Next up from last weekends Rancho Mirage writers festival, panel on National Security. Ill probably lose the hall in next hour. Are we allowed to start . Okay. Usually theres adult supervision around that tells you what to do. It is always a great pleasure to moderate a panel at a writers festival because youre dealing with men and women of incredible accomplishment. Who have done journalism, literature, of unusually high quality. And amazingly theyre very articulate at speaking about what theyve done. Ike going to be self indill self indulgent. I have never been in the presence of a medal of honor recipient, and jack, its a true honor to be with you. Jack is one of those individuals who was willing to saddle up and ride to the sound of gunfire and serve our country. He is one of 75 recipients living, and over the years had gatherings of men such as jack, he was with eddie ricken walker, jimmy doolittle, audi murphy. Its quite remarkable. [applause] lets set off. I dont know if you have been watching the news this morning. Enhave i you if you have not. But there are consequencal event taking place in regards to the immigration policies of the administration, which are confused, and i dont say that critically but its hard to figure out exactly what theyre doing, and how various people are responding. But there is a process where over the next four weeks, four months, whatever it may be, there will be a halt on people entering this country in certain categories from conflict countries. And its resulted inevitably and perhaps predictably with some awkward circumstances. But its provoked widespread demonstrations. Last night, bret gave a really marvelous talk about immigration. [applause] and i bret has agreed in the last 45 seconds to sort of reprise what he said in context of what seems to be going on this morning. And then larry and tim are going to talk about this aspect of National Security as it is expressed in immigration policy, and then douglas is going to speak to the history of this kind of activity in our country. And jack and i will not get involved in this one. So, lets make it reasonably brief. Bret, can we hear from you . Well, the state of play as of this morning, which i was able to check oh. Can you hear me now . No. Were getting things set up. All right. Ill just speak loudly and then burst your eardrums when they fix it. As of this morning the order that the president gave yesterday at around 4 00 in the afternoon, has been revised so that greencard holders from some of the countries, the seven countries thank you the seven countries affected may now sorry. Am i speaking to loudly now . No. Oh, okay. Can hear me. Youre good. Sorry about that. We now have a revised order which at least permits the greencard holders from the countries with entry if theyre legal residents and my wife is a greencalled hold sore i hope she will be able to travel in and out of to the country freely. We still have a Standing Order that put as moratorium for 120 days on citizens from seven countries, from entering the United States, and there is an permanent ban as far as i can tell when it comes to citizens from syria. Last night, a u. S. District judge in brooklyn stayed the order in order to allow those visitors who were already in the United States at kennedy airport, from coming into the country, that happened in part not only thanks to thanks to ths order bud protests at airports throughout the country, and im beginning to suspect from a political point of view that to quote the wonderful phrase, what the president did was worse than a crime. It bus a blunder. One thing americans will not stand for is additionally long lines and traffic jams at airports. Well take all kinds of other things lying down but not that. But the larger question, i think ill sum up here the larger question i think doesnt isnt really about this order per se. Its about how we good about conceiving of what security is and how important we feel maintaining baseline American Values is to the longterm broader maintenance of american security. It was one item i thought was interesting was that immediately after the president s order the Iraqi Parliament banned americans from traveling to the United States from traveling to iraq. I hadnt been planning a vacation in flu fallujah but you never know. But this hays consequences so we have to think of security in some broader and deeper and more sophisticated by than simply placing a blanket ban on countries are terror producing. When you think another terror incident inside United States in recent year have come from people born in the United States with american passports. The tsarnaev brothers in 2013, who came over here as infants. Omar mateen in orlando. At least farook, the half of the San Bernardino killings and the young man who blew up a bomb on 23rd street came over here as a young child. Sew ought to think care carefully about the idea that putting up further barricades as u. S. Entry points in fact makes us more secure. Larry . Whats your sense of this kind of security preparation . Well, when we talk about the panel, how to make us safe again, more fundment question is, are we in danger . And from muslims, as bret has pointed out, the truth is not very much danger. About 120 americans have been killed by muslim terrorists at 9 11 compared to hundreds of thousand holiday. People that have died from other causes and gangs and just domestic violence. So, its a small portion. Yet the level of fear and anxiety that surrounds this issues totally outsized. And the Muslim Community in america is a very successful one. It is on average has a higher level of education and makes about the same level of income at every stage, is far less likely than the average american to go to prison, and compare that to europe, france, for instance, where about 10 of the population is muslim. 