convince yourself and that its really even someone hasnt stolen yourself phone. With a pretty quick interaction, you can have a very secure way of proving that you are a single, legally traceable person. There is a roadmap that has actually been rolled out by a number of states. Ironically, the technical standards for those were all invented at the United States there are countries that you do business in like korea where this is a reality today. That you can prove, he has modern technology, is yourself owed, essentially like a security dongle. What is your stance on this . What is the difference you see in the Different Countries in which you operate . Some of which have secured digital i. D. , some of which are moving toward it. And what is your feeling on where the United States should be going on this . Mr. Demchak, well start with you. Thank you for the question and the thought that you have clearly put into this. It is a big problem in our country, and i think we should move towards a digital i. D. Sunday but the Banking Industry is actually working towards today with a product called offense to fire. Where, once you authenticate yourself with one bag, we can share that i. D. With any other service you might want to use electronically. We have to get this sorted. Fraud is a massive problem and our methods and historical ways of dealing with this arent working. That is very noble approach to deal with a serious problem. But i think there is, ultimately, a real government function in issuing that authentication. And we have that in the real i. D. , we have that for physical i. D. There are standards that are being deployed in the individual states. I just like to end with a shout out to the better Digital Identity, improving Digital Identity act, that we have now moving in both the house and the senate. He was marked up in og are. Senators luminous and gillibrand are behind it. We can get this behind the finish line, at least on the government level, we will hopefully have something to avoid the nightmare that mr. Moynihans bank went through. At least have the government have a way for us to do those to authenticate themselves. Thank, you i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman from texas, mr. Sessions, is now recognized for five minutes. Madam chairman, thank you very much. To the panel thats in front of us, thank you for taking time to be here. Mr. Dimon, good to see you again. The opportunity that i think you have today as shown some light about how complex your businesses are. The varying attacks against you, the things that have happened to our country economically, the changes that are going on. Your ability to work with industry and others who are needing capital, needing reassurance from you. You are employees who, during the pandemic, did not close down their chance to go to work. Maybe some of you had different destruct restrictions based upon where you lived. But your blaze went to work, people kept the business running. There was not a run on the bank, there was thoughtfulness that went on by each of you in your own way. The trillions of dollars that flowed through systems that you had to take and understand who your customers were and are. We are going through instances of monetary and fiscal policy changes to. We are watching with great cautiousness about what is going to happen next but. I want to take this time and tell you that im impressed, im glad weve got big banks. Im glad weve got stable people. Im glad we have professionals that get up and go to work, take care of the Free Enterprise system, take care of Large Companies and small companies. Im from waco, texas. Many of you are in waco, texas. It is now a destination of choice where people are moving or even opening up wealth offices there, because people with money are moving their. But i want to thank you, because we need to hear from you as we are hearing today. There is some specific, questions mr. Foster had questions, others do. But we really look to you to be that capitalist leaders of our country. We look to you to stand for america, and i know, certainly citi and others have done business in china for decades. You see things, you see a bigger viewpoint than we do. So, i want, when you get in your car and leave today, the like there are people that respect to you. People that know you are in a tough place. People that know you are having trouble getting people to not just come to work but to learn the business. I appreciate you. I appreciate the hard work that you do. I know that what you do is pick dad and looked at in different ways and second guessed. Mr. Dimon, i know youve been the object of some challenges. And each of you have in your own way. But please know that we need you. We should not run you out of business, we should not be onerous on what we do to you. We should give you the latitude. You showing up today, to me is an example of what kind of professionals you are. What kind of men and women and the organizations you represent, that represent you. That will be there tomorrow, that to care about the challenges. So, we need to hear from you again. I hope youll come back next year. And instead of putting you on the witness side, youll put us on the witness side by youll really tell us. Heres the way we see the world and this is where we need to be the leading edge continued supporter of the dollar. Here is the things we need to hear from you. So, i appreciate each of you, i want to thank the gentlewoman, the chairwoman of our committee. I want to thank the gentleman from arkansas for sitting in. When you go back today and i want you to know that we need you. That you are the basis of how our nation can operate and that we have so many other people in the Financial Services industry that are there because we need them to. So, no questions, but a big thank you. I hope you will go back and tell your employees that you appreciate