60 of the prisoners are. So, whats the difference between that country and america . And why is europe in my opinion, in such peril right now, and america has been comparatively safe . And i think the difference can be spelled out with to a single word which is alienation. If you are a young muslim on the outskirts of paris and the name for a child born in women jump is mew ham of in belgium is mow ham ted met. If youre a kid who is told, youre not one of us, who are you . How do you identify yourself . Its not surprising given the degree of alienation that win someone says who are you, they respond, i am a muslim, and then they good to the mosque and find other alienated young men who feel the same way, and then the begin to radicalize. Thats dangerous, and so if we begin to ailentate our own very successful immigrant community, to the degree that we see in europe, then were asking for the same kinds of problems that europe now endures. Thank you. Tim. [applause] thank you. Almost exactly one week ago to the hour, President Trump went to the Central Intelligence agency, a building that some of us are familiar with and have stood in its lobby, and as you walk in on the righthand side wall there are 117 stars representing 117 men and women of the cia who have died in the line of duty. Trump stood with his back to that wall. On the facing wall looking down on him engraved in great guild letter is john 8 32 and ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free. Trump cooperate see that because as walked into the room, everyone stood if you saw a photograph from that youll notice that the first two rows remained standing throughout the speech because trump, ignorant of protocol, never said, please be seated. And im going to use a crib sheet to quote from some things he said. Okay. The Trump Campaign is being investigated by the Central Intelligence agency and the fbi. You know that. Right . It is. For its ties to the vladimir putin. Trump in return has compared the cia to the nazis. To the gestapo. That is not a fine how do you do . To get to know one another. So trump stands up and says he doesnt talk about the honor of serving your country. Doesnt talk about patriotism. He doesnt talk about sacrifice. He talks about trump. And he says, probably everybody in this room voted for me. I would guarantee a big portion because were all on the same wave length. Well, if so, thats a very broad band. Donald trump says, im a smart people. Feel like im 35, 35, 39. Aisle young. Trump is 70. Did everybody see the speech in trump is talking best hi inaugural. Men meanwhile a half of mean people are watch neglect streets of washington, one holding a sign saying, i was born in 199. I dont want to die in 1950. I think that gets to the point of where im headed. If youre in audience, youre an intelligence officer, and you live in a world of facts where facts are a matter of life and death. And information is power. And the United States has spent trillions of dollars the past 70 years sense the cia was contracted under the National Security act of 1947, trying to keep america safe by gathering intelligence, which is secret information, about what is going on in the world. The president now has the power of life and death, using the cia and he military. Folk get about the nuclear codes. He has power over killer drones, spy satellites, electronic eaves dropping, covert operations. He can listen in on anyone in the world. And he is saying to the cia talking about iraq the cia has fought many a battle in iraq and trump is saying he wants to win. Were going to start winning again. Youre going to be leeing the charge. To she victor month the spoils. We kept the oil you want have isis because thats where hey made their money so we should have kept he oil put maybe well have another chance you think they want too have another chance of unking iraq . Its that going to up occupyig iraq . Is that going to make america safe . Tim, we have to move didnt. Im going to sum up. What we are looking at is an attempt to undo every construct inside the last 70 years, including nato think National Security establishle and the structures of the post world war that kept america safe and prevented world war iii. Were headed into up charted waters with the medieval mapmakers wrote here lie monsters. Thank you, tim. Douglas, what can you talk to the American Experience and immigration and the fear or hostility that is accompanying it . Well to me, very sad that since we have been here to book festival, that our symbol of our country is the stam few of liberty some donald trump stripped the spotlight off the statue of liberty on this extraordinary antiimmigration posture i dont think is popular with the majority of the American People, antiimmigration, obviously, is not a new phenomenon and nate timism has been with us forever. In 19th century we had the nomichigan party and they were again mormons and catholics and jews and many people know the whole history of antisemitism inmer america, jim grow, big jim crow, bigotry. What is rising that Trump Movement is he made to it the white house. Lush i these figures are fringe people that do get bill followings george wallace, running as a thirdparty candidate and galvanized the south or Something Like strom thurmon. Ross perot got 19 of the vote in 1992 on an antiand a halfty sentiment. Joe mccarthy got big guys in the 1940s and 50s until edward r. Muir row went after him and u. S. Army went after him and eisenhower was able to handle the beast but mccarthy was tracking. But what is dangerous about donald trump is both his ability to use media modern media, social media, effectively enough to have gotten elected but the shock and awe strategy of the first week. He is acting as if he had a mandated election. Franklin roosevelt in 1932 had a mandate for the new deal hempen won the map of america. Massive landslide to go do something for great depression. Ronald reagan won a massive reagan revolution of 1980 and he really had a mandate. Donald trump is operating without a clear mandate. He lost the popular vote. He really only has at best 40 i think its going to be 35 of the American People backing his actions. Yet he has is unspooling, unraveling 70 years of American Foreign policy, American Values. I think to strike and banning the seven countries is going to be seen the antimuslim sentiment involved with and it the selection of christians may be okay, but muslims arent, is an ugly chapter in american history. With did native american genocide. Jim crow. Now scapegoats citizens in a frenzy of hate tritread against our fellow citizens and losing some of our stature in the world because of it. We can only hope that somehow trump, the protests against what is happening, is so great, not just the jfk airport and other places, that it will cause a correction in the Trump Administration, but he doesnt seem like the kind of leader that does corrections well. And so im afraid were going to be in for a very dark, brutal, tough year and it might play out in 2018 elections when the opposition could come in and maybe flood over the trump white house. Thank you. Last night, at [applause] indeed. At our session last night, we asked the colleagues for each of them to name a book that would benefit the president to read as he determined what ensured the advancement and security of the nation. I would be very appreciative if you five would individually come up with the name of the book that you would recommend to the president to read in the context of National Security, and in our last knew few minutes id like to you say the book and why the book would be so appropriate to the president. Lets go back as though this weekend did not happen. And talk about where the nation is in terms of security, and defense. And what is working and what is not working. Jack, you have been able to sit there and be at peace with the world. I always am. You spend a lot of time or are certainly familiar with the pentagon. Talk that out military is in a state of decline, at least financially and materially. What is in your opinion the status of the american military, particularly visavis the russians and chinese. We are about to have the small els we have become enfamiliarorred over technology. Were in an environment where we can decide whether to send a precision guided munition up the left or the right nostril of somebody and feel we can do just about anything with technology. The result of that is that we decided that were thing to focus on technology and hardware and the software that goes with is, and were not going to spend very much time on people, and i can tell you from experience, that its relatively easy to take objectives, particularly if you have overwhelming fire power, but the end of the day its much more difficult to hold on objectives because that in the end takes people. If you want to save money, which is what we have been trying to do in a. Environment in which hardware costs an enormous pile of money. Youve cancelled programs today you want save money today. If you cancelled most programs today it would cost you more to cancel a program in the near years and you wouldnt save any money until the out area years. But if you want to save money right now the easiest way is to get rid of people because you save money instantly. That is what were doing. And my concern is that we may be able to take objectives, assuming we have the capable and even defining what objectives we want to take, but we aint going to be able to hold on to them and we have seen the same thing happen on both the tactical and strategic basis back to the war in which i fought, and i could tell you a story about that but sufficient identify to sigh jack, i love an anecdote. One briefly. In 1972 i was with the Vietnamese Airborne Division on top a hill and 600 meet ever us away would hill we were supposed to take. We thought there was a company, maybe 150, 160 enemy on top of it. Because we didnt have the intelligence capability we have today, we didnt know that there was a regiment minus on top of the hill, about 1200 enemy soldiers. To make a long story short we attacked the hill, we lost 47 killed going up the hill and another 30 or 40 wounded but finally got on top of the hill. Now what do you do when you have taken the objective in you held to hold the objective. To paraphrase signfeld. You now oh to take the reservation, just dont know how to hold the reservation, and holding it is what is all about. What the higher level command was supposed to do was to use its reserves to reinforce success, for two reasons, to bail you out of failure, and to reinforce success. They didnt do that. Two days later we were counterattacked by 2,000 enemy, who drove us back to where we started from two days before in the process, we lost another 30 or 40 killed. Another 50 guys wounded when we got back to where we started