them just like i do my employees at a time when America Needs them the most. I yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you much. I think the elderly gentlemen for his participation. The gentlewoman from iowa, miss axne, also the vice chair of the committee on site has, ing community and development and insurance. Shes now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Guaranteed will be what asking some questions here. So, get ready. Appreciate your being, here of course its nice to see you. But mr. Scharf, you know im going to be concentrating on you today. As you are here, what, just about march of last year i believe. That youve been on that role for a period of time, so its good here will be able to have a good conversation here. I want to focus on the 13,000 wells fargo employees in our district. We spoke here last year, as you mentioned, he said youre going to make those folks a priority. We talked a little bit about some of the organizational structural pieces youre gonna put in place. The ways you are going to engage employees, and i was very excited to hear about those. But this news is very disconcerting, at this time. There have been nine rounds of layoffs, notices, to more than 350 i wins since april. To what i understand, that is due to a slow mortgage industry. Is that correct . I believe that is correct, congresswoman, thank you. Thank you. Bloomberg reported wells fargo is planning a major retreat from its Mortgage Business. I dont like this where. Its those Mortgage Operations are one of the primary businesses in iowa. Can you confirm whether that story is accurate . And can you discuss what will happen with the 13,000 high winds that wells employs if you shrink Mortgage Operations . Congresswoman, first of all, as weve discussed, iowa and des moines specifically its a very important occasion for us. It has been for a long time. And i see that continuing to be the case for a long time to come. I dont see that changing. We do operate within businesses that are susceptible to market conditions. Volumes go up and volumes go down. The changes that weve seen in the Mortgage Business are the most significant changes weve seen in the shortest amount of time, given the movement rates. We, like all other mortgage companies, have had to take a look at our own infrastructure and ensure that it is sized properly. The first thing we do is we try to figure out, are there other roles inside the company that impacted employees can play . I know that we have moved is ignorant number of employees from one division to another, as weve done through these changes in the Mortgage Business. The other thing i should point out is, des moines began, i shouldnt say began, when we acquired a company and des moines way back it was a Mortgage Business. For quite a number of years, the only thing we had in des moines was mortgage. Thats not true today. We have pieces, large parts of the company, that reside there. So, if you live there and you want a role elsewhere, its quite likely that you will be able to stay in des moines and play that other role. Thats good to hear, you still have an answer to the question. Can you confirm whether that is accurate, that you will be seeing a major retreat from the Mortgage Business . Congresswoman, we have yes or no . Is it accurate . I dont know how to define a major retreat. Its bloomberg cracked when they said youre planning a major retreat out of the Mortgage Business . This is a really easy question. No, its congresswoman yes or no . The Mortgage Market is significantly lower than it was. Im not getting an answer. What i did think i heard from you is, with the 13,000 high winds, if i heard you correctly, you will do everything in your possible power to find another job for them within the other parts of wells fargo that are located in iowa. Is that correct . Congresswoman, that is something that we do across the whole country. Not just within iowa. Okay, were going to have to follow up on this. So not getting a straight answer out whats going to happen to the tons of people in our district that you wont answer this question about, whats happening. What i dont want to see is all of a sudden we wake up and the des moines register, i have 1000 people lining up to make sure that they can get unemployment. The other thing i want to make sure we do is address tsa a, theres going to be any conversation about moving jobs out of this country. Okay . We will be in touch with you about that. Next, i want to move on a bit. This was good to hear. I thought some story suggesting wells would cover travel expenses for employees seeking abortion care. Now, the Iowa Governor reynolds is attempting to push her banter that she pushed through last time and was shot down. She will now, because of roe v. Wade. Can you confirm as well as covering those expenses and how that will work for the workers . Congresswoman, we have changed our plans so that abortion is consistent with other health care options. So that we will pay for the expenses of someone to cross state lines to get a legal procedure. Weve not worked out specifically, to my knowledge, exactly how that works, we can certainly share that with you. Thank you. One last question, can you clarify for commitment to remaining neutral and not interfering with employees on unionizing will be upheld . You want me to answer that . Time is up. Gentleladys time has expired. Will he be answer able to answer that, madam chair . We have to continue with the rules that we have used all day. Thank, you all follow up on that. I wish for him to get back to you with an answer to your question. The gentleman from georgia, mr. Im loudermilk, is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, thank you all for being here. I know youve been anticipating and looking forward to the state for quite awhile. We do thank you for taking time to be here. One of the issues that is paramount to me, and i think it is to a lot of people, cybersecurity. Especially as we move more into a digital age, it becomes more and more imperative that we protect data. Especially data of citizens, your customers. It came from an intelligence background of the military, where i had a very high security clearance. We had one principle that we lived by, which is the best if you dont need data, dont keep it. Because you only have to protect what you have. So, if you dont absolutely need information, then you are to dispose of it. Part of my concern is the amount of data that you are required not only to keep but the pass on to the federal government. Which, from what we have learned, becomes the weak link in the cybersecurity protection chain. That is a discussion for another day. Whether its provisions of the bsa and cta and sars. The massive amount of data that is passed along that you are required to give to the federal government, their majority of it is never looked at, that becomes a cybersecurity issue. That the last several hearings that weve had with you and the ceos of large banks, ive been one of the few members, if not the only, to bring up cybersecurity. The reason i bring this up is not just my interest, but im hearing from you that that is one of your top issues and concerns. Mr. Cecere, can you give us an update on cybersecurity threats in the Banking Industry that you are facing . And maybe some things youre doing to address those. Certainly, representative. I agree that cyber is one of the significant risks that we are all facing. Ill also say that were also working very well together. If we see a node attacking one of, us we make sure we communicate with each other to make sure were shutting it down as quickly as possible. I know that weve, all including u. S. Bank, made significant investments in cybersecurity. But from a personnel standpoint as well as an investment standpoint. Weve doubled the staff in the last few years within our cyber group as well as our investment and spend. The reason for that is because of such a significant risk. I think it requires coordination among the banks, regulators and the government. And we are working hard on it. Okay, thank you. Mr. Rogers, i know that this is an area of concern for truist, and i may interject that that is the name of the home park of the world series atlanta braves. But, that aside, i know that cybersecurity is a serious concern for truist as well. Can you discuss the threats that you are seeing, and what truist is doing . Thank you for your focus on this, representative. I can add now playoff bound atlanta braves, just add to that distinction. It has been a big focus and it was one of the reasons we merged, was to create additional capacity to invest in things that are relevant for our clients, relevant for our communities. Also in the protection of the important data that we preserve for our clients. We have multiple thresholds that we analyze every day, related to cyber. We hire third parties to come in and test and actually try to invade us at any particular time and test our particular forces. We participated all the industry things, including horizontal refused by our regulators who are constantly looking at where we are relative to cyber. So, even the capability to bring in talent and capacity that has exceeded what we could do before the merger. , so cyber is clearly a focus for us and one of the region reasons we merged was to create a stronger shield for our clients. Thank you on that. While ive got you, one of the things that republicans have been working on and were currently accepting feedback on, a draft bill that would finally establish a National Consumer data privacy standard. We have to identify, positively, what data belongs to the consumer. What data belongs to the financial institution, et cetera. And protect that. Mr. Rogers, can you discuss why National Data privacy standards would provide consumers with clarity about who owns their data as well as those privacy issues . Representative, im not familiar exactly with all the intricacies of that particular bill, but the important part of data being owned by the client is critical. Thats how we approach data, its the clients data, not ours. Its our duty to protect the clients data. Thank, you madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentlewoman from ohio, mrs. Beatty, it is also the chair of the subcommittee on diversity and inclusion, is now recognized for five minutes. First of all, let me say thank you, madam chair. Not only for this Committee Hearing but for interesting in me to chair the diversity and inclusion subcommittee. Let me say thank you to all of the witnesses, faces that i know. For the record, my comments and questions are not divisive nor are they a part of any political elections coming up. I can clearly say that because anyone who has followed me, met with me or known me, using your words, i find myself to be the guardian of doddfrank. Especially section 3 42, as well as diversity and inclusion, mdi, especially coupled with protegee banks, equity for those who are unbanked, racial disparity, the wealth gap, narrowing it. Looking at cra and external contracts with asset managers, lawyers, et cetera. With that said, it was reported in april of 2022 by the g. A. O. That there are some seven billion u. S. Households that dont have bank accounts. They gave three primary reasons, anyone know with those three are . Let me share it with you. People believe that they dont have enough money. People believe that the fees are to excessive or complicated or they dont know how to access it. But number three is trust, lack of trust. Oftentimes, that is because people dont to see people who look like them or their communities. So, that supports what i believe in. Let me tell you some good news. Every one of you sitting here has met with me. On june 16th, i had the