from we were completely and totally combat ineffective and last ant entire battalion, achieving nothing. Except the loss of lots of good soldiers and the principle reason for this failure is that we didnt understand that its Human Capital the end of the day that is necessary in or to hold on to your objectives in a tactical situation. We have forgotten that and we forget it all the time. No just in use of military but on our other uses of instruments of power, in government generally, and in our permanent life personal lives, in business, and we do so at our great peril. Im very much concerned about the decreasing size of the services because the end of the day, even assuming we can idea what we want to do and thats a whole separate subject. Im not con ven wed no know what were trying to accomplish. We wouldnt be able to hold on to the objective once we seize it. Thank you, jack. [applause] lets go to the issue that jack has raised as to whether or not were really clear about what our goals are. And maybe what our enemy is or may be. Too you want to speak to that . Well, first, you just heard the history of the vietnam war in five minutes, which is quite an accomplishment. Well, thank you. Thats only because it happened over and over and over again. Thats right. My field i love is american intelligence and intelligence touches everything, the military, diplomacy, interNational Security, and were not very good at it. We only started out in 1947. Just under 70 squeezer ago. The russians have been at it since peter the great. The british have been at it since Queen Elizabeth i and the chinese have been at it since the art of war was written and he summed um intelligence in three words, even more than colonel sum up the vietnam war. Know your enemy. In order to know your enemy, you have to talk to him, and in order to talk to your enemy, you need spies. You need what they call human intelligence. You need somebody who speaks the language of your enemy, which might be arabic, push tune, chinese, and you need that person to be able to move through the bazaars of the streets, where your enemyses and blend in. And if you look like you just got off the bus from kansas, and youre a white guy, and you dont speak arabic, youre going to lose. Youre not going to know your enemy. That is the essence that is the essential element of intelligence, is to know your enemy, and we dont. We create them willynilly because fear is not a good starting point to do rigorous strategic analysis of where you stand in the world. If this president succeeds in what he seems to be setting out to do, which is to tear down the structures of american intelligence, including the National Security council, breaking news we are going to be acting blindly. You need intelligence if you are projecting your power beyond your borders to help you sew over the horizon 0, have foresight, nor knowledge, to tell the with whates going on and if with cant wasnt to listen and is says my mind is made up, dont confuse me with facts, people are going to die. Thank you, tim. What lawrence i was saying to him i was on an airplane several years ago when his bang on al qaeda cake out, or and the history of radical islam, and i came back from the head and looked out, there were 16 seats in section of the plane, and three of them were reading his book. I was, too. So we constituted nearly 50 of the people on the plane were reading your book. Who is our enemy . You remember the old come struck, pogo . There was a famous quotation during vietnam, which was we have met the enemy and he is us. We have made so many blunders in our own lifetimes its embarrassing to look back at. The series of terrible misstacks, starting with vietnam, we have gotten into situations, into cultures we didnt understand, in with objectives that were unclear or impossible to achieve, and then left them. Left chaos in our wake, and i think if you think about colonel was talking about vietnam, losers 58,000 men and maybe three million vietnamese killed, again and again we have i think we took away a terrible lesson from vietnam because i think a lot about the refugees and after vietnam, we brought in 175,000 vietnamese who we needed to protect, and that was a noble thing to do, and then that was followed by the boat people. Now we have a million vietnamese in our country, who are very successful immigrant community, and i think one lesson we drew from vietnam was, we can go have a little war, leave this ruinous state and it will be all right. Well have some vietnamese they will be shrimp farmers and everything is going to tournament right. Get restaurants. Iraq is not the same story. Bret, if these gentleman are correct, why is our you should speak to this, too douglas. Why is our country incapable of a longrange vision or a accumulation of knowledge which would keep us out of these troughs that they imply . Is there something unique to us, to our government, or are we dealing with a unique world that is unprecedented and, therefore, virtually impossible to deal with . Well, let me start by saying, i dont want to say exception but a offering a different view. We do have enemies. Radical islamic jihadis our enemies and theyre out to kill us. And [applause] its personality to recognize its not its important to recognize its jut not a funning of our own ineptness or mistakes or blunders of mesh policies. American policies. That is a committed world view and you go back to writing of the kind of godfather of al quite, he come to United States in 1940s and sees nothing but sin and degradation and thats the