opportunity to spend more than an hour with every one of you. In addition to that, many of you, as we said that yesterday, brought staff, walk me through your changes. So im going to apply to you for that. Let me tell you why. But for this chairwoman pushing the envelope, maybe having subpoena power, but making sure that she was consistent. If were going to talk about justice, if were going to talk about democracy and fairness, then we cant get to all the other things. Whether its intelligence, whether its cybersecurity. If you dont reflect the people that put all those dollars into your bank. Buying homes, everything that they are doing. It comes back to what i believe in and what i stand for. You have moved the needle, and that is what i asked you to do. You socked before that. Many still have a lot of work to do. But im going to give you credit. Because i really dont believe, but for this committee, you would have been in here. I really dont believe you would have been as serious and intentional. Not just the window dressing that youve done for years, not impressing us was saying go hire people, then you go higher 40 or 50 people. And none of those people report to you. None of those people have an opportunity to go into the boardroom. But now, we are moving the needle. Dont get really excited, we have a lot more work to do. But i do believe in saying and rewarding people who are moving the needle because thats what i asked you to do. Now, it gets much tougher as we go along. Because once you move the needle, im a clinical psychologist by trade, once you move the needle it means i should be able to look at your board and see the same type of diversity. Congressman green asked you about the future, and that was really good. But i want to talk about the president. How many people have someone who would represent diversity that reports to you . We didnt have that, congresswoman waters, before you establish this committee. How many of you have taken a d and hire someone into your board of Trustees Room and did a report on dni . We did not have that before this committee. So, if you could move the needle now, part two, which starts tomorrow, is im going to give you a bigger needle to move. But i want to say thank you for being here. And im going to tell you a bit of a tidbit. We arent just beating up on you and asking you to do these good things, you are making america better. It means you could do much more. Weve done the same things to asset managers. Yesterday, we brought insurance, the largest insurance Investment Companies in the firm. They did not do so well. So, were going to use you as a benchmark. Now, we set the needle higher. I want to know how many people are going to make a commitment to come back, to continue to do this, class thank you very much. The gentleman from West Virginia Mister Mooney is now recognized for five minutes thank you madam chair. Despite its Mission Resilience that this activist excessively pressures the International Organization for standardization and Major Credit Card Companies to adopt a new merchant category y code for firearm retailers which they say can be used to flag lawful gun purchases and target lawabiding citizens, merchant category codes or mcc are typically used to identify purchase for the goods and services they provide. West virginia the state im blessed to represent is one of the most pro Second Amendment stays in the country. Nearly 60 percent of West Virginias have firearms in their homes. And frankly its why its one of the safest states in the country as guns actually protect and savelives despite what this left nesays about. I would say tourist Bank Services 650,000 w. Virginians. Theres been talk of using this data to flag what they call suspicious purchases. To me it seems like a straightforward way to target gun owners without helping prevent client crime. In fact the opposite is true. The more people who avail themselves of the Second Amendment the less crimes you have. Ctwhat constitutes a suspicious transaction and what Additional Information does this new code e really provide for you to make that determination . As we discussed earlier this is a developing area. All the rules that are partof this system , but as today we will also protect the law, protect the rights of our consumers. I cant what will be required in terms of reporting but that wont be something we will do on a voluntary basis. Thank you for that response. My constituents now may consider purchasing firearms with cash instead of a credit card out of fear the federal government might do with their data so who decides which merchants fall under emerging category code and does truest bank plan to recruit businesses and past purchases that may now most closely fall under the new merchant category code . We dont control the merchant codesbecause its not a decision r that truist banks. In closing i want to say atnever before have we seen an administration weapon eyes financial regulators and fresher lenders to push its agenda like weve seen with the Biden Administration. I feel this is one step closer to a backdoor gun registry. Banks and corporations must resist this politicalpressure. The best way we can help our constituents is competition, freemarket competition between your banks, small banks, thats the way you get Better Service for all. We have to make a choice in this country. You have a choice between this country, some are pushing socialism and what socialist countries you like russia is the invade other countries because the economy is a total disaster so socialism does not work. They tried to gobble up other countries. We have to make a choice between free markets for socialism. There are those pushing socialism and it failed everywhere and try. I think our role as americans to be free markets, reject socialism, reject government control of people, let people be free to make their own choices so thank you for your participation and ideals back. The gentleman, Mister Lawson is now recognized for five minutes. Mister lawson, please unmute. Im checking, madam chair, can you hear me . La yes, we can hear you. Thank you very much madam chair and i would like to again as everyone else welcome all you individuals to our committee today. My first question is to the whole panel. For the us to be strong economically and to compete globally we need strong us Financial Systems. When you compare us banks to the rest of the world you as an International Financial reporting standards, the largest four banks are all chinese and were working around the globe to expand their influence. What are some of the most significant challenges us banks face when trying to compete with the banks around the ouglobe and thats to the whole panel. Mister lawson, are you addressing that to one of our witnesses . Housing into the whole panel. As we said earlier, the nearterm competitiveness of the chinese Banking System is an issue but the longer term competitiveness is the real issue. Their institutions are top four in the world. They leave aside economic issues, they make substantial amounts of money and are developing techniques to compete on a deworldwide basis in particular the multinational base of the world outside the country. Omso i think it is something to be concerned about and frankly they can operate in the us in the correct rule set and can acquire any of us without much problem in terms of financial resources. If anyone else would like to comment on that before i goto another question. Go ahead. Thank you very much for the question congressman. I would add when our banks support many of us are supporting the american multinationals and their competitiveness and scale masses in supporting these countries and they also result in jobs in america and the economy here so for that not to the operating on american rails could be problematic in terms of safety, security, cyber, privacy and many of the themes weve been discussing. T todays hearings operating on american rails and not others. Thank you very much andi have another question for the panel. In 2021 the report from freddie mac demonstrated that homes in black and hispanic neighborhoods are more likely to receive appraisals of value below the ones that are in majoritywhite neighborhoods. After taking into account the disparate home and neighborhood qualities racial biases lead to the valuation of homes in majority black neighborhoods at 23 percent less than those in other neighborhoods with fewer or no black residents. Many of the banks use an alternative appraisals like automated valuation models as a means of reducing the prevalence of the impact of appraisals for bias i want to say this to you. In a lot of day, and ill use terrified in the area in florida. To break it down a little bit , i need to hurry up because of high run out i want to recognize you, in the area of tallahassee and florida many of the young graduates coming out of school seem to go into black neighborhoods to try to rebuild but they have a problem because the banks dont want to finance those mortgages and say go someplace else so to speak and that way you can improve the community. Are you all using any alternative valuation models for appraisals so that the young ones coming out of that community would be able to get mortgagefinancing . Also the to that. We use models, alternative sources of payments where we see past rental payments and so forth. Its easier to do when we own the mortgage and equity in that case than it is to do inside of theo fannie, freddie or jenny may programs. Okay, with that madam chair i yield back. Thank you very much. The gentleman from ohio misterdavidson is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chairwoman, thanks to our witnesses and my colleagues. I appreciate having this hearing. Years ago we saw large banks adopt a policy of refusing cash deposit. Is accepting cash deposits on liability and if so is it more of a market risk or a Regulatory Bank secrecy risk . Anyone . Mister diamond . Your reminding me of something from years ago. I do believe it was a Regulatory Risk and i think cash deposits are particularly interesting. Mister shark. I dont have anything to add. So the regulators have intimidated the banks, megabanks as my chairwoman likes to refer to you all to the point where no one will even speak about taking cash. Our permission was payments a risk to the Financial System . Permissions like cash, like i can give a person cash whether its cash or some form of electronic payment, is it permission was peertopeer transaction some sort ofthreat to the Financial System . No. Thats good to hear, i was getting a little nervous and its hard because a lot of people still deal in cash. We talk about people that dont necessarily use your bank for the barriers to people using the Financial Sector at any size or scale , theres still transacting in the cash economy. And as people become more nervous about frankly whether its government or this surveillance capitalism and the idea that Everybody Needs to know everything about every transaction and everyone else, weve got a couple colleagues who are passionate about Digital Identity, basically youve got a odbackground check somebody to even talk to them. People are kind of opting out of that and choosing cash. I think its a big factor in the crypto space. Just by showing hands, does your bank cause custody any Crypto Assets for any level of client . Not much. So not much change there. There are a lot of regulatory challenges that have made that hard as well and it certainly weve worked some of us have for years to remedy that. Our financial markets, we are home to about five percent of the world by relation, almost 25 percent of the worlds gdp but 50percent of the world invested capital and Capital Markets. Unfortunately in the crypto space