genesis of this one of the one genesis of this war against us. Vladimir putin is an enemy of the United States, and its donald trump has not figure that out yet and he will very, very soon. And we have to take him seriously. You talk about the helpingry kissinger has a wonderful line in which he says the challenge of american statesmanship is to find some middle course thats going to cause a disastrous in american policy between overcommitment and isolationism, and the argument of my book, the poster american retreat, which is still marvelous, is host let me say all those books are marvelous. Go ahead. But is to make the forthright case for pox americana. In 1947 and 1948, the United States came up with not only the bureaucratic instrument structures and intellectual for framework how to deal with the world. But is a world in which the United States as a benign a benign hegemon or leading power, assumes a man tell for maintaining the mantle for maintaining the global common, for giving sucker to endangered outposts of freedom from west berlin to tie one and south korea that stands up deterrence against aggressive and revision ist regime where its its foreigns norms like Chemical Attacks by al say sad and the norm has serves remarkably well. We complain but we are an extraordinary country, richer that than ever before. The other side of pox american americana, the argue that my opponent intel intellectually in the book that is the american first isolationism that has now been proclaimed as the policy of the United States, and even if you strip the american first term from the antisemitic connotations to which charles behindburg and others attached to it its still a view of the worlds in which america and the rest of the world are in the zero sum game, we win and they lose or vice versa. The only kind of strategy that will work is be mind as many people and many countries to or colors, ideology, as we and can by ideologically, i mean free and open societies that believe that every person from every creed as an equal right to participate in the kinds of moral goods we offer our society. Finish with this clinton said theres not that is wrong in america that cant be fixed by what i right in america. And its a great line, and its i think also true in terms of our predicament this weekend with what is happening at our airports. [applause] one thing we all share is we all want too see isis destroyed, and i think back to when i studied cold war history. We used to read a book by john lewis good atis, called strategies of containment and each administration from truman to george h. W. Bush struggled how to contain soviet expansionism, how too we win the cold war, but we make mistakes and i mean i think barack obama we underappreciated some of the things obama was able to do. Killing of osama bin laden, which is a great success. He started trying to do drones, attacks so we dont put sucked into a more another iraq, afghanistan, moreas with our troops. He did make a mistake in the red line in the sand in sear you sear you but he at any time send our troops willy grill into sear syria. I want donald trump to succeed and i want to see isis destroyed but dont want a third world war. Im worried about the generals surrounding donald trump. Me, too. Its because mattis is a great man, and flynn is a good man, and kelly is a good man, but you dont want to blindly just listen to the generals and the successful president s know that. But donald trump doesnt read president ial history. We mention last night different mcculloughs book on truman. Truman knew when to fire mcarthur during the careeran war when macour their was doing overreach. Didnt know the limits of american intervention. John f. Kennedy knew how to tell the generals, no. When curtis lamay not going to go and bomb berlin when the wall was going up weapon dont want a third world war in europe. So my hope is that the Trump Administration has cautionary figures because we all want to get isis but donald trump, as you see from iter is empet tours and lives in the eternal now. Want to do this and the world is complicated, and to just have somebody doing hairtrigger things without seeing the consequences is to me the frightening thing about the transition were going through right now. Let me just jump in here. [applause] this clock is moving at an incredibly rapid rate. Jack, i think people are impressed by the generals that are surrounding the new president. It appears from what i read in the media. What is your sense of them . And how are they going to respond if trump is as impulsive and ignorant has is a critics juror, publicly several of them have disaggrieved with things that President Trump has said and said when he was candidate. So, i think one can have some degree of confidence the end of the day they are going to feel empowered by having survived that, and give their best advice to trump, and to the extent that trump doesnt take it, will not obey an order that is immore or illegal. So i have some confidence that general flynn never went through a confirmation, right . And he is right there next to trump. Thats why he is in that job because we didnt have to good through confirmation. Left me tell you this, i dont know general flynn but i know many of the other generals, including the secretary of defense, and i can tell you that at some juncture there well be some heads butting and the end of the day the people who will prevail, assuming theres some conflict between people who dont know what theyre doing and people who do know what theyre doing, the people who do know what