roughly 70 percent of the liquidity is offshore and i think thats a burden forthis body in congress to provide regulatory clarity. And i would note that i guess hesitancy for titans of industry, people in the Financial Sector little or literally at the top of the sector to address these issues and i think the concern when we look at regulators , how the power of the regulators have over the sector, frankly one i think was a win of sorts was not seeing homero confirmed for the office of comptroller currency. No one made President Biden nominator or senator Sherrod Brown give her high praise and try to get her confirmed. But shes someone who described herself as radical and had fundamentally different views on the Banking Industry going so far as to suggest the Federal Reserve or postalservice should be a Retail Banking outlet. Mister diamond, do folks that have no industry experience and only Academic Experience have a hard time understanding soundness and risk in the private sector . I would love to see the Federal Reserve be in the Retail Banking business and running call centers and ee operating centers and atmsand branches and hiring and all that kind of stuff. I would love to see more people not academics and lawyers and economists and a lot of jobs in washington dc. Its a great quote in Theory Practice and theorythe same, in practice there not. I think the country could benefit from Something Like that. I think theres a study that showed that median years of private experience in the Biden Administration is zero. So hopefully the next few years changes that. This rsmiss razor i have a few moments left. Your bank does a lot with sanctions as to all of yours but looking atthe international aspects. Someone please mute. When you look at the opportunity to improve that, the way that the system is done causes a little bit of Collateral Damage for domestic companies, do you have any ideas on how we can reformat and if you cant finish your answer could you pleasesomething to our office about your experience . It would involve international collaboration. Thank you. We should have time for more corrections and information. However we must move on. The gentleman from North Carolina mrs. William adams is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you madam chair and thank you for holding todays hearing. I am particularly glad to see some folks from back home, charlie shaw from wells and bill rogers from truest and Brian Monahan from bank of america, thank you all for being here and everyone else as well. I did want to get right to it and i like to ask you to keep your remarks around 30 seconds so we can hear from everyone and this question is to each of the witnesses. As you all may know i am founder and cochair of the bipartisan hvc caucus and even student cvc we felt secure historic wins for black colleges universities, so im grateful that several of you here today have taken out our partnership challenge. Some of you like truest have endorsed that signature legislation to ignite hvc you excellence act. Thank you for doing that. This by the way is hvc you we and the White House Initiative is pushing that as well. But my question is i iswant to know directly and please be detailed as much as you can, what is your longterm plan to engage with, support and breakthroughs from hbcus and how do you evaluate the excellence ofyour external records and internal Pipeline Program so mister sharp lets start with you. Thank you congresswoman and thank you to your leadership. Its hard work and we are proud to be part of a lot of your leadership. The hbcus for us are just incredibly important relationship and its multi fold. From the things that we do to support the hbcus to the things we get out of the hbcus including the broadbased talent and locations across the country and weve just had outstanding experience with some of the senior folks across the company who are products of the hbcu system so hopefully what we will look at is the success factor that we have in keeping the folks that we bring on from the hbcu and ultimately the level of seniority and suscope of the roles that they carry. Let me move on to rogers. Add i want to really keep it to 30 seconds if you can. Thank you for your great leadership in this area as well. Certainly where winvesting and weve invested as much as 20 million recently in hbcus in terms of direct investment but also in the important work we do in hiring hbcu graduates and we committed to increase our hiring of graduates and then working on using the resources that we have in our company and as you participated in our Leadership Institute using it to help educate and provide leadership training in the community and things like the tech summit which we supported together so using our own resources and working in partnership i think is whats important. Mister diamond. Sorry, didnt hear you. Ive have been with hbcu for 30 years. We recruited for, weve now recruited 20. We help grow them and we hire a lot fof their kids and would tell anyone, if you want the talent is unbelievable. Ive been to 67 now, extraordinary talent and my advice to anyone who is looking for young black kids want to be successful go to hbcus if you think you can find a. Mister fraser. Thank you for the question. I think my other colleagues around the table are on the panel today, were very proud to be welcoming the hbcus. Our cfo at city is the vice chair and puts tremendous passion into making sure that we have group of programs to build in and recruit and grow and develop the talent that twe bring in and i think similar to what youve heard today, its wonderful talent. And were proud to get that opportunity in our company the benefits of the company as much as the individual. Thank you maam. Mister monahan we got a few more seconds. Along with the hiring that we have continued to increase across time along with the fiscal support of contributions