theyre doing will prevail. [applause] now, you two guys, real quick, like a minute, how too you think trump is going to relate to the cia and the fbi . I think that he is in trouble. I think that i think that trump is in legal trouble. Cant hear you. Can you hear new now . Yes. I think trump is in real legal trouble. And to theyre investigating him for reasons, and just so many thing that are in his past and also the conflicts he has engage i in right now with his own bonuses. This is a man in a morass of difficult difficult and the agencies leading this are the two intelligence agencies. The fbi and the cia, they are going to be on his trail, and its difficult to contain donald trump. We all know that. But if he does get ensnared in the legal process, its going to be a really difficult thing for him to escape. One minute, tim, well, richard nixn took the oath of office when way was under investigation are by the fbi. Donald trump took the office of office for his first inaugural while he was under the fbi and the cia and the Intelligence Community for the ties between his campaign and kremlin. That is unprecedented in american history. When you take the oath of office, youve swear to defend the constitution, and to protect it and this nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We have always had enemies. That oath was written a long time ago. And i would quote colin powell on this subject. He said about ten years ago, no terrorist can destroy this country. No terrorist can destroy our constitution. Only we can do that to ourselves. Host thank you, tim. [applause] bret, you want well be finished in a minute or two. Are you optimistic . I was hoping you would ask me the book recommendation. Yeah. Whats that . Lets go to the book list. Recommended reading for the future. Okay, the books. Start down there. Theres a i used to collaborate with a guy name hoops and he wrote a book called the rims of intervention on the vietnam war and he worked for the defense department. And saw the problems of trying to destroy the enemy in vietnam and how it ended up destroying ourselves by in the 60s protests and the anti. War movements. We were ripping at each other, doves and hawks. A good book for donald trump to read and also not very along, 50 pages. Jack and. Doris kearns good wins team ofs of rivals. Assuming he could good to the screened, i recommend abook called at home the world a collection of the front page story biz my late colleague, daniel pearl. And i would recommend it first of all because even two days after many of thesterses are written theyre rich, relevant, wonderful tribute to not only danny but the great newspaper that published him, but more than that i would like him to see what means when journalists, who keeps calling despicable, lying et cetera, but their lives on the line to bring ordinary readers the truth of what is happening whereafter from the balkins to iran to south asia and pakistan, where he died. And the demonization of journalists and my profession which is going on is i think me one of the more bat thursdaying happening and i say to audience, please keep your faith in an institution that is necessary for liberty. The march of fally by barbara tuckman. Particulars the move of folly deliberate acts of the leader against the interests of the stake. Why did the trojans take in the horse . Folly. Why were we in vietnam . Folly. It is a history of six episodes in western civilization where leaders led their nation into disaster. And a warning against misrule. Thank you. Well, its an old book but i think ill it still has current si, emily post on etiquette. [applause] [laughter] i just want to say real quick, we know him as an author but in austin, texas, he is greatly respected for putting a statue or ensuring a statue was in downtown austin of willie nelson, and thats a contribution. I want to say thank you for being so patient. Its been a great panel and thank you for being here. [applause] [inaudible conversations] ladies and gentlemen, please take all of our monthings with belongings with you because were going to clean the room. [inaudible conversations] the Rancho Mirage writers festival continues with a discuss about the boycott, divest. And Sanction Movement now on booktv. You are both well known to everyone here so cant hear you. Youre both known to everyone here. Better . So lets get right with it. Our subject today is bds and antisemitism on college campuses. Pds, boycott, divest and sanction. The bds mom is based on the premise that israel is an aapartheid country. Permeates offering they publish, everything poster they print, even the protective wall that has been built referred to as the apartheid wall. So i thought it would be worthwhile to turn to very brief excerpt from something written by Justice Richard robert goldstone, 0 who in the past has certain by been quite prepared to be critical of israel on occasion. Keep in mind that he is the individual who is generally credited with being the person who brought down apartheid from within, the South African government. Man appoint bid Nelson Mandela to the Supreme Court, and of course he was the first prosecutor of the International Criminal court. His negotiations. I know the cruelty of the apartheid system. In israel there is no apartheid. Nothing comes close to the definition under the 1998 rome statute. The Israeli Arabs in the population vote have Political Parties and representatives in the occupied positions of acclaimed including on its Supreme Court receiving identical treatment. What is it about. Thats antisemitism