to the hbcus and balanced budgets for helping build the amount which is 25 million over the n last few years. On top ofthat other thing weve done is create an entrepreneurialcenter between the two. Which gets them to Work Together is kind of interesting but were able to create an entrepreneurial center. Out of ologize, im time and we will bewatching madam chair, iyelled back. Thank you for all the work you do. We appreciate that. And proof of the pudding is in the eating. Thank you. The gentleman from ohio Mister Gonzales is now recognized for five minutes. Going to do a little macro micro. Mister diamond youve been outspoken about the state of the economy, Global Economy and its some of your concerns im going to find a soft landing for the purposes of this as a mild recession with limited Financial Stability risk, hard landing as to 2 corners with heightened stability risk. So keep that in mind. From a policy standpoint, what are you most concerned about or what do you believe needs to happen to avoid the hard landing scenario. I think the sooner that the Federal Reserve gets a handle on inflation so we avoid stagflation, that is the worst outcome is inflation with no growth and unemployment and that hurts the most people and businesses. Second its to make sure we have a secure Energy Policy that oil prices dont skyrocket. Energy is precarious. If we see it once 50 it will cause a global recession. How confident are you in thefeds ability to do that west and mark. Im keeping my fingers crossed. Me too. In the event of a hhard landing where you believe the economy is most vulnerable from a Financial Stability standpoint. The consumer going into risk recession should be compared to over eight and09. Businesses in rather good shape. Youll see a fairly traditional effect on stability. I dont thinkthats the issue. The real issue is global stability related to ukraine and china and on more forwardlooking. The financial industry here needs a hard landing. I agree with you and this is a comment now for everybody. I agree with you on the china piece for sure. I would encourage your banks to be a lot more thoughtful about the role that you all play in facilitating chinese economy. They rely on you us Capital Markets to further their economy. We know that they are no friend of ours and when you talk about global stability, its russia and china that are opposing the greatest threats by far and i dont believe its even close. I want to switch to you. Get back to the consumer. So your retail customers how do you feel they are today from a health standpoint and then in the event of a hard landing what are you most concerned about on that retail level. If you look at the consumer standpoint today they have more money in their accounts. They have Borrowing Capacity less, the Unemployment Rate is low. Working against them are inflation and price increases that part of that increase and also unemployment and at the end of the day, the question is can the fed tighten strongly enough to choke off inflation without creating such high levels of unemployment. Thats the discussion, the probability of a hard landing in soft landing and we all hope the balance can restore the system but it needs to be restored because right now its not in proper balance after the last couple of years ewamong the economic stimulus and the last couple of things. The consumer is spending more september than they did last september and they have multiples of money in their accounts and their employed and are earning more so now its okay. The question is what happens and thats alwaysgoing to come down to if theyre working they will be fine. No matter what home a half, car, home, credit card, if theyre working there fine and the issue is to get labor markets to the less tight youre going to have to work on i, if the fed knows unemployment is going to rise , to not have a go too far. Thats definitionally the hard landing. The only tool the fed has is to destroy demand which would drive inflation up or im sorry, unemployment up and put the consumer at more tris. Mister diamond back to you for one final macro question. The fed has a dual mandate, maximum employment, stable prices. Do you have an opinion on whether the dual mandate is appropriate or would they consider moving us to stable prices . I would say its appropriate but it should be monitored. With that i yield back. Thank you very much. At this time we will take a brief recess. Madam chair, green from texas. Unanimous consent request. Such isthe order. I have a special purchase Credit Program question id like to submit to all the members of the panel. Rc without objection. We will take a brief f recess to allow members to vote on the house floor. We will resume immediately following votes. And let me just say to all of the witnesses i appreciate us your patience with the work that were doing today. You may want to take the time to grab lunch. H. The committee will stand in recess. Coming up we will hear more from the ceos from the countrys six largest banks as they continue testifying before the house Financial Services committee on regulatory and oversight matters and the Banking Industry. And the next portion we will hear more questions dealing with crypto currency, cyber, hiring practices and inflation. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government funded by these Television Companies and more including wow. The world has changed. Today fast reliable Internet Connection is something no one can live without allow is there for our customers with the, reliability, value and choice. Now more than everit all starts with great internet. Wow supports cspan as a Public Service along with these othertelevision providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. 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This third and last part of the house hearing of ceos from